0:01

We are sharing the same

0:03

atmosphere as every other

0:06

person, every other 8 billion person

0:09

on this planet. We are

0:12

sharing the same atmosphere, and what

0:14

is happening in faraway parts

0:16

of the world are affecting us.

0:31

Hello

0:32

and welcome to the Metta Hour

0:34

podcast with Sharon

0:36

Salzberg. I'm Lily Cushman

0:39

and I

0:39

produce this podcast, and

0:42

we're coming to you today with episode 224,

0:46

featuring a conversation with the

0:49

brilliant Susan Bauer Wu.

0:52

Susan is an author, a teacher,

0:55

she's been the president of

0:57

the Mind and Life Institute, since 2015,

1:02

and she's here today talking about

1:04

her new book, A

1:07

Future We Can Love, how

1:09

we can reverse the climate crisis with

1:12

the power of our hearts

1:13

and minds. So

1:16

this is a really fascinating

1:18

conversation about climate crisis,

1:21

and really how to apply the tools, the

1:24

wisdom of a Buddhist framework

1:26

and practice,

1:27

as a way to engage

1:30

with the climate crisis. If you

1:32

don't know Susan and her work, she's

1:35

an organizational leader, a clinical

1:38

scientist, a mindfulness

1:40

teacher. She actually got her start

1:43

with a career in healthcare as

1:45

a nurse, and doing

1:47

also

1:48

incredible work at the Mind and Life Institute,

1:51

which just celebrated its 35th

1:53

anniversary last year.

1:55

And the Mind and Life Institute

1:57

has been bringing science and

1:59

contemplation. and wisdom together, and Susan

2:02

has been at the helm of their work for some

2:05

time now. So this

2:07

is a really time-appropriate

2:09

conversation. I know

2:12

all of us have been seeing such

2:14

a huge range of climate disasters

2:16

around the world right now that are affecting people

2:19

we know, people we don't know. And

2:22

this whole conversation is really centered

2:25

around how we

2:28

can be more empowered to

2:30

navigate the climate crisis.

2:33

And the book itself was inspired

2:35

by a conversation between

2:37

His Holiness the Dalai Lama

2:40

and Greta Thunberg who

2:42

met on Zoom kind of early in the pandemic

2:46

to

2:46

talk about climate change. And

2:49

that's what spurred this book on. So

2:51

we're just so excited to bring you this

2:53

conversation today and

2:55

shed some light on a topic

2:56

that we don't often

2:58

address here on the podcast.

3:02

Before we get to the episode,

3:04

we

3:05

also have a big announcement that

3:08

coming this October, October 10th to be exact,

3:12

Sharon is releasing a brand

3:15

new book. It is her second

3:17

brand new book of the year, which

3:20

is really a product of her time in quarantine

3:23

a few years ago. Finding

3:25

Your Way, Meditations, Thoughts,

3:28

and Wisdom for Living an

3:30

Authentic Life. This is

3:32

a book unlike any that she's ever

3:35

released. It is a full-color

3:38

illustrated gift book. And

3:41

in it are these short

3:43

essays, you could call them, that are centered

3:46

around quotations, many

3:49

of which are Sharon's most popular

3:51

quotes, like,

3:52

We Can Always Begin Again, as

3:55

well as quotes from Sojourner

3:57

Truth and many others.

4:00

This book I think of as the perfect

4:02

introduction to Sharon as

4:04

a teacher. It's for folks who

4:07

maybe don't meditate or

4:09

not really into spiritual practice,

4:13

and it's just in time for gift-giving

4:16

season coming up with the holidays. So we're

4:19

delighted to bring this book into the world.

4:22

It feels like kind of a different access

4:24

point than Sharon's other books. You

4:26

can pick it up, open it to any page, and

4:29

walk away with a little nugget

4:31

when things are challenging

4:33

or you need a little inspiration. So

4:37

you can head over to our website

4:40

at SharonSalzberg.com

4:42

and find the pre-sale link there.

4:45

Also, our publisher, Hachet, is offering

4:47

a 20% discount if

4:50

you purchase the book directly

4:53

through them. And last

4:55

but not least, for anyone who pre-orders

4:58

the book in the United States,

5:01

there is a small poster

5:04

that's inspired by the book that you

5:06

can receive as a gift from

5:09

us to you just as a thank

5:11

you for supporting the book

5:13

and pre-ordering. Finding

5:16

Your Way is coming your

5:18

way October 10th. And

5:21

so let's get to today's

5:23

episode. Sharon

5:25

Salzberg and Susan Bower

5:28

Wu.

5:38

Welcome, Susan, to the podcast. We've

5:40

been friends and colleagues for a long time

5:42

now. It's wonderful to have you here, and

5:45

we're celebrating your new book, A Future

5:47

We Can Love, How We Can Reverse

5:49

the Climate Crisis with the Power

5:51

of Our Hearts and Minds.

