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Welcome to the Multiamory podcast.

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I'm Jace. I'm Emily. And

0:06

I'm Dedeker. We believe in looking

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We'll be doing this for the next few months, releasing

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from all of you about what you think

1:00

about this new format. Before

1:03

we get started, we want to let you

1:05

know that we've spent a lot of time

1:07

studying relationship communication, but we are not mind

1:09

readers and we don't have the answers to

1:11

everything in the universe. Our advice

1:14

is based solely on the limited information we

1:16

have from these questions as well, so we

1:18

may have to do some guessing. So

1:20

please take all of it with a grain of salt and

1:23

find what there is for you to learn from it. Every

1:25

situation is unique, so we encourage you

1:27

to use your own judgment and seek

1:29

professional help if needed. Ultimately,

1:32

you are the only true expert on your

1:34

own life and feelings, and your decisions are

1:36

your own. The question has been

1:38

edited for time and clarity. And

1:40

here's this week's question. What does

1:42

the phrase, foreplay starts at breakfast,

1:44

mean to you? And what examples

1:46

would you give of this? Fore

1:48

context. Can we

1:51

just acknowledge, wow, out the gate, really

1:53

hitting us with the question. Oh

1:55

no, I'm sucked right into this

1:58

breakfast foreplay. I'm

2:00

so intrigued. It's a very good cold open

2:02

for this novel. For

2:04

context, my partner and I are

2:06

both currently polysaturated at one after

2:09

going through some tough life stuff.

2:11

For the last six months, it's

2:13

been feeling like there's been a

2:15

lack of non-sexual interactions between myself

2:17

and my partner. I feel as

2:19

though I've tried to keep up

2:21

with doing these things myself because

2:23

I genuinely enjoy it. Things like

2:25

random, gentle touching, offering to make

2:27

breakfast, just generally being considerate in

2:29

ways that's more than just being

2:31

friends. But my partner doesn't seem to

2:33

be innately the same way. And

2:36

although he did these things early on,

2:38

it quickly dwindled. When he attempts to

2:40

initiate sex, it's often after generally having

2:43

very limited interaction with each other at

2:45

that day. His initiation typically

2:47

includes things like greeting me with

2:50

objectifying comments, touching only areas like

2:52

my butt or chest, showing me

2:54

he's hard by pressing himself on

2:56

me and making other verbal insinuations.

2:59

Coming from virtually no interaction

3:01

or seemingly platonic interaction

3:04

and straight into a very sexual interaction

3:06

like that almost turns me off even

3:08

more. And especially coupled with

3:10

the way that it takes a while

3:12

for him to actually back off when

3:15

I say no. But I've noticed that

3:17

the times where there is more lovey

3:19

interaction sprinkled through the day, tiny acts

3:21

of service, non-sexual but nice touching, that

3:24

I feel much more inclined to respond well

3:26

to his initiations. I've had conversations with him

3:28

about this but there doesn't seem to be

3:30

much change or consistent change. I

3:33

truly feel like the phrase, foreplay starts

3:35

at breakfast, really hits home for me

3:37

as one aspect of my issues with his

3:39

initiation style. But I'm having a lot

3:41

of trouble actually coming up with concrete examples of what

3:43

this can look like. I'm hoping that

3:45

being able to better define it can help

3:47

me better identify my own needs and also

3:50

better communicate those needs to him. And

3:52

that is sent in from, two eggs with a

3:54

side of foreplay please. But how do you want your

3:56

eggs? Really good sign off. They

3:59

started strong. They ended strong.

4:01

I don't because I've never had an egg in my

4:03

life. Oh, right. Emily's never had an egg.

4:06

You've had plenty of foreplay though, I hope.

4:08

Yeah. So I just wanted

4:10

to ask that question right off the gate.

4:12

Have the two of you ever foreplayed at

4:14

breakfast or like right when you got up?

4:16

Because this morning I got up and my

4:19

partner was like, I was

4:21

thinking about that thing that happened last night

4:23

and that was really hot. And like that

4:25

felt like foreplay at breakfast. That was right

4:27

out the gate. Was there at least like

4:30

a tofu scramble present? I

4:32

was still in bed so now not at that

4:34

moment in time. Yeah, the response would

4:36

be like, that's nice, honey. No, could you go make

4:38

my tofu scramble? I think that's the...

