0:00

Hello, multi-amory listeners. This

0:02

is Dedeker. Coming

0:04

up in April of this year,

0:06

myself, along with dance and movement

0:08

therapist, Orit Krug, will be co-leading

0:11

a somatic retreat for polyamorous folks

0:13

in Costa Rica. If

0:15

you've been feeling like your brain

0:18

is on board with nomenogamy,

0:20

but your emotions and your feelings are

0:22

having a hard time catching up, if

0:25

you've been struggling to access feelings

0:27

of joy or safety

0:30

or ease or pleasure, or

0:33

if you're feeling isolated in your

0:35

nomenogamy journey and you just want

0:37

to kick back in a hammock

0:39

or go for a walk in

0:41

nature with other consciously relating polyamorous

0:43

folks, please consider joining us. We

0:46

have space for solo poly individuals,

0:48

for couples, and we do have

0:50

space for at least one triad,

0:53

but this retreat is going to

0:55

be quite small, so it's application

0:57

only. You can go to multiamory.com/retreat

1:00

for more information on applying. And

1:02

for multi-amory listeners, if you mention the

1:05

code multi in your application, you can

1:07

get a discount on the retreat price.

1:09

Again, go to multiamory.com/retreat

1:12

and mention the code

1:14

multi. It's

1:21

important to give your partner space

1:23

if they need it, and sometimes

1:25

that may be what they are most

1:27

wanting in times like this, is that

1:29

they just need a little bit of

1:32

like, I have to process. That also

1:34

means that I potentially am going to

1:36

be less communicative during this time, just

1:38

because I'm working through stuff with a

1:40

therapist or working through stuff on my

1:43

own, or maybe with the family

1:45

members who I've been going through things with,

1:47

and that therefore means that I am going

1:49

to be less communicative with you, but

1:52

ideally you can have that conversation

1:54

with them and sort of

1:56

set up expectations of, okay,

1:58

how long do you need? Or can I

2:00

still check in on a bi-weekly

2:02

basis, for instance, because I really want to

2:05

know that we're still okay and that we're

2:07

still doing well and that you know that

2:09

you were appreciated and cared for from my

2:11

end and that I know that as well

2:14

from your end. Welcome

2:17

to the Multiamory Podcast. I'm

2:20

Jace. I'm Emily. And

2:22

I'm Dedeker. We believe in looking to

2:24

the future of relationships, not

2:26

maintaining the status quo of

2:28

the past. Whether you're monogamous,

2:31

polyamorous, singing, casually

2:33

dating, the refugees do relationships differently.

2:36

You see you. On

2:54

this episode of the Multiamory Podcast, we're

2:56

diving into listener questions. We'll be talking

2:58

about what happens when just one relationship

3:00

in a triad has to end. Things

3:03

like how to support a long-distance partner,

3:05

how to build confidence when you've been

3:07

a late bloomer when it comes to

3:09

sex and relationships, and what to do

3:12

when a partner will not acknowledge their

3:14

own jealousy. A lot of great topics.

3:16

We had so many amazing question submissions.

3:19

We're so excited for that. If

3:21

you're interested in learning more about our

3:23

fundamental communication tools that we reference all

3:26

the time on this show and in

3:28

the answers to these questions, you can

3:30

check out our book Multiamory Essential Tools

3:32

for Modern Relationships, which covers some of

3:34

our most used communication tools for all

3:37

types of relationships. You can

3:39

find links to buy it at

3:41

multiamory.com/book or wherever fine books

3:43

are sold. Even places that sell mediocre

3:45

books probably carry it. Alternatively,

3:48

the first nine episodes of this podcast

3:50

also cover some of our most widely

3:53

used and shared communication tools if you'd

3:55

rather check it out there. I

3:57

pulled together the questions for this episode and I'm really

3:59

excited. So we have some changes on the

4:01

horizon for how we're going to be doing listener

4:03

Q&As and it's going to be great. Don't be

4:06

scared. The changes are going to be awesome. But

4:08

one of those changes is we did

4:11

create a slightly more private portal for

4:13

getting questions from our Patreon subscribers and

4:15

people always submitted really great questions. But

4:18

I do think kind of having that

4:20

extra layer where people are not submitting on like

4:22

a comment forum for instance in

4:24

our Facebook group or in the Discord, I

4:26

think people are just like really vulnerable about

4:28

what was going on for them. And basically

4:30

we have this huge log now of just

4:33

like so many great questions that I'm

4:36

extra excited for us to be diving into not

4:38

just in this episode but in our future listener

4:40

Q&A episodes as well. I see

4:42

ahead here some really great sign off names

4:44

that people have given to themselves. People should

4:46

know that part of us setting

4:48

up this question submission portal is

4:51

that now you have to submit

4:53

a moniker of some kind.

4:55

You have to submit either. At the very

4:57

least a pseudonym or you have to submit

5:00

some kind of alliterative sign off name. Amazing.

5:03

So those have been fantastic and I'm really excited to

5:05

share these with everybody. Excellent.

5:08

And just a quick disclaimer before we

5:10

get started here, we are now in

5:12

our 10th year of studying healthy relationship

5:15

communication. Wow. I know. Amazing.

5:18

When are we going to get that PhD? Hopefully it's

5:20

coming someday. They'll just give it to us because

5:22

we've been doing so much work. At

5:24

least one PhD that all three of us can share. Indeed.

5:28

There you go without actually having to go to school for it.

5:31

So yes, we really have spent a

5:33

lot of time studying healthy relationship communication

5:35

but we aren't mind readers yet and

5:37

our advice is just based solely on

5:39

the limited information that we have that

5:41

you gave us in these questions. So

5:43

please just take what we say with

5:45

a grain of salt. Everybody's

5:47

situation is unique. So of course, we

5:49

encourage you to use your own

5:51

judgment, seek professional help if needed. Ultimately,

5:53

you're the only true expert on your own

5:55

life and whether or not you care about

5:58

what us three chuckleheads have to say. say

6:00

about your life and situation, your feelings and your

6:02

decisions are your own. And

6:04

while I've tried to include as much information

6:06

as possible from the questions that people submitted,

6:09

some of them have been edited for time

6:11

and for clarity. It's so funny

6:13

you were talking about giving us our honorary

6:15

PhD. I was just watching... Not a real

6:17

one. Not an honorary one. Yeah, sorry. Like

6:20

a real one. A real one. Yeah. So I was

6:22

just watching this video that was about the history of

6:24

the blue ID, which

6:26

took like decades to make.

6:28

They had made green and they'd made

6:30

red, but blue was really, really hard

6:32

just from like an engineering standpoint. And

6:34

it was this guy named Shuji

6:37

Nakamura, a Japanese inventor

6:39

or an engineer who

6:41

invented it. And one of

6:43

his goals while he was pursuing it was

6:45

that he wanted to get his PhD because

6:48

he didn't have one. And at the time,

6:50

you could get a PhD in Japan by

6:52

having four academic papers published. And that was

6:54

his path that in his research for making

6:56

the blue LED he published. I mean, he's

6:59

now published like 937 papers or something. Whoa.

