0:04

Is. Is jealousy a sensation that we

0:06

just need to regulate is the question

0:08

and that depends on. So for those

0:10

who are experiencing a quote unquote normal

0:12

amount of jealousy that comes with the

0:15

territory of non monogamy, then yes. when

0:17

we come back to the notion that

0:19

all emotions at their core. Are.

0:21

Sensations that we feel nobody.

0:24

Which. We label as jealousy,

0:26

anger, fear, whatever it is.

0:28

Then. Yes, we can move through

0:30

jealousy by regulating it's sensations. First.

0:33

And. Then once we let that

0:35

sensation move with us, or we

0:38

move with that, it often uncovers

0:40

deeper. Uncomfortable sensations. I find

0:42

that jealousy covers up. Usually

0:45

a heaviness set off and comes

0:47

with sadness in grief like grieving

0:49

a monogamous relationship he once had

0:51

with your partner. If you open

0:53

up together. Or. A heated

0:56

energy. Running. Through your body that.

0:58

We often associate with anger. And

1:00

once we give these sensations the attention

1:02

and care that they need then we

1:04

can work through. You can also worth

1:06

it. A stories at our minds are

1:08

making up around it which connects the

1:10

mind and body. Welcome

1:14

to the multi emery podcast!

1:16

I'm Jace. I'm Emily it

1:18

I that occur we believe looking

1:20

to. The Future of relationships.

1:22

Not maintaining the status quo of

1:25

the past where they are monogamous,

1:27

polyamorous, swinging, casually dating or if

1:29

he just to relationships differently to

1:32

see you and we're here for

1:34

your. For

1:43

a full. On

1:51

this episode of multi Every podcast.

1:53

We're discussing non monogamy

1:55

and the body. were

1:58

doing something a little bit different today and

2:00

Emily are out for this episode is

2:02

just me along with the wonderful Arit

2:04

Krug who is a board certified dance

2:07

and movement therapist. I am very

2:09

happy to have finally completed

2:11

my credentialing program for somatic

2:13

experiencing therapy. So today she

2:15

and I are going to be discussing

2:18

our experiences working with non-monogamous clients from

2:20

a somatic approach, diving into

2:22

why there can be such a disconnect

2:24

between your body and your brain when

2:26

undertaking something new and scary like a

2:28

non-traditional relationship. We talk about moving

2:31

through sensations of jealousy, generating a

2:33

sense of safe boundaries, and so much

2:35

more. This was a fantastic conversation. I

2:37

really appreciate the opportunity to geek out about

2:39

some of these things and I hope that

2:42

you enjoy. And just a quick note before

2:44

diving in that Arit and I do talk

2:46

a little bit about trauma. We talk a

2:48

bit about assault. We talk a little bit about intimate

2:50

partner violence. So just a heads up in

2:53

case that's something you're not in a space

2:55

to listen to today. Arit Krug is

2:57

an award-winning, board certified dance and

2:59

movement therapist and licensed creative

3:02

arts therapist. Arit helps individuals

3:04

and couples expand their capacity for

3:06

self-love and intimacy in relationships by

3:09

processing past trauma stored in the body.

3:11

Arit is polyamorous, partnered, and

3:13

a parent to a toddler.

3:16

Arit, thank you so much

3:18

for joining us today. Thank you for

3:20

having me. Happy to be here. So

3:22

okay people who've listened to the

3:24

show know that I'm also in

3:26

the somatic therapy world and so

3:28

I'm curious to hear from you

3:31

what was it that first drew you to

3:33

doing somatic movement dance work? I think this

3:35

is a type of therapy that is not

3:37

usually like the first type of therapy

3:40

that people go to when they're ready

3:42

to go to therapy necessarily. Nope, nope.

3:44

It's really not usually the first choice. So

3:47

I grew up dancing in a

3:49

local studio and at the same time I

3:51

was going through my own trauma growing

3:53

up and dance

3:56

just became this safe space

3:59

for me to myself and

4:01

to feel my emotions and

4:04

to release emotions. And,

4:07

you know, as I was growing up, I also

4:09

just kind of intuitively knew that I wanted to

4:11

be some sort of psychotherapist.

4:15

And when I was a senior in high school,

4:17

my mom read about dance therapy in the newspaper.

4:20

And I was like, great, perfect. This is

4:23

my soul's calling. Let's do it. Wow.

4:26

So it was like so clear to you from so early

4:28

on that this is where you were going to be. I

4:30

feel like that's rare these days. Yeah,

4:32

definitely. And I didn't know it was

4:34

a real thing. I got my master's

4:37

degree and did thousands of hours

4:39

of supervised work and

4:41

yeah, been a dance therapist

4:43

for a little over 13 years now.

4:46

Do you find that people have

4:49

a particular assumption

4:51

or a particular image in their head

4:53

when they think about dance or movement

4:55

therapy that you have to dispel? Yes,

4:58

absolutely. It's rare that people really understand it.

5:01

I actually didn't understand it either. Even when

5:03

I was like, oh, I really want to

5:05

do this. This sounds right. I think the

5:07

most common assumption that isn't accurate is that

5:10

you have to know how to dance or

5:12

that there it's a

5:14

technical kind of dance. And really it's about

5:17

understanding the sensations in

5:19

your body, working through

5:21

trauma if that's what you're working through and how does

5:23

your body organically want to

5:25

move through it. And that just looks like a whole

5:27

wide range of things which I think we'll cover in

5:30

our conversation today. Yeah, that's

5:32

interesting about the technical thing. I think that maybe

5:35

in the States, many of us

5:37

have some baggage of like, you know,

5:39

being forced into baby ballet or

5:41

something. I know for me, honestly, my journey with

5:43

really actually trying to reconnect with my body was

5:46

a lot of baggage of just like feeling like

5:48

a big failure in PE class my

5:50

entire childhood and coming out of my

5:53

public education with this weird assumption

5:55

that I'm just someone who's not good

5:58

Moving her body like I'm... There's not good

6:00

at sports or dance, and a weird irony is that

6:02

I went on to become like a professional dancer

6:04

and after that by. But. Yeah, no

6:06

I think it is interesting that already.

6:09

culturally it seems like we have so

6:11

many obstacles. In place preventing us from

6:13

more moving in general without it being

6:16

I think either competitive are highly technical

6:18

but also moving or ganic glee a

6:20

mean I imagine it's a struggle when

6:22

you're working with clients who are new

6:24

to doing any kind of movement therapy.

6:27

Am. Not even. Those who

6:29

are new but even those who

6:31

are begin to yoga who has

6:34

a history of moving Most people.

6:36

If they already have a relationship with movement,

6:38

they're doing it in a very structured way.

6:41

And. So yeah, organically been the

6:43

keyword here. Like. Not. The

6:45

way I think I should move, Not the way

6:47

I think other people think I should move by.

6:50

How does my body really. Want to move

6:52

through this emotion or to express

6:54

myself? Organically which we can.

6:57

Really? Translate to all kinds

6:59

of relational experiences. And.

7:01

Other then all the cultural baggage

7:04

that you've already mentioned, our bodies

7:06

are the vehicle for which we

7:08

interacts. Which. We feel

7:10

emotions. We experience our lives

7:12

and relationships through our bodies.

7:14

So everything is happening through

7:17

S. So. How

7:19

do you convince a skeptic Re I

7:21

think that we're in a time right

7:23

now where I do think. fortunately, You

7:25

know, therapy in general is way less

7:27

stigmatize that it once was. It's much

7:30

more normalized and for better or worse

7:32

we have with the rise of you

7:34

know, the instagram therapists dropping sissy little.

7:36

Quotes. In and nuggets of wisdom in.

7:38

Or sees every single day. However,

7:41

is still very much rooted in

7:43

of course roots the go all

7:46

the way back to traditional psychotherapy.

7:48

Still very much rooted in Cognitive

7:50

Behavioral Therapy is sort of. You

7:52

know the the approached is your.

7:55

And so is these. Are all churches that a very.

7:57

cities i think and headiness

8:00

is not necessarily a bad thing, but I

8:03

think that people can sometimes see something like,

8:05

oh, I'm not going to be necessarily like talking

8:07

through my feelings or using all this therapy jargon.

8:09

Like, how do I know that this is effective?

8:11

How do I know that this is something that's

8:13

going to be for me? So that

8:15

was also like three questions at one. So just

8:18

kind of pick whatever you want out of the

8:20

spaghetti there and we'll get started. Okay.

