0:03

It struck me as we were going through the

0:05

circle and I'm listening to these kids and parents

0:07

just be so sincere and talk about the ways

0:09

that they were hurt and why they did what

0:11

they did and how they wanted things

0:13

to be different. I realized, whoa, no

0:16

one is being leveraged to be

0:18

here. Everyone is choosing to

0:20

be here because they recognize the importance of

0:22

these connections. Everyone is a

0:24

deeply committed stakeholder to this situation.

0:26

I was so moved by it.

0:29

I want to do work like this where everyone wants

0:31

to be in this space, where everyone's choosing to be

0:33

here. It took a couple

0:35

of years to go from that breakthrough revelation

0:38

to creating this model, but I realized that

0:40

there was a niche out there that no

0:42

one was filling. No one was applying restorative

0:44

principles to intimate relationships as far as I

0:47

had seen. I thought,

0:49

this is a great model for creating

0:51

safe containers for conflict and Lord knows

0:53

people need it in these circumstances. Welcome

0:57

to the Multiamory podcast. I'm

0:59

Jace. I'm Emily. And

1:02

I'm Dedeker. We believe in looking

1:04

to the future of relationships, not

1:06

maintaining the status quo of the past.

1:09

Whether you're monogamous, polyamorous,

1:11

swinging, casually dating, or if

1:13

you just do relationships differently, we see

1:16

you and we're here for you. On

1:33

this episode of the Multiamory podcast,

1:36

we're joined by Jessica Fern and

1:38

Dave Cooley to talk about their

1:40

new book, Polywise. To check

1:42

out our first episode that featured Jessica,

1:44

listen way back to episode 291, where

1:48

we talked about her first book, Polysecure.

1:51

So quick introductions, Jessica Fern

1:53

is a psychotherapist, coach, and

1:56

certified clinical trauma professional. Jessica

1:58

is the author of Polysecure. Attachment, Trauma,

2:01

and Non-Monogamy, which I know

2:03

many of our listeners have

2:05

already read. And also the

2:07

author of the Polly Secure

2:09

Workbook, Healing Your Attachment and

2:11

Creating Security in Loving Relationships.

2:13

And now, PollyWise, a deeper

2:15

dive into navigating open relationships.

2:17

Jessica also works with individuals, couples,

2:20

and people in multi-partner relationships who

2:22

no longer want to be limited

2:24

by their reactive patterns, cultural conditioning,

2:26

insecure attachment styles, and past traumas.

2:30

And David Cooley is a

2:32

professional restorative justice facilitator, diversity

2:34

and privilege awareness trainer, and

2:37

bilingual cultural broker. He's

2:39

the creator of the Restorative

2:41

Relationship Conversations Model, which is

2:43

a process that transforms interpersonal

2:45

conflict into deeper connection, intimacy,

2:47

and repair. He specializes

2:49

in working with non-monogamous

2:52

and LGBTQ partnerships, incorporating

2:54

a variety of modalities,

2:56

including trauma-informed care, attachment

2:58

theory, somatic practices, narrative

3:00

theory, and mindfulness-based techniques.

