0:00

Hello! Multi every listeners. This

0:02

is Deborah Kerr coming up

0:04

in April of this year. Myself,

0:06

along with dance and movement

0:08

therapist or eat crew will be

0:11

cool leading a somatic retreat

0:13

for polyamorous folks in Costa Rica.

0:15

If you've been feeling like

0:17

your brain is on board with

0:19

non monogamy by your emotions in

0:22

your feelings, are having a

0:24

hard time catching up. If you've

0:26

been struggling to access feelings

0:28

of joy or safety, Or ease

0:31

or pleasure. Or if you're feeling

0:33

isolated in your non monogamy journey

0:35

and you just want to kick

0:37

back in a hammock or go

0:40

for a walk in nature with

0:42

other consciously relating polyamorous folks, please

0:44

consider joining us. We have space

0:47

for solo poly, individuals for couples,

0:49

and we do have space for

0:51

at least one triad, but this

0:54

retreat is going to be quite

0:56

small so it's application only. You

0:58

can go to multiamri.com/retreat. For more

1:01

information on applying a for Multi

1:03

Every listeners. If you mention the

1:05

code Multi in your application, you

1:08

can get a discount on the

1:10

retreat price. Again, go to multiemery.com/retreat

1:12

and mention the Code Multi. I.

1:21

Was in a conversation this week where

1:23

my manager was doing this coffee chat

1:25

with all of us at the beginning

1:27

of our team meeting and ask everyone

1:30

to go around and share something that

1:32

they did this past weekend. This is

1:34

a totally innocuous seeming question and people

1:37

shared about their kid's birthday parties and

1:39

baby showers and all these things And

1:41

I lied. I lied about what I

1:43

did this past weekend because what I

1:46

did this weekend with spend time with

1:48

my husband and his partner and we

1:50

all. Did something together and it was

1:52

really meaningful. but I acts like I

1:55

hung out with some friends and what

1:57

it does and this is something I've

1:59

told people. It makes me feel the

2:01

way I thought when I was still

2:03

closeted as a pan sexual. It makes

2:05

me feel like I'm still worried and

2:08

this is true that I'm going to

2:10

get seen on a date and someone

2:12

at work is gonna think I'm doing

2:14

something immoral or rob and those things

2:16

that fear that same that anxiety affects

2:18

how I show up at for it

2:20

affects the were relate to my colleagues

2:23

at a Sex my sense of being

2:25

authentic and it's making. It. Harder and harder

2:27

for me to feel like my best

2:29

self. Sheer worth. Welcome

2:32

to the multi emery podcasts!

2:35

I'm Juice! I'm Emily's said,

2:37

I'm that occur We believe in

2:39

looking. To the Future of relationships.

2:41

Not maintaining the status quo

2:43

of the pass whether you're

2:45

monogamous, polyamorous, singing, casually dating,

2:48

or if you just to

2:50

relationships differently. To see you

2:52

And was he who. Have

3:04

a third of the multi emery podcasts.

3:06

We're continuing on with part two of

3:09

our two part series about coming out

3:11

as being non monogamous in the workplace.

3:13

So in the past episode, just as

3:16

a quick recap, we talked about some

3:18

of the ways to evaluate the risks

3:20

that you might have in coming out.

3:22

Some things to understand about that as

3:25

well as exploring. Why? You

3:27

might want to and hopefully some

3:29

ways to evaluate. Yes, The

3:32

prose of coming out would outweigh the

3:34

cons and whether that's something that you

3:36

feel like you're able to do and

3:38

and hopefully. My. Hope is that

3:41

more people than we expect. Come.

3:43

Away from that conversation thinking

3:46

yeah, You know what? That

3:48

is something that I could do that is

3:50

something that actually feel safe enough to do

3:53

and could start making a difference there. That

3:55

actually is something that happened to

3:57

me. so. this this happen real

4:01

quick is mostly going to

4:03

be an interview that I did with

4:05

Dr. Lily Lamboy, who is one of

4:07

the founding members of the Open Workplace

4:09

Initiatives that we talked about a little

4:11

bit in the past episode. We're going

4:13

to talk about a lot in that

4:15

interview in this episode. But

4:17

specifically, I'd been part

4:20

of that group watching their progress, and

4:22

they just released this at the end

4:24

of last year, back in October, I

4:26

believe. And I went

4:28

to their kickoff event that they had.

4:30

And they had a little meeting where

4:32

Dr. Lily Lamboy was there and Dr.

4:34

Heath Scheckinger, who you remember from our

4:37

episode with Diana Adams a while back

4:39

last year. And I

4:42

just got real pumped about this

4:44

idea of potentially being more out

4:47

and realizing, yeah, I am in

4:49

a position where I do feel

4:51

like my workplace is

4:54

just safe enough and I'm just hard enough

4:56

to replace that maybe this is something that

4:59

I could do. And so I actually, in

5:01

between recording the last episode and this one,

5:04

actually did reach out to my

5:06

HR department to start having this

5:08

conversation. Oh, I was so proud

5:10

of you. Ah, geez. You

5:13

really got fired up. I think the kickoff

5:15

event really did its purpose. What

5:17

do you think will come out of

5:19

that discussion with your HR department? Yeah,

5:22

well, so the conversation was good, first

5:24

of all. And the

5:27

person that I talked to was

5:29

the VP of HR for the

5:31

whole company, international company. And

5:34

her reaction was overall

5:37

very positive. Luckily, she actually happened

5:39

to know a little bit about

5:41

polyamory already, not from personal experience,

5:43

but she told me that she

5:46

had watched a film years

5:48

ago that it had some polyamory in

5:50

it as like a documentary film And

5:53

that that caused her at the time to look

5:55

into it and her and her husband to learn

5:57

more about it. Oh, wow. Something

6:00

they ended up doing themselves but actually was

6:02

lucky that she already knew a little

6:04

bit as enough to do our that

6:06

telling their got his early house yeah but

6:08

but something that. Was interesting

6:10

in his matches. My experience is it

6:13

in this interview with Doctor Lovely Lamboy

6:15

She mentions a lot how people in

6:17

Hr has training specifically in this kind

6:20

of stuff not specifically non monogamy to

6:22

there's not a lot of training for

6:24

that yet which were hoping to sex

6:27

and that's another thing that they're doing

6:29

with oven workplaces, but that they have

6:31

training in how to talk to employees

6:34

when they. Bring. Stuff up about

6:36

themselves and being a place that is safe for

6:38

them to talk about know I thought that was.

6:41

Cool. Realize yeah, you're right. That. Is

6:43

kind of their whole deal? Yes the

6:45

think that the answer your it has

6:47

to to help us employees which doesn't

6:50

match up with my experience. Fortunately that

6:52

skyn excellent. So. Let me give

6:54

a quick introduction about Doctor Lily Lamboy.

6:57

She. Is a Social Impacts,

6:59

executives, educator and researcher who

7:01

currently serves as the Director

7:03

of the Open Workplaces Initiative

7:05

at the Organization for Polyamory

7:07

and Ethical Non Monogamy or

7:10

Open. And. As the cofounder

7:12

of the Modern Family Institute along

7:14

with doctor his second year. She.

7:16

Holds a Phd in Political Science

7:19

from Stanford University where she also

7:21

served as a lecturer in both

7:23

the rhetoric and feminist gender and

7:25

Sexuality Studies programs. Doctor. Lamboy

7:27

previously lead the diversity, equity and

7:29

inclusion functions at both Stripe and

7:32

Blue Shield of California, which we

7:34

do talk about in the interview.

7:37

Where. She worked to scale

7:39

both internal facing employee focus

7:41

strategies and external facing health

7:43

equity, social justice, and economic

7:46

initiatives. Was. Such a cool opportunity

7:48

to get to talk with her and

7:50

get some of her breadth and depth

7:53

of expertise in there. So let's jump

7:55

into it. It as first half of

7:57

the interview. Is talking about.

8:00

So you've decided to open up. How

8:02

do you start going about that? What's the best

8:04

way to do that? Lily.

8:06

Thank you so much for joining us today. South

8:09

as a d her thank you. So.

8:11

When it comes to people have evaluated

8:13

that they think coming out at work

8:16

is something that they could do. They

8:18

feel safe enough to do it. What

8:20

are some things that from the conversations

8:22

you've had with people and the research

8:25

that you've been doing together with Open

8:27

and the Open Workplaces Initiative. Out

8:30

What? Would. Have been some of

8:32

the key tips or findings there that you sound

8:34

in terms of how do you approach this in

8:36

the safest possible way. Yeah. Great

8:39

person so. I. Would say

8:41

the first thing is really. thinking.

8:43

About who would open up to. Your.

8:46

Comfort in the conversation, Matters so

8:48

much and to penn. So my sentence

8:50

on the other side of that tip

8:52

off and I. Would really think

8:54

about food? Do you trust at

8:57

work? Who. Do you feel comfortable

8:59

talking to? And. That could

9:01

really very said accident unit. You first

9:03

have enough to appear and thus is

9:06

somebody at work that you already know

9:08

really well for might have been t

9:10

you know a house as yours or

9:12

met one of your friends or a

9:14

partner at a dinner and maybe not

9:16

have the context. And so one route

9:19

that we. Seen works and that consulted

9:21

for people. I. Know I did.

9:23

This is to say I know that for things

9:25

and I guess it on some level and they

9:27

get me and these are you Me. And

9:29

I'm gonna sit of test this out. By.

9:32

Talking to somebody who I already know and

9:34

trust who also happens to be my colleague.

9:36

That when I think is you a lot

9:39

of feedback and also make you feel like

9:41

somebody is in your corner. When.

9:43

And as you do decide to, for

9:45

example, approach somebody in your Human Resources

9:47

division. approach somebody on your diversity equity

9:50

and inclusion team who you might know

9:52

less about. If. Those people are

9:54

the same person. like Lucky you.

9:56

That's awesome but I would say

9:58

signing somebody that. Feel comfortable talking

10:00

to as a first step. Will. Really

10:03

help you can it just gets

10:05

sick the phillies out to some

10:07

extent and and remove some of

10:09

the anxiety as a stepping forward

10:11

into lesser known party organizations. Yeah.

