0:00

This week on the New Yorker Radio

0:02

Hour, a mysterious third party is

0:04

emerging in the presidential race. We'll talk

0:06

about who they are and what they stand for

0:08

next time on the New Yorker Radio Hour. Listen

0:11

wherever you get your podcasts.

0:14

The

0:20

true symbol of the United States

0:23

is not the bald eagle. It

0:25

is the pendulum. And

0:28

when the pendulum swings too

0:30

far in one direction, it

0:32

will go back.

0:35

Back. Back.

0:40

It will go back.

0:44

This is More Perfect. I'm Julia Longoria.

0:47

Before

0:49

we started working on this season, we

0:52

asked you, our listeners, to

0:54

share your questions, your concerns,

0:57

your general thoughts about the court

0:59

today.

1:00

And going through the many lovely voice

1:03

notes we got from you, I stumbled

1:05

upon this one from a teacher.

1:08

Hi guys. My

1:10

name is Carly Howie. I teach

1:13

American history to high schoolers.

1:15

Talking about how she explains the court

1:17

to her students through a metaphor

1:20

we mentioned in a past season. And

1:22

I specifically referenced the idea of

1:24

the American pendulum and

1:27

how, you know, we're kind of swinging back and forth

1:29

where, you know, different,

1:32

different groups with different ideas hold power

1:34

at different times. And we can look back

1:36

and say... How today's court is on one

1:38

of those swings it takes from time

1:40

to time. And how difficult it can feel when you're on the other

1:43

side, waiting for the

1:55

pendulum

1:59

to swing. swing back.

2:04

So today, we are going to replay

2:07

an old episode of More Perfect. Fun

2:10

fact, it's the very first one I

2:12

ever reported. When we looked

2:14

back at a time when the court

2:16

took a swing in a

2:18

very dark direction, when

2:21

the Chief Justice wrote what might just

2:23

be the most horrible decision the court

2:25

has ever made. At that point in

2:27

time, at the highest court of the land to make

2:29

that decision, that was putting a period

2:32

on sort of this overarching battle

2:35

between the North and the South, the

2:37

forced slavery and the abolitionists. And

2:40

so when this happens,

2:42

now you start seeing civil war popping on.

2:47

And how two families caught in the

2:49

crosshairs of the decision came

2:51

together 160 years after

2:54

the case was decided.

3:13

More Perfect listeners. Hey. Hello,

3:15

More Perfect. We want to answer your questions

3:18

about the Supreme Court. How do

3:20

other countries' Supreme Courts work? What's

3:23

been nagging

3:23

you? Who is this Supreme Court

3:25

marshal? What makes no sense? How

3:28

come Supreme Court justices are

3:30

never ending until they die? We

3:32

might just find an answer for you. Thank you for

3:34

taking my question. Record your question

3:37

at moreperfectpodcast.org.

3:43

I'm Julia Longoria. This is More Perfect.

3:48

And today, we are taking a trip back

3:51

in time to an earlier era

3:53

of More Perfect. I had only

3:56

recently been hired onto the show when

3:58

this guy...

3:59

Hey, I'm Jed. Bumrath sent me on

4:01

my very first reporting trip. Snow

4:04

freshly laid on the ground. To

4:07

dig into the story behind one of the most

4:09

infamous decisions in Supreme Court history,

4:13

Dred Scott v. Sanford. This

4:16

is a case that split the United States

4:18

in two. So

4:21

the case

4:22

in question is the Dred Scott

4:24

case, which, if

4:27

you ask people... I was wondering if you've ever heard of

4:29

the Dred Scott

4:30

court case? The Dred Scott.

4:33

Sounds familiar. Doesn't go well. Nothing

4:35

coming up? Man, I don't know. My high school

4:38

history teacher would be really mad at me right now. I

4:40

don't know. I don't remember anything about

4:42

it. Remember nothing? We get a lot of people who are

4:44

like,

4:44

was that like a civil rights thing?

4:47

Probably something to do with segregation. You're

4:50

warm. I'm warm? Or was it Obama? The

4:52

name had some familiarity, yes? Yes.

4:55

Dred, OK. What

4:57

does that mean?

