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theater ensemble work I think teaches young kids

1:01

and children that it's not about competition, it's about

1:03

collaboration. It's really about working

1:06

together in order to find a result that

1:08

we can all support,

1:12

you know? And I

1:14

think that's why I love improv also too so

1:16

much because it just taps into that

1:19

inner being, that place that we kind of tend

1:21

to lock away when we get older because of fear

1:23

of rejection or judgment. Improv

1:25

gets to open us up if we're open, right,

1:28

to

1:28

it.

1:42

Hello, hello, and welcome back

1:45

to the Meta Hour podcast with

1:48

Sharon Salzberg. I'm

1:50

Lily Cushman. I produce

1:52

this wonderful podcast. Today

1:54

we have episode 219 and we're continuing on with…

2:00

the Real Life Series in celebration

2:02

of Sharon's new book by

2:05

the same name. Sharon

2:07

is speaking today

2:08

with the wonderful Joelle

2:10

Leon. Joelle is someone

2:12

who has made several appearances

2:15

on the podcast before today's

2:18

interview

2:18

was actually part of the Living

2:21

an Authentic Life Summit that

2:23

happened earlier in 2023 that

2:26

was

2:27

part of Sharon's book launch. And

2:29

this recording took place on day

2:31

three of the summit which was

2:34

exploring the theme of expansion,

2:36

openness,

2:36

curiosity,

2:39

connection. So that's

2:42

the theme for the whole conversation. There's

2:45

a lot here speaking about

2:48

community and the community in

2:50

particular for marginalized

2:52

and disenfranchised folks and

2:56

the exploration of love in

2:58

the realm of activism, facing

3:01

trauma, and a lot

3:03

of the practices of gratitude and

3:06

saying yes that Joelle integrates

3:08

into his daily life.

3:11

And Joelle shares deeply about

3:13

his experience of being

3:15

an artist as a Black man and

3:18

how joy has become

3:20

a practice for him in his

3:22

work, in his life as a father

3:25

and a creator and a person. So

3:28

we're delighted to have Joelle back. Let's

3:31

dive into today's episode

3:34

Sharon

3:34

Salzberg and Joelle

3:37

Leon.

3:44

Hi and welcome back to the summit. I'm

3:46

Sharon Salzberg and I'm so happy to be

3:49

speaking today with my friend and ever

3:51

inspiring voice Joelle Leon. We'll

3:54

be hearing Joelle's perspective on today's theme

3:56

of expansion, those times

3:58

in our lives when we feel most expansive

4:01

and how to enhance them. Joel

4:03

is a performer, author, and storyteller,

4:06

born and raised in the Bronx, who

4:08

writes and tells stories for black people. He's

4:11

been featured in the Columbia Journal, BBC

4:13

News, Sirius XM,

4:15

Forbes, Insider, Medium, Philadelphia

4:19

Print Works, Belavity, and The Huffington

4:21

Post. He has spoken and performed

4:24

at the Apollo Theater, Joe's Pub,

4:27

Rockwood Music Hall, Columbia University,

4:29

NYU, and Webster Hall. He's

4:32

the author of a book about things I will tell

4:34

my daughter, and God Wears Do

4:36

Rags too, and a father to Lila

4:39

and West. So

4:42

I first found Joel. We met on

4:45

Twitter. We didn't really meet, but I found him. And

4:48

I was just like everything he wrote. I was retweeting

4:51

or I was liking, and I thought,

4:52

who is this guy? I don't know who

4:54

he is, you know? To

4:57

this day, we have not met in person. We've not

4:59

been in the same room, but I have

5:01

confidence that will happen. I'm

5:03

so happy to be talking

5:06

to you today, Joel. You've been on my podcast several

5:08

times, and here's a

5:11

new forum, and I really love you. We've

5:13

never even met in person. I love

5:15

you so much, man. I do. I'm so,

5:17

you know, it's like one of those things. I

5:21

had a really great conversation last night

5:23

with a friend of mine, Deja Riley. And

5:27

so much of the talk was about community, and

5:30

I'm so utterly grateful and thankful

5:32

for you inviting me

5:34

into your community. The love

5:36

is indeed reciprocal. I think you know that already. But

5:40

I'm in deep gratitude for

5:43

you, honestly. I talk about you all

5:45

the time. I'll be bragging about

5:47

you. You know Sherris Ellsberg? Yeah,

5:49

yeah. You know, that's

5:51

the homie. You know what

5:53

I'm saying? You're

5:56

a big deal. I appreciate you. Well,

5:58

thank you, and I appreciate you.

5:59

I wonder if you could share some with their

6:02

audience a little bit about the path that's led you

6:04

to who you are today. Someone

6:07

was asking me, like,

6:09

how did you learn this stuff? And I was

6:12

like, well, I say,

6:14

you know, I say, Tyler Baraka, I say Sharon Salzberg,

6:16

I say Sylvia Borstein, I

6:18

say, you know, like,

6:21

I think there are folks who

6:24

created a pathway for

6:28

mindfulness for me. And so

6:30

I think, I

6:33

don't know, you know, nature,

6:36

nurture, things, a little bit of both, you know,

6:38

like, I think

6:40

Linda T, my mom and my father, Charles

6:42

Lorenzo for

6:44

sometimes maybe not giving me

6:46

the language of the tools, but

6:50

their experiences grounding me,

6:52

I think, in a way that's allowed me to be

6:54

curious, you know, like, I think I've always

6:56

been really curious about the world

6:59

and wanting to ask questions. And

7:01

I think my art has really been the

7:03

big catalyst for more of that

7:05

inquiry, right, of like spirit and

7:08

work and love and those kind of being,

7:10

I think, like the north stars, if you will, for

7:13

how I try to show up in the work. You

7:15

know, even now I'm talking, I think, about

7:17

the first time you and I talk,

7:20

can you, my dog is eating soil right

7:22

now, by the way. Can you stop doing that? Get down from

7:24

there. Don't do that.

7:28

You know, I

7:31

remember like the sense

7:34

of like urgency I always felt and

7:36

I don't feel as urgent anymore.

7:38

And I think a lot of that is because of the practice, you

7:41

know, and art being part of that practice

7:43

and the constant reminder of like

7:46

being able to come back to whatever self,

7:49

you know, I'm identifying with at the time and

7:52

recognizing like how impermanent all of that

7:54

is. Like even the art is just like it's,

7:56

it's I'm just a vessel. And I think the more I've continued

7:59

to do the work.