3:03

And then, of course, it wouldn't be complete

3:05

without saying that we also have a book

3:07

which just came out recently, which is Multi-Amory,

3:09

Essential Tools for Modern Relationships. So I'd say

3:11

really just by all the books I've listed,

3:13

you should go get them all. It

3:16

covers some of our most used communication

3:18

tools, and you can find out about

3:20

that at multiamory.com book. And at the

3:22

end of the episode, we'll give you

3:24

links where you can go to get

3:26

books from Jessica and David. So Jessica

3:28

and David, thank you so much for

3:30

joining us today. Yeah, thank you for having

3:33

us. Thanks for having us. Oh my

3:35

gosh, it's just been a real pleasure

3:37

to go back and read this book

3:39

again this week. I was lucky to

3:41

get an advanced reader copy, but then

3:43

I also got to go back and

3:46

read it again this week. And there's

3:48

so many incredible nuggets of wisdom and

3:50

education sprinkled all throughout. And I wanted

3:52

to start off for both of you

3:54

to talk to us about how Polywise

3:56

came to be and sort of its

3:58

relationship to your... other book,

4:01

Polysecure? I originally thought this

4:03

would be my first book because I had a talk that

4:05

I was sort of bringing around to

4:07

different conferences that was based on my

4:09

research with clients and qualitative research that

4:11

I was doing of sort of trying

4:14

to answer this question of why are

4:16

people struggling with the opening up process

4:18

or people have been non-monogamous for so

4:20

long they're coming in with these big

4:22

hurdles and challenges. And my

4:24

publisher though initially was like, can you

4:26

do a whole book of attachment instead

4:29

of what would have been a chapter

4:31

on attachment? And we did

4:33

Polysecure first. And so then David,

4:35

how did you get on the bandwagon with this

4:37

project? Well as she

4:39

started to get into it, it became

4:41

clear that the work that I was

4:43

doing complimented sort of the work that

4:45

she was, you know, kind of the

4:48

things that she was wanting to highlight

4:50

for clients. I mean, we work with

4:52

a very similar demographics. And

4:54

so we were just seeing a lot of parallels

4:56

in the things that we were noticing in the

4:58

conversations we were having about the work before she

5:00

was even writing the book. So I think it

5:02

was also something that we had wanted to do

5:04

for a long time. We were

5:06

actually intending to collaborate on

5:08

our first book and then we just weren't

5:10

in a place to do that in terms

5:13

of our relationship. We were, you know, fresh

5:15

in kind of the divorce phase and

5:18

really apart and not really

5:20

there was no intimate connection at that point. I

5:23

think it just became kind of clear. I mean, you could

5:25

say more Jess, what you're thinking was why you brought me

5:27

on. Yeah, because there is sort

5:29

of a whole section for me of people,

5:31

one of the challenges they face

5:33

is all of this old conflict that hasn't

5:35

been dealt with in their relationship. And so

5:38

really felt like Dave's work was the answer

5:40

and needed a chapter in and of itself.

5:42

And then as I was writing, as we

5:45

were writing, there was just a lot more

5:47

story, personal story that we wanted to add

5:49

in this book. And it felt

5:51

great I think to have us sort of

5:53

share a bunch of our hardship through this

5:55

process. Yeah, so I know

5:57

it's interesting because the three of us has... earlier

6:00

this year also went through the whole

6:03

gamut of doing like book promotion interviews

6:05

and talking about our collaborative

6:07

relationship together. And in the history of the three of

6:09

us, we also have a history of, you know, like

6:11

being in a quad together, then a triad, then the

6:13

triad breaking up and stuff like that. And so of

6:15

course everyone wants to know, oh my

6:17

God, how did you get through that?

6:20

So I am curious, I know you touched

6:22

on it in the book a little bit,

6:24

but you know, what was the most important

6:26

things for the two of you to do to

6:28

shift your relationship to enter that place where you

6:30

could collaborate on something like this? Because I do

6:33

think for a lot of people, the

6:35

idea of being able to write a book

6:37

with their ex or produce a podcast with their

6:39

ex is just unthinkable. She

6:41

was asking for me to collaborate on that

6:44

first book. I think she was at a

6:46

very different place in our divorce process and

6:48

I actually needed space. And I think it

6:50

took about a year where we were living

6:52

across town, we were in Boulder, Colorado, we

6:55

were living on opposite sides of town and

6:57

really just connecting around the logistics of picking

6:59

up and dropping off our son. And

7:01

so I was really just needing

7:04

to heal and go through a lot of

7:06

the attachment separation stuff, figuring out kind of

7:08

what was my part, what was my stuff

7:10

to own. I went through a lot of

7:12

deep personal work after our

7:14

separation, which is really, really helpful. I wasn't

7:17

able to do that in the context of intimacy

7:19

with Jess. And then after about

7:22

a year or so, it just started feeling kind

7:24

of natural in those pickups and drop offs. So

7:26

by some we just I would linger longer, she

7:28

would linger, I'd start to be more curious about

7:30

what was going on for her intimately. And yeah,

7:32

she was in a

7:34

relationship that was getting more serious. It was a

7:36

live in relationship at that point, hanging out, having

7:38

dinner, getting to know him more. And then

7:41

the pandemic hit, and we were

7:43

all ready for a change. We needed to

7:45

pivot pretty dramatically to protect our son

7:48

from being in a situation that felt like wasn't going

7:50

to really work for him or be sustainable for us.

7:52

I had always wanted to get out of the country

7:54

and go to Latin America. And so we found an

7:56

opportunity to go to Costa Rica, we jumped on it,

7:59

we all went together. and we ended up

8:01

living in a house together, all four of us,

8:03

right out of the box for about what

8:06

was it, three months, three, four months, Jess?

