0:04

One thing that I found immediately after

0:06

becoming monogamous again that a friend pointed

0:08

out to me, he

0:10

was like, yeah, when you're monogamous, the

0:13

idea in your brain that every

0:16

person could be a potential mate

0:18

kind of shuts off. And

0:20

I didn't even think about it

0:22

like that until then. But

0:24

it's this idea that especially when I

0:26

was non-monogamous, I would meet somebody and

0:28

I'd be like, huh, maybe I could

0:30

date that person. Could I date

0:33

this person? What do I think about them? They're

0:35

kind of hot or they're kind of interesting. Maybe

0:37

I would want to explore that further. And

0:40

while it's exciting and fun to get the

0:42

opportunity to do that, it's also time consuming

0:44

and emotionally consuming.

0:48

And to not be putting out

0:50

that energy towards people, I do

0:52

think that it creates room for

0:54

that energy to be funneled into

0:56

other areas of your life. Welcome

1:00

to the Multi-Amory podcast. I'm

1:03

Jace. I'm Emily. And I'm

1:05

Dediker. We believe in looking to

1:07

the future of relationships, not

1:09

maintaining the status quo of

1:11

the past. Whether you're monogamous,

1:14

polyamorous, swinging, casually dating,

1:16

or if you just do relationships differently, we

1:19

see you and we're here for you. Fongs

1:23

I know I

1:26

did. Forcing

1:30

me to form myself

1:32

to fit. On

1:37

this episode of the Multi-Amory

1:39

podcast, we're doing a final

1:41

listener question episode for the

1:43

year. You hear those

1:45

sleigh bells jingling, ring-ting-tingling too.

1:48

It's lovely weather for a Q&A together.

1:50

Oh, I love that. With all

1:52

of you. Yes, I love that.

1:55

So we're actually recording this in advance so

1:57

that we can take a little bit of

1:59

time off. at this time of

2:01

the year. So we're actually recording

2:03

this before the sleigh bells are jingling and

2:06

people laughing long before

2:08

anyone's actually taking sleigh rides together. So

2:11

what we're doing for this one

2:13

is we're actually going back and answering

2:15

some of the questions that were

2:17

submitted for previous Q&As this

2:19

year that we just unfortunately didn't have

2:21

time to get to in our previous

2:24

Q&A episodes, even though we really wanted

2:26

to. So thank you again

2:28

to everyone who submitted questions this year,

2:31

and we look forward to doing more

2:33

of this next year, and we really

2:35

appreciate all the great feedback that we've

2:37

gotten on these Q&A episodes. So

2:40

we're currently looking at ways to streamline that

2:42

process, so stay tuned for that in the

2:44

future. But if you want to submit a

2:46

question for us to discuss on the show,

2:49

you can do that if you are one of

2:51

our supporters, which you can do by going to

2:53

multiamory.com slash join to join

2:56

our exclusive community of amazing listeners

2:58

and get the chance to submit your

3:00

questions for future episodes. Additionally,

3:03

if you're interested in learning about

3:05

our fundamental communication tools that we

3:07

reference on this show, you can

3:09

check out our book, Multiamory Essential

3:11

Tools for Modern Relationships, which covers

3:13

some of our most used communication

3:15

tools for all types of relationships.

3:17

You can find links to buy

3:19

it at multiamory.com/book or wherever

3:22

fine books are sold. Also, check

3:24

out the first nine episodes of this

3:26

podcast where we cover some of those

3:28

same widely used tools as well as

3:30

some of the fundamentals that we discuss

3:33

over and over again on this show, and I'm sure

3:35

will come up during this episode today. Quick

3:38

disclaimer, as always, before we get started

3:40

here, all three of

3:42

us have spent a lot of

3:44

time studying healthy relationship communication, but

3:46

unfortunately, we're not mind readers yet.

3:48

We are working on it, and

3:51

our advice is based solely on this limited

3:53

information that we have, so just take everything

3:55

with a grain of salt. Every

3:57

situation is unique, and we encourage.

3:59

you out there to use your own judgment

4:01

and seek professional help if needed. We're

4:04

just going to be given our

4:06

own take on things and so take it

4:08

or leave it totally up to you. And

4:11

ultimately you're the only true expert on

4:13

your own life and feelings and your

4:16

decisions are your own. So

4:18

with that, let's get started. Here's

4:20

our first question. I fell

4:22

in love with a colleague who is Polly. My

4:25

wife and I have done swinging in the

4:27

past before we had our child who is

4:29

now for a no experience

4:32

with emotional ethical nominogamy.

4:35

The colleague and I struggled to navigate being

4:37

quote unquote, just friends while we work together,

4:39

what to share with each other, what not

4:41

to share, how to acknowledge the feelings and

4:44

not act on them slash escalate. In

4:46

this struggle and in realizing how much

4:48

Polly fit for me and always has,

4:50

my feelings deepened. My wife was

4:53

aware of the feelings and that I was interested in

4:55

opening, but we needed to build more security

4:57

in our relationship first. She

4:59

felt that acknowledgement of our feelings

5:01

was an emotional affair and has been extremely

5:03

hurt. Nearly all affair

5:06

literature and approaches are based on

5:08

a monogamous framework where the only thing

5:10

that matters is the original primary couple. It

5:13

counsels to cut off all contact with

5:15

the affair partner, focus on the primary

5:17

couple, never look back. I

5:19

understand needing to focus on repair and rebuilding security

5:21

and trust, but cutting someone out of my life

5:24

who I love and have a rare and important

5:26

connection with does not vibe with my values. And

5:29

it feels like it is being imposed on me. I

5:31

want to choose my wife and my former

5:33

colleague. I want to love fully

5:35

and openly. Do you have any

5:38

ideas or thoughts on how to create security and

5:40

trust in a relationship when there is a breach

5:42

of trust from a polyamorous perspective as

5:44

opposed to a monogamous framework that says

5:46

cut them out and don't look back,

5:49

especially when you and your partner have pretty different

5:51

views on what happened and what it meant. In

5:53

my couples therapy, I feel shoved into a framework

5:55

that doesn't fit or make sense for me. Signed,

5:58

Mono No More. If

6:01

it's okay, I want to just go ahead and jump in.

6:03

Yeah. The first thing I want to

6:05

do is I do want to validate this

6:07

person's frustration when it comes to

6:09

the information that's out there about

6:11

recovering from an affair. This

6:14

is something that really frustrated me a lot in

6:16

all the training that I have done, specifically

6:18

as much as I love my training that

6:20

I got through the Gottman Institute, their

6:24

approach is literally this, right? I

6:26

mean, their approach... I'm sure. I

6:28

call it a tone, a tune,

6:30

attach. So the idea is that

6:32

you work through the atonement, making sure

6:34

that the person who is quote unquote

6:36

the perpetrator properly is able to apologize

6:39

and make amends to the person who is

6:41

hurt. A tune is

6:43

the stage where you're able

6:45

to process together and kind of actually be

6:47

able to receive and understand each other's feelings.

6:50

I feel like that's kind of the seeking

6:52

mutual understanding and a mutual understanding of what

6:54

actually happened. And

6:56

then the attachment phase, which is about,

6:58

okay, now we can come back together

7:01

and feel more closeness, more intimacy.