5:52

Great title. And before we dive

5:55

further into the book, I'm wondering if

5:57

you can share some of your story for our

5:59

listeners.

5:59

how you came to this

6:01

path. You're the president of the My Life

6:03

Institute,

6:04

and you're also a scholar, and you have a background

6:06

in healthcare.

6:08

Thanks, Sharon. It's really,

6:10

really great to be here. Appreciate

6:12

you having me

6:14

on the show. Yeah,

6:18

so I started my

6:21

career path in healthcare. I was

6:23

a nurse, and my early

6:26

work was in oncology and psych,

6:29

and in hospice. And

6:32

through my work in cancer

6:34

care, and again, we have to go back,

6:36

this was in the early 80s, I

6:40

had an opportunity to work with people

6:42

over really long periods of time when

6:44

they had their cancer. I'm

6:46

talking about years from the time of diagnosis

6:49

until long time survival,

6:53

or until they

6:55

died. So what I noticed

6:57

as a 20-something year old

7:00

caregiver was

7:02

that it seemed to me

7:04

that people who had very

7:06

similar diagnoses and

7:09

similar treatment plans and

7:11

pathology actually

7:14

seemed to fare differently. And as somebody

7:16

who worked closely with them and got to know them,

7:19

it seemed to me that there was really something going

7:21

on in how they lived their lives, and particularly

7:23

the meaning and the relationships

7:27

that they had in their lives. And so

7:29

that sparked my interest to actually

7:32

pursue graduate studies. And I was

7:34

fortunate to begin in a

7:36

new interdisciplinary field called

7:40

psychoneuroimmunology that was

7:42

just beginning at that

7:44

time in the early 90s. And

7:49

so I pursued my PhD, trying

7:52

to better understand the science of the

7:54

mind-body connection and the role

7:56

that meaning-making may play

7:59

in terms of our... health functioning

8:01

and our immune function. And

8:04

it was during that time

8:07

I also started meditating. So

8:10

I've been meditating now about 30 years. And

8:14

when I started meditating

8:17

and it was a Korean Zen practice,

8:21

I realized how much the

8:23

practices helped me and how

8:25

I was shifting as a result of the practices.

8:29

And that

8:31

fast forward, I did a postdoc

8:33

in behavioral medicine. And my first faculty

8:36

job was at the University of

8:38

Massachusetts Medical School. And

8:40

John Kabat-Zinn was still there. And

8:45

I basically merged my personal meditation

8:47

practice with my

8:50

scholarly work. And so I

8:52

became an MBSR teacher and started

8:56

doing research in that area. And so

8:58

fast forward years later, I got involved

9:00

with the Mind and Life Institute as a meditation

9:04

researcher, as a clinical scientist. And

9:07

here I am in 2023 as president of Mind and Life.

9:13

It's such a rich cross-section between

9:15

health care workers and

9:17

contemplative practice and area

9:19

that I've been drawn to engage with

9:21

over the years. And you're having been

9:23

a caregiver, so directly.

9:25

And I'm curious about how that information

9:27

worked today.

9:30

Yeah.

9:33

Well, when I think

9:36

about health

9:38

care professionals and being a caregiver

9:41

and

9:43

being a good caregiver, the

9:46

things that really rise

9:48

to the top are authentic presence

9:52

and compassion. To

9:56

me, those are just critical

9:59

life skills. to have in

10:01

all dimensions of our work. So

10:04

I bring that to my leadership

10:06

role in leading a team

10:09

and working with various stakeholders.

10:13

And it also just informs the work

10:15

and the priorities that we've set

10:18

in the work that we do with Mind

10:20

and Life. And as it

10:22

relates to climate change, and we'll probably

10:24

talk more about that because that's just

10:27

been an area that I've gotten more

10:29

and more interested in since

10:31

writing the book, is

10:34

that there are so many

10:36

dimensions

10:41

related to healthcare, whether it's

10:43

grief or connecting

10:46

with nature, that really

10:48

make a difference to how

10:51

we navigate the times that we're in. So

10:54

to me, there's lots of, lots

10:56

of lessons to bring from my

10:58

work and caregiving to the

11:01

work I do today.

11:02

I do wanna go more into climate

11:04

change in a minute. And I have a feeling

11:06

that what I'm about to say,

11:08

which I just thought of will connect.

11:11

And I think you've probably heard me tell

11:13

this story because I've told it for so many years.

11:16

They're so impactful on me.

11:19

About the time I went to lead

11:21

a nurses training seminar at

11:25

Walter Reed Army Hospital. And

11:28

I had a friend who was a nurse

11:30

that's there at the time and

11:32

it was like national or international nurses

11:34

week. And so they had all kinds of different programs.

11:37

They had fly fishing on the lawn, on

11:39

the dry lawn and they had meditation with

11:41

me. And so she'd

11:43

also arranged, my friend arranged for

11:45

a very short

11:47

tour of one of the wards for me.