8:22

My first instinct was I don't

8:25

convince anyone anymore. There are plenty

8:27

of people who are

8:29

ready for this. There are plenty

8:31

of people who aren't, right? There are plenty of people who

8:33

are skeptical, but there are so many

8:35

people who are reading the

8:38

body keeps the score or they're looking

8:40

up polyvagal theory and they're

8:42

understanding that trauma is stored in the

8:44

body. And there's

8:47

also a lot of people who come to

8:49

work with me have this intuitive sense. They're

8:52

like, I know I've done decades. Like

8:55

I worked with people who've done 10, 20, 30

8:58

plus years of talk therapy and even

9:00

other kinds of alternative therapies. A lot

9:02

of people I work with also try EMDR and a lot of

9:04

other kinds of therapies that have

9:08

been helpful, but they're still left with this

9:10

feeling of like their head is disconnected from

9:12

their bodies. And

9:15

they know, they know and

9:17

are aware of what they

9:19

want to do differently and how they

9:21

want to show up in their lives and

9:23

their relationships differently. But it's like the body

9:26

isn't on board. So

9:28

there are so many people who are in that

9:31

place that I think when I started, well, I

9:33

started my work as a dance therapist in a

9:35

psychiatric hospital. So that's a

9:37

very different, a different setting. But when

9:39

I started my business over five years ago, taking private

9:42

clients, I was more in that space of like, how

9:44

do I get people to do this work? And

9:46

I don't think I have to convince anyone anymore.

9:48

Like I think even people who are listening to

9:50

this now, those who will resonate

9:53

will be like, yeah, I really feel that.

9:55

Like that, that feels like where I'm at.

9:58

They're pretty far on their journey. journey

10:01

and they know it's like

10:03

the movement and the body piece scares

10:06

them and they know it's going to be

10:08

a challenge and that's how they know that's what

10:11

they need to do next. That's what a

10:13

lot of people tell me. Interesting. I

10:15

mean, you've described what was very

10:17

much my own

10:19

journey through working through my own

10:21

PTSD. You know, I had like

10:23

really horrible PTSD from

10:25

a physically violent relationship

10:28

that I was fortunately had

10:30

escaped from and you

10:32

know, it was that same thing, right? Of course,

10:34

the prescription is like go

10:36

to a talk therapist, right? You know, and

10:38

so after dragging my feet for a long

10:40

time, like I did get into a talk

10:42

therapist. And when I think about that work

10:44

now, it is this odd

10:47

thing where it was

10:49

very important for me to do that work. It

10:51

was very important for me to

10:53

be heard and it was very important to

10:55

have someone reaffirming, I guess some

10:58

very important, again, I'll label them as

11:00

cognitive messages around this wasn't your fault,

11:02

you shouldn't feel a shame, you should

11:05

be happy that you've gotten through this, you don't

11:07

have to, you know, you don't have to experience

11:09

this again, like you're safe now, it's okay,

11:11

it's okay, it's okay, it's okay, right?

11:14

And like my brain did

11:16

need to hear that but I

11:18

was so confused because it's like

11:20

the PTSD symptoms kept happening. My

11:23

brain knew everything of like, okay, I know

11:25

I'm safe now, I know it's okay, I

11:27

know I shouldn't be ashamed, you know, just

11:29

like on repeat in a loop on a

11:31

spin cycle over and over and over and

11:33

my body was still just freaking out constantly.

11:35

And so for me, yeah, that

11:37

like, I don't know if I would

11:39

call it an intuitive sense that brought me into

11:41

somatic work and eventually put me on this path

11:43

of also doing somatic therapy training, I would

11:46

say like a desperation, honestly, like

11:48

an actual desperation where yeah, I think

11:50

like you described it, like my head is

11:52

not connected to my body or one

11:55

of them is not talking to the other and like, how

11:57

can I get these parts of me

11:59

a little bit more aligned. Yeah.

12:02

Thank you for describing that

12:04

so clearly using your personal experience,

12:07

which really feels powerful. I

12:09

think that's part of the way that if

12:12

I were to convince somebody that I would relate

12:15

what you're saying to the science behind

12:17

that. The research

12:19

shows that we store primarily the majority

12:21

of our trauma memories in the amygdala

12:23

of our brain. And when people are

12:26

going to traditional talk therapy, they're

12:30

using their prefrontal cortex, which governs

12:32

logic and verbal language. And

12:37

because trauma is largely stored

12:39

as nonverbal memories, really sensations in

12:41

the body, in the amygdala, it

12:45

affects the hippocampus, which is the

12:47

part of our brain that helps us distinguish from

12:49

the brain. Which is the part

12:52

of our brain that helps us distinguish past

12:54

from present. We're only using

12:56

the prefrontal cortex in therapy. We're just talking

12:58

to one part of the brain that isn't

13:00

even storing most of the trauma. So the

13:03

disconnect that you describe, like

13:06

you have the words, you heard the words, it

13:09

helped to an extent, which is my experience

13:11

to you because I also spent several years

13:13

in talk therapy, but you

13:15

were still getting triggered because you weren't accessing

13:18

the memories that

13:21

continue to get triggered. So

13:24

this is a very common experience and there's,

13:27

you know, the research includes

13:29

brain mapping and it shows that when we get

13:31

triggered and when

13:35

we're highly stressed, which

13:38

can be right. The similar

13:40

response of cortisol increasing the

13:43

prefrontal cortex, quote unquote goes offline. Yeah.

13:46

And I think when I was going down

13:48

a rabbit hole on this stuff also, I

13:51

learned that the part of our

13:53

brain that converts our thoughts actually into

13:57

speech also can go offline.

14:00

And for me, it was

14:02

this weird double bind because I

14:04

knew that if I was going to

14:06

try to talk about something or if

14:09

I was accessing a particularly traumatic memory

14:11

that I wouldn't want to talk about

14:13

it, right? It would be often very

14:16

overwhelming sensations, emotions, feelings, images, memories, stuff

14:18

like that. But I

14:20

felt that the message I was often getting in

14:22

talk therapy was sort of this like, once

14:24

you can talk about it, that's healing, right?

14:27

Once you can tell your story

14:29

to someone else, automatically that means

14:32

healing. And it's not like that's a total

14:34

lie, you know, because I'm at a point

14:36

now where like I can tell my story

14:38

to people and it's not this incredibly activating,

14:40

triggering thing. But at the time,

14:42

it was so confusing for me where I was

14:45

just like, well, but when I start to talk

14:47

about it, I feel horrible. You know,

14:49

I just feel absolutely awful. And so what do I

14:51

just need to force myself through this situation again and

14:53

again and again, like kind of treat it like exposure

14:55

therapy. So I mean, for

14:58

me, finally finding somatic work, finally being

15:00

able to like move

15:02

through some of those sensations that were

15:04

in there and sort of have someone

15:06

help make those sensations less scary

15:09

to help kind of increase my capacity

15:11

for that and also increase my capacity

15:14

for feeling a sense of safety and

15:16

security and care

15:18

was just like so, so vital

15:20

for me. What

15:22

this is leading me to though, is that of course,

15:25

when I think about a population

15:27

of clients that like to be

15:29

very heady and like to talk things out

15:32

a lot in their approach, I think about

15:34

the Nominogamous community because

15:37

I think for better for worse and

15:39

maybe my sample is biased

15:41

because I'm thinking mostly about like

15:43

listeners of this podcast. But

15:45

a lot of the people that I either work

15:48

with as clients in the Nominogamous community or

15:50

people who are my peers, I think this is

15:52

a population

15:54

that tends to

15:56

really enjoy understanding

15:58

therapeutic concepts. tends to

16:01

enjoy education about relationship

16:03

concepts, learning about attachment theory,

16:06

learning about neurodivergence, learning about

16:08

different communication styles, which

16:10

of course I love and here at

16:12

Multigamery we absolutely love. And

16:15

also, I think that there's

16:17

some particular quirks when

16:19

it comes to approaching

16:21

nomenogamous clients with a talk-based

16:23

approach versus a somatic approach.

16:25

So I'm curious to know from your

16:27

experience, you know, when you started working with

16:30

nomenogamous clients and are there things that you've

16:32

noticed about working with this population when it

16:34

comes to working with the body or with

16:36

movement? Yeah, great

16:38

question. And yes, I think we

16:40

love our terms and our... Yeah,

16:42

we love putting things into categories

16:45

because non-monogamy is already such a

16:47

paradigm shift that like we need

16:49

all the stuff. We need to

16:52

understand and make sense of it

16:54

because it can be so unsettling.

