0:12

Growing up in the Maryland suburbs outside

0:14

of d C, Broadway was

0:16

just far enough away to seem like

0:18

another world, a magical

0:21

one. So it's no surprise

0:23

that some of my fondest memories are

0:26

of the train trips i'd take with my parents

0:29

to go and see Broadway shows.

0:31

First was the musical Barnum

0:33

starring Jim Dale. Joined

0:36

the third just like hi Wan

0:39

when I was a killed.

0:42

After that, I think it was Annie. I

0:45

don't mean anything by you.

0:49

Both were great shows, but the

0:51

trip we took in February

0:54

was next level. We

0:57

were going to see a show that was nothing

0:59

short of an event. I

1:02

loved Andrew Lloyd Webber's musical

1:04

Cats even before I saw it,

1:07

and not in an ironic way. I

1:09

played that original Broadway cast album

1:12

until the vinyl almost melted. The

1:15

song memory instantly

1:17

unforgettable junior

1:22

Face. My

1:26

friend Mario and I would listen to

1:28

it over and over on the stereo

1:30

in his family room, and when

1:33

Betty Buckley would hit that big note, I

1:35

would grab the nearest sofa pello

1:37

and bite it.

1:47

Look, I was only thirteen years old. I

1:49

honestly didn't know how else to channel

1:51

the urges it tapped into. When

1:56

I finally saw the show as a much more

1:58

sophisticated four year old, my

2:01

expectations were actually exceeded.

2:04

That's set, the costumes,

2:07

and that dancing. My

2:09

parents and I sat in the very last

2:11

row of the balcony, so the cats

2:13

who came into the audience didn't come anywhere

2:15

near us. But so what, It

2:18

was still impossibly exciting.

2:20

Afterwards, I went back home to Bethesda,

2:22

Maryland with an official cat's sweatshirt,

2:26

the one with the two yellow cat eyes on the

2:28

back. I wore that sweatshirt to

2:30

Pile Junior High almost every day

2:32

for the rest of the winter. I

2:34

ended up writing a letter to every member

2:36

of the cast twice. I

2:39

only received a couple of responses,

2:41

but I was absolutely thrilled that

2:44

one of them was from Mr Mustaphel's

2:46

himself, Tim Scott, this

2:49

dancer. When he did twenty

2:51

four consecutive weets, he

2:54

took my breath away. I didn't

2:56

know that those wild spins were called forwetas,

2:59

or even how spell the word. All

3:01

I knew was that I was watching someone defy

3:03

the laws of physics. Tim

3:06

Scott's letter to me was short, but gracious.

3:09

I was just so happy that he answered.

3:12

But back then I had no idea of

3:15

the offstage drama that was quietly

3:17

building for Tim Scott and for

3:19

many in the cast of Cats, for the

3:21

Broadway community at large, and

3:24

especially for the gay men who were

3:26

in essential part of that community.

3:28

AIDS was discovered first and young homosexual

3:31

meant there is no cure and it is often

3:33

fatal. By the fall

3:35

of two when Cats opened

3:37

on Broadway, AIDS had become

3:40

a health crisis. By

3:42

the end of the decade, it would claim the

3:44

lives of over one hundred thousand

3:47

Americans and would devastate

3:49

the arts world. In the original cast

3:51

of Cats alone, AIDS would

3:53

cut down four dancers at

3:55

the very top of their careers and

3:57

in peak physical form. The

4:00

tragedy of the whole thing, isn't it. That's

4:02

a microcosm of the big picture.

4:04

You've got to show that's about youth and vitality,

4:07

and these are people who were taken down

4:09

in the prime of their lives. This

4:11

is the story of one of those dancers.

4:14

It's a story of talent, beautiful,

4:17

beautiful dancer. You can't imagine

4:19

all of the tricks that he did. It was just

4:22

absolutely incredible. It's a story of

4:24

dreams I'll never begin, he said,

4:26

you know what, I just want to be the best dance so

4:28

I could possibly be and be on Broadway.

4:31

Most of all, it's a love story.

4:34

One night he turned and looked at me, and

4:36

I looked back at him, and there was this long,

4:39

meaningful moment. So I like

4:41

to say that I fell in love with

4:43

him when he was dressed as a cat from

4:47

CBS Sunday Morning and I heart

4:50

I'm Morocca and this is

4:52

mobituaries, this

4:55

moment. Timothy Scott,

4:57

February

5:00

eight, death of

5:02

a dancer. My

5:13

parents splurged and they brought me the five

5:15

dollar souvenir programs and inside

5:18

there's an autograph best

5:22

Ken page. Oh my goodness, oh

5:25

wonderful look at that. And

5:27

I had to thank you for stopping on Seventh

5:29

Avenue when it was really cold in February

5:33

signing my souvenir program. Uh, we'll

5:35

see, we didn't know it, but this day was gonna happen.

5:40

I'm talking to well, really gushing

5:42

over actor Ken Paige, who

5:44

played the role of Old Deuteronomy

5:47

in the original Broadway cast of Cats.

5:58

When I saw Ken Paige and Cats, I

6:00

was already a fan of his from the musical

6:02

review ain't misbehaving. I'm

6:04

going right now and

6:07

write you

6:13

might know Ken Paige best as the voice

6:15

of the evil Oogie Boogie in Tim Burton's

6:17

The Nightmare Before Christmas. It's

6:20

good book and

6:24

attention now, bogie

6:27

Man. But I'm talking to Ken

6:29

today because of his connection to

6:31

CATS co star Timothy Scott.