11:50

And needless to say, it was like really

11:52

wrenching. It was so intense between the

11:55

injured soldiers or their families

11:57

and it was

11:58

very, very intense. And...

13:52

and

14:00

with the natural world. And

14:03

if we really look at nature, we

14:05

see countless examples

14:08

of how to be resilient.

14:13

But as it relates to

14:15

compassion and seeing

14:17

clearly, I think we really need

14:20

to be awake to the

14:23

tremendous disparities that are

14:25

before us as it relates to climate change,

14:28

that individuals and communities

14:31

and countries

14:35

that are most under-resourced

14:37

and most vulnerable are those that are affected

14:40

the most.

14:41

And

14:42

those of us that come from more privileged

14:45

backgrounds really, really

14:47

have

14:47

an obligation

14:50

to be awake and

14:52

to live compassionately and

14:54

to do everything we can to alleviate the

14:57

suffering

14:58

of those who are really most harmed by

15:01

the climate devastation that we're experiencing

15:04

and more to come.

15:06

Now it's amazing as an issue

15:09

because it's really both. It's like needing

15:11

to open to the fact that, as you say,

15:14

the most vulnerable will be affected the most,

15:17

but also seeing the universality

15:19

of it. Like I was in New York City not too long

15:21

ago, in my apartment,

15:24

my rental apartment, and

15:26

I was working at the computer and I just glanced

15:28

over my shoulder out the window, and

15:31

the sky was as yellow as a lemon. And

15:34

that was the day that they declared New York the most polluted

15:36

city in the world.

15:38

And I thought, I can't go outside. You

15:42

know, in many days, that

15:44

visit and the next, people would come to see me

15:46

and say, don't go outside, whatever you do, you're not going to be

15:48

able to breathe.

15:51

And you think, oh yeah, look at this. It's

15:53

come upon us. Yeah, Cheryl, I'll just...

15:59

I'll just jump in here because

16:02

I was in New York on that exact day.

16:04

I know the day you're talking about it. And

16:07

it was actually the official

16:09

launch of this book, A Future We

16:11

Can Love. It was so creepy.

16:13

It was like, this is nuts. And

16:16

for people who are listening that may not be aware

16:19

of why the skies were so yellow and the

16:21

air quality was so poor,

16:23

it was because

16:25

the air was moving

16:27

from the forest fires in Canada

16:30

down to the northeastern or the whole

16:32

eastern seaboard of the United States.

16:35

And

16:37

the air quality was awful. I did

16:39

go outside because I don't have a serious

16:44

pulmonary condition. But I have to tell

16:46

you, my throat, my chest, my

16:48

eyes were burning.

16:51

And it was like, how

16:55

can we not realize

16:58

that we are sharing the same

17:00

atmosphere as every other

17:03

person, every other eight billion person

17:07

on this planet? We are

17:09

sharing the same atmosphere. And

17:11

what is happening in far away

17:13

parts of the world are affecting us.

17:16

And sometimes it's more obvious

17:18

than others. And on that day in

17:20

June 2023, we felt it.

17:23

We saw it. It's

17:27

amazing that your book is coming out of it.

17:30

Happy launch. It

17:33

was crazy. Yeah. Oh,

17:35

in fact, I just share this little

17:38

fact related to that is that

17:40

the publishing team, which is Shambhala Publications,

17:43

and they're based in Colorado, they couldn't

17:45

make it to the opening event because

17:48

the airports in New York were closed

17:51

because

17:53

of the air quality because the planes could

17:56

not see. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

18:00

That's also interesting because sometimes

18:04

people hear that

18:06

meditation experience will lead to

18:08

a deepening understanding

18:11

of interconnection and it's kind of like, well,

18:13

that's just sentimental. That's frou frou, that's

18:15

like new agey, but interconnection

18:18

is not always really delightful either, you know? Interconnection

18:22

just is. It's just the truth of things. And so, fires

18:25

in Canada. There you go. And,

18:27

you know, if you're in New York, they're affected.

18:29

Or you'll get a country like Tibet

18:32

and how much they're

18:34

affected by things happening in China

18:36

and, you know, and

18:38

in India it's just like interconnection

18:41

is. And so, it's both beautiful

18:44

and

18:44

terrible at times.

18:47

And here we are. So, it's grappling with the

18:49

truth of life in a way.

18:51

Yeah, exactly.

18:54

Yeah.

18:56

Yeah, you know, related to

18:58

that is, you

19:00

know, his

19:02

holiness, the Dalai Lama,

19:05

you know, underscores

19:07

that we are one of eight billion people

19:09

and that we share one

19:11

home, our only home, planet earth

19:14

together.

19:15

And that

19:18

the basic Buddhist teachings

19:21

related to interdependence, interconnection,

19:25

mean that each of us

19:27

are part of the

19:30

problem

19:32

and we're also part of the solution.

