0:04

You get the chance in each

0:06

of these dating interactions to

0:08

practice listening, to

0:10

practice understanding another person's point

0:13

of view. And especially if you're coming

0:15

to meet a stranger, you don't

0:17

know any of this yet. We like

0:19

to try to go through the dating

0:22

apps and shortcut it

0:24

and say like, well, I saw

0:26

which emojis were on their

0:28

profile and therefore I know them.

0:31

We want to shortcut it. And I know why we

0:34

want to shortcut it because it does take a lot

0:36

of time and effort to go through

0:38

this swiping process. Apps

0:41

changed because people wanted

0:43

easy. They wanted ease of use. The

0:46

barrier for entry used to be really high

0:48

for online dating. Now it's

0:50

super low. There's no gatekeepers. It's free now.

0:52

We used to have to pay for it.

0:56

Welcome to the Multiamory podcast. I'm

0:59

Jace. I'm Emily. And

1:01

I'm Dedeker. We believe in looking to

1:04

the future of relationships, not

1:06

maintaining the status quo of the past.

1:09

Whether you're monogamous, polyamorous,

1:11

swinging, casually dating, or

1:13

if you just do relationships differently, we

1:16

see you and we're here for you. Phongs

1:20

I know I

1:23

did. Forcing

1:27

me to form

1:29

myself to fit.

1:33

On this episode of the Multiamory

1:35

podcast, we are joined once again

1:37

by Damona Hoffman, the

1:39

resident love expert of the Drew

1:42

Barrymore show, OKCupid's official dating coach,

1:44

a writer, and fellow podcaster. Damona

1:46

is the host of the award-winning

1:49

podcast, Dates and Mates. We

1:51

were on an episode of that titled

1:53

Multiamory and Short King Spring. She

1:56

is also an advice columnist for the

1:59

LA Times and a writer on Dating.

2:01

in Relationships for the Washington Post. Today

2:03

we will be talking about to Mona's

2:05

new upcoming book s the Fairy Tale

2:08

Rewriting, the Dating Miss and Live your

2:10

Own Love Story. Dimona,

2:12

Thank you so much for joining us today. At

2:15

so nice to be. Back with year think you.

2:18

Know. A weird question to start

2:20

out with. Cause I noticed that you chose

2:22

to title the book as the fairy Tale instead

2:24

of doing i think the other thing that writers

2:26

do which is like. S Star

2:28

Star Star The Fairy Tale.

2:30

A you know it was or it with are

2:32

a lot of discussion and. You know greece about

2:35

that when you're trying to make that decision about the

2:37

title. Lousy. You all

2:39

have published a book and supposed to

2:41

some you know his own decisions are

2:43

made by committee Is it. And

2:46

that was says what we landed on,

2:48

but there's a lot of discussion originally

2:50

and had a completely different title. But.

2:53

I really felt like this

2:55

title captured the dating site

2:57

dice of the moment in

2:59

our adjust. That's what I

3:01

hear on Dates and Made Set

3:03

So they hear from people that

3:05

are just so so exhausted and

3:07

frustrated by dating today. And so

3:10

I wanted to really capture that ceiling that a

3:12

lot of people are having. But. Then

3:14

also offer a more

3:17

hopeful. Way. To look at.

3:19

Being. Able to move forward in dating and

3:21

relationships. Yeah. So your book

3:24

is based around what you identify

3:26

as for Major Miss that can

3:28

complicate the dating process and it's

3:30

and hold us back from finding

3:32

success. A. When. It dies

3:34

into those myths. Shortly, but before we

3:36

do. Is. There one single

3:38

piece of bad dating advice out

3:40

there that gets under your skin

3:42

and you just wish would go

3:44

away. I. Just hate the

3:47

phrase love will happen when you least

3:49

expect it. Interesting

3:51

and says. Proven. That

3:53

to be false. So many times because I've

3:55

been doing this, I've been putting people. For.

3:58

Over seventeen year. And

4:00

I've just seen that every time one

4:03

of my clients puts the same focus Towards

4:06

finding the relationship that they want that they

4:08

do everything else that they're successful at And

4:12

they're able to get their needs met and

4:15

I I just

4:17

haven't it doesn't it doesn't

4:19

really happen this idea where it's just gonna

4:21

fall in your lap I think that's a myth and

4:24

that's part of the you know the fairy tales and

4:27

look I love a rom-com as much as the next

4:29

gal, but I Think they

4:31

kind of they kind of did us dirty,

4:33

right? They made sure think

4:35

that relationships were supposed to be one way or that

4:38

it was supposed to happen a certain way and Then

4:41

people get angry when I say well, let's

4:43

put a process around finding love. They're like

4:45

no That's how it

4:47

is in Drew Barrymore movies and

4:50

even Drew Barrymore agrees So

4:53

funny I love that it's funny I

4:55

was recently watching a rom-com with a

4:58

friend of mine and through

5:00

the whole thing. I'm I can't help myself

5:02

I'm like commenting on oh, that's not actually

5:04

a very healthy way to look at relationships

5:06

You're like, oh, that's not how stuff works

5:08

And then I'm also crying at the end

5:10

of the movie as they finally get together

5:12

and then afterward I'm like, yeah No, it

5:14

was terrible romance. It's not a healthy relationship.

5:16

I don't think it's gonna last but like

5:18

it still gets me You've been

5:20

programmed so caught up. Yes So caught up

5:22

and all my favorite rom-coms are like

5:25

anti rom-coms like I love my best

5:27

friend's wedding Which is like

5:30

a rock It's

5:35

kind of this woman is trying to steal

5:38

her best friend away from the

5:40

person that he's Marrying in

5:42

love with and she's trying to like sabotage

5:45

the whole thing. It's like not a that's

5:47

not a that's not healthy either Well,

5:50

so okay what I'm curious about though is

5:52

I think that piece of advice I love is

5:54

gonna happen when you least expect it I think

5:56

there is the rom-com version of that that it

5:58

is gonna be a mystical fairy tale well,

6:00

but sometimes I think that advice gets

6:02

trotted out to people who

6:04

are feeling really frustrated by the dating process or

6:07

feeling like, oh my God, I'm so sick of

6:09

these apps. I'm so sick of going on dates.

6:11

I'm so sick of like putting in effort. And

6:13

then I think that advice is like, oh, you

6:15

got to, it's like a butterfly. Once

6:17

you stop trying to catch it, it's going to land

6:19

on your nose and it's going to be great. And

6:22

so I guess I wonder in that situation when someone's

6:24

coming to you being like, I'm frustrated

6:26

by what I perceive is the

6:28

level of effort I'm putting into this. Like where

6:30

do you guide people in that situation? The

6:33

butterfly analogy is a good one because I don't

6:35

know if you've ever caught a butterfly, but

6:38

I've never caught a butterfly by

6:40

letting it just land in my hands either.

6:42

You know, but we, we

6:45

put these narratives around it. I think it's exactly

6:47

what you said, Dedeker, but it's,

6:50

it's to address that feeling

6:52

of frustration and to

6:55

allow people the space to be like,

6:58

it's okay. It's okay. It hasn't happened

7:00

for you yet, but it still can

7:02

happen. And while

7:04

I say this book is hopeful, it's

7:07

not hopeful, just like wish,

7:09

pray, hope. It's hopeful in

7:11

that I want to give people their power

7:13

back. I want to give people

7:15

their agency and their voice and their autonomy

7:17

and their choice. And we have so much

7:19

more choice. We've talked about this before when

7:21

you are on dates and mates, like we

7:24

have choice now about

7:26

how we even want to

7:28

show up in relationships, how we want

7:30

to form our relationships, who

7:32

we want to allow into our circle, how

7:35

we find that person in a

7:37

way that my parents didn't have

7:39

as much choice and certainly my grandparents didn't have

7:41

that much choice. And we have

7:44

very short memories. It

7:46

hasn't been that long that

7:48

we've had this much freedom

7:50

and agency in relationships. And

7:52

so I don't want to just throw up my

7:55

hands and be like, It'll just

7:57

happen when I know that. It

8:00

happens a lot faster and a lot of

8:02

times it's much more for selling. If.

8:05

You go about it from my

8:07

more mindful place. Well. So

8:09

I feel it. Before we can get

8:11

to mindfulness, there's these miss. There's like

8:13

the bullshit that we need to. Cut.

8:16

Out So. Well what are

8:18

what are the four? Major miss? can you? Can

8:20

you give us just the cliff? Notes: Version

8:22

of these miss that you think

8:24

and hold us back. Yes

8:27

so I do identify for measurements and the

8:29

book. When I first wrote the book it

8:31

was gonna be the modern love meth and

8:33

I had like sistine mess that my father

8:35

was like. Let's. Narrow it down a

8:37

little bit so it's as if my for

8:40

is a pretty proud of narrowing the arena.