7:59

more I realized that like, oh, it's whether

8:02

it's the music, whether it's the poetry, whether it's

8:04

like the conversations, it's really the vessel for

8:07

bridging the gaps for community, you know,

8:10

like a lot of it, it was just like it's you

8:13

being part of the practice and helping

8:15

that practice and me listening

8:17

and reading and just really being curious about

8:19

that. Like I don't know this and I want to know more

8:21

and trying to continue to do that as a journey.

8:24

You know, I mean, there's a lot more to that. You

8:26

know, a lot of this stuff. Like, I

8:28

think if I had to give like the overarching

8:31

story, that would be that. That's

8:33

great. So in my newest book

8:35

that's coming out, called Real

8:37

Life, explore how we can begin

8:39

to live more authentically, living

8:42

from places of contraction and isolation,

8:44

through expansion and openness.

8:46

And one thing I've often read of yours

8:49

is how our story gets to shift, how

8:51

it's not a set narrative we have to be pigeonholed

8:54

into. And what does this look like

8:56

in your life? And

8:57

how has it brought you into more expansive expression

9:00

of yourself? That's a beautiful

9:02

question. I think, you know,

9:04

people used to call me wishy washy.

9:07

Because, you know, I'd be into something

9:09

and then like, I changed my mind, and I even changed my

9:11

mind. I've been very much

9:15

going with the flow, kind of, but more

9:17

about like, what what feels right for my

9:20

spirit, you know, like, I think about

9:22

the seasonality of art a lot.

9:24

And so there are seasons where

9:26

I am more, more of

9:28

a poet,

9:29

than I am like a rapper, or there are more

9:31

seasons, at least in the past, where I was

9:33

more of like a thespian than

9:35

I was like an essayist, you know,

9:37

they would all today sometimes those things would all

9:40

share space together, simultaneously,

9:42

depending on what my capacity was. But

9:44

like, I've just paid attention

9:46

to the shift, like we're all pivoting. And I think the

9:49

more rigid

9:51

I think the more I realized, like the more rigid

9:53

I got in those stances of like, Oh, well, I have

9:55

to do it this way. And it has to be this way.

9:57

And I have to make art in this way. the

10:00

less productive the art was, the less

10:02

intentional it was, and the less magical

10:04

it was, you know? And so I

10:06

think for me, you know, it's

10:10

from being curious and I'm paying attention, right?

10:12

Then I can look at nature as like a guiding principle

10:15

too, right, like

10:17

the seasons exist for a reason.

10:19

And so I think I've trusted

10:21

that in my art practice and that art practice,

10:24

which is essentially like

10:26

my life practice, right? I

10:28

don't believe really in like compartmentalizing

10:31

those things, like they all kind of live in tandem

10:33

with each other, they feed each other, you know? So

10:36

I think for me, the

10:39

more that I saw that, the

10:41

real harmony was in being able to just pay

10:43

attention to like how those waves went

10:46

as opposed to trying to force them to be anything

10:48

else, the more

10:50

harmonious I felt, the more peace I

10:52

felt, you know, like this is the most peaceful I

10:54

think I've ever felt in my entire

10:57

life.

10:58

And part of that is because I'm not striving

11:00

anymore. There used to be a lot of like, I

11:02

need to get this thing, this thing, and then I would get these

11:04

things and then just as always more things,

11:07

you know?

11:08

And I think the

11:10

shifting for me has just been like, oh,

11:12

okay, it doesn't,

11:14

I don't have to stay in one place, you

11:16

know, because nothing stays in one place. And if I'm

11:18

in harmony with like life and the existence

11:20

and being in nature, then I get to move around

11:22

too. I get to be this thing

11:25

one day and be another thing. And

11:27

that's okay, because like, that's my truth. You

11:29

know, it might not be somebody else's truth, but it's my, you

11:31

know? Yeah, that's beautiful.

11:34

You know, I had this funny memory when you were speaking, because

11:37

speaking to you from Barry, Massachusetts and

11:40

next door through the forest little ways is

11:43

the Insight Meditation Society. Oh,

11:45

wow. You know, many years

11:47

ago, Norman Fisher came to

11:49

visit us. He was the abbot

11:52

of the Zen Center in San Francisco. And

11:54

so it was this hugely prestigious

11:57

role and, you

11:58

know, very important in the Bruce. community

12:00

and

12:01

he also was a poet, but

12:04

almost nobody thought of him that way.

12:07

He came and we gave him a tour

12:10

and we got into the office. One

12:12

of the people working in the office, as we introduced

12:15

him said, Norman Fisher, the

12:17

poet, and he's like, he lit

12:19

up and it was like, wow. That's

12:21

so cool. Somebody knows I write poetry.

12:23

That's so cool. I'm not just seen as the abbot,

12:26

like part of this lineage. Yeah. It's

12:29

so great. It was such a gift to him. It was

12:31

like, what a moment. That's it.

12:34

So even last night I was talking to this young, to

12:36

this brother after this event I was at, and

12:38

someone recognized him from a thing that he had acted

12:41

in. And like you can see his face beam

12:43

up

12:44

because so much of that was like, oh, thank

12:46

you for seeing me in this other practice.

12:49

So often I think even for me, when

12:52

I think about this story you just shared, I

12:54

think about how,

12:55

but I appreciate it.

12:57

And also too, I think I love about

13:00

you in general, but also I think about our relationship

13:02

is like how we see each other.

13:05

And like not

13:08

many people know that I make music. I

13:10

think there are some people who see like the affirmations

13:12

and don't go further than

13:14

that, which is fine. Like, again,

13:16

capacity, but there's something to

13:18

be said for the folks that just take a little

13:20

bit more

13:21

time to just

13:24

dig below the surface. Because there's like a lot of other things

13:26

that I get excited about that I'm actually more excited

13:28

about. So

13:31

like, I love that.

13:34

Actually, I can't wait for you to see this book because

13:36

there's a little section in there

13:38

on improv. And yes, and,

13:41

so. I love it. I

13:43

love it. I can't wait. Oh yeah, it'd be

13:45

really great. I'd love to hear from you. Yeah.

13:48

So I find that a sense of community is

13:51

an important way to move beyond contraction, as

13:53

it reminds us we're not alone, and it offers us

13:56

a place to ground ourselves and

13:58

both share and receive love like.