7:04

Maybe that's when we're going to be ready

7:07

to have sex together again or to feel

7:09

like things are getting closer to normal again.

7:11

So that's their framework, which I don't think

7:13

overall is a bad framework. I think it

7:15

could apply to any kind of breach of

7:18

trust, not just an affair. However,

7:20

there are some weird things in their framework

7:22

that of course the person who cheated has

7:24

to completely cut off all contact with the

7:27

person they cheated with, which I think if

7:29

you're monogamous, sure, that makes sense. When you're

7:31

not monogamous, that's a little bit tricky. The

7:34

other weird thing that the Gottmans recommend

7:36

is the person who is cheated on

7:38

should get to be

7:40

able to ask any question they want or

7:42

get any kind of information they want from

7:45

the other person. So if it's like,

7:47

I want to be able to look through all of your

7:49

text messages or like, I want to be able to look

7:51

through your inbox or I want to be able to ask

7:53

specific questions about like, which sex acts

7:55

you did. Again, maybe in

7:57

a monogamous framework, maybe it makes sense.

8:00

to be able to do that, but when you're

8:02

in a non-monogamous framework, it's like, you know?

8:06

And I think what especially makes it difficult

8:08

is I find myself working

8:10

with people who are non-monogamous or

8:12

polyamorous and something has happened that's felt like

8:14

a breach of trust or like an affair, but

8:17

it's with a relationship that's been

8:19

ongoing or someone who has multiple ongoing relationships and

8:22

so it's not really ethical to be like, here,

8:24

I'll show you all of my text messages or

8:26

I'll just go ahead and cut someone out. So

8:28

that's just the one piece that I want to

8:30

make sure to put a pin in that I

8:32

can validate the frustration that there's not a lot

8:34

of resources out there that

8:36

give clear guidance about working

8:39

through these things that also

8:41

include non-monogamous people. That

8:44

being said, however, I do think

8:46

that there are more couples therapists

8:48

available that potentially would have an

8:51

idea and an understanding of non-monogamy

8:53

more than it sounds like this

8:55

particular one does. So

8:57

to me immediately, I thought maybe

8:59

we should be going instead to

9:02

a different couple's therapist, one that

9:04

at least understands what non-monogamy is

9:06

all about so that there's more

9:08

of an equal footing there. I

9:11

don't know. I don't want to invalidate the

9:14

spouse's feelings either because...

9:16

Oh, totally. I can

9:18

imagine. I can imagine

9:20

that this would be really challenging if

9:23

that is not the expectation that was

9:25

set up from the beginning that emotions

9:27

wouldn't come into play in

9:29

terms of becoming entwined with another

9:31

person possibly. But as

9:34

we often talk about on this show, that

9:36

tends to happen I think when you do

9:39

invite the possibility of something

9:42

more, of more people in

9:44

the equation than just one

9:46

person, one monogamous leading person.

9:49

So I'm not surprised that that

9:51

ultimately happened. And

9:54

I think if I were the

9:56

spouse, I would

9:59

try to... I don't know,

10:01

it's hard to backpedal here, but I would

10:03

want there to be an understanding between both

10:06

people that, hey, we have

10:08

invited this into our life in some

10:10

way and there was always a possibility

10:13

of more occurring. I understand and

10:15

acknowledge that this is maybe a

10:17

breach of the trust

10:19

that we had for one

10:21

another surrounding our non-monogamy. However,

10:23

I have realized for myself

10:25

that this is the direction

10:27

in which I want to start to go

10:30

and it happens to be with somebody that is

10:32

already currently in my life. What

10:35

is it that would make you

10:37

feel better about that possibility coming

10:40

into our lives more and

10:43

also what is it that I can do

10:45

for you to help you out through

10:48

this transition? What

10:50

is a possible way that you can

10:52

also maybe start flourishing in

10:54

this way as well in becoming non-monogamous

10:56

as well in a more specific

11:00

polyamorous format perhaps? I

11:02

don't know, all of that is perhaps easier

11:05

said than done, but I do think like

11:07

a lot of conversation needs to happen and

11:09

I certainly wouldn't be of the mind of

11:11

like, yeah, we've got to cut this person

11:13

out of our lives entirely, this other person

11:15

that I've developed feelings for because I don't

11:18

know, that seems sad and tough too.

11:21

Gosh, yeah, it's tough because there's

11:23

so much nuance in this question,

11:26

right? There's clearly a long history

11:28

with this couple and then also

11:30

all the specifics of how

11:33

this came up, what

11:35

it was specifically that made

11:38

this person's wife feel like

11:40

this was an emotional affair. Like,

11:43

I really have a hard time with

11:45

the whole emotional affair concept in general.

11:48

I think there's a lot of challenging

11:50

problematic stuff in it in terms of

11:52

the way that we think about relationships

11:54

between people generally of different genders. I

11:57

feel like emotional affairs are almost always

11:59

spoken about. heterosexual relationships

12:01

where there's this kind of

12:03

double standard about how close

12:05

or how affectionate you can

12:07

get with someone of the

12:09

opposite sex I guess. But

12:12

you know but I also understand the feelings

12:14

right because if we think about it not

12:16

so much as is this an affair or

12:18

not is this an emotional affair whatever but

12:20

instead just look at was

12:22

this a breach of trust like Dedeker said and

12:25

I could see how that that would feel that

12:27

way to this person's life of this thing

12:30

had been going on that was important

12:33

and an emotional and

12:35

you know all of those things

12:37

in your life that was kept from me

12:40

and not just sort of like oh well it

12:42

just didn't come up but it it probably got

12:44

to that point where once she

12:46

found out about it it felt clear this

12:48

was kept from me and

12:51

again it can really vary based on the

12:53

situation of how big of a breach of

12:55

trust that can be you know

12:57

sometimes there's little things that we keep from each

12:59

other and sometimes bigger things and so so all

13:02

that to say there's not this clear answer of

13:04

oh if it was this then it's okay and

13:06

if it was this it's not okay right it's

13:08

all about how are we feeling how do

13:10

we feel safe in this relationship stuff like that I think

13:13

on that note something worth coming

13:16

back to that jumped out to me from this

13:18

is this sentence in the

13:21

first paragraph that says my wife was aware

13:23

of the feelings which I'm assuming

13:25

means not feelings for this particular co-worker

13:27

but just the feeling that polyamory is

13:29

a better fit for this person but

13:32

we needed to build more security

13:34

in our relationship first and that

13:36

this swinging that they did before

13:38

happened more than four years ago

13:41

before they had their child makes

13:43

me question a little bit what

13:45

does more security mean it

13:47

feels like that's a little bit of a red

13:49

herring when people talk about that just we

13:52

need to feel more secure first it's kind

13:54

of this like yeah but it's been four

13:56

years potentially what does that mean what

13:59

is actually being more secure? I

14:04

don't like your tone young man. I'm going

14:06

to push back on you because

14:08

mostly because I think that

14:11

request or that feeling of like I want

14:13

to feel more secure before changing the format

14:15

of our relationship, I think that's 100% valid.