8:42

A good job, good job into. You

8:44

know and I think people reading it will. Identify

8:46

some of their own myths to but

8:49

the for biggest ones that I see

8:51

stopping people from having the relationship. Say

8:53

what? Are. The List:

8:55

smith. This. Is were

8:57

checking boxes and we're.

9:00

Looking. For. Somebody.

9:02

Based on it's a lessons on even our

9:04

list. Like a list somebody else gave. Us

9:07

some really the i'm go to the grocery

9:09

store for them or right? oh. Said get

9:11

eggs and been around said i got on

9:13

even though it is forever as was only

9:15

get ah so the list met is the

9:17

first one. And. Then the

9:19

chemistry man. There's. The

9:22

soul mate men and then there's also

9:24

the rules mess and so the chemistry

9:26

met. This is this idea that it's

9:28

gonna be butterfly his set in the

9:30

butterflies or even good that it's supposed

9:33

to feel a certain way. And.

9:35

Don't like that. I and I think

9:37

there's so much more room for how

9:40

it can. Feel when we don't have the

9:42

clarity on how we wanted to seal. Will.

9:45

Just say anything you know it's it'll just

9:47

be that the spark and in the instant

9:49

attraction and then you're like. Wait,

9:52

Why is this not sustaining? Said.

9:54

That is. A. Big one.

9:57

The Rules myth really sort

9:59

of started. When we first

10:01

started training game dating. And

10:03

you know, play. All of

10:05

these like. The. Books like the

10:07

rules and the books like the game

10:10

you that were like. Follow this these

10:12

steps and you will get what you

10:14

want. Whether it's a hook up, whether

10:16

it's relationship. You. Will get it it's

10:19

in the rules it was get the ring

10:21

that was the only goal that was the

10:23

only the only and point. And.

10:26

I first of all, don't

10:28

think that that's the end

10:30

point right now and I

10:32

also feel like things are

10:34

so dynamic in dating and

10:36

relationships especially today that I.

10:39

I. Really can't give you a

10:41

formula. For. Finding love. But I

10:43

can give you the tools that. I.

10:45

Have seen consistently. Lead to

10:47

love and I would rather have the tools than

10:49

the rules. And. The soul mate man.

10:52

I'm really curious to hear your thoughts on

10:54

this because. I. Do see it

10:56

keeping a lot of people single. This.

10:59

Idea that that. There's

11:02

someone destined. That. Is

11:04

predestined for you and that your job

11:07

is to. Find. Your other

11:09

half? I mean, obviously. That

11:11

doesn't fit for. Non.

11:13

Monogamy that doesn't fit for a lot

11:15

of people's relationships. So. I

11:18

don't like the soul mate mess. I don't

11:20

like this idea of sell wine and you

11:22

know I mean I. I've been with

11:24

my husband for twenty years. And

11:26

I'm in a monogamous relationship and I

11:29

still don't believe in the one I

11:31

think you make. Whoever. You

11:33

choose to make the ones or the

11:35

one at that time. I. Like

11:37

that take on it again. I think

11:39

about the lot actually because there is

11:41

like a functional. Side to how I think about

11:43

soulmates, which is which is very much that, right? On

11:46

what, I don't think there's any kind

11:48

of magical predestined why and out there

11:50

for you. That you have to

11:52

find at all costs Sometimes. I.

11:54

Like to think about it the same way that

11:57

may. As an adult, I'd like to think about

11:59

Santa Claus. In a sense for a third. Who

12:01

it could have fun to think about like. Oh

12:04

my goodness, what as meant to be with his

12:06

first and then like it's cosmetic and it's so

12:08

romantic and and wow how amazingly found each other!

12:11

But. I don't believe that that's the sound

12:13

nation of our relationship. And I as

12:15

a non monogamous person. Are indulge in that

12:17

with multiple people. were as the only guy

12:19

was meant to be with these two people.

12:21

Wow! The so magical that so great but

12:23

it but that nine I don't know whenever

12:25

I'm dating that's not necessary the think I'm

12:27

looking for so I guess it's kind of

12:29

like. Like. I like to

12:31

play with the magic but not

12:34

necessarily use as this is my

12:36

guiding lights. When you think

12:38

days now that's fun. I feel like

12:40

there's a lot of stuff that I

12:42

approach kind of in a similar way

12:44

of. I think these these concepts can

12:46

be helpful actually don't think the soul

12:48

mate one is particularly helpful, but you

12:50

know we we talk about on the

12:52

show where will look at you know,

12:54

researcher science and things like that and

12:56

we always give the caviar of. This

12:59

is always looking at averages. There's bias that

13:01

comes into it. It can't really tell us

13:03

the whole picture, but it's really useful. And.

13:06

Then on the other side we have these

13:08

very woo woo and you know positive thinking

13:10

and like other energy you're putting out into

13:12

the world and whatever which I I also

13:15

think. Is useful, but I also think

13:17

it's nonsense at the same time, right? And so

13:19

it's like I don't want to put. Too

13:22

much stock into it, but that doesn't

13:24

mean it's still not useful or helpful

13:26

to think about. If it's

13:28

useful are helpful. And so I think to

13:31

come back to the soul mate Miss. This.

13:33

Is one that. I think really

13:35

indulging in how happy you are in

13:37

your relationship if you're in one that

13:39

makes you happy Great! I just have

13:41

never seen a positive outcome from the

13:44

soul mate Miss Ever. i've

13:46

seen either what you talked about dimona

13:48

which is keeping people single thinking that

13:50

there's someone who's gonna be more fairytale

13:52

perfect and so that keeps them that

13:55

way or it causes people to rush

13:57

into getting married or having children or

13:59

moving in together with someone because it

14:01

feels like they think the fairy tale

14:03

is and they go, ah, well, if

14:06

soulmates are true and they

14:08

feel like this, this feels like

14:10

that, therefore, I can make

14:12

all of these very serious, very

14:14

legally binding commitments with this person,

14:17

even if it's just a cell

14:19

phone plan or adopting a puppy

14:21

that, you know, I can jump into those too

14:23

soon. So, I see negative on both sides of this

14:25

one. Yeah, I

14:28

agree with you and I would also

14:30

add it keeps people single because it

14:32

keeps people from not even

14:34

wanting to engage because they're like, well,

14:37

the magical thing hasn't happened. So, I

14:39

don't know what it's supposed to feel

14:42

like but is this it? And

14:45

this idea of like, I'm

14:48

searching for this perfect

14:50

person then sometimes keeps you

14:52

from seeing what's right in front of

14:54

you and then any

14:56

issue that arises, you're like, oh,

14:59

they must not be my soulmate then. If

15:02

we have conflict, then

15:05

it's not meant to be. And

15:07

I actually feel like in

15:10

relationships, the conflict is

15:12

the opportunity. It's

15:15

the opportunity for self growth.

15:18

It's opportunity for getting to know that

15:20

other person better. And

15:23

you know, we talked about this on dates

15:26

and dates around your book

15:28

to clarify communication. It's

15:30

all an opportunity. It's how you

15:32

look at it and sometimes it doesn't end

15:34

the way that you hope

15:36

it will end and sometimes it doesn't where

15:39

you imagine it will lead but, you know, I think we

15:42

don't always get what you want, you get what you

15:44

need, you know. And if you can

15:46

flip your perspective, you can find

15:50

deeper meaning in any

15:52

dating or relationship interaction. I

15:55

say that caveat asterisk, this

15:57

does not apply for relationship.

16:00

relationships that have abused her

16:02

obviously. That is, I have to

16:04

say it because if I don't

16:06

say it, people will be like, but what if? Okay.

16:08

Yeah. But I

16:10

mean like any other type of

16:13

relationship I think there's learning to

16:15

be had and growth to be explored. That's

16:18

always a challenging balance to find and I

16:20

think it's something that comes up a lot

16:22

on this show is on the

16:25

one hand being too picky and at

16:27

the first sign of conflict or discomfort.

16:29

Oh, well, that's not the one because

16:31

it's not the fairy tale, they're gone.

16:34

Or on the other hand is this, well,

16:37

but I felt like this one has a

16:39

good shot and I'm scared of being alone

16:41

and I don't think I'm gonna find anyone

16:43

else. So I'm gonna stay in this relationship

16:46

and just kind of say, well, I guess

16:48

it's better than nothing. And it's

16:51

like, no, actually there's a lot of things better than

16:53

that. And

16:55

it's like hard to find how to guide

16:57

people on that balance because it's not just

16:59

something you can objectively look at and go,

17:01

oh, if this is going on,

17:03

it's bad. If this is going on, it's good because

17:05

that might be different for different people.

17:08

And I'm not even talking about abusive

17:10

situations, but just to perfectly find people

17:12

who just are not a good

17:14

fit, don't have values that line up just,

17:17

right? It's not there. Yeah,

17:20

well, you're kind of hitting on

17:22

the pillars, which is the antidote

17:24

to the myths and

17:26

values are really key.