19:34

That there are, you know, infinite

19:37

causes and conditions to

19:39

each of our lives that make

19:42

a difference that fit into the larger

19:44

whole. And you

19:46

know, when I say that we are part of the problem,

19:48

that

19:49

really, my invitation to

19:53

all of us is to really

19:57

look at ourselves and our lives

19:59

and to

19:59

to look in

20:02

and to recognize that

20:06

there are ways that we are living that

20:09

may not be as wholesome

20:13

and as helpful to all the other beings.

20:16

And so we need to begin, to be honest,

20:19

to look at that. And so part of seeing clearly

20:22

it's not just looking out, but

20:24

it's also looking within.

20:28

So let's talk about your book. What was

20:31

the genesis of it? I know it was inspired

20:33

by a specific conversation you

20:35

heard between his homeliness Adanile Lemma

20:38

and environmental activist Greta Thunberg.

20:43

Yeah. So it was,

20:45

yeah,

20:46

the real impetus

20:49

for the book, it started with an event

20:51

that the Mind and Life Institute

20:53

hosted. And it

20:55

was on January

20:58

8th or January 9th, depending

21:02

on where you were in the world. It

21:05

was just a few

21:07

days after the major

21:09

violence in Washington, D.C. And

21:14

still we had over 1 million

21:17

people join us live

21:19

to listen to the Dalai Lama and

21:22

Greta Thunberg and

21:24

climate scientists and watch the

21:26

launch of films called

21:28

Climate Feedback, Climate Emergency

21:30

Feedback with Films. So

21:33

it was kind of amazing that

21:35

a million people showed up to

21:38

the event. It was like 11 o'clock

21:40

here in the east coast of the United States,

21:43

early morning in India, middle of the night

21:46

in Sweden. And

21:51

the interest from that gathering,

21:55

basically there was a lot of buzz afterward.

22:00

and the publishers came to us to

22:02

think about writing, to write the book. And

22:05

what we realized, and

22:07

actually my literary agent is Stephanie

22:09

Tate, who I know that

22:12

you know Sharon. And

22:15

Stephanie, in conversation together,

22:17

she's like, you know, I think there's a

22:19

much bigger story here than this event. And,

22:22

you know, let's begin to think about

22:24

that. And that was a really wonderful

22:27

opportunity for us to

22:29

step back and to reshape the

22:31

book. So, yes,

22:34

it was inspired by this event with

22:36

the Dalai Lama and Greta and the scientists, but

22:38

it's really much more than that. So

22:41

that's how it got started.

22:46

I keep imagining the age difference between

22:49

those two people, Dalai

22:51

Lama and Greta Thunberg, making

22:53

for a very interesting conversation.

22:55

Yeah, yeah. Well, and

22:57

it was Zoom, right?

22:59

You know, Dalai Lama is not totally

23:01

Zoom proficient and, you

23:03

know, and Greta

23:06

is very focused

23:09

and articulate in her speech, but

23:12

the two of them, even under

23:14

those circumstances, really,

23:17

really connected. And in fact, earlier

23:19

that year, in early 2020, the

23:23

Dalai Lama just reached

23:26

out to Greta himself

23:28

and sent her a letter. I think we have a copy

23:30

of the letter inside the book. But

23:33

the Dalai Lama reached out to Greta and

23:36

just to thank her for

23:38

what she's doing

23:40

and what she believes in

23:42

and what she stands for.

23:44

You know, the Dalai Lama has been,

23:47

he's been an environmentalist for decades,

23:50

decades. And

23:53

a couple examples

23:55

of how that's shown up is that when he got

23:57

the Nobel Prize, he was the first person

23:59

to be a Nobel Prize winner. person that

24:02

the notation for the Nobel Prize was related

24:04

to environmental activism

24:06

efforts.

24:07

Just quite extraordinary.

24:10

And then after he

24:12

received his Nobel

24:14

Prize money and

24:16

he was doing a Khali Chakra

24:18

teaching in India, he distributed

24:23

seeds

24:25

of fruit trees

24:27

from all over the world and

24:30

with instructions of how to

24:32

plant them and try to

24:34

make it relevant to the geographic

24:37

region where people were from and

24:40

encourage people to start

24:43

to plant trees. And

24:46

I've often wondered, you know,

24:48

those trees now would be about 30 years

24:50

old and which is quite

24:52

substantial. And

24:55

I would have loved to have found

24:57

some of the people who planted those trees

24:59

and still have them that

25:02

they can look at and experience.

25:05

But I haven't been able to reach anybody who

25:07

planted those trees. So if you're listening and you have

25:09

one of those trees that the Dalai Lama planted, let

25:11

me know.

25:12

Oh, yeah. Isn't that cool? Pretty cool.