6:34

You see, Cats wasn't the first time Ken

6:37

and Tim worked together. They

6:39

both began their professional stage careers

6:41

as teenagers at the legendary

6:44

St. Louis Municipal Opera Theater

6:46

commonly known as the Muni, the

6:49

oldest and largest outdoor musical

6:51

theater in North America. He

6:53

was in the dance ensemble and I was in the singing

6:56

ensemble. He danced. I don't say I moved

6:58

well, and I will never be At this day. There's

7:00

a beautiful fountain between a rehearsal space

7:02

and the backstage, and he was sitting up

7:04

at the top and the water was sort of running

7:07

through his feet and everything. And he said

7:09

to me, he said, you know what, I just want

7:11

to be the best dance so I could possibly be

7:14

and be on Broadway. And I said,

7:16

yeah, me too. I want to be I want to be on Broadway

7:18

too. You know, I was eighteen,

7:21

so he must have been probably seventeen.

7:24

As it turns out, their dreams of Broadway

7:27

were not far fetched. Timothy

7:32

Scott Schnell was born on September

7:36

in Morton Grove, Illinois, a suburb

7:39

of Chicago. Tim had something of

7:41

a late start. A lot of dancers

7:43

start training as early as four years

7:45

old. Tim Scott didn't start taking

7:47

dance lessons until he was a teenager,

7:50

but it was clear from the get go he

7:53

was un natural. He went straight

7:55

from high school into show business.

7:58

After the Muni, Tim Scot moved

8:00

to New York City. Success came

8:03

quickly. Broadway impressario

8:05

Michael Bennett cast Tim in

8:07

the first international company of a

8:09

chorus line.

8:14

Soon after, Tim was touring nationally

8:16

in Bob Fosse's smash musical

8:19

review Dance Him. We

8:21

Got Spent Sleeps joke Scott Whils

8:23

another incredible bonny gigs,

8:25

but I am not allowed to mention on television.

8:29

Tim was what's called an ensemble

8:31

dancer. Back then, they were called

8:33

gypsies, which actress Bonnie

8:35

Franklin defined at the nine Tony

8:38

Awards maybe I'd better explain

8:40

to the audience at home and

8:43

that the term gypsy lovingly

8:45

applies to all danswers in the Broadway

8:48

theater. They were called that because

8:50

they traveled from company to company,

8:52

from chorus line to chorus line, constantly

8:55

auditioning for their next gig. This

8:57

was and is the life of a dance

9:00

sir. In

9:07

Tim toured with the popular comedy

9:09

Mine duo Shields and Yarnell.

9:12

Yes, and this was the time when mimes could

9:14

be superstars. To

9:16

be a Pepper Pepper

9:19

all you gotta do. The next

9:21

year, Tim danced on a ceiling in

9:24

a big Dr Pepper commercial. Yeah.

9:28

Then in came

9:30

the casting call for Cats.

9:33

I think we all had a sense that it was a really

9:35

big deal. We didn't really know what

9:37

the show is about, you know. I asked

9:40

my agent, so, what can you tell me what it's

9:42

about? And she goes, Cats, and

9:44

I'm like, yeah, but what's the

9:46

store And she goes, it's about cats. That,

9:49

my friends, is the one and only Betty

9:51

Buckley, the woman who caused me

9:54

to bite that sofa pillow all those years

9:56

ago when she hit that note,

10:03

Oh I love that. When I first met you

10:05

and you told me that story. I was so touched

10:07

by that. That's amazing to me, so

10:10

great. She was called in for the pivotal

10:12

role of Grizabella the Bedraggle

10:15

to pass her prime glamour cat.

10:17

And so I went into audition and

10:20

they told my agent that they

10:23

weren't going to consider me because I

10:25

radiated health and well being and they

10:27

wanted someone who radiated death and dying.

10:30

Lucky for us, she got the role, joining

10:33

a cast that included Ken Paige

10:36

and Tim Scott. So the first

10:38

day of Cats, I walked up to him and I

10:40

said, well, I guess you're officially one of

10:42

the great best dances on Broadway, and

10:44

particularly in that role. That was

10:46

a very, very coveted role. Tim

10:49

was cast as Mr Mustapheles,

10:52

the conjuring cat. Here he is

10:54

singing, we can die

10:58

like a flying tuck me. In

11:01

a show that was focused on spectacular

11:04

musical numbers and not a whole

11:06

lot on plot, Tim's role was

11:09

one of the most challenging. It required

11:11

a dancer with extraordinary technique,

11:14

but Tim had something more than that. He

11:16

had presence. He had

11:18

these amazing eyes. His eyes

11:21

were like blue beans. He also

11:23

had this sort of mysterious nous about

11:26

him and he was always there. The

11:28

first time I saw him dance, I found

11:30

it un Kenny that I had this rush

11:32

of joy through my body

11:35

that was completely spontaneous and it

11:37

was not an intellectual experience

11:39

of like, oh that guy dances really

11:41

well. It was like this

11:44

kind of breathless, exquisite

11:46

joy watching him

11:48

and I was like, who's that kid,

11:50

you know, I mean, why is he able to do

11:53

that? Okay? Sidebar

11:55

Cats is more than anything a

11:57

dance show for the actors who

12:00

had limited background and dance, like

12:02

Betty Buckley and Ken Paige. Rehearsing

12:04

for Cats was like Marine Corps basic

12:07

training. The Winter Garden Theater

12:09

was there Paris Island. There

12:11

were five of us that were like normal people,

12:14

you know, and the rest of them were like amazing.

12:17

Betty and I both had to do the full on dance

12:20

class, you know, and you had to

12:22

do it. I had to do cart wheels across

12:24

the floor in front of this incredible

12:26

company of dancers and Cats and

12:29

Campaige and I just clung to each other and

12:31

I was like I'm going to die and

12:33

he was like, I'm right with you. And

12:36

it was like so humiliating

12:38

old Deuteronomy and Chris Sabella

12:40

are not cartwheeling cats we

12:42

should be clear about. No, that's

12:45

we should be clear. Well,

12:48

you have no idea now.