17:28

That is one of the primary

17:31

filters that people should put in

17:33

place before they invest in a

17:35

relationship. Because values don't

17:37

change all that much. Goals

17:40

sometimes change, but I say goals and

17:43

values are really the two drivers of

17:45

long-term compatibility. But

17:47

largely people stay the same. And

17:50

we try to make it fit because

17:52

maybe we're trying to catch a butterfly

17:54

or trying to feel some magic. And

17:56

look, I love magic as much as

17:59

an ex- person. I actually really love magic

18:01

and I love the wonder and I

18:04

love the discovery and I feel like I

18:06

have that but some of it I have to

18:08

create and I like

18:10

that better than even what I've

18:12

seen in the rom-coms

18:14

and the fairy tales. Dr. Mary Gamba

18:17

Yeah, can you expound on that? Can you

18:19

give some examples because yeah, we've

18:21

talked a lot about values on the show and

18:23

I think finding out what your values

18:25

are is so important for your life

18:27

in general, not just for dating but

18:30

I find sometimes people get a little

18:33

confused and a little lost, you know,

18:35

like me valuing dating someone who's six

18:37

foot five. Is that a value or

18:40

is that something that's on a list or

18:42

you know, like are we talking about political

18:44

values? Like I guess I'm kind of wondering

18:46

like how can people get in touch with

18:49

that and can you share some examples

18:51

of I guess how you look for

18:53

values in another person or look for

18:55

matching values in another person? Dr. Mary

18:57

Gamba Yeah, well, you did hit

19:00

on some values and then some

19:02

lists and the funny thing with the

19:04

list is that people will always say

19:06

that well, they've got their list

19:09

and their list is the exact same list

19:12

as the next person that comes to

19:14

me for help, you know, it's like must

19:16

be this tall, must make this much money,

19:18

must have this color hair, must drive this

19:20

car, like whatever it is, it's

19:22

so similar and the values really

19:25

are completely unique and individual to you

19:27

and we look for

19:29

shortcuts, we look for, you

19:31

know, religion is a proxy

19:34

for, we think, for

19:36

some similarity in values when,

19:39

you know, we all know someone

19:41

could be of the same

19:43

fate and live their life completely

19:46

differently and have completely

19:48

different values or we

19:50

look at politics, I give an example and

19:52

if the fairy tale about a couple that

19:54

I matched for a Washington Post date lab

19:57

date like on that column, we have a

19:59

date of date. database and

20:01

we set them up and then we do kind of

20:03

a play-by-play of what happened on

20:05

the date after we interview them after.

20:08

And these folks were both

20:11

identified as liberals working

20:13

in D.C. The political affiliation

20:15

takes on a whole different meaning. They

20:18

both identified themselves as liberals. And

20:20

after the date, the

20:22

woman told me that she sent a

20:24

text and asked the guy what he

20:27

thought of Andrew Yang

20:29

being a NYC mayoral candidate.

20:32

And I don't know exactly what was in the text

20:35

but whatever he said, it was the wrong thing. And

20:38

I just thought, okay, first of all,

20:40

we already established that you're both liberals

20:43

and you also cannot vote in

20:45

that hypothetical election that is taking

20:48

place in another city. But

20:50

to her, it had so many

20:52

different levels of meaning that she

20:55

was trying to and it all

20:57

happened over text, which we've talked

20:59

about like the challenges of digital

21:01

communication. Like that is not

21:03

the conversation to have over text and that's not really the

21:05

filter. So I would want to

21:08

get if I were coaching them and not just writing

21:10

about the date, I'd want to get underneath that of

21:12

why is this important to you? And

21:14

what are you trying to figure out by asking

21:16

the question about Andrew Yang? Like

21:19

what does that mean to you? And

21:22

then what meaning are you extrapolating

21:24

from his answer? And

21:26

we try to get down to the root

21:29

of values are really how you look at

21:31

the world and the way

21:33

that you live your life. And that

21:35

cannot be distilled into a label.

21:38

It can't be identified

21:40

based on a particular candidate that you

21:42

cannot vote for. It's

21:45

not as simple as that and it's

21:47

really a process. That's why I

21:49

always do begin with mindset because I

21:51

find that most people do not have

21:53

that clarity on what their values

21:56

are and they are dating by list

21:58

thinking that they're dating by

22:00

value? Well, I think this comes up

22:02

with the clients that I work with because, you

22:05

know, I work with a lot of non-monogamous clients. And

22:07

so often it becomes about what's

22:09

the perfect way that I can...what's

22:12

the perfect label I can put on my particular type

22:14

of non-monogamy so that I can put that on a

22:16

dating profile and I can match with people who put

22:18

that same label on their dating

22:20

profile. And I do think that

22:22

falls into the same problems as the, oh,

22:24

we both identify as liberals, therefore,

22:27

it's going to be an automatic match. You know,

22:29

that there does have to be more of this

22:31

deep dive process into like, well, what does this

22:33

label mean to you? And if this other person doesn't

22:35

use that label, what does that mean to you? And

22:38

like, really, what are the actual questions you

22:40

should be asking of somebody outside of just

22:42

what label do you use for like your

22:44

type of relationship practice?

22:47

Yeah, we're a little too addicted

22:49

to labels, aren't we? Yeah.

22:53

Yeah. And we're always searching

22:55

for... I think it's that need

22:57

to sort of explain ourselves and we're

22:59

looking for shortcuts, we're looking for hacks.

23:02

And so much of the time too,

23:04

the label that we think doesn't actually

23:06

even send out the message

23:09

that we're trying to send out. You know, it's like,

23:11

and this is why I started originally as a dating

23:13

profile writer, you know, and I would... Somebody

23:15

would say to me, well, I don't like online dating

23:17

or online dating doesn't work. And I'd ask them to

23:19

tell me what they were looking for. And

23:22

then I'd look at their dating profile and I'm

23:24

like, you're not saying at all what you think

23:26

you're saying. Like my very first client

23:28

wanted to get married, wanted to have

23:30

kids. He was like, I think in

23:32

his early 40s and was like,

23:35

I'm ready to settle down, you know, do

23:37

whatever I saw in rom coms and fairytales. And

23:40

I looked at his profile and I was

23:43

like, you have photos of

23:45

yourself with kids and you don't have

23:47

kids already. So why

23:49

do you have this? And

23:51

he was like, well, you know, I thought it made me

23:53

look like dadly, you

23:57

know, it like sent a message that

23:59

I was like... looking for

24:01

someone to have a family

24:03

with. And I said, that's not at

24:05

all what it says. It says, I

24:08

already have a kid and that's

24:10

a whole conversation and if

24:12

you're interested in me, you're also interested in my

24:15

kid and it's not even your kid. So

24:17

there's all of these little labels

24:19

or little cues that we'll put

24:21

out there with one intention and

24:23

sometimes it does take someone like

24:25

you or I or just an

24:27

outside person to say, I don't think

24:30

that's what you're trying to say. It's

24:33

funny how much that comes up because just

24:35

this morning I was looking at a kind

24:38

of I guess an acquaintance of mine posting

24:40

on LinkedIn about looking for a job because

24:42

there were a lot of layoffs in the

24:45

entertainment industry recently because of the actor's strike

24:47

and the writer's strike. So

24:49

people are now looking for jobs again but

24:51

reading his post, I kind of wanted to reach

24:53

out and I felt like this would be super

24:56

inappropriate but wanted to reach out and say, here's

24:59

how your post is coming across. I

25:01

don't think that's how you mean for it

25:04

to come across. Like it just came across

25:06

as either a complainy or desperate

25:08

or something when I'm like, I know this person

25:10

and I know that's not what you're going for

25:12

and that's not what you're like but it can

25:14

be easy to just end up communicating something that

25:16

we don't think we are. Oh

25:19

and that's a whole other challenge

25:21

in when we layer in social media and

25:24

how we're speaking to different audiences,

25:27

right, in different places and sliding

25:30

into the DMs is steadily

25:32

growing as another way

25:34

to meet people, you know, legitimately.

25:37

I was just at a matchmaking conference and I

25:40

found out there's a bunch of matchmakers that are

25:42

using LinkedIn. I

25:44

literally did not even know. Wow. I

25:47

think it is, yeah, is where I have not

25:49

done that. Yeah, well,

25:52

hey, maybe this person can't get a job but

25:54

maybe they could get a date. If

25:56

you're right, possibly. Probably not with

25:59

the complaining. all that but yeah,

26:02

when you really consider

26:04

what you're putting out into the world and you

26:07

think about it not from the perspective of like this

26:09

is what I have to say but this

26:12

is what I'm trying to convey, this

26:14

is what I want to attract and

26:17

what is that person looking

26:19

for? What would that, what

26:21

would catch that person's attention? It

26:24

totally flips the experience because most people

26:27

date as if

26:29

they are the protagonist in their love story which they

26:32

have been but there's

26:34

something interesting that happens when

26:36

you say, okay, take the

26:38

third person here, like take a different

26:40

point of view and

26:42

look at it from the perspective of

26:45

whoever is looking at you instead

26:47

of from your own vantage point

26:49

and then you can see things that were not clear.