4:58

Dred Scott. It's a name. I

5:00

don't know. This is the first time I hear it. The

5:02

United States

5:03

of America. So

5:10

what happens a lot of times is that people don't actually

5:12

understand why they're free.

5:15

So Dred Scott is one of those fundamental

5:18

decisions that lays

5:20

the groundwork for the reasons why

5:23

we can live in a multicultural

5:25

society.

5:25

This is Ellie Mistall, more perfect

5:28

legal editor back then. But to really understand

5:30

the case, you've got to go to a place

5:32

called Fort Snelling.

5:34

It's

5:37

a small army base about 15 minutes

5:40

north of the Minneapolis airport. Snow

5:42

freshly laid on the ground. And

5:44

our producer, Julia Longoria, took a

5:46

trip there. Right over here. And this guy?

5:48

I'm Richard Josie, manager of programs here at

5:51

the Minnesota Historical Society. Gave her a tour.

5:53

Yep.

5:53

So what are we walking into now? So

5:55

what you're getting ready to see right now is

5:58

the space that we think is a big deal. probably

6:01

where dread and hair you've got, you know, where they

6:03

live. Before we go in,

6:05

can you just sort of set up when

6:06

in time are we, what's happening? This is the 1830s. We're 30

6:10

years out from the Civil War. By the 1830s,

6:13

about half the states in the Union have slavery, about

6:15

half don't. So it's this question

6:17

that's kind of still unanswered, like should we

6:19

be a free nation

6:19

or should we be a slave nation? So there's

6:22

a real tension here, and

6:25

there's a real understanding here

6:27

that this might not work.

6:29

And just as we're about

6:31

to reach this breaking point, an

6:33

army doctor named John Emerson, a white guy,

6:36

definitely a white guy, slave owner,

6:38

steps into free territory and

6:41

arrives here to

6:44

this army base

6:47

on a hill. And he brings

6:50

with him his one slave, Dread

6:52

Scott.

6:52

And now we're actually

6:54

inside the fortress, if you will,

6:57

and, you

7:00

know, all of the stone, all of the windows.

7:03

It's kind of like whenever

7:06

I come here, I have this kind of cold feeling, even

7:09

when it's hot outside.

7:12

He walks us up to the back of

7:14

this one squat building on

7:16

the far end of the base. Can

7:25

you describe the room? I

7:29

think we're probably looking at a, maybe

7:31

seven and a half foot ceiling. Wood

7:35

grain floor, wood clapboard floor with

7:38

stone walls. It's a tiny room,

7:40

a little bigger than a king bed. There's

7:43

a fireplace, little table, some redwood cabinets.

7:45

So this is a home,

7:48

this is a kitchen, this is a laundry place, this is,

7:50

you know, your one stop shop.

7:55

And the reason this room is

7:57

so important is because Dread Scott, living

8:01

in this room for the first

8:03

time in his life he got a taste of

8:07

what it might be like to be free.

8:11

I mean obviously he was still a slave but Dr.

8:14

Emerson would leave the fort for months at

8:16

a time and have him work for other people.

8:19

He had a degree of autonomy. And

8:21

Harriet and Dred met here right? Yeah. When

8:24

he was here he met a girl. 18, 30, 6, 7. Yeah

8:26

they met here. Richard Josie likes

8:30

to stand here and imagine just

8:32

how that might have went down. I can imagine you

8:35

know Harriet you know having been here and

8:38

and Dred being over by the store and

8:40

having a conversation with some one of the other black

8:42

guys that was here and I

8:45

can imagine him saying did

8:46

you see the new girl that's here? Here

8:48

she comes walking by. Jim

8:50

who is

8:51

that? I'm

8:54

gonna make her mine. Like

8:57

I can imagine him saying

8:59

that.

9:01

Over the next few years Dred and Harriet had

9:03

two kids both of them girls. And

9:06

I personally I think that that what happened

9:08

was children seemed to change everything.