25:15

It's very cool. I

25:19

will say also the Dalai Lama is the very first person

25:21

I ever heard use the term

25:24

income inequality when

25:27

he wrote a book, Ethics for

25:29

New Millennium, which was before the turn of the

25:32

previous century. You

25:34

know, he talked

25:38

about ethics,

25:42

obviously, and secular ethics not needing

25:45

to be tied to a belief system or dogma.

25:48

But he spoke about basically

25:50

conservation and resources. And

25:54

he talked about maybe

25:57

a million, several millions enough, maybe you don't

25:59

need a billion. and that

26:01

people are going to suffer, there's going to be struggle and

26:05

things like that. And

26:08

so it was such a different concept than a

26:11

very sort of orthodox,

26:14

limited depiction of

26:16

ethical life, which I was

26:18

very accustomed to all those

26:21

years of getting teachings in Asia. And

26:24

suddenly it was this expansive, interesting,

26:26

it was always been interesting and

26:29

challenging, but suddenly it was an expansive,

26:31

creative use

26:33

of those ideas. And so applying

26:36

the idea of ethics and, you know, thou shalt

26:38

not steal. And

26:42

what does it mean to steal? What does it mean to live

26:44

in a way that's exploitative, that is

26:46

using resources in a way that's unfair,

26:50

that's going to hurt the planet, takes

26:52

it to a whole other dimension.

26:54

Yeah,

26:58

he's been such

27:02

a leader for all of us

27:04

and so ahead of his times. Yeah.

27:08

So

27:09

I'm wondering if the writing of the book changed your own views

27:11

on climate change.

27:15

Yeah, it definitely, definitely,

27:18

definitely did. I

27:21

was transformed as a result of doing

27:23

the research and writing it. And

27:26

so if I had to, you

27:28

know, kind of just pin down the

27:30

two ways, very simply,

27:33

just one

27:35

is the urgency. Yes, we

27:37

could listen to the news and we feel the urgency,

27:40

but the urgency to really

27:43

show

27:46

up

27:48

in ways that are needed right now,

27:50

it is a climate emergency.

27:53

And so that became

27:55

really clear to me.

27:57

And then the other is that.

28:00

I left

28:03

or am left feeling

28:05

hopeful in that

28:07

there are amazing people

28:10

all

28:11

over the world

28:13

that are deeply engaged

28:15

in work that is compassionate,

28:18

that's innovative, that

28:21

is across the spectrum of

28:24

new engineering to helping

28:26

people

28:28

navigate the psychological

28:31

challenges that they're facing

28:33

with the grief.

28:34

And so I feel really hopeful and

28:37

yes, there's grief and there's loss

28:41

but there's also a lot of possibility

28:44

before us. And Joanna

28:46

Macey

28:48

has said

28:49

basically this

28:53

uncertainty,

28:55

there's

28:56

possibility, right? There's uncertainty

28:58

we don't know. And then there's possibility

29:01

that gives us hope. So

29:04

I finished the book with

29:06

a sense of urgency but also

29:08

with a feeling of hope.

29:11

Nice.

29:13

You include a fair amount of science in

29:15

the book and I'm wondering what you found

29:17

that was like compelling research.

29:21

Yeah. And actually this

29:24

relates a bit to the event

29:26

that sparked the book. So I want to say

29:28

more about that.

29:31

There were, so one of our board members,

29:34

so I think you also know Sharon, his name

29:36

is Barry Hershey and

29:38

he's a board member of Mind and Life and

29:41

he is a

29:43

filmmaker and

29:44

he was really taken

29:48

quite a few years back or a few years

29:50

back by this idea of climate

29:52

feedback loops. He wasn't familiar

29:54

with it and realized that a lot of other people

29:56

weren't either.

29:59

He produced, he worked with a wonderful

30:02

film team, and they created these free

30:04

films called Climate Emergency

30:07

Feedback Loops. They

30:10

are five short films that are

30:12

freely available. If anybody

30:15

searches it online, you'll be able to find

30:17

them. And they're available

30:20

in 30 languages, subtitles

30:22

in 30 languages.

30:24

And so the book,

30:26

the first section of the book, talks about the science

30:29

of climate feedback loops.

30:31

And so

30:33

I

30:35

was not aware of the climate feedback loops. And

30:37

that's part of

30:38

what also gives me the sense of urgency

30:41

is that,

30:43

very simply put,

30:46

the warming of the Earth is

30:48

contributing to continued warming and

30:50

the real amplification and

30:52

acceleration of the warming.

30:55

So

30:58

I'll give a couple of

31:00

examples, okay? And there are several,

31:03

there are actually

31:05

several climate feedback loops. And there are four

31:08

that we talk about in the book. One

31:11

relates to the permafrost,

31:16

another relates to the albedo feedback

31:19

loop,

31:21

which is basically the melting

31:23

of the glaciers in the Arctic. There's

31:26

the disappearing forest feedback loop.