12:50

When the show finally opened in October

12:53

two, it didn't get great reviews,

12:55

But so what reviews are

12:57

about? The here and now cats?

13:00

As the commercial tagline pointed out, was

13:02

now and forever. Catch now

13:04

and forever At the Window Garden Theater, it

13:09

was the show to see and be seen

13:11

at Andy Warhol, Diana

13:14

Ross, Frank Zappa, Carrie

13:16

Grant, Mary Tyler Moore. Those are

13:18

just a few of the big names who showed

13:20

up. Then it swept the

13:22

Tony's Betty Buckley one

13:24

for Best Featured Actress in a Musical.

13:27

I want to thank my mom and my dad and

13:29

my brother no him and my other brothers and that

13:33

brother. She thanked Norman, even

13:35

though he wasn't in the show, his

13:37

life was about to be changed by

13:40

it. Oh. I was very much a country

13:42

boy. I probably still am at heart,

13:45

you know, my most essential self. It

13:47

was an exciting time for me, but I was

13:49

also a little lost

13:51

amongst all the hubbub. On the other

13:53

side of the break, Grizabella's

13:55

younger brother and Mr Mustaphile's

13:58

meat. What

14:15

was it like having your little brother backstage

14:17

with you at Cats? Well? At first,

14:19

I mean I was really happy that he was there. And

14:22

my brother and I, you know, have been at

14:24

points in our lives very close. That's

14:27

Betty Buckley talking about her little

14:29

brother, Norman Buckley back

14:31

in the early eighties when she was starring

14:33

in Cats. Norman was new

14:35

to New York. Sister and brother

14:38

may have been close, but Betty didn't

14:40

know that Norman was gay. We

14:43

grew up in Texas with a military father, and

14:45

you know, it wasn't something that was certainly

14:47

discussed or we even considered.

14:50

So he was staying at my apartment

14:53

when he first came to New York and was

14:56

coming out as a gay person, and I

14:58

didn't know what was going on. So

15:01

he left some of his journals out for

15:03

me to see, and I

15:05

read some entries and was shocked,

15:08

was like, what is this? And so there was

15:10

some big confrontations between he and

15:12

I, and I can freely admit that I don't

15:14

think I handled those very well. Norman

15:17

describes himself as a country boy

15:19

back then. What was he like? Was he innocent?

15:21

Was he very boyish, totally innocent.

15:24

Oh my god, that's why I was scared,

15:27

wet behind the ears, delicate

15:29

artistic boy. Yeah,

15:31

I knew he was twenty seven, but still to

15:33

me, he was always my little baby

15:36

brother who was a vulnerable, sweet kid.

15:39

Today, Norman Buckley is an accomplished

15:42

TV director, having worked on over

15:44

forty shows, including The o C,

15:47

Gossip Girl, and Pretty Little Liars?

15:49

Does It Not

15:52

Really? But the Sluttier than Better? Back

15:55

then, Norman was working as an editing

15:57

room assistant on the movie Easy

16:00

Money, just across the street

16:02

from the Winter Garden Theater. I

16:04

would generally, uh, just visit

16:06

with her earn her dressing room until she

16:08

had to go back on stage. Norman's

16:11

favorite place in the theater was the cat

16:13

walk high above the stage. That's

16:15

where he'd watched the end of the show when

16:17

Grizabella ascends on a giant

16:20

tire to the heavy side layer

16:22

the equivalent of cat Heaven,

16:25

at least I think that's what it is. That's

16:27

actually the first time I had an encounter

16:29

with Tim Scott, because that was where he

16:31

would make his big entrance for

16:34

his big number as Mr Mustapoles.

16:36

He was lowered on a rope from that same

16:39

cat walk. For a long period

16:41

of time, he didn't even register

16:43

that I was up there with him. And then

16:46

one night he turned and looked at me, and

16:48

I looked back at him, and there was this long,

16:50

meaningful moment. Tim

16:53

may have been dressed as a cat with lots

16:55

of cat makeup, but Norman

16:57

was spellbound. He had very

17:00

intense eyes. He was

17:02

kind of otherworldly looking.

17:04

I was much taller than him. Norman

17:06

was six one, Tim seven.

17:09

We looked a little bit like Mutt and Jeff. Some

17:12

days later, after the show, Norman

17:14

and his sister Betty shared a big Checker

17:17

taxi cab with Tim. During

17:19

the ride, Norman and Tim

17:21

experienced another wordless

17:23

moment of connection. This

17:26

was a much more profound encounter.

17:28

At that moment, I thought, oh, this person

17:30

is going to be significant in your life. You

17:33

really thought that there very

17:35

much, so I can remember it as though it

17:37

happened yesterday. I looked

17:39

at him, I took him in, he was taking

17:42

me in, and I thought, this is

17:44

it. The very next night,

17:46

Norman mustered his courage

17:48

and stood in the doorway of Tim's dressing

17:51

room at intermission, and I said,

17:53

do you want to have dinner, and he said, yes, it

17:55

was like great, and that was it?

17:58

Is that the kind of thing you could have imagined your

18:00

self doing even six months before. I

18:03

can't even imagine myself doing that now. So

18:06

it's I think I met him the next

18:08

night on the corner. I still didn't want to

18:11

tell my sister that I was seeing

18:13

somebody in her show. Norman

18:15

says. The chemistry was instant. Was

18:17

he funny, very funny. He had a great sense

18:20

of humor. I laughed a lot

18:22

his jokes. It's

18:24

got to be at least one laugher in the relationship.

18:27

But Betty was concerned. In

18:30

New York City, the whole gay scene in

18:32

the nighties, you know, was wild,

18:35

and I was terrified for him. I

18:38

was just basically scared, and we didn't

18:40

know what AIDS was quite yet.