13:59

Maybe you can explain Yes and Improv

14:02

to us and talk

14:04

a little bit about the role of community in all

14:06

of this. Yeah, I mean, I think Yes

14:09

and, you know, sometimes we

14:11

go and Yes, you know, I'm saying it's like

14:14

it has so many intersections.

14:18

But

14:18

like when I think of improv, what I get excited about

14:21

is the possibilities,

14:24

you know, and what I also do love

14:26

about improv. We've been seeing it a lot, I

14:28

think more often,

14:29

you know, when I think about the upright citizens brigade,

14:31

we think about freestyle love supreme, of course, I think

14:34

there's these ways that people are trying to bring improv

14:36

into the workplace because they're trying to create

14:38

more collaboration, bigger ideas,

14:41

things of that nature, you know. And

14:44

so I think for me, improv

14:46

is really about

14:48

how do we create community in ways that

14:50

opens the door for

14:52

more expansion, right? Like improv

14:55

creates an opportunity to expand more,

14:57

to expand more in a way that

15:00

creates community in ways that I don't think we could

15:03

actually realize existed, you know, because

15:05

it allows us to dig for a deeper truth. The truth

15:07

is not like the instantaneous response

15:09

to a thing, but how can I show up in

15:12

this moment,

15:13

you know, without pretense,

15:15

without anything keeping us from

15:19

like the fear or the inhibitions that

15:21

I think can sometimes keep

15:24

us from showing up for

15:26

the work, you know, improv

15:29

makes us uncomfortable, you know, I

15:32

think that the best improv folks are the folks

15:34

who just lean in. And I think for

15:36

me, I

15:38

think leaning in has become the

15:41

biggest way for me to, I

15:44

think the biggest way for me to discover

15:47

my sense of self.

15:48

And I think when we're doing improv the right way, that's

15:50

what we get to do, right? We

15:53

get to see a person who's sitting across in my shoes, like

15:55

pretending to be a fish, you know,

15:58

and like you just have to, you're going with it.

15:59

You just go into the moment. You

16:02

go into the moment, you lean into the moment. And

16:05

that can show up in our personal lives,

16:07

the presence. For me,

16:09

more so than film, even in theater,

16:12

the idea of a theatrical ensemble

16:16

can be life-affirming and life-changing. Because

16:19

there's an energy that exists when it's

16:21

like, I am solely reliant on

16:23

you.

16:24

This is not an ego-driven

16:26

platform. Improv in theater is very

16:28

much contingent on the community working

16:31

together in tandem in order to create a moment.

16:33

And not necessarily having a defined moment.

16:35

Improv,

16:38

you can create finality, but it doesn't

16:40

necessarily exist unless we create

16:42

that moment together. And

16:45

if we're not doing it together, then the improv kind

16:47

of sucks. It kind of falls apart. The scene falls

16:49

apart. Because you just got to buy into it.

16:51

When I think so much of that is just being present.

16:54

But I

16:56

think if we're looking at and

16:58

yes, what and yes also allows us to

17:01

do is go, I hear

17:03

you. I

17:04

hear what you're saying.

17:05

And also in addition to,

17:07

there's something else to be added. It's not a but, it's

17:09

not me being dismissive

17:14

of the idea of the opinion, because

17:16

also improv, we keep saying

17:18

yes to a thing. The rule, almost the number

17:20

one rule in the cardinal sin is don't say

17:22

no.

17:23

You don't say no to a thing. Because when

17:25

you say no, you're now closing the opportunity

17:28

for us to reimagine what the possibilities

17:30

are. And that's what life is.

17:33

Improv is a big experiment. And

17:35

for treating life like improv, that means every moment

17:37

gets to change. And that's actually pretty

17:39

cool as opposed to something we need to be scared

17:41

about. Yeah,

17:42

that's tremendous. As a

17:45

writer, it's kind of a solitary

17:48

adventure compared to theater

17:50

or music making with others. And

17:53

so it's a fascinating concept.

17:56

Look at that collaboration. Yeah,

17:58

look at how you can block one another.

17:59

and have this sort of drama like, look

18:02

at me, everybody. Don't look at them, you know? Like,

18:05

really? Yeah, and it's like, it's, and I love

18:07

that you were asking that, Sharon, because

18:09

I haven't

18:12

talked a lot about ensemble work, but I

18:15

think more so than even sports, where

18:17

we're talking very much about

18:20

a competitive nature that exists, that

18:22

is really honestly required in order to succeed.

18:24

There's teamwork, but it's also, I have

18:26

to better an opponent in order to do this. And

18:29

theater ensemble work, I think, teaches young

18:31

kids and children that it's not about competition, it's

18:34

about collaboration. It's really about

18:36

working together in order to find a result

18:38

that

18:39

we can all support, you

18:41

know?

18:42

And I

18:44

think that's why I love Improv, also, too, so much,

18:46

because it just taps into that inner

18:49

being, that place that we

18:51

kind of tend to lock away when we get older because

18:53

of fear of rejection or judgment, and Improv

18:56

gets to open us up, if we're open

18:58

to it. So

19:01

you and I both love to talk about love. So let's

19:03

talk about love, which we are already actually talking

19:06

about love, that's what we're talking about, but

19:09

the way it opens things up for

19:11

us,

19:13

for those around us, for all of us, some of

19:15

your daughters did a little Improv while we were talking

19:17

about Improv. Oh my goodness, yes. That

19:19

was so cool, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That

19:21

was really great. I'm

19:23

glad you felt that way, Sharon. I'm glad that you

19:26

moved here. Of course, I mean,

19:28

it was so funny because we were talking about Improv,

19:30

and I thought, oh, there's an Improv

19:32

moment. Absolutely, always. There's,

19:34

you know.

19:35

Let's build on that. Let's go with it. Yes,

19:38

and. Yes, and, literally,

19:41

and, and, and, and, and, continuously,

19:44

continuously. So

19:47

you're a dad. I am.

19:49

And it's

19:52

not actually that easy in this world to place

19:54

a premium on love, you know? It just isn't.

20:00

about it a bit. You know, I get the

20:02

question a lot and I'm interested to hear

20:04

your response. How does

20:06

love fit in in those situations when someone wants

20:08

to harm you or someone dismisses

20:11

you because of the color of your skin or your

20:14

religion or your gender preference or anything

20:16

about you? Yeah, you know, I think

20:20

compassion plays a big part in that.