14:20

Like I think there can be some instances

14:22

where someone is just scared and just kicking the

14:24

can down the road and like moving the goalpost

14:26

of how safe they need to feel before they're

14:28

ready. But I also think that

14:30

this is completely legitimate. This whole thing

14:33

to me is making me think about our conversation with

14:35

Jessica Fern about the paradigm shock. Like to

14:37

me this looks like a big like someone

14:39

was ready to change the relationship paradigm maybe

14:41

before the other person was or the person

14:44

didn't even realize they were going to start

14:46

to hit go on changing the

14:48

paradigm and now this is the

14:51

shock that comes from it. And I don't

14:53

think it means that this relationship doesn't have

14:55

the capacity to shift the paradigm. But to

14:57

me that's what I see is like it

14:59

sounds like there's kind of some shock that's

15:01

going on from the fact that things changed.

15:03

They changed at least to their

15:06

spouse seemingly quickly without

15:08

them being a part of the process or at least

15:10

as much a part of the process as they wanted

15:12

to be. It does

15:14

seem like some mismatched expectations

15:17

as well potentially for this

15:20

person who's writing in said, you

15:22

know, my wife was aware of the feelings that

15:25

I was having and that I was interested in

15:27

opening up. And so perhaps

15:29

they thought that eventually that would be a

15:31

thing that was on the table. Now

15:34

I don't know if that contributed

15:36

to moving forward with this other

15:38

person in an emotional context and

15:41

that just kind of happened because

15:43

there was the possibility of non-monogamy

15:45

on the table at some point

15:48

or if it happened without that

15:50

really being a possibility truly. And

15:53

maybe that's what the wife is worried

15:55

about or maybe the wife just put

15:58

out there, yeah, sure, non-monogamy. get it,

16:00

but never actually assume that that would be

16:02

the case. And now that it is, that's

16:05

a really challenging thing to actually

16:08

have to come face to face with. There's

16:10

a couple of things I wanted to come back to with all

16:13

that. Because yes, the whole thing is

16:15

tricky and it's nuanced and I do

16:17

want to validate everyone's feelings here. One

16:20

thing to consider here is that

16:23

paradigm shock like Dedeker was talking

16:25

about and that it

16:27

does seem like there's hopefully some foundations

16:29

here that this could be a thing

16:31

you could transition to in this relationship

16:34

if you're able to figure

16:36

out what are those things to make this

16:38

feel more secure and to

16:40

help us feel stable and now unfortunately

16:42

also repairing from something

16:44

that was a breach of trust

16:46

from a lack of communication which

16:49

really goes against a

16:51

lot of what polyamory is about. Just

16:54

to give some sympathy to the question-asker though,

16:56

is that in a monogamous setup which is

16:59

what you have, we don't have examples of

17:01

how to do that or when we should

17:03

start talking about it. If

17:05

you hadn't already opened your relationship, there's

17:08

no real openings to start having those

17:10

conversations. So I'm not saying you

17:12

were terrible and screwed up here. It seems like very

17:14

clearly you were trying to do the right thing and

17:17

to not let this escalate to a point that

17:19

felt like it was out of

17:22

bounds or against the agreements in

17:24

your relationship. But unfortunately,

17:26

the experience for

17:28

your wife was that this was kept

17:30

from me and that is going to

17:33

take some time to rebuild that trust.

17:35

I do want to try to set

17:37

some realistic expectations here as I think

17:39

the chances of being able to maintain

17:41

this relationship with the former coworker and

17:44

open up this relationship with your wife is very low.

17:47

You might get there eventually, but

17:49

just because she was involved

17:51

with that lack of trust, that's going to

17:53

be a much larger jump for your wife

17:55

to get there to feel comfortable with than

17:58

with her wife. somebody knew kind

18:00

of after you've figured this out and established

18:03

it. And I don't want to say that

18:05

to be a bummer or to say it

18:07

can't ever work out because sometimes it can, but

18:09

it's going to be a much harder jump to

18:11

get there. And so I just want to set

18:13

some realistic expectations there. I don't

18:16

think that means cutting that person out of your

18:18

life entirely, but I would not get your hopes

18:20

set on having a romantic

18:22

relationship with this person. It's just, yeah, definitely

18:25

not right away. Yeah, maybe

18:27

take a bit. Yeah. I

18:29

mean like a two year long piece. I'm like,

18:32

no joke. I'm talking serious. Like don't just be

18:34

like, Oh yeah, we'll wait a few months. That

18:37

might be triggering to your partner. That

18:39

is totally a thing. Right. But unfortunately,

18:41

and I think this is happening, I've

18:43

been on the, both the giving and receiving end of

18:45

this, and I've seen this play out with my clients

18:47

so much that unfortunately, just the way our brains work

18:49

is if I perceive that like

18:52

you hurt me with another person,

18:55

it's like that splash damage kind

18:57

of gets associated with that other person also.

18:59

And it can be very easy for

19:01

that, those two things to

19:04

be coupled together essentially. So again,

19:07

I would echo Jason's sentiment. It doesn't mean,

19:09

Oh, you have to submit to the mononormative

19:11

affair recovery industrial complex or whatever, and just

19:14

roll over and assume, okay, it has to

19:16

go this particular way. But

19:18

I think it is probably acknowledging that, that this

19:20

person's wife, it's going to be a

19:22

big ask. You know, a lot of

19:24

work, emotional work, together,

19:27

like carrying that emotional labor together of

19:29

working through the breach in order to

19:31

be able to open up a healthy

19:33

pathway into the type of non-monogamy that

19:35

actually works for this relationship. Good luck.

19:38

Good luck. Yeah. I mean, we

19:40

need that with love, not with slippage. But

19:44

I think that this is a lot of people's

19:46

gateway into non-monogamy. Yeah.

19:49

And we don't have good scripts for it.

19:51

We don't have good examples of this kind

19:54

of communication. Like the deck is stacked against

19:56

you to a certain extent. And so I

19:58

think it's honestly good. that it

20:01

went this way and didn't. It

20:04

wasn't an actual like sexual affair in addition

20:06

to an emotional one that was going on

20:08

or that you know clearly there was

20:11

there were efforts made here to try to

20:13

make this a good transition and it just

20:16

moved faster and felt like it was kept secret.

20:18

So I think that like this is not one

20:20

of those things where I look at and I

20:22

go oh dude this is hopeless. It's like no,

20:24

I do think there's hope here but

20:26

it's gonna take time and it's not

20:28

gonna look like you want it to look at

20:30

least not for quite a while I think. Shall

20:33

we move on to the next one? Yeah, let's do the next

20:35

one. How do you like

20:37

to navigate unrequited

20:39

NRE? How is this

20:42

different for you compared to when you're

20:44

in reciprocated NRE? Well,

20:46

I like to navigate it poorly. I

20:49

don't like to have to deal with it at all like

20:53

well just on the surface it reminds

20:55

me of like so many horrible relationships

20:57

I was in in my early 20s where I was

20:59

just like pining for someone who I look way more

21:01

into someone who is not into me or

21:04

at least not into me in the same way and

21:06

just the torture of that or maybe it was more

21:08

me torturing myself. I don't know. That's what it makes

21:10

me think of. Yeah, I

21:12

mean at any time you were a

21:14

young person or maybe not even that

21:17

young of a person but you saw

21:19

somebody from afar that wasn't that into

21:21

you and you

21:23

still had a lot of feelings for them

21:25

maybe years down the line. It

21:28

does suck but you just

21:30

you know self-soothing tactics etc.