18:43

In fact, when AIDS was first reported,

18:45

it wasn't even called AIDS. A

18:47

mystery disease known as the gay plague

18:49

has become an epidemic unprecedented

18:51

in the history of American medicine. The

18:54

lifestyle of some male homosexuals

18:56

has triggered an epidemic of a rare

18:59

form of cancer. A mysterious, newly

19:01

discovered disease, which affects

19:03

mostly homosexual men. When

19:05

did the disease become real to you?

19:08

Well, you know, it's that trajectory that you see

19:10

so wonderfully portrayed in Long Time Companion.

19:13

It really was the thing where people started whispering,

19:16

and things started popping up from the newspaper,

19:18

and people started making calls saying, did

19:20

you hear about this thing that's going around?

19:23

That's ken page again. He's

19:25

referring to the nine movie Longtime

19:28

Companion, directed by Norman

19:30

Renee, who ultimately died from

19:33

AIDS himself. The film opens

19:35

on the morning of July three.

19:38

The characters wake up to the ominous

19:40

New York Times article by Lawrence k

19:42

Altman, the first in a mainstream

19:45

publication to make reference to the disease

19:47

that would be called AIDS. They

19:49

immediately begin phoning each other, Hello,

19:52

have you seen the paper? Oh? I

19:54

was just shipped to help. Have you got it? Yeah,

19:58

the page, you

20:01

can't miss it. Did you see the paper?

20:04

I missed that? Oh well, just listen.

20:08

Rare cants are seen in forty one Homosexuals.

20:11

By the time Cats was in rehearsal, concern

20:15

was burgeoning into a sense of alarm.

20:18

Then you started to hear did you know

20:20

so? And so I heard they're not well, they have

20:22

they have that gay cancer. Right. There was

20:24

fear everywhere. Ken remembers

20:27

when early in the epidemic he was working

20:29

in Los Angeles and went to pick up

20:31

a friend at the airport. Ken

20:33

was stunned by the friend's appearance. He

20:36

was a good twenty five pounds lighter

20:38

and blessing. He was saying, well, I got this rash.

20:40

I want to get in the sun so I can get rid of this

20:43

rash. And I feel bad about

20:45

it to this very day, thinking to myself,

20:47

I don't know do I want him staying in my

20:49

house. He came to me for solace

20:52

and comfort, but I was afraid

20:54

of what that all meant. And

20:56

I can honestly say that I don't think

20:58

I handled it as well as I could have. But

21:00

it was typical for what everybody

21:03

was experiencing. Even

21:06

after the generic sounding acronym

21:09

AIDS Acquired immunodeficiency

21:11

syndrome was coined in September

21:13

of two, it felt like

21:15

the full force of blame for the disease

21:18

was being placed squarely on gay

21:20

men. Of course, being gay was

21:22

already stigmatized. The

21:24

American Psychiatric Association had

21:27

only removed homosexuality

21:29

from its list of mental disorders

21:31

in ninety three, and

21:33

in two only one

21:35

state, Wisconsin, had a law

21:38

on the books making it illegal to fire

21:40

people simply for being gay.

21:43

Coming out of the closet, never easy

21:45

to begin with, was even scarier

21:47

when it seemed to carry a death sentence

21:50

for me. Just realizing I was gay

21:52

at the time. I was twelve years old

21:54

when AIDS was first being widely reported,

21:57

wasn't just fraught, it was frightening.

22:00

I vividly remember a day in eighth grade

22:03

when a teacher finally talked to us about

22:05

AIDS. The girl who sat in front

22:07

of me turned around, looked straight at

22:09

me, and said, that's what you're going

22:11

to get. Many years later

22:13

she reached out to me on social media to apologize.

22:17

Of course I forgave her. It was junior high.

22:19

We were all incredibly mean to each other.

22:22

Once Norman and Tim were officially

22:24

a couple, Betty gave her blessing,

22:27

so I was really relieved in

22:29

so many ways that Tim was his first

22:32

great love. When she did find

22:34

out about the relationship with Tim, she

22:36

was very approving, I told her,

22:38

and she hesitated for a moment, thought about

22:40

it, and she said, well, you picked the right

22:42

one. She said, I can see this. I

22:45

loved Tim, and of course I love my brother,

22:47

so ultimately I was like, well,

22:51

it's not money of my business, and I

22:53

have to say I love them both. So there

22:55

we go. But while Betty may have been

22:58

relieved, Tim Scott him self

23:00

was increasingly worried. Dates

23:02

was always a specter that kind of hung

23:05

over our relationship. Tim had

23:07

actually been involved with someone who was

23:09

one of the really early AIDS cases

23:12

that young man was dying.

23:14

During previews of Cats, Tim

23:17

would go from the theater sometimes

23:19

to his hospital room and sit with him.

23:22

Now bear in mind, in

23:24

AIDS test was still three years

23:27

away and any life saving

23:29

treatment was fourteen years

23:31

away. We had a hair dresser named

23:33

Paul Lopez who worked on eight Misbehavior,

23:36

and he got sick and he wasn't

23:38

feeling well, like on Wednesday, Mattnee.

23:41

He wasn't doing well. Thursday he

23:43

came in. They said, you really aren't well. You should go home.

23:45

Friday he went into the hospital Saturday,

23:48

Sunday he was unconscious by Monday,

23:51

and he died on Tuesday, and that

23:53

was from Wednesday. Not even

23:55

a week later, he was gone. The federal

23:58

government wasn't slow to act. It

24:00

didn't act at all. On October

24:02

fifteenth, two, just

24:05

a week after CATS opened, President

24:07

Reagan's Press Secretary Larry Speaks,

24:10

was asked about AIDS by a reporter

24:12

named Lester King, Solving. Here's

24:15

how that exchange went.

24:17

Have any reactions with the announce

24:19

from the Center for Disease Control

24:22

Atlanta that a d S

24:24

is now an epidemic in six six

24:27

hundred cases.