9:13

So what ends up happening is that Dr. Emerson

9:17

moves Dred Scott and his family back

9:19

to Missouri. They're back in

9:22

a slave state and Dr. Emerson

9:24

ends up passing away. And

9:27

it seems like his wife is gonna maybe

9:30

sell Dred Scott's daughters. So

9:33

what Dred and Harriet Scott end up deciding

9:36

to do the whole reason we know

9:38

Dred Scott's name is

9:40

that they decide to sue for their

9:42

own freedom. That's a lawsuit that

9:45

Dred Scott had every right to believe

9:47

that he would win.

9:49

There was a doctrine called once free

9:52

always free. That the minute your foot

9:55

landed in the snow of the

9:57

north the minute you and your owner walked into

9:59

freedom.

9:59

free territory. You were

10:02

free. And you could not be

10:04

returned to a state of bondage.

10:07

This was a well-known legal

10:09

argument. And in fact, Dred Scott won at

10:11

a lower court. So it goes all the way up to the Supreme

10:14

Court. And the Supreme Court

10:16

says, no, you're

10:20

still property. And the Chief Justice

10:22

of the Supreme Court, Roger Taney. Very

10:24

famously, he says, the black

10:26

man has no rights that

10:29

the white man is bound to

10:31

respect. Taney, in

10:33

an amazingly broad decision,

10:36

not only slams the door on Dred

10:38

Scott's freedom, he slams

10:40

the door on the potential for

10:43

any African-American, free

10:45

or not free, to ever have

10:47

full citizenship in this country.

10:50

And at that point in time, at the highest court

10:52

of the land to make that decision, that

10:55

was putting a period on sort

10:57

of this overarching

10:58

battle between the North and

11:01

the South, the forced slavery and abolitionists.

11:03

And so when

11:06

this happens, now

11:09

you start seeing civil war popping off. Now,

11:19

as far as Dred Scott the case is

11:21

concerned with speaking legally, the

11:24

13th and 14th amendments did come along

11:26

and overturn it.

11:27

But like that line, like the black man

11:29

has no rights that a white man is bound to respect.

11:31

Like you can't overturn that line.

11:33

And these days, you know, as

11:35

the pendulum swings and we see a rise

11:38

in blatant

11:41

overt hate nationalism,

11:43

that line still hovers above us all.

11:58

You're a direct descendant

12:02

of that case, of that history. Suppose your name is Scott,

12:05

but your last name is Tawny.

12:08

What do you do with that? Particularly

12:11

now, like, what do you do with

12:13

that history? Do you ignore

12:16

it? Is it not your problem? Or do you address

12:17

it? And if you do, how?

12:27

Coming up after the break, we walk

12:29

into a hotel lobby in St. Louis

12:32

and get an answer we just did not

12:34

expect.

12:47

More Perfect is supported by BetterHelp.

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That's betterhelp.com

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slash perfect.

13:26

From WNYC Studios, this is More

13:28

Perfect. I'm Julia Longoria. Back

13:32

to the first story I ever reported for

13:34

More Perfect, here's our old host,

13:37

Jada Bumrott. Okay, now we come

13:39

to the reunion. As she was

13:41

reporting the story, producer Julia Longoria

13:44

was doing a little Googling, located

13:46

a couple of Scott Tawney descendants, and

13:48

then found out that they were actually planning

13:51

to meet up to have

13:53

this kind of historic summit, which

13:57

was like we thought was bananas. She

14:00

went, and

14:01

it was bananas. And as soon as she came back, she sat

14:03

down in the studio

14:04

and told Ellie, Miss Talani, all about it.

14:09

So where to start? So

14:15

I walked into this Hilton Frontenac

14:17

Hotel in St. Louis. You

14:19

know, your classic hotel atrium

14:22

with like a very weird

14:24

carpet pattern. And I walk

14:27

in and it's like, hello, darling. It's

14:29

almost like a conference. Oh, you're

14:31

Julia. And

14:32

I'm greeted by the

14:35

great, great granddaughter of Dred Scott.

14:38

Wow. And yeah, it's just amazing. I

14:40

mean, literally this is our inaugural

14:42

Sons and Daughters of Reconciliation

14:44

event. Name's Lynn Jackson. She's

14:47

the main organizer. This was always a dream that

14:49

I had about 12 years ago. That if I could meet

14:51

other descendants, wouldn't that be cool? And she

14:54

immediately tells me. I'm a networker. I'm a

14:56

networker. I'm gonna connect you with everyone

14:58

here. That's what I like

15:00

doing. And this is the Blow family right here. And immediately

15:03

she introduces

15:04

me to these three people. What's your name? Mimi

15:06

Labourshwa. John Labourshwa. I'm

15:09

Ashton Labourshwa.

