0:01

This show is sponsored by BetterHelp.

0:05

It's almost the holiday season, and for

0:07

many people, that means an extra dose

0:09

of anxiety or sadness. Adding

0:12

something new and positive to your life can help

0:15

counteract some of those feelings.

0:18

Therapy can be a bright spot amidst

0:20

all the stress, giving you the tools

0:22

to manage the chaos of the season.

0:25

It's a great way to develop coping skills, alter

0:28

negative emotions, and so much

0:30

more.

0:31

If you're thinking of starting therapy, give

0:34

BetterHelp a try. It's entirely

0:36

online and designed to be convenient,

0:39

flexible, and suited to your schedule.

0:42

Find your bright spot this season with

0:45

BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com

0:47

slash meta today to get 10%

0:50

off your first month. That's BetterHelp,

0:53

H-E-L-P, dot com

0:56

slash meta.

1:09

Hello,

1:09

and welcome to the Metta Hour

1:11

podcast with Sharon

1:14

Salzberg. I'm Lily Cushman.

1:16

I produced this

1:17

podcast, and

1:19

we're returning today to our

1:22

ongoing mental health series

1:25

here on the Metta Hour. For

1:27

episode 227, a

1:30

conversation with Harvard-trained

1:33

psychiatrist, Columbia-trained

1:36

Buddhist scholar, the

1:38

assistant professor of clinical psychiatry

1:41

and integrative medicine at Weill Cornell

1:44

Medical College, and

1:46

the founder of Nalanda Institute,

1:49

Joe Luizzo. Joe

1:52

has 40 years

1:53

experience studying both

1:56

Eastern and Western approaches

1:58

to mental health and...

1:59

And we've been working on lining

2:03

up this interview for him to be part of the mental

2:05

health series for quite some time. I'm

2:07

so happy it finally came together. The

2:10

conversation starts with Joe's background,

2:13

how he came to the field of mental health,

2:16

and also just how that field has evolved

2:18

to where we are now. Both

2:21

he and Sharon discuss a lot of interesting

2:23

nuance to mental health

2:26

care plans, and

2:28

the stigma around treatment,

2:31

as well as how much the

2:33

events on the larger world

2:36

stage affect the personal.

2:38

And also Joe's impetus

2:41

for founding Nalanda Institute,

2:44

all the great work that the institute is doing.

2:47

There's also some fun backstory here

2:49

about this pivotal role that Joe

2:52

played in Sharon's early teaching

2:55

career.

2:56

And as always,

2:57

some of the tools that

2:59

we can apply to learn

3:01

how to work with our minds, and

3:04

the compassionate

3:05

approach to the human

3:07

condition.

3:08

And as always,

3:09

you can check our show notes

3:12

for some different mental health resources,

3:15

links that our different guests

3:17

on the series have recommended,

3:19

and you're in for a great conversation.

3:22

Before we get to that short announcement,

3:26

Sharon has a bunch of virtual

3:28

events she's doing in the coming months. I

3:31

encourage you to check out her teaching schedule.

3:35

And one of those is happening

3:37

on November 13th, a

3:39

six-week online course that

3:42

is being hosted by

3:44

Tricycle Online. This

3:47

is the real-life course, and this

3:49

course is really a deep dive into the teachings

3:53

of Sharon's book by the same name that

3:55

came out earlier this spring. So

3:57

if you are looking for a way to learn more about the future of the world,

3:59

to

4:00

go deeper with that book, these

4:03

teachings of working with states

4:05

of contraction and isolation and

4:08

moving into expansion, this

4:11

course may be for you. So

4:13

you can visit SharonSalsberg.com and

4:17

there's information to register

4:19

there.

4:21

So let's get to today's episode. Joe

4:24

Luizzo and Sharon Salzberg.

4:30

Hello,

4:36

Joe, welcome to the podcast. Thank

4:40

you, Sharon. So lovely to hear your voice.

4:42

It's

4:42

lovely to hear yours. How are you?

4:44

Where are you recording from today? From

4:47

Manhattan, from our home

4:50

in Lenape land, overlooking the Hudson.

4:52

Nice.

4:53

So we

4:55

are recording this in October of 2023. There's

4:59

a tremendous amount of suffering in the conflict

5:01

of the Middle East.

5:03

It feels important to mention as it's on so

5:05

many people's hearts and minds.

5:07

And, you know,

5:08

I realize that there are many people who just

5:10

in their daily lives feel as if they're in a war

5:13

zone. That's important to

5:15

acknowledge as well. It's good

5:17

to come together today and especially

5:20

in these times of

5:22

tremendous conflict and

5:25

distress, talk about how we can

5:27

support ourselves and ultimately

5:29

support one another in this

5:31

very complicated world. So Joe,

5:34

you and I have known each other for a long time now.

5:36

You've been in the field of mental health

5:38

for

5:38

much of your career. You're

5:40

a psychiatrist and a clinical researcher

5:42

with a focus on integrating

5:45

neuroscience with contemplative practice. And

5:48

since this episode is a part of what

5:50

we're calling our mental health series here on the podcast,

5:54

we'll be centering around those topics. So

5:57

I'd love to hear more about your journey in this field.

5:59

field and how you came to be interested in psychiatry.

6:03

Okay. That's a,

6:06

a big question. Um,

6:09

well, although,

6:10

so I think I've mentioned that I consider

6:13

my,

6:13

myself kind of the product of a double blind

6:16

experiment, right? Because my

6:18

parents, uh,

6:19

took different

6:21

avenues or paths in responding

6:23

to the challenge

6:25

of being immigrants in the

6:28

U S Italian background.

6:31

Uh, and my dad became,

6:34

uh, kind of assimilated,

6:36

uh, became a psychiatrist.

6:39

Um, so sometimes I say my, my profession

6:41

is an inherited condition. Uh, but, uh, my mom chose to be

6:44

a teacher and, uh, and well, he kind

6:46

of gave up his

6:49

spirituality, um, and became more sort of science

6:52

oriented.

6:57

Um, she stayed very close

6:59

to her, uh, Catholic roots was very quiet about

7:01

it, but it clearly, uh, I sort of followed their trajectories

7:03

and where

7:05

he got more and

7:08

more burnt out. He loved his work. It was really

7:10

fascinating having people come and go in the hot, in his home

7:14

office, I could see them really.

7:17

Sitting in there talking, I thought, well, what a nice

7:19

way to work. You, you know, you just spend your time having

7:21

conversations and everybody seemed

7:24

to enjoy it. Um,

7:27

my, at the

7:30

same time, I think the emotional stress slowly burned

7:32

him out. And, uh, where's

7:35

my mom, uh, seemed to get better

7:37

with age. So I thought, well,

7:39

there must be something

7:41

in what she's doing. I want some of what she has, right?

7:44

So it was pretty early in my teens. I

7:47

started reading young and felt like

7:49

there must be some way to reintegrate spirituality

7:53

or contemplative, uh,

8:00

life back into

8:03

modern life and psychotherapy seemed

8:06

a kind of potential bridge.

8:08

So that's kind of how

8:10

I got started. And

8:14

yeah, then the rest of the journey really kind

8:16

of got more complicated from there.

8:20

Well the field of psychiatry itself

8:22

has evolved so much in the past decades

8:24

and it's still evolving. Sure, you've seen

8:26

lots and lots of changes when

8:29

you first began studying. So I wonder if

8:31

you can speak to that. And certainly there have been

8:33

a lot of changes in terms of the

8:35

incorporation or acceptance of contemplative

8:38

practice.

8:40

Yeah, I mean I have to say overall for my

8:42

field, you know, the time that

8:44

I became aware of psychiatry

8:47

and psychotherapy in

8:49

the 60s and 70s,

8:51

it was a very vibrant time for the field.