4:40

Yummy. Now I'm hungry.

4:43

Yeah, but sure, breakfast foreplay. There's

4:47

definitely a lot here. I think

4:49

that that phrase foreplay begins at

4:51

breakfast. The context where I've heard

4:53

it before is kind of in what they're

4:55

talking about here where it's like you don't

4:57

just get to do foreplay right before

4:59

you want to have sex. You need to

5:02

be nurturing this sense of connection and flirtiness

5:05

and showing appreciation for your partner basically

5:07

all the time, essentially keeping a little

5:10

bit more of that going on so

5:12

that it isn't this sort of jarring

5:14

thing when suddenly it switches into sex

5:16

mode. That's generally the context

5:19

where I've heard that expression before. And

5:21

I think the question asker here, it

5:23

fits perfectly for what's going on here.

5:26

I read through this question a couple of times.

5:29

I was almost convinced that myself from a past

5:31

relationship wrote this question because

5:34

it mirrored my experience in a

5:36

particular relationship that I'm thinking of

5:38

so exactly. Maybe

5:40

it was your past self. I don't know. Did

5:43

you time travel? That's

5:45

cool. Two eggs with a side of foreplay

5:47

and time travel please. I've never heard this

5:49

phrase about foreplay starting at breakfast. I have

5:51

an either. Have you, Jess? Have you? Yeah,

5:53

no, I've totally heard that before. Unless

5:56

I'm able to talk to my younger self now and teach

5:58

them that phrase and then they went back and forth. time

6:00

and then wrote this question in and

6:02

I'm sure that we've probably stumbled into some

6:04

paradoxes at some point. Indeed. Yeah, pretty

6:06

sure we've created a time paradox and

6:08

destroyed the quantum state of the universe.

6:10

Destroyed the universe. Get worthy everyone. Yeah,

6:13

prepare for that. All right,

6:15

there's definitely a lot to get into

6:17

here. We're gonna take a quick moment

6:19

to just say, hey, do you have

6:21

a question that you would like to

6:24

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6:26

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to check out some ways you can

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support the show. And

6:55

we're back. Now, sometimes I

6:57

kind of think that love languages

6:59

maybe aren't really a thing. Although

7:01

I think that they can be

7:04

helpful for sure. And this sounds

7:06

a little bit like maybe mismatch

7:08

love languages. Or one

7:10

person's love language is super, super

7:13

high on touch. And

7:15

the other person's maybe a bit

7:17

higher on things like acts of

7:19

service or quality time, something along

7:21

those lines. And part of being

7:23

a really good partner is being

7:25

able to acknowledge the differences

7:28

there and figure out how

7:30

to allow and give maybe

7:32

an act of service even if

7:34

you are a touch person because you know that

7:36

that is important to your partner. So

7:38

I would say absolutely having

7:40

conversations like they already are

7:43

about this sort of thing.

7:45

But I would be

7:47

fine being like, hey, I don't really

7:49

feel comfortable having sex with you until

7:51

we can figure out a way to

7:54

have more of a meeting of a

7:56

mind or come to the middle in

7:58

this a bit more. Or perhaps you

8:00

can do some nice things for me in the

8:02

middle of the day, or we can

8:05

have an interaction that doesn't involve sex

8:07

in any way, or touch in any

8:09

way, or just is kind of sweet

8:12

and romantic, or we

8:15

can go out to dinner, or you can

8:17

make me a bagel, any of those things.

8:19

So specific. That doesn't involve

8:22

pressing yourself up against me. Yes.

8:26

So I want to bring in the gas break

8:28

metaphor, which is not original to me.