10:14

That makes a lot of sense. I

10:16

love that and that cause related to

10:18

finding an ally at work with one

10:20

of our first ones. They're absolutely. That

10:22

was kind of. My experience was there

10:24

was one coworker who's about my same

10:26

age. she's actually couple years younger than

10:28

me. And. I can just sort of clocked.

10:31

I think this guy's gonna get it

10:33

and so he was kind of the

10:35

first one I talk to about. Both.

10:38

About the being by but also about being

10:40

non monogamous and he was very much like

10:43

i yeah that's people in my circle do

10:45

that to like I get it. And

10:47

so that was kind of. that. That.

10:49

Easy first step. and then was another

10:52

coworker who I had a good rapport

10:54

with, but who is little older than

10:56

me and tell us softly. Was.

10:59

Like well if you know his this thing

11:01

because I do this podcast and I'd mention

11:03

that some like well let me tell you

11:05

about of i cast. And so

11:07

kind of gave him this like it's not a

11:09

thing I talk about at work. I am cautious

11:11

about it. I don't want people to be uncomfortable

11:13

because of it. And his reaction

11:15

was kind of like a good he

11:18

went listen to the podcast and then

11:20

few days later was like a sincere

11:22

shows like oh god I assess he

11:24

said. I. Know what you're so

11:26

worried about? or as a as a totally

11:28

fine this is no big deal which I

11:30

think simultaneously is really nice of him and

11:32

also means he doesn't get it. right?

11:35

That's the sort of caution that. I.

11:37

Feel about it. but then just recently

11:39

had this conversation with Hr. now to

11:41

kind of printed out further and start

11:43

talking to them about the nondiscrimination language

11:45

and or employee handbook and and things

11:47

like that. That's really great

11:49

and that's a nice sequences you think

11:52

about it which is somebody easy you

11:54

assume and his aunts. Or. Popularity has

11:56

some context, someone who might not.

11:59

and is a little more testing the waters and

12:02

then somebody who you might not actually really

12:04

know but who has both

12:06

usually the training experience background

12:09

and authority to do something about

12:11

this within the workplace setting. And so,

12:14

I think that's a great playbook. You

12:16

know, not everyone will have all three

12:18

of those folks in their organization and

12:20

I just want to acknowledge

12:22

that. Not everyone feels chummy

12:24

with folks at work or personally comfortable

12:26

or you might work in an environment

12:28

that's more conservative and you kind

12:30

of get that impression. And

12:33

in that case, I do think that approaching

12:35

somebody who has the training

12:37

and background to understand that what

12:39

you're doing is disclosing something that

12:41

is personally and potentially even legally relevant

12:44

to you could actually be

12:46

a first move that's also a good idea.

12:48

So, I just want to say there are

12:51

different paths depending on your organizational context and

12:53

going to somebody in your human resources

12:56

department or your diversity, equity and inclusion

12:58

department if you have one. If

13:01

you don't have that friend at work where you're like, hey,

13:03

I bet they kind of get it. I think

13:05

it's also a really great first step. So, I want

13:07

to emphasize that if you don't feel that way but

13:09

you do want to start this process that

13:12

human resources can be a really wonderful place

13:14

to start. And I also want

13:16

to acknowledge that there's a huge range of

13:18

people who work in human resources in

13:20

terms of their ideology, their knowledge, their

13:22

background. Something we're working on at Open

13:24

is actually working with people who do

13:27

training for people in human resources

13:29

so that once you go to that person, they have

13:32

the context and you're not in the position to have

13:34

to educate them but we're not

13:36

there yet. And so, I just want to acknowledge

13:38

that's why we have these great fact sheets. We'll

13:40

make sure and go along with

13:42

this podcast so that you are equipped

13:44

to do some of that education work

13:47

because at this point

13:49

in our social movement, we can't rely

13:51

on even people in human resources to

13:53

have that knowledge. So, feeling

13:55

comfortable with some of those statistics,

13:58

with some of the history. around

14:00

LGBTQ rights, how organizations

14:02

have shown up to support employees who come

14:04

out in other ways can feel

14:06

really empowering before you go into a

14:08

conversation with someone who probably

14:11

will have the training, education, and

14:13

background to understand what you're saying once

14:15

you put it in that context. Yeah.

14:17

So I actually had a question about that. When

14:20

looking at the Open

14:22

Workplaces Toolkit, there's a

14:24

ton of information in there. And

14:27

it's great, but when I was preparing to

14:29

go into that call with our VP of

14:31

HR, was trying

14:33

to figure out where to start, I guess,

14:35

kind of what's the entry point to not

14:37

feel like I'm giving a bunch of preamble

14:39

or just giving her a homework assignment and

14:42

kind of expecting her to do it on

14:44

her own of just, hey, read this, this

14:46

is important. And I

14:49

think that it went well, but

14:52

I don't even know how I structured it. That kind of blacked out

14:54

for a little while, I guess, while I was giving

14:56

some information. So I'm just curious,

14:59

where would you even start with

15:01

that conversation with someone in HR, someone

15:03

who has more, it's less

15:05

of just about a personal connection and more like

15:07

actually want to talk about this officially at work?

15:10

So for context, I've worked in two different

15:12

human resources departments, one

15:14

at a large tech company and one at a large

15:16

healthcare company. So very different

15:19

environments, one very old company, one

15:21

quite new company, younger. And

15:24

my experience working with HR

15:26

is that people by and large are quite

15:29

well-intentioned. They actually really want to do right

15:31

by the people who take the time to

15:33

schedule a meeting with them and

15:35

that they don't always have the

15:37

context or information. So that's why

15:39

we, that's, etc. It's helpful,

15:42

but in the end of the day, people

15:44

care about the person in front of them. And

15:47

what is the experience you're having if you

15:49

have decided that you're going to open up personally, not

15:52

just to do some advocacy work on behalf

15:54

of others? Something that I would

15:56

do if I were in this position is

15:58

say I was in a conversation. conversation this

16:01

week where my manager was doing this

16:03

coffee chat with all of us at the beginning of

16:06

our team meeting and asked everyone to

16:08

go around and share something that they did this past

16:10

weekend. This is a totally

16:12

innocuous seeming question and people shared about

16:14

their kids' birthday parties and baby showers

16:16

and all these things and I lied.

16:19

I lied about what I did this past

16:21

weekend because what I did this weekend was

16:24

spend time with my husband

16:26

and his partner and we

16:28

all did something together and it was

16:31

really meaningful but I act like I

16:33

hung out with some friends and

16:36

what it does and this is something I've told

16:38

people it makes me feel the way I felt

16:40

when I was still closeted as a pansexual. It

16:43

makes me feel like I'm still

16:45

worried and this was true but I'm going to

16:47

get seen on a date and

16:49

someone at work is going to think I'm doing

16:51

something immoral or wrong and those

16:54

things that fear, that shame, that

16:56

anxiety affects how I show up at work. It

16:59

affects the way I relate to my colleagues.

17:01

It affects my sense of being authentic and

17:04

it's making it harder and harder for me

17:06

to feel like my best self

17:09

here at work and I really care

17:11

about this organization and I really want

17:13

myself and others like me to feel like

17:15

they can answer the question, what did

17:18

you do this past weekend or how

17:20

are you spending your holidays in a

17:22

way that feels authentic and doesn't bring

17:24

that up sometimes once, twice, three times a

17:26

day. That's awesome. That's

17:28

great. I found that for

17:31

myself being a remote employee, there's

17:33

not that same sense of oh, just

17:36

what did we do last weekend but

17:38

where I ended up going with a starting

17:40

point was saying, hey, I

17:42

actually just attended this workshop

17:45

about Open Workplace

17:48

Toolkit and that got

17:50

me thinking about our

17:52

employee manual and I segued

17:54

from there into this putting

17:57

it outside of myself a little bit of saying,

17:59

yeah, I want to do that. I went to this talk from

18:01

this organization and one of the reasons they're

18:03

really pushing for this is because there aren't

18:05

any legal protections in place for

18:08

people who are polyamorous or non-monogamous. And

18:10

I kind of, I like

18:12

started with the other stuff before I

18:14

said the word polyamorous and non-monogamous to

18:16

kind of set the stage of like, this isn't

18:18

just me. I'm not coming

18:21

in, not having done my research, but I've

18:23

got some resources, I'm working with other people

18:25

doing this. And what I found

18:27

is that one, I think it kind of

18:29

helped with that soft start a little bit. And

18:32

then also, she was surprised

18:35

to realize that. She just, to her,

18:37

it just seems like, well, that should fall under

18:40

sexuality and sexual preference and those

18:42

protected classes we already have. And

18:45

so I thought that was, for

18:48

me, kind of a helpful way to bring it

18:50

up where it wasn't saying, hey, I have a

18:52

personal problem with this, but more, I'd like to

18:54

be able to share more. And I'd

18:56

like to help other people in the company feel

18:59

like they can be authentic, but we're not protected.

19:01

And so I feel like even if I put

19:03

out a call to put together a resource group

19:05

at our company, they're going to feel like,

19:08

well, I don't know if I should come forward to that

19:10

because that's not safe. And I think

19:12

her surprise at it not being a protected class

19:14

actually kind of helped motivate her a

19:16

little bit to say, yeah, I'm going to talk to the people

19:18

in charge of that part of the

19:21

employee handbook and see if we could get that

19:23

in or something like that. So

19:25

that was, I think, a helpful approach for

19:27

my company as well. And so I love

19:29

that example of your personal story or kind

19:31

of putting it outside of yourself a little

19:33

is another way. I think that

19:35

both of those approaches, depending on who you are

19:38

and where you work, coming from one angle

19:40

or the other will make a lot of

19:42

sense. So I

19:44

worked at a place that is extremely

19:47

people-first, human-centered, which I

19:49

loved. And I

19:51

felt in the context of

19:53

consistent leadership rhetoric saying it

19:55

matters to us a lot that you feel

19:58

you Can be your authentic self. They

20:00

are important aspects of your life with. With.