8:54

There was the sort of influx of psychoanalysis.

8:58

People were writing, you know, like Eric Fromm

9:00

and Victor Frankl and you

9:03

know, Rallo May, there was a real

9:05

interest in popular health,

9:08

kind of

9:09

the culture,

9:11

and infusing some kind

9:13

of existential

9:14

wisdom

9:16

or larger kind of positive

9:19

outlook into our way of

9:22

life. And I would say

9:25

pretty much starting about as I went

9:28

into

9:31

medical school and residency,

9:34

the field started shifting very much

9:36

in the opposite direction. It's exactly

9:38

where I didn't want it to go. Instead

9:42

of getting more involved in kind

9:44

of channeling spiritual

9:47

contemplative wisdom practice

9:49

and ethics, it

9:52

got more and more materialistic,

9:54

more and more reductionistic. And

9:57

I think unfortunately my colleagues

9:59

had a lot of problems. have kind of taken, you know,

10:01

I don't want to be too dramatic about

10:04

it, but I really feel like they've trashed the

10:06

discipline by kind

10:08

of in a way, you know,

10:11

you could say getting to an amort

10:14

of the quick fix and the

10:16

psychopharmacology. You could also

10:18

say selling out in a way because we know that of

10:20

course that's an industry. You

10:24

know, I'm hoping I do think one of the

10:27

hopeful things about the confluence

10:30

of Western psychotherapy

10:32

and, you know, largely

10:35

Buddhist contemplative practice, but contemplative

10:38

practice in general, is

10:41

that it is kind of bucking the trend.

10:44

And that plus the new discovery

10:47

of neuroplasticity, which is kind of

10:49

given a little more sciencey

10:53

kind of grounding or

10:55

credibility to the simple

10:57

thing of talking to others or doing things

11:00

like meditating. That's

11:02

also helping. So my hope is

11:04

that the field is going to have a little renaissance

11:06

and move more toward,

11:09

you know, back

11:12

toward the psyche, you know, toward the

11:14

spirit and the human, you know, mind

11:18

and soul and away from drugs.

11:21

Yeah.

11:23

I'm very curious about these times

11:25

and whether, you know, when

11:29

there are just devastating things happening in

11:31

the world. Do you find that

11:33

people are somewhat less likely to

11:35

try to get personal help for their own dilemma

11:38

in these tumultuous times because

11:40

it feels like their own suffering

11:42

just cannot measure up to the awful,

11:45

awful experience others are having?

11:49

I mean, of course, I may have like a kind of

11:51

biased perspective because

11:53

people, you know, who come

11:56

to me are self-selected.

11:59

But I feel it's

12:02

more like the opposite, that people bring

12:06

their personal angst and

12:10

part of their personal angst is the collective

12:12

angst. So that I do think

12:14

that there's a kind of

12:15

breaking down of the sense of the barriers,

12:18

I think the hyper-individualism of

12:20

the U.S. culture

12:22

and especially kind of the, since

12:25

the baby boom era, the whole kind

12:28

of last decades, people

12:31

are becoming more aware of

12:34

our interconnection with others and

12:36

the need for the culture

12:39

to change. I mean, of course the culture has also gone

12:41

over the cliff in so many ways, it's become

12:44

much clearer that

12:48

our problems are not just personal. Right.

12:52

But I think

12:54

that people are bringing in their

12:56

issues with the

12:59

collective traumas that are happening and how it activates

13:02

them.

13:04

And whether that be in the realm of racial

13:07

trauma, gender, patriarchy,

13:10

which is on the rise,

13:14

or it be an ethnic conflict,

13:18

a religious conflict,

13:21

these themes are coming up.

13:23

And to me, that's very

13:25

welcome because I do think that

13:28

we've overestimated in

13:31

modern psychotherapy and psychology,

13:34

as in modern science and culture in general,

13:36

we've overestimated how separate

13:39

we are. And

13:43

like the Buddhist wisdom is

13:45

kind of being acknowledged that

13:48

we're really such communal

13:51

connected animals

13:53

that we're

13:56

suffering with

13:58

one another and not just with our own.

13:59

You know family you're faking

14:03

And on that note, I'm gonna ask you a question I've

14:05

asked for probably more than 30 years

14:08

when I've been on different panels and

14:10

such with psychotherapists

14:14

Which is basically the question

14:17

is is your Envisioning

14:20

like a care plan for a client

14:22

a patient. Does it ever

14:24

involve like Service

14:27

or taking care of others or finding

14:29

a way to help someone else

14:32

Yeah, I mean absolutely in the sense that first

14:34

of all, I mean I think our health and

14:37

well-being one of the beautiful things about

14:40

you know the the

14:42

cross-validation like the last I

14:44

would say in the last two or three

14:46

decades a lot of domains

14:50

in science and neuroscience and

14:52

psychology have been validating

14:55

Sort of ancient contemplative spiritual

14:57

values so

14:59

the whole idea of the importance of love

15:01

and of loving connection

15:04

whether it be with individuals or community

15:06

is

15:07

Really

15:09

becoming you know increasingly kind

15:12

of something we can talk about and something people are

15:14

aware of and so a

15:17

lot of what I do Is has to do

15:19

with helping people?

15:21

Work on their relationships with others in the

15:23

world to try to take some of

15:25

the

15:26

alienation and and trauma

15:29

Out of it and to try to have

15:32

develop more empathy More,

15:34

you know skillful compassion

15:37

not necessarily wise compassion as they said not

15:39

necessarily sentimental but

15:43

recognizing how

15:44

important it is to

15:47

Try to shift the quality of our engagement

15:49

with others. And so yeah part of that might be really supporting people in their

15:53

Wish to make a difference,

15:55

you know, so it starts with

15:57

taking care of themselves themselves,

16:00

obviously, right? But, you

16:03

know, pretty soon that's like learning because

16:06

that's so interconnected with relationships.

16:08

It's learning how to

16:09

navigate complicated relationships

16:12

with partners, with kids, with loved

16:14

ones. But then we're

16:17

talking about, you

16:18

know, how

16:19

do you engage with the world, with the institutions

16:21

around you, with your professional life.

16:24

And

16:24

I do think that

16:27

for me,

16:29

change really starts to get to happen

16:31

and get more positive

16:34

when people realize

16:36

that

16:38

contributing, being part

16:40

of,

16:41

you know,

16:42

even the change you want to see to

16:44

use the cliche, right, to

16:46

trying to kind of commit

16:48

oneself to, you

16:50

know, the kind of, you

16:53

know,

16:54

doing something helpful

16:56

for oneself, really helpful in the sense of not the

16:59

way we live, not just simply fitting into

17:01

the cog of the machine that's heading

17:03

over the cliff, but really trying

17:06

to resist that and find ways of being

17:08

in community

17:10

or at work or

17:13

with, you know, in

17:15

your career

17:16

that are adding to a

17:18

greater sense of responsibility

17:23

for the culture we live in, for

17:25

the planet we live on. You know, so

17:27

I think that that's, I'm not saying,

17:29

you know, I'm not one for

17:32

plans because I think it's a journey and

17:34

I tend

17:37

to follow the lead of, you

17:39

know, where people are evolving. But I

17:41

think when things are

17:44

really clicking,

17:46

when I know we're on the right channel

17:49

is when people are thinking about

17:52

how to heal their relationships with

17:54

others and with the world and

17:57

I'd say the planet and history and all

17:59

of those things.

17:59

That's beautiful.

18:01

And

18:06

historically, in a way,

18:08

connected to that, because treating

18:10

one's mental health sometimes feels removed

18:13

from day-to-day life, which it's really

18:15

not. But historically, there's a tremendous

18:17

amount of stigma around mental health care. Even

18:20

in term mental health is now one

18:22

of my new bugaboos, because I was

18:25

talking to somebody the other day and I was

18:27

saying, really? We're not talking about mental health.