26:52

I don't know how that will help your friend and

26:56

their post problem but

26:59

if you could say that to them,

27:01

it might give them a different angle

27:04

on the post. And

27:06

having an outside set of eyes can

27:08

really help too whether that's someone in

27:10

a professional capacity or

27:12

that's just having friends who

27:14

you trust to, it's kind of this weird thing of like

27:17

you want a friend that you trust but that maybe doesn't

27:19

know you so well that they'll end

27:21

up writing the same stuff you would, you

27:24

know, like they have to be different enough from you

27:26

maybe. Well, you don't want to have

27:28

that negative Nancy friend that's like,

27:30

you know, they've been burned

27:32

so many times and they're like, why

27:34

do you even? I

27:37

have that too, like, you know, people that

27:39

I was dating that my friends were like,

27:41

why are you with that person? Somebody said

27:43

to me, don't yuck somebody else's

27:46

yum. And I was

27:48

like, you know, in dating sometimes

27:50

I got my yum yucked and

27:53

then I was like, well, wait, why do

27:55

I want to date this person? And that's

27:57

another thing that shifted so much with social

27:59

media. be an online dating, dating

28:02

has become a lot more public. Yes.

28:05

Yeah. We didn't remember. Like

28:07

a performance part. We didn't used to tell people,

28:09

oh, you know, I have a first date with this person, I'm going

28:11

out with this person a second time. I

28:14

even dating this person, like it was a

28:16

big thing for me to

28:18

be debuted at my husband's

28:21

birthday party when we

28:23

had been dating I think maybe five

28:25

weeks or something. Like that

28:27

was a thing for me to meet

28:29

his friends and now I

28:32

just feel like everybody's sort of

28:34

dating by committee. So

28:37

you have to be careful, right? You have

28:39

to be careful about the inputs that you're

28:41

letting in and whether they have

28:43

the same values, goals and

28:45

your best interests at heart. So

28:48

I'm, you know, I have this

28:50

particularly, I keep wanting to go back to

28:52

the myths because I keep looking at them

28:54

and I'm realizing something that

28:57

it seems like they all have in common is this is

28:59

a way that we feel like we're going to get back

29:01

control and safety in the dating process, right?

29:03

So if I have a rigid list of

29:05

qualities that gives me a sense of control,

29:08

if I feel like I can lean

29:10

on a formula, a set of rules that gives

29:12

me a sense of safety, if I feel like,

29:15

oh, like, you know, I'm going to chase chemistry so that

29:17

I'll know it, you know, when I feel it and that's

29:20

going to be my cue that gives me a sense of

29:22

safety. And then the soulmate thing also, oh, maybe it's predestined.

29:24

So it's okay. I don't need to think about

29:26

it too much. And I imagine that

29:28

letting go of some of these things

29:31

is really scary for a lot of

29:33

people. So I'm curious about when you're

29:35

working as a coach, it's like, how do you

29:37

disabuse people of some of these things or do

29:40

you find that there's particular things that people have

29:42

a much harder time letting go of than

29:44

other things? That's

29:46

a really good question and a

29:48

very astute observation. I'm

29:51

like, I hadn't thought of it

29:53

as related to control, but I

29:55

did write the book with the

29:57

intention of giving back more

29:59

control. control. More like actual control

30:01

it sounds like. Actual control. Yeah.

30:04

Yeah. And I'm

30:06

not interested in pointing fingers at

30:09

anybody, telling everyone that

30:11

you're wrong, your dating life is wrong, you've been

30:14

doing it wrong. I'm just

30:16

interested in getting to the truth.

30:20

And that's what I see that we're also a

30:22

little bit afraid of. That's

30:24

why we're seeing so much ghosting. That's

30:27

why we're seeing people staying in relationships

30:29

that are not right because we all

30:31

have this fear, this fear

30:34

if I let this person go, who else

30:36

is going to, is there someone else that's going to

30:38

come in or this feeling

30:40

that if I open

30:43

up and I really share what's in

30:45

my heart and what I want, whether

30:47

that's even I want

30:50

non-monogamy or I want a

30:53

commitment, I want marriage. Like

30:55

whatever it is, we get so

30:57

afraid of the truth, of

30:59

the outcome that we stuff

31:02

down what we actually want

31:04

to say and that's only

31:06

hurting us. We

31:08

have to be willing to take a risk. We

31:10

have to be willing to express what we want

31:13

if we're going to get our needs met. Yeah.

31:15

I think that so much

31:18

of the pain and suffering I

31:20

tend to see people go through, particularly in

31:22

the dating process. There's

31:25

tons of pain and suffering that goes through in

31:27

other steps of the relationship. But particularly in the

31:29

dating process, so much of it does seem related

31:31

to someone feeling, I

31:34

don't know, shame about some particular thing that they want

31:36

or something that they're looking for, something that they're hoping

31:38

that their partner will give them and they feel like

31:40

they can't say it because it's too shameful

31:43

or too vulnerable. And so then we end up

31:45

in these weird dances, you know,

31:47

whether it is like I have

31:49

to ghost because I don't know how to say

31:51

to this person, I'm not that interested, sorry, you

31:53

know, thank you for the time we spent or

31:56

I need to keep that at arm's length

31:58

because I haven't gotten the cues that I thought they were going

32:00

to do. that I would get that would let me know it's

32:02

going to be safe for me to say, yes, actually, I'm interested

32:04

in a commitment that like, yeah, I

32:06

think that that's really up that there is

32:08

something about the truth about ourselves and that

32:10

and what we want that feels just like

32:13

too scary to actually put out

32:16

to put out there for somebody. Yeah,

32:19

I think you're right. There is there's

32:22

definitely some shame underneath that.

32:24

And yeah, even I talk

32:27

in the book about single shame,

32:29

like people that understandably in the

32:32

society that we live in don't

32:34

even want to say I'm single

32:36

and say I'm single and

32:38

looking, I'm single and I'm not looking, you

32:41

know, we we don't

32:43

we feel like if we define it,

32:46

then I don't know. It's

32:48

like takes us back to being on

32:50

the playground and somebody pointing

32:53

at us and being like that person's out.

32:56

I know because I'm terrible at sports and

32:58

I was the last one picked every time

33:00

on literally didn't matter what

33:02

sport it was. I was the last one. It

33:05

was going to be big. I have

33:07

that same baggage around sports always last

33:09

to be picked. Oh,

33:11

man. Yeah. And you know, so, you know, I

33:13

talked about how I

33:15

really was very cynical about love for a

33:17

long time. I didn't I just didn't I

33:20

didn't see myself finding a relationship.

33:22

I didn't I didn't even

33:25

know if I wanted what I

33:27

have now. Now I know I

33:29

did. But that fear of

33:31

rejection keeps us playing small.

33:34

And I had to

33:36

really step into more of myself,

33:38

my own authenticity, my own truth,

33:41

to be able to attract the

33:44

best relationship for me. So

33:47

maybe this is related to the

33:49

topic at hand. But in your

33:51

book, you talk about dating samskaras.

33:54

And what is a dating samskar? And how

33:56

many sun salutations do we have to

33:58

do to release these samskaras? scaras. One

34:01

hundred and eight. Okay, great. Oh, that's an

34:03

auspicious number. That's an auspicious number. Great. You

34:06

know. Yeah, I

34:09

borrow in the book from a lot of different methodologies

34:11

that I have used to

34:13

help me grow into the person

34:16

that I am and the person that I'm becoming.

34:19

And yoga is one of those

34:21

methodologies and philosophies. And

34:23

we have always talked in yoga

34:25

about some scars or patterns. They

34:29

were described to me by my teachers as you

34:31

think of it as like a groove, like a

34:33

well-worn scar that you go over

34:35

and over and over again. So

34:38

the more that you say a phrase,

34:40

the more that you have a belief, the more

34:42

that you will act in a certain way and

34:44

the more that you put that in your body.

34:47

And there are these samskaras, we tend

34:49

to think of them as

34:51

all negative, but you can actually shift

34:54

your samskaras. So if you even just think of a

34:57

routine that you have, like getting

34:59

up and working out in the morning, that could

35:02

be a form of a samskara.