31:29

And then there's the atmospheric feedback

31:31

loop that relates to the jet stream and

31:34

water vapor and clouds. So

31:36

we don't have time to get into all those. But

31:39

the book explains them. And also these films

31:41

that I mentioned also provide an explanation

31:44

of them. But

31:46

it's really, really cool to understand them.

31:49

Because you get to realize, wait

31:51

a second, that anything we're doing that's

31:55

increasing global warming

31:58

through particularly fossil fuels.

31:59

or cutting down forests is

32:02

a problem and it affects all of us. These

32:06

feedback loops accelerate

32:08

the damage. We

32:11

know that the Arctic is warming

32:13

at unprecedented

32:17

fast rates. It's getting into the 90s

32:20

in the summertime in the Arctic.

32:23

The sea ice is melting. And

32:26

also the permafrost, which

32:28

is land that has

32:31

been frozen for tens

32:33

of thousands of years. Probably

32:36

hundreds of thousands, I don't know, but it's a really,

32:38

really, really long time. It's been frozen

32:41

and what's happening. And in that

32:43

soil are

32:46

animals

32:49

that have died,

32:52

but also a lot

32:54

of plant matter. What's happening

32:57

is when it warms, there

32:59

are these microbes that are accelerating

33:03

the breakdown of the

33:05

land. When that happens,

33:08

it releases methane and also

33:10

carbon into the atmosphere. Then

33:13

that release of methane and carbon

33:15

then contributes to further warming.

33:19

So that's one example of the permafrost

33:21

feedback loop. And

33:24

then the forest feedback loop, I'll just briefly

33:26

say, trees are so important.

33:31

Through the miracle of photosynthesis, they

33:34

release oxygen, they store water

33:36

in their roots

33:39

and their trunks, and

33:41

they're just natural cooling

33:44

beams. They

33:46

just continue to cool the planet and

33:48

they give us oxygen so we can breathe. But

33:51

what's happening is with the warming,

33:54

the global warming that's happening, is that trees

33:57

are dying and they're getting diseases

33:59

and they're burning. burning, which is what we experienced

34:01

in New York,

34:03

and what as a result

34:05

of the fires from

34:07

the forest fires in Canada.

34:10

And so when all of these trees

34:13

are either dying

34:14

or they're burning,

34:16

they are instead of

34:18

storing carbon, all of a sudden they

34:21

are massively releasing carbon. And

34:24

that massive release actually

34:25

contributes to more warming. Amazing.

34:31

Every moment counts really. Yeah. Yeah.

34:35

Shout out to

34:36

Barry really.

34:38

Films are really, really good. Yeah.

34:46

Yeah, everybody should know about climate feedback loops.

34:48

It just changed. It really, once I learned about

34:50

them, it really changed my perspective and

34:53

understanding the science. And

34:56

it's pretty simple

34:59

and yet really profound and speaks

35:01

to the Buddhist teachings on interconnection.

35:06

Well, I've seen that you're applying several different Buddhist

35:08

teachings in the book to help

35:10

people engage with climate change differently.

35:12

Like we've talked a little bit about, not

35:15

in the Buddhist context necessarily at all, but seeing

35:18

progress being made on various engineering

35:21

fronts and other fronts, psychological fronts,

35:24

dealing with trauma. And that helps

35:26

with this feeling of despair that

35:28

can so easily come when

35:31

reflecting on climate change and also different

35:34

practices in a way relating to change

35:36

perhaps or other things.

35:39

So I'm wondering how you might have

35:42

found the teachings empower us to

35:44

actually engage in a way, have

35:47

some resilience and to relate differently.

35:49

Yeah.

35:52

I could speak for myself and

35:55

how they've helped me.

35:56

And I think

35:59

that...

36:01

I, I'll just again speak for myself.

36:07

We are living at a time that

36:09

is really scary and it's overwhelming.

36:15

We can be frozen in

36:17

fear and

36:19

filled with anger. Climate

36:21

is just one of many things that's

36:23

contributing to this, right?

36:26

You know that, that well and,

36:30

but what the,

36:31

what the teachings and what the practices

36:34

have helped me to do

36:36

is to

36:38

not run away or hide

36:41

from these difficult feelings,

36:44

but to rather be with them and

36:47

to learn to metabolize them

36:50

in a way that

36:54

they kind of move through me

36:57

and then kind

37:00

of inspire me to then show

37:02

up in ways that are more

37:04

present and how,

37:07

and looking at ways that I can,

37:10

I can be helpful. So

37:12

metabolizing the difficult

37:16

emotions is definitely a

37:18

big part of the practice.