21:33

Talking to your friends about it,

21:35

maybe writing in a journal about it, fantasizing

21:40

and then trying to find healthy coping mechanisms

21:42

to move on as well. This

21:44

is a very short question so we're kind of

21:46

having to speculate here because I think there's a

21:49

difference between it's unrequited

21:51

in the sense that I have a crush

21:53

on someone who has zero interest in me.

21:55

I think that's a

21:57

different coping mechanism from I mean a

22:00

new relationship with someone and

22:02

they're showing up, but I'm way more over

22:04

the moon or seem to be way more

22:06

over the moon than they are. Maybe they're

22:09

not demonstrating that same level. Maybe they're even

22:11

telling me that their feelings are not quite the

22:13

same, but we're still in the relationship together of

22:15

some kind of thing that's different. I've

22:18

done that too and then drove the person to

22:20

leave the relationship. Oh no. Gosh.

22:23

How'd you do that? Well, I don't

22:25

know. We were young and I think I was

22:27

just like way too into him and

22:30

I think scared him away, which for

22:32

better or for worse, that may have

22:34

been a me thing or a him

22:37

thing or just mutually like not the

22:39

right time for that kind of relationship.

22:42

And then yeah, actually when I became

22:44

polyamorous and like I saw him the

22:46

day that I had my first non-monogamous

22:48

experience, I went out like on a

22:50

little lunch day with him and we

22:52

talked about it a little bit and

22:54

he was like, yeah, I don't

22:56

know. Sex was never our issue.

22:59

Like there were a lot of things that weren't our

23:01

issue. It just, I just wasn't really ready for that

23:03

kind of relationship. So I guess

23:05

it's nice that you got to acknowledge

23:07

it and talk about it. Sure. Yeah,

23:10

I agree. And I think that's

23:12

just the thing. Sometimes two people don't

23:14

always connect in exactly the same ways

23:16

and that's okay and

23:18

maybe temper your expectations a little bit

23:20

or perhaps try to find

23:23

ways to, I don't know, let

23:26

out that NRE and in other ways

23:29

that aren't necessarily directly at the person

23:31

with whom you're super in

23:33

attachment to. Yes, that's

23:35

such a good point and that's the

23:37

thing that I've honestly spent

23:40

quite a lot of time over

23:42

the last several years kind of

23:44

pondering that question because I've also had that

23:46

happen and I've been on both sides of

23:48

it where starting a relationship

23:50

and I was just so

23:52

into this person in a way where

23:54

it has that like magical,

23:57

this is meant to be kind of feeling.

24:00

and totally drove them

24:02

away. Kind of like you were talking about

24:04

Emily, but this happened quite quickly within the

24:06

first month or whatever, right? Like quite quite

24:08

quickly. Yeah, I suppose in

24:10

the long run, merciful. Yeah. And then I've been

24:13

on the other side of it as well. And

24:15

there's sometimes where it's significant enough that it's like,

24:17

whoa, whoa, whoa, this is not going to work.

24:20

And other times where it's just there's that little

24:22

bit of mismatch. And so those are the ones

24:24

that can kind of go on for a while.

24:26

And maybe it evens out or maybe it's just

24:29

like, yeah, we can't keep doing this. Kind of

24:31

like it sounds like your story, Emily. But

24:34

I've fought back on those situations.

24:37

And it's really easy when you're not in it to

24:39

say, oh, well, just chill,

24:42

right? Just chill a little bit, you know,

24:45

kind of enjoy feeling strongly

24:47

about this person, but don't feel the need to

24:50

kind of put so much meaning

24:52

and effort and whatever into it.

24:55

I think in practice,

24:57

that's hard to do though.

24:59

And so that's something I have thought about

25:01

quite a bit. I think honestly, just having

25:04

more experiences and also just feeling like you've

25:06

got more going for it in your life

25:09

makes that easier. I think

25:11

at the time, again, this example I'm thinking

25:13

of was probably the most significant example of

25:15

that for me was

25:17

a time where it didn't

25:20

feel like things were going as

25:22

well in work, in

25:24

relationships, in kind of everything. And so

25:27

it was this like, oh, finally someone

25:29

that I feel like I could really be

25:31

into, this has to work. And

25:33

so I think that can really amplify

25:36

that feeling of NRE because it's like,

25:38

oh, finally this thing that is

25:40

so hard to find versus other times in my

25:42

life where, you know,

25:44

maybe I don't have a lot of relationships, but

25:46

the ones I have are good. And I feel

25:48

solid about those and I feel solid in my

25:50

work life. And my social life and other things,

25:52

it's easier to be like, wow,

25:54

I'm excited about this person, but also, you know, I'll

25:57

take my time and see how this goes. And

25:59

so I do often ponder

26:01

like what are some ways to

26:04

help to cultivate that state of

26:06

mind of I'm

26:08

fine, I don't have to have this one thing

26:10

be the most meaningful thing that I chase after

26:13

while still actually feeling that and getting

26:16

to enjoy it. Yeah, the

26:18

phrase that I always whip out on

26:20

people about NRE is, you know,

26:23

how can you find ways to let your

26:25

head be in the clouds but keep

26:27

your feet on the ground? Like

26:30

I really do think it is kind of

26:32

about this extending and kind of attuning to

26:34

both of those things like letting yourself enjoy

26:36

the feelings while also trying to keep an eye

26:38

on reality and your boundaries

26:40

and your sense of self. And

26:44

I do think when it comes to as this

26:46

person puts it as unrequited, NRE, I

26:49

think it's the same, you know, because

26:51

yeah, like you said, Jayce just telling yourself, I'll get

26:53

over it isn't going to work. You

26:55

know, I mean, if it truly is a situation where

26:57

it's like I truly need

26:59

to quit myself of this notion that

27:01

this person is going to be in a

27:03

relationship with me then maybe going the route of,

27:06

okay, I'm going to kind of try to put them

27:08

out of sight, out of mind and fill my days

27:10

and distract myself with other things, like I think that's

27:12

cool. If it's a situation where like

27:14

you are in a relationship and the NRE is just

27:16

not matching in the same way, then

27:18

I do think it is about, okay, how do

27:21

I kind of shore up my own groundedness while

27:24

not completely trying to squash my

27:26

interest and curiosity in this person?

27:30

Because there could still be a really

27:32

wonderful connection there, a very wonderful

27:34

unique relationship even if it doesn't play out exactly

27:36

the way that you thought that it would. Just

27:39

to go back though to the question at

27:41

hand about how to go about that is,

27:43

boy, is just

27:47

kind of intentionally limiting your

27:49

exposure to this person I

27:51

think can be helpful and

27:54

not by doing that by kind of holding yourself

27:56

back because that can sometimes make it feel more

27:58

intense. Just like, oh, I'm trying not to. to

28:00

text them every day. So I've got to really

28:02

hold it back and that can kind of amplify

28:05

that feeling. But instead, it's like saying, okay, I

28:07

feel this energy. What else could

28:09

I put this energy into right now?