35:05

And if you don't have that routine in your

35:07

life, replacing sleeping

35:09

in and playing with your

35:12

dog in the morning instead of getting up and

35:14

going for a run, you can

35:16

shift your whole experience by

35:19

changing that negative

35:22

behavior or that behavior that isn't serving

35:24

what you ultimately want with a more

35:26

positive one. So I apply that

35:28

to dating because I see a lot of people

35:31

having dating patterns that they haven't

35:33

been able to look at yet

35:36

or they haven't been able to change, having

35:38

dating beliefs, phrases that they've repeated

35:40

again and again and again. And

35:45

I find that when we start to

35:48

go after a different narrative and

35:50

we catch ourselves, we catch how

35:52

often we are playing out

35:54

that old narrative and

35:56

we replace it with the new narrative

35:59

that that or orders our actions in a

36:01

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36:03

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41:27

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41:29

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41:32

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41:34

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help.com/multi. So

42:42

I imagine some examples of this that

42:44

probably come up a lot from

42:46

frustrated people would be things like there's

42:49

just no one out there for me,

42:51

I keep running into

42:53

failure or I think you know right now

42:55

the hetero pessimism is just rampant and so

42:58

it's like all men are trash or

43:00

just dating over the age of whatever

43:02

age is just impossible like are those the

43:04

kind of things that you find that you

43:06

run into when you're working with people? Yeah,

43:09

I've heard all of those things that

43:11

you mentioned and more. I have proven

43:13

them not to be true if

43:16

you don't believe them to be true.

43:18

I even talk in the book too

43:20

about race and there's so many beliefs

43:22

about race and you know I'm speaking as

43:24

a multi-racial

43:27

person. There's a

43:29

lot of beliefs that we hold because

43:32

of our lived experience, because of the

43:34

society that we live in and then

43:36

sometimes we make

43:39

assumptions that other people hold those

43:41

same beliefs and I think

43:44

the magic, I think the discovery

43:47

is in figuring out what beliefs

43:49

other people actually do. And

43:51

sometimes they're not the big

43:53

bad story that we're telling ourselves. I

43:56

think that's great. It also reminds me

43:58

of Something that... It's been

44:00

awhile since we've talked about it on

44:02

the show, but this idea of holding

44:04

a little less tightly to the things

44:07

that we believe our to and it's

44:09

interesting to think of it in that

44:11

way of also hold less tightly to

44:13

the idea that everyone believes this thing.

44:15

Because. That's a real trap people can

44:18

fall into and on all different sides.

44:20

Whether it's assuming everyone else thinks these

44:22

negative things or it's assuming everyone else

44:24

thinks this one particular thing is easy.

44:27

And. Good. And. And then

44:29

it's actually not true for some other people. and you

44:31

can be a real jerk if you go out without

44:33

a sunset and so. That's. Such a really

44:35

interesting thing to think about, both for others

44:38

and for ourselves as holding a little less

44:40

tightly to some of those beliefs. Oh

44:43

that is really interesting perspectives and

44:45

I I love that discovery of

44:47

what are the police and and

44:50

allowing those it believes to evolve

44:52

and especially because of social media

44:54

and just mean in general the

44:57

way that we have all kind

44:59

of been silo into our own

45:01

belief systems and then. Had

45:04

the same beliefs repeated to us.

45:06

It's so interesting seeing people not

45:08

as independent saw it and you're

45:10

like I literally like I saw

45:13

that video. You're literally just repeating

45:15

that tic tac video and you

45:17

think that that's your your own

45:19

opinion? But. It's not even. And there's

45:21

ten other people that made that same video. It's

45:25

spooky, relaying and.

45:27

I. Feel like this is not

45:30

necessarily related to dating? I think

45:32

in general we could. All.

45:34

Back off from our own corners a

45:36

little bit and get a lot further.

45:39

By. Looking for. His.

45:41

We are all more alike than we

45:43

are different. And if we can

45:46

look for the commonalities instead of being like

45:48

oh, you're different sets a red flag. This

45:50

is a So. And. Put and

45:52

we pushed so much away because we

45:54

haven't done that process of like being

45:56

willing to just examine our own belief.

45:59

Actually, this one I really love about

46:01

my husband. He is really great. At.

46:03

Holding multiple points of view,

46:06

And even if some he doesn't

46:08

agree with someone, he's an excellent

46:11

listener. And. That's. One

46:13

of the things I just love in our

46:15

relationship. I love talking to him about complex

46:17

issues. Because. He always helps

46:19

me see a perspective. That. I

46:21

didn't know. Even if I come in

46:23

at ten am a sagittarius I'm always

46:25

come in as through. Black.

46:28

Jewish woman. But. I'm.

46:30

Coming in at a ten and

46:32

he's like, well, but I love

46:34

that and I know not everyone

46:36

loves that discovery, but I think

46:38

there's I've experienced that there's. There's.

46:42

That's really where. Relationships get

46:44

really interesting. That. Ability.

46:46

For your husband to hold multiple points of

46:49

view at once, I. Would imagine that

46:51

that's really helpful with. Conflict Also,

46:53

because I do think that.

46:55

So much of that is is being able. To.

46:57

Hold. Okay, I have my

47:00

particular perspective on this isn't my. Partner also

47:02

has a particular perspective on this, and even

47:04

if those are not the same, I can

47:06

still. Accept that both of

47:09

those exists at once. Death

47:11

that it's it said.

47:13

Tremendous benefit. And. I will

47:16

say his mom's a social worker.

47:18

He did therapy from a young

47:20

age. And I see like

47:22

all of those tools that he

47:24

got. Really? Helped him.

47:27

To. Be. A better

47:29

partner. And. It's not too late if

47:31

you don't have the schools. You. Know, I

47:34

think anyone can can acquire those tools.

47:37

If they're willing to go

47:39

through that experience. But. Yeah,

47:42

it's very helpful in conflict and

47:44

also to just. Take a. Position.

47:47

Of listening to Like listening

47:49

to understand and not always

47:52

trying to. Solve. Such

47:54

as be willing to come to

47:56

the table and listen to. Another.

47:59

Point of view, And usually he's right, usually

48:02

he's right, I'm the one that has to

48:04

go. But it's a practice,

48:06

it's a daily practice for him. Like

48:08

he even, he subscribes to all these

48:10

sub stacks from completely different points of

48:12

view. I'm like, where are you following

48:14

that person? Because he wants

48:17

to gain the knowledge

48:19

and information about another person's

48:21

perspective. And I mentioned this

48:23

just to say that it doesn't

48:26

just happen. It is something

48:29

that you have to work at and practice.

48:31

Maybe you don't want to subscribe to a bunch of random sub stacks,

48:34

but you're subscribing

48:36

to podcasts, I mean, might

48:39

as well just add a few more to the mix. But

48:42

you get the chance in each

48:44

of these dating interactions to

48:47

practice listening, to

48:49

practice understanding another person's

48:51

point of view. And especially if you're

48:53

coming to meet a stranger, you don't

48:56

know any of this yet. We like

48:58

to try to go through the dating

49:00

apps and shortcut it and

49:02

say like, oh, I saw

49:05

which emojis were on their

49:07

profile and therefore I know them.

49:10

We want to shortcut it. And I know why,

49:12

I know we want to shortcut it because it

49:14

does take a lot of time and effort to

49:17

go through this swiping process. Like whoever

49:19

told you that swiping was easy, I'm

49:21

sorry. They absolutely lied.

49:24

I feel like only the swiping apps have

49:26

ever suggested that this is going to make it

49:28

easy. And now that I say that

49:30

out loud, I'm like, oh yeah, it makes sense. They would be

49:32

the ones suggesting that. I don't think anybody else has ever

49:34

like really felt that. Well,

49:37

I think apps changed

49:39

because people wanted easy.

49:41

They wanted ease of use. So

49:44

when my husband and I met online, it was a

49:46

dating site. It wasn't an app. It

49:48

was a dating site. It was a dating site. And I

49:50

think that's a good thing for us. Yeah. I remember

49:53

talking about that. There was so much more information and

49:55

the process of trying to figure out who I was

49:58

going out with was a lot. easier

50:00

than when you have one

50:03

paragraph on them, a few emojis and

50:05

a handful of pictures

50:08

and you're sitting there in the DMs all day

50:10

trying to figure

50:12

out is this somebody that I want

50:15

to invest my time in and you're

50:17

doing that with ten other people, it

50:20

is exhausting and so we wanted the ease

50:22

of use. Oh it's so easy

50:24

you can create a profile just you know pick

50:26

a couple pictures from your phone and you're on

50:28

like the barrier for entry used

50:30

to be really high for online dating.

50:33

Now it's super low, there's no gatekeepers, it's free

50:35

now you know we used to have to pay

50:37

for it. It's free people get

50:39

mad when they have to pay for a feature

50:42

and I'm like do you think this is free?

50:44

Do you think this is free? You will get

50:46

what you pay for so yeah

50:48

if you want to do it for free you

50:50

may have a less

50:52

satisfying experience. You may have to do

50:55

more of the sorting. If you want

50:57

to shortcut some of those things, pay

51:00

for the bumblebee line or you know

51:02

get OkCupid Premium or whatever app you're

51:04

on like use the

51:06

shortcuts otherwise back of

51:09

the line. You're out here swiping

51:11

and in the DMs with everybody else you know.