16:56

Like it was so unsettling for

16:59

me becoming non-monogamous and I'm still

17:01

working through the paradigm

17:03

shift. But when it comes

17:05

to the body and

17:08

it comes to working with the body

17:10

and the nervous system, there really isn't

17:12

a huge distinction between my work with

17:14

monogamous folks and non-monogamous folks.

17:17

Whatever their relationship structure... Well,

17:19

that's because I work with people who

17:22

have already identified that they are

17:25

often storing trauma in their bodies

17:27

and their nervous system which create

17:29

a hypervigilance and an intensified fear

17:32

around abandonment, jealousy, insecurity, which as

17:35

we know can be even more heightened

17:37

whether we're new or experienced

17:39

in non-monogamy. And

17:42

so at the level of working

17:44

with the body, all of this looks similar,

17:46

working with the trauma that is stored in

17:48

the body because the body experiences a trauma

17:51

trigger or a trauma memory which,

17:54

again, research shows are stored

17:56

as fragments of sensations which

17:59

you talked about, right? Like a

18:01

memory or a feeling in the body, it's like

18:03

you could be having the best day

18:05

and you walk down the street and you smell

18:07

a certain smell and all of a sudden a

18:09

flashback is triggered out of the blue

18:12

and it's because that smell is similar

18:16

to the memory of a smell that

18:18

you experience at the time of your trauma.

18:21

And so when that happens, the body

18:23

often reacts in one of a few

18:25

ways, fight, flight, freeze, on. Then we

18:29

react in a way where we, I'm

18:31

going to say we believe, but it's

18:33

really not a conscious thing. The nervous system

18:35

does whatever it needs to

18:38

do to keep us safe.

18:40

And usually those behaviors are

18:42

behaviors that sabotage, that can

18:44

really sabotage relationships. So,

18:46

you know, if it's a fight

18:49

response, we might get aggressive. If it's

18:51

a flight response, we might just leave and

18:53

drive away in the middle of a conversation, a

18:55

freeze response we may withdraw from

18:58

the relationship and fawn, you know,

19:00

people pleasing, abandoning our own needs

19:02

to please our partners, which I

19:04

think we know leads to nowhere, nowhere

19:07

great. And so again,

19:09

whether I'm working with a couple

19:11

or individual who are monogamous or

19:14

non-monogamous, this all looks similar. But

19:16

when we zoom out and focus

19:18

on the story, that's where the

19:20

difference lies. So for a monogamous

19:23

couple, it can be this

19:25

fear of abandonment that was triggered by their partner not

19:28

coming home at a certain time and not

19:30

communicating about it. And that could be the

19:33

same exact story for a non-monogamous couple, but

19:35

maybe it's because their partner was on a date with

19:37

someone else. So that complexifies or adds

19:39

another layer to this fear. Yeah,

19:42

I think that something I've

19:45

noticed sometimes when working with non-monogamous

19:47

folks, even people again who are

19:49

very experienced at

19:51

this, who are very comfortable

19:54

with relating in this particular

19:56

way, I do think there's

19:58

so many layers of cultural mess- messaging, right? And if

20:00

we're kind of looking at it in these two different

20:02

channels, like of course there is the cognitive messaging that

20:04

we get around monogamy is the only way to do

20:06

this. What you're doing is immoral

20:08

or it's wrong or it's bad or whatever. And

20:10

then I feel like there's this other layer of

20:13

where people can do a lot of work around,

20:15

no, I feel very solid in my identity. I

20:18

feel very solid in my choice to relate

20:20

in this particular way. I feel very comfortable

20:22

having conversations or debates with people who disagree

20:24

with me or I feel like I have

20:26

good boundaries around that and can protect myself. But

20:29

then I do think that there's certain of these

20:31

messages that can come in through this like

20:34

more felt sense channel, something

20:36

that's more stored in our emotions

20:38

and in our body sensations around

20:41

things like the experience that

20:43

we had the first time someone ever broke up

20:45

with us for someone else, right?

20:47

Those feelings around finding

20:50

out that our parents were getting divorced,

20:52

those like body sensations that got stored

20:54

around. This one

20:56

comes up a lot with hinges of being

20:59

a child of divorce and running interference between

21:01

two parents. That one happens

21:03

a lot with hinges I find. Or

21:05

even these bigger messages around, oh, like

21:07

when you're here at home while your

21:09

partner's out on a date, like this

21:12

imagery really matches

21:14

with the imagery of someone essentially

21:17

being like taken advantage of. Or,

21:19

oh, like when you're on this date with

21:21

this married person, this imagery really matches this

21:23

imagery of you being a homewrecker. And I

21:25

do think that as fortified as your brain and

21:28

heart can be against all

21:30

of the obstacles and all the pushback

21:32

that Naminogamy gets that I do think there

21:34

is something below the neck that still

21:37

stores these deep feelings of

21:39

shame, fear, rejection, you

21:42

know, all of those things. It's like there's

21:44

this big kind of like primordial soup that

21:47

gets built up over time. And

21:49

I know when I'm working with

21:51

people, yeah, like that's what often people talk

21:53

about is this weird sense of like feeling

21:56

this deeper exhaustion or this

21:59

deeper sense of shame. of malaise, even though

22:01

they feel very affirmed

22:03

and safe in their relationships or

22:05

in their community. Yeah. You bring up

22:07

a good point about the disconnect between the mind

22:10

and the body, right? Like the mind is firm

22:13

and secure, but the body

22:15

is still like what

22:18

you're naming is there are

22:20

these unresolved traumas that

22:22

are being remembered

22:24

through these new situations, which is exactly

22:27

what happened to me

22:29

when I opened up my relationship.

22:32

I was secure and I am secure with

22:34

my husband. We've been together for over

22:36

10 years. I'm like, great,

22:38

I'm secure. You know,

22:40

like I guess I healed all my

22:43

traumas and anxious attachments. As soon as that

22:45

comes out of your mouth, the universe

22:47

is just like, nope, no. I

22:50

mean, I didn't have to think about it, right?

22:52

But then when I started, when we started dating

22:55

separately, it was like, oh,

22:57

okay, rude, rude awakening. Like

23:00

you have not resolved all this. You

23:02

just got secure with, with your partner

23:04

and you haven't had to work through

23:07

this in over a decade. And

23:12

it's, I mean, that's the beauty of

23:14

namanagami is we almost get a

23:18

second chance to work through

23:20

these unresolved traumas

23:22

that we may have never

23:24

had the opportunity to, if we didn't open

23:26

up. But it does come with, yeah,

23:28

it comes with a lot of work. And

23:31

I see this in my work too.

23:33

Like even on a, I was working

23:35

with one couple where the

23:37

female partner was saying

23:40

verbally, I'm happy with this. I'm good

23:42

with this. Her partner

23:44

was dating someone new. I'm happy for

23:46

you. And the male

23:49

partner was communicating, I

23:51

feel like you're not, I feel

23:53

like you're not okay with this,

23:55

which made her upset, right? And

23:57

unvalidated her. And they were

24:00

starting to go around in circles talking about this and

24:02

I just was like, all right, let's have

24:04

this conversation in movement. And

24:07

I had them do kind of a call and response thing

24:10

where instead of saying, hey, I'm okay

24:12

with this, move your body

24:14

gesture, what you put,

24:17

like put these words into gestures. And

24:19

I know that sounds really abstract, but you know, I was talking

24:22

them through that. And when she

24:24

did her movements, they

24:27

were moving in all different directions

24:30

and her movements were

24:32

not direct or straightforward at all. They

24:35

actually felt a little bit chaotic to all of us

24:38

who are witnessing this. And what

24:40

she ended up connecting from this movement

24:42

is that actually she does feel pulled

24:45

in many different directions. She's

24:47

happy, being non-monogamous. She wants it.

24:50

It feels right. But

24:52

she's also scared. She's

24:54

upset. She's grieving the

24:56

monogamous relationship that she once

24:58

had with her partner. And

25:01

of course, this is also normal to be

25:03

experiencing the whole spectrum of emotions. But

25:06

for whatever reason, she was

25:08

either wasn't realizing that or she

25:10

didn't feel safe to feel. And

25:12

I think there are also messages of like, you can't feel jealous

25:15

or, you know, you have to just

25:17

be happy and happy for me. And

25:19

that movement revealed so much in just such a

25:21

quick time that we were then able to acknowledge

25:23

the feelings that were there and work through them.