8:30

I think this floats around

8:33

when talking about these kind of,

8:35

you know, sometimes desire mismatch or

8:37

initiation mismatch quite frequently. And I

8:39

think what is helpful here is that

8:42

this question asker knows what pushes

8:44

on their gas pedal. Like

8:46

they have that information. Sometimes people come to these

8:48

situations where they're like, I don't even really know what

8:51

gets me in the mood, but I know it's not

8:53

that. You know, I know it's not the thing that

8:55

you do. The things that you're doing are slamming on

8:57

my brakes and making it harder for me to get

9:00

in the mood for sex. So first I just want to

9:02

point out that it's really good that this person already has

9:04

that information. And it sounds like maybe their

9:07

partner has that information both about them

9:09

and about himself as well. Right? Gosh,

9:12

there's so many different pieces to jump into here. But

9:14

what I want to say is that I think, Jase,

9:17

you were the one who taught me, or you were

9:19

talking to me about this years ago, about how

9:21

when we go through the arousal

9:24

process, like the physiological process

9:26

of getting aroused, something that

9:28

happens in our brain is

9:31

that our sensitivity to

9:33

disgust gets turned down. Because

9:36

if you think about it, sometimes sex can

9:38

be kind of disgusting. Like really? Parts

9:41

of it? Yes. Parts of

9:43

it can be a little bit gross from a certain perspective. And

9:46

it's like our brain kind of has to

9:48

turn down our sensitivity to certain smells and

9:50

sights and sensations and can sometimes catalyze them

9:52

into, ooh, that's actually exciting. I like that.

9:55

And then sometimes after you have an orgasm

9:57

or after you're not aroused anymore, it's less

9:59

appealing. to think about doing that

10:01

same thing. And when

10:03

I was in the relationship where

10:06

this dynamic was happening, it

10:08

was a light bulb moment for me to realize that

10:11

when my partner is already in

10:13

this arousal state, his judgment

10:15

about what's appropriate or not,

10:17

about what is disgusting or

10:20

not is altered. And

10:22

so he is approaching me in a particular

10:24

state where if I was also in that

10:26

aroused state, maybe I'd be able to meet

10:28

that initiation with that same kind of excitement

10:30

but because I'm not, it's turning me off

10:33

and it's making me feel bad and it's

10:35

making me feel disgusting, right? So just

10:37

tell them that. Well yes, right?

10:40

So that can be part of it, right?

10:42

It's just realizing that literally your brain chemicals

10:44

are in different places and you're

10:46

experiencing things with a different

10:49

lens on it. In episode 457

10:51

and you should go check that out, it's

10:53

called Creating Lasting Sexual Connections with Emily Nagoski

10:55

but her talking about how if

10:57

you're constantly having to push through not feeling

11:00

good when it comes to sex, like that's

11:02

not good for you. So it shouldn't be

11:04

consistently that like you're feeling objectified in a

11:06

bad way and feeling kind

11:08

of icky in a bad way all the time. But if

11:11

you feel like you can collaborate with your partner with like,

11:13

hey I'm not where you're at yet from

11:15

an arousal level but like let's get me there and

11:18

then we can have fun, that I think that's really

11:20

important. Yeah, I want to come

11:22

back to something from this. We're

11:24

saying that this partner did

11:27

more of these just kind of nice

11:29

things throughout the day earlier on in

11:32

the relationship but in the last six

11:34

months or so has stopped doing them.

11:37

So you know they mentioned things like just

11:39

the random gentle touching or offering to make

11:41

breakfast or just quote generally

11:43

being considerate in ways that's more

11:46

than just being friends. I

11:48

do think that's a piece worth looking

11:50

at there too and boy

11:52

this kind of mismatches is really challenging

11:54

because it seems like on the one

11:56

hand maybe there's something in

11:59

his life. that's gotten

12:01

busier or more distracting or something. And so

12:04

he's felt like he's just kind of had

12:06

less, less of that on

12:08

his mind of like, oh, I should do

12:10

these sweet things. Or maybe in his mind,

12:12

he feels like you're kind of out of

12:14

that courting phase. And so that's a thing

12:16

you don't do anymore. I've definitely run into

12:19

that in relationships before being on the receiving

12:21

end of that sometimes, where a partner just

12:23

kind of stops, I don't know, I guess, like

12:26

doing things to kind of lead up to being

12:28

in the mood for sex, because they're sort of

12:30

like, well, yeah, I did that early on, but

12:32

I don't know, I don't really want to keep

12:34

doing that. And that could

12:36

potentially be a very serious problem or

12:38

something that you can talk about and solve,

12:40

and that's going to depend a little bit

12:43

on how that communication goes. But I do

12:45

think that's worth just sort of acknowledging there.