18:29

We're talking about feeling a lack

18:32

of mental health

18:34

or a great imbalance in our mental state,

18:36

but we can't call it anything other than mental health

18:38

because it wouldn't look pretty

18:41

enough or something. So historically,

18:43

there's a tremendous amount of stigma around

18:45

mental health care, which feels like

18:47

it's shifting in a big way, perhaps, in

18:50

current time with Gen Z. What

18:52

do you see in that regard?

18:55

Well, yeah, I think this

18:58

part of our hyper-individual culture

19:00

has been to kind of pretend that we're all

19:02

separate and that

19:06

our happiness depends

19:09

on our actions alone. And

19:13

the flip side of that is our

19:15

suffering is separate and our suffering

19:17

depends on somehow it's our

19:19

fault. You know what I mean?

19:22

If we're suffering in mind

19:24

or heart or body or whatever nervous system.

19:28

And so I think that unfortunately,

19:32

one of the side

19:35

effects of our hyper-individualist

19:38

culture and of our kind of Calvinist,

19:41

like capitalist culture of what real happiness

19:43

is, is

19:47

crushing it in the world, being super successful,

19:51

having your ego blown up and your bank account

19:53

blown up. I think

19:55

is that people who don't really...

19:59

Oppressed by that system

20:01

because they just don't they're not in the club

20:03

where they're not in the pre whether it's racially gender-wise

20:07

or culturally

20:09

whatever or People who

20:11

don't really want that like who don't

20:13

have it in them to go out and crush things,

20:16

you know

20:19

Get stigmatized and so I think

20:21

first of all that there's there's a lot of research

20:24

in terms of modern stress psychology

20:26

and and

20:29

You know and positive psychology from both

20:31

sides to show that

20:33

a lot of things we diagnosis mental disorders

20:35

Quote-unquote are actually the function

20:38

are actually products of chronic exposure

20:40

to stress and trauma And that

20:42

chronic exposure to stress and trauma isn't

20:44

just individual Childhood

20:47

it's also social environment cultural

20:49

environment so

20:53

So I think what what a lot

20:55

of people are really waking up to is

20:57

challenging this whole notion of sort of blaming

20:59

the individual Mental

21:03

health in a way has this tendency to label and

21:07

personalize to privatize suffering

21:11

as if

21:12

It's in you and and to add as you

21:14

pointed out this negative valuation like

21:17

if you're sensitive if you're the canary in the coal mine

21:19

and you're not happy you're not thriving

21:22

in a dysfunctional violent

21:25

world Then there's something wrong with you.

21:27

You know, I mean So

21:29

I think I have strong feelings about

21:32

this. I mean I think that that

21:35

the tide is turning and

21:37

People are becoming much

21:40

more aware

21:41

That you know of how

21:43

sensitive we are to the toxic

21:46

elements in our culture in our lifestyle

21:48

in our environment And

21:51

and part of that is less I do think in the

21:53

younger generation like I know with my kids I have

21:55

to You know

21:58

one 18 year old to 120 one

21:59

year old

22:01

and their generation is much more

22:03

upfront about, yeah,

22:06

I got this and I got that and I'm taking this and

22:08

I'm taking that and here's what my

22:11

family situation is. So I think

22:13

that there's both a

22:15

kind of greater acceptance that

22:19

we're human and we all have vulnerabilities

22:23

and also a recognition that part of

22:25

the problem is that the way we're supposed

22:28

to function is not healthy

22:31

or is violent or is harmful. And

22:33

so like in school is a perfect

22:35

example, like we were just talking

22:38

to somebody who works at the Columbia Health Center,

22:41

Columbia University Health Center mentioned that

22:43

there were four suicides.

22:44

Yeah.

22:46

And why is that? Like

22:48

is it those kids have a mental problem?

22:50

I mean, it's very clear

22:52

that we're not creating an environment

22:55

where people feel safe and have

22:57

joy in quite the opposite.

23:01

And then you put that together with, hey,

23:03

we're actually destroying the planet. You

23:06

kind of the picture, it's becoming clearer that

23:10

there's something fundamentally wrong with the way

23:12

we've been living and what we expect of people

23:15

and that the people who have for a long time

23:17

been gaslighted or stigmatized

23:19

as, hey, what's wrong with you? We

23:24

now can maybe see more clearly,

23:29

we're just

23:30

often in many ways impacted

23:33

negatively with the canaries in the coal

23:35

mine of a system that was harmful and

23:38

maybe also really

23:41

kind

23:43

of earth conscientious objectors too in a

23:45

way, like just don't wanna be part of something

23:48

that really is kind

23:50

of not very

23:51

constructive or humane.

23:54

Well, there's so much blame that's so unjust.

23:57

Like I think of the... I'm

24:00

thinking of Diego Perez or young Pueblo,

24:03

his pen name who was on the podcast.

24:06

And he said that the most traumatic thing

24:09

he had lived through in his life

24:12

was not a kind of sudden sharp

24:14

incident. It was kind of the chronic poverty

24:17

within which he grew up. And

24:19

that left a real mark. So I just

24:22

now was thinking, listening to, we

24:24

blame the kid

24:27

even for being poor and sort

24:30

of looked down on them and somewhat

24:33

disdainful of them. And then we blame the

24:35

now older kid for responding

24:38

to that trauma, taking drugs

24:40

or whatever they're doing is, in his case it was

24:43

that, until he began meditating. And

24:45

so, you know, and

24:47

it's just a strange environment,

24:50

instead of saying, this is a survivor,

24:52

you know, look at that.

24:54

Exactly. I totally agree. And

24:56

I think unfortunately, my profession

24:59

has, I'm

25:00

talking about psychiatry in particular,

25:03

although I think generally this

25:05

is true of most mainstream mental health, has

25:08

kind of been, has drunk the Kool-Aid

25:11

and has gone along acting

25:13

as if labeling people as if

25:16

it's really true that they have ADHD

25:19

or they're oppositional or they're, you

25:21

know, the story

25:23

begins

25:25

and ends that they're an addict or whatever,

25:28

or they have depression.

25:30

And really are not looking at

25:32

the context of the

25:36

larger cultural, social,

25:39

familial kind of legacies

25:41

that really had, we know

25:43

from research, like that has so much to

25:46

do, like are many, are really primary

25:48

inputs in terms of our development. So

25:52

you know, and you see it in little ways, just in terms

25:54

of,

25:55

you know, young kids, you

25:58

know, kids going into, into.

25:59

middle school and high school. I have a lot

26:02

of clients who have kids at

26:04

that age. And the pressures,

26:07

the system

26:11

puts such a

26:13

burden on them of

26:15

hyperperformance

26:18

and if they're staying

26:21

up all hours and

26:23

if they happen to be boys who are

26:25

not nerdy and normal physical

26:32

animals

26:36

or girls

26:38

who want safe connection

26:41

with their peers or whatever, the

26:44

system is really telling

26:46

them there's something wrong with them. And

26:51

it's really compounding the problem which I think

26:53

is part of the reason why

26:56

we have such a quote unquote mental health

26:58

crisis.

27:01

So in 2007, it seems like

27:04

a million years ago, you founded

27:06

the Nalanda Institute for a template of science,

27:09

educational nonprofit. So if

27:11

you can tell us more about that work.

27:14

Yeah, so Nalanda

27:16

Institute is the kind of the

27:18

outcome

27:20

or the fruition of my path,

27:24

my sort of odd path

27:27

or whatever road not

27:29

taken of trying to bring

27:32

together mental health

27:35

and these kinds of considerations of what's

27:38

the same way of living

27:42

together with the

27:44

Buddhist tradition, particularly I was raised

27:47

in the Tibetan Buddhist tradition.