20:02

Your colleagues that starting there was

20:04

something a new would resonate with

20:07

the person who designs those policies

20:09

designs that approach said. This is all

20:11

in all of rhetoric is just figuring out what's

20:13

the message. You understand, who are you sending it

20:15

to and what will resonate with that person. And.

20:18

Then I I think back to when I

20:20

worked in Impact. And I I

20:22

didn't go through this process. I

20:24

didn't feel comfortable. A even though

20:27

isn't in some ways I'm at

20:29

more overtly progressive organizations, I think

20:31

the approach you're describing would have

20:33

been a lot more impactful because.

20:35

It was less so, lack of a better

20:38

word. Heart centered at Blue Shield or I

20:40

worked. We had a Ceo of who started

20:42

almost every. Conversation. Talking about

20:44

leading this allows and leading with the heart.

20:47

And I am Rica. You know that not. Happen

20:49

when I worked at sites and an Answer

20:51

to Feel has lots of other great quality.

20:53

As a that's not us or not, it's

20:55

just not that. The. Way the

20:57

organization is wired. And

20:59

so. I think part of why

21:01

I struggled excellent with putting together the tool

21:04

kit. And we're gonna say come up with another.

21:06

Version of it that's more interactive. Is.

21:08

That it's so much as how you

21:11

approach this depends on your organizational context,

21:13

both with already in place. And.

21:16

What the vibe is? To set me

21:18

up and. An insult to some

21:20

extent my my recommendation is.

21:23

To really think through. what Are You hear

21:25

Other people talking about? What he was here,

21:27

Leaders talking about what matters at this organization

21:29

and it sounds like a Set your organization.

21:32

And the idea has been

21:34

cease being protected. Been.

21:36

Shared for not feeling at

21:38

risk. Is something that probably is this

21:41

important. Are all Hr professionals? Does to be

21:43

clear. But. That that might be part. Of

21:45

that motivates them and and that

21:47

they they see themselves as being

21:49

in more as that protective orientation.

21:51

And and some organizations a lot of the

21:53

times older. Actually mark organizations

21:55

as as the had a long

21:58

time to develop organizational culture as

22:00

a specific area of focus have

22:02

this whole orientation towards the whole

22:05

person, authenticity, belonging and that's what

22:07

you're what you're seeing something out

22:09

of a tall and organization or

22:11

people organization so I tell you

22:14

have both a thing in a

22:16

great organization. But I would just

22:18

say you, you know your organization. Probably.

22:21

Better than than Chase or I do.

22:23

the for listening to their so. That's

22:25

part of that. First step is kind

22:28

of taking stock of. What

22:30

you think would resonate. And then those

22:32

two approaches starting with. Speaking.

22:34

To other people's experiences. And.

22:36

The Impact versus her own. Those are

22:39

two as of probably several options that

22:41

are available. I. Also think said.

22:44

Coming to that conversation with

22:46

this sense of and bringing

22:49

this up because. I

22:51

wanna be sure that I'm safe and

22:53

I am kind of acknowledging that I'm

22:55

taking a risk by even talking to

22:57

you about it is like simultaneously a

22:59

little scary because you're saying hey, I'm

23:01

aware that you legally could therapy for

23:03

this and I have no recourse for

23:05

it to buy it. I

23:07

think that more often the experience,

23:10

especially with someone in hr. Is

23:12

going to be. They'll come to and from

23:14

that place of oh gosh no like that's not

23:16

how we want you to feel. Absolutely. And

23:19

no, no, you're not disclosing it to them

23:21

for any reason other than. Seeking Protection

23:23

and as a kid in for Yourself and

23:26

Others vs. and I I think he talked

23:28

about this in the other episode only to

23:30

talk about this more. Sometimes less

23:32

peers or colleagues that are not

23:34

in the entire. Realm. There.

23:36

Is a worry fit and and know

23:38

us cases. Where this has happened that

23:41

you could be perceived as creating a

23:43

sec dynamic. With. The workplace. I

23:45

know that that's something that you know

23:47

as at as a pan sexual one,

23:49

then as as fear that I had

23:52

eaten in something out of ten sexual

23:54

fake set as a stereotype surround pan

23:56

sexual people and then you add on

23:58

poly and you know. I. Don't

24:00

have to tell viewers and listeners here

24:03

which to Syria tides are around pan

24:05

sexual polyamorous people sort of always out

24:07

you know are always out recruiting program

24:10

which you. Know we all know. I

24:12

hope you know there's There's no evidence to

24:14

support that. There's no reason to believe that

24:16

that's true and but it's also portrayed that

24:18

way in media. And so knowing that I.

24:20

Could be a risk when you talk to. appear

24:23

or somebody kind of out of hr,

24:25

but when you put yourself in that

24:27

framing of I'm coming to, and I

24:29

know that this is a risk. I

24:32

really want to do this specific action which

24:34

is add this to the handbook which is

24:36

why. We recommend doing that first. Is.

24:38

The proof is in the pudding. To some extent.

24:41

but you are. You. Are as

24:43

it and see why this needs. To Happen.

24:45

Because you can speak to your own

24:47

sphere and your own lived experience and

24:49

say. Without. This form

24:52

of protection people. Who might as

24:54

have as much power in the organization?

24:56

Stability. And they might not

24:58

feel comfortable. Coming. Even to you

25:00

much less to other people. So.

25:03

Actually want to go back to that

25:05

point about people assuming that this is

25:07

because you're talking about sex and the

25:10

My can. A classic. Answer.

25:12

To that anytime someone says why do you want

25:14

to talk about sex at work or why do

25:16

you want to talk about what happens in the

25:18

bedroom. Your. My cheeky response always

25:20

see see a person wearing a wedding

25:22

ring. My. Own immediately say why are

25:25

you telling me that Are having sex with This

25:27

person In fact, that even though. Society.

25:29

That's what we assume, and that's what

25:32

that means. Especially someone talks about having

25:34

a child, are trying to have a

25:36

child. That's like very explicitly telling you

25:38

we are house exercise Great aunt. But

25:40

we don't think of it that way

25:42

because it's so normalized and so. i'm

25:45

curious from the people that you've been

25:47

talking to and research you've been doing

25:50

what would you advise for how to

25:52

how to approach these conversations in a

25:54

way that makes it clear you're not

25:56

trying to talk about sex but without

25:59

falling into trap of protesting

26:01

too much or like seen

26:22

as more sexually available and says

26:25

I loved I will just say I

26:27

loved that when I got married people

26:29

stopped hitting on me in

26:31

the same way and they treated me

26:33

differently because I was suddenly owned by somebody

26:35

else which is its own history of

26:37

marriage we can go into and

26:40

obviously I don't think anyone consciously believes that

26:42

who I'm interacting with but they treat me

26:45

as if I'm I'm respected property to some

26:47

extent and in opening up you

26:49

lose that status to some extent and so I

26:51

just want to acknowledge that that might be what

26:53

some of the listeners here are considering and going

26:56

through. For me I think there's

26:58

there's gonna be two ways that come to

27:00

mind for approaching this one

27:02

is talking for yourself about

27:05

why it became important to

27:08

tell other people about this at work and

27:10

the analogy I might use is

27:13

you know when you go on one or two dates with somebody

27:15

you don't bring that up that often

27:17

with people you know you meet somebody

27:19

from Bumble at a coffee

27:21

and you never see

27:23

them again that's not news and and

27:25

that's true whether you're dating towards a

27:27

monogamous aim or you're dating you know within

27:30

the structure of polyamory but once

27:32

somebody becomes a significant part of your

27:34

life in community whether that's a

27:36

deep romantic connection or even a

27:39

really close friend or somebody is

27:41

your housemate or your family

27:43

member moves to town that's something

27:45

that becomes a part of your day-to-day life

27:47

in a way that's really

27:49

relevant and and about social

27:51

and emotional connection, care,

27:54

community, stability, consistency,

27:56

adventure and those

27:59

people matter. a lot to us

28:01

and not being able to share with

28:03

our colleagues about the people who

28:05

matter to us is as sad

28:08

as me not knowing about your kid

28:10

or your parents who are aging. It

28:13

matters to me to understand you

28:16

and I really want in turn for you

28:18

to understand me. That goes

28:20

to and this is the other alternative, right?

28:23

That goes to the literature, right? We have

28:25

tons of great literature coming

28:27

out showing that the top

28:29

five reasons that people engage

28:31

in polyamory have very little

28:33

to do with sex. They have

28:36

to do with growth. They have

28:38

to do with learning. They have to do

28:40

with connectedness, a sense of

28:42

stability and belonging over time. Those

28:45

are things all humans want and

28:48

so whether you start with others

28:50

and move to self or you start with

28:52

self and maybe move to sharing some of

28:54

those findings, I do think that for most

28:58

of the folks who listen to this podcast who

29:00

are engaging in multiamory or polyamory, that

29:02

sense of connection and depth and care

29:05

really is what motivates you to

29:08

in a lot of cases want to share about

29:10

this at work and I think that can

29:12

feel like a way of conveying

29:14

what you're describing without it feeling

29:16

defensive. Yeah, I like

29:18

the way that you talk about

29:20

approaching it from the positives

29:23

of when you say, you

29:25

know, this is why I want to share

29:27

this and the reasons you give are all

29:29

because these are important people in my life,

29:31

these are my relationships and making that analogy

29:33

to something anyone can understand

29:36

like I want to know if you talk

29:38

about your spouse being sick or your

29:40

kids or your parents or whatever and say, I

29:42

want to be able to do the same thing.