15:10

Who are descendants of the Blow family,

15:12

the first family who owned her

15:15

great, great grandpa. Here's some more fun

15:17

guests. Hello, guys. Come on

15:19

in. She also introduced

15:21

me to the great, great, great.

15:23

And you're the great, great. Six great-grandson

15:25

of Thomas Jefferson.

15:27

I met... What's your name? I'm

15:29

Bertram Hayes Davis. Hi, Fanny. A descendant

15:32

of Jefferson Davis. You know, the guy who

15:34

led the Confederacy against the Union

15:36

in the Civil War. And everybody's hugging, laughing. It

15:41

was wild. It

15:44

sounds like almost like a meeting of the utopian society.

15:46

Yes, exactly. And

15:49

the whole idea, everyone kind of wanted... Reconciliation.

15:52

Reconciliation. Reconciliation. That

15:55

was the first time I met her. Reconciliation.

15:57

That was like the word of the day. Reconciliation.

15:59

I think a lot of the country needs that now,

16:02

you know. So I think a lot of people here... And

16:04

so I'm wandering around and greeting these people,

16:07

like going up shaking hands with random people,

16:09

and then I meet this one guy. My cousin,

16:11

Dred Scott Madison. Lynn introduced

16:13

us. Yes. Dred Madison.

16:16

I am the great-great-grandson of Dred and Harriet

16:18

Scott. And

16:20

I look in his eyes, and I was like,

16:24

holy shit. Those are

16:26

Dred Scott's eyes. I

16:29

mean, there's really only one picture of Dred Scott

16:31

that exists, and it's from around 1857.

16:35

He's wearing a suit, staring straight

16:37

at the camera.

16:38

And his eyes are, like, almost glassy.

16:41

And his pupils are really big, and it's just

16:43

striking. I

16:46

felt like I was looking right into those same eyes.

16:48

Have you always known that you're related to

16:50

Dred Scott? Yes. Yes. What's

16:53

your relationship to that history?

16:54

What do you... When you think about it, what

16:56

do you feel? I

17:00

have mixed feelings. Based

17:04

on what Chief Justice Taney said and the

17:06

decision they made, you're a subhuman species

17:09

with no rights. A white man is bound to respect.

17:10

Blacks have no rights that white men

17:12

are bound to respect. That still resonates

17:15

today, in my opinion. What

17:20

really hit me the hardest, and it's

17:23

hard for me to even think about this, it just bothers

17:25

me, was Trayvon Martin.

17:34

This kid was walking home from a store. What's

17:37

embarrassing wasn't breaking any laws. Someone

17:40

decided to follow him, pull

17:42

up on him, and ended up murdering

17:44

him. That guy parked his car,

17:46

got out of his car, invaded his young

17:48

man's space, and murdered him,

17:50

and used the Stand Your Ground

17:52

law. And that's the perfect

17:54

example of, your ground is

17:56

yours until I decide it's not.

17:59

I meet dread. just as he is about

18:01

to shake hands for the first time with the

18:03

family who owned his family. The

18:05

whole lot of stuff that goes through, mind it, are they

18:08

gonna be butt heads? Are they gonna do earrings

18:10

or whatnot? That all goes through your head, but

18:13

you have to approach people. You

18:15

have to approach people for who they are. You gotta have an open

18:17

mind.

18:18

And one of the most striking things I learned

18:20

from Dred Scott, Jr., Jr., Jr., and

18:22

also from his sister, Barbara. I'm Barbara McGregory.

18:24

I'm Dred Scott's great-great-granddaughter. Is

18:27

that the Dred Scott history was actually something

18:29

that was kinda kept from them. It was

18:31

a hush-hush thing, because the

18:34

Dred Scott decision, I don't know if you are understanding

18:36

what that was. That was the

18:38

last straw

18:38

that sparked the Civil War. My dad,

18:41

when they were growing up, they had death threats.