12:47

I also get the sense from this, that

12:49

this relationship hasn't been going on that long

12:51

yet. I don't know that for

12:54

sure. I'm just kind of guessing that from some

12:56

of the context here, but it also seems like

12:58

this could have coincided with exiting

13:01

some of that NRE in this

13:03

relationship, which both might

13:05

be leading to you in general, feeling

13:07

less kind of aroused and excited by

13:10

this relationship together with there,

13:12

maybe feeling less of this

13:14

kind of drive or enthusiasm to do lots

13:16

of these little things for you throughout the

13:18

day. I don't think any of those

13:20

are excuses for behavior that's

13:23

not considerate for a partner, but they

13:25

could be reasons going on and things

13:27

to explore and talk about. Again,

13:29

I'm guessing a little bit here at this point,

13:32

but something to think about here,

13:34

I love what Daedekar was saying about

13:36

just like, you're in different mental states.

13:39

And it sounds like he's

13:41

able to have some time before

13:44

he's trying to initiate sex where he's

13:46

clearly been thinking about it, or he's

13:48

been fantasizing about it, thinking about sex,

13:50

being excited about it. And so he's

13:53

got his arousal already going on. Maybe

13:55

he's also someone who gets aroused more

13:57

quickly than you, that's possible, but I...

13:59

I would bet he's had some time where

14:01

he's thinking about these things and wanting to

14:04

have that kind of experience, whereas for you,

14:06

it kind of catches you by surprise and

14:08

there's no lead up. And so, yeah, if

14:10

I'm focused on working and someone comes up

14:12

and gently kisses my neck,

14:15

my reaction isn't, ooh, yeah. It's

14:17

like, oh, what the fuck? That tickle, get away

14:20

from me. I'm trying to focus on something else.

14:22

Okay. Well, all right. I

14:24

want to validate. Yes, your focus definitely will

14:26

be taken in by work. Remember

14:29

that aggressive? I mean, sure. This is the

14:31

inner voice that will sometimes happen is kind

14:33

of this like, ah. Oh, really? I don't

14:35

think you ever do that to me, by

14:37

the way. I feel like you're more likely

14:39

to take a soft approach when you see

14:41

I'm focused on something. Yeah, that's true. That's

14:43

true. It's like when someone tries

14:45

to do that, like, oh, I'm going to like

14:47

sneak up and surprise you with a little thing.

14:49

Like sometimes that can be jarring. My point is

14:51

just that it's jarring if you're not in the

14:53

mindset to receive it. I'm being,

14:56

I'm exaggerating a little bit here in terms

14:58

of my reaction, but, but

15:01

yeah, that it can be jarring. And I think one

15:04

thing to consider is, is it

15:06

possible to open up

15:08

that communication about him

15:11

fantasizing a little bit earlier on in the day

15:13

before he's all the way at that point and

15:15

kind of bring you into that, like for you

15:17

to be texting about it or flirting a little

15:20

bit earlier in the day is one thing to

15:22

consider there coupled with that thing of like, you

15:24

can't just walk in and do that. Like just

15:26

kind of being really clear on it. It's like

15:28

that this just doesn't work. We're going

15:30

to have to find another way or this just isn't

15:32

going to work. I do think there has to be

15:35

a certain amount of like being

15:37

clear, like the editor was saying, like being clear, be

15:40

gentle if you want to, but like be clear. Don't

15:42

be gentle and also wishy washy, which is where a

15:44

lot of us tend to go when we're trying to

15:46

be polite and nice. I

15:48

like that you brought up the fact that maybe

15:51

the two of them have in

15:53

their own various ways maybe not

15:55

necessarily taken the relationship for granted,

15:57

but just gone out of them.