29:45

I like that you're not saying, I want

29:47

to talk about this and it's not because

29:49

of sex but you're saying, I want to

29:51

talk about it because of this reason so

29:53

that they get that sense of

29:56

why you'd even want to bring it up. I love

29:58

that, that's great. goes

30:00

back to the workplace just to

30:02

put a pin on it like why is this

30:04

relevant? Some people might be like why are you

30:06

sharing this? And especially with a

30:08

manager I think one reason it's relevant

30:11

is that if you are in a

30:13

polyamorous relationship and your partner does

30:15

get sick or something happens, it's actually

30:17

often important to be able to take

30:19

time off to care for them. There

30:22

are legitimate things that we currently

30:25

respect about people's lives

30:28

that don't currently extend to

30:31

people's partners beyond their monogamous

30:33

partner. And so if you

30:35

think about equity in the context of

30:38

management and being able to take the

30:40

time you need or use

30:43

the available resources that you have to care

30:45

for the people in your life, that is

30:47

highly relevant in the context

30:49

in particular of a manager-managee

30:51

relationship. In the

30:54

second half, we're going to go on

30:56

to talk about why employers should care.

30:58

So if you are the employer or

31:00

you just want to make a better

31:02

case to them, some of the reasons

31:04

why that really should matter to employers

31:06

both from an ethical and also a

31:08

financial point of view. And then also

31:10

what it is that you can ask your

31:12

company to do or what you could be

31:14

doing if you're in a position of power

31:16

in that company to make changes, things that

31:19

what are going to be the biggest impact

31:21

and also the surprising number of

31:23

effective things you can do for little or

31:25

no money on the part of the company.

31:27

So it's not creating some extra financial burden.

31:29

We're going to get into all of that

31:32

after we take a quick break to talk

31:34

about how you can support this show. This

31:37

show is made possible by our sponsors

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And of course, if you want

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exclusive communities, you can go to

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multiamory.com/join. Support for

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Sport. For multi emery comes

36:45

from paired. So I'm scrolling back

36:48

through my sister he in the paired

36:50

up with Chase and they're all kinds

36:52

of fantastic questions that we responded to

36:54

a little quizzes. And stuff like that. Now

36:56

I'm going all the way back to this one.

36:58

That ass. what's the last thing you. Screenshot

37:00

it and is kind. of

37:02

funny or offences. The. Last thing I

37:04

screenshot it, apparently. Was like my Virgin

37:07

Atlantic Flying Club account number for

37:09

some reason. And. Then this is this

37:11

is gonna give you a time and place of kind of.

37:13

When we answer this question the last thing that you screenshot.

37:16

A Jace was like your ticket to

37:18

go see the Barbie movie a have

37:20

ah a while ago. Yeah, those is

37:22

what I. Really appreciate about this app

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is that it's very easy go back

37:26

and forth between some questions that can

37:28

be very. Deep like one that we answered around

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37:32

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have conversations that so many of

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these have sparked really great conversations

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38:00

sometimes it's a heavier and more

38:02

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38:05

and silly, sometimes they're really simple

38:07

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38:12

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38:14

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happier relationship starts here. And

39:01

we're back. So before we

39:03

move on, let's quickly recap some

39:05

things from how we should approach

39:07

this process of coming out. Yeah,

39:10

so some steps that you can take,

39:12

maybe the most important one being to find

39:14

an ally or find someone

39:16

that you can talk to who is

39:19

trained to be able to listen to you

39:21

in a safe or

39:23

at least a safe enough sort of way.

39:25

So ideally, if you work for a company

39:28

that's large enough to have an HR department

39:30

or a DEI department, those can be good

39:32

people to turn towards. Also

39:35

keep track of the interactions. Keep an

39:37

eye on how it's going on, especially

39:40

if anything comes up around sexual harassment

39:42

or people being uncomfortable. Be sure that

39:44

you're keeping track of those talking to

39:47

HR about things as they come up

39:49

so that things don't get away from

39:51

you. Just to take

39:54

caution and be even

39:56

more careful than you

39:58

were before. about

40:00

discussing things like sexual acts

40:03

or any sexual conversations, that's

40:05

probably just a good best

40:07

practice in general after

40:10

you've come out. Just

40:12

so that nobody can assume,

40:15

oh, you're hitting on me or

40:17

you're doing something that is

40:19

sexual and you feel more comfortable now

40:21

because you're out, anything along those lines

40:24

that could get you in trouble for

40:26

any reason, just take caution, just be

40:28

prepared. And no, okay, I'm

40:31

not even going to go there in this

40:33

scenario with this person just because

40:35

I'm taking care of myself and

40:37

I don't want anybody to get the wrong

40:40

idea. It's okay to take it

40:42

slow. This isn't something that has to

40:44

happen overnight. Hopefully you're in

40:46

a position where you have

40:48

enough control over information that you're

40:50

able to take it slow, like

40:52

someone hasn't accidentally outed you or

40:54

things like that. But yeah, this

40:56

doesn't have to be a big

40:58

company-wide announcement. You don't have to

41:00

do your whole coming out process

41:02

in one day. Take your time. And

41:05

then also people are going to pick up

41:07

on how you're expressing this, how you're feeling

41:09

about it. So if you're

41:12

able to come in with this sense of

41:14

this isn't a big thing that everyone needs

41:16

to freak out about and this isn't a

41:18

big ask for the company, this is actually

41:21

a fairly little thing that just has to

41:23

do with people at this

41:25

company being able to live

41:28

their actual identity without

41:30

fear of repercussions, things

41:32

like that. So as we

41:34

talked about in that first half, the

41:37

first focus pretty much for

41:39

any workplace is on getting

41:41

some kind of discrimination or anti-discrimination

41:44

protections in the employee

41:46

handbook specifically about family

41:48

and relationship structure. And

41:52

just starting from that, that's a very small

41:54

thing to ask of a company. I don't

41:56

think that should set off any alarm bells

41:58

with HR departments. Maybe there's some red

42:00

tape they're going to have to go through to make it happen,

42:03

but if

42:05

they understand that this is coming

42:07

from a place of their employees,

42:09

and a lot of them, since

42:11

the numbers show it's at least

42:13

as many people as they have

42:15

that are LGBT, which is

42:18

a significant number. So like even if they

42:20

don't think they have the employees, they do. And

42:23

that those people will feel safer and more

42:25

invested in their company, and

42:27

it takes very little effort on their

42:30

part to just add that little section

42:32

to the non-discrimination part of

42:34

the handbook, and then also to include

42:36

that on job postings and things like

42:39

that to let the world know that

42:41

this is a safe place without needing

42:43

to come out and be like, we're

42:45

a proudly polyamorous company. It's nothing like

42:47

that. It's just saying, hey, we're not

42:49

going to discriminate against you because of

42:51

the way you do relationships or your

42:53

family structure. That seems like a pretty

42:56

simple ask. So starting from

42:58

there, now in the second half of

43:00

the interview with Dr. Lily Lamboy, we're going to

43:02

get into more of the

43:04

details about why companies should really care about

43:07

this. And then what are those

43:09

next steps to do after just

43:11

getting some protections in place in the employee

43:13

handbook is how do you start to change

43:15

the company culture and maybe

43:17

even changing things like benefits? How can

43:20

you start making changes in that direction?

43:23

So let's switch to the side of employers now. So

43:28

these things are all in the toolkit.

43:31

It's a fantastic resource. I've

43:33

been enjoying going back through it over

43:35

and over again, the different sections, looking

43:37

through things as it's being updated. Could

43:39

you give us maybe some highlights of

43:42

either if our listener is someone in

43:44

a position to make these changes at

43:46

their workplace or if they

43:49

want to incorporate that into their pitch to

43:52

HR or to upper management. Maybe you're at

43:54

a small company where you don't even have

43:56

a dedicated HR team. What

43:58

are some things that you think are a little bit different?

44:00

like top key points to bring up in terms of why

44:02

they should care. So diversity,

44:05

equity, and inclusion have become

44:07

almost so commonplace that we sometimes

44:09

don't think about their distinct meanings. But

44:11

if we break them down, one thing that

44:13

we know from research over the last

44:16

almost 40 years now is

44:18

that diverse teams broadly construed

44:20

right people from different backgrounds,

44:23

identities, educational, you know, understandings

44:25

make better decisions and that's because they

44:27

don't have as many blind spots and

44:30

they tend to notice things and they kind of

44:32

turn. I always think about it as

44:34

like a multi-sided cube that actually gets turned

44:36

around and considered by everybody. And

44:39

so instead of just being like, yeah, yeah, that

44:41

thing's a shape, whatever, people are like, oh, I

44:43

actually noticed that if you turn it this way,

44:45

you can see this other aspect of

44:47

the problem. And the other thing we know

44:49

from research on this is that

44:52

that does not happen. None of those

44:54

benefits happen if people don't

44:56

feel included and they don't feel

44:58

a deep sense of belonging. And that's why belonging has

45:00

become a big part of this conversation. And

45:02

so while there are

45:04

benefits sort of theoretically to

45:07

diversity, they're only realized when people feel

45:09

a sense of authenticity, belonging, and

45:11

connectedness at work. And

45:13

we typically measure someone's sense of inclusion through

45:16

survey responses around how people

45:18

feel in terms of authenticity,

45:20

comfort, and belonging participating in

45:23

their workplace. And so

45:25

a big part of why this matters

45:27

is that you can't get any of

45:29

those benefits in terms of this. I'm

45:31

happy to share studies and link them

45:34

here just showing the

45:36

financial benefits, the decision-making

45:38

benefits, the ways that boards

45:40

perform, teams perform, but

45:43

none of those accrue without that felt

45:45

sense of inclusion and belonging. And

45:48

the other key part here is

45:50

that a sense of inclusion is the thing that's

45:52

most strongly linked with employee engagement.

45:54

And employee engagement is the thing

45:57

that predicts retention and performance.