37:21

And then the other part relates to, to compassion

37:24

and compassion practices that

37:28

really try to, again,

37:31

instead of just being overwhelmed

37:34

by witnessing the suffering of people

37:37

who are

37:38

climate refugees and,

37:41

you know, just, just recently

37:44

this year in the

37:47

September of 2023,

37:50

what did we, there are two back

37:52

to back major natural, there are many

37:54

natural disasters, but like in Libya,

37:57

the flooding of the, of the, of the, of the, of

37:59

the, of the, of the, tens of thousands

38:01

of people who have died in that and then the earthquake

38:04

in Morocco are just

38:06

two examples. I mean there are many

38:09

many others and we

38:11

could just be like our hearts

38:14

could be feel like someone just stepped

38:18

on us. It's just like oh it's

38:20

too much to bear and I

38:23

think that the Buddhist compassion

38:25

practices are really essential

38:27

to helping us just

38:30

hold the suffering

38:33

and to move through and to cultivate compassion

38:37

and you know an open

38:39

heart in in such

38:41

a way that we can

38:44

rise up instead of feeling held

38:47

back.

38:50

Beautiful. I mean compassion is an easy

38:53

thing to understand. Sometimes people

38:57

will put another term on it

38:59

like wise compassion because

39:02

it's easy to think of well

39:06

doom scrolling for example which is a word I didn't

39:08

know what it meant until I was interviewed about it. I actually

39:10

asked the journalist so what is that?

39:14

Of course I do it so I'm

39:16

related right away. Reading

39:18

the news and seeing the same tragic events

39:21

again and again and again but not able

39:23

to like take a moment and not read

39:25

it again and again and again and you

39:27

can see how you're feeling about it because you have to read

39:29

it again and again and again.

39:32

It's tragic it's totally tragic and what

39:36

is happening and you write

39:38

in the book about being a bodhisattva committed

39:40

to serving the environment which

39:42

would mean being able to somehow find a

39:46

kind of balance also maybe some

39:49

compassion for yourself and like take a little

39:51

break you know remember

39:53

resilience and replenishing it's like

39:56

that nurse you know if you

39:58

drown in sorrow. You're

40:00

gonna go go back to bed. You just cannot function

40:03

in a way that's helpful. That's just reality

40:05

and so remembering that

40:07

perhaps or maybe it's Really

40:10

committing to the long haul these things don't happen

40:12

quickly. This change is not gonna

40:14

be sudden and so What

40:17

do you mean about being a bodhisattva

40:19

committed to serving the environment? I

40:24

Yeah,

40:25

and you know, I'd like to expand that

40:27

now say to the environment and really

40:29

all all the beings human

40:32

and non human beings

40:35

It's

40:38

it you know, we're

40:40

we're called to To

40:43

wake up and step up in

40:45

ways that require all of us

40:48

to do that and whatever ways we are able

40:50

to do it

40:53

We have to you know,

40:55

we have to look toward instead of

40:57

looking away From what

41:00

is happening because it needs us it needs

41:02

us to do that

41:04

And I think your your point about

41:06

wise compassion is essential

41:09

It's like yes, we are bodhisattvas.