51:15

Okay so seeing of shortcuts in

51:17

the book you talk about this

51:19

concept of slow love you

51:22

know so kind of like the slow food

51:24

movement was this response to the fast food

51:26

movement. Like you know really taking

51:28

your time to get to know someone

51:30

during the early phases of dating. So

51:33

we on this show talk a lot

51:35

about NRE you know new relationship

51:37

energy, the super exciting, the rush, the

51:39

thrill, the chemical cocktail in your brain.

51:42

We've had a lot of listeners write into us

51:44

asking like how do I manage this?

51:46

When do I listen to those feelings? Oh

51:48

when do I need to be cautious? Like

51:51

when are those feelings dulling my ability to

51:53

actually tell what kind of person somebody is?

51:55

And so I guess I'm wondering like how

51:57

do you recommend that people do pump

51:59

the brain? and decide to go

52:01

slowly when they're feeling that rush. And

52:04

how do people do that in a way that doesn't

52:06

feel like they're arbitrarily holding themselves

52:09

back? And

52:11

I have to acknowledge, I didn't

52:13

come up with slow love, but

52:15

it is something that for over

52:17

a decade, I have talked to

52:19

my clients about. Really Dr.

52:21

Helen Fisher gets the credit for a lot

52:23

of things in our industry, but she

52:26

really popularized that. And I just learned

52:28

that. I was today years old when

52:30

I figured out that slow food movement

52:33

was a response to fast food. I

52:35

just didn't even know that. That's really

52:37

smart. I have grown here today

52:40

doing this podcast. But

52:42

first of all, I tell my clients

52:45

to space out their interactions in the

52:47

early phase. Because we can

52:49

get caught up in momentum. And we

52:51

know, like part of that NRE, as you

52:53

said. Yeah, you got it, yeah. Thank

52:56

you. Part of that

52:58

NRE is our own neurotransmitters.

53:01

It's our hormones firing. And

53:04

when you're in proximity to somebody else, they're

53:06

firing even more. And so the more time

53:08

you're spending with this person, the more you

53:10

want to be with this person, the more

53:12

you're getting those endorphins

53:15

pumped through your body. And

53:18

the more that you think, oh,

53:21

this is perfect. This is perfect. We just

53:23

gotta push it through. And I

53:25

want to see them tomorrow. And I want to see them the next day. And I want

53:27

to see them the next day. And you don't have

53:30

that space in between when you come down

53:32

off of that high. And

53:34

you're in withdrawal. And you're like, wait,

53:36

do I even want another hit of this?

53:39

Do I even like how I

53:41

feel right now? Am I thinking

53:43

about this person still? What am

53:45

I thinking about this person? When

53:47

I replay the conversations that we've

53:49

had, wait, does this person

53:52

align with my goals and values? Am

53:54

I Making this fit when it doesn't actually...

54:00

A line. I see that a lot.

54:02

Like. We. Start to compromise.

54:05

When. We're in that spiral of

54:07

that and ari. We're like a

54:09

word the actually you know what that was then per

54:12

inmate like I put that, it. I

54:14

told Dimona was really I can say

54:16

I really needed somebody that shared my

54:18

faith but you know I? Actually no,

54:20

it's fine, it's fine, it's and then

54:23

we just compromise on whatever we saw.

54:25

It was actually. Important.

54:27

To. Make it. Sit. And.

54:30

We need that space. We.

54:32

Need that Say sir. Really? Figure out

54:34

where where we're at so

54:36

we can figure out where

54:38

the. Connection. Is that? Yeah,

54:41

I mean yeah, I appreciate that you

54:44

phrase it that way, but sometimes we

54:46

can be making something said that doesn't

54:48

actually sit and I think, especially. If.

54:51

You felt frustrated for a long time. If

54:53

you felt. Lonely. For.

54:56

A long time you know the best metaphor

54:58

that was ever explained to me. And I

55:00

think Cassie. Brighter was the one that I

55:02

got this from was like the grocery store

55:04

metaphor. It's it's like if you're coming to

55:06

dating and like like going to the grocery

55:08

store hungry sometimes where. He. Was like oh

55:10

my God. I guess I'm so tired of feeling

55:12

this way and so I'm gonna buy you know

55:14

keepers and way more vegetables and I can ever

55:16

cook And like all the says I can't even

55:18

afford because I really wish fulfilled us and it's

55:20

like I'm kind of trying to make this fit

55:22

my nutritional needs when it. Doesn't actually sit and

55:24

I think. The. Same thing happens

55:27

where. Yeah. You can feel so frustrated

55:29

a feeling a particular way that than the first

55:31

person who comes along that makes you feel a

55:33

different way. It. Is like that. Okay,

55:35

whatever it my values don't matter My my

55:37

The things that I thought that I was

55:39

looking for the relationship don't matter. I'm just

55:42

gonna make this said and doesn't. Unfortunately,

55:44

I think what I see and people

55:46

as that. Kind of the

55:48

neurotransmitter effect. Last sometimes for

55:50

a while some the next six months of two

55:52

year and a half and then sometimes people and

55:54

up a year and have in realizing. Oh, actually

55:56

the smaller than a set for my values.

55:58

But now I'm and. Your and a half into

56:01

this. Yeah. And part of that

56:03

is the discovery to. Like. We

56:05

need to get rid of this idea of like a

56:07

we Gotta Know right away. Don't. Waste

56:09

my time is a one month in

56:11

and out and look at the value

56:13

you can get out of a year

56:15

and half relationship that. Didn't.

56:18

Work. Now. You know more. You.

56:20

Know more about yourself. You know more about what you're looking

56:22

for. You. Maybe got to

56:24

practice them and is communication skills and

56:26

listening and understanding and. And

56:28

building new some scars, And.

56:31

None. Of these in a B. O.

56:33

For you and that's okay. That's.

56:35

Okay but I i I feel like that's

56:38

where the same comes back up re like.

56:40

Oh. Well now I have to go and

56:42

tell everybody that I'm single again. And

56:44

I have to scrub this person for my

56:47

social media and been out. Explain it away

56:49

or you know it's it's awesome. Yeah, it

56:51

comes with. Really? A We.

56:54

Lay other baggage on top of

56:56

it. That really isn't even our

56:58

baggage. Like is more about what

57:00

are other people. And I thing

57:02

I do also here on I have to

57:05

go back and. Start all over like

57:07

I just had a client that was telling me

57:09

she ended a relationship after five and a half

57:11

months is? she wasn't. They. Weren't online

57:13

and goals. She. Was looking

57:15

for commitments. And. He

57:17

was not sure not looking for a

57:20

commitment when they met, but. Was.

57:22

Like maybe I could be convinced. Let's

57:24

go along for this ride. And

57:27

yet she was feeling really

57:29

discouraged that see had to

57:31

quote. Start. Over. And

57:34

she also felt like

57:36

she really. Didn't. Know

57:38

that she would find that again. She

57:40

was like I just and sell them

57:43

so much. Meanwhile. Yeah

57:45

like I've been working with this person for a

57:47

little while and it was like when mean you

57:49

instantly hence along as like. Last.

57:51

Year. I swear we had the

57:54

same conversation. About somebody else

57:56

and you are telling me you haven't felt

57:58

like. At and so long. So

58:00

our memories are really

58:03

short to. And.

58:05

When I said to her is well

58:07

what you know now is that it's

58:09

possible If you had this feeling now

58:12

you know that it's possible. There's.

58:14

No reason to just hold on to this because

58:16

it's like a burden hand if it's not right,

58:19

But. You. Know if you felt

58:21

those feelings that. Are you

58:23

know I think is egg I worry more of your

58:25

like what I've never met. Anybody that I've even been

58:27

attracted to than I'm kind of like this when I get

58:29

in. and really, temple? The. Taxes That

58:31

that brought up something for me.

58:34

So thinking about the kind of

58:36

bad habits are bad beliefs that

58:38

the romantic comedies give us. And.

58:41

One of them is that idea of the one

58:43

who got away. Which. Is tied

58:45

into the whole soulmate thing. and it's

58:47

that fear that oh, if if this

58:49

didn't work out, if I somehow failed

58:51

this relationship or didn't make it succeed,

58:54

the my only hope is to go

58:56

back and get that one or I

58:58

end up sad forever. Whereas.

59:01

The reality like you were talking

59:03

about is being in relationships. Is.

59:05

A skill and dating is a skill and the

59:07

more you're learning about yourself and the more you're

59:10

learning how to do that. In

59:12

a healthy way and communicate more genuinely

59:14

and meet people where they are. It

59:16

actually means you're gonna have more opportunities

59:18

to do it better the next time.

59:21

But I think that miss that. Are

59:23

see if you miss the one that was the right

59:25

one because he didn't realize it. That was it. Ah

59:28

yes, that is definitely under the sun.

59:30

The math. And. Yeah

59:32

and so much as it is timing

59:34

to. Like I was singing I

59:37

Might as an I Don't Think lead

59:39

don't believe in the one neither of

59:41

us do. We were in a place

59:43

when we met where we were on

59:45

the same. Trajectory. We're.