27:49

And hence the word Nalanda

27:52

refers to the world's

27:55

first university, Nalanda

27:57

University in North India,

27:59

which

28:00

gave rise to the form of Buddhism

28:02

that later spread to Tibet and hence,

28:04

you know, the Dalai Lama and other Tibetans

28:07

often think of Tibetan Buddhism as Nalanda

28:10

tradition. But

28:12

I found it, I was at the time I was, I mean,

28:16

after many years of having to keep my interests

28:18

a secret from my mental health peers because

28:20

they would diagnose me and put me in, whatever.

28:24

You know,

28:27

given John Kabat-Zinn

28:29

and some basic research, the discovery

28:31

of neuroplasticity and everything, by

28:35

the time, in the

28:37

90s, Buddhism

28:39

became popular and mindfulness

28:41

became an acceptable or

28:43

even cool thing in mental health.

28:48

And at the time I was at Columbia, I was

28:50

doing graduate

28:53

studies in Tibetan and I was

28:55

also in the psychiatry department. And

28:58

they asked me to found a center in,

29:01

I call it the Center for Meditation and

29:03

Healing at Columbia.

29:06

You know, but very soon I realized

29:09

that

29:09

the corporation, you know, the

29:11

hospital was not a place where

29:14

we could have the kind of space, safe

29:18

space to explore

29:20

all the things that we need to

29:22

explore and to connect in the ways we need

29:24

to connect.

29:25

I sometimes, you

29:27

know, remember and kind of

29:30

the rec, remember the irony that

29:32

in the psychiatry department I could teach

29:34

meditation because now it was cool, but

29:36

I couldn't teach the Dharma. I

29:39

couldn't

29:39

teach ethics or philosophy or psychology

29:42

or Buddhism.

29:45

In the religion department I could teach ethics and

29:47

philosophy and psychology, but I couldn't teach people to actually

29:49

do anything about it, like meditate or change

29:51

their life. So that just gives

29:54

you a flavor for how, you know, even in the

29:56

sort of very fancy academic,

29:59

you know, institution.

29:59

institution, there

30:01

really wasn't room for

30:03

the heart or the whole human being to

30:06

learn a new way of being human.

30:08

So that's part of why I founded the Institute,

30:10

was to create a space that was

30:12

sort of off the grid a little bit

30:15

of the corporate culture

30:18

and the kind of knowledge production engines and

30:21

all of that that have

30:23

taken over academia. And

30:27

yeah, the Institute has

30:29

been a great gift because it's been

30:31

a kind of open community where

30:35

people like you come and teach and so

30:37

I get to sort of continue to

30:40

connect and dialogue with like-minded

30:44

peers who are trying to make a

30:46

shift in our way of being. And

30:50

also obviously people, students

30:52

from all different backgrounds who really don't

30:54

just want

30:56

to do sort of simple

30:59

mindfulness, right? Like

31:01

the kind of the pop vanilla,

31:04

you know, want

31:07

to go deeper or want to learn the psychology

31:09

or want to really learn the ethics or

31:11

the, you know, be in a community

31:14

where they can really

31:19

experiment with their way of being

31:21

and connecting. And

31:24

so we have really, as you know, like

31:27

awesome students who are really

31:30

kind of looking for something

31:32

that's

31:35

heading in a different direction, let's say.

31:38

That's fantastic. I just want to go

31:40

further without giving you due honor for the tremendous

31:43

influence you've had in my own life, which

31:46

was low these many

31:48

years ago. I don't know if we'd ever

31:50

met actually, but I

31:52

had a friend who

31:54

was coming out of a kind

31:57

of long hospitalization for psychiatric

31:59

conditions. at Columbia

32:01

and

32:03

I was looking through some

32:06

booklet or something like that and I saw you were teaching

32:08

an aftercare program in meditation

32:12

and I wanted to be able to

32:14

accompany my friend to these classes. He very much

32:16

wanted to go and but I didn't want

32:18

to have to pay because it was quite expensive

32:21

since it wasn't covered by my insurance and so I

32:24

called you and left you a message and I said

32:27

you know

32:28

I'm Sharon Selferg and I've been taking a long

32:30

time myself but I wondered

32:32

how you would feel about my coming along with my friend

32:34

and auditing this class. I'm so happy you're

32:36

offering it. It seemed

32:38

like great set of skills for people to have

32:40

as they were leaving more of a

32:42

crisis situation and coming back into the

32:45

world and left your

32:47

message and you called me back and you said

32:49

to me, why don't you teach him? And

32:52

I thought, oh

32:54

I could teach him.

32:56

So I had a friend over me in an apartment

32:59

in New York and I spent

33:01

six months in New York and had this

33:03

little sitting group. It's like four or

33:06

five people which was included as friends and

33:08

it

33:09

changed my entire life. So thank you. I'm

33:13

wondering is that more

33:15

common now that people might

33:18

be offered those kinds of tools?

33:22

Yeah and thank you so much for reminding

33:25

me of that and you know it's

33:28

an honor to be involved in any way

33:31

in your trajectory because we're

33:33

all so grateful to you for the

33:36

voice and the humanity you brought to

33:38

the world

33:40

but specifically to the culture of contemplative

33:45

life in the US. Thank

33:48

you. You know yeah

33:51

I do think that part of where we live

33:54

at the Landa Institute and I think this is not

33:56

just unique to my community or our

33:58

community but it's true of the

34:00

movement in general is that

34:02

there is a kind of blurring because

34:04

there's so much adoption in

34:07

mental health of mindfulness and

34:09

now self-compassion and maybe even compassion

34:11

practices. You

34:14

know that

34:17

there's a lot of people who are not mental health

34:19

professionals who are either

34:22

yoga teachers or meditation

34:24

teachers or coaches who use these

34:26

things or teachers who use

34:28

these things or human

34:31

resource people who use them. And

34:33

so there's a much more of a, one

34:36

of the beautiful things about the culture of

34:39

contemplative

34:42

practice

34:44

is that it is much more empowering. It's

34:47

not so professionalized. It's

34:49

not so like, you know, hey, you

34:51

have to have these things

34:53

on the wall. And

34:56

so I do think that a lot

34:58

of our students who from many different

35:01

backgrounds and not just mental health

35:03

backgrounds

35:04

are finding ways

35:06

to be helpful and to bring

35:09

what they've learned in their own life about

35:11

contemplative practice to others. And

35:14

we very much support that

35:16

because you know, it can't just be a professionalized

35:20

thing like we all need this medicine

35:22

has to be.

35:24

We all have to learn, you

35:25

know,

35:26

how to

35:28

share what we, what's helped

35:30

us. I mean, like there's so much help

35:33

is needed. Sure.

35:37

And that actually opens up

35:39

the next thing I was going to ask you, which is an impossible

35:42

question, but maybe it makes it more

35:44

specific. So it's

35:46

almost like the contrast between

35:49

Buddhist psychology and

35:52

more Western psychology is an approach,

35:54

but one of them, one of the differences

35:56

that I get asked that,

35:59

you know, all the time. I bet not as much as you. One

36:02

of the differences would be just that.

36:04

It would be, okay, what can I as an individual

36:08

do today about

36:11

my life and a real sense of tools?