18:43

They couldn't tell anybody who they were related

18:46

to.

18:46

Your dad, that generation, this

18:48

was like 100 years after the decision. That

18:50

generation had to keep it a secret? That's

18:52

his great-grandfather. His grandmother

18:55

was Dred Scott's daughter.

18:55

Dred Jr.,

18:58

Jr., Jr., told me that his dad

19:01

was actually partially raised by Dred

19:03

Scott's daughter.

19:04

Aunt Lizzie. Whose name was Lizzie?

19:06

Tried to hide the fact. In fact, someone told me

19:09

she might've been kinda mad when my

19:12

grandfather and grandmother named my father, Dred Scott,

19:14

because she was in hiding. You gotta remember,

19:16

when she was six

19:18

years old, they went in hiding for five years

19:21

during the trial, her and her sister. Because

19:24

the whole basis of the trial was he

19:26

didn't want his family split up. So

19:29

when he lost a second appeal, he sent the girls

19:31

into hiding because he

19:33

didn't want them sold away. So

19:36

Lizzie stayed pretty much undercover.

19:39

She lived in a little room,

19:42

but she always had the shades closed.

19:45

So Dred and Barbara told me their parents never

19:47

talked about Dred Scott. They never had a picture

19:50

up in the house. They never even

19:52

knew what he looked like.

19:55

In fact, as we were

19:58

standing there in the lobby of the Hilton, Dred

20:00

pulls out his phone. Photos

20:03

of Dred Scott. Okay,

20:05

pictures of Dred Scott. And he brings up

20:07

the photo on Google. Wait. That's

20:11

the actual photograph. That's the actual photograph. That's

20:13

the actual photograph, which looks, let's

20:15

see. Looks like this. That's it.

20:18

So can you describe it? Really

20:20

dark eyes. He's

20:23

wearing a suit. Wait, is

20:25

that the first time he's seen the picture of Dred Scott? No,

20:28

it's not the first time.

20:29

But it seemed like he was noticing

20:31

things in it for the first time. Looks really

20:34

dignified and stern in that picture.

20:37

But he looks like a man who's gone through it

20:39

and is ready to go through some more.

20:41

He does. She

20:58

has to have a separate check. Yes.

21:02

No, it's just a... Okay, so at the end

21:04

of the night, I end up at the hotel bar

21:06

with another descendant. What

21:08

are you being interviewed for? I'll

21:11

let her answer that.

21:12

No, I think you should answer

21:14

that. So the

21:16

Dred Scott case is a famous Supreme

21:18

Court case. And the Chief Justice

21:20

who ruled in the case was named Roger

21:22

Brooke Taney. And so I'm a Taney.

21:24

Charlie Taney is the great,

21:27

great grand nephew of Roger

21:29

Brooke Taney, who is the Chief Justice

21:31

who basically denied Dred Scott his

21:34

freedom. He's kind of a tall

21:36

guy, white hair...

21:37

I'll take one more gin and tonic, okay. ...glasses

21:39

on tip of his nose. You know,

21:41

we had a leather-bound original

21:44

copy of that

21:46

decision. And he was actually sitting next to

21:48

three descendants from the family who originally

21:51

owned Dred Scott. They were like, come

21:53

join us. And so to my left is the

21:56

descendant of the people

21:58

who owned Dred Scott and to my right.

21:59

are the people who kept dreads got enslaved.

22:02

Are you not gonna eat one of those? I'm not. I'm just

22:05

having it. And they were all just having

22:07

gin tonics and crab cakes. I was

22:09

trying to remember that co-founder, where

22:12

he says, the past is never

22:14

dead.

22:14

It's not even past. It's

22:18

great. Can you describe the

22:20

first images you saw of Tawny? Eventually,

22:23

I steered the conversation back to Charlie

22:25

Tawny's ancestor,

22:26

Roger Tawny, the Supreme Court Justice. Well,

22:30

we had pictures of him hanging on our house, when I

22:32

grew up in the house.

22:32

It was up on the wall, and

22:35

I remember it had this light over it.