20:23

And I think you are

20:28

a great person to

20:32

kind of sit in this space with. I

20:34

think because even now when I

20:36

think about compassion, I think about how you

20:39

reframed it for me in real change, right?

20:42

And like

20:43

how it is active, right? This

20:45

idea of like compassion being an active

20:47

response to a thing as opposed to being empathetic.

20:50

And so

20:51

for me, what I realize is

20:53

like if I'm having compassion for self, right?

20:55

And I'm recognizing my multi-layered

20:57

experience and the things that I've done wrong

20:59

and said

21:00

that may have been inappropriate, right? To people

21:03

that might have harmed people whether intentionally or unintentionally,

21:06

you know? If I can create

21:08

grace and room and space and compassion for myself

21:10

in those moments now where maybe I couldn't

21:13

have done it before, then I think there's a world

21:15

in which I can also do that for others

21:17

while recognizing the context and the

21:19

environments that have created the

21:22

people who show up in those ways.

21:24

That doesn't mean I get it, I

21:26

think, right all the time. You know what I'm saying?

21:28

There are folks that, if I'm being honest, it's

21:30

really hard for me to show up

21:32

in compassion for. And so a

21:35

part of my practice has been

21:36

trying to find something

21:39

that allows me to not like relate

21:41

to the person, but at least understand

21:43

why they are the way that they are. And it doesn't

21:46

mean there's

21:47

not like a

21:48

deep love I have for this person,

21:51

but there is an understanding.

21:54

And I think that understanding can be in gateway as

21:56

opposed to holding on to any like angst

21:58

or hate or anger.

21:59

Granted, also recognizing that I do firmly

22:02

believe that there is love,

22:04

like love is rooted in

22:06

certain kinds of anger because that kind

22:08

of anger can create, you know, a Black

22:11

Panther Party, can create a snick, can create

22:13

all these movements that are like, I'm tired

22:15

of this thing. I feel disenfranchised,

22:17

I am marginalized, I'm now going to create a

22:20

movement that allows my community to

22:22

exist in a way we feel seen, we feel supported,

22:24

we feel loved in spite of, right?

22:27

I think that there's magic in that, I think

22:29

also too,

22:30

if we're clinging to anything in that

22:32

way, like specifically when

22:35

I'm thinking about the anger there, I think someone

22:37

that love gets lost, it gets muddied a

22:39

little.

22:40

And so I think

22:42

when I'm looking at those

22:44

individuals who, as an example, like,

22:47

you know, there was a prominent person

22:49

who had reached out to me about doing a podcast,

22:51

the person who at one point in time

22:55

was very deep in

22:57

the throes, I think, of the GOP.

22:59

And you know, they have a podcast, and they wanted

23:01

me on the podcast. And I said I kindly declined,

23:04

and not because I didn't want to have the conversation, but I didn't want

23:06

to have the conversation on a platform that was essentially

23:08

going to create the things that people

23:11

like go, this person is right or this person

23:13

is wrong, right? And if we kind of choose sides, you

23:16

know, I'm more invested in like the intentional

23:18

conversations that are going to have impact for changing

23:20

hearts and minds, and spaces

23:23

that are also safe for

23:25

that conversation to happen, you know.

23:28

And so for me, I think some of that is

23:31

really,

23:33

it goes back to

23:36

being intentional about the conversations

23:39

I want to have about this, with

23:41

the people who I know are also showing up in

23:43

good faith, because not everyone is showing up in that way. And

23:46

I think I'm old enough and wise enough to be cognizant

23:48

of that.

23:49

And so for, you know, if there are detractors,

23:52

you know, like, I don't, it's like I don't get hurt, I

23:54

get negative comments sometimes, you know, like, very

23:57

rarely, but you know, when they happen, you know, because

23:59

of negativity by the way.

23:59

right? Like they kind of ring a little louder,

24:02

you know what I'm saying? But even

24:04

with those, like I

24:06

can recognize the call and need for attention,

24:09

you know, the need and want

24:11

for visibility

24:14

and using somebody else's platform in order to

24:16

do that, which is why I don't respond to trolls. You

24:19

know, it doesn't really do the community

24:21

any service. It doesn't do

24:23

my spirit, especially any service, but

24:26

it does service the ego. And so

24:28

when it's when it lives in that space, that's the space

24:31

I try to kind of remove myself from, you know.

24:33

Yeah,

24:34

I mean, timing has a lot to do

24:36

with it, you know, and

24:38

if you're recently or

24:40

actively being hurt,

24:41

you know, it's time to take care

24:43

of yourself and survive and,

24:45

you know, maybe take care of the people

24:48

around you and things like that first

24:50

and foremost. Yeah. And it's

24:53

when, you know, you can find grounds and

24:55

a little more security

24:57

or presence, you know, that

25:00

you might think,

25:02

wow, this person's really acting out of suffering because

25:04

when I'm reckless, I'm acting

25:06

out of suffering. So very logically, you know,

25:09

they are too. One of the hard things

25:11

and one of the frustrating things is that, as I

25:14

said to somebody once, and I

25:16

was sitting, I was on the stage actually

25:19

with Norman Fisher and a bunch of other people in

25:21

California, and someone asked the question about

25:24

political leaders and

25:28

saying, I just, you know, I find it so

25:30

hard. And

25:31

I said in response,

25:34

I understand that, you know, because

25:36

they seem so self-satisfied sometimes.

25:39

It's like, you can't

25:40

quite get the pain, you

25:43

know, but I just know that

25:46

because I am like my own laboratory

25:48

and whenever I am acting

25:51

wrongly in some way, it is coming from a

25:53

place of pain. So even if they don't

25:55

know it, even if they don't feel it, even if they

25:57

don't express it. And it's also something

25:59

about the dedication of a life. It's like,

26:02

life's so precious and it's so fleeting

26:04

and that's what you're gonna do with it. You know?

26:07

And like you said something like the, it's,

26:09

you know, your life, what did you just say? Like,

26:12

my life is like a laboratory or something like that? Yeah,

26:14

my own life, yeah. I'm like my own laboratory.

26:16

Yeah, I love that shit because like, that

26:19

lives direct, like, directly correlates

26:21

what you're just talking to. Like, this is, I've

26:23

been saying this a lot more often as

26:25

of late and, you know, I say it and I try

26:27

to remind people like I'm not being morbid

26:30

in that way, but it's like, this is it.