16:00

that idea that you

16:02

have to necessarily like do specific things

16:04

for your partner because the

16:06

NRE has faded or it's just

16:08

been long enough that you think, oh,

16:10

I don't have to do all of

16:13

those things that I once had to do for a

16:15

partner. And I

16:17

mean, as somebody who has absolutely been on

16:19

the receiving and the giving end of feeling

16:22

as though I don't have to work as

16:24

hard anymore, that's a really difficult and kind

16:26

of shitty place to be in on

16:28

both ends. And so I definitely

16:31

encourage you to try to just go

16:33

the extra mile, even the extra half

16:35

mile and that may just mean,

16:38

yeah, we're going to set aside some time

16:40

to talk every day or to

16:42

connect in a way that is

16:44

other than physical so that we

16:46

can continue to kind of go

16:48

there with one another, do

16:51

a nice thing for one another, maybe give

16:53

each other a foot rub or something while

16:55

you are talking about your day. Just

16:58

kind of platonic or sweet touch that

17:00

doesn't necessarily involve and now I am

17:02

going to jump your bones. I

17:05

think a big part of this is

17:07

that your partner needs to get the

17:09

importance of this and assuming

17:11

that he is willing to, which maybe

17:13

he's not, in which case, it's probably

17:15

not a good relationship to stay in. It was

17:18

fun while it lasted, but I think it may

17:20

have run its course. I know that sounds harsh,

17:22

but I just want to be real. If your

17:24

partner is not willing to really seriously consider this

17:26

and make some changes, again, it doesn't have to

17:29

mean they are a terrible, horrible villain, but it's

17:31

not a good relationship either. But

17:33

on the other side is maybe

17:35

he needs to realize that this is actually

17:37

pretty serious and I think

17:40

sometimes it's easy to not realize

17:42

that because that's not how sexual

17:44

interaction goes in porn. Or even

17:46

in a lot of movies that

17:48

are not specifically porn, it's kind

17:50

of like all focuses on the

17:52

NRE where everything is spontaneous, everything

17:54

just happens, everything is like you

17:57

are so hot you walk in the room, say the one

17:59

thing and then all over you because you're into

18:01

each other. That's kind of the

18:03

mythos that's built up around this. And

18:05

sometimes it takes a little bit of

18:08

a slap in the face, metaphorically speaking.

18:10

I don't condone violence in your relationships.

18:12

Like a metaphorical slap in the face

18:14

to kind of be like, no, actually,

18:16

this is serious and this

18:18

is a problem. And so depending on how

18:20

that communication's gone so far, that

18:23

also might be something to look at. Well,

18:25

I want to catalyze your comment and leave

18:27

it on a more positive note that because

18:30

this is so important and

18:33

so serious, it means that there's

18:35

a really great opportunity in here

18:37

to steer the course of

18:40

your sexual connection in a fantastic direction.

18:42

Just thinking about the future of your

18:45

relationship, that there's great opportunities here to

18:47

sit down and really get curious about

18:49

each other, really get curious about if

18:52

you want to use the gas pedal

18:54

and brake pedal metaphor, really get

18:56

curious about what are the things that makes him

18:58

want to reach out to you sexually? What are

19:00

the things that make you want to reach out

19:02

to him sexually? Is it about

19:04

being close? Is it about just being horny and wanting an

19:07

orgasm? Is it about wanting to be seen as

19:09

sexy and wanting affection? This

19:11

could be a very, very rich topic and it should

19:14

stay a rich topic. Really like you shouldn't be having

19:16

just one conversation and then done. As

19:18

long as this relationship continues, you should

19:20

keep coming back to this topic of

19:23

sex and what you do enjoy about

19:25

your sexual connection and what you want to be a

19:27

part of your sexual connection. But this

19:29

just could be a really exciting opportunity to

19:31

create a really wonderful foundation moving forward if

19:34

both of you are able to come to

19:36

the table. Well two eggs

19:38

with a side of foreplay. We hope

19:40

that this is the beginning of a

19:42

new and exciting sexual

19:44

adventure slash just better harmony

19:47

between the two of you in what

19:49

it is that you both want in

19:51

your sexual connection. And for

19:53

all of you out there, the best place

19:55

to share your thoughts with other listeners is

19:57

in this episode's discussion channel in our Discord.

20:00

server, or you can post

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and join our exclusive community by

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20:15

emery is created and produced by

20:17

Jason Lindgren, Dedekir Winston and me,

20:20

Emily Matlack. Our production assistants are

20:22

Rachel Shenowork and Carson Collins. Our

20:24

theme song is forms I know I did by

20:27

Josh and Anand from the fractal cave EP. The

20:29

full transcript is available on this episode's

20:32

page on multi emery.com. Hey

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there! Did you know Kroger always gives you

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