22:37

Unlike the dread Scott family, Charlie

22:39

Tawny and his daughter, Kate. Kate Tawny Billingsley

22:42

grew up knowing exactly what Roger

22:44

looks like. His skin flapped

22:47

over, and he had these long

22:49

jowls, but he was also a thin man.

22:51

He was very sickly. That's something I

22:53

really recall. He looks

22:55

like... That spooked me. That shriveled

22:58

up little old man who lives up in the house

23:00

on the hill, that hardly ever comes out of his house,

23:02

and all the kids are scared of. When's

23:08

the first time you studied the Civil War? Probably like

23:10

fifth grade, sixth grade. And

23:13

you're like sliding down in your seat when they get to the dread

23:15

Scott decision, because this is really terrible, and

23:17

that's my family. Oh my God, they did that. So

23:20

you're very aware of it. And we're also, while

23:22

you're...

23:26

Well, that's a black mark on our family. He also

23:29

ran one of the most productive courts, and

23:32

it was during a time of explosive growth

23:34

in the country.

23:35

So we're very proud of his role in helping

23:37

form America. What

23:42

he's known for is the single worst decision ever

23:44

made by the Supreme Court. If

23:47

you're a family member, it's a

23:49

little difficult to have that be the only focus. It's

23:52

incomplete. Sitting there, it

23:54

was pretty clear that Charlie Taney was kind

23:57

of like dread Scott Madison. He also

23:59

had some...

23:59

feelings. Yeah, well having read having read a

24:02

number of his letters, I think he was, I think,

24:05

you know, I think he really loved his wife and

24:07

his family and I think he was a very loving

24:10

father and he was against slavery.

24:12

It was pretty clear he thought it was a blot in the national

24:14

character.

24:15

He thought slavery was wrong?

24:18

Are we talking about Tani still? Yeah,

24:21

he felt it was wrong and should eventually be just done

24:23

away with. He told me that in one of his

24:25

legal arguments, Tani totally

24:27

railed against slave drivers. He said something the

24:29

effect of these people are

24:31

reptiles who deal in the trafficking

24:34

of human flesh.

24:36

Sitting there, Charlie tells me that

24:38

Roger Tani was trying

24:41

to save the union, that

24:43

somehow if he ruled that America

24:46

was a slaveocracy once and for

24:48

all, that might somehow

24:51

delay the Civil War. And he was trying to solve

24:53

the issue of slavery in America. That might

24:55

be true, but you can't overlook

24:58

this when you read that language, that

25:00

he was a stone

25:02

racist. I mean, he just was.

25:04

And I

25:07

asked them, like, when you

25:10

met the Scots, like, what did you feel?

25:12

Like, what did you, did you feel

25:14

like you wanted to communicate something to them?

25:16

And the blow descendant,

25:18

you know, the family who originally owned Dred

25:21

Scott, said,

25:23

yeah, yeah, like, we're sorry. And

25:26

I was like, have you ever I turned to Tani and said,

25:28

like, have you ever actually apologized?

25:31

And he was like, I don't know. I don't know if I ever use

25:33

those words. I don't recall

25:35

ever using those words.

25:46

Next day, well, welcome to the Dred

25:48

Scott Reconciliation Forum.

25:51

Day two at the forum, about 100 people

25:54

crammed into the grand ballroom of

25:56

the Hilton and a preacher.

26:00

To begin the day in our proceedings, I'd like

26:02

to ask a huge stand with me and

26:04

go to the Lord in prayer to bless these proceedings today.

26:07

Let the group in prayer. Heavenly

26:10

Father, we come to you this day seeking your

26:12

blessings in this room. And we ask,

26:14

Lord, that this reconciliation would begin

26:16

today in a profound way in each

26:18

of our hearts as we learn from our past

26:21

to move to our future. Bless

26:23

us this day and Lord, we give

26:25

you praise. In Jesus' name we pray

26:27

in the whole of God's people. Amen.

26:30

You may be seated. And then...

26:32

At this time, we

26:33

would like for all of the descendants,

26:36

if you will, to please just stand.

26:39

These descendants get up on stage one by one. I'm

26:42

so happy to be here as part of the Reconciliation Conference.