7:03

Okay. Like does 400 podcast episodes count? Like what's

7:05

the ratio of 400 podcast episodes? Like

7:11

how many academic papers does that equate

7:13

to? If anyone knows that conversion, let

7:15

us know. At least four.

7:17

I would think so. There you go. I

7:19

would think so. The amount of work and reading involved. Yeah. Yeah. You

7:22

did. I think unfortunately you can't get a

7:24

PhD that way anymore in Japan, but at

7:26

least back in, you know, whenever he did

7:29

that in the what, 80s, I guess, something

7:31

like that. Anyway, with that,

7:33

let's get to these questions. All

7:35

right. Question number one. Can

7:38

you end one relationship of

7:40

a triad without exploding everything?

7:43

Everything in the world. All right. Here's the full

7:45

version of the question to get some details. I

7:48

am currently in a triad relationship

7:51

with Taylor and Charlie. These are

7:53

pseudonyms. It formed

7:55

organically and has been really wonderful for some

7:57

time. We have done a good job.

8:00

fostering the four different independent relationships,

8:02

mine and Charlie's, mine and Taylor's,

8:04

Taylor's and Charlie's and the three

8:06

of us all together. However,

8:08

I am beginning to suspect

8:10

that my relationship with Taylor has run

8:13

its course. This is sad, but

8:15

I feel grateful for the time we spent together

8:17

and just thinking that our romantic chemistry

8:19

has fizzled in a way that isn't

8:21

working for us. We're bumping

8:24

into some perpetual problems in the ways

8:26

we deal with conflict that I think

8:28

are ultimately incompatible for me in

8:31

a long-term relationship. I'm happy

8:33

to and even want to keep Taylor in my

8:35

life in some capacity and I

8:37

also would like to continue dating Charlie. I

8:40

desperately don't want to put Charlie in the middle or

8:43

make them feel like they have to choose. I

8:45

am left wondering if I should keep dating

8:48

Taylor and working on our relationship for the

8:50

sake of everyone's happiness. Ultimately,

8:52

I'm looking for advice on how to

8:54

navigate ending one relationship in a triad

8:57

without imploding everything. Is it even possible?

9:00

And this is from Trouble in Triad Land.

9:02

Well done on the name. Good job. Yeah.

9:04

They got the assignment. Yeah. I

9:07

think this is something that the three

9:09

of us have actually done and did

9:11

I think fairly well. I've done it

9:13

in multiple triads. Really? More than one?

9:15

Back in the day. Yes. Yeah. That's

9:18

impressive. I guess I ended

9:20

my relationship with both of you

9:22

but then was also able to

9:24

continue on in a relationship

9:26

in a different way with both of you and

9:29

the two of you ended up

9:31

staying together while ending a relationship with

9:33

me and I think like

9:35

intentionality as always is the name

9:37

of the game here. In terms

9:40

of breaking up, so often people

9:42

don't really think about if

9:44

I am going to stay friends with this

9:46

person, what is the best practices that I

9:49

should be employing in order to do that

9:52

and that may include things like, yeah,

9:54

I need to take time away. I

9:57

need to make sure that

9:59

we have a significant amount of time

10:01

for healing before we jump back into

10:03

working on being friends. But

10:05

I also think that some of those things

10:08

potentially should be talked about maybe

10:10

in the midst of the

10:12

ending of a relationship in

10:14

those transitionary moments because if

10:16

they're not, then I do think

10:18

that often a person may end

10:20

and then the relationship goes away

10:22

and maybe resentment is there

10:25

and challenge is there and then you

10:27

really never end up coming back together

10:29

in some capacity that would evolve into

10:31

a friendship. So I think intentionality if

10:34

you can right from the

10:36

get-go is really important. It

10:38

sounds to me like this person first

10:41

of all has a lot of clarity

10:43

about the ecosystem of the

10:45

relationship and relationships which is great

10:47

and it also sounds like they've done

10:50

a fair amount of work getting

10:52

clear on their reasons why

10:55

they think this particular

10:57

relationship isn't working which

11:00

I think is great doing that kind

11:02

of work. And I do think

11:04

that it is really important to do

11:06

that work especially in a triad relationship of

11:09

getting really clear on like what belongs

11:11

to which relationship, what's the stuff where

11:13

like I'm bumping up against problems with

11:15

this particular person, what's just my own

11:17

stuff, am I projecting in some situation,

11:20

is there something going on in another

11:22

relationship that's affecting me. So

11:24

I think getting really clear on like

11:26

the specific behavior that's giving you pause

11:28

about this particular connection I think is

11:31

great and that sets you

11:33

up to have a clearer runway for

11:35

sitting down specifically with this

11:37

person to talk about these

11:39

are things that I'm noticing and I don't

11:41

think I can be in a relationship in this

11:44

particular capacity. This is what I

11:46

would like for our relationship moving forward. This

11:48

is what I don't want to have happen

11:50

anymore and this is what I would like

11:52

when I think about like the

11:54

triad relationship. You know this is what I would

11:56

like when I think about our time together and

11:59

what that with this relationship

12:01

changing. So there's that

12:03

bringing in that intentionality that Emily was talking

12:05

about. And of course, you could

12:07

be very intentional, be very clear about this

12:09

is what I want for our relationship, this

12:11

is what I don't want. There's a risk

12:13

it could still implode because feelings come up,

12:15

breakups are hard and the person that you're

12:18

breaking up with could take it very

12:20

smoothly and very well or they could

12:22

have a really hard time with it or they

12:24

could be fine with your relationship ending but then seeing

12:26

you in a relationship with this other partner they're

12:29

with could be too much, could be challenging,

12:31

right? So I think yeah, you

12:33

can do everything possible to be intentional and

12:35

be very clear in your communication

12:37

and also understand that there's going to

12:39

be room for some feelings to come

12:41

up and that may involve things like

12:43

needing some time away or needing some time

12:46

where you're not in contact or maybe needing

12:49

some time where they're not around your relationship

12:51

with their other partner potentially. Like there's definitely

12:53

going to be ripples for

12:55

sure. Yeah, a couple of

12:57

things that keep coming back to again

13:00

in thinking about various relationships I've

13:02

had that have de-escalated

13:04

or changed in some way

13:07

that I do think

13:09

there's this balance we need

13:11

to strike between giving ourselves

13:13

some of that space to

13:15

heal and redo our thinking

13:17

about that relationship. But I

13:20

think there's also this part

13:22

where we kind of need to force ourselves

13:24

to keep that relationship alive and re-navigate it.

13:26

It's like you don't want to go too

13:28

far on one extreme or the other.