26:32

Like, at least in this vessel, right? Like, in

26:34

this bodily human form that I'm in. So

26:37

like, why not just show up in love?

26:39

And like, why not just take the opportunity to just,

26:41

I don't know,

26:42

do the things that we feel called to do, do the things that

26:44

we wanna do and do things with love? Like, it feels

26:47

better. So like, why would I not

26:49

wanna feel better about myself

26:51

and the world I live in, you know? And just

26:53

trying to make room for that.

26:54

Mm-hmm.

26:56

So, you know, the Buddha has the teaching,

26:59

hatred will never cease by hatred.

27:01

Hatred will only cease by love.

27:04

This is an eternal law, he said, which I always

27:06

found kinda quirky because I considered

27:09

the Buddha like mystery and permanence and

27:11

you're saying this is an eternal law, which

27:14

is so similar to something Martin Luther King Jr.

27:16

said of course years later, hatred

27:18

cannot drive out hate.

27:20

Only love can do that. Yeah, yeah. And

27:22

meanwhile, many of us are taught that love means giving

27:25

in. Yeah, love. Well,

27:27

strength derives from other qualities like relentlessness

27:30

or vengeance. Yeah, like Charles

27:33

Bronson, you know? That's right. You

27:35

think about these so much, so much, it's

27:37

funny you say that, because when you say that makes me think of the

27:40

Charles Bronson's of the world, the terminators of the

27:42

world, oh, so much of what

27:44

we're taught and shown, especially through the media, is

27:46

like vengeance is the correct way

27:49

to solve

27:51

wrong. And because

27:53

it speaks to the inner ego, like

27:57

the human in us, it's like the prime

27:59

the primate in us that's like I want

28:02

to I want to avenge your thing you

28:04

know and you know I think

28:06

you and I have talked about this and I bring this up often

28:08

you know the

28:09

one of the most loving things that I think about was

28:12

the Black Panthers free breakfast program

28:14

you know

28:16

because it was it was created out

28:18

of out of an urgency very loving

28:21

but very strong very resilient and

28:23

an impactful thing that was done but

28:25

we romanticized love so much that

28:28

it tends to lose its luster

28:30

because we've only kept it

28:32

in this box definition of partnership

28:35

and romantic liaisons and all these other

28:37

things as opposed to how do we love

28:39

each other from the communal

28:41

from from the communal space

28:43

from like how do I love my colleagues you

28:46

know I'm saying like how do we broaden

28:48

the the spectrum

28:50

that that love gets to sit and that's the thing that

28:52

I'm most interested in that I want to investigate

28:54

like the other stuff is like there that's cool but

28:57

it's really what you're talking about you know that

28:59

I get excited about

29:01

yeah it's tremendous

29:04

you know maybe we don't listen to one another

29:06

carefully enough or we have so

29:09

many assumptions because I was just reading

29:11

on the internet

29:14

on one of the platforms

29:17

some story about somebody

29:20

who is a hospital chaplain

29:22

and and

29:25

somebody was like ranting

29:27

you know through

29:29

the night and maybe it was seeming like

29:32

sort of dangerous and

29:35

like just freaked out and instead

29:38

of you know

29:40

trying to adjust to increased security or which

29:42

might be smart in some cases but

29:45

the chaplain went up to him and said what

29:47

is it you need what

29:50

is it you need and

29:51

the guy said it was so touching

29:53

he said um

29:56

he'd a cheeseburger and

29:58

some food he said

30:00

the food there reminded him of prison

30:02

where he'd probably been,

30:04

and that he'd gone to bed in the

30:06

hospital five nights in a row crying.

30:09

He was just so hungry, and

30:12

the food reminds him of the worst time

30:14

in his life.

30:16

So the chaplain went out and got him two cheeseburgers

30:19

and some fries. The

30:21

guy was like that he was at peace. When

30:25

you say the free breakfast movement, I think we don't

30:27

think let's feed one another and take

30:30

care of one another. Those

30:32

basic, so primal terrors

30:35

we have

30:36

of not having enough,

30:38

and people don't have enough

30:41

in many cases.

30:43

So

30:45

working with that and reminding

30:47

ourselves that

30:48

nothing good is going to come of people

30:53

being hungry, it's just not. We

30:56

can address that instead of only

30:59

freaking out at the

31:01

results. Yeah.

31:03

So much of that is driven by fear. I

31:07

think

31:08

not being present. When

31:11

I think about the story you shared, I

31:13

think about being able to pause.

31:17

At my day job, there's this thing

31:19

called the pause moment that we have for clients.

31:23

It's an opportunity to look at the creative

31:25

work and give the client an opportunity to go, okay,

31:28

what's working, what isn't working, is this working?

31:30

We're just getting really curious again.

31:34

I think about the people

31:36

I love the most, like you included, are the

31:39

most curious people, just asking

31:41

questions about the world. We'll

31:43

be paused, it gives us an opportunity to go, okay,

31:46

what's actually happening here? Because

31:48

so much of that is the trauma response,

31:50

it's the goal of response, whatever. Because

31:53

it's like this is the thing that my body is used

31:55

to, even the brother

31:57

on the other side of that conversation.

31:59

they're responding

32:02

to trauma and they're in their trauma.

32:04

So that's what we're getting and we're

32:06

seeing the surface, but because

32:09

we think we don't have the capacity, we

32:12

see it in New York all the time. It's

32:14

like, you see a person who's struggling with something

32:16

and it's like, okay, well, I don't have time.

32:18

I'm late for work or

32:21

I gotta get to the next thing or I gotta do the next

32:23

thing. And it's this and

32:25

it's like, we pause,

32:28

there's so much we're missing.

32:30

It goes back to what you were saying about not

32:33

listening properly. And I think sometimes we

32:35

think it's really about the hearing

32:38

with our actual ears. But it's like, if I'm listening

32:40

with my heart and I'm intentional about this, there's a lot.

32:43

There's a lot I get to catch

32:44

in this world if

32:46

I'm just trying to pay more attention and be present for

32:48

it.

32:49

Well, I loved what you said about curiosity

32:53

because I see this

32:56

kind of a growing interest in research

32:58

and in just conversation

33:01

about awe and the feeling

33:03

of awe.

33:04

Which I also read about in this book and

33:06

I think of it as kind

33:08

of the cousin of curiosity

33:11

because if we don't

33:13

stop and really kind of like,

33:16

who are you? Where are you coming

33:18

from? What is this really? I

33:20

came in here and I was having like a trauma response.