25:26

Yeah, I think that what

25:29

strikes me as so interesting

25:31

and powerful about doing this

25:33

kind of work is I mean,

25:36

I know we're all familiar with the

25:38

aphorism because of the book title, you know,

25:40

about the body keeping the score. I feel

25:43

like the body is also worth it

25:45

lying than our brains are.

25:48

And maybe just maybe to say lying

25:50

is is a

25:52

little bit dramatic. But I mean, but

25:54

I know I can show up to

25:57

a talk therapy session and whether

25:59

it's by my I sell for it with a partner that

26:02

like you said, like my prefrontal cortex is

26:04

online to a certain extent, that means I'm

26:06

putting my best foot forward to a

26:08

certain extent. I know I want to get an A

26:11

plus in therapy. And so to a certain

26:13

extent, I know how to

26:16

tell my particular story, express my emotions

26:18

verbally in such a way that maybe

26:20

can still keep me relatively

26:23

safe and protected and not having to be

26:25

too vulnerable. And

26:27

then once we sort of turn off

26:29

that particular channel of just being

26:32

able to word salad our way

26:34

around our feelings and provided

26:36

that someone feels like just safe enough

26:38

and comfortable enough to actually move organically in

26:41

that particular way, I think there's so much

26:43

information that comes out, it's much more difficult

26:45

to hide. At least in my

26:47

experience working with people somatically and also my

26:49

experience being on the client side of things,

26:51

it's just like so much harder to, I

26:54

guess, put a nice pretty package

26:58

on the things that I'm experiencing or

27:00

feeling because they kind of just come

27:02

out the way that they're gonna come

27:04

out. And

27:06

there's no kind of peeling away these layers

27:08

of intellect or cognition or stuff to kind

27:10

of get to the heart of it, kind

27:12

of cut straight to the heart of like

27:14

what's actually being felt in that particular moment.

27:17

Absolutely. We are really

27:19

good at filtering our

27:23

feelings through words. We

27:25

are experts at choosing

27:27

what we say, but when it comes to the body,

27:29

it's very hard to hide

27:31

the way we feel, which is

27:34

what's scary about doing this work

27:36

and also what's so powerful and

27:39

efficient. Like that story that I just told you

27:41

about my clients that was revealed in just a

27:43

few minutes of moving. To

27:45

add to what you're saying, it's not just that

27:47

we are great at

27:50

manipulating our words to sound a certain way,

27:53

but there are simply things we

27:55

just... Some people, a lot

27:57

of people who have experienced trauma, they

27:59

don't... even have the words for

28:01

it yet, whether they experienced trauma pre-verbally

28:03

in the first two years of life

28:06

or the trauma, there are trauma memories that

28:09

are so stored in the

28:11

nonverbal space that until we

28:13

move together and until they feel

28:15

safe to move this, they

28:17

don't even realize it's there. I

28:19

was working with one client who a few

28:22

sessions in, we started moving with more

28:25

powerful movements. She really wanted to be able

28:27

to be... Her

28:30

main issue is that whenever she and her partner were

28:32

getting into conflict, she would freeze up and she would

28:35

go silent and yes,

28:38

she would be re-triggered. And she really wanted

28:40

to be able to stay in the conversation

28:42

and be able to work through this

28:46

conflict with her partner. And

28:49

so in moving that, we moved

28:51

these more powerful, firm

28:54

movements and immediately the

28:56

sphere came up. And usually what

28:58

people want to do when fear comes up, especially in

29:01

this work is freeze. They want

29:03

to stop it. And I don't... Again,

29:05

I'm saying that in a conscious way, but that's the nervous

29:07

system that automatically reacts in a freeze response, which is quite

29:09

an intense response because

29:11

the freeze response helped us

29:14

tense our muscles so

29:16

much to the point that we wouldn't get eaten alive

29:18

by predators would be less appetizing. So that's a pretty

29:20

intense response. So when you're

29:22

feeling a feeling and then you freeze, it's

29:24

like you don't feel safe. And so

29:27

her instinct was to freeze. And

29:30

this is part of the work. It's like regulating,

29:32

staying present in the relationship

29:34

with me as the therapist

29:37

and also in their body.

29:39

So like, how do you want to

29:41

move your body right now? And

29:46

allowing them to start moving. She started swaying.

29:49

And then as she was getting more in her body, how do you want to move

29:51

your body now? And she

29:53

started moving bigger movements, which show that

29:55

she was starting to feel more comfortable

29:58

expressing. bit

30:00

bigger, taking up more space. And

30:02

then I asked one more time, how do you want to move?

30:05

Now, how does your body want to move? That's

30:07

actually how I asked it. How does your body want to move? And

30:10

she started doing more powerful movements again, which is

30:13

more regulated, but it brought up

30:15

this memory to realize just

30:17

in that moment why moving

30:20

power felt so fearful

30:23

because the way that she witnessed

30:25

domestic violence was an abuse and

30:27

misuse of power. And this

30:29

very specific memory came up when

30:31

she was 13 years old. She stood

30:34

between her mother and her father.

30:36

Her father was holding a gun to

30:38

her mother, pointing a gun.

30:41

And she's like, oh my God, she had

30:43

been in therapy for so long and that

30:45

never came up. So some of these

30:48

memories, they can just

30:50

come up through movement. And she's

30:52

actually really relieved by that. It

30:55

came up and she was able to let it go. She's like, wow,

30:58

I was holding onto that for 25 plus years. And

31:04

it's powerful. Sometimes

31:06

you can't access the stuff through words. Yeah,

31:10

it's funny. Sometimes I know when

31:12

I've been on the client side

31:14

working in this way, there's almost

31:17

this sensation of like

31:19

within everything that makes up me,

31:22

all of my memories, all of my traumas, all of

31:24

my personality quirks, all

31:26

of my neuroses, everything that

31:29

goes into me. There's

31:31

like this secret behind the scenes,

31:33

Charlie from Always Sunny in Philadelphia

31:35

pointing to the conspiracy theory board

31:37

of the things that are connected

31:39

that I don't even realize are

31:41

connected. And

31:43

again, our brain can make like certain connections. And

31:46

I think especially in this day and

31:48

age when therapy and therapy language and

31:50

therapy concepts are becoming so normalized that

31:52

our brains are going to be really

31:55

good about like, yes, I'm anxious attached

31:57

and I know that it's because this...

32:00

This thing happened with my parents and like my dad was

32:02

always this way and my mom was always this way and

32:04

then like this kept happening to me in my relationships and

32:06

so that's why I'm anxious attached that like we're

32:08

good at connecting those dots. But then

32:10

sometimes when you just kind of open

32:13

up this channel either through movement or

32:15

whatever that something completely unexpected can

32:17

come forward. I know that's happened to

32:19

me so many times where I'm like,

32:21

oh my God, like this very specific

32:24

memory of a fight that my parents

32:26

had actually is connected to the feelings

32:28

that are coming up in the conflict that I'm experiencing right now

32:31

with my partner and it's a

32:33

little bit more direct than just,

32:35

oh, the reason I'm experiencing

32:37

these feelings in this conflict is because

32:39

I'm anxious attached or whatever. And

32:43

so yeah, it is like uncovering this amazing

32:46

constellation that your

32:48

inner self has put together and sort of

32:51

untangling some of those knots and understanding things

32:53

a little bit better. Before

32:55

we continue this conversation, I'm going to take a quick break

32:57

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here. I wanted to

40:01

shift the topic just a tiny bit when

40:03

you were talking and sharing that story

40:05

earlier, it started making me think

40:07

about boundary work. Now,

40:10

I'm really excited about boundary work. It's something

40:12

that I do with my clients pretty frequently,

40:14

but I was kind of wondering about what

40:16

you've noticed. If you've ever had

40:18

clients who've approached you feeling like they're

40:21

having trouble with figuring out their boundaries

40:23

or they're having trouble with enforcing their

40:25

boundaries or stuff like that, is that ever

40:27

something that has come up in the work

40:30

that you do? Absolutely.

40:32

Yeah. And it usually, I

40:35

feel like the pattern usually presents

40:37

itself as it's one polar

40:40

opposite, one polar side or the other.

40:44

People are either so

40:46

strong in their boundaries and

40:49

they're like, I have to, it has to be

40:52

this way and I can't have it

40:54

this way. And it's so firm and

40:56

direct to the point where there's no

40:59

wiggle room or the other

41:01

side where it's like, I abandoned

41:04

my needs, I abandoned my boundaries

41:06

because I'm so afraid that, you

41:09

know, I'm so afraid of abandonment that I'll

41:12

just do whatever you want. And

41:14

that's kind of one of my

41:16

favorite things to play with in this

41:18

work is these polar

41:21

sides of anything.