13:30

You know, like if you were living together and

13:32

together in front of each other all the time

13:34

that's maybe too much. But if

13:36

it's like I need some space and time

13:38

away and then you never really actively

13:41

try to maintain that relationship if that is

13:43

actually what you want, right? And you're not

13:45

just doing that because you think oh that's

13:47

what evolved poly people do is they

13:49

stay friends afterward. Maybe you don't want that. But in

13:52

this case, it sounds like you do. And

13:54

so that is something I will say that

13:56

for us having this podcast while we're

13:58

working together, we're working We were going through that,

14:01

the breaking up and transition in our relationship

14:03

between the three of us was

14:06

both good and bad. And

14:08

I think it helped us thread

14:10

that needle though, right? Where it

14:12

was like having to talk about

14:14

communication and relationships altogether was hard

14:16

and there were some emotional days

14:18

doing that, but also it kept

14:21

us from just easily kind of drifting apart and

14:23

just sort of falling out of each other's lives.

14:25

And in our case, it ended up with something

14:27

that I think is even closer and better than

14:29

it had started with, but it took a while

14:32

and kind of having a commitment to that regular

14:34

time together. In our case, in the form of

14:36

a podcast, it helped us do that, I think.

14:39

Yeah, I want to point out that this

14:41

person is saying I don't want to put

14:43

Charlie, the part of

14:46

the triad that is going to still be

14:48

in a romantic capacity, they

14:50

don't want to put Charlie in the middle. And

14:53

I think that because you've set

14:55

up really good established relationships, I

14:58

guess with each like sector of

15:00

the triad that hopefully that will

15:02

make it so that Charlie doesn't

15:04

end up in the middle of this whole thing.

15:07

But again, that intentionality needs to be

15:09

there and you need to make sure

15:11

that there is no pitting against happening

15:14

ideally, especially on your end. Clearly you can't

15:16

do anything about what the other person is

15:19

going to say or feel or do, but

15:22

in terms of on your end, really

15:24

make sure that you're not

15:26

trying to place them in the middle of

15:28

the situation, Charlie in the middle of the

15:30

situation. I just really like calling

15:32

different relationships in the triad sectors.

15:35

It feels much more sci-fi. I was

15:37

trying to figure out an elegant way

15:39

of putting it, but like, yeah, because

15:42

it's all the different points of

15:44

the triangle, but then also the relationship is

15:46

the triangle in general. So yeah,

15:48

all of those different points, it sounds

15:50

like you've done a good job like

15:52

maintaining that specific relationship. And

15:54

I think that that'll help you moving

15:57

forward in terms of a decoupling or

15:59

a transitionary period. But one other

16:01

thing I wanted to add to that is

16:03

something that I think we

16:05

just hadn't gotten into as far when

16:08

this was going on for us, what?

16:10

Two hundred years ago? A hundred years ago? Yeah.

16:13

Two hundred years ago? A thousand years ago, yes.

16:15

Is looking at it from a little

16:18

bit more of a relationship anarchy

16:21

smorgasbord kind of perspective? Good

16:24

point. Mm-hmm. And I

16:26

think that when it comes to a breakup

16:28

and thinking of it that way and calling

16:30

it that, it brings with it a lot

16:32

of other emotions, right? There's some

16:34

pride, there's some feeling of like, well, I should

16:36

be a little sad or I should be a

16:39

little bit mad. And it's not to

16:41

say that that will go away, but

16:43

it might just give you some

16:45

more flexible ways to go about that conversation,

16:47

to say it's not like I want to

16:50

break up, break up, but maybe I just want to

16:52

change these aspects. And I think

16:54

it'll still be a hard conversation. I don't

16:56

think it's a magic wand that just makes

16:59

de-escalating easy, but

17:01

it just might give you some

17:03

other ways to have that conversation

17:05

that can hopefully avoid some of

17:07

those feelings of kind of the hurt,

17:09

pride, and maybe embarrassment that can go

17:11

along with breakup and calling it that.

17:14

Yeah, kind of maybe come to

17:17

the breakup talk or this change in terms

17:19

of what it is that your relationship is

17:21

going to look like talk and

17:23

say like, hey, these are the parts of the relationship

17:25

that I really love. These are the

17:28

things that I think that we do really well together. But

17:30

there are also things that I think

17:32

that we don't do as well together and that

17:35

maybe I want to change or maybe I don't

17:37

want to have in my life anymore in a

17:39

relationship with you. Thank you so

17:41

much for the question, Trouble in Triadland.

17:44

We wish you the best of luck, really. I

17:46

hope that this works out. It seems like you've

17:48

got a lot going for you, which is awesome.

17:50

And let us know how it goes and know

17:53

that you have an amazing

17:55

supportive community with you in our

17:57

Patreon Facebook group and Discord group.

18:00

group that we have for our

18:02

patrons. All of the questions for

18:04

today come from people in our

18:06

patron group, which is an amazing

18:08

supportive community. This is on my

18:10

mind right now because we just

18:12

recently did one of our monthly

18:14

video processing sharing groups, which are

18:16

fantastic. We have those at our

18:18

$9 tier where you get these

18:20

monthly video calls and it's just

18:23

already having a cool community is great.

18:25

And then getting to have this place

18:27

where you can share in a

18:29

face-to-face way and support other people. What I

18:32

love about it actually is that in addition

18:34

to all the amazing sharing, we have a

18:36

lot of people who show up and

18:39

don't even come with anything they themselves want

18:41

to work through, but they just like to

18:43

be there to hear what's going

18:45

on and offer support and encouragement to other

18:47

people. And they've been coming every

18:49

month for years in some cases. And it's just

18:52

so cool getting to show up, see

18:54

those familiar faces and see how supportive everyone

18:56

is. It's really, really amazing. If you'd like

18:58

to join that and you're not already a

19:00

patron, you can go to patreon.com

19:03

slash multiamory and check out our

19:05

different tiers to join there. And

19:07

we're going to take a quick break right now to

19:10

talk about some ways that you can support this show

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by checking out our sponsors. We're

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very selective in the sponsors that we

19:16

pick for this show. And also, it's

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so important to us that the main

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out there is available to everybody in

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the world for free. And one of

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the ways that we do that is by having

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if you could please take a moment, listen

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to the ads. And if any seem interesting to

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you, use our links and promo codes. Those will

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also be in the description because that does directly

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help support our show. This

19:45

show is sponsored by BetterHelp. I

19:47

recently had a client of mine ask me, how do

19:50

you know what's important in life? Like how do you

19:52

decide how to spend your time? And my very wise

19:55

response was, I don't know. I haven't figured that

19:57

out myself. Why are you asking me? A

20:00

lot of us spend our lives wishing we

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had more time first of all, but of

20:04

course that does beg the question, time for

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what? If your time was unlimited, how would

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you use it? It is really

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important to know what is actually important to

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you, how do you prioritize things in life?

20:16

And therapy can help you find out what matters

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to you so that you can do more of

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it. I recently jumped back into

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therapy after going through a breakup

20:24

and it's just so, nice to

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have somebody in your corner when

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you're going through a really hard

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change, a really big monumental moment

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22:57

to the next question, which is. How

23:00

do you support a partner who is

23:02

long distance. My. Comment partner

23:04

prince they them. Has.