28:11

And I know that sounds so woo-woo.

28:14

But if you think about it, like, yeah, I've

28:16

got all this going on for me. Let me do something

28:18

that's going to mentally

28:20

or physically exhaust myself to try to burn

28:22

some of this off. And

28:24

that for you could be going to

28:26

the gym and doing a really intense workout.

28:28

This could be signing up

28:31

for a class in something so you're

28:33

really intellectually stimulating yourself or maybe listening

28:35

to a very

28:37

intellectual podcast like the

28:39

History of English podcast or something that's,

28:41

I don't know, if that does it

28:44

for you. Or learning a new

28:46

skill or just something to really get

28:48

into like a craft project or cleaning your

28:51

whole house or something so that it's not

28:53

just trying to hold back energy but kind

28:55

of redirecting it. That's so far

28:57

the best I've come up with. Often

29:00

this can go into just hanging out with friends more

29:02

as well is the way that's shown up for me

29:04

recently of like, okay, I've got this energy. I'm going

29:06

to put it here because that's something

29:08

I do value and I want going on in my

29:10

life. I haven't been in quite

29:12

the same situation of feeling that really intense

29:15

kind of chemical attraction to someone

29:17

leading to that NRE. I haven't

29:19

had that recently. So who

29:22

knows? I'll have to put these to the test if

29:25

I'm in that situation again. I

29:28

think just being aware of what

29:30

NRE is as well that it

29:33

is truly just chemicals coursing through

29:35

your body for a

29:37

set period of time that do sort

29:39

of cause you to be

29:41

a little encumbered by all

29:44

of these emotions and not

29:46

really thinking about all

29:48

the other stuff in your life and

29:51

maybe not even seeing your partner

29:53

as a fully formed individual just

29:56

as kind of this idealistic pedestal

29:58

individual. And that And just

30:00

being aware of that can maybe help

30:02

put some perspective in place, knowing like,

30:04

you know, once this

30:06

subsides, I may be able to

30:09

sort of see the situation a little bit more

30:11

clearly and have a

30:13

little bit more of an objective analysis

30:15

of who this person is and who

30:17

we can become together in relationship. And

30:21

that'll maybe help a bit.

30:24

All right. We've got a few more questions to get

30:26

to where we're going to talk about things

30:29

like sex and monogamy

30:31

and collars. But

30:33

first, we're going to take a quick break to

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talk about how you can support this show, keep

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emery. That's patreon.com/multi emery. And

38:31

we're back. Okay, next

38:33

question here is, I

38:36

just realized I'm in a relationship

38:38

where my partner is hypersexual, and

38:41

I'm very insecure due to trauma.

38:44

I've only been poly with them for a

38:46

year, and they recently started having sex with

38:48

someone new. And I feel like

38:50

an emotional wreck from jealousy. It's like

38:53

every lull in sex drive,

38:55

lapse of physical affection or

38:57

attention, or less passionate sex

39:00

that we have isn't innocent,

39:02

but has ulterior motive now. I fantasize

39:05

of going back to when most of their

39:07

sex drive was just for me. And I'm

39:10

fairly sexual. So this is great for me. That's

39:13

a good clarification there. So the insecurities

39:15

are about that person having sex with

39:17

other people, not about wanting to have

39:19

sex themselves. I'm in therapy

39:21

for the insecurity, but that could take

39:23

years to solve. So what do I

39:25

do to make this jealousy easier so

39:27

my partner can continue having fun? And

39:30

I would add, and so I can also be

39:32

having fun and not suffering would also be great.

39:35

Can I just go the Dedecker

39:37

Winston route immediately and say like,

39:39

when I hear the word jealousy,

39:42

I always underneath want to question

39:44

what is it that I'm actually truly

39:47

longing for? Is it just for

39:49

sex? Or is it for intimacy

39:52

in a way that I feel like

39:54

I'm not getting? Is it

39:56

for my partner's time? Is it for

39:58

some sort of emotion? personal understanding

40:01

between us that perhaps I

40:03

feel isn't occurring, I would

40:06

question whether it truly is just about

40:08

the sex or if

40:10

there's something deeper, more involved that

40:13

is going on there. That's

40:15

a good clarification. I appreciate

40:17

that this person lists all the little

40:19

things that seem to trigger

40:22

this particular script in their

40:24

head about, oh, my

40:26

partner has an ulterior motive or,

40:29

oh, this is happening because

40:31

my partner is having sex with someone else.

40:33

Oh, they don't want to have sex with

40:35

me as often because of this other person

40:37

or our sex isn't as passionate because of

40:39

this other person. Because I think

40:41

that's a really good first step to

40:43

kind of identify, ooh, when this particular

40:46

condition arises, then this script

40:48

plays in my brain. Because

40:51

not only is that a good thing to

40:54

take to a therapist like this person

40:56

is already doing, at some

40:58

point it may be appropriate

41:00

and helpful to share

41:03

with their partner that this

41:06

is very vulnerable, right? But to share with

41:08

their partner, hey, I have this particular story

41:10

that plays in my mind when

41:13

these things happen. And so I just

41:15

want to share that with you so that we

41:17

can collaborate on how can we change that story.

41:20

Is this a situation for a microscript, for

41:22

instance? Or is this a

41:24

situation where it's okay for

41:26

me to be like, oh, hey, I

41:28

noticed that I went to

41:31

touch your back and you turned away and then I played

41:33

this whole script in my mind and so I just wanted to

41:35

call that out right now so that

41:37

I can have the opportunity to hear my partner say, oh,

41:40

no, I was just so busy at the computer I

41:42

didn't even notice. I

41:44

do think that at some point it may

41:46

be helpful to open

41:49

up and share some of these things, not to

41:51

make this your partner's direct problem

41:53

to solve, but to

41:55

help there to be some intimacy and maybe

41:58

some collaboration around... helping

42:00

the relationship just to continue feeling safer.

42:04

Yeah, and I think that if

42:06

it's presented in that way of, hey, we're

42:08

a team, how can we work as a

42:10

team to help this feel better? Because,

42:12

and I love that the person signed it

42:14

with this so that my partner can continue

42:17

having fun. And I hope that your partner

42:20

understands that and gets that even if

42:22

you're struggling with this, that it's not

42:24

coming from a place of not wanting

42:26

them to have a good time, but

42:29

just that stuff that's coming up with this.

42:32

And hopefully that makes that a little bit

42:34

easier to focus on, yeah,

42:36

what can we do together rather than it feeling

42:38

like this, well, gosh, now I don't know, now I'm

42:40

always feeling guilty and I don't know how to make

42:43

you feel better, you know, that kind of thing. I

42:45

do think to go back to Emily's question

42:48

at the beginning, it seems like in

42:50

this case, you're saying very insecure

42:52

due to trauma. Obviously, we don't know

42:54

any of the details about what that

42:56

means. But the fact that this comes

42:58

to any

43:00

lapses of physical affection or

43:02

attention or less passionate sex

43:04

feels like it does make

43:06

sense in terms of a jealousy,

43:08

like fear of loss sense, right? Of any

43:10

of this means I'm going to lose them

43:12

because they actually just really would rather be

43:14

with this other person. And

43:17

I guess something that makes me wonder about

43:19

a little bit is you say you've only been

43:21

doing this for a year now with this partner.