24:32

It's known as gay play. Yes,

24:36

I mean, it's a pretty serious thing that one and

24:38

every three people again this have died. And

24:40

I wondered if the president where I

24:43

don't have it? Are you do you?

24:45

You don't have it? Well, I'm relieved to hear

24:48

that you don't

24:51

answer my question. How do you know?

24:53

That's right? Speaks and much of the White

24:55

House Press Corps, we're treating AIDS

24:58

and its victims as a joke. President

25:01

Reagan himself didn't utter the

25:03

word AIDS, and then only in response

25:06

to a reporter's question, until

25:08

the fall of over

25:11

four years into the devastation. When

25:15

Tim's contract with CATS ended

25:18

that same year, the couple decided

25:20

to move west and begin a new chapter

25:22

in Los Angeles. Not long

25:24

after their move, they drove up to Malibu.

25:28

We went out to Zuma Beach one day and

25:30

he said to me, very tentatively, I

25:32

really can't imagine my life

25:35

without you, and I want to stay with you for the rest

25:37

of my life. And I responded,

25:39

I want to stay with you for the rest of my life.

25:41

It was this really solemn moment.

25:44

I like to think of it as a vows. I

25:46

considered myself married to Tim.

25:49

There was no legal way to do

25:51

that at the time, and it was a

25:53

commitment. And I'm so happy

25:56

that had happened before he became

25:59

ill, because there was

26:01

no question but that I would

26:03

see him through it. And I think he felt

26:05

that on the other side of the break.

26:08

Tim Scott's last show, the

26:10

Ultimate tribute to the dancer

26:13

What I did doing

26:19

what we Love. That's her

26:22

anthem, what I did for love.

26:33

I'm visiting tonight at the home of

26:36

Tim Scott. I'll knock on the door now,

26:42

Hello, Hello, would

26:44

you like to come in? I would like to come in. I'm

26:48

watching home video of Norman

26:50

Buckley and Tim Scott. It's

26:53

sometime in late or

26:55

early and they're

26:57

joking around giving a tour of their

26:59

so me two bedroom apartment in West

27:02

Hollywood. Here is Kennedy.

27:05

Here we meet their cat,

27:07

who just happens to be named more.

27:15

Look at the cat's

27:17

eyes. Really looked like the eyes on the back of

27:19

my cat sweatshirt. Tim and Norman

27:22

seem happy. Why shouldn't they be. They're

27:24

young, thirty years old. They make each

27:26

other laugh, and career wise,

27:29

things are going well for both of them. At

27:31

the time, Norman was working as an assistant

27:34

editor on a horror movie called Trick

27:36

or Treat starring Gene Simmons

27:38

of Kiss He's a rook and

27:40

Roll and during this period,

27:43

Tim scored two film gigs.

27:46

He was cast in the four D spectacular

27:48

Captain Eo, shown exclusively

27:51

at Disney Parks. This was,

27:53

at the time the most expensive

27:55

film per minute ever made. Tim

27:58

is part of the enormous On so Bold, dancing

28:00

behind Michael Jackson. Tim

28:08

was also cast in the movie version of

28:11

the musical A chorus Line. It's

28:13

a bit part. He plays boy with

28:15

headband. Seriously, that's

28:18

his screen credit. But so what? It

28:20

was a job on a movie up

28:25

We even get to hear him sing briefly,

28:27

God, I really blew it, I really

28:30

blew it. What I love about

28:32

it is that it's very brief, but it

28:34

very much captures Tim's spirit.

28:37

It's a short, lovely cameo.

28:40

And then, ten

28:43

years after he toured internationally

28:45

in the stage production of A chorus Line, Tim

28:48

was cast in a European tour of the show.

28:51

Okay, since it's come up a couple of times,

28:53

let's talk for a moment about a chorus

28:55

line. This musical is the

28:58

ultimate tribute to dancers just

29:00

like Tim, not stars, not

29:03

household names, dancers struggling

29:06

and auditioning for roles in the chorus, not

29:08

doing it with the expectation of becoming rich

29:11

and famous, but doing it for the love

29:13

of dancing. Tim was cast in

29:15

the role of Mike, a dancer who's

29:17

up for any challenge. Perfect

29:20

for Tim. I mean to have Tim's

29:22

technique, his splits

29:25

and jumps and turns and all

29:27

of that quite spectacular.

29:30

This is Broadway legend. Bi

29:32

orch Lee, you are in the original

29:35

King and I Yes, How

29:39

old were you? I was five,

29:43

by the way, I was fired at eight because

29:45

I outgrew my costume. By York

29:47

went on to play Connie in the original Broadway

29:50

cast of A chorus Line. A good

29:52

ten, cak what ten? That's

29:54

the story of my life. A

29:57

chorus Line was conceived by the

30:00

legendary dancer turned director Michael

30:02

Bennett, who would himself die from

30:05

aids by orc. The keeper

30:07

of the chorus Line Flame has been directing

30:09

revivals and road companies of the show

30:11

for decades. It is a tribute

30:14

to the dancer. The audience comes in, and

30:16

what Michael wanted to convey was that

30:18

they were peeking in on an

30:21

audition, because no one has ever

30:23

seen an audition outside of the people

30:26

who are involved. One

30:29

song that Tim Scott sang many times

30:31

as part of the ensemble of A chorus Line

30:34

is what I Did for Love. It's a

30:36

song about the short and sometimes

30:38

painful careers of dancers. It

30:41

pops up towards the end of the show after

30:43

one of the dancers has had a serious accident

30:46

and has to drop out of the industry altogether.

30:49

The director asks the remaining dancers

30:52

what they would say if they learned that they could

30:54

never dance again. The

30:57

character of Morales starts the

30:59

song off kiss Today

31:01

You could love The

31:07

suitetness and the

31:09

sorrow. Wish

31:14

me luck the same to

31:19

you. But

31:24

I can't regret what

31:27

I did for love.