46:00

So if you care about talent, like

46:02

literally if you care both

46:04

about teams performing well broadly

46:06

construed and an individual joining,

46:08

staying with and performing well

46:10

in your organization's context, inclusion

46:13

is the key. And

46:15

so linking this back to

46:18

the data that we know

46:20

about non-monogamy, we know that

46:22

right now it's about as

46:24

likely that somebody is non-monogamous

46:26

as they are LGBTQ

46:29

and that there's a lot of overlap between

46:31

those communities. Proud member has

46:34

that overlap. And so

46:36

to the extent that people have already thought through

46:38

this and why it matters to create an inclusive

46:40

environment for other aspects of

46:42

sexuality, if you, you know,

46:45

this is sort of opening the Overton window, it's one way

46:47

to think about it. It's like the aperture is just

46:49

getting bigger. There's this thing

46:51

about sexuality that we just haven't been talking

46:53

about and we have missed, but that matters a lot

46:55

for people's lives. And the

46:58

big staff that really I kind

47:00

of can't believe it every time I read it,

47:02

but I just went back today and read the

47:04

Ugov study. I read the raw data that came

47:06

out February 2023 and it shows that 41% of

47:08

randomly sampled Americans

47:12

between 30 and 44 described

47:15

their current relationship as

47:17

something other than completely monogamous. Wow.

47:20

Right. Wow. Yeah.

47:23

Just stay with that, right? That's a lot

47:25

of people. And that includes

47:28

people across the political spectrum. It includes people

47:30

in all age demographics,

47:32

race, religion, different geos.

47:34

So it's really interesting

47:36

when you think about

47:39

especially the future of talent, if

47:41

that's the 30 to 44 subset,

47:44

we know that 50% of

47:46

Gen Z respondents describe their ideal

47:48

relationship as something other than monogamous.

47:51

And so a lot of what I know

47:53

employers are thinking about right now is the

47:56

future of work, the future of talent, and

47:58

how will we create that? workplaces

48:00

especially with a

48:02

lot of change going on about how people approach

48:04

work, about how people conceive of work. Why would

48:06

we work? They're not just working to

48:09

live at this point, especially

48:11

the younger generations. We care

48:13

that our work is aligned with something that

48:16

matters to us and we feel cared for,

48:18

included and a sense of belonging at work.

48:21

And so it is my strong belief that

48:23

in order to attract and retain talent going forward,

48:25

employers will have to make space for people

48:28

to talk about their partners and loved ones

48:30

who fall outside the monogamous paradigm. The

48:33

numbers are just too large for that

48:35

to not be a burgeoning conversation and

48:38

employers have the opportunity to be

48:40

a leader right now instead of one

48:43

that's lagging behind the conversation and catching

48:45

up probably 10, 15 years from now.

48:48

Yeah. I found that in

48:50

some of the conversations I've had and something

48:53

that I think would be effective, I'm curious

48:55

your thoughts, is assuming

48:57

that you work at

48:59

a company that at least doesn't want

49:01

to be actively homophobic or racist or

49:03

transphobic, assuming that which if you're in

49:05

that boat, you're all, I mean, get

49:07

out of there, find somewhere else to

49:09

be, right? That's a really

49:11

bad situation. But assuming

49:13

that they don't want to be those

49:15

things and maybe they're kind of oblivious

49:18

to it, maybe they're a little bit

49:20

conservative still, but at least they don't

49:22

want to be those things that bringing

49:24

up that the analogies between how companies

49:27

put protections in place for trans

49:30

people or LGBT people before

49:32

they were legally required to

49:34

and that they didn't want to be

49:36

left behind. Kind of get them a little bit

49:39

with the FOMO of, you know, you don't want

49:41

to be left behind here. It's

49:43

true. And those numbers are

49:45

staggering, right? The percentage of Fortune 500 companies

49:47

with policies protecting LGBTQ

49:50

discrimination grew from 4% in 1996 to 91% in 2019. Yeah,

49:56

yeah. Like that is

49:58

well within my lifetime. Right? And

50:00

same with gender identity discrimination, 3% 2002, 83% in

50:02

2019. Yeah.

50:07

That's huge. That even means that companies

50:09

that don't personally care about this

50:13

and actually might be utterly indifferent

50:15

if not somewhat hostile at some

50:17

point, the curve kind

50:20

of shifted. Right. And it became kind of

50:22

almost legally risky for them not to have

50:24

this in place versus a

50:27

stretch goal, something that they're doing to

50:29

be a leader. And so

50:31

we all, I think, have opportunities

50:34

depending on where you work to

50:37

engage those statistics and that rhetoric to

50:40

say, hey, this is going to happen

50:42

and we should be a part of

50:44

it and what an exciting opportunity. Yeah.

50:47

That's awesome. I also feel like, again,

50:49

going along with that, appealing to a

50:51

company not wanting to be the

50:54

company everyone's making fun of, not wanting to be

50:56

the one that we're going to look back at

50:58

and go, oh my gosh, I really like to

51:00

bring up, if you're talking to someone in HR, that

51:03

concept of part of why

51:06

I would like there to be some

51:08

protections in our employee handbook for this

51:10

is the fact that besides that there

51:12

aren't any, that people will,

51:14

because of the stigma, assume I'm

51:16

trying to talk about sex and might get weird

51:18

about that. And then I bring up, just

51:21

like they did when people first

51:23

started coming out as being gay or bi,

51:26

that everyone assumed that. And

51:28

then if I want to really drive

51:30

the nail in, I say much

51:32

in the same way that they used to

51:35

do with interracial marriage, saying, oh, this is

51:37

just a sex thing and not actually a

51:39

relationship. And that, I think, often gets

51:41

people to go, yikes, I don't want to be the

51:43

one we look back at like that because that just

51:45

seems absurd by our

51:47

modern standards. But not that

51:49

long ago, that was the case. And

51:52

it's still the case in some places. I don't

51:54

know that somebody born in the 1980s

51:56

would even know the term misogynation at this point.

51:58

I don't know that. term. It refers

52:00

to interracial marriage, right? And at some

52:03

point, like everyone, like everyone

52:05

in my dad's generation knew what

52:07

an anti-miscegenation law was. And

52:10

now you don't even know what that

52:12

term means. And that tells you there's been just

52:14

tremendous, you know, it can feel like we're never

52:16

making progress. I've been working in civil rights my

52:18

entire life and sometimes it feels like, God,

52:21

are we ever going to do anything? Is anything

52:23

happening? And then you look back to things like that.

52:25

And even to these statistics

52:27

around transgender and gender identity

52:30

protections that have occurred exclusively

52:32

in my adult lifetime. And

52:34

it makes me feel like, wow, we're really

52:36

doing something here. And we have the

52:38

opportunity to be a part of this next

52:40

wave of people being safe and people being

52:43

able to love who they love and be who they are. Awesome.

52:46

So as far as workplaces, putting some

52:48

things in place, I think step

52:50

number one is trying to get

52:52

some kind of nondiscrimination language in

52:55

place and then adding that hopefully

52:57

to job postings. But what would you say

52:59

would be the next steps in terms of

53:01

you don't feel like you're asking your company

53:04

to do something really expensive or really extra

53:06

just for you? What would

53:08

you say would be the next steps after that? You

53:11

know, depending on how your organization

53:13

works, but I think this is a

53:15

common one, either partnering with your

53:17

LGBTQ employee resource group if you

53:19

have one or doing this on

53:21

your own with a couple of

53:23

friends and allies hosting a

53:25

panel discussion. And that could,

53:27

I would suggest reaching

53:30

out to folks like the Multiamory

53:33

podcast, you know, folks like

53:35

AssetOpen or Modern Family Institute

53:37

or Chosen Family Law Center or, you know, I

53:39

know Irene Mourning was just on the show. There's

53:42

so many experts in this space who

53:44

can speak to both deep expertise

53:46

and research and in many cases

53:48

lived experience and can

53:51

take the limelight off of you

53:53

unless that's something you like and

53:56

give people both the knowledge and education

53:58

that they need. and ground it

54:00

in personal storytelling, which is what we know sticks

54:02

for people. And I've seen, you

54:04

know, I'll just speak to some of

54:07

my experiences with the trans community, which

54:09

is an area that I've worked in

54:11

for a long time. And we had

54:13

a lot of panels, performances, you know,

54:15

events that brought people from that community

54:17

who also knew a lot about how

54:20

to be a good ally to say

54:22

how to be a good ally. What

54:24

can you do if you care about this? What are

54:26

some things you might get wrong? And how can people respond

54:29

with grace and care and compassion? So

54:32

doing a small educational event

54:34

that feels approachable and engaging,

54:36

I've seen work wonders. I've

54:39

had so many people come up to me and be

54:41

like, I've never actually, I don't know that I've

54:43

met a trans person before today and now I

54:45

just did. And now I know that

54:47

actually I've probably met a lot of trans people and I

54:49

didn't even know it. And now

54:52

I feel more comfortable with the

54:54

pronoun thing, you know? And so

54:56

I think there's a version of

54:58

that for polyamory that could

55:00

be really impactful and pretty low effort

55:02

to produce in terms of budgeting, time,

55:05

etc. Awesome. And

55:07

then what about the next steps after that when we

55:09

talk about benefits or things

55:12

like that? I'll maybe name

55:14

a couple more low hanging fruit ones. Sure.

55:17

Sure. Because I think there are

55:19

a few. There's asking your existing DEI

55:21

training vendor. Many companies

55:23

have DEI training. And we're

55:25

actually working with Paradigm which is one of

55:28

the major training vendors that works

55:30

with so many companies across the

55:32

country to simply just

55:34

integrate an example about Nominogamy

55:37

when they do their DEI training. So

55:39

there's not a whole module on it.

55:41

It doesn't take a disproportionate amount of

55:43

time. It's just that one of the

55:46

three or four examples happens

55:48

to mention somebody who comes out at

55:50

work or happens to mention somebody bringing

55:52

two partners to an event. And

55:55

that gives people this sense of like, oh, this

55:57

is already happening. I guess I'm supposed to kind

55:59

of know about. And then they

56:01

can ask questions from the DEI vendor or from

56:03

you know, they can go look it up, understand

56:06

it better. So that's that's one thing

56:08

we recommend and the other thing, you know to

56:10

the bringing two partners to your holiday event, being

56:13

inclusive in your language, using

56:15

words like partners instead of spouse

56:18

because spouses only apply to married partner and

56:20

we know we don't have multiple partner marriage

56:23

and making clear that

56:25

there are opportunities for non-monogamous in place

56:27

to bring more than one partner to

56:29

an event like a holiday party or

56:31

a company picnic. I know that my husband

56:33

and I just attended our first wedding with

56:36

another partner and that was one

56:38

of the most like I've never felt

56:40

such a sense of being seen and cared

56:42

for and we met a lot of people

56:44

from like all around the country who were from really

56:47

different religious and political

56:49

backgrounds and just seeing their

56:51

response was was really validating and really moving.