41:24

So that firmness and

41:26

that softness on the extreme side,

41:29

we can move being

41:32

really firm and being really direct,

41:34

truly physically in movement. And we

41:36

can also play with softness, like actually

41:39

exploring softness in your body.

41:42

And then what does it feel

41:44

like to connect those two? It's

41:46

been one of the most mind

41:48

blowing discoveries in

41:50

my clients, not in their minds, but in their

41:53

bodies. I can be strong

41:55

and soft at the same time. I

41:58

can move directly. with

42:01

softness and actually trying that on

42:03

in physical movement gives them this

42:05

embodied confidence and

42:07

awareness and experience of being able

42:10

to do that in their relationships.

42:13

We can test that out even in the way we

42:15

speak like I'm going to speak with this firmness

42:18

but I can speak with the softness

42:20

at the same time. It's that's part

42:22

of integration integrating these different parts of

42:25

me that come out in these situations.

42:28

I love that. I love that image of moving

42:31

directly with softness, like moving in

42:33

both strength and with softness because

42:35

I do feel like that perfectly

42:38

encapsulates when our

42:40

own personal boundaries are working the

42:42

most effectively for us. The

42:45

work that I tend to do with people,

42:48

especially people who are coming in

42:50

with maybe a history of assault

42:53

or a history of being

42:55

severely taken advantage of in relationship,

42:57

basically a history of their boundaries kind

42:59

of being plowed over multiple

43:02

times often. There

43:04

is something so powerful about generating

43:08

that felt

43:10

sense of strength and

43:12

security within the boundary that again, and

43:14

I feel like we're both going to sound like

43:17

broken records here, but again, that's not just

43:19

this heady sense of, okay, I've

43:21

figured out what my boundaries are and

43:23

I can state them to people clearly,

43:25

but this actual felt sense of like,

43:27

no, there is something that is protecting

43:30

me that is generated from within, right?

43:32

And when I work with

43:34

people, sometimes it's repairing a

43:36

sense of even being aware of the

43:38

fact that like your skin is a boundary

43:40

that's kind of protecting the inside of you

43:42

from the rest of the world. Repairing

43:45

and feeling into that sense of the

43:47

fact that your limbs kind of provide

43:49

a particular boundary for you. You

43:51

know that like it creates this particular bubble of

43:53

space around you that actually protects you. And

43:55

then again, really fortifying

43:57

that sense that again, is

44:00

going to sound dramatic, but almost that there is like

44:02

this inner power within you to

44:04

protect yourself in this particular way. And if

44:06

you've had a really long relationship history, again,

44:08

of feeling like your boundaries were completely plowed

44:10

over, feeling like you couldn't really enforce them,

44:13

or feeling like they were never considered

44:15

or never given the time of day, it's easy

44:17

to lose that sense, right? And

44:20

I think that that can lead to this very anxious sense of

44:22

maybe that overcompensating of like, I have to be

44:25

super hyper vigilant about my boundaries or have to

44:27

be very tight-fisted about my boundaries. I have to

44:29

make sure that everyone knows exactly what they

44:31

are and I have to like really

44:33

lead with that in every single interaction. But

44:35

then when someone shifts into

44:37

feeling a little bit more grounded in that,

44:39

I find that that need often melts away

44:42

for people. You know, there's almost

44:44

like a little bit more of a self-trust in

44:46

their ability to express a

44:48

boundary, protect themselves when it's necessary, when they

44:50

have to, and to do it in such

44:52

a way that's not like a

44:55

very aggressive, violent sort of

44:57

way of protecting themselves. Exactly. I

45:01

was going to say the exact same thing. Like it's a

45:03

lack of trust in self. You know, if

45:05

I have to be super firm

45:07

in setting, saying, and

45:09

stating these boundaries, you know,

45:13

almost like word vomit, it's like I have

45:15

to let everyone know because

45:17

I don't even know if I'm going to be able to

45:19

set them when I'm triggered or when I'm feeling a certain

45:21

way. And that is

45:24

an embodied experience, trusting yourself to

45:26

move. I'm

45:28

not talking about like dancing or moving

45:31

and like, again, we move. When

45:35

we're in interaction, we're moving. We're gesturing. We

45:37

may be going closer to someone. We may be moving

45:40

away. We're deciding how much space we want, how

45:42

it's trusting ourselves, how we want

45:44

to move or how we move

45:47

in relationship to others. And

45:51

we can talk about that, but

45:53

that is where we started with this podcast

45:55

is that the body doesn't often

45:57

align with the intentions, the body

45:59

isn't. quite connected. The mind

46:02

knows I, you know, when

46:04

my partner does this or when my

46:06

metamour does this, I want to be

46:08

able to speak up

46:10

in a calm, loving,

46:12

but assertive way, but

46:15

the body's just like, I don't know, maybe there's

46:17

a sensation of heated energy going

46:19

through the arms and it's like, you have

46:21

to say this and it comes out really

46:24

strong and aggressive and body's

46:26

not on board. The body doesn't quite know

46:28

how to move in this soft

46:30

but firm way. Well,

46:33

so speaking of heated aggressive feelings, I

46:35

want to bring up the always the

46:37

hot topic when it comes to non-monogamy

46:40

that everyone wants to work through, talk

46:42

about, think about, get more tips on

46:44

is about the sensation of jealousy. And

46:47

I've, as I've started to

46:49

work more with people in

46:51

this particular realm, some questions have come

46:53

up. For some people, it's the sense

46:55

of, okay, you know, when I connect

46:58

with these felt sensations of jealousy, okay,

47:01

is this just a sensation to be

47:03

regulated away or is this

47:06

a deep trauma response? Is

47:08

this a deep attachment panic that's

47:10

happening? Or I think there's a

47:12

little bit of jealousy can kind

47:15

of like straddle many different spheres, at

47:17

least the feelings that come up can straddle many

47:19

different spheres. And sometimes I think

47:21

people do get confused around, I mean, for

47:23

lack of a better question, like, oh my

47:25

God, how serious is this? Is this just

47:28

something I need to just let this wave

47:30

pass through me or is this like some

47:32

kind of PTSD that's coming up? And

47:34

so I'm curious about your thoughts on that or

47:36

your experience working with that. Yeah,

47:39

that's a great question. Jealousy

47:41

in non-monogamy and in life

47:43

is normal to have. So I'm going to say that first.

47:45

I don't think we can hear it too many times. And

47:49

so is jealousy a sensation

47:51

that we just need to regulate is

47:53

the question and that depends. So

47:55

for those who are experiencing a

47:57

quote unquote normal amount of jealousy

47:59

that comes with the territory of non-monogamy,

48:02

then yes, when we come back

48:04

to the notion that all emotions at their

48:06

core are sensations that we feel

48:08

in the body, which we label

48:11

as jealousy, anger, fear,

48:13

whatever it is, then yes,

48:15

we can move through jealousy by

48:17

regulating its sensations first. And

48:19

then once we let that sensation move with

48:22

us or we move with it, it

48:24

often uncovers deeper, uncomfortable

48:27

sensations. I find that

48:29

jealousy covers up usually a

48:31

heaviness that often comes with sadness and

48:33

grief, like grieving the monogamous

48:36

relationship you once had with your partner if

48:39

you opened up together or

48:41

a heated energy running through

48:43

your body that we often associate with anger.

48:46

And once we give the sensations, the

48:48

attention and care that they need, then

48:50

we can work through... We can

48:52

also work through the stories that our mind are

48:54

making up around it, which connects the mind

48:57

and body. Then on the flip side,

48:59

if the sensations and reactions

49:01

coming up around jealousy are

49:04

so intense and uncontrollable,

49:06

then that indicates a trauma

49:08

response. And that

49:10

does require a deeper process

49:12

of processing trauma and

49:14

rewiring the nervous system around these

49:17

sensations and expanding one's window of

49:19

tolerance of safety to

49:21

be able to navigate jealousy without

49:24

exploding or disregulating or withdrawing

49:26

to the point that it

49:28

may sabotage their ability to be

49:30

in relationship. So, yeah,

49:32

that leads me to, I guess

49:34

I'll throw at you the impossible question that

49:36

clients also sometimes like to throw at me, which

49:39

is this, you know, sometimes I

49:41

think people may identify

49:43

through doing some of this work

49:46

like, ooh, yeah, there is actually a

49:48

trauma response underneath this. You

49:51

know, my experience of jealousy is like

49:55

much more overwhelming than I was expecting that

49:57

it would be, or it's much less controlled.