31:30

What I did for love

31:34

the message of the song. Whatever

31:36

life throws at these artists, they'll

31:38

face the future with the same bravery

31:41

and undefeated optimism with which

31:43

they pursued their careers, however

31:46

short they may be. It's about

31:48

survival, but also doing

31:50

what we love. That's her

31:52

anthem, what I did for love. To

31:55

do it because you love it. Whether you're dancing,

31:57

singing, acting, or whatever you do, we

32:00

do it because we love it. I think

32:02

there's something really special about Tim Scott's

32:05

last show being the show

32:07

that pays tribute to the dancer. Yeah.

32:15

A few weeks into their European tour, by

32:17

Orc noticed that Tim Scott was

32:20

losing stamina. At the time,

32:22

I did not know that he was ill.

32:25

I think we were in Surich and

32:28

he wasn't feeling well. He had

32:30

no energy at all. Tim

32:33

was having holistic medications mailed

32:35

to him on the road. He'd tried

32:37

crystals, meditation and other

32:39

alternative remedies. They weren't

32:42

working. He eventually left

32:44

the tour, left the tour and he

32:46

called me and he said, you know, I don't want to do this

32:48

anymore. He said, I'm too old. I don't

32:51

want to be the dancer anymore. I

32:53

want to come home. Tim was still

32:55

only thirty one. He

32:57

went to the doctor and they did an indoscap.

33:00

He had a very light case of

33:02

pneumacist this pneumonia, which was one

33:04

of the ways that they diagnosed aids

33:07

at the time. And I said, okay,

33:09

well, we'll take it a step at a time.

33:11

But we essentially knew that it was a death

33:14

sentence. The question was just how

33:16

long we hoped for some

33:19

type of miraculous cure.

33:21

We hoped something would happen, As

33:24

with so many terminal conditions, though

33:27

Tim's illness didn't move in a straight

33:29

line. By December, he

33:32

was experiencing an upswing. On

33:35

Christmas Eve that year, he and Norman,

33:38

underneath their Christmas tree in their West

33:40

Hollywood apartment, take turns

33:42

opening Presence. What is

33:44

it? It's a book

33:47

from from Norma, the

33:52

Great Towns of California, Oh

33:57

great, Oh,

34:04

the best American short Stories more

34:13

Slacks. I

34:17

don't want to sentimentalize it, and I don't

34:19

want to romanticize

34:21

it, but it was a wonderful period

34:23

of time. It sounds counterintuitive

34:26

to say that, but it was a wonderful period of

34:28

time because we were so deeply connected

34:30

at that point. The next morning

34:32

they celebrate at a friend's home. Tim

34:35

teaches the friends three daughters a dance.

34:38

Okay, there, but

34:47

I have to say, the girls don't seem all that

34:49

focused, and I kind of want to jump

34:52

into the video tape and tell them you're getting

34:54

a free dance lesson from the original

34:56

broad White. Mr Mustapholes. Pull

34:59

it together. Okay,

35:01

I'm back now. Not long after that Christmas,

35:04

Tim and Norman took a road trip. We

35:07

drove across the Southwest and we went to the Grand

35:09

Canyon and he went out on this rock.

35:12

It was very precarious. I was like, oh,

35:14

please, don't go out so far. I don't go out so far. And

35:16

he went out on the end of this rock and did

35:18

this pirouet. But

35:22

after returning to Los Angeles and

35:24

especially virulent case of pneumonia

35:26

sent Tim to the hospital. It

35:29

was at that point I said, we have to

35:31

tell your parents, we have to let them

35:33

know. And his mother immediately

35:36

flew out. She was this wonderful

35:38

Italian woman who was a wonderful

35:41

cook. And took care of us.

35:43

Tim's parents, Richard and Rosemary,

35:46

stayed at a motel nearby. Tim's

35:48

father, Richard Schnell, was still working

35:51

as a technical writer for Motorola. Rosemary

35:54

Schnell was a homemaker. Tim

35:56

was their only child. When

35:58

he gave his parents the

36:01

news about his diagnosis.

36:03

Do you think that his mother suspected

36:07

in any way they knew something

36:09

was up? They couldn't have been better though

36:11

in their response. They were lovely

36:13

people, and I feel enormous

36:16

gratitude to them. They

36:19

accepted me, they loved

36:22

me. They remained

36:24

close to me for the rest of their lives.

36:27

So many people during that period of time did

36:29

not have the support of their parents. For

36:32

many people in the theater, it was their chosen

36:35

family, not their biological one,

36:37

that rallied around them. The community

36:40

had to help themselves. Women

36:42

like bi orch Lee, who had grown up

36:44

performing with so many gay men who

36:46

were like brothers to her, played a special

36:49

role. He became angels

36:52

when we started hearing about all

36:54

of these people. We started taking

36:57

care of them, just being with them to

36:59

go to get their medicine or

37:02

to feed them, helping

37:04

them. They because people

37:06

were afraid these were our friends,

37:09

and so we didn't have any

37:11

fear. My best friends

37:13

all died of AIDS. Most

37:15

of my closest male friends that I

37:17

met doing Guys and Dolls and Pearly and

37:20

the Whiz and so forth, they all died.

37:23

They all died. This is can Paige

37:25

again. It was devastating,

37:28

and many many other friends who to

37:30

bury degree. Some went home just

37:33

disappeared. Others had no home to

37:35

go to because their families rejected them. Some

37:38

of us as friend group at that time, which

37:40

is something else I'll always treasure those

37:42

of us who gathered and rallied and supported

37:45

each other, and if someone fell ill,

37:47

you just gathered around them and did whatever you needed

37:50

to do, including burial.