36:14

I have some basic tools that

36:17

I can use. Another distinction,

36:20

I don't think it's a distinction because

36:23

I know much more about Buddhist psychology

36:25

or Eastern psychology than Western. But

36:31

as I was taught as a meditation

36:33

student ways

36:36

of sitting with painful feeling, whether it's

36:38

emotional pain or physical pain, at

36:41

the same time not being defined by the

36:43

pain, not judging myself

36:45

for what I was feeling. And

36:47

because of that non-judgment, being

36:49

able to look more deeply into it. So if I was

36:51

feeling a great

36:53

deal of craving and desire and I could

36:56

sit with it and look at it, maybe I'd find

36:58

a lot of loneliness inside of it or sitting

37:01

seething with anger. And

37:03

I could sit and be with it. I'd find kind

37:05

of a helplessness, sense

37:07

of helplessness that was

37:10

at its core. No matter what I was feeling, being

37:12

able to see directly the impermanent nature

37:15

of it. I know that doesn't

37:17

mean invalidating the feeling, but it's

37:19

creating a different context within which

37:22

we experience it, a context of awareness

37:25

and

37:25

compassion. So

37:27

I'm wondering if that resembles

37:29

the process of healing from the

37:31

Western psychotherapeutic perspective.

37:34

Yeah.

37:35

I mean, I think that there's

37:39

so many, the traditions are so incredibly

37:42

kind of uncannily similar in a lot of ways.

37:44

And yet obviously there's real differences.

37:49

So I think that

37:52

you can often, one

37:54

way to think about how

37:58

the two relate is that in

38:00

a way, therapy is kind of like

38:02

an assisted meditation. You

38:04

know what I mean? Like you have somebody else who's kind of

38:06

helping you get into a meditative relationship

38:09

with yourself and teaching you

38:12

how to be with and observe and tolerate

38:14

your own suffering. And

38:17

then hopefully, what often

38:20

doesn't get emphasized is that you learn

38:22

how to do it yourself. And

38:24

of course, the beautiful thing about the contemplative traditions

38:26

is

38:27

much less stigma or pathologizing.

38:32

Suffering is really much more

38:35

embraced, welcomed as not

38:37

abnormal, something to be feared and

38:40

labeled and killed off,

38:44

but as just part of reality that maybe

38:47

can be approached in a way that is generative

38:50

or that is healing, that

38:52

gives us information.

38:55

So there's that a depathologizing

38:58

and kind of fundamentally positive

39:01

message in the Buddhist psychology

39:03

that we can really deal with our

39:06

suffering, whatever it is. And we can also

39:08

transform it and grow beyond

39:11

it or tolerate it in a way that allows

39:13

us to still thrive. And

39:17

then all the tools that come in the Buddhist

39:19

tradition to help us do that. It's

39:21

like

39:22

instead of just being a patient, quote

39:24

unquote, that there's somebody who's

39:26

not active or not an agent,

39:29

Buddhist psychology

39:32

really prepares you to actively engage

39:34

with your suffering, which we're not all ready

39:36

to do all the time. So

39:38

the nice thing about Western psychology is

39:40

there's a lot more personalized,

39:43

individualized help and support

39:46

than you often find in Buddhist communities

39:49

where it's more about teaching

39:51

large groups or large groups

39:53

kind of being human

39:56

together, trying to deal with human suffering as

39:58

a collective condition.

40:01

So, you know,

40:04

it's nice, you know,

40:06

to have that kind of individualized

40:08

attention to how did you suffer

40:11

and

40:12

the kind of support

40:15

is something that

40:16

might only be found in the Buddhist medical system

40:19

rather than in Buddhist psychology per

40:21

se.

40:23

But you know, I think,

40:26

you know,

40:28

the two traditions really

40:31

reinforce each other in a lot of ways because

40:34

I do think that,

40:37

you know, the emphasis

40:39

on kind of going deeper into

40:42

the personal psyche with

40:44

help from others, like having a really

40:47

close, I think of therapy as having

40:49

a really close relationship with

40:51

your teacher. Yeah, yeah. You know

40:53

what I mean? And some of us are lucky enough to have

40:55

that, but most people would study the Dharma

40:58

in Asia as in the

41:00

West

41:01

just have classes.

41:03

And then it never gets very individualized.

41:06

And so

41:08

I also think that there's something unique

41:11

about the Western

41:13

approach to understanding our

41:17

childhood and the early development,

41:21

you know, that does help

41:24

kind of share the suffering

41:27

a little bit, like the specifics of the suffering,

41:29

the specific story. But again, a good teacher

41:31

would do that anyway. A good Buddhist teacher would do

41:33

that. So yeah,

41:36

I think the two, you know,

41:40

overall, I would say what Buddhism brings

41:42

is a much more optimistic

41:45

relationship with suffering and

41:47

a much more optimistic sense

41:49

of our capacity to hold it so that

41:52

it doesn't have to be like, gee,

41:54

you know, I can't, I

41:56

can't handle this. I have to, only my therapist

41:59

can handle it. And also

42:02

it brings, to make that kind

42:04

of a reality, it

42:07

brings the tools and the trainings that

42:10

strengthen us so that in a way we're

42:12

almost like our own little mental health professional

42:15

in our own mind, which

42:19

has always been true. One of the beautiful things about

42:21

Buddhist

42:23

learning is that medicine

42:26

and healing has always been seen as

42:28

part of the basic training, because

42:32

there was an understanding

42:34

that to be a meditator, to be a healthy,

42:37

successful, contemplative,

42:41

finding happiness or whatever,

42:44

awareness, you needed to know

42:46

about your health and heal yourself.

42:49

And I think the same relationship exists

42:51

in terms of the

42:54

learning how to deal with your own negativity.

42:57

But

42:59

the optimism comes from

43:00

a sense that, again,

43:05

there's something about the Western medical model,

43:07

which tends to kind of pathologize

43:10

and other eyes or

43:15

demonize in a way, like suffering as if, oh,

43:18

you've got this, like a cancer. Yeah.

43:21

You know, and we

43:23

just gotta get it out. Like, you can't

43:26

have that in your mind or you have it in mind, oh, poor you, you

43:28

have it in your mind. Whereas in Buddhism, there's

43:31

really a sense that all mental

43:33

suffering is just part of human life. And

43:36

it's not so bad. You

43:38

know what I mean? You

43:41

can accept it and be in relationship

43:43

with it, whatever it is, however dark, however

43:46

convoluted, it isn't

43:49

something that's beyond you or

43:51

that your panel is over. Yeah,

43:54

your awareness is stronger, your compassion is actually

43:56

stronger when

43:57

it's applied, but we should talk sometime. demonizing

44:00

cancer. It

44:03

is another topic for sure.

44:08

All of this is really fascinating because I hadn't

44:10

really thought about modern

44:12

age. I think more about, as you

44:14

say, my experience has been a very close

44:17

relationship with each of my teachers for over 50 years

44:19

now, which is

44:22

an amazing blessing. It's

44:24

uncommon. These days, of course, they encounter people

44:27

who's first

44:30

and maybe long-term

44:32

acquaintance with meditation practices

44:35

through an app. I was just

44:38

talking to somebody the other day who works on such

44:41

an app and saying how,

44:43

at one point

44:46

I was instructed when I was guiding meditation

44:49

on it that I had to

44:52

say a few words and then every time I was becoming

44:55

silent, I had to then say, now it's your turn to do this.

45:00

I said, I don't really want to do that

45:02

because I'm myself

45:05

meditating, I'm engendering to

45:07

the best of my ability a certain energy. I don't

45:10

want to interrupt that. I'm happy to say in the

45:12

beginning when I become

45:14

silent, that's your signal to put

45:17

into practice what I've just suggested or something.

45:19

This is a stage where I don't want to keep saying it. They

45:22

said to me, you don't understand. People keep

45:25

writing and saying things like, my app is broken.

45:27

It's not working right at this minute. I was

45:30

like, oh my gosh, that's different. Also,

45:39

there's nothing that is

45:42

comparable until we can do it ourselves,

45:45

as you say, to somebody loving

45:47

you no matter what. There

45:50

they are. You're just closing whatever

45:53

and they're still there, which

45:56

is incredible.