50:00

that I thought that it would be, does

50:02

this mean it's always going to be this

50:05

way? Does this mean that choosing any kind

50:07

of non-normative form of relating is just not

50:09

an option for me or can I work

50:11

through this or not? Like I think that

50:13

I see a lot of people suffering

50:15

around that question of, okay,

50:17

so I feel this particular way, is

50:20

that something that if I can just fix

50:22

it, then all my non-monogamous relationships are going

50:24

to be okay? Or is this just a

50:26

part of what makes it

50:28

me, me, and maybe I shouldn't be

50:31

in this type of relationship? Well, you

50:33

had originally said that they

50:35

are having a trauma response. So I

50:37

don't think your trauma is

50:39

you. Your trauma isn't you. It's

50:42

the way that you are currently

50:44

wired to react to

50:46

certain situations, especially one as

50:49

fragile and intense as jealousy.

50:52

So that would be my first answer is, no,

50:54

this isn't you. And

50:57

the other thing that came up when you were

50:59

asking that question is like, it's not a this

51:01

or that, it's like, go slower. There's so much

51:03

coming up. I mean, that's what happened for

51:05

me when I opened up my relationship and I was

51:07

like, whoa, there's

51:09

a lot to work through. I took a

51:12

break from dating. I

51:15

had to like take

51:17

some space and really work through this stuff and

51:19

it's okay to slow down your journey. I think

51:21

that's hard when you are with a

51:24

partner, for example, who is maybe dating

51:26

and you're like springing up more stuff and it's like,

51:28

if I just have my own partner, then, you

51:30

know, right?

51:32

Yeah, the perfect on paper solution. Yes.

51:36

Yes. Feelsy. Yeah. So,

51:39

but just, yeah, go slower because

51:41

these things feel intolerable when we

51:43

try to rush through them and we

51:46

try to find that fix and

51:48

that resolution so quickly. But when you're

51:51

working with trauma, it has its own

51:53

process. I've worked with clients where we

51:55

can resolve the trauma really quickly. I've

51:57

worked with clients where it takes longer. I mean, it really. It

52:00

depends on each person, each

52:02

couple and the co-creation of

52:04

the trauma happening together. But

52:07

either way, it's a

52:09

neurophysiological shift that needs

52:12

to happen. And if

52:14

you have a nervous system, which we all

52:16

do, it can be shifted.

52:19

It just, I think, you know, people

52:21

get impatient, which I understand. I

52:23

do too. It can happen. Yeah,

52:26

I really appreciate you bringing that up.

52:28

And I want to tie this to

52:30

what we were talking about earlier with

52:33

labels and concepts that, you

52:36

know, I think that there's a particular journey sometimes

52:38

that we need to go on. Something that I

52:40

know has been shared a couple of times on

52:42

this show is this idea that some people

52:45

finding a label and let's say for

52:47

the sake of example, their attachment style,

52:50

you know, for some people finding, oh my

52:52

goodness, I'm a void it. Like I'm so

52:54

glad I have a word to put

52:56

to it, right? At the very least,

52:58

I have a word to put into Google

53:01

to find some more resources. I have a

53:03

word to act a shorthand to share with

53:05

people like, oh, this is so great. And

53:07

for other people, you know, they're very millennial and it's

53:10

like, no labels, oh my God, I can't be boxed

53:12

in by labels, right? You know, and that's totally fine.

53:15

But then something that could happen is like, I think

53:17

sometimes the joy and the comfort and

53:19

the peace that sometimes comes from finding a

53:21

particular label, whether it's labeling your attachment style

53:24

or the particular type of trauma or the

53:26

particular type of PTSD that you're

53:28

dealing with. I think

53:30

there can be this tendency to collapse it into

53:32

the sense of self, you

53:34

know, to collapse into I am

53:37

this attachment style. That is who

53:39

I am. I am this particular flavor of trauma.

53:41

Like that is who I am and that is

53:43

how I'm always going to operate. And

53:46

I think there is this delicate dance where on the one

53:49

hand, I know I never want to just

53:51

tell someone like, oh, just get over it. You can

53:53

fix that, right? Just get over

53:55

your avoidant attachment. You can just fix that because that's

53:57

not really how it works. And also

53:59

there's this. there does need to be this differentiation,

54:02

right? This sense that like this

54:04

can be a part of you

54:06

that you maybe literally or metaphorically

54:08

have to dance with sometimes. And

54:11

also it can be shifted and it can be

54:13

shifted in a direction that's more

54:16

sustainable for you and also more

54:19

supportive of your human relationships at

54:21

the same time. Absolutely.

54:24

And our, you know, when it comes to

54:26

trauma, we're working with the nervous

54:29

system. And if the nervous system doesn't

54:31

feel safe, the nervous system feels pushed

54:33

too hard, it's going to

54:35

constrict back into safety. And

54:37

that is a huge inner

54:39

dilemma that I see with a lot of clients

54:41

is wanting to move through it faster, wanting

54:44

this intense experience, especially

54:46

on retreat, right? Like it's

54:48

an intensive experience, but actually

54:51

we don't do anything super intense. We don't

54:53

rush through the process. It's this gentle,

54:56

gradual release and

54:59

working through the stuff

55:01

that actually creates the most change.

55:04

And yeah, I think when we try to,

55:06

and you could, we can feel this in

55:08

the body, like when there's this urgency, this

55:11

urgency around healing or just getting to this

55:13

place already, it's kind of counterproductive.

55:16

We have to feel relaxed

55:18

and open and safe, literally

55:20

physically in the body. And

55:22

I do think those terms, while

55:24

they can be helpful, can serve

55:26

as another way to disconnect from

55:28

the body. When we overanalyze and we think,

55:31

and we're looking for more labels and I

55:33

call it toxic self-awareness, which

55:35

some people don't like, but some people love that. I love that.

55:37

I love that. I'm going to write that down. We're going to do an

55:39

entire episode just about that. That's wonderful. Okay. I actually,

55:41

I came up with that term a couple of years

55:44

ago and I wrote an article about on elephant journal.

55:46

I was like, I feel like this has

55:48

to spread, but you know, having it, but yeah.

55:50

Yeah. So it further disconnects

55:57

us from the body when we're like trying

55:59

to. figure out more terms or trying

56:02

to figure out more category, you know what

56:04

I mean? And going back

56:06

to jealousy or any

56:08

powerful emotion, we can feel

56:10

so hijacked by these feelings, by

56:12

these sensations. And if

56:15

we go back into our heads through it, like, what is this about?

56:17

Why can't I figure it out? You're not

56:19

really working with the sensation. And

56:22

what's most powerful is to be able

56:25

to become in command

56:27

of these sensations. And

56:30

again, when we're just so much going back into

56:32

the mind, it's taking us

56:34

further from that. I'm curious

56:36

in your work because this is something

56:38

that I've noticed sometimes when people start

56:41

getting into somatic work or movement-based

56:43

work and they're having

56:45

a lot of success with it and they're really

56:47

enjoying it a lot. Sometimes

56:50

I see it tip into

56:52

a place that I might call some

56:54

spiritual bypassing in the sense of like,

56:56

because sometimes it can be, oh my

56:59

God, like I'm having a jealousy freak out today

57:01

because my partner did yana yana yana yana. Can

57:03

you just sit with me and kind of guide

57:06

me through some movement to work it through or

57:09

just sit with me and kind of help me generate

57:11

some sense of feelings of safety and security and feeling

57:13

good and like, okay, great, awesome. Okay, now I can

57:16

pop back into my normal life now that I've sort

57:18

of, I don't know, I guess sort of

57:21

erased the feelings of distress that I

57:23

was feeling in a particular way. And

57:25

there are some clients where doing

57:27

that work is the work itself,

57:29

right? So it's like connecting to that

57:31

sense of safety and security and connecting

57:34

back to feelings of goodness in the

57:36

body is the thing that they need

57:38

and they need that repeated in order to kind of work through

57:41

some stuff. And then I see some clients where it

57:43

is kind of like, I feel like they're on a

57:45

merry-go-round on a carousel in their relationship with the

57:47

same things coming up again and again and again

57:49

and again. And they're coming kind

57:51

of just as like a pressure release valve

57:53

to then jump back into it. Is

57:56

that something that you've ever encountered in

57:58

your practice? Yeah,

58:00

yeah, of course. We just want to

58:02

chase the good feelings, right? But healing

58:04

isn't about just feeling good. Healing is

58:07

about feeling all the feelings, the

58:09

ones that feel good and the ones that

58:11

don't. And I find that the deepest healing,

58:13

which I'm still really

58:15

deeply embodying, is acceptance

58:18

of all of our parts and

58:21

the full spectrum of our

58:23

experiences and our emotions. Which,

58:26

when we accept the

58:28

full spectrum and all the parts of

58:30

ourselves, like the part of me that

58:32

feels jealous and insecure about

58:34

my partner being in a relationship, but

58:37

then there's also this part of me that feels really happy and

58:39

excited for him to be experiencing this.