41:13

We have to

41:18

Look toward lean in

41:20

Extend our

41:22

our arms

41:23

to helping others and

41:25

in order to do that, we have to have

41:28

the the strength and the resilience to

41:30

do that and so we

41:32

have to be wise and how we take care

41:34

of ourselves and How

41:36

we you know make time for rest

41:40

and Be in community

41:43

with one another that

41:44

was another thing

41:47

that I learned in in writing the book And

41:50

I've since learned because I'm actually been working

41:54

Co-facilitating a group here this summer

41:57

in Charlottesville, Virginia

42:00

We've been I'm just been

42:02

feeling a need to get more connected to my local

42:04

community and what

42:07

I what I have been finding is that

42:10

community matters a lot

42:12

and now we can't

42:15

do this alone and

42:17

part of wise compassion

42:20

means

42:21

you know

42:23

Creating and recognizing that

42:25

we are part of community and we need

42:27

community to do what's

42:29

needed right now

42:32

Yes, it's a beautiful vision of what's possible

42:35

as we look to the future and wondering

42:37

if you can share your vision with us

42:41

Yeah, I think it's my vision

42:44

builds on

42:45

what I was just saying is Is

42:51

That more and more

42:53

and more of us

42:56

that are

42:57

on this planet together and

42:59

particularly those of us that are

43:03

privileged and aren't

43:05

directly facing

43:07

trauma

43:08

is that we really

43:11

We wake we wake up and

43:13

we're honest with ourselves how we're living

43:15

our lives and we look at what we can do

43:18

to make a difference

43:20

and that you know, we're mindful of

43:25

Our travels are mindful of

43:26

what we eat

43:28

what we buy

43:31

Who we vote for how

43:33

we invest our money and

43:35

that

43:36

by Living

43:40

more more mindfully and more

43:42

compassionately and Recognizing

43:45

that we are part of this,

43:48

you know amazing whole

43:50

of planet

43:52

earth

43:57

That we're in there together and that there's

43:59

there's possible

43:59

possibilities that it's you know, yes,

44:02

there's going to be there is suffering there's going to

44:04

be more suffering and Yet

44:06

at the same time there's still so

44:09

much uncertainty and so much possibility

44:11

So I'd like to say, you know

44:13

my with my vision is that

44:16

we're we're part of this interconnected

44:19

web and It's

44:21

a web with infinite

44:24

ripples of possibilities

44:30

Well before we close today, I would love for you to

44:32

lead us in a practice of some kind to to

44:35

bring our conversation to an end

44:38

Sure, I'd be happy to do that

44:43

So

44:45

I

44:46

just didn't invite you to

44:50

Just settle And

44:57

feel the gravity You

45:02

Earth

45:04

beneath you Feeling

45:12

grounded with your feet

45:15

on the floor the earth

45:21

Your

45:21

sits bones You

45:29

We've been talking about quite a lot

45:31

of Heavy

45:35

kinds of stuff

45:37

so I invite you to take

45:39

a few

45:40

full cleansing breaths

45:45

And really allowing yourself to release

45:47

on the exhale You

46:05

Breathing in

46:07

fully the oxygen

46:09

that

46:12

comes from plants and trees.

46:23

Breathing out and

46:25

releasing

46:27

carbon dioxide

46:31

that then breathes life

46:33

to the plants and trees. You

46:42

have this beautiful interrelationship

46:46

of inter-breathing,

46:49

interbeing

46:51

with trees and plants. Breathing

46:53

out and releasing life to the plants and trees.

47:21

Being aware of

47:23

the wholeness of how

47:26

we, our bodies,

47:31

are

47:32

the elements.

47:38

The air we breathe.

47:56

And our body and ourselves

47:59

need water.

47:59

water, like 80% water,

48:04

when

48:04

water comes from the rain,

48:11

stored in lakes,

48:15

roots of trees, rivers.

48:20

It's bringing awareness to the water

48:22

that makes up your body.

48:51

So besides drinking water, we

48:54

also eat

48:57

bringing awareness to how

49:01

our bodies are nourished by the Earth.

49:08

The different foods that we eat. Our

49:26

bodies are Earth bodies.

49:51

And the element of fire

49:54

not only helps

49:56

us to cook our food, but

49:59

also

50:01

The natural

50:02

element of sunshine helps us

50:04

to grow the food we eat.

50:09

And also sunshine is really vital

50:12

to our own health and well-being.

50:17

We're transforming vitamin D

50:20

into essential

50:23

nutrients

50:24

in our bodies.

50:31

Just overall how sunshine

50:33

affects our mental health

50:38

and our outlook on life. Just

50:53

sitting with for a few moments is an awareness

50:56

of the integrated whole of how

51:02

you are

51:06

and you need the

51:08

natural elements.

51:30

Moment by moment and breath by breath.

51:45

I will close with an ikasatva

51:48

vow that

51:52

I learned from my

51:54

friend and teacher,

51:56

Lama Willow Slice Baker.

52:03

Gaia is in peril. I

52:08

vow to protect her.

52:15

Climate change is relentless.

52:19

I vow to end it.

52:26

Gaia's teachings are infinite.

52:29

I vow to hear.

52:36

Awaken love

52:38

is inconceivable.

52:41

I vow to embody it.

52:52

Thank you.

52:56

Thank you so much for the beautiful meditation

52:59

and thank you so much for being with us

53:01

today. Thank you

53:03

Sharon. It really is

53:04

an honor and a privilege to be here

53:07

with you.

53:10

May you be well.

53:18

Hey folks, thanks so much

53:20

for listening. If you'd like to

53:22

get yourself a copy of A Future

53:24

We Can Love, you can visit

53:27

mindandlife.org. If

53:30

you'd like to learn more about

53:33

Sharon's work, her many offerings, or

53:35

her forthcoming book Finding Your

53:37

Way, visit SharonSalzberg.com.

53:42

This has been the Metta Hour podcast

53:46

from the Be Here Now Network. May

53:48

you be safe, may you be

53:50

happy, may you be healthy,

53:53

and may you live with

53:55

ease.

54:15

We have this incredible online

54:17

course, Alan Watts and Ram

54:19

Dass, first time ever, the two OGs.

54:23

It's Presence in the Way,

54:25

the Dharma of Alan Watts and

54:27

Ram Dass. And it's a four-week

54:30

course and it's got wonderful themes

54:32

that we all are dealing with on a day-to-day

54:35

basis. Wonderful talks

54:37

from both of their perspective, Alan

54:39

and Ram Dass, on separation,

54:42

on money and livelihood,

54:44

on the Tao, the

54:47

way, the balance,

54:50

how do we get it, what is it.

54:52

And then the last week is Love and

54:55

Transformation. Just go to ramdass.org

54:59

slash dharma, D-H-A-R-M-A, ramdass.org

55:04

slash dharma.