56:53

And so companies I think have an opportunity

56:55

to do those things as kind of lower

56:58

hanging fruit. And then I'm happy

57:01

to speak to kind of bigger

57:03

boulders that I think once there's a company

57:06

conversation going on around this and you

57:08

have enough people who feel more equipped

57:10

and educated, there are really big

57:12

things on the horizon in terms of

57:15

expanding benefits to multi-partner

57:17

households. We know that

57:19

this has happened in only one place

57:21

that we know of which is Summerville,

57:23

Massachusetts which has recognized Laurel

57:25

Domestic Partnership and

57:27

there's also Cambridge, Massachusetts, Arlington,

57:29

Massachusetts. I'm actually from there so

57:32

point of privacy. But even

57:35

then, you know, there's a

57:37

really big question about what companies

57:39

do to implement that and integrate it

57:41

and so

57:44

what does it actually mean for a

57:46

company to pay extra

57:48

money for somebody to be on the

57:50

company insurance plan and why should

57:52

they do that? And we're

57:54

putting together some resources that open and

57:57

Modern Family around that doing some research

57:59

on the implementation in Summerville, it

58:01

costs almost nothing is what we're

58:03

learning so far. So I think part of what we're

58:06

going to do is produce more

58:08

data around the actual fiscal impact

58:10

of that so that people can

58:12

do more to advocate for benefits

58:14

extension because the

58:16

most major easy reaction people have

58:19

is that's going to cost hundreds of

58:21

thousands of dollars. Right. And

58:24

so far, our hypotheses and our

58:26

small amount of data is that that's simply not true.

58:29

Very similar to gender affirming

58:31

healthcare. There were very similar arguments made

58:33

when that first came out as something

58:35

people were asking for from their employers.

58:37

And we find that it's less than one cent per person

58:40

I think around there. I

58:42

can look up and send you that after this

58:44

but kind of knowing what people

58:46

might have as questions in mind but I

58:48

think benefits is the next frontier here and

58:51

that's why we're also working on the

58:53

healthcare side and working with insurance companies

58:56

to create easier ways for people to

58:58

actually be accepted as members.

59:01

So it's not it's somewhat like having

59:03

a new kid. No one

59:05

says when you have a new child like, oh my

59:07

god, it's going to cost the company hundreds of

59:09

dollars. You have a baby? And

59:12

so, you know, having that

59:14

in place and then also having something in place

59:16

that, you know, I know

59:18

a lot of companies have really great

59:21

requirements that mirror domestic partnership requirements where

59:23

you show that you've lived together or

59:25

you show that you're deeply interconnected in

59:27

a certain way. Maybe you have entangled

59:29

bank accounts, you make major

59:31

purchasing decisions together. So there's

59:34

a lot that you can do at the

59:36

company level to create

59:38

your own internal criteria for what

59:40

counts as a valid

59:43

complex long-term committed partnership outside

59:45

the boundaries of marriage or

59:47

monogamy. Yeah, I was actually

59:49

surprised to find out when I was first

59:51

going through the benefits stuff when I got

59:54

hired a couple of years ago and I

59:56

asked what does someone

59:58

have to be to count as this

1:00:00

partner for my benefits?" And

1:00:02

their answer was, nothing. I

1:00:05

was like, do they have to live with me or share a bank account?

1:00:07

They're like, no, they don't even need that. That means that you couldn't be

1:00:09

married to someone else though. And

1:00:11

so it was that like, oh, you won

1:00:13

points, then you also lost some points because

1:00:15

of that just, you know, being naive and

1:00:18

not even realizing that actually might be a

1:00:20

situation someone was in. It wasn't for

1:00:22

me, but it was kind of that like, oof, you

1:00:24

know, and I did bring that up with HR when

1:00:26

I talked to them as well, just being like, hey,

1:00:28

this is this little example. I know

1:00:30

no one means anything harmful by it, but

1:00:33

you know, that sucks that that language is there. And I

1:00:35

also don't even know if it's true. I don't know that

1:00:37

it's true either. Well, just assume you're not

1:00:39

married to someone else. I'm like, is that actually how

1:00:41

this policy works? Or did you just say that as

1:00:43

a joke because that's an absurd concept to you? I

1:00:46

don't know. Yeah. So yeah, there's

1:00:48

some question marks there. But

1:00:50

yeah, I love that it's like

1:00:53

being able to put together resources to say, hey,

1:00:55

this isn't actually going to cost you as

1:00:58

much or maybe any compared to what

1:01:00

you thought. And here's a way that you can better

1:01:02

be providing for your employees. That's right.

1:01:05

And if you, I mean, not to get too wonky

1:01:07

about this, but if you think about it overall, you

1:01:09

think of who's engaging in an alma mater

1:01:11

right now, it's younger people. And

1:01:14

it's people who tend to also be in

1:01:17

contingent or more, you know, risky positions

1:01:19

with regard to accessing healthcare. And so

1:01:21

putting folks on good healthcare

1:01:24

who also don't bring a lot of

1:01:26

risk to the risk pool is good

1:01:28

for everyone in our society. And so

1:01:30

there's not only that it

1:01:32

doesn't cost as much as actually kind of

1:01:34

part of the whole healthcare mandate, that's the

1:01:36

spirit of it is that we want people

1:01:38

to be getting preventive healthcare, to be getting

1:01:40

access to the kind of quality healthcare that

1:01:42

usually only companies provide in this country. Yeah,

1:01:46

awesome. I would

1:01:48

make sure that you look

1:01:50

up your handbook's definition of

1:01:52

sexual harassment and

1:01:55

make sure you're fluent with that. It

1:01:57

doesn't differ that much, but it does somewhat state

1:01:59

to state. company to company, so making

1:02:01

sure that you understand what would

1:02:03

count as evidence that you were sexually

1:02:06

harassing somebody and what to look out

1:02:08

for in terms of, you know,

1:02:10

if this is going to come to you, I

1:02:12

really would make sure you understand that. And then

1:02:14

if you don't, you talk to somebody

1:02:16

in HR preemptively and you say, hey, I

1:02:18

actually don't really quite get this. Can you answer some questions

1:02:20

that I have? Because I don't

1:02:23

know that actually everyone even always understands

1:02:25

that. And you know, there

1:02:27

are things that constitute harassment like, you

1:02:29

know, repeatedly commenting on somebody's appearance, you

1:02:31

know, asking them if they want to

1:02:33

go to coffee multiple

1:02:36

times even though they say no every

1:02:38

time, right? These are subtler things that

1:02:41

might not be obvious to everybody

1:02:43

but within a broader context and pattern

1:02:46

do actually constitute sexual harassment

1:02:49

in certain contexts. So just

1:02:51

knowing that you can and should

1:02:53

document those things if they happen to

1:02:55

you and know that

1:02:58

there's some possibility that somebody is going

1:03:00

to make that accusation against you and

1:03:03

either have somebody else around when

1:03:05

you're talking to them can be a

1:03:07

really important, you know, piece of having

1:03:09

somebody else who observes the dynamic, ideally somebody

1:03:11

that you trust. You know, if you do

1:03:13

start getting somebody who's coming on to you

1:03:15

or being a little weird or creepy in

1:03:18

your presence both to protect yourself in the

1:03:20

moment and to protect yourself in terms of,

1:03:22

you know, making a case that that's

1:03:24

happening and that it didn't start happening

1:03:26

until you told them about your identity.

1:03:28

Not that it really matters but I

1:03:30

think tracing it and being able to explain I

1:03:33

suddenly was perceived as available or interested in

1:03:35

a way that I am not and I

1:03:37

did not say anything other than

1:03:39

I have another partner or this

1:03:42

is a part of my life. It's

1:03:44

important to document these things and I

1:03:47

know that that sounds tedious and

1:03:49

or stressful. I just want to

1:03:51

acknowledge that but that is also

1:03:53

kind of how from an

1:03:56

HR perspective they are only empowered to do

1:03:58

something when there is a penalty. detailed

1:04:00

information about what's going on and so

1:04:02

that's the first thing I would say.

1:04:05

The second thing I would say is this

1:04:07

will be an ongoing process especially if you

1:04:09

decide to share this with more than just

1:04:11

the person in HR or more than

1:04:13

just your one trusted colleague and

1:04:16

so having your allies at work really

1:04:18

identifying the people who do a deeper

1:04:21

dive, maybe they read, we've

1:04:23

had friends who are monogamous who we are in

1:04:25

a poly secure book club with, right? It's

1:04:28

a great book and they said, wow, we've learned so

1:04:30

much about how to navigate our own

1:04:32

new marriage from this book. So there

1:04:34

are ways to invite people into learning

1:04:37

more about polyamory that

1:04:39

also really can say, hey, there's actually just a

1:04:42

lot of great insights about how to develop

1:04:44

trust, how to develop communication, how

1:04:46

to develop skills around boundary

1:04:49

setting that have come

1:04:51

as innovations from polyamory

1:04:53

and psychologists working in that space. So

1:04:56

there are ways to invite your allies in and then

1:04:59

those folks become part of a little

1:05:01

squad or a team who can both

1:05:03

look out for you and also can

1:05:05

do some of that combating myths and stereotypes

1:05:08

work for you. That's

1:05:10

one of the best things you can do as an ally. I

1:05:12

do this work a lot as a

1:05:14

white person. I talk a lot about

1:05:16

my own race. I demonstrate comfort with

1:05:18

whiteness. I make sure

1:05:21

people see me discussing race in

1:05:23

a way that reframes it

1:05:25

and makes it, you know, more

1:05:27

comfortable while still actually challenging myths

1:05:29

and stereotypes and bringing in relevant

1:05:32

information. And I think

1:05:34

one step you can take is finding those

1:05:36

folks whether they're at work or they're just

1:05:38

in your life that go along

1:05:40

that journey with you and can do some of

1:05:42

that work with you so it doesn't feel

1:05:44

like it's all on you. Awesome.