37:53

Burial became a terrible challenge

37:55

for the bereaved. Early on in

37:57

Manhattan, only one funeral

38:00

home, Reddens on Fourteenth Street,

38:02

was willing to accept the remains of

38:04

the victims of AIDS. Now,

38:07

it's hard to know how many people died

38:09

during the early years of the epidemic. Families,

38:13

churches, hospitals often lied

38:15

about the cause of death. That's how

38:17

deep the stigma was. And as

38:19

David France, author of How to Survive

38:22

a Plague, has reported some gay

38:24

men, when they detected a lesion or

38:26

another symptom of infection, would

38:29

kill themselves. Many of

38:31

the dead ended up in unmarked Potter's

38:33

fields like Heart Island off the Bronx,

38:36

the final resting place for the ostracized

38:39

and abandoned. When

38:41

Tim Scott wasn't in the hospital for

38:44

an infection, he was at home. Betty

38:47

Buckley was just down the street. I

38:53

don't remember that. I that I was as

38:55

supportive as I aspired to be. There wasn't

38:57

a lot I could do. Yeah,

38:59

I remember finding this puppy,

39:02

this beautiful little ducks and puppy that I thought

39:04

would be great to give to Tim. I

39:06

gave him this puppy and he didn't want a puppy,

39:10

so I was I thought I was doing

39:12

something to make him feel, you

39:15

know, really comforted and engaged. But it

39:17

was a wrong choice. I don't know. He

39:19

had lost a lot of weight, but I

39:21

didn't see that. I didn't see that at the time.

39:24

While I was there with him, he was just the person

39:26

I loved, and I never really took in the fact

39:28

that he was vanishing right before

39:31

my eyes. Finally, on

39:33

Halloween, while

39:35

Norman was driving him home from his latest

39:38

hospital visit for pneumonia. Tim

39:40

made an announcement and he said,

39:42

that's it. I don't want to go back to the hospital again.

39:45

Tim would spend his remaining days at

39:47

home. I've always felt that

39:49

there was a beautiful symmetry

39:52

to the relationship that Tim and I had.

39:54

We were together for five years, and during

39:57

the first two and a half years, I would say

39:59

that he was the one who was taking care of me.

40:01

He was the one that was helping me come

40:04

into my own and during the second

40:06

too and a half years of our relationship, I became

40:10

the caretaker. During those

40:12

weeks, Norman rarely left

40:14

Tim side. If you're going to

40:16

go through some major life trial, you would want

40:19

to go through with my brother, Norman. It was

40:21

incredibly admirable and

40:23

inspiring watching him be

40:25

there for this person that he loved so much.

40:28

In the middle of one night, Norman woke

40:30

up to find Tim sitting bolt

40:32

upright in bed, wide awake,

40:35

staring out into the distance, and

40:38

I said, what's going on. He said nothing. He said,

40:40

I'm just trying to measure where we are

40:42

relative to that space out there. And

40:45

I said, well, what space you're talking about? And he said,

40:47

Oh, it's not anything I could explain to you. It's

40:49

just a lot more than we know. And

40:52

I said, well, I'm sure

40:54

that that's so. And he said,

40:56

so are you ready for your big test? And

40:58

I said, well, I really know what you

41:01

mean by that, but I guess I'm as ready as

41:03

I ever will be. And he

41:05

said, okay, we'll go back to sleep, and

41:07

he patted me on the arm and I went back

41:09

to sleep. And then when I woke up, he was in a coma

41:12

and he never woke up again. That

41:14

was the last time I ever spoke to him. As

41:16

difficult as that period of time was, it

41:19

was also extraordinary.

41:21

I felt deeply loved by him, and

41:24

I deeply loved him. And

41:30

it's funny, you know, you don't

41:32

think about these things for a

41:34

long time, and then you talk about them

41:36

and suddenly the emotion

41:39

comes back over you again. What

41:42

do you think he meant by are you ready for

41:45

your big test? Are

41:47

you ready to be on your own? Are

41:49

you ready to except

41:52

that you have to let go of me? Who

41:55

knows? You know? I mean he was also on

41:58

pain killers. You know, there's there's

42:01

all kinds of possibilities

42:03

that maybe he was just hallucinating, but

42:06

at least he was hallucinating

42:08

in a particularly profound poetic way.

42:12

Tim's parents and friends gathered and

42:14

took visuals as he remained comatose

42:17

for about ten days. It was

42:19

Norman who was with Tim during his final

42:21

moments. He

42:23

took his last breath, I could see like

42:26

his eyes, his eyes were very blue, and

42:28

then all of a sudden, there was just this point of life, that swimp.

42:32

It was almost like I saw the life force leave him.

42:34

And he died at six thirty in the morning on February

42:41

Is it for gay men your age

42:44

particularly difficult that a

42:46

lot of your contemporaries are no longer

42:48

with us? Died many years ago? Kin,

42:51

Paige and I were sitting together sometime

42:54

years after Timid died, and I

42:56

said, Uh, where's all the game

42:58

in my age? And Kin said to

43:00

me, Norman, they all died. Were

43:03

a small number of survivors, the

43:06

people our age, they're gone. It

43:09

really hit me like a ton of bricks when he said

43:11

that four from the original

43:13

Broadway cast of Cats died from

43:16

aids. Tim was thirty

43:18

two, Stephen Guelfer was

43:20

thirty nine. Read Jones,

43:22

who was wonderful in the role of Skimble,

43:25

Shanks was thirty five and

43:27

Renee Clemente was thirty eight. As

43:30

a successful TV director of popular

43:33

shows featuring picture perfect

43:35

teens and people in their twenties, Norman

43:38

Buckley regularly works with young people

43:41

who have little knowledge of the outbreak

43:43

of the AIDS crisis. It's hard

43:45

to explain to the younger generations

43:48

just what a hollacious period

43:50

of time that was in terms of the loss.