59:47

The same goals we had similar

59:50

values similar and us allies we

59:52

works on are clear communication. And

59:55

over time. We. Build trust

59:57

And that's why I put. Them.

1:00:00

The forest pillar is the

1:00:02

trust because. That. One really

1:00:04

does take time to build it's the

1:00:06

one that takes longer since the one

1:00:08

that is the hardest to repair if

1:00:10

it's broken. That's. What we needed

1:00:13

at that time. But. I

1:00:15

feel like. I. Feel that

1:00:17

magic your time. Out earlier that occur when you

1:00:19

were. Saying. Like. That.

1:00:22

That feeling of like how did we find

1:00:24

each other I was saying that him like.

1:00:26

The. Other day. And. I

1:00:28

can't believe we found each other! But.

1:00:31

That's because so many things had

1:00:33

to align. For. This moment

1:00:35

to happen, there might be there's

1:00:37

probably another one out there. I

1:00:39

really think I got. I got

1:00:41

him a lock them down of

1:00:43

of it before anybody of them

1:00:45

seen as a catch. The

1:00:48

Zephyr. I gotta least a good one if

1:00:50

you know. It maybe it's not like

1:00:52

though one right? right? Any I think

1:00:54

the other thing that that does when

1:00:56

you're in relationship. Is It

1:00:59

also empowers you in the

1:01:01

current relationship. Whether you've

1:01:04

been together as long as you all

1:01:06

have really been married for two. I'm.

1:01:08

Anne Marie, twenty five and with my husband many years. I

1:01:11

know that no matter what happens, I'm.

1:01:14

Gonna be okay. I. Have

1:01:16

made a commitment. I intend to be in this

1:01:18

relationship for the rest of my life. But.

1:01:21

I also know sometimes unexpected

1:01:23

things happen. And.

1:01:25

You have to be okay. This is where

1:01:27

we see. When. People have the soul

1:01:30

mate math and they're like this is my

1:01:32

person and then something happens there like I

1:01:34

can't go on. The. Can't go with

1:01:36

my life and they think that sad as the end.

1:01:39

Because. The relationship has ended for

1:01:41

whatever reason, And. That.

1:01:44

To me. Also. Then

1:01:46

just to strips. Your your joy and

1:01:48

strips your power. And. Does

1:01:50

it bring you to the

1:01:52

table in a relationship whole

1:01:54

misbehave soon as you complete

1:01:56

me? Ah no no. You.

1:01:59

Come to the table. a whole human

1:02:02

with your own beliefs and

1:02:04

with your own stuff going

1:02:06

on, you are fully formed

1:02:08

and I too am a whole human and

1:02:11

together we amplify one another

1:02:13

but nobody's missing, anybody's

1:02:17

missing peace, you know? I love that. That's

1:02:20

so important to reiterate that to people

1:02:22

that yeah, that even in those like

1:02:24

really profound this is the person I

1:02:27

love more than anyone else in the

1:02:29

world, also I would be

1:02:31

okay and still a full human without them. Sure,

1:02:33

I'd be super bummed if that were to

1:02:35

happen but I'm a whole person

1:02:37

and they're a whole person and that I think is just

1:02:39

like when you say that to

1:02:41

people, it sounds like

1:02:43

you're speaking nonsense sometimes. They're

1:02:46

like, what do you, how can you love them

1:02:48

then or what do you mean by that? Like

1:02:50

it's like doesn't compute because that's so ingrained in

1:02:52

us. Yeah and there's

1:02:55

just a lot of codependence

1:02:57

in our society too

1:02:59

and I want to have

1:03:01

a better word for

1:03:03

a healthier way of interacting

1:03:05

where you amplify

1:03:08

one another, you buoy

1:03:10

one another, you support one another but

1:03:12

you're not doing everything for the

1:03:14

other person, you're not lost

1:03:17

without the other person. We

1:03:20

get a lot of people who ask us things like how

1:03:23

do you feel about doing something like listing

1:03:25

your STI status on a dating profile?

1:03:28

Do you have any takes on that? I

1:03:30

have a lot of takes. There's

1:03:34

certainly a stigma around STIs

1:03:36

that I feel like again,

1:03:38

a lot of people don't

1:03:40

even really understand. They

1:03:42

look at the label and they're like, oh I

1:03:44

can't date this person. I just had someone write

1:03:46

in about STI status on dates and mates. They

1:03:49

were like, I really liked this person. They revealed

1:03:51

to me on like the first or second date

1:03:54

that they are

1:03:56

HSV positive that they

1:03:58

have herpes and they... But

1:04:00

they were like, so I guess I can't

1:04:02

date them. And I was like, what? Like

1:04:05

first of all, get

1:04:08

your facts about even what

1:04:11

that means. Understand

1:04:14

what the risks are

1:04:16

for transmission because you're thinking it's like this

1:04:19

big thing and even like I've worked a

1:04:21

little bit with Gilead HIV

1:04:23

division and the

1:04:26

amount of advancements that

1:04:28

have been made in

1:04:31

treatment and prevention in

1:04:33

the last just like the last decade

1:04:36

is unbelievable.

1:04:39

And what you should everyone

1:04:42

and I'm sure your listeners are very

1:04:44

smart. So I'm sure everyone

1:04:46

here like already knows their SCI

1:04:49

status. I'm sure everybody's on prep.

1:04:52

And that's that and as we should be because

1:04:54

we have all of these tools now available

1:04:57

to help

1:05:00

us but there's

1:05:02

a whole education process that I think

1:05:05

people need to go through. Not

1:05:08

people who have an

1:05:11

STI diagnosis but

1:05:13

people who are

1:05:15

dating someone that

1:05:18

may reveal that we

1:05:20

can't keep just pushing it away. And

1:05:23

I don't have the stats in front of me. Maybe you know

1:05:25

but like isn't it like 40%

1:05:27

of people? It's a huge

1:05:29

number. It's a huge number that either

1:05:31

have HSV1 or HSV2 but it's a huge percentage. We

1:05:37

all have HSV1. And

1:05:40

most transmission happens because someone hasn't gotten

1:05:42

tested or hasn't asked to be tested and

1:05:44

they don't even know, right? Yeah and I

1:05:46

would bet you every single

1:05:48

STI test you've ever had in your

1:05:50

entire life did not test for HSV1

1:05:52

or 2 unless you specifically asked them

1:05:55

for that one. You

1:05:57

know I heard something very interesting about

1:05:59

the... and bachelor this week.

1:06:02

He said that going on the show

1:06:04

because having worked in reality TV forever,

1:06:08

there's this whole process people have to go

1:06:10

through a psych evaluation and they have to

1:06:12

go through like a health health of training

1:06:14

especially for dating shows you have to do

1:06:16

your SCI test and he said that was

1:06:18

the first SCI test he had ever had.

1:06:21

Oh no. Wow. He

1:06:24

didn't reveal what the results were but

1:06:27

it reminded me

1:06:29

of stats that I've read, I know

1:06:32

you all like the data about

1:06:35

how STIs are really growing

1:06:37

among 50 plus

1:06:40

individuals because a lot

1:06:42

of folks had the stigma around getting

1:06:44

tested, have never been tested, thought they

1:06:46

didn't have to get tested and

1:06:49

now because of dating apps, we

1:06:51

have so much more opportunity for people 50

1:06:53

plus to date and thank you Golden Bachelor

1:06:56

for bringing it into the mainstream too and

1:07:00

there's so many people out there that don't

1:07:02

even know their status but would see it

1:07:04

on a dating profile and be like oh

1:07:06

no, well I just can't. Exactly. Yeah.

1:07:09

It's like you got to know your

1:07:11

own status first before you start throwing

1:07:14

daggers here. Right. Okay.

1:07:16

So the simple answer to the

1:07:18

question is no, I wouldn't

1:07:20

put it on your profile because

1:07:24

people don't really understand what that means.

1:07:27

So when you are

1:07:29

putting it on your profile, you

1:07:32

have no chance to contextualize

1:07:34

it or to educate people

1:07:36

and a lot of people have misconceptions

1:07:38

about what an

1:07:41

STI status even really

1:07:43

means and you

1:07:45

know how to treat

1:07:48

or how to prevent an STI and

1:07:51

would just push it away without even

1:07:53

doing the research. Now

1:07:55

It's certainly something you should bring up

1:07:58

in conversation, but we are in some.

1:08:00

A Rapid Dating Society. We're

1:08:02

talking about slow Dating slow.

1:08:04

Love the apps. It's all.

1:08:06

Speed is all speed in

1:08:09

ease of use and people

1:08:11

will spend less than three

1:08:13

seconds. Figuring. Out if they

1:08:15

want to spend more time with your profile. They

1:08:18

want to sleep last and anything

1:08:20

that gives them a reason to

1:08:22

immediately swipe blast I think. Does.