26:45

And they give like a little spiel about who they are,

26:47

what reconciliation means to them. And

26:51

a lot of people don't know that Thomas Jefferson's

26:53

wife, Martha, is a half-sister

26:56

of Sally Hemings.

26:57

Things you might not know about their ancestor.

26:59

They had the same father, John Wells.

27:02

And then, after about five people had spoken... May

27:04

I please welcome Charlie to the stage. Charlie

27:08

Taney got up to talk. Good morning.

27:11

So the first thing I'd like to do is tell

27:13

you all how glad I am to be here and a real

27:16

honor and privilege to be here. So

27:19

let me start with Roger Brooke Taney and what it was like to

27:21

grow up as a Taney. To grow

27:23

up as a Taney, in terms of how we feel about

27:25

him, it's a mixed bag. It's

27:27

a very mixed thing. Because on the one hand,

27:31

as a Taney, you're proud of him. He

27:33

was one of the longest-serving

27:36

chief justices. The Bible

27:38

he swore Lincoln in with is the same Bible that

27:40

President Obama was sworn in on. However,

27:45

that's not what he's known for. What he's known for

27:47

is one thing. He's known for

27:49

the Dred Scott decision. And

27:52

just so we all want to

27:54

get a handle on that, let

27:58

me read you a sentence that he wrote. was his

28:03

opinion at the time of the Constitution. That

28:08

African Americans, here's the quote, for

28:11

more than a century have been regarded as beings

28:14

of an inferior

28:14

order. Unfit

28:22

to associate with white the right race. So

28:25

far inferior. They

28:31

had no rights, which the white man was

28:33

bound to respect.

28:34

So,

28:41

you might be proud of him, but

28:44

you can't duck that. You

28:47

can't duck that.

28:51

So, I

28:53

looked up reconciliation. I

28:56

looked up this morning, the process

28:58

of reconciliation. And

29:01

there are three steps. The

29:03

first step is apology. The

29:06

second step is forgiveness. And

29:09

the third step is a new

29:11

trust

29:12

that grows out of that. But

29:16

someone asked Kate about this issue of apology.

29:18

And what Kate said was, my daughter said, well she said, you

29:20

know, a

29:22

time bringing an apology to a Scott

29:25

is like bringing a bandaid to an amputation. It

29:29

just, it is not

29:30

enough. But he

29:32

was like, you gotta

29:34

start somewhere. So, let's make a little

29:37

history today. From

29:40

the Tawnys, to all

29:42

the Scots,

29:43

you have our apology. Thank

29:48

you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank

29:50

you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank

29:53

you. Thank you.

29:54

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank

29:57

you. Thank you.

30:03

I spoke to Scott descendants afterwards.

30:06

How was that? What did you think of that? It's

30:09

very much more emotional than

30:12

I thought. That's great-great-granddaughter

30:14

Barbara McGregory. No one's ever apologized.

30:17

Clinton made an apology some

30:20

years ago, but coming

30:22

from him didn't mean much. But when Tony got

30:25

emotional, when

30:27

he was reading that letter, that

30:32

was more heartfelt to me than

30:35

anything else. The apology was okay,

30:38

but his emotion really touched me. Barbara,

30:41

the Dred Scott descendant, was like, when he choked up reading

30:43

that, I could feel that. Like,

30:45

that

30:46

felt

30:48

like healing. But

30:50

then I pull aside her brother.

30:53

Can I ask you what you're thinking about? How

30:55

did you respond to all that? Dred

30:58

Scott Madison, the one with the eyes.

31:00

Everything was fine. It's

31:02

just, ah, to be honest, the last

31:04

part, I'll have to puke my words

31:06

carefully. I didn't like it. I don't

31:09

think somebody should have to apologize for something they didn't

31:11

do. That's their ancestors. I

31:15

was very uncomfortable with that. The

31:19

fact that they're here is

31:21

apology enough. Apologizing for something

31:23

your ancestors did, you're part of a gene pool.

31:26

You didn't do anything. You're judged by your

31:28

works, not someone else's.

31:30

Show me

31:32

that you care. Don't tell me that you're sorry. Tell

31:34

me that you're going to do better. So

31:38

that's the only thing. Tom and I

31:40

have one. A couple

31:43

final notes.