45:59

The thing about all these many things, which as

46:02

far as I know, have

46:03

come from the

46:06

Eastern world, you know, self-compassion,

46:10

mindfulness, emotional intelligence

46:12

actually, and how much

46:17

the Eastern

46:20

reality in terms of people

46:22

meditating on their own

46:25

would be enhanced by either a personal

46:28

relationship, for some with a therapist,

46:30

for some of the community, with

46:33

a teacher certainly if that becomes available.

46:36

And it really is like worlds coming together.

46:39

And I want to just, in

46:42

the few minutes we have left, talk about

46:44

compassion and

46:46

compassion for others, not only

46:48

for ourselves. Something

46:53

about, or making

46:56

assumptions about anxiety looks

46:58

like, or what depression looks like, when in reality,

47:01

when these

47:02

are challenges

47:05

that affect every population, regardless

47:08

of circumstance, and we're kind

47:10

of siloed from that.

47:13

And if we could get that

47:15

perspective, things

47:17

would be different. How do

47:19

we get that perspective?

47:23

Yeah.

47:24

Well, that's, so, you

47:26

know, I do think

47:29

that there's gifts

47:31

that each of these traditions, Western

47:34

psychology, Buddhist psychology, are

47:38

offering one another, that something, there's

47:41

going to be an enrichment. And one

47:43

of my initial

47:44

sort of

47:46

intents or fantasies

47:48

or whatever, like visions of

47:51

how these traditions could

47:54

come together is,

47:56

you know, and you have a

47:57

lot of therapists getting cranked out of different traditions.

48:00

different training programs.

48:03

And if they all really were deeply

48:05

embedded in

48:08

the culture and practice and wisdom

48:11

of contemplative traditions, they

48:13

could really be like conduits for

48:16

this into the lay world

48:18

so that people

48:20

didn't have to

48:21

get an app or whatever.

48:25

But I

48:27

think in terms of the

48:29

importance of where we

48:31

are in terms of understanding

48:34

the compassionate approach

48:37

to the human condition that

48:39

is one of the most beautiful elements

48:41

of Buddhist culture is that, yeah,

48:46

I think that part of the pathologizing

48:50

of things like anxiety or depression or

48:52

trauma or whatever is that you

48:54

feel like you have to keep it secret

48:57

and other people aren't having it. And

49:00

so what could be a great

49:02

source of

49:05

meaningful connection or even

49:07

just understanding and compassion, like why

49:09

is that person so cranky

49:11

today? Well, maybe

49:14

they have some of the same whatever anxiety

49:16

or depression that I am. And

49:19

I don't need to feel like I'm being personally

49:21

threatened, I

49:23

can have empathy.

49:25

But I think

49:27

having that sense

49:29

of overcoming the

49:37

privatization of mental

49:39

suffering and recognizing that

49:42

we're all in it together in

49:44

a way, part of modern,

49:47

I don't even think it's

49:49

modern. I think a lot of explanatory

49:52

cultural sense systems

49:56

tend to create and deal

49:58

with our

49:59

are

50:00

suffering or fear or

50:02

whatever by demonizing other people and

50:05

saying, you know, they're

50:07

the bad ones. You know, they're the

50:10

not so human ones. And

50:12

in the Buddhist culture, I feel like,

50:15

you know,

50:16

part of the way that this is,

50:19

you know,

50:20

very powerfully addressed

50:23

or engaged is to sort of recognize

50:25

that people are good. Basically,

50:28

everybody's good.

50:29

Like, think about how we all come out of the womb,

50:31

right? I'm not gonna hurt

50:34

anybody. You

50:36

know,

50:36

but when we're controlled

50:39

by destructive emotions that we don't

50:41

understand or delusions,

50:44

confusions that we don't understand

50:46

and we can't work with, we can't

50:48

manage, we do harmful

50:50

things to ourselves and others. And so

50:53

the focus there becomes on understanding

50:56

not only do I feel compassion for

50:58

people who

51:00

are

51:00

obviously weighed down

51:03

by suffering

51:05

because I can feel like,

51:07

yeah, we're all human, we all suffer together so

51:09

that my suffering can connect me to others

51:12

and create a sense of commonality

51:14

or solidarity.

51:17

But also to recognize that

51:19

a lot of the horrible things that are happening

51:22

in the world are happening because people

51:24

never learned how to understand and deal with

51:27

their destructive, you know, the

51:30

confusions and destructive emotions

51:32

in their own mind. And so

51:34

really having this, you

51:37

know, bigger perspective,

51:40

you know, that, you

51:42

know, learning to understand

51:45

our minds and

51:48

work skillfully with our suffering

51:51

isn't

51:52

a luxury, it's

51:55

an absolute necessity for all of us. And

51:57

it isn't a private struggle like

51:59

mine. personal, I have to deal with my anxiety.

52:02

It's a collective,

52:04

you know,

52:05

challenge that if we

52:07

don't all learn how to deal better

52:09

with these confusions

52:11

and emotions that afflict us all, that,

52:15

you know, we're not going

52:17

to be living in a mess in a war zone in a

52:19

zoo. And so

52:22

I think that, that in that

52:24

sense, it becomes more like, you

52:26

know, the culture of Buddhism

52:28

very specifically pinpoints

52:31

the parts of our nature

52:34

that are likely to cause us suffering

52:36

and does so in a way that

52:40

create, that doesn't shame or

52:42

blame or personalize and say,

52:44

oh, only you have this or only they have this,

52:47

but says, we all have this and we better

52:49

come together to work together

52:52

on getting over it. Right. And so

52:54

there's a kind of very powerful force

52:57

of like wisdom or

53:00

connection that could really be much

53:02

more than any, because it has

53:04

to do with such fundamental human qualities

53:06

as, you know,

53:09

you know,

53:10

narcissism or

53:13

rage or panic

53:16

or trauma

53:18

that it really could cut across

53:20

a lot of the

53:23

boundaries of identity

53:25

that often, you

53:27

know, end up separating us and blocking

53:29

our empathy. So I think that

53:32

compassion is, you

53:35

know, the mind false revolution was big. I think

53:37

the compassion revolution is in a way even

53:40

bigger because, you know,

53:43

it's, well, I mean, I love

53:45

the way you teach compassion Sharon and not

53:47

many people teach it that way, that

53:50

it has the essence, you know, I mean, that

53:53

mindfulness has the essence of compassion in it.

53:55

And that attention isn't, it's not just about paying

53:58

attention. It's about paying attention. with

54:01

a heart, with a kind of quality of

54:03

care. And that

54:06

way we understand in a way mindfulness

54:08

is a form of compassion. And then there's

54:10

this

54:12

larger sense of stretching

54:15

our compassion for ourselves to include

54:18

all living beings, that there's a really

54:20

important

54:21

culture shift that has to happen.

54:23

And yeah,

54:26

that you can still, looking

54:28

at the world today and probably any day. We

54:31

see, this is one thing modern culture

54:34

hasn't tried. Modern

54:38

culture has tried to get rid of our contemplative

54:40

traditions, right? And break away from them.

54:43

And I think that's part

54:45

of the problem that we

54:47

need to kind of put them back in the

54:49

center of

54:51

our values and practices.

54:55

So maybe

54:56

that's the, I

54:58

was gonna ask you

55:02

about next developments, what you saw

55:04

coming. So maybe that is what you see coming,

55:06

which would be really great. Like I

55:08

know psychedelics are a big conversation

55:11

these days and as

55:14

this next generation more and more

55:16

de-stigmatizes mental

55:18

health, maybe calls it something else, more

55:22

and more.

55:24

We're heading for

55:25

maybe really revolutionary times and

55:28

certainly pioneering times.