1:05:47

Yeah. I think a

1:05:49

final thing I'll say just on the sexual

1:05:51

harassment perception piece, I hate to

1:05:53

say this but just being a lot more careful

1:05:55

about what you do share

1:05:57

about your private life once this is done.

1:06:00

part of your known universe

1:06:02

like me as a married person when

1:06:05

I'm assumed in lots of context to be

1:06:07

monogamously married, I can get away

1:06:09

with all kinds of risque jokes because I'm a

1:06:13

bordering on middle-aged, white,

1:06:15

moderate-seeming person who's

1:06:18

just making a little click.

1:06:23

And that's a very different context

1:06:26

suddenly than when people fill in

1:06:28

gaps as you've well

1:06:30

know about what it means to

1:06:32

be polyamorous with all their own

1:06:34

projections, fears, fantasies, etc. And

1:06:36

so know that that's happening to you potentially

1:06:39

and be thoughtful about the kinds of jokes

1:06:41

you make or what you share about what

1:06:43

you did over the weekend because

1:06:45

a little piece of information can cause

1:06:48

an inference for that person that's

1:06:50

not substantiated by what you said

1:06:52

but the logical leap is in

1:06:54

their head and that's how they see you

1:06:57

now. And so I'm sad that

1:06:59

that's where we are and I

1:07:01

just want to help all of us be

1:07:03

safe as we navigate this big transition. Yeah,

1:07:07

I'm glad you brought that up because that's

1:07:09

something I've found when talking to people about

1:07:11

this topic. I find that

1:07:14

the first concern that comes to mind does

1:07:16

tend to match up a lot with gender.

1:07:19

So I think for you as a

1:07:21

woman, it's very much that coming in

1:07:23

with this worrying about receiving sexual harassment

1:07:25

because of this identity and for me

1:07:27

as a man, my mind

1:07:30

right away goes to I'm scared

1:07:32

that someone's going to think that I'm saying

1:07:35

something to them whether they're a man or a

1:07:37

woman doesn't matter but that they're going to accuse

1:07:39

me of that. And so I

1:07:41

think that's also worth being aware

1:07:43

of in going into that. Emily

1:07:46

has talked about that on the

1:07:48

show before about with customers at

1:07:50

her workplace if they know that

1:07:52

about her identity, them being weird

1:07:55

to her too. So it's not just

1:07:57

coworkers but kind of being aware of all

1:08:00

those other factors that have to do with you,

1:08:02

I think also just your physical presence,

1:08:05

race, all sorts of thesis that

1:08:07

go with it, right? If you're, you know,

1:08:10

a larger human versus a smaller human, people

1:08:12

perceive different amounts of threat from you regardless

1:08:14

of your actual behavior. So there's a lot

1:08:16

of things to consider in

1:08:18

terms of which ones of these

1:08:21

might come up more for you. I just,

1:08:24

I'd want to encourage listeners to just really be aware of that.

1:08:26

Yeah. And we actually have some

1:08:29

information in the toolkit around intersectional

1:08:31

identities and how different

1:08:33

impacts fall on

1:08:36

different intersections of identities. So

1:08:38

if you are from

1:08:40

a poorer background, if you are,

1:08:42

you know, not white,

1:08:44

and especially if you're black or brown

1:08:46

in this country, making these

1:08:49

kinds of brave

1:08:51

statements can have a very

1:08:53

different impact and implication. And

1:08:55

so I just want to recognize that,

1:08:57

you know, there's different decisions

1:08:59

that are right for everybody

1:09:02

and just being aware. I know you talked about

1:09:04

this on the last episode of kind of not

1:09:06

just what those risks are abstractly, but

1:09:09

how those risks might intersect with your

1:09:11

own identity and how people

1:09:14

perceive you as a result of those

1:09:16

identities that those risks might change. And

1:09:18

so I'm really glad you brought that

1:09:20

up because it's definitely, you know, these

1:09:22

things are very real,

1:09:24

maybe not in all the ways we care

1:09:26

about expressing ourselves, but definitely about the way

1:09:28

that people perceive us. Yeah.

1:09:32

One of the important steps I think that's worth

1:09:34

keeping in mind when coming out at

1:09:36

work or even in any area of your

1:09:38

life is also to celebrate

1:09:41

when it goes well. That's right. I

1:09:44

said that you put this up too. Yeah.

1:09:47

Yeah. Because it's so easy to get caught

1:09:49

up in all the worry and the fear and like, oh, but they

1:09:51

still have these misconceptions about me,

1:09:54

whatever. But it's like any part

1:09:56

of it that goes well, you know,

1:09:58

like I mentioned with my coworkers say. saying, I don't know

1:10:00

why you feel like you need to keep

1:10:02

this secret or whatever. I'm like, okay,

1:10:05

I don't totally agree with that, but

1:10:07

that's a success. At least for him, this

1:10:10

is not a big deal, right?

1:10:12

And that's cool because in that case,

1:10:14

I wasn't sure what his reaction would

1:10:16

be. Celebrating those and then one that

1:10:18

I wanted to share and I'm curious

1:10:20

if you have any stories like this,

1:10:22

but I actually just recently had a

1:10:24

conversation with a coworker who I was

1:10:27

actually one of the people who interviewed him when

1:10:30

he was getting hired and

1:10:32

he wears nail polish. That's just

1:10:34

a normal everyday thing. And

1:10:37

he was telling me,

1:10:39

after maybe working at the company for a year,

1:10:42

he told me when I had

1:10:44

my interview, he's like, I was so terrified

1:10:47

of the fact that I was wearing nail polish

1:10:49

that I almost took it off. I was almost

1:10:51

like too scared to do this. I was talking

1:10:53

to my friends about it and I decided not

1:10:55

to. And then I had

1:10:57

the interview and then when I looked you up,

1:10:59

you meaning me, he's like, and

1:11:01

I saw that on your LinkedIn, you

1:11:03

talk about your podcast and on your

1:11:05

podcast, you're out as polyamorous. He's like,

1:11:08

I thought, you know what? Okay. I

1:11:10

feel safer about this totally unrelated part of

1:11:12

my identity because you were

1:11:15

open about yours. And in that case, I'm not

1:11:17

even super out at work, but on the

1:11:19

internet I am. So even just that

1:11:21

for him was like, wow, this is a

1:11:23

place where I can feel safe, which

1:11:26

is really cool. Yeah. I will

1:11:28

share that while I wasn't kind

1:11:31

of on the stage out in

1:11:33

public around polyamory at Blue Shelf

1:11:35

of California, I was

1:11:37

very vocal about both experiencing

1:11:40

mental health issues. And I actually

1:11:42

told the entire company that I

1:11:44

was going on a mental health

1:11:46

leave when I experienced COVID induced

1:11:48

anxiety and depression. And it

1:11:51

kicked my really, bad pre-existing chemical

1:11:53

imbalances back into gear. And I

1:11:55

took six weeks off supported by

1:11:58

the company. And

1:12:00

I told everyone that. I sent a

1:12:02

note and I wanted them to know,

1:12:04

this is a policy we have. Here's

1:12:07

how I did it. Here's who

1:12:09

supported me. Literally everyone

1:12:11

was excited for me. Not

1:12:13

excited, that's the wrong word. Supportive, kind, caring,

1:12:16

reached out, made sure I was doing

1:12:18

well, happy when I came back, covered

1:12:20

me while I was gone. And I had

1:12:22

a lot of people reach out to me to say I didn't even

1:12:24

know we could do this. I've helped

1:12:27

multiple people engage with that process since.

1:12:30

And the other one I'll share is that I

1:12:32

was really out for the first time in my life

1:12:34

as out and proud as pansexual. And

1:12:37

I was really vocal about that and I was

1:12:39

the only, I think I was

1:12:41

the only person at the director

1:12:43

plus level who identified as bi

1:12:45

or pansexual, maybe in the history

1:12:48

of the company. I don't

1:12:50

know that I know of that anyone I talk to know of. I

1:12:53

was once sitting in the lobby and you know,

1:12:56

we were just returning to work, didn't go into the

1:12:58

office once. And this

1:13:00

woman probably around 60 came

1:13:02

up to me and she said, are you Lily

1:13:05

Latboy? And I said yes. And she was in

1:13:07

tears and she said, I had

1:13:09

never met someone else. I'd

1:13:11

never in my whole life had

1:13:13

somebody at work or in my

1:13:15

life just say I'm a proud

1:13:18

bisexual and I, this

1:13:20

is who I am. And it's a really important

1:13:22

part of my identity and it made me

1:13:24

be able to come out to

1:13:27

my family and consider dating and

1:13:29

thank you. And I'd never met this person

1:13:32

before. Wow. And

1:13:34

I share that because it's so

1:13:36

worth celebrating and I

1:13:39

like to hope and think that for every

1:13:42

person who takes this brave step, it opens

1:13:44

up space. I think of it as kind

1:13:46

of creating some shade and the

1:13:48

shade gets wider and wider and

1:13:50

we're not all just out baking in the sun

1:13:52

together and not able to do

1:13:55

anything about it. We're able to relax, see

1:13:57

ourselves move in and out of

1:13:59

the sun. sun and the shade and

1:14:01

be comfortable. So thank you for bringing

1:14:03

that up because it really does matter

1:14:05

and that's Harvey Milk's whole thing, right?

1:14:08

That these social movements, it

1:14:11

all changes when people have a personal connection. Awesome.