43:53

I'm very aware that when I talk

43:55

about my experiences, that people

43:57

can only understand certain

44:00

things when they've experienced those things themselves,

44:03

and I have compassion for that, so

44:06

I try to just be patient.

44:09

Ken Paige has a tougher message for

44:11

younger generations. What I want

44:14

to say to them is, don't

44:16

be stupid. It's not gone.

44:18

There's just ways of handling it. Don't

44:21

be cavalier. Don't take it

44:23

for granted that you're well and you're gonna be well,

44:25

and there's a pill and as this is that you can do anything

44:27

you want. Don't be stupid. People

44:29

paid for what you know. People

44:32

paid for the cocktails

44:34

and the pills and the things that you have that

44:37

make you able to not worry about

44:39

how you have sex. Someone paid

44:42

literally their lives for that. Don't

44:44

forget that. Never forget.

44:48

When Cats returned to Broadway in ken

44:52

Paige was in the audience on opening night,

44:54

but for him it wasn't as much a revival

44:57

as it was a remembrance. M

45:00

I went to the opening night. Rosie O'Donnell

45:02

was sitting there to night left, and

45:04

I said, oh god, she goes. What's it like for

45:06

you, she asked me. I said, I just see

45:08

ghosts. I said, there's so many people

45:11

up there with the makeup and all. It was pretty

45:13

much the same. I said, I see Renee

45:15

Clamente, I see Read Jones,

45:18

I see Tim Scott, I

45:20

see Stephen Guelfer right

45:22

there in front of me on

45:25

the stage. I was happy they were

45:27

doing it, and I supported the revival and on no

45:29

no, But it was also very difficult

45:31

to sit and watch because you couldn't

45:33

not go through the memory. Tim

45:38

Scott was cremated. For his

45:40

final resting place, Tim's parents

45:43

and Norman decided on that very

45:45

spot in Arizona where Tim

45:48

had once pirouetted, and so we

45:50

went out to the Grand Canyon,

45:53

the five or six of us, and

45:55

we went out on the end of that rock, which

45:57

in retrospect is totally crazy, is

46:00

uh. I look at pictures of it now and I think,

46:02

oh my god, we can have all fallen off and

46:04

joined him with

46:08

this episode. I wanted to pay tribute

46:10

to all those artists whose names

46:13

didn't make headlines when they died, and

46:16

so I wrote to Tom Viola, the head

46:18

of Broadway Cares Equity Fights AIDS.

46:20

It's one of the oldest and largest groups

46:23

raising money to support artists living

46:25

with HIV AIDS. I wanted

46:27

to know what he might have to say about Tim

46:29

Scott. I didn't know Tim

46:32

Scott well, he wrote, but with

46:34

Cats being such a smash hit when it opened,

46:37

and Tim being so blazing hot as the

46:39

original Mr Mustopheles, he

46:41

was one of the eighties most beautiful and popular

46:44

Broadway dancers. Plus

46:46

he was a very sweet guy. Tim's

46:49

passing from AIDS was

46:51

truly one of the deaths that galvanized

46:54

to the community into the very early

46:56

efforts to do something that culminated

46:59

in the founding of Equity Fights AIDS

47:01

and Broadway Cares. Will

47:04

let Ken Page the wise old

47:07

deuteronomy of Cats have the

47:09

final word. Those

47:11

of us who have survived aids this

47:14

that the other even whatever, just age.

47:16

If we don't tell the story, who does? Because

47:20

you can only tell it if you were there. And

47:22

if we are not responsible in telling

47:24

it and passing it on when people ask like you

47:26

have, then it dies literally

47:29

and it's too valuable a story,

47:32

whether it's in one person named Tim Scott

47:35

or in any of the number of people we named from cats,

47:37

or the greater number that we're in the theater New

47:39

York at the time, or the even greater number

47:42

that was the world population that we lost.

47:44

We who have survived have to tell the

47:46

story. I

47:58

hope you've enjoyed seas and three of Mobituaries.

48:02

If you were with us the first two seasons,

48:04

thanks for sticking around. If you

48:06

haven't heard our previous seasons, I

48:09

hope you'll do a little delving. Either way,

48:11

feel free to spread the word about

48:13

mobids me. I ask you to please

48:16

rate and review this podcast. You can

48:18

also follow Mobituaries on Facebook

48:20

and Instagram, and you can follow me

48:22

on Twitter at morocco and

48:24

check out Mobituaries. Great Lives

48:27

Worth Reliving the New York Times best

48:29

selling book, now available in paperback

48:31

and audiobook. It includes plenty

48:34

of stories not in the podcast. This

48:37

episode of Mobituaries was produced

48:39

by Francisco Robina. Our

48:42

team of producers also includes Aaron

48:44

Shrink, Wilco, Martinezcaceto,

48:47

and me Morocca. It was

48:49

edited by Moral Wolves and engineered

48:51

by Josh Hahn, with fact checking

48:53

by Naomi bar Our production

48:56

company is Neon Houm Media. Our

48:59

archival produce sir is Jamie Benson.

49:01

Our theme music is written by Daniel

49:04

Hart. Indispensable

49:06

support from Craig Swaggler, Dustin

49:08

Gervais, Alan Pang, Reggie

49:10

Basio and everyone at CBS

49:13

News Radio. Special thanks

49:15

to David France, Tom Biola,

49:18

Bill Keith Richard, j Alexander,

49:21

Megan Marcus, Molly Raleigh, Steven

49:23

Spanbauer, and Alberto Robina.

49:26

The Invincible. Aaron Shrank is

49:28

our senior producer. Executive

49:30

producers for Mobituaries include Steve

49:33

Raizys and Morocca. The series

49:36

is created by Yours Truly and

49:38

as always, thanks to Rant Morrison

49:41

and John carp for helping breathe

49:43

life into Mobituaries