43:24

Had you been polyamorous before?

43:26

And also, what are your

43:29

other relationships looking like right now? Because

43:31

I know that that, especially early on,

43:33

can be a big challenge when

43:36

there's just sort of not enough of

43:38

a backlog of experience to build confidence

43:40

with this partner. And especially if you're

43:42

the one feeling like you

43:44

haven't had that experience as well and still

43:46

wanted to have sex with your partner and

43:49

that it didn't take you away from them.

43:51

I remember, so to go

43:53

back actually to Emily, I remember

43:55

that when we first opened up our

43:58

relationship, long, long, long ago, that

44:01

that was a struggle for you because you had

44:03

bad dates for the first

44:05

while, right? And I had some okay

44:07

dates and you were kind of

44:09

just like really struggling with it until you

44:12

kind of had that nicer experience that turned

44:15

that corner for you. Same

44:17

experience where I talked to that other

44:19

dude. Yeah, exactly. Two

44:22

experiences for the price of one. Yeah,

44:24

that is a good point that going

44:28

into another relationship or having

44:30

another experience where it kind

44:32

of flips the expectation or

44:34

the understanding of what other

44:37

relationships can look like or just feeling

44:39

better about yourself in the moment because

44:41

it's like, hey, I'm

44:44

now getting what my partner says

44:46

is so great about this prospect or about

44:49

the possibility of being with

44:51

other people or whatever and maybe in

44:53

this scenario something that may help you

44:55

feel better about the situation at large

44:58

or feel better about yourself within the

45:00

context of the situation. So

45:02

I don't know and that may just take time,

45:04

that may just take meeting more

45:06

people as well and putting yourself

45:08

out there a little bit. Building

45:12

up that backlog of experiences with this particular

45:14

partner too. So not just generally but also

45:16

with this partner to have stuff to look

45:18

back on and go, yeah, it

45:20

was fine before. Yeah. It would

45:22

probably be fine again and that's unfortunately it's not

45:24

a real shortcut to get there. Just

45:27

time. Yeah. Okay,

45:30

this next question is specifically

45:32

for Emily. Well, it goes for all

45:34

of us but yeah. Yeah, okay. So this

45:36

question is mostly geared towards Emily if she's

45:38

comfortable answering it but I'd love

45:40

to hear from any combination of folks. What

45:43

are some questions to ask myself

45:45

to determine if conscious monogamy may

45:47

be a good fit for me? The backstory

45:50

is very long and complicated but the

45:52

shortest version is that I practiced non-hierarchical

45:54

polyamory for three years and truly thought

45:56

I had a stable, happy relationship with

45:59

my former partner five years and

46:01

my meta of a year and a half. But they

46:04

both independently broke my heart in the span of

46:06

a few weeks and it really rocked my world.

46:09

I found myself truly single for the first

46:11

time since I was 19 and the

46:13

idea of monogamy seemed easier.

46:16

I'll be starting grad school soon and having enough

46:19

time for one relationship already seems tricky.

46:21

I've met someone I've really hit it off with and

46:23

I recognize I am in deep NRE as I'm falling

46:25

in love with them. I had

46:27

told them I wasn't looking for another

46:29

serious relationship after my recent big life

46:31

change but I really want to pursue this

46:34

deep connection with them. I've told them

46:36

about my polyamorous past and they've said they're

46:38

open to trying polyam at some point but

46:40

I'm not sure if I want to open myself

46:42

to multiple heartbreaks like that again. That

46:45

reasoning alone isn't a good reason to commit

46:47

to monogamy though. I'd love your

46:49

input on some more productive ways to process

46:51

this pretty big question either with my new

46:53

partner or myself. Thanks. What

46:56

you got, Emily? Yeah, wow. That

46:58

is a lot. I

47:00

got the opportunity through editing to

47:02

listen to some of the stuff

47:04

that you two talked to Amanda

47:07

Catherine about and this was kind

47:09

of a similar question to one

47:11

of the questions that you had

47:13

in there where I know

47:15

Amanda Catherine said, you know, sometimes

47:18

monogamy does just seem easier and

47:21

I've gone through moments in my life where

47:23

monogamy is the choice for me and moments

47:25

where polyamory is the choice for me and

47:27

I just want to

47:29

acknowledge that that sentiment is something that I think

47:31

a lot of people go back

47:34

to sometimes in their life

47:36

because everything out there in the

47:38

world does tell us that monogamy

47:40

is easier. Maybe it is,

47:42

maybe it isn't for you in

47:45

particular but there definitely are a

47:47

lot more social scripts out

47:49

there that help us

47:52

believe that monogamy is going to be

47:54

the easier way to go. In terms

47:56

of whether or not it's the right decision for

47:59

you, I think that's a

48:01

huge question and one that I'm

48:03

hoping to develop an episode

48:05

around in the near future. But

48:08

I do think that some of the things

48:10

that perhaps you should ask yourself are, if

48:12

I'm going to become monogamous, would

48:15

I be okay with never being

48:17

polyamorous again? And just

48:20

totally like crossing that

48:22

off the list potentially because

48:24

of those expectations that you

48:26

get into with partners where

48:29

after you're doing it for so long, you may

48:32

bring up, hey, non-monogamy sounds

48:34

interesting to me and they may be

48:37

like, no fucking way, no way.

48:40

And I think that that's just something that you

48:42

have to be aware of that possibility. And now,

48:44

of course, you can always say, okay, then this

48:47

relationship isn't for me anymore. But if

48:49

you want to stay in a relationship with that

48:51

person, there may be that kind of compromise that

48:53

you have to make and that kind of decision

48:55

that you ultimately come to. Additionally,

48:58

there are some things about

49:00

monogamy that are definitely easier.

49:03

One thing that I found immediately after

49:05

becoming monogamous, again, that a friend pointed

49:07

out to me, he was

49:09

like, yeah, when you're monogamous, the

49:12

idea in your brain that every

49:14

person could be a potential

49:17

mate kind of shuts off. And

49:19

I didn't even think about it like

49:21

that until then. But

49:24

it's this idea that especially when I

49:26

was non-monogamous, I would meet somebody and

49:28

I'd be like, huh, maybe I

49:30

could date that person. Could I date this

49:32

person? What do I think about them? They're

49:34

kind of hot or they're kind of interesting. Maybe

49:36

I would want to explore that further. And

49:39

while it's exciting and fun to get

49:41

the opportunity to do that, it's also

49:43

time-consuming and emotionally consuming.

49:47

And to not be putting out that

49:49

energy towards people, I do think that

49:52

it creates room for that energy to

49:54

be funneled into other areas of your

49:56

life, which maybe is a good

49:58

thing. And maybe... to

52:00

commit to monogamy. So I think there's a part of you

52:02

that's aware of that. But I

52:04

think I would try to go back and

52:06

explore like why did you start doing it in

52:09

the first place? And how did you feel about

52:11

it while you were doing it? Where was this

52:13

just oh, this is another fun

52:15

option and like that's it's alright. I could I

52:17

can hang with this. It's cool. It's fine. Or

52:20

was it more of the

52:22

fact that it aligned with your values? I

52:24

was like, yes, this makes sense to me

52:26

on this kind of level of yeah, this

52:28

autonomy and this way of

52:31

conducting relationships makes sense to me

52:33

on some kind of a deeper

52:35

level. And if it's that one,

52:37

I would really caution you

52:39

against doing anything that's closing that door.