23:06

Had several destabilizing events happen over

23:08

the past few months, from family

23:10

stuff to sickness to a beloved

23:12

pet time. They have become

23:15

a bit less communicative, slush more

23:17

tired lately. And I am

23:19

wondering if there's a way I

23:21

can still support them despite are

23:24

long Distance signed longingly Long Distance

23:26

L L Other One is our

23:28

favorite. So yeah, I'll go

23:31

with the low hanging fruit. Answer

23:33

which is the you could just

23:35

straight up. Asked if there's a

23:38

way that they would prefer to be

23:40

supported at this time. But separate

23:42

from that, eat of course the direct

23:44

communication. The direct asking can be really

23:46

helpful and some people will respond to

23:49

that very well. But. For

23:51

other people who are going through

23:53

a lot of shit. That.

23:56

Could be overwhelming. It

23:58

could be hard to even. Think of

24:00

what it is that they need right now or

24:02

what it is that would be helpful or they

24:04

may not feel comfortable. Asking.

24:06

Or may not feel like they can

24:09

really ask. So. I'm a

24:11

big fan of coordinating with this

24:13

person, but coming with some suggestions

24:16

of your own like. Taking some

24:18

of that mental labor off of their plate. And.

24:20

Thinking about the ways that you are willing to

24:22

offer to support them so it could be something

24:25

like hey I was thinking. I would

24:27

really love. To have some groceries

24:29

delivered to your place? Would you

24:31

like that? Can we coordinate that

24:33

or what? If I like hired someone to

24:36

come clean your house or clean your apartments

24:38

as a one off or it could be

24:40

hey, I want to send you this really

24:42

funny book that I really like and maybe

24:44

we can talk about it. Or hey, like

24:46

what if we set up a date to

24:48

watch a movie together with a comfort movie

24:50

of your choice that maybe I haven't seen

24:52

and will sit and watch it together? So

24:54

I do think that there's a piece their

24:56

of taking some of that decision making off

24:59

of their plates. A and. Sometimes.

25:01

Even if they don't know, maybe this is really

25:03

resonate with the things that you've suggested that could.

25:06

Get them to counter. Offer with I

25:08

don't know if I if I need

25:10

groceries delivered. But it would be helpful as he did.

25:12

Yadda yadda yadda right? Or could be

25:14

helpful if he did x y or

25:17

z aim of the yeah those sort

25:19

of acts of service or gift to

25:21

oriented ideas I think. a really lovely

25:23

and helpful. It's really nice I think

25:25

to just do something out of the

25:27

blue for a partner when they're least

25:29

expecting oats that can feel just like

25:31

hey, I'm being notice and being loved.

25:33

And this moment, even though I didn't

25:36

particularly ask for ads. So.

25:38

I love that idea I think. Also,

25:40

it's important to give your partner space

25:42

as they need it's and sometimes that

25:45

may be what they are most wanting

25:47

in times like this is that they

25:49

just need a little bit of like

25:52

I I have to process And that

25:54

also means that I have potentially I'm

25:56

going to be less communicative during this

25:58

time just because. I'm working through

26:00

stuff with a therapist or working through stuff

26:03

on my own or maybe with the family

26:05

members who I've been going through things with

26:07

and that therefore means that I am going

26:09

to be less communicative with you. But

26:12

ideally you can have that conversation

26:14

with them and sort of

26:16

set up expectations of okay,

26:18

how long do you need or can I

26:21

still check in on a bi-weekly

26:23

basis for instance because I really want to

26:25

know that we're still okay and that we're

26:27

still doing well and that you know that

26:29

you were appreciated and cared for

26:31

from my end and that I know that

26:33

as well from your end. I

26:36

think that's such a good point to bring up because

26:39

there can be that situation where if

26:41

I'm feeling just so overwhelmed with stuff

26:43

going on in my life, it could

26:45

just even be busyness,

26:47

but especially if there's a lot of emotional stuff

26:50

going on and I'm just having a hard time. If I'm

26:53

kind of retreating into myself a

26:55

little bit to process and make it through

26:57

that and I feel like my

27:00

partner in wanting to help me

27:02

kind of becomes another obligation or

27:04

another burden. I have to convince

27:07

them that I'm happy enough that I like being

27:09

with them like that that can start to feel

27:11

like a chore even though on both

27:13

sides, it's coming from a loving place of caring

27:15

for each other. So I just

27:17

want to highlight I especially love what you

27:20

said Emily about setting up an expectation though.

27:23

So it's not just like okay, I guess I'll just let

27:25

you drift away and not know what's going on but say

27:27

hey what if we checked

27:29

in in a week? Would that be

27:31

better or even just asking like Dedeker

27:33

said giving some options? But this

27:35

time it could be hey, you know I'd

27:38

love to chat with you a little bit each

27:40

day to see how you're doing but like no

27:42

pressure to do that if you

27:44

don't want or maybe we should just

27:46

talk once a week so that you have time

27:48

I don't want to get in your way or

27:50

maybe every other week to kind of show them

27:53

hey, these are some options of things that we could

27:55

do for that to again take

27:57

away some of that decision-making for them.

28:00

let them kind of pick or say, oh

28:02

no, actually, I didn't have a problem. I think it's

28:04

great what we're doing. But to kind of give them

28:06

a way to talk about that more

28:08

easily. Yeah. I think creating

28:10

relationships where you and your partner

28:12

feel safe enough to say

28:14

to each other, hey, I actually need a

28:16

little bit of space in this moment is

28:18

really powerful and really wonderful. And

28:21

that's something that so often in relationships, we

28:23

take that for granted our space and our

28:25

time because it's just kind of assumed that

28:27

if you have the time, you're going to

28:30

be spending it with a partner or if

28:32

you have multiple partners, then trying to

28:35

fill your time with them, all of

28:37

your time with them in some form

28:39

or fashion. And so I do think

28:41

if you can create a relationship where

28:43

you're able to say, hey, I feel

28:45

like we've been talking a lot recently

28:47

or I feel really overwhelmed with

28:49

X, Y, and Z thing, I just

28:51

need a little bit of space. And for that

28:54

to be okay, that's really powerful and

28:56

really wonderful. And we'll enable the two of you to

28:58

come back together when you're feeling good. Well,

29:00

thank you. Longingly long distance. Best of

29:03

luck with this. And good for you

29:05

for having the heart that really wants

29:07

to support someone that you love and

29:09

that you care about who's going through a difficult time. Moving

29:12

on to our next question. Do

29:15

you have ideas for building confidence

29:17

as a late bloomer sexually and

29:20

in relationships? I grew up

29:22

in a culty religion and never had any sexual experiences

29:24

until I got married at age 23. I'm now divorced

29:26

at 29, and

29:29

I'm dating casually for the first time. I

29:31

sometimes get in my head and feel inadequate

29:33

compared to people I date or have sexual

29:36

experiences with due to my lack of quote

29:38

unquote experience, or even just confidence. I'm

29:40

learning things at almost 30 that many people learned

29:43

in their teens or early twenties. Most

29:45

of the people I'm going out with have

29:47

been sexually active since their teens. And while

29:49

I've been able to do lots of reading

29:51

and introspection, it's still hard when I find

29:53

myself feeling like I lack the resources to

29:55

have happy and successful relationships. As a guy,

29:57

part of this probably also has to do.