1:08:24

Not belong and you're dating profile right away.

1:08:27

It's so interesting cause there's a lot of other

1:08:29

approaches out there. The go hard the other direction

1:08:31

is like you want all the people that have

1:08:33

x y z deal breaker to just swipe left

1:08:36

so you don't even have to waste your time

1:08:38

with them. For that is, etc such

1:08:40

as if I agree, I agree with what you're

1:08:42

saying that when it comes specifically to Sci status,

1:08:44

we could get in the weeds about any other

1:08:46

thing you feel like you need to disclose on

1:08:48

a dating profile. But like I do

1:08:50

agree that because there is so

1:08:52

much Sigma, so much knee jerk

1:08:54

judgment that. I. Mean Honestly, the

1:08:56

first time that I dated someone who

1:08:58

is a just. Be positive. Mean.

1:09:01

That was an unassuming profile. We had a

1:09:03

conversation and. I think at that time in my

1:09:05

life as as many years ago when I also wasn't

1:09:07

educated about all this stuff and we couldn't have. Had

1:09:09

a conversation. I may have been one of those

1:09:11

people who is just like no, not interested. Ray.

1:09:14

And so yes I agree to as you need to

1:09:16

have contacts both about. You. Know this is

1:09:18

how long that this is that. my status. This is

1:09:21

how I managed it. This is how it manifests for

1:09:23

me. This is how I have safer sex you know?

1:09:25

And these are the resources. That I really like

1:09:27

if you don't know very much about it

1:09:30

Or so. I think I agree on this

1:09:32

point though, that yeah, that. Giving yourself

1:09:34

as many opportunities to be able to

1:09:36

contextualize that because unfortunately, The. Say

1:09:38

to Sex education. For most people

1:09:40

in this country, that is pretty

1:09:42

abominable. Plus. A stigma that he I

1:09:45

think any officer you could have to actually have

1:09:47

a real time more human conversation about it instead

1:09:49

of a snap judgment. I think it's a good

1:09:51

thing. Yeah. And I

1:09:53

I definitely hear your points. A

1:09:55

sub out there is a i'm

1:09:57

with the philosophy that is somebody.

1:10:00

It is not an alignment with

1:10:02

you and they they know it

1:10:04

from your profile then. Great.

1:10:06

Is a save yourself. Save this

1:10:08

a lot of time and hard. A. Fire. At

1:10:10

the same time I think there are certain things

1:10:12

where. If. You put them on

1:10:14

your profile I would say. Also.

1:10:17

Having kids is another thing. Like

1:10:20

I. Will tell my and look I'm I'm home.

1:10:23

I. I I love kids! But.

1:10:26

I. Don't think your kids really should be

1:10:28

entertaining profile. Even. If

1:10:30

your entire life revolves around them right

1:10:32

now. That's. Very nice know and

1:10:34

stating your kids. Out

1:10:36

there dating you and they need to see

1:10:38

you as and it as an attractive sexual

1:10:41

being. Not. As. As.

1:10:43

A mom or dad at that so not trying

1:10:45

to make yourself look more dad. leave with other

1:10:47

people's kids. Don't do it you know if I

1:10:50

phone else of course be on as you can

1:10:52

check I have kids the time as it is

1:10:54

still a more have kids want more have kids

1:10:56

I just have kids nanny business. But

1:10:59

it's just no pictures and like

1:11:01

let's not tell stories about it,

1:11:03

it's not it's and and in

1:11:05

the beginning of dating. They're

1:11:07

not dating. You for your kit. Part.

1:11:10

of that part of the story but. He

1:11:13

there is a story that's better told

1:11:15

and not not slept on. I

1:11:18

think with this idea of what to

1:11:20

have in the profile the kids thing

1:11:22

is interesting because you're kind of saying

1:11:25

don't lead with that and have that

1:11:27

be front and center but if there's

1:11:29

that option to check. I. Have

1:11:31

kids checkered or maybe have a

1:11:33

sentence somewhere because I do think

1:11:36

that's. Worthwhile for people to know

1:11:38

and might save you some time. Of those

1:11:40

people who are like absolutely not than it

1:11:42

is not wasting either of your time. And

1:11:45

I'm thinking about this because with non

1:11:47

monogamy. That's. A big one And as

1:11:49

on that we've. Since. The beginning

1:11:51

of this show have really been

1:11:53

pro. Put. It in your profile.

1:11:56

Because. It's. Such

1:11:58

a big dividing line. But if

1:12:00

someone is not aware

1:12:02

of it, it feels like you've misled them.

1:12:05

And if it's not what they're looking for, neither of

1:12:08

you is going to be happy and you've just wasted

1:12:10

everybody's time. And I think

1:12:12

it's less common now, especially as more

1:12:14

dating apps are putting that option in

1:12:16

kind of like kids, where you can

1:12:18

say, I'm monogamous or I'm non-monogamous. But

1:12:20

before that, there were a lot of people who would

1:12:23

kind of, you know, out of shame,

1:12:25

like we've talked about a lot, leave

1:12:27

that off and think, oh, maybe a couple of

1:12:29

dates in then I'll talk about it so I

1:12:31

can give it context. But

1:12:33

I don't think the same principles apply

1:12:35

there as they might with STIs. That's

1:12:39

interesting. Yeah, I would say

1:12:41

it's that's also true in the monogamy

1:12:43

community. Like, no, you have to say

1:12:46

you have kids. That's right.

1:12:48

But you don't have to make your profile about

1:12:50

that. And I feel like sometimes we get caught

1:12:53

up in this feeling like we have

1:12:55

to explain it and then we're

1:12:58

explaining it before it's even a

1:13:00

problem. Right. So whether it's

1:13:02

a kid or, you know, I've had people write

1:13:05

in debates and make like, I have a

1:13:07

disability, I have, you

1:13:10

know, I have debt. Like

1:13:12

all of these things. I have depression. I

1:13:15

have depression. Like, girl,

1:13:17

like we've all got

1:13:19

something. We've all got something behind

1:13:21

that, behind the curtain. And

1:13:24

you just, again, think

1:13:26

about it from the perspective of the person that

1:13:28

you're trying to attract and how much information do they

1:13:30

need to know at that time.

1:13:33

And then you can figure out

1:13:36

when to reveal that information based

1:13:38

on when you begin to trust that person

1:13:41

with that information too. Because not everybody

1:13:43

is entitled to all your life story. That's

1:13:46

a great way to look at it too, is that they haven't earned

1:13:48

that yet with certain things. Right.

1:13:51

No, I had a client

1:13:53

who had, she'd had a first date and the

1:13:56

guy said, well, I See. That

1:14:00

you're divorced. What? What?

1:14:02

What Happened? And. She

1:14:04

was like, well, My. Husband

1:14:07

she is on me as I have

1:14:09

this make kinda special needs A has

1:14:11

his I was I was a full

1:14:13

time caregiver were like. Oh.

1:14:17

Did. he erna information like why

1:14:19

did you get the worst.

1:14:21

On the first day. At. That

1:14:24

is Not. That's not his

1:14:26

business. He's trying to short cut and be like

1:14:28

let me see this lady is. Crazy loses

1:14:30

the ah right. I make

1:14:33

sense. That makes sense that.

1:14:35

Doesn't just as he asked the question doesn't

1:14:37

mean that he's entitled see the answer so

1:14:39

you can always turn it around. Why would

1:14:41

a talk about my ex when I'm here

1:14:43

with you? The Muslim handsome man like in.

1:14:46

Lots of like lemme go there. Ah

1:14:48

oh yeah, I've got I got lined. Up

1:14:51

for a. The. Dimona. It has been

1:14:53

a pleasure as always having you on the

1:14:55

show think you so much for sharing your

1:14:58

wisdom and I'm really excited for everybody to

1:15:00

go check out your book and to get

1:15:02

more of your insight. So where can people

1:15:04

find you and where can they get the

1:15:07

books? all that stuff. Yeah. Even

1:15:09

gets a book wherever you get your

1:15:11

books or I'll check it out at

1:15:13

asked the Fairy Tale book.com and says

1:15:15

the letter ass and then of course

1:15:17

I'm on the social the at them

1:15:19

on Hossein and I'm still doing. The.

1:15:21

Dates and Mates podcast so they should

1:15:23

let us set of the so that

1:15:25

you mention and non check out what

1:15:27

we do. Or and a to mates

1:15:29

wherever they're listening them all Tamarind, an. Awesome

1:15:32

movie is so much again. Thank.

1:15:34

You greatest uber. And

1:15:36

for our listeners at home we have a question

1:15:38

of the week for you which will be on

1:15:40

her instagram stories which is. Do. You

1:15:42

have any unhealthy patterns been dating

1:15:45

and relationships or unhealthy some scars

1:15:47

he said say we would love

1:15:49

to hear from you and he's

1:15:51

sincere. Those with us on our

1:15:54

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1:15:56

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1:16:31

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