52:41

Because like Emily said, it's

52:44

very possible that you end up in that

52:46

situation where that's never an option

52:48

to you again. Or you

52:50

end this relationship that's maybe

52:52

now gone on for quite a while. Because

52:54

like so often we see that scenario

52:57

of sometime early

52:59

in the relationship one person says I'm kind

53:01

of polyamory leaning the other person says yeah,

53:04

maybe someday we get together fast forward 20

53:06

years and that

53:08

person who always kind of hopes we would do that

53:11

has still kind of always wanted to do that. The

53:13

other person's like yeah, it said we entertain the idea

53:15

but I didn't really think about it seriously and in

53:18

the intervening time I haven't thought about it and I

53:20

don't want to do that. Like I see

53:22

that all the time. So I would just

53:24

really caution you about rushing to commit to

53:26

that especially if this person that you're dating

53:29

now is like yeah, I'm kind

53:31

of open to trying that at some point. Actively

53:33

keep that door open unless you're sure

53:35

you want to close that

53:38

because the thing that caused that double

53:40

heartbreak as much as it sucked was

53:42

not the polyamory. It was those people,

53:44

those relationships and that's

53:47

always a risk in any type of relationship.

53:49

You can get your heart broken just as badly in monogamy.

53:53

But just to keep that in mind, I

53:55

really caution you about making any kind of

53:57

serious committed decision. Like we say, don't sign

53:59

in. coming

56:00

from for you. And

56:02

that doesn't mean you have to logic

56:04

away all the emotional parts of exchanging some

56:06

kind of relationship symbol, because it is an

56:08

emotional thing. Because if we're just thinking about

56:11

it with our logical brain, wearing a ring

56:13

or a collar or a tattoo or

56:16

whatever really doesn't actually mean

56:18

anything inherently, but there is

56:20

an emotional side to it, right? And so it

56:23

could be coming from the emotion of, wow,

56:25

I really want to celebrate the connection that we

56:28

have and feel like we have this little special

56:30

thing, like this little special symbol that we can

56:32

recognize and maybe tell other people about. Or it could

56:35

be coming from an emotional place of, I feel

56:37

really insecure in my relationship and feel like if

56:39

I can get you to wear a ring and

56:41

give me a ring, whether that's attached to

56:43

marriage or not, or it could be if I can get

56:45

you to, if I can be collared for you or something

56:47

like that, then that's going to make me feel safe, which

56:50

may not play out the way that you think that

56:52

it's going to play out. Can I

56:55

ask, how did you broach that

56:57

subject with your partners and what was their

56:59

response? I don't remember how that

57:02

was with you, Jace, because you'd already

57:04

bought me a ring. You bought me a ring on

57:06

anniversary or something. That was one of

57:09

the very first gifts he ever gave

57:11

you. Yeah. So

57:13

it was the ring that I'm thinking about. Yeah. It

57:15

was my other partner at the time. I don't know.

57:17

I just literally was like, I want jewelry from you.

57:19

No, I was like,

57:22

you, give me jewelry. I

57:24

was like, yeah, I've woken up and

57:26

decided I want jewelry from you and

57:28

it doesn't have to be super expensive or

57:30

super fancy, but I just thought it might be nice

57:33

to have a ring that I can wear that is

57:35

a symbol of our relationship and we can pick it out

57:38

together. And he was like, okay. And we just kind of

57:40

kept our eyes peeled. And I think what

57:42

he eventually bought me was literally like a $25 ring,

57:44

but I picked it out

57:46

and was like, I really like this and

57:49

this feels appropriate. So I don't

57:51

know. I thought that's what I said. I know.

57:53

I'm just thinking about it in terms of

57:56

some kind of a role playing game where you

57:58

have items with different matters. I just

58:01

watched the whole Lord of the Rings trilogy.

58:03

So powerful objects. Yes,

58:06

exactly. Powerful objects. Yeah. And

58:09

so it is making me think about kind

58:11

of maybe a fun way to

58:13

reframe the question that Dedeker just asked,

58:15

which is that, you know, what's the

58:18

reason for wanting it? What's there? And

58:20

maybe a way to think about that and bear

58:22

with me because I'm coming up with this right

58:24

now on the spot. What is some kind of

58:27

like which type of enchantment is it

58:29

that you want on it? Fine.

58:31

Like this one's got a plus one against

58:33

ogre slaying. Well, okay, sure.

58:35

I mean, yes, there's that. And

58:38

now the question is then what does that mean for you

58:40

in real life? So, for example, it

58:42

could be I want some kind of a ring

58:44

to wear from you that gives me plus two

58:47

ogre slaying. And by ogre slaying, I mean guys

58:49

hitting on me that I can show them this

58:51

and they back off. Interesting.

58:53

Interesting. It's cute.

58:56

And it's like, sure, that's maybe not

58:58

the most romantic reason to want it, but

59:00

it's still a valid thing, a

59:02

valid enchantment that you could get on that

59:04

ring, right? Or, you

59:07

know, another one to think about might

59:09

be like with a collar, for example,

59:11

it could be that this gives me

59:13

some kind of a plus

59:16

one to identifying fellow kinksters.

59:19

And so there's also that bonus in addition

59:21

to then for the

59:23

people in that community who get it, knowing

59:25

I've got a partner who has that role. And

59:28

so it opens up a conversation,

59:30

but kind of within the context of

59:32

that. And I mean very logical about these

59:34

two, because it could also be I want this one

59:37

that gives me a plus one hurt or

59:39

something like a Captain Planet kind of power. You

59:41

know, it's just like every time I look at

59:43

it, I get all warm and

59:45

fuzzy and feel special. Like that's also great.

59:48

But maybe that's a way we could think about it. I actually

59:50

love to hear from people about

59:52

what their enchantments would be, and

59:54

then maybe the descriptions of what those are for

59:57

some kind of ring or jewelry or a

59:59

tattoo or... or a collar or something like that.

1:00:01

Maybe that'll be our question of the week this week.