30:00

with patriarchal expectations of men to

30:02

quote, take charge in these situations, which

30:04

I'm not super comfortable doing. I

30:07

feel like my feelings of inadequacy are impeding

30:09

this exploratory stage of my life. Do

30:11

you have any tips for getting out of my

30:13

head and just enjoying the exploration?" Now

30:15

that was sent in by Tony Pizza, which

30:18

is a name we will accept. Now

30:20

it doesn't have to be about your location,

30:23

it doesn't have to be about your situation,

30:25

it doesn't have to be alliterative although we

30:27

love those things, but it does have to be

30:29

delightful. I think maybe that's the only

30:31

baseline requirement and our standards for delightful

30:33

are pretty low, so don't worry about

30:35

that. I'm quite delighted by Tony Pizza.

30:38

For sure. I

30:40

want to have some Tony Pizza tonight. I just

30:42

had some Tony Pizza this morning. Oh nice,

30:44

well done. Everyone wants a slice

30:46

of Tony Pizza, but Tony, let's

30:49

talk about your actual situation though. I

30:52

think I can relate to some of

30:54

this having grown up in a somewhat

30:56

culty religion myself that had a lot

30:58

of emphasis on purity culture where

31:00

me coming to my own sexuality

31:02

and exploring sexuality with others for

31:05

sure felt like it was mired

31:07

in a lot of stuff I

31:09

had to unpack and undo and compared

31:11

to other people my same age definitely

31:13

felt pretty held back. Heck, honestly, to

31:16

this day there are so many films

31:18

I still haven't seen because they came

31:20

out at a time when I was

31:23

in this super intense religious household

31:25

and so there's a whole swaths of pop culture I

31:27

feel like I missed out on. So I

31:29

just want to say that first out the gate that can

31:32

relate and this is difficult and

31:34

there's not a lot of

31:36

people who can necessarily relate to it.

31:39

A little bit tangential here, but

31:41

something I might recommend is

31:44

looking into some support groups

31:46

or communities that may have formed around

31:49

people who either are ex-members of the

31:51

same particular religion or

31:53

just people who have deconverted their religion

31:56

from their religion in general could

31:58

be a helpful space. The a space where

32:00

you can talk about what the graphic. Details of your sex life

32:02

but just getting some support in general from other people

32:04

who are in your same boat who may be missed

32:07

out on some. Developmental. Milestones.

32:09

Could be helpful in general just to feel

32:11

like you're a little bit more seen A

32:13

and maybe have some people who can share

32:15

with you the things that have helped them.

32:18

I'm. Interested to hear what? The

32:20

Patriarchy? What? The representative of the

32:22

patriarchy has to say say is. A

32:25

success. Oh. Boy as

32:27

a card carrying member of the third

32:29

I know a guy or can I

32:31

say I resigned Sera the in somebody

32:33

who has probably been affected by the

32:36

patriarchy in a way that Detica and

32:38

I have. Not just because you are

32:40

a dude. How bad? You.

32:42

Particular flavor yellow. Yell at.

32:45

I do think I would love to hear from

32:47

you Eat in this. This the Oh Tony pizza

32:49

is showing with us that a layer on top

32:51

of this is this expectation that men have to

32:53

take. Charge and sexual or romantic situations after

32:55

know what they want and were expecting that.

32:57

they're going to be the ones who are

32:59

taking the lead at all times. And

33:02

how how's that for? yeah? Caches.

33:05

All. This is hard road because it

33:07

really varies quite a bit depending

33:09

on who you're with, we're dating,

33:12

how you're feeling. I mean something

33:14

that. Comes. Up When

33:16

I do have very frank

33:18

conversations like vulnerable conversations with

33:21

other men about. Saxon.

33:23

And my confidence levels and things like

33:25

that? There's a whole. Range.

33:28

From people who just happen to

33:30

have sound communities and relationships were

33:32

that's not the case where like

33:35

being very submissive if you want

33:37

to put it that way. Is.

33:39

Like this is where I sit in and this is

33:42

what's worked for me, right? This is this is the

33:44

community. our families of the partners I've found you me

33:46

like sexually. Bdsm. Services.

33:49

And. i kind of do aca one

33:51

i think often they're a little tied

33:53

together so not in terms of some

33:56

kind of you know more more intense

33:58

salon dominance of mrs type

34:00

dynamic, but like a little bit of

34:02

that of like, because there's also

34:05

a lot of women out there. Again,

34:07

I'm assuming based on this statement that

34:09

we're talking mostly about heterosexual relationships here,

34:11

that there are a lot of women

34:13

out there who want to be able

34:15

to just say what they want

34:17

and tell you what to do, but feel like

34:19

they can't because of patriarchy and those expectations. So

34:22

that said though, I also

34:24

think that most of the men that

34:26

I talk to and with my own

34:28

experience, it's more trying to find some

34:31

middle way because yeah, that

34:33

is how we're socialized, right? And that

34:36

most people you meet who are women

34:38

expect a certain amount of, I guess,

34:41

confidence at least if not

34:43

taking charge, but a

34:45

certain amount of confidence or this

34:48

foregone conclusion that you always are comfortable

34:50

with whatever and always want to do

34:52

it, which might not be the

34:54

case for you. And that's something I've struggled with

34:56

a lot because I'm not always down for everything

34:58

and don't always want to do it. And

35:01

that's been a hard thing to figure out

35:03

how to communicate that in a way that

35:05

doesn't seem like, oh, well, no,

35:07

I'd want to because I'm a man. I just don't

35:09

want to with you because you're ugly or that, you

35:11

know, like that's the story people hear. And

35:14

so that can be a challenge,

35:16

but I would just encourage you

35:18

to really face that head on

35:20

and kind of have those conversations

35:22

and just be upfront about

35:24

it because you're also very unique and exciting

35:27

in a way because of this situation.

35:30

It's kind of like, okay, maybe here's a

35:32

guy who doesn't also have all the shit that

35:34

a lot of guys have from

35:36

their early sexual experiences. This

35:39

actually could be a plus for everyone involved.

35:42

Yeah, I think that's a great point. And

35:44

depending on the type of interactions that you're having,

35:46

I mean, yes, some interactions

35:48

are going to be fairly quick and

35:51

just for hookup's sake, for instance, and then

35:53

it might be a little bit more challenging

35:55

to actually discuss in the moment like, hey,

35:58

I am... less experience than

36:01

maybe the average Joe at this

36:03

point in my life. And you

36:05

know, that might be more difficult

36:07

if you are just having a hookup of

36:09

sorts. But if you're entering

36:12

into a relationship with someone, I

36:14

would like to think that people worth having

36:16

a relationship with would be understanding

36:19

of the position that you're in and

36:21

able to just have a conversation with you about

36:23

it and set up again, expectations

36:26

from the beginning of like, these are the things

36:28

that I'm interested in trying. This

36:30

is something that I don't know a lot about.