55:31

Yeah, I mean, I think that,

55:33

I mean, as far as psychedelics go, I

55:35

do think that any way

55:37

that we

55:38

can discover

55:41

the power

55:43

of our minds or different

55:45

capacities within our minds that

55:48

are not normally accessible to us

55:51

is a value, any experience that does

55:53

that. But also there's the risk and I've

55:55

spoken to a number of friends who

55:57

are leading researchers in

55:59

this area. and they're concerned too

56:01

about

56:02

the where culture tends to fetishize pills

56:05

and Things outside

56:07

of our mind, you know, and so

56:09

from that point of view, I'm not so sure

56:12

like it's not the panacea

56:14

Because ultimately like, you

56:16

know Our brain

56:18

is is a psychedelic factory

56:22

And if we're not learning how to live in it and use

56:24

it effectively we can pump whatever we

56:26

want into it But

56:29

it's we're not gonna get what we

56:31

want. Yeah, but

56:33

I think that in terms of you

56:36

know future developments,

56:39

I mean I do think that

56:43

people becoming more savvy

56:45

about what happiness is and

56:48

about what real health and well-being

56:50

is and understanding that it's

56:53

that it's you know something

56:56

that

56:57

We need to be we need education

56:59

and training for you know that we need

57:01

to invest in it We can't it's not it's got

57:03

to go beyond the app ultimately. Yeah,

57:06

I think these these are

57:08

extremely important and and

57:11

I and you know, I think

57:13

what I have to say I'm not

57:16

a pessimist because You

57:18

know, I remember when you and I started

57:21

out like nobody knew about any of this stuff Yeah,

57:23

you know I mean and it was really weird, you know

57:25

people thought like what? What are you interested in? You

57:28

know, so The

57:30

fact that the culture has taken up

57:33

these practices and this you

57:35

know entertaining or you

57:38

know exploring these other ways

57:40

of looking at life and and

57:42

and and How to cope with suffering

57:44

and how to how to cultivate real happiness Is

57:48

is like really a miracle and it shows you

57:51

what's possible

57:52

In terms of cultural

57:55

evolution

57:56

And I think you know, so I

57:59

do think that

57:59

that on

58:02

the horizon I see more than the

58:04

psychedelics per se,

58:10

I think the, like in the

58:12

Indian tradition, they ultimately at a certain

58:14

point abandoned psychedelics, they used to use them. And

58:17

then they decided to go with breathing. So

58:21

the next

58:23

generation, like in my view, as

58:25

part of the Alanda tradition, there's an understanding

58:28

that there's a mindfulness working

58:32

with our minds, compassion

58:34

working with our hearts. And then there's these embodied

58:36

approaches that

58:39

involve speaking to our

58:42

more primal layers of

58:46

the nervous system, more usually unconscious

58:49

with breathing or movement or image

58:51

or poetry.

58:55

And that's,

58:57

I think, a next wave, is looking at embodiment

58:59

because one

59:02

of the new research areas that's

59:07

kind of shifting the field as well is

59:09

this notion, is to sort of research on trauma

59:12

and understanding, again, how much

59:15

of our suffering is really,

59:17

individually and collectively, isn't like

59:20

a diagnosis,

59:21

you know, like,

59:24

you have a neurotransmitter imbalance,

59:27

one of my least favorite

59:28

fantasies, but

59:31

it's like, no,

59:34

you've been exposed to chronic stress or you've been exposed

59:36

to chronic trauma. And

59:39

that's

59:40

where the embodied approaches

59:43

maybe add

59:44

a little extra oomph,

59:46

right? And I think if

59:50

you're living a monastic life, it's

59:55

sort of taken care of

59:57

because you're, I know you talk

59:59

a lot about, walking meditation, right? And

1:00:02

you're living a life that just behaviorally,

1:00:04

like you have rituals, you

1:00:07

have community, you have

1:00:09

chanting, you know, you have a lot of things

1:00:12

that are speaking to that older

1:00:14

part of your nervous system. But

1:00:16

I think of the embodied practices as

1:00:18

ways that you kind

1:00:21

of create the monastery in your

1:00:23

own life or in your own community

1:00:25

by working in

1:00:27

very consciously

1:00:30

to

1:00:31

help your body feel safe. And

1:00:35

I think that's gonna be a big horizon

1:00:38

as well.

1:00:40

Yeah, so I mean, I think there's just

1:00:43

like, you know, the incredible

1:00:47

uptake and foment that

1:00:50

you and I have seen, I mean,

1:00:53

I expect it's gonna

1:00:55

continue at pace, if not even faster.

1:00:59

I mean, I think that another

1:01:01

area, you know, in

1:01:04

the sort of growth area or important

1:01:07

area in my view is

1:01:09

because Buddhism has had

1:01:11

a special affinity with science

1:01:13

and psychology because it's always been among

1:01:16

the spiritual traditions, some

1:01:19

of the most focused

1:01:21

on science and psychology. But

1:01:24

I think bringing the other traditions, the

1:01:26

other world contemplative traditions

1:01:28

or indigenous traditions into the dialogue

1:01:32

is also gonna be a growth area because

1:01:34

it

1:01:35

isn't,

1:01:37

we need to not just, you

1:01:39

know,

1:01:41

give ourselves new awareness and

1:01:43

skills, we need to kind of understand

1:01:45

our conditioning and update, like

1:01:47

the Dalai Lama says, your grandmother's religion,

1:01:50

you know, you need to really understand

1:01:54

how our culture was conditioned and

1:01:56

how maybe our early childhood, if we didn't

1:01:58

grow up with the Dharma.

1:02:05

And of course there are many cultures where

1:02:09

contemplation comes

1:02:13

in a different cultural matrix.

1:02:15

You know, Sufism or

1:02:17

Kabbalah or whatever it is, you know,

1:02:19

Naoism. So

1:02:23

I'd love for those traditions to

1:02:25

be as

1:02:27

engaged in dialogue with

1:02:29

Western science and psychotherapy

1:02:31

as Buddhism has been. Right?

1:02:34

Because really this needs

1:02:36

to be a global conversation and a multicultural

1:02:39

conversation.

1:02:42

It's wonderful. So thank you

1:02:44

so much for this incredible conversation.

1:02:46

Before we close today, I would love

1:02:48

for you to lead us in a practice with some kind

1:02:50

to finish our time together.

1:02:53

Okay. Happy to do that. And partly

1:02:56

what I'll do is

1:02:59

use my, just

1:03:01

to get myself in the spirit of things, use my Tibetan

1:03:03

bell. I hope that the sound

1:03:06

will work. Yeah.

1:03:14

So please do get settled and

1:03:17

try to feel support

1:03:19

of your chair, cushion, pillow, floor

1:03:22

as metaphorically

1:03:25

the support of the planet

1:03:27

earth that connects us all. And

1:03:30

try to lean into it and feel in contact

1:03:33

or feel you belong to that support

1:03:37

to that planet and

1:03:39

all the life that it holds.

1:03:42

You included

1:03:44

maybe looking at your body, the

1:03:48

rest of your body and trying to invite

1:03:50

it to settle in, right?

1:03:53

To just

1:03:54

try to get aligned

1:03:55

with that

1:03:58

sense of the grounding of our body.

1:03:59

your seat,

1:04:03

letting go of whatever

1:04:07

tensions or restlessness and maybe doing

1:04:09

any shifting of your body that might

1:04:11

help.

1:04:13

And maybe now be aware of the breath

1:04:16

and invite the breath

1:04:19

in. Maybe taking a nice long inhale

1:04:22

and with

1:04:23

the breath inviting your awareness

1:04:25

to gather into your

1:04:28

felt sense of being in

1:04:31

a living body.

1:04:37

So as you're observing the in

1:04:40

and the out, taking

1:04:42

especially the opportunity

1:04:45

of the in-breath to gather the

1:04:47

attention from past

1:04:49

and future, from this

1:04:52

and that, and to bring

1:04:54

it into a felt sense of inner

1:04:57

connection with

1:05:01

where you feel your body breathing.