33:23

I was having a reaction based on some

33:26

past thing or some assumption and if

33:28

I don't stop and kind of get underneath it,

33:31

let's see what is really going on here actually,

33:33

not just my projection. We

33:36

don't get the chance for that kind of awe. And

33:39

it's interesting because I was talking to somebody about

33:42

how

33:44

my assumption had been that most

33:47

people think of awe and describe

33:49

awe. And in fact, quite a bit of the research

33:51

about awe

33:52

has been around kind of majestic

33:54

scenes, like big nature scenes

33:57

and kind of the overwhelming.

33:59

nature of a forest, you know, a redwood forest

34:02

or something like that. And we feel awe.

34:05

And, uh,

34:06

in contrast to some people who very,

34:09

um, purposefully talk about awe,

34:12

you know, hearing someone's story, like,

34:14

wow, you know, you came through that or,

34:17

you know, look at that, you know, like, well,

34:19

look at what you

34:20

did. You know, like you created that.

34:23

And it came out of nothing, you know, it came

34:25

out of brainwaves or something. You

34:27

know, like, look at that. Uh, you

34:30

know, and, and the person I was talking to said, actually

34:33

they said, there's some research that shows that most

34:35

people feel the biggest

34:37

sense of awe, not looking at the redwoods,

34:40

but from one another,

34:41

from people, if we only stop

34:45

and pay attention. Yeah. Yeah.

34:47

Like, I mean, I think our relationship

34:49

is an example of that, you know, like I,

34:52

you know, I don't, like

34:55

you, pausing. I

34:57

mean, you know, shout out to Lynn, Lynn Manuel

35:00

for like being the connector that he

35:02

is without even necessarily knowing that he was.

35:05

Um, with the idea of,

35:07

oh, like what, like,

35:09

who is this person?

35:10

You know what I'm saying? Like, and, and, you

35:13

know, you reaching out has such a

35:15

profound effect on me because what it made

35:17

me realize was like, oh, this,

35:20

that the world is so much bigger than we

35:22

think it is. And like, we're so much more connected than

35:24

we think we are. And if we're paying attention

35:27

to that, right? Like, there is so much opportunity

35:29

to be, to, to be inspired by that,

35:31

you know, like my, my awe a lot

35:34

of the time comes from like, you know, it's like, you

35:36

know, six, 25, six, 15

35:38

in the morning. And I'm walking Dilla, like,

35:40

you know, my, my, my, my bulldog in the morning.

35:42

And it's like super quiet on, and

35:45

on the block. It's like, nobody's outside, you

35:47

know, the, the sun is kind of slowly

35:49

starting to rise.

35:50

And so the sky kind of looks like a pink purplish

35:52

and it's like, wow, this is really

35:55

cool. Like this, that, that

35:57

I get to be a part of this,

35:59

you know, that I get.

35:59

to live this life and experience this. You

36:02

know, like that, you know, I feel like

36:04

I have some level of awe every

36:06

morning, you know, every day, like, you know, I

36:08

was walking Lila, my daughter, my oldest

36:10

one.

36:11

I was walking from school today,

36:14

and she was just telling me about, we

36:16

were talking about class participation, and

36:18

she was talking about phonics, you

36:21

know, and like what she's been learning in English

36:23

class. And I was in awe of how she was

36:25

explaining to me, like

36:28

the way she's understanding the English

36:30

language, and, you know, it

36:33

was just kind of blowing my mind to hear my seven-year-old

36:36

talk about phonics in a way that she wasn't

36:38

talking about it maybe three months

36:41

ago, which to me means she's paying attention,

36:43

she's understanding the coursework, and she's learning, she's

36:45

expanding. And it's just really cool to see

36:48

that work happen in real time for her, you

36:50

know, in a way that I think gets overlooked

36:52

when we're adults, like we learn a thing, and it's like

36:54

you're supposed to do it, and it's like, but how amazing

36:57

is that?

36:58

That like, you can pick up a book,

37:00

learn something, and then that gets implemented into

37:03

our daily life. To me, that's awe-inspiring,

37:06

because not everyone

37:06

can do that, you know, whether

37:08

it's a learning disability or some level of like a disability

37:11

or disorder that bars us from engaging

37:14

with the world, and that way it's the things that we take for granted,

37:16

you know, like I have a microphone, this microphone

37:18

was gifted to me,

37:19

you know, like some time ago from

37:22

my old job, you know, it's like these

37:24

things that I

37:26

didn't know I was going to need later on,

37:28

but have not been in service to me, it's

37:30

like that this is, this to

37:32

me is like, oh,

37:34

it inspires

37:36

me to continue to try to be more open to

37:39

like what else is around us, you know? Yeah,

37:41

that's so great. Well, even, you know,

37:43

the transition of

37:46

age as a child, you know, that

37:48

not just the three months you were your older daughter, but,

37:51

you know, moving from infancy to

37:53

this

37:53

walking, talking creature, and

37:55

then, you know, and the things

37:57

they know, and the things they say, and the things that...

38:00

change as they go on. It's

38:02

extraordinary. Yeah. And I

38:04

get to see this chasm between my seven-year-old

38:06

and my three-year-old. And it blows my

38:09

mind

38:10

every time to see how they

38:12

interact and engage with each other and also to

38:14

how completely different they are with

38:17

regards to how they

38:19

show up in the world and how they choose to show up in the world.

38:22

And I don't know, it's just, it's,

38:26

you know, if I'm treating

38:28

myself like a laboratory and it's like

38:31

an experiment, right, then I

38:32

get

38:33

to practice these things with

38:36

my children in real time

38:38

and they respond or don't respond,

38:41

you know. And

38:43

I don't know, it's magical.

38:45

It's magical because again, if

38:47

we're really present for it, we get to

38:50

see all these different things. You know, there was,

38:52

forget the name of the author.

38:55

He wrote this book, Here I Am, this fictional

38:58

book. He also wrote another book that was, his

39:00

first name is Jonathan. I wish I could remember his last name,

39:02

but I've never forgotten. There was a chapter

39:05

in this book where he's the character, the father

39:07

character, he's talking about,

39:09

he says something along the lines of if I knew that

39:12

this was going to be the last time that

39:14

I was going to read my son a bedtime story, I would

39:16

have cherished it a bit more.