36:33

This is something that I'm excited to work

36:35

towards in terms of being a sexually realized

36:37

human being in a way that I've never

36:40

been before. And how can we

36:42

collaboratively work together to get me to that

36:44

point? If you are somebody that

36:46

I want to continue having a relationship with,

36:48

I understand that may be a lot for

36:50

some people, but maybe the types of

36:53

people that you do want to enter into a relationship

36:55

with would be willing to have that

36:57

conversation with you. Yeah. Okay. I'm

36:59

sorry that I'm taking it here. This is

37:01

just where my brain went that it's almost

37:03

like with sex, you got your

37:05

soft skills and you got your hard skills as

37:08

it were. I

37:12

mean, it really is a hey-o. Cause I

37:15

do think that traditionally historically when we're taught

37:17

or we have this

37:19

idea of someone who's like sexually skilled

37:22

or skilled in bed, we do think

37:24

about the hard skills, like literally technique.

37:26

I think about so many years of

37:28

Cosmo magazine or so many sexual technique

37:30

books out there that are

37:32

literally about specific technique, some

37:34

of which is legitimate, some of which

37:37

I think is not legitimate. So I do think

37:39

that we kind of suffer under this idea of,

37:41

Oh no, like I need to have this particular

37:43

technique or I need to have all this experience

37:45

to learn this technique in order to know how

37:47

to pleasure this other person, yada, yada, yada, yada.

37:49

And like for some people, sure,

37:51

that can be great. But

37:54

for me, maybe this is just me,

37:57

I'm more interested in the soft skills of. Are

38:00

you like enthusiastic about

38:02

having sex with me? Are you

38:04

able to give your focus and your

38:07

attention to your partner? Are you

38:09

able to communicate what you want,

38:11

what you don't want? Are you able to ask

38:13

them what they want and don't want? Are you able

38:15

to listen if they're giving you

38:17

feedback about what they want or how they want

38:19

things to be different? And are you able to

38:21

incorporate that feedback? Like to me, those feel like

38:23

the really the most important parts

38:26

where if someone has that, I don't care

38:28

if they have zero sexual experience. I'm more

38:30

excited by the idea of sleeping with

38:32

that person than by someone who's read

38:34

all the sexual technique books and has

38:36

slept with a ton of people, but

38:38

doesn't have those soft skills, if

38:41

that makes sense. And to piggyback off of

38:43

what Jace is pointing out, I

38:45

think really the good thing here is

38:48

that there may be less unlearning

38:50

that has to happen in order for

38:52

those things to come through. Like to

38:55

give a specific resource, I really love encouraging

38:57

people to go check out Buddy Martin's Wheel

38:59

of Consent books and resources because I think

39:01

that's a really great framework for learning some

39:03

of those skills of communicating and listening and

39:06

getting a sense of, you know, how to

39:08

negotiate pleasure in a sexual experience. But what

39:10

often holds people back from being able to

39:12

absorb that is they have a lot of

39:15

unlearning that they have to do a bad

39:17

habit. And I mean both men, women, non-binary

39:19

people, everybody, right? That our

39:21

culture doesn't set us up with really good

39:23

habits around these things. And so if this

39:26

person has less unlearning to do, that may

39:28

be to their advantage. Now

39:30

I'm going to piggyback on you piggybacking on

39:32

me. So kind of like we're doing like

39:34

a front flip in the air and then

39:36

re-piggybacking the other way. That's a hard skill

39:38

for sure. Insane.

39:44

And that's a couple pieces to this.

39:46

So one is that, yes, I feel

39:48

like the complaint that I've heard more

39:50

often from women about men that they

39:53

have sex with is men who

39:55

don't pay attention. And even if

39:57

they're well-meaning, but it's like they

39:59

at some point in the their life learned some

40:01

kind of way to do something, like

40:03

some way to use their mouth or

40:05

their fingers or whatever. And

40:07

they just are like, well, that's the way it

40:09

needs to go. And maybe they learn this from

40:11

porn, maybe they learn this from an early partner,

40:14

maybe they even learned it from a book, but

40:16

they're like, oh, I was told somehow this is

40:18

what's good. And more

40:20

of the negative feedback that I've heard

40:22

from women when they're just complaining about

40:24

guys that they've dated is that it's

40:27

like, I'll even redirect him to do

40:29

something different and then he does

40:31

it for a second, but then goes back to what

40:33

he did before or just doesn't know how to take

40:35

that feedback. Emily, have you ever

40:38

had a man try to put a

40:41

warm washcloth on your vulva

40:43

after sex? No.

40:46

Wait, is that a thing? Is that a thing?

40:49

I've had at least three men do

40:51

that. And I'm pretty sure

40:53

it's from a book somewhere, because in

40:56

all of those instances, or at least in two of

40:58

the three instances, the person has said like, okay, this

41:00

should feel really good and it doesn't

41:02

feel bad. I'm like, sure, comforting,

41:04

like a warm washcloth is nice.

41:08

It's like a mother cat's tongue or something. And

41:10

but that's the thing where I'm just like, this

41:12

is so weird and so specific that it

41:15

might be from a book. If

41:17

you're out there listening and you know what book that is from

41:19

or what influential piece

41:22

of media that is from, let me know. Do

41:24

these men just like after

41:27

you come, they're like, wait, wait, one second.

41:29

I just I got to do something. Then

41:31

they like heat up some water and put

41:33

it on a washcloth. And then they're like,

41:35

they're there, they're there. Pretty much.

41:38

They don't go to there, they're there and pads or

41:40

anything like that. But that's pretty much how it's gone. See,

41:43

the funny thing is, as you're describing this,

41:45

I'm like, this sounds amazing. I want someone

41:47

to do this to me. Like it sounds

41:49

great, actually. Maybe some people are there like,

41:51

no, that is the thing to do. Yeah,

41:53

but it sounds amazing to me. I mean,

41:55

if it's cold, if it's cold out, sure.

41:58

A warm anything. But but. You

42:00

know, I don't know. Something kind of

42:02

soothing actually sounds really nice. Okay. Well,

42:04

I will take that note. Maybe

42:07

listeners out there, maybe you can take the note. Let us know

42:09

how it goes. Ask, ask first. Ask

42:11

first. If they want to try it.