1:14:14

Yeah. So where can people

1:14:16

find more about you, about OPEN and the

1:14:18

Modern Family Institute and to get all of

1:14:20

these resources and links to these studies you've

1:14:22

been talking about? So I

1:14:25

am the director of the OPEN

1:14:27

Workplaces Initiative at the Organization for

1:14:29

Polyamory and Ethical Nominogamy, just

1:14:31

a fantastic advocacy organization operating out

1:14:33

of the Bay Area but working

1:14:35

globally and we have a

1:14:38

website. Hopefully we'll link

1:14:40

it here on the

1:14:43

website but it's open-love.org-openworkplaces.

1:14:45

So pretty easy to find, pretty sure

1:14:47

that if you just type in OPEN LOVE OPEN

1:14:50

WORKPLACES, you'll probably find it on Google.

1:14:53

And that has the toolkit which we've

1:14:55

been talking about on this episode which

1:14:57

goes through everything from some of the

1:14:59

legal considerations to the data that we've

1:15:01

been talking about to some of the

1:15:04

scripts for how you approach this, what

1:15:06

to ask for and we'll

1:15:08

be continuing to evolve that. So

1:15:10

if you have feedback on how it could be even better,

1:15:12

we also appreciate hearing from you

1:15:14

and there's an easy way to do that on the

1:15:16

website because this is the only reason we have this

1:15:18

is to make this easier for you to open

1:15:20

up at work. So to the extent that it's

1:15:22

helping people, that's great and to the extent that it

1:15:25

could be even better, we would love to know. We're

1:15:27

also starting to collect stories of people

1:15:30

who have opened up at work. I

1:15:32

think to your point, Jace, we don't

1:15:34

know that much right now about how

1:15:36

it goes and I think we

1:15:38

have more fear around it than may

1:15:40

potentially be warranted. There's

1:15:43

a lot of anticipated stigma. There's

1:15:45

a great sociologist at Harvard currently doing

1:15:48

research on this that I'll make sure that I send

1:15:50

to you showing that people really anticipate how scary

1:15:52

this is going to be for good reason.

1:15:55

And this is what we want to test

1:15:57

and we have a hypothesis that actually once

1:15:59

people do go through this process that

1:16:02

on balance, we hope and expect that

1:16:04

people will have positive experiences and be

1:16:06

able to move this work forward. But

1:16:09

we don't know right now. So part of

1:16:11

what we'll be publicizing on the open website

1:16:13

and this is a collaboration with the

1:16:16

organization that I co-lead along with Heath

1:16:18

Schlesinger who's been on this podcast before.

1:16:21

We have founded an organization called

1:16:23

the Modern Family Institute which

1:16:25

really focuses on research and

1:16:27

public education. So whereas open

1:16:29

focuses on legislation action advocacy,

1:16:32

Modern Family really focuses on that

1:16:34

research, that public education and clinical

1:16:36

training and practice that allows us

1:16:38

to then figure out what we

1:16:41

should do on the advocacy side. So we're

1:16:43

doing a joint project surveying people about their

1:16:45

experiences opening up in the workplace so

1:16:48

that maybe next time

1:16:50

we talk Chase, I'm here and I'm

1:16:52

able to say, hey, nearly a hundred

1:16:54

people have done this since we last talked and

1:16:56

here's what they experienced and here's what

1:16:58

we learned about how to do this

1:17:00

even better instead of me just basing it

1:17:03

off of what I've observed and heard but

1:17:05

we really truly don't know other

1:17:07

than a few anecdotes right now. So that's one

1:17:09

of the ways you can stay engaged and potentially

1:17:11

help is that if you do or have

1:17:14

opened up at work, you know, we'd

1:17:16

love to hear from you and we've

1:17:18

created hopefully the easy way for you to

1:17:20

tell us about your experience and be

1:17:23

involved in the kind of early groundwork of

1:17:26

this social movement and this advocacy. Awesome.

1:17:29

Well, thank you so much for taking

1:17:31

the time to talk to us and

1:17:33

thank you to you and everyone on

1:17:35

the team for the Open Workplaces Initiative.

1:17:37

It's such a cool resource that's been

1:17:39

a long time coming and it's

1:17:41

so cool that it's actually out there in

1:17:43

the world and available for everybody. Thank

1:17:46

you. Thank you for using it. Thank you

1:17:48

for sharing your story. Thank you for being

1:17:50

brave and opening up and I just want

1:17:52

to end by celebrating you and your

1:17:55

bravery and I'm really excited

1:17:57

to hear how it continues to go. kind

1:18:00

of that shade you create for others in your path.

1:18:02

Awesome. Thank you. Thank you. We're

1:18:06

so lucky to have had the opportunity to

1:18:08

have Lily Lambois on the show. And just

1:18:10

to get to talk about

1:18:12

this amazing subject in general,

1:18:15

protections for consensual non-monogamy and

1:18:17

creating a culture of acceptance

1:18:19

at workplaces, it is this

1:18:21

ongoing process. And we are

1:18:23

still at the beginning of that process

1:18:25

in so many ways. And

1:18:27

all of you out there, if you decide that

1:18:29

it's really not safe for you to come

1:18:32

out or you just truly don't want

1:18:34

to take that risk, maybe you live

1:18:36

in a really highly conservative area or

1:18:38

work for a company that is more

1:18:41

conservative, that's totally fine. Don't feel bad

1:18:43

about that. You take care of yourself,

1:18:45

that is your top priority and that's

1:18:47

what you should be focused on. And

1:18:50

you know, maybe you'll never come out at work and

1:18:52

you still will be very happy to work there and

1:18:54

that's great as well. But for all

1:18:56

of you out there that do start to

1:18:58

open up, remember, get support, get

1:19:01

a good community, take it slow.

1:19:03

Coming out isn't something that you

1:19:05

do all at once. And

1:19:07

for all of you out there who are

1:19:09

maybe ahead of a company or

1:19:12

listening to this episode or thinking,

1:19:14

hey, there's something to be said

1:19:17

here about creating more inclusive language

1:19:20

in our workbooks, in our

1:19:22

workplaces, that's huge because I

1:19:24

know there's so many incredible

1:19:27

talents out there in the workforce and

1:19:29

there will just continue to be more

1:19:31

and more people who, you

1:19:34

know, maybe are marginalized in some way or

1:19:36

another or have an identity that is not

1:19:38

normative. And I just know

1:19:40

for myself, I recently interviewed someone who I

1:19:43

found to be just so, so

1:19:45

impressive and good for the job that

1:19:47

I was hiring for and I was

1:19:49

worried actually about my

1:19:53

employer being bigoted when it

1:19:55

came to their identities and

1:19:57

that really worried me. because

1:20:00

I didn't want that to be

1:20:02

their experience in the workplace that

1:20:04

I was in. So that's

1:20:06

just something to put out

1:20:08

there that a lot of people leave

1:20:11

their place of work because they don't

1:20:13

feel included or they don't feel like

1:20:15

they are safe there. And

1:20:17

you may be missing out on some

1:20:19

really great opportunities for really great workers

1:20:22

if you don't make your workplace more

1:20:24

inclusive. We also really

1:20:26

recommend that you get community support.

1:20:28

There's a couple of resources that we can

1:20:30

direct you to for that. So Open

1:20:33

has a Discord

1:20:35

server. Again, open-love.org

1:20:38

is where you can find more information about that. They're

1:20:40

a nonprofit that is working to advance the Naminogamy

1:20:42

movement. And their Discord has a

1:20:45

specific channel for people working on changing workplace policies

1:20:47

and culture. Jace is in that Discord channel.

1:20:49

So go to their site, click the Discord

1:20:51

link at the top, or you can send

1:20:53

them a message. You can also join

1:20:55

our Discord community. So we have one

1:20:58

public channel that's open that anyone can join.

1:21:00

If you go to

1:21:02

discord.multiamory.com, you can get information about

1:21:05

joining that. If you become one of

1:21:07

our Patreon supporters by going to multiamory.com/join,

1:21:09

then you can see all of

1:21:11

our private channels, including a channel

1:21:13

that we have specifically about workplace.

1:21:16

Also, this is something that

1:21:18

we've been speaking about a lot

1:21:20

recently. You know, we recently participated in

1:21:23

a local lecture series about Naminogamy and

1:21:25

the workplace. A few years ago, we

1:21:27

presented at Google. If you

1:21:29

think that your workplace would be open to

1:21:31

having us come to speak and present

1:21:33

on this topic, you can reach out to

1:21:36

us directly at info at multiamory.com, or

1:21:38

you can direct people to our website where

1:21:40

there's more information about getting in touch with us.

1:21:43

And our question of the week this week

1:21:45

on our Instagram stories is what

1:21:47

holds you back from feeling included

1:21:49

at work? We're really excited

1:21:51

to hear about those. And remember that

1:21:54

answering on Instagram stories is

1:21:56

anonymous. It's not posted for other people to

1:21:58

see. from you

1:22:01

and just getting a sense of what are

1:22:03

those pieces of ourselves that we don't feel

1:22:05

included because we have to hide those parts

1:22:08

of ourselves. Also if you want

1:22:10

to discuss this episode further, which I hope that you do,

1:22:12

going of course to

1:22:14

the open Discord server as well

1:22:16

as ours. In ours

1:22:18

we have an episode discussion channel

1:22:20

in addition to our workplaces channel

1:22:23

and that is a fantastic place to

1:22:25

engage with other listeners and discuss there

1:22:28

or in our private Facebook group you can

1:22:30

also start a discussion there to talk about

1:22:32

it. You can get access

1:22:35

to those groups and join our

1:22:37

exclusive community by going to multiamory.com

1:22:39

flash join. In addition

1:22:41

you can share with us publicly

1:22:43

on Facebook, TikTok, threads, X, or

1:22:45

Instagram. Multiamory is created

1:22:48

and produced by Emily Matlack, Dedeker

1:22:50

Winston, and me, Jase Lindgren. Our

1:22:53

production assistants are Rachel Shenowerk and

1:22:55

Carson Collins. Our theme song

1:22:57

is Forms I Know I Did by

1:23:00

Josh Anand from the Fractal Cave EP.

1:23:02

The full transcript is available on this

1:23:04

episode's page on multiamory.com. For

1:23:25

more information on TurboTax, visit turbotax.com.