39:17

You know, and I think about that often because there wasn't

39:20

like, so like when I would rely on a bedtime stories,

39:22

I was always cognizant of that because the

39:24

day came, I remember the day when she was

39:26

just like, no, I, you know, I want to, I

39:28

want to read, I want to read this by myself, you

39:31

know, and like sometimes she might ask me to read a story, but

39:33

she's past that age now. There's no, you

39:36

know, she doesn't look for Daddy to

39:38

read her story. And it's like, Oh, but I know

39:40

I appreciated the time. So it doesn't feel as sad,

39:42

I think, and I could be wrong. I could be making

39:44

it up, but I think it feels in my spirit. I

39:46

can imagine what it would have felt like if I hadn't

39:48

been

39:49

not prepared for it, but acknowledge

39:51

the fact that this thing is a thing that will be true.

39:54

And so just being settled in that

39:56

space, as opposed to the space of,

39:58

um, um, non-presence,

40:01

I guess, you know? Yeah. No, I think you're right.

40:04

Like,

40:05

because I think that regret,

40:08

which I hear so much say

40:10

later in life, towards the end of someone's

40:13

life, and the things that we

40:15

regret are not, man, I

40:17

spent so much time reading my child's story.

40:20

It was like I was never home.

40:23

To

40:25

live life fully means to

40:27

engage in those things and

40:29

not to be so strategic about everything.

40:32

It's unimportant enough. It's

40:34

not

40:35

building my reputation or my career.

40:38

Yeah. It's like, yeah. The

40:41

things that we can't keep. Granted,

40:43

there's nothing we can take with us, right? But I

40:46

think the things that we cherish more

40:48

often than not are the memories we create with

40:50

the people that we love. And

40:53

we lose out when, you know,

40:55

I work. I work a lot. I'm very cognizant

40:58

of the work I do, but the work that I do, I love.

41:00

And so part of my work is also trying

41:03

to implement

41:04

ways to create more room for

41:06

things that are non-work. But even

41:08

my love practice is work, as some people might

41:10

say, because I'm a capital card, so everything is

41:13

framed around work. But I've also been trying

41:15

to revolutionize how we talk about work.

41:17

At least for me, it's like work gets to be

41:19

loving.

41:20

And if more of us showed up in

41:22

love in the things that we work at and work

41:24

with, then I think

41:26

people would actually be a lot happier, considering

41:28

we spend so much time working. And

41:30

so I want my work to be loving

41:32

across the board. But

41:35

anyway, it's the idea though of, I want

41:37

to make sure I'm making room for the things

41:40

that matter. This conversation to me is like,

41:42

I get to talk to you.

41:43

So it's, you know, that

41:45

to me is cool. It's

41:48

part of the work, but it's like loving work. And

41:50

so I invite that. I have it now.

41:54

No one could ever say

41:56

like I have it, like sharing is

41:58

not my home. You know what I'm saying? Like it's, it's,

42:01

with this proof, you know, and that to me is

42:03

more important than, I don't know, like

42:06

some thing title

42:08

that I can get that can be taken away from me at a whims

42:10

notice because someone feels that. Yeah, that's beautiful.

42:12

Thank you. Which brings

42:14

me to my next topic, which is gratitude. I do

42:17

feel so grateful for you truly. You

42:20

know, and some people feel that

42:22

if you're doing inner work, it means you aren't going to try

42:24

to change external conditions and so

42:27

gratitude is an interesting example of that because

42:30

some people believe it and you know, it's pretty

42:32

prevalent that if you feel grateful that

42:35

you're just going to accept

42:37

crumbs, you know, and that you're going to let people

42:39

take advantage of you and so on, but research

42:42

I'm told actually shows differently that

42:44

if we practice gratitude, it gives us some energy.

42:47

Yeah. Yeah. And then with that energy,

42:49

like with that juice, we can sustain an effort

42:52

towards change, otherwise life, it can be too hard

42:54

or it's disappointing all the time. But,

42:58

you know, it's just a delicate thing to

43:00

talk about gratitude

43:02

without fully understanding that it

43:04

actually gives us strength and energy. And

43:07

it's not really a band-aid, it's something

43:10

every day can give us kind of resilience

43:13

and replenishment. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

43:15

And you know, like when I, when I think

43:18

about

43:18

gratitude and practice of gratitude, I

43:21

think about something I shared with you earlier about like being

43:23

content. Cause what I was worried about

43:25

too was, Oh, I'm not striving anymore. Does

43:27

that mean, I don't

43:29

know, I'm going to be lazy or I'm not going

43:31

to continue to push myself in an actuality

43:34

because I'm so content. I

43:36

get to say yes to things that are more

43:38

closely aligned with my value

43:41

system

43:42

and who I am as a, as a, as

43:44

a, as a human, as a creative, as an artist,

43:46

as a black man in this world, like I

43:48

just say, I only say yes to the things that excite

43:50

me. And that is a privilege I'm, I

43:53

am grateful for, but it's also

43:55

a privilege I've worked for and I've earned,

43:57

you know, through saying yes to a lot of things I did

43:59

that with. to say yes to because I

44:02

knew I was at those times, I was grateful

44:04

that

44:05

people were coming to me for things that were

44:08

deemed to be opportunities. You know, some of

44:10

that stuff was unpaid or me performing

44:12

for what some would consider to be peanuts

44:14

for me at that time. It wasn't because like, you know, I was

44:17

struggling check, check, trying to feed

44:19

my first, my first child and figuring

44:21

the world out.

44:22

But I think for me,

44:24

it's just been it's there's a level of excitement

44:27

when it comes to being content and having

44:29

and

44:30

being grateful and having this gratitude practice

44:32

because I

44:33

get to just show up fully as myself

44:36

in the spaces because these are the spaces I've invited

44:39

in,

44:40

you know,

44:41

because I've been open to

44:43

saying, okay, I just want I only want

44:45

the things that are

44:47

going to challenge me, you know, you

44:49

know, I've been I've been asking for more ease,

44:53

you know, in my life. And that's, I think,

44:55

sometimes a very strong contradiction, especially

44:57

if you're a black or brown person who's

45:00

grown up in a community where, you know, and

45:02

like, I think this is for all people. But I think, especially

45:05

when I think about some of my black and brown folks,

45:07

that this notion of

45:09

the capitalism and

45:11

having black wealth, which has become a very big conversation

45:14

for us, and so much of that is steeped in

45:16

like striving, right? And like this Western

45:19

idea of having and accumulating and

45:22

having things assets, right.