42:13

And yes, if you know the book

42:15

that this came from, let me know,

42:18

please. Wow. You learn something

42:20

new every day. Really? Truly. The

42:22

other thing that I want to say about that

42:25

though is, yeah. So on the one hand, just

42:27

learning a thing and then thinking, oh, this is

42:29

how I do it, you know,

42:31

caution against that, right? Cause that's a complaint that

42:34

I've definitely heard many times. I

42:36

think on the other hand though, that

42:38

something that does come with experience and

42:41

this is more just saying this so

42:43

that it's something you can be thinking

42:45

about and be aware of is that

42:47

assuming you don't fall into trap number

42:49

one, then if you are taking feedback,

42:52

trying different things, trying to be very

42:54

attentive to see, you know, what is

42:56

good? What is this

42:58

person liking that you start

43:01

to build up? I guess just sort of a

43:03

larger data set of, okay, I've

43:05

had someone else before who seemed

43:07

to not respond very well to

43:09

this. So this is a different thing

43:12

that I could try. And that's where, you know, reading

43:14

books or watching videos or

43:16

talking to people, you know, going to

43:18

sex positive events and talking to people

43:20

or hearing presentations, can be

43:23

helpful. But think of it more as

43:25

you're just sort of adding a lot

43:27

of different options of things that you

43:30

might try in different situations rather than

43:32

learning a good way to do it, right? Because

43:35

you could have one person who has sex with

43:37

someone else and says, Oh my God, that was

43:39

the best sex I've ever had. That person's amazing.

43:42

And another person could have sex with them and go, no,

43:44

it was okay. Or I mean, I

43:46

didn't really like it. I really didn't like it even. I

43:49

just want to really emphasize that to like, and

43:52

I'm sure that you're already on board with

43:54

this. Yeah. Don't, don't think that this is

43:56

a specific skill. I think of

43:58

it more as you. get

44:00

a larger tool set and a

44:02

larger data set, but then each

44:04

person that you're sexual with, including

44:07

yourself, is a whole new thing

44:09

to learn and figure out and that it changes

44:11

over time, which is something I've talked

44:13

to Deticur about before of like how different,

44:15

you know, different things that you used to

44:17

like more or less and they've evolved over

44:19

time. And I think that's cool. That's

44:21

what keeps it fun. But I hope that takes a

44:24

little bit of burden off of you thinking, I've got

44:26

to know it all. I've got to have this all

44:28

figured out. Well, thanks,

44:30

Tony. We appreciate this question. I

44:32

think it's really important to realize

44:34

that all of us out there

44:37

have different experience and you

44:39

may feel really experienced, but then you meet someone

44:41

who has a ton more experience

44:43

than you and maybe they're not actually

44:45

that good of a lay. So it's

44:47

fine. Just enjoy the journey. Enjoy the

44:49

ride and good luck. Love

44:51

that. I mentioned earlier in the

44:53

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48:10

Now we have one last

48:12

question for this episode: Do

48:14

you have any advice for

48:16

coaxing? Old Polly's. Poly.

48:18

Much before Twenty fifteen. Into.

48:20

Acknowledging when their own jealousy

48:23

is motivating them. Through.

48:25

The background information. Former.

48:27

Partner An has been poly

48:29

since the two thousands. They.

48:31

Will discuss the necessity of poly

48:34

people the sea and manage their

48:36

own jealousy when it appears and

48:38

often has wise advice about it

48:40

for others. However, they can get

48:42

deeply jealous and insecure about their

48:44

partners developing strong feelings for others.

48:46

At which point all of the words

48:48

we use our deployed to act on

48:50

it or to justify it. This.

48:53

Isn't Acknowledge. So. Suggesting

48:55

jealousy could be involved is

48:57

quote denying their experience and

48:59

quote. Or. Acting on

49:02

that jealousy is quote seeking

49:04

accountability. Boundaries. Are

49:06

implied and when I pointed out

49:08

that they hadn't communicated them, that

49:10

was quote demanding emotional labor. And.

49:13

Quote. I. Ended the

49:15

relationship last year. I

49:17

was far from blameless in this I've been

49:19

reflecting on. This is part of my own

49:21

repair. I'm. Wondering how I

49:23

would have introduced and or other

49:26

old Polly's to the idea that

49:28

admitting jealousy isn't the unforgivable sin

49:30

it was when they started. This.

49:33

Is from missed in Minneapolis. Again,

49:36

Since has to sign off so good. Do.

49:38

I get to feel miss for being an old poly.

49:41

And yes, I realize now all of

49:43

us are. We

49:45

to sorrow a young. But I

49:47

but I will say yeah. I do

49:50

think that the culture has very much

49:52

the way most to before where it's

49:54

like jealousy was. the

49:56

rookie mistake and number one as you feel

49:58

jealousy you're sailing out you need to do

50:00

more personal work, you need to get through that. And

50:04

then yeah, it can lead to some of those mental

50:07

gymnastics to try to justify to

50:09

yourself even how you're feeling or

50:11

how you're acting. So yeah, definitely

50:13

it's not nothing. Yeah,

50:15

we were just talking about this the other

50:18

night that I do think in the early

50:20

to mid 2000s, there was so much emphasis

50:22

that if you're feeling any type of

50:24

way, really it's

50:26

down to you to figure it out.

50:30

It has nothing to do with your partner or what your

50:32

partner is doing. And it makes

50:34

sense to me why that sort of,

50:36

I guess, schema arose out of the

50:39

culture if we think about going back

50:41

even before that where I do think

50:43

a lot of the practice of polyamory,

50:45

again, sort of riding the wave of the

50:48

swinging movement was very couple

50:50

centric, very hierarchical. And

50:53

I think there was a lot of a sense of

50:55

people can be controlling of their partners and it's totally

50:57

fine. And I get how there was

50:59

part of this backlash against that,

51:02

that put this emphasis on doing more personal work

51:04

as opposed to trying to control your partner's behavior

51:06

and stuff like that. So like I

51:08

understand why that would happen. But yes, I do think

51:11

we see this in the pre 2015 poly

51:13

folks where I think

51:16

we do have a hard harder time being

51:18

able to admit to feeling

51:21

jealousy in particular that

51:23

may be admitting that feels more like, oh,

51:25

that's a personal failing if you're

51:27

feeling that way. Now that

51:29

being said, with this particular situation,

51:31

this is a very tricky one

51:33

because it's a really

51:36

tough call to make and

51:38

chances are really high that if you try to tell

51:40

someone whether they're pre 2015 polyamorous

51:43

or not, if you're trying to

51:45

say, no, you're just jealous right

51:47

now, 100% that is not going to

51:49

go over well is not going to go

51:52

over well. Yeah. I think in

51:54

terms of being able to deal with jealousy,

51:56

I will recommend again, our 50 ways It'll

52:00

jealousy episodes per one interior which

52:02

are Three Ninety Four and. Three

52:04

Ninety Five. So. You can

52:06

definitely check those out. We

52:08

just have to acknowledge the

52:10

jealousy. Is something that everyone's gonna

52:12

feel. At some point or another. It's

52:15

absolutely a thing that is

52:17

normal. And. When you're adding

52:19

multiple people into a dating equation, it's

52:22

completely understandable that you're going to feel

52:24

it from time to time. And

52:26

I think just changing the narrative around

52:29

that in general if you are able

52:31

to yes introduce the had to older

52:33

paul isn't some way. And say

52:36

hey. Yes, I I

52:38

once you acknowledge that this

52:40

is an uncomfortable feeling, I

52:42

want to acknowledge that this

52:44

may incite some sort of

52:46

discomfort or reaction on your

52:48

part by it. I want

52:50

to be honest and I

52:52

want to be able to

52:54

discuss with you some ways

52:56

in which I feel may

52:58

our relationship is lacking and

53:01

that might be a reason

53:03

why. These. Feelings are coming up

53:05

for me. I've. Done some soul searching.