31:46

When we talked to Dred

31:48

Scott Madison later, he was pretty clear that

31:51

Charlie Taney

31:52

is already doing a lot of good. He's

31:55

helping the Dred Scott Foundation to raise money. That's

31:58

why he felt that Charlie didn't need to abolish it. Also,

32:02

when we started the story, there were statues of Roger

32:04

Book Taney in Annapolis

32:07

and in Baltimore. This is actually how

32:10

the Taney's and Scott's, one of the

32:12

first ways they'd come together, they had decided

32:14

collectively

32:15

on a plan to amend those two

32:17

statues. Rather than take them down, they

32:20

had decided to put a Dred Scott

32:22

statue next to them. That

32:24

had been the plan. They'd been working on

32:26

it.

32:28

They had met with politicians. They'd met

32:30

with the mayor of Baltimore.

32:32

But then, as we were finishing

32:34

up the story... Good morning, Maryland.

32:37

Begins now with breaking news. Charlottesville

32:39

happened. And in the

32:41

wake of Charlottesville... And we certainly do have some

32:43

breaking news this morning. The Roger Book Taney statue

32:46

is no longer standing outside

32:48

the Maryland State House in Annapolis.

32:50

It's the latest image of a pro-slavery

32:52

icon to come down in the wake of violent

32:55

racial clashes in Charlottesville, Virginia.

32:57

Both statues were taken down in the

33:00

same week. It was really

33:02

weird out here. I'm just saying about 25 to 30 people out here.

33:06

Here's what happened. They started to rope off the street

33:08

and then at 1220 they started. And they

33:10

hoisted Taney up. There was a golf

33:12

clap when Taney came off

33:15

the pedestal here and was removed. But other

33:17

than that, everybody was quiet. Nobody

33:19

had an opinion on this. If they did, they kept

33:21

it to themselves. 145-year

33:24

history gone here tonight. And I'll get out of the way. This

33:26

is all that's left. This is the pedestal that

33:29

is left.

33:30

Since this episode

33:32

originally ran in 2017, Richard Josie, who led me on a tour through Dred Scott's room

33:40

at Fort Snelling,

33:40

now

33:49

runs a consulting company for museums

33:51

and historical organizations.

33:55

And one more update.

33:57

Until recently, a marble

33:59

bust of Chief Justice Taney sat

34:02

outside the old Supreme Court chamber at

34:04

the U.S. Capitol. But

34:06

in December 2022, Congress

34:09

passed a bill to replace Taney's bust

34:12

with one of Justice Thurgood Marshall,

34:15

the first black Supreme Court justice.

34:18

The legislation states that removing

34:20

Taney's bust does not, quote,

34:23

relieve Congress of its historical wrongs

34:25

that it took to protect slavery. But

34:28

it does allow lawmakers to

34:29

recognize one of the most notorious

34:32

wrongs that ever happened in one

34:34

of its rooms. O.J.

34:37

O.P.A. More

34:55

Perfect is a production of WNYC Studios.

34:57

This episode was produced by Julia Longoria,

35:00

along with Jad Abumrad, Susie Lectenberg,

35:02

Jenny Lawton, Kelly Prime, Sara

35:05

Garey, Sean Rameswaram, and Alex

35:07

Overington, with Ellie Nastall, Christian

35:09

Farias, Linda Hirschman, David

35:11

Gable, and Michelle Harris. It

35:13

was updated by me, Salman Aha Khan,

35:16

Sophie Hurwitz, and with help from Emily

35:18

Madre. Special thanks to Tara

35:20

Grove, Dion Riley, Soren Shade,

35:23

and Dukat Tawny Billingsley, whose play

35:25

A Man of His Time helped inspire this episode.

35:28

The More Perfect team also includes Emily Seiner,

35:30

Emily Botin, Whitney Jones, Alyssa

35:33

Eads, Gabrielle Burbet, David Herman,

35:35

Joe Plourde, Mike Kuchman, and Jenny

35:37

Lawton. Our team is by Alex Overington,

35:40

and the episode art is by Candace Evers. If

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Supreme Court audio is from O.J., a

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Legal Information

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