45:24

And so much of the

45:26

wealth that I've gained

45:29

has been through

45:30

having conversations with you, sharing

45:32

space with like sharing space

45:34

like I did with my homegirl Deja last night, you

45:36

know, like really,

45:38

but that was an opportunity that came.

45:41

And it came because of our relationship, a relationship

45:43

that I'm grateful for, like, the us and I have

45:45

a conversation now is because of the

45:48

seeds you and I planted in this relationship together,

45:51

you know, and that's the thing that I'm grateful for. You

45:53

know, it's, and so like, some of that is

45:56

also me being cognizant that I'm top

45:58

of mind for people because of how I show up in

45:59

the world. Not because I'm giving

46:03

like, it's like I'm paying anybody,

46:05

you know, it's like, we're feeding each

46:07

other, you know, you were talking about this earlier, and like,

46:09

how do we get to feed each other? And

46:11

you know, there's so many practices that that center

46:14

around like, like food

46:16

being a way that we serve each other, right? And

46:18

I think because there's a level

46:20

of gratitude for recognizing you don't

46:23

have much. And if all you have is love

46:25

that is sustenance, you know, and

46:27

that's the thing that

46:29

I find to be most rewarding. And the more

46:31

that I've leaned into that, if like

46:33

opportunity is the thing that's important to me

46:35

or to a person, the more I've leaned into

46:37

love, the more opportunities have come from

46:39

that.

46:40

And I'm grateful for that.

46:42

It's really beautiful. I love what you

46:44

say about everything you're saying is just

46:47

pointing to how extraordinary this

46:49

existence is.

46:50

And I've quoted you in my book saying,

46:53

we put so much pressure

46:56

on ourselves to make something extraordinary

46:58

out of this existence of ours, when in reality,

47:01

our breath, the mere presence

47:03

of our flesh, our feet touching the ground,

47:06

and our hands reaching for forever burning

47:08

sun is as extraordinary as

47:10

we need to be.

47:12

So this awesome, inspiring.

47:16

I'm listening like that is actually because even you

47:18

read in it,

47:19

like, I'm like, it did make me

47:21

like, you know, I

47:23

think I remember one podcast, you and

47:25

I were talking and I was I

47:27

think I was talking to like, even now I'm looking out

47:29

the window and like, you know, the wind is blowing branches

47:31

of like kind of moving and swaying. And it's like,

47:34

my eyes are recording all this, like my brain

47:36

is interpreting the thing that I'm saying

47:38

that is wild. Like how

47:40

does that even happen in less than

47:42

a millisecond of like this thing

47:44

that my like I'm gathering all this information?

47:47

Like how does that how does that not

47:49

inspire you to go Oh, shit, like what

47:51

what else? What else? What else is happening

47:53

that I'm missing?

47:54

You know, like that's that's my thing, you

47:57

know, like what else am I missing? So like even after the

47:59

event, like last night, Sharon, I was standing

48:01

outside and I'm just looking at the

48:03

sky and it was like kind of partly cloudy.

48:05

I'm like, this is wild that I'm

48:07

getting to do this. You know, like it is

48:10

unbelievable. It

48:13

is unbelievable to me that a

48:16

black boy who grew up in the Bronx,

48:18

whose father didn't have a lot,

48:21

has the opportunity to kind of like live

48:23

all the things, everything, Sharon,

48:25

that I know that he would have wished for. And

48:28

I just turned 40, you know? So like God

48:30

willing, I know there's like a lot more, but like right

48:33

now though,

48:34

right now it's pretty fucking awesome. That

48:37

is so beautiful. Too

48:39

great.

48:40

So unfortunately our time

48:42

is coming to an end, but every

48:45

one of these encounters is like a building

48:47

block to actually being together. It

48:49

is, I know it's like the suspense. Yeah,

48:52

really, it's like, it's

48:54

so cool. So I'm wondering if ending our

48:56

time together, you could

48:58

lead us in some kind of reflection or

49:00

practice or

49:01

share some kind of

49:04

poetry, whatever you move to do.

49:07

I pray you are checking the

49:09

metrics, the vital signs,

49:12

open the blinds and remind yourself

49:15

you are here today.

49:18

What you say out loud is just a

49:20

manifestation of blessings. Adjust

49:24

your posture and adhere to the knowledge

49:26

and lessons. You ain't gotta wait. You can take

49:28

a vow right now and proceed with

49:30

your fate. The road ahead means

49:33

you are never late.

49:34

You see your peace of mind is in between

49:37

the marginal lines of mediocre

49:39

and the next great thing at the nexus

49:41

of joy worn on your heart

49:44

sleeve like a tattooed sling.

49:47

If the caged bird sings, then

49:49

you too can make your way

49:51

to the rapture. And after the fact,

49:54

the captured moments of solace, you

49:56

may lack or no longer in the distance.

50:00

just another row in the arc

50:02

from the rest, from the

50:05

tongue to the breast, from

50:08

your rest to resistance.

50:13

Yeah. Now,

50:16

thank you so much. Thank you, Sharon.

50:19

It's been a incredible

50:20

delight as always, Joel.

50:23

Thank you for joining me today. If

50:25

you'd like to be continually inspired by

50:27

more of Joel's wisdom, as I am, you

50:29

can find him on Twitter at,

50:32

I just got this, it's also, AKA stands

50:35

for also known as, right? Yes.

50:36

I just got that this moment. It's

50:39

J-O-E-L-A-K-A-M-A-G.

50:42

Yeah, because MAG is my rap name. Okay.

50:47

Yeah. Just this moment, I was enlightened. Amazing.

50:50

Or on Instagram, I

50:53

am Joel Leon. I-A-M-J-O-E-L-L-E-O-N.

51:00

Thank you so much. Thank you, Sharon. Thank

51:03

you so much. Thank you,

51:05

Sharon. Thank you. Hey

51:12

folks, thanks for listening. If

51:15

you'd like to learn more about Sharon's work,

51:18

her virtual offerings, classes,

51:21

courses, really all things

51:23

Sharon, this

51:26

has been the Metta Hour podcast

51:29

from the Be Here Now Network. May

51:32

you be safe, may you

51:34

be happy, may you be

51:36

healthy and may you live

51:39

with ease.

51:51

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