58:42

When I can integrate these parts and

58:45

have acceptance for this experience that

58:48

I'm having that seems conflicting but

58:50

is really just human, I only

58:53

accept and love myself more, but

58:55

I can hold all

58:57

of that at the same time for

59:00

my clients, for my partner, for my

59:02

friends. Because when I accept that in myself,

59:04

I accept that in other people. Yeah,

59:06

beautiful. Okay, that was good too. That was good. I'm going to

59:08

write that one down. I

59:11

guess I want to say that you

59:13

mentioned spiritual bypassing, and I

59:15

think that happens because people aren't

59:17

accepting their full

59:20

spectrum of emotions. And this

59:22

can look like bringing

59:25

some uncomfortable feelings

59:29

to one of your partners about

59:31

something that happened. And your

59:33

partner gets defensive. Yeah, they feel like they've

59:36

done something wrong because you're experiencing a negative

59:38

emotion. They're not an acceptance of

59:40

you having a negative emotion, which is

59:42

a reflection of their own stuff, that

59:45

they're not an acceptance. It's

59:47

a reflection. It's like a clear, exposing

59:49

mirror, like I haven't done the

59:51

work to accept all of my emotions, so I

59:53

can't hold that for you. Well,

59:56

okay, this is a good segue because I want to ex-

59:58

we've been spending a lot of time time talking

1:00:00

about, I guess, the emotions

1:00:02

and the feelings that are nobody's favorite emotions

1:00:04

and feelings. You know, the trauma, the jealousy,

1:00:06

the panic, the anger, the grief, the sadness.

1:00:09

But within the spectrum, there's

1:00:11

also these really wonderful emotions,

1:00:14

things like pleasure and care

1:00:16

and safety. And I

1:00:18

want to spend some time talking about

1:00:20

the whole sensational whirlwind

1:00:23

that is also new

1:00:25

relationship energy, because

1:00:27

this is also something that can

1:00:29

show up that can be maybe

1:00:31

dare I say destabilizing and dysregulating

1:00:34

at times. And so I want

1:00:36

to hear your thoughts also about

1:00:39

working through those sensations. Thanks

1:00:42

for bringing that up too, because I

1:00:44

feel like so far we've made this

1:00:46

work sound really difficult. And also

1:00:48

this work is of course profound and life

1:00:50

changing, but it's so

1:00:53

much more enjoyable than people expect doing

1:00:55

this work through the body and through

1:00:57

movement. There's just this freedom and lightness

1:00:59

and openness that people experience in

1:01:01

their bodies for the first time. So I wanted

1:01:03

to mention that. And then

1:01:06

going back to NRE, yes,

1:01:08

destabilizing I think is the word that you

1:01:10

used. It's such

1:01:13

a unique sensation. It's so exciting,

1:01:15

but often a dysregulating experience.

1:01:18

Dopamine is surging, serotonin is

1:01:20

dropping, and this is happening

1:01:22

at the same time and it rains in bodies and it's

1:01:24

like, we want more but we don't have enough. And

1:01:28

it can feel so overwhelming,

1:01:30

so powerful that it often feels like

1:01:33

we have to do something about it, like

1:01:36

a feeling so strongly. I have to do something about it.

1:01:38

I have to tell my partner a thousand

1:01:40

times in a row that I love them. I have to

1:01:42

move across the country to go live right

1:01:44

next to them. It's like all these things that you're

1:01:47

not supposed to do in NRE. And I experienced this

1:01:49

too. It's like the feelings in

1:01:51

my body were so intense

1:01:53

and have been so intense. It's like I

1:01:55

have to do something. But

1:01:58

again, if we come back to the notion that that

1:02:01

these are uncomfortable or

1:02:03

overwhelming sensations happening in

1:02:05

the body, then we can work with them

1:02:07

without making real life

1:02:09

rash decisions. Like we

1:02:11

can take action in our bodies without actually taking

1:02:14

an action we might regret in

1:02:16

the real world. And I find

1:02:18

it helpful for myself to acknowledge that I

1:02:20

don't have to do anything about it. Like

1:02:23

I can feel it and be with

1:02:25

it. When

1:02:28

that's not enough, then I can just follow what my

1:02:30

body needs sometimes. I can channel that

1:02:32

surge of energy into movement or

1:02:35

a workout or I might

1:02:37

go for a relaxing hike for something a little

1:02:39

bit more gentle. So

1:02:41

it can be a little bit like

1:02:44

discharging discomfort around the new relationship energy,

1:02:47

which can help us enjoy and harness the

1:02:49

excitement and the pleasure without being too overwhelmed

1:02:51

by it. Yeah, I

1:02:53

really feel like you hit the nail on the head that

1:02:55

sounds like I have to do something about

1:02:58

it. You know, there's not only there's so

1:03:00

much energy, but there's also this discomfort, like

1:03:03

this kind of tickling discomfort underneath it that

1:03:05

pushes us into making some

1:03:07

kind of action, whether it's small actions, like

1:03:10

I'm going to text them a billion times

1:03:12

or those big actions, like I'm going to

1:03:14

completely upend the structure of my life

1:03:16

right now. And I'm

1:03:18

realizing again to tie it back to some

1:03:20

of the cultural messaging that I was talking about

1:03:23

earlier, something that I see

1:03:25

sometimes when I see people struggle

1:03:27

with not doing something,

1:03:29

right? Like when people struggle with just

1:03:32

sitting through it or, oh, I'm just going to move through

1:03:34

it or I'm just going to take an action with my

1:03:36

body, but not necessarily out in the real world that

1:03:40

I think we get this also this

1:03:42

cultural sense of urgency around relationship

1:03:45

formation. I

1:03:47

think especially from our more traditional monogamous culture,

1:03:49

when we're first falling in love with

1:03:51

someone or first attracted to

1:03:53

someone or first interested in someone, there is

1:03:57

this received urgency around like, well, you're

1:03:59

better. better get that shit on lock

1:04:01

right away, right? You better lock them

1:04:04

down before they get pulled

1:04:07

away by someone else before they get

1:04:09

interested in someone or something else. And

1:04:12

so I find that's often in conflict

1:04:15

within people, right? That again, cognitively they can

1:04:17

be like, I know it's not a good time for me

1:04:19

to move across the country for this person. I know

1:04:21

it's probably too early for me to say, I love you

1:04:23

to this person, but there's this deeper sense of like, but if

1:04:25

I don't, something terrible is going to happen.

1:04:27

Like if I don't, I'm going

1:04:29

to lose them in some way. Or if I

1:04:32

don't, they're going to think that I'm horrible or

1:04:34

something like that. So I find that that's often

1:04:36

a flavor that people are having to sit with

1:04:38

in the midst of all of this. I'm

1:04:42

laughing because I've just been through all of it.

1:04:44

So I'm laughing at myself, but what

1:04:46

you're really speaking to is like control. Oh,

1:04:49

I love control. It's my favorite thing. Oh yeah. Like

1:04:51

I have to control the pace or the intensity or

1:04:53

the flow of this relationship. Yeah,

1:04:58

I love it too because it helps

1:05:01

me feel a sense of control in

1:05:04

my body. Like I'm so uncomfortable with

1:05:06

these feelings that if I can control

1:05:08

something about the situation, I can change

1:05:10

the way I'm feeling inside. But

1:05:13

actually we don't really have that much control

1:05:15

over our relationships. I think when we really

1:05:17

think about it, it

1:05:19

doesn't help to try to rush or force or

1:05:21

pressure anything, at least in

1:05:23

my experience, I've found that to be true.

1:05:26

And it really does come down to I

1:05:29

need to control this discomfort or these sensations

1:05:32

that I don't want to be feeling. So

1:05:34

if I change the situation, it changes.