53:07

I've taken some time to look at things

53:09

in a relationship that may be. I feel

53:11

like we could be doing better. And

53:13

that has caused me some jealousy and

53:15

from time to time that occurs. You

53:18

always say like what are you longing

53:20

for. And that sort of the

53:22

questionnaire like with jealousy like what is it that

53:24

you are longing for. Yeah. Yeah

53:26

I I yeah I think for

53:28

myself. Or least to think about

53:31

this person's particular situation. As or sifting

53:33

through what happened. In this relationship and are trying

53:35

to think about, I'm assuming they're trying to think about. The

53:37

next time around? Yeah, like what if I end

53:39

up in a similar situation. Again and again. I

53:41

don't think trying to tell someone hey, you're

53:44

jealous and not admitting it, you need to

53:46

shape up. That's not going to go over

53:48

very well at all. But. You

53:50

can be working to create an

53:53

environment where it feels. safe enough

53:55

for someone to be able to be honest

53:57

about those vulnerable feeling like this the stuff

53:59

that m is saying. And so

54:02

that involves things like being

54:04

emotionally honest yourself in a kind

54:06

and gentle and compassionate way. And

54:08

so it may mean you taking

54:11

ownership of the fact when you're feeling jealous. If

54:13

that's something... If that's an environment that you want

54:15

to be in where you want your partner to feel

54:17

safe enough to talk about those things, then

54:20

that's good. I worry a

54:22

little bit that... This may be

54:24

me reading between the lines too much on this

54:26

question, but sometimes the way I've seen this play

54:28

out in a sort of toxic way is a

54:30

little bit of like, okay, well, if I can

54:33

get my parent to just admit that it's just

54:35

jealousy, I don't have to do anything.

54:37

Like if I can get them to admit, oh,

54:39

it's just their own feelings, then that absolves me

54:42

of any responsibility. And so I hope that that's

54:44

not the case or wasn't the case in this

54:46

particular relationship because I feel like even if your

54:48

partner does say, hey, I'm struggling with some feelings

54:50

that are mine and I take ownership of them,

54:52

it doesn't mean that you get to be like,

54:54

great, have fun with that Sia necessarily. Yeah.

54:58

So that's not how I

55:00

read this, but I do

55:02

have something actually kind of similar that

55:05

I wanted to say coming from a different angle. And

55:08

that's that, as Emily mentioned

55:10

with jealousy, it's like, what

55:12

are the feelings behind it? What's going

55:14

on? And there have even been times

55:16

in the past where we've talked about

55:18

this idea that maybe jealousy itself doesn't

55:20

even exist as an emotion.

55:22

And it's more this shortcut descriptor for a

55:25

whole group of other feelings and emotions that

55:28

can be a little amorphous. So

55:30

I would say in that sense, you know,

55:32

doing what Emily was saying and just saying,

55:34

okay, how could I have the same conversation

55:36

that I want to have, but

55:38

without needing to use the word jealousy kind of

55:41

as a little mental challenge of how could I

55:43

ask the same questions I want to ask?

55:45

How could I bring up the same concerns just

55:47

without using that word? I actually

55:49

think this is a good practice in general

55:51

because it helps you to think of really

55:54

what's going on underneath, even if you're fine

55:56

admitting, yeah, this is jealousy saying, okay, how

55:58

would I describe it? if I couldn't use

56:00

that word, can be a helpful way to

56:02

examine it. But I think

56:04

the other piece of this is that

56:07

from the examples of saying, you know,

56:09

if you approach this person trying to

56:11

talk about what they're doing, their actions

56:13

here, right? So it's that suggesting their

56:16

jealousy could be involved or when they

56:18

act on that jealousy that then they

56:20

get defensive about it and say it's

56:23

seeking accountability or not being clear

56:25

about boundaries. They say, oh, you're demanding emotional

56:27

labor from me. That

56:30

it sounds like a lot of this was

56:32

in response to actions that they

56:34

were doing. And so it

56:36

could also, obviously, this is going to

56:38

be hard and maybe the person just will be stubborn

56:40

and won't respond to that and just be

56:42

like, no, absolutely not. And then it's like, yeah, don't be

56:44

in a relationship with them. I know that

56:47

I say that like it's easy, but sometimes

56:49

it just doesn't work out. Not every person

56:51

is a person that you can be in a

56:53

relationship with like that. But it

56:55

sounds like in this case, there are probably some times

56:58

where it's like, hey, I don't care why you did

57:00

it, but this thing that you did wasn't

57:02

okay. And

57:05

that, again, is a way to say, how can

57:07

we have this conversation without even needing to talk

57:09

about why you did it? It's just

57:11

the fact that you did it. That's the problem. Yeah,

57:13

I like that. I like that clarification of

57:15

getting down to the nitty gritty of like

57:18

the actual actions and

57:20

behaviors because I think I could see underneath

57:22

this as we're starting to get into the

57:24

nitty gritty of like, well, do you feel jealous?

57:26

No, it's not jealousy. Well, this is why it looks to me

57:28

like jealousy. No, well, this is why it's not jealousy. That doesn't

57:30

sound to me like a very productive

57:32

conversation trying to

57:35

get to the bottom of why this person

57:37

is acting in this particular way or why

57:39

they're feeling a particular way or things like

57:41

that. But yeah, I think I like that

57:43

clarification. Thank you, Miffed in

57:45

Minneapolis. I hope that this was helpful.

57:47

I hope that as you're sorting out

57:49

what happened in this relationship, it helps give

57:51

you some insight and some ideas about how to prevent

57:53

something like this happening in the next one. And

57:56

speaking of jealousy, we want to hear from

57:58

everybody listening. on our Instagram

58:01

stories this week, we are throwing up this question,

58:04

how has your relationship to jealousy

58:06

changed over the course of your

58:08

life? Really curious to hear

58:11

everybody's responses. Also, if

58:13

you want to be one of

58:15

those who's able to submit a

58:17

question for our future listener Q&A

58:19

episode, you can join our community

58:22

by going to patreon.com/multi emery. That

58:24

also will give you access to

58:26

our discord server or our private Facebook

58:28

group again, go to patreon.com/multi emery.

58:30

In addition, you can share with

58:33

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58:35

or Tick Tock multi emery is

58:37

created and produced by Jason Lindgren,

58:40

Emily Matlack and me, Dedeker Winston. Our

58:42

production assistants are Rachel Chenoweth and Carson

58:44

Collins. Our theme song is forms I

58:46

know I did by Josh and Anand

58:49

from the fractal cave EP. The full

58:51

transcript is available on this episode's page

58:53

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58:59

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