1:00:04

That's a good one. That's a good one. I

1:00:06

think a particular avenue

1:00:08

of this we haven't explored is

1:00:11

let's say

1:00:13

I do have two partners and I'm

1:00:15

trying to practice some kind of relatively

1:00:18

non-hierarchical polyamory and one partner

1:00:20

gives me some kind of relationship

1:00:22

symbol, whether it's a ring or

1:00:24

a collar or we decide to get tattoos

1:00:26

or whatever and is there

1:00:29

a potential for that needing to

1:00:31

spark conversations with another partner about

1:00:34

do we also need to do the same exact thing? Does

1:00:36

it need to be tit for tat in order to feel

1:00:38

special? Does it need to be something else? I

1:00:41

don't quite know exactly what the question is there, but

1:00:43

this is a situation I can foresee

1:00:45

happening for some folks. That

1:00:48

reminds me a little bit of

1:00:50

our fairness episode because often

1:00:53

I think people will get in a scenario where they're like,

1:00:55

well, why aren't you asking me for

1:00:58

a ring or jewelry as well? And

1:01:00

does that mean somehow that I am lower

1:01:04

on the scale of relationship

1:01:07

hierarchy or whatever? And

1:01:09

I don't know. I think, I

1:01:12

know that people still get married within polyamory

1:01:14

to one individual and

1:01:18

then their other partners are not

1:01:20

necessarily married to them. But

1:01:23

I don't know. Like an illegal sense. Sure,

1:01:25

yeah. A strictly legal sense, yeah. Exactly, yeah.

1:01:27

There are still people who do choose to

1:01:29

get married within non-monogamy. And then there are

1:01:32

people who are like, no way I'm getting

1:01:34

divorced because I don't want there to be

1:01:36

any sense of hierarchy at all. And

1:01:39

these symbols are all about,

1:01:42

oh, we're enmeshing ourselves so

1:01:44

much that we're like each other's property

1:01:46

or whatever. And so I do think

1:01:48

that it is really individual.

1:01:50

And I also

1:01:52

like jewelry. So to me, that's

1:01:55

kind of fun. And it's kind of

1:01:57

exciting to have something within the relationship

1:01:59

that you're... you can look at and say,

1:02:01

oh, that reminds me of this

1:02:03

person. But I also totally

1:02:05

understand people wanting to shy away from that

1:02:07

for the sake of, no, I want to

1:02:09

be completely understanding

1:02:13

of all of my partners

1:02:15

in the fact that they may not want

1:02:17

this thing and I don't want them to

1:02:20

feel bad about me only choosing to have

1:02:22

this with one particular person. Yeah.

1:02:25

So, a couple things that came up during this

1:02:27

discussion hearing you two talking about this is one

1:02:29

thing I noticed is that we've

1:02:31

tended to approach this from the point of

1:02:33

view of, you know,

1:02:35

I want to have something, I want to wear

1:02:37

something, but I do feel like there is this

1:02:39

other side of I want you to wear something,

1:02:42

which I think can come up with a collar,

1:02:44

but also with rings or tattoos or whatever of

1:02:47

this kind of I want you to wear a symbol

1:02:49

that prove question mark,

1:02:51

question mark to me, question mark to

1:02:54

other people, question mark to yourself, question

1:02:56

mark, that I'm important

1:02:58

or that you are somehow attached

1:03:00

to me. And I think that

1:03:02

one's a little more complicated.

1:03:06

So what are you looking for? Okay. Well,

1:03:08

okay, but hold on though, because that's kind of what I

1:03:10

did to you, Jace, honestly, like a couple years

1:03:12

ago in the thick of

1:03:14

the pandemic in classic Dedeker fashion,

1:03:17

I was just like, I'm

1:03:19

buying you a ring. But

1:03:21

Dedeker, you like to retain control

1:03:23

of the situations that you're in.

1:03:26

Okay, but where it was coming from, I don't know, it didn't come

1:03:28

from a place of like, I'm buying you a ring

1:03:30

and you better freaking wear it. Sure. And

1:03:33

it's going to mean this. Like, no, I think it was like,

1:03:35

was it around your birthday or something? Or I mean, I discussed

1:03:37

it with you. I didn't just present you with the ring and

1:03:39

was like, wear this now. And I was

1:03:41

into it. I should clarify.

1:03:44

It's a cool ring. It's a cool ring. It's

1:03:46

made out of a whiskey barrel. Like it's

1:03:48

so appropriate, Jace. Yeah,

1:03:51

well, so that actually goes to the second part of

1:03:53

what I was going to say is that I think

1:03:55

if it's that you want someone else to wear it,

1:03:57

just be sure that that person's

1:04:00

stoked about it and they're excited, but

1:04:02

then also the second piece of the

1:04:04

whole power of these symbols is the

1:04:07

meaning that we give to them, but

1:04:09

that's also what makes them dangerous. And

1:04:12

I'm saying dangerous because I'm just being dramatic right

1:04:14

now, but it's that

1:04:16

thing of okay I give you this ring and

1:04:19

you wearing it shows me that you care about

1:04:21

me and that you're proud to show me off

1:04:23

and whatever it is, right? Maybe there's that meaning

1:04:25

you've put behind it, but then if

1:04:27

they're ever not wearing it, or

1:04:29

they forget it someday, or if it ever

1:04:32

gets lost or something, all

1:04:34

of the superstitious bullshit

1:04:36

that we put on that can

1:04:38

really set us back, can really

1:04:40

cause problems and cause

1:04:42

a lot of suffering that didn't need to be there. So

1:04:44

I would just encourage you to

1:04:46

approach it with a little bit of lightness.

1:04:49

So that's something like with the rings that now that

1:04:51

Dedeker and I both have gotten for each other, I

1:04:54

don't wear mine every day. She doesn't wear hers every day.

1:04:57

It's that kind of like, oh if I notice it, if

1:04:59

Dedeker notices I'm wearing my ring, it's

1:05:02

like, oh you're married to a tree today because

1:05:04

it's made of wood, right? It's

1:05:07

like a little joke. It's cute. It's fun. It's like, oh,

1:05:09

yeah, I should put this on and show that off. It's

1:05:11

cool, but it's kind of more of

1:05:13

a fun cute thing rather than a place

1:05:16

that I went to early on in our

1:05:18

relationship is anytime she wasn't wearing it, feeling

1:05:20

like why she's not wearing it. Like

1:05:23

the absence was somehow significant

1:05:25

or a flight which is not really helping

1:05:28

serve the whole purpose that supposedly this is

1:05:30

supposed to serve. So that's

1:05:32

just a piece of caution that I would

1:05:34

throw out there. And on that note, this

1:05:37

is the question that's going to be on our Instagram

1:05:39

stories this week. We want to hear from you. If

1:05:41

your partner or partners gave

1:05:44

you an enchanted ring, what

1:05:47

powers would it have? What

1:05:49

modifiers? Which buffs or debuffs?

1:05:51

We're going a little bit silly this week, but I'm really excited to

1:05:53

hear. Also, the best place for you

1:05:56

to share your thoughts about this episode with

1:05:58

our other listeners is in our episode Discussion

1:06:00

Week. channel, which is in our Discord server.

1:06:02

You can also post about it in our

1:06:05

private Facebook group. You can get access to

1:06:07

these groups and you can join our community

1:06:09

by going to multiamry.com/join. In addition,

1:06:11

you can share with us publicly on Twitter,

1:06:13

Facebook, Instagram or TikTok. Multiamry

1:06:16

is created and produced by Jace

1:06:18

Lindgren, Emily Matlack and me, Dedekir

1:06:20

Winston. Our production assistants are Rachel

1:06:22

Shedderwork and Carson Collins. Our theme

1:06:24

song is Forms I Know I Did

1:06:27

by Josh and Anand from the

1:06:29

Fractal Cave EP. The full transcript is

1:06:31

available on this episode's page on

1:06:33

multiamry.com.