1:05:04

And maybe looking inside the body

1:05:06

for feeling

1:05:08

inside the body for a place

1:05:10

where the sense

1:05:12

of the breath

1:05:14

calls to you, where there's

1:05:16

a kind of inviting

1:05:19

sense of grounding or rest

1:05:22

or stability or where you can sort of

1:05:24

kneel

1:05:25

into the pulse of

1:05:28

your life breath.

1:05:33

And as you maybe invite

1:05:36

your mind breath at a time

1:05:38

to settle

1:05:42

more and more into that

1:05:44

sensation of

1:05:46

feeling

1:05:47

in touch with

1:05:49

the physicality of your breath, the

1:05:53

felt sense.

1:05:57

You also try to

1:06:00

Turn your awareness to who or

1:06:03

what is noticing the breath.

1:06:06

How, right? Where

1:06:08

is the awareness?

1:06:10

Where is the observer? Where is

1:06:12

the part of you that's

1:06:17

consciously attending?

1:06:19

And maybe I'll invite

1:06:21

you to

1:06:23

sort of let go of some

1:06:25

of the normal

1:06:27

chatter that might be in the mind.

1:06:30

The normal flow or clutter of thoughts

1:06:34

and images and emotions and try to move

1:06:36

toward whatever

1:06:38

space of

1:06:40

greater clarity or stillness.

1:06:44

Greater

1:06:44

awareness.

1:06:47

Like you might find in there.

1:06:50

To make that kind of your new resting

1:06:53

place in the mind.

1:06:55

Have a really light touch with all

1:06:57

the stuff that's floating through your mind.

1:07:02

And then we're going to maybe just briefly

1:07:04

now take that

1:07:06

whatever inner space,

1:07:08

greater grounding like your

1:07:10

awareness. Your

1:07:14

clear awareness grounded on

1:07:18

the felt sense of the breath and

1:07:21

felt sense of the breath

1:07:23

grounded on your

1:07:26

felt sense or physical sense of

1:07:29

being grounded on the earth.

1:07:33

We're going to try to take that

1:07:35

inner space of greater, more

1:07:37

stable grounded awareness and

1:07:39

maybe

1:07:40

open it into a workspace or a

1:07:42

learning space and into that space

1:07:45

right in the mind's eye. Try to invite

1:07:47

someone who,

1:07:49

the image of someone who sort

1:07:52

of has what you want, who inspires

1:07:55

in you a sense of hope

1:07:58

admiration.

1:07:59

inspiration,

1:08:02

that there's a better way to be human,

1:08:04

to be in a human mind-body

1:08:07

nervous system. And

1:08:10

that can be a teacher, it can be a relative,

1:08:12

it can be a figure that you only

1:08:14

know through media or through literature

1:08:17

or spirituality. Just

1:08:20

try to have that being in mind as

1:08:23

a kind of role model or guide and try

1:08:26

to really welcome and engage that

1:08:29

being in your mind's eye

1:08:32

and sort of admire

1:08:33

their way of what it is that

1:08:36

about them that you want, you know, what

1:08:38

is their way of being their peace or presence

1:08:40

or kindness or whatever.

1:08:44

And also now notice them regarding

1:08:47

you with a sense of welcome,

1:08:50

with care, with sense of possibility

1:08:52

and maybe seeing through whatever

1:08:55

insecurities or suffering

1:08:57

you have to a deeper

1:09:00

potential within you for you to

1:09:02

have those same qualities that

1:09:04

they embody. And

1:09:07

try to sort of use their interest,

1:09:11

their care for you, their faith in you, their

1:09:13

confidence in you, to

1:09:16

use what they see in you to try to see in yourself

1:09:19

that

1:09:20

deeper

1:09:21

Buddha nature, if you will, or

1:09:26

potential for clarity and care deep

1:09:29

in the heart of your being. And

1:09:32

maybe ask for their help

1:09:33

leaning into that,

1:09:35

living from that,

1:09:37

integrating that more into

1:09:39

your life to work with the sufferings

1:09:42

that you have, to work with the sufferings

1:09:45

of others and to kind

1:09:47

of

1:09:48

bring a greater

1:09:50

sense of wise care

1:09:52

to your life and

1:09:54

to the world.

1:09:56

And then really knowing that this is just

1:09:58

a taste, ask for your love, and to be

1:09:59

a part of that. that

1:10:00

mentor to be part of your path

1:10:03

to be accessible in your heart

1:10:05

and imagine they melt into your heart. And

1:10:09

they're always sort of merging

1:10:11

with your potential, connecting

1:10:14

you to your potential so

1:10:18

that, you know, recalling them helps you taste

1:10:20

that. Now maybe just turn

1:10:23

back to checking in with

1:10:25

your mind and body how this brief practice

1:10:27

of mentor bonding

1:10:30

has

1:10:32

landed with you. Any

1:10:34

thoughts or feelings? Maybe anything

1:10:38

positive dedicate to your

1:10:42

journey or study and practice

1:10:45

for your own sake and for the sake of all those

1:10:49

around you, the whole world. And

1:10:52

maybe coming back to just the simple physicality

1:10:54

of your breath. And,

1:10:59

you know, as I ring, let's

1:11:01

close this practice.

1:11:12

Thank you so much for the beautiful meditation

1:11:14

and thank you so much for being here today.

1:11:16

You're such a tremendous resource

1:11:19

in this field and I appreciate

1:11:21

you sharing with us today and

1:11:23

everything else you're doing. And so I'd like to point

1:11:26

our listeners to your books as

1:11:28

there's some great resources there. In addition

1:11:31

to the numerous articles you published in

1:11:33

peer reviewed publications, your

1:11:36

books are boundless leadership, sustainable

1:11:39

happiness and advances

1:11:41

in contemplative psychotherapy. Thank

1:11:43

you so much. Thank

1:11:45

you, Sharon. A real joy to be with you. Be well.

1:11:53

Hey, folks, thanks so

1:11:55

much for listening. We would not

1:11:57

be here if you learned for your

1:11:59

wonderful. presence, attention, and

1:12:02

listening. If you'd like to

1:12:04

learn more about Joe's work or

1:12:06

to get a copy of one

1:12:08

of his wonderful books, you can

1:12:10

visit nalandainstitute.org.

1:12:12

N-A-L-A-N-D-A

1:12:14

institute

1:12:18

dot org. And

1:12:20

for all things Sharon, books,

1:12:23

online classes, to get

1:12:24

a copy of her Finding

1:12:27

your way, you can visit Sharon

1:12:30

Salzberg dot com.

1:12:32

This has been the Met Hour

1:12:35

podcast on the Be Here

1:12:37

Now Network.

1:12:39

May you be safe,

1:12:40

may you be happy, may

1:12:43

you be healthy, and may

1:12:45

you

1:12:45

live with ease.

1:13:07

This show is sponsored by BetterHelp.

1:13:10

It's almost the holiday season, and

1:13:12

for many people that means an extra dose

1:13:14

of anxiety or sadness. Adding

1:13:18

something new and positive to your life can help

1:13:20

counteract some of those feelings. Therapy

1:13:24

can be a bright spot amidst all the stress,

1:13:27

giving you the tools to manage the chaos

1:13:29

of the season. It's a great

1:13:31

way to develop coping skills, alter

1:13:33

negative emotions, and so much

1:13:36

more. If you're thinking of

1:13:38

starting therapy, give BetterHelp a try.

1:13:40

It's entirely online

1:13:43

and designed to be convenient, flexible,

1:13:46

and suited to your schedule. Find

1:13:48

your bright spot this season with BetterHelp.

1:13:51

Visit BetterHelp dot com slash meta

1:13:54

today to get 10% off

1:13:56

your first month.

1:13:57

That's BetterHelp. H E L

1:13:59

P. dot com slash

1:14:02

method.