1:05:37

It can change that up, right? Like if

1:05:39

I get my new partner to commit

1:05:42

to something that gives

1:05:44

me security, there's nothing wrong with that. Like there's nothing

1:05:46

wrong with asking for what you need and

1:05:48

your partner may very well give it to you and

1:05:51

that's great. I

1:05:53

think it's a great question

1:05:56

to ask ourselves,

1:05:58

what's our intention? here

1:06:01

and is it because I'm trying

1:06:03

to regulate my emotions? Would it

1:06:05

look different if I regulated my emotions you

1:06:08

know more so as a baseline and then

1:06:10

ask for what I needed? I'm kind

1:06:14

of stumbling upon saying this because I don't want

1:06:16

to I don't want it to sound

1:06:18

like it's a bad thing to need validation or to

1:06:21

need a certain level of commitment and those are all

1:06:23

such normal things that even the most secure

1:06:26

people want validation and and need

1:06:28

it to an extent but

1:06:30

this is where the opportunity

1:06:32

lies for more self-security

1:06:35

is like if you

1:06:37

can play and I like the word

1:06:39

play and be curious about how

1:06:41

much can I expand

1:06:45

my ability to be in

1:06:47

the discomfort and how

1:06:49

might that change what I'm wanting or asking

1:06:51

like sometimes I think I want things like

1:06:53

I'm still figuring this out in a it's

1:06:56

not even that new of a relationship

1:06:58

but it's very slow forming relationship where

1:07:00

I'm like I think that

1:07:02

I want more like I'm convinced that I want

1:07:04

more but do I and

1:07:07

every time I'm not even asking for more

1:07:09

like I'm playing with just completely surrendering

1:07:11

to the flow of it just

1:07:14

so not my my

1:07:16

usual things like

1:07:18

this space opens up for me

1:07:20

to heal even more and gain

1:07:22

even more security and yeah

1:07:24

I might decide at one point if it doesn't

1:07:26

progress a certain way or shift a certain way

1:07:28

that it's not for me and that's totally okay

1:07:31

but right now it's like so fulfilling

1:07:33

and healing in itself and that's

1:07:35

another point that I want to make is like there

1:07:38

is a lot of talk

1:07:40

and content on social

1:07:42

media that's like you have to be healed in

1:07:44

yourself before you can be in a relationship actually

1:07:47

a lot of healing happens through relationships

1:07:49

and if we do that in a

1:07:51

healthy way and not just

1:07:53

relying on the relationship to be healing

1:07:55

for us then I call BS on it

1:07:58

yeah it's funny I'm I

1:08:00

think that for some reason,

1:08:03

I don't think that I tend to fall

1:08:05

victim to the like, oh, I have to

1:08:07

be 100% healed or I need to completely

1:08:09

love myself before I can love anybody else.

1:08:12

And yet I still, every time I

1:08:14

get into another relationship, I'm

1:08:17

always surprised for some reason that

1:08:19

I'm still learning things. Like I

1:08:21

think I still am just

1:08:23

like, I thought I already knew

1:08:25

everything. I thought I already knew

1:08:27

how this all works. Like, when am I

1:08:29

going to reach the point where I've just, I've already

1:08:32

learned all the things and then I can go into

1:08:34

a relationship just knowing I've learned all my lessons and

1:08:36

I don't need to learn anymore. So I think that's

1:08:38

a weird kind of meta level lesson that I'm still

1:08:40

working through myself. Resonate

1:08:43

hard with that. But also like

1:08:45

that would kind of be boring, right? Like if we

1:08:47

knew all the things we've done. It's

1:08:49

so true. It's so true. It's

1:08:52

so true. All right. So we're drawing this conversation to

1:08:54

a close, but the very last thing is you mentioned

1:08:56

doing some retreat work earlier and I'm super

1:08:58

excited that you and I are going

1:09:00

to be co-leading a retreat together in

1:09:02

Costa Rica in April of four polyamorous

1:09:05

folks. So why don't you share

1:09:07

a little bit more about what that's about where

1:09:09

people can find more information about that. Yes.

1:09:12

So I am super excited to

1:09:14

do this too, by the way. It's in

1:09:17

a nutshell, so much of what we talked

1:09:19

about, you know, if you've listened

1:09:21

to this episode and you're resonating with,

1:09:23

wow, yes, I know all the things.

1:09:25

I've got the understanding

1:09:27

of what I need to do differently, how

1:09:29

I want to enhance my relationships

1:09:33

that really essentially my self-security

1:09:36

and being able

1:09:38

to regulate through these very normal

1:09:40

challenges in namanagami. But my body

1:09:42

isn't on board, but my body keeps overreacting,

1:09:45

but I'm so overwhelmed by these feelings that

1:09:47

I'm not making any progress. We

1:09:49

will get to work on that for three

1:09:52

nights together in Costa Rica

1:09:54

in this luxurious

1:09:57

space and I'm not like I'm saying luxurious.

1:10:00

curious because that's a very intentional part

1:10:02

of the treat where we really

1:10:04

get to go in a space, a container

1:10:06

where we're taking care of, where

1:10:08

we feel pampered. Our nervous

1:10:10

systems feel safe and

1:10:13

relaxed to really make a lot of

1:10:15

progress in a short period of time. And

1:10:18

besides the intentional sessions that

1:10:20

you and I are going to be

1:10:22

doing, the whole experience

1:10:25

is really curated to become

1:10:27

more safely connected to your

1:10:30

own body and to become

1:10:33

more connected to each

1:10:35

other and your partners and the other

1:10:37

folks on retreat to, you know, with

1:10:39

a chef cooking us food

1:10:41

and the infinity pool and you know,

1:10:43

all that good stuff. I

1:10:46

think there's a lot of, I know from

1:10:48

running retreats in all different capacities that people

1:10:50

have a hard time going to

1:10:52

a weekly session and then going back to their

1:10:54

normal life and it just gets hard to integrate.

1:10:57

But when we take the space

1:10:59

somewhere away from home in

1:11:01

a magical luxurious space, again,

1:11:03

saying luxuries, it creates such

1:11:06

powerful, efficient shifts.

1:11:08

So that's essentially what we're doing. So

1:11:12

if people want to find out more

1:11:14

about that, you can go to multiamory.com/retreat.

1:11:16

Feel free to mention the fact that

1:11:19

you heard about it on the Multiamory

1:11:21

podcast and hopefully you can

1:11:23

join us. And also speaking up, thank

1:11:26

you so much for joining me on the

1:11:28

show to have this conversation today, Orie. This

1:11:30

has been fantastic. I know that we could

1:11:32

geek out about this stuff for many,

1:11:35

many, many, many more hours. But

1:11:37

can you also share with our listeners if

1:11:39

they're more interested in your work specifically where

1:11:41

they can find out more about you and the stuff

1:11:43

that you do? Absolutely. And thank

1:11:46

you for having me on the show.

1:11:48

You can all find me on

1:11:50

my website at oriekrugue.com. That's my

1:11:52

name.com. You'll see everything that you

1:11:54

are potentially interested on on

1:11:57

there. So that is the

1:11:59

episode for today. the question that

1:12:01

I'm going to be posting on our

1:12:03

Instagram stories this week, I want to

1:12:05

hear from you listeners. When

1:12:07

are the moments when you notice that your

1:12:09

brain and your body are disconnected? When are

1:12:11

the moments that you notice your brain and

1:12:14

your body are not on the same page?

1:12:16

And remember that these are anonymous,

1:12:18

so feel free to share as much

1:12:20

as you like or at least as

1:12:22

much as can fit into the limited

1:12:24

character space on the Instagram question. So

1:12:26

go check that out on our Instagram stories. Also

1:12:29

the best place to share your thoughts about

1:12:31

this episode with other listeners is in the

1:12:33

episode discussion channel in our Discord server or

1:12:36

you can post about it in our private

1:12:38

Facebook group. You can get access to these

1:12:40

groups and join our exclusive community by going

1:12:42

to multiamory.com join. In addition

1:12:44

you can share with us publicly on

1:12:46

Twitter, Facebook, Instagram or TikTok. Multiamory

1:12:49

is created and produced by Jace

1:12:51

Lindgren, Emily Matlack and me Dedeker

1:12:53

Winston. Our production assistants are Rachel

1:12:55

Chenowerk and Carson Collins. Our theme

1:12:57

song is Formed by No I

1:13:00

Did by Josh and Onnand from

1:13:02

the Frostill Cave EP. The full

1:13:04

transcript is available on this episode's

1:13:06

page on multiamory.com.