8:09

Something like that, this tiny little two-bedroom

8:11

cabana. Yeah, I mean, it was

8:14

in the rainforest of Costa Rica

8:16

and it just really threw us

8:18

back into a very intimate dynamic

8:20

that really felt pretty useful, at

8:22

least between me and you, Jess.

8:24

At least for us. Yeah, right.

8:26

Right. It brought us back together,

8:29

you know, our co-parenting, co-authoring, and

8:31

living in the same house. That's

8:33

amazing. So, brought

8:36

back together in a romantic sense or

8:38

brought back together in more of we're

8:40

co-parenting and co-living and existing together as

8:43

friends and all of the great things

8:45

that happen from being in relationship. Exactly,

8:48

yeah. And you know, for years,

8:50

we were really good friends for

8:52

six years before we were together

8:54

for 10 years. So, the foundation

8:56

has always been this really deep

8:58

friendship and love as humans

9:00

for each other and sure, we got

9:02

divorced in that year. We did like

9:05

an unvaluing and released our

9:07

wedding vows and then we re-vowed and

9:09

we re-vowed to each other as co-parents

9:12

and as basically attachment humans like, I've

9:14

got your back in this life and

9:16

you've got your and that was really

9:18

powerful, I think, for both of

9:20

us. Yeah, there's kind of

9:22

been a karmic connection. I mean, it

9:24

really does, of all the relationships, that

9:26

really feels very karmic. I was just

9:28

going to say, I really appreciate, I remember our

9:31

first conversation when we

9:33

had you on the show, Jessica, how

9:35

it really helped to clarify this really

9:37

good language around the relationships around us

9:39

about whether we make someone into an

9:42

attachment figure or not. And I

9:44

know that sometimes we struggle in the

9:46

nomenogamous community wanting to reject this

9:48

traditional language around like, oh, is this relationship

9:51

quote unquote serious or not? Or is it,

9:53

I don't know, romantic or is it emotional,

9:55

right? And there are so many of

9:57

these really wonderful relationships that don't quite...

10:00

set any of those labels but looking

10:02

at it through the lens of attachment makes it make perfect

10:04

sense. At least to me. And

10:07

so I really appreciate that in that conversation. I

10:09

feel like that light bulb really switched on for me.

10:11

I like the label you use right now of

10:13

just attachment humans. Yeah, there's something interesting

10:15

for me. I think I don't know that we would

10:17

have... I don't know what it would have happened if

10:20

we hadn't had a child in the mix but the

10:22

commitment to be co-parents was really a glue

10:24

that kept us through some really rough moments.

10:26

You know, I can imagine my own attachment

10:28

system sort of wanting to do the avoidance,

10:31

see you later, you know, kind of a

10:33

thing after the separation because of the pain

10:35

but I'm really glad that that was the

10:37

case. That we did have a child in

10:39

the mix, that we were committed to co-parenting

10:42

and we put him first because

10:44

now I'm really am seeing sort of kind of what you were

10:46

alluding to Dedeker

10:48

is that there is something. There's something really

10:50

rich there now that I think I only

10:53

understand after the fact which is a level

10:55

of commitment that has nothing to do with

10:57

romance and everything to do with just what

10:59

does it mean to have someone's sort of

11:02

best interest at heart and feel connected to

11:04

them and there's just something about that connection

11:06

I would have had no understanding of if

11:09

we hadn't gotten to this point. Even

11:11

as you said, exes, right? For you

11:14

all to consider each other exes when

11:16

you've probably spent so much more time

11:18

in a different configuration that's more salient

11:20

than calling each other exes, right? So

11:23

it's interesting how people want a

11:25

central phrase, right? That that's what's

11:27

most important. Yeah, 100%. I

11:30

was with Jace in a monogamous

11:32

relationship and then a non-monogamous relationship

11:34

but we have been out of

11:36

relationship for far longer than we

11:38

were in one. So I am

11:40

trying to shift my narrative

11:42

around like these two people were my

11:45

exes or my exes do

11:48

more like they're two of my deepest

11:50

closest relationships in my life and two

11:53

of my best friends and two people that

11:55

I have a lifelong connection with because I

11:57

think that is more powerful and more important

11:59

for sure. Sure. Can we

12:02

compare notes on how the co-authoring process specifically

12:04

went for the two of you? I know

12:06

I learned a lot when the three of

12:08

us had to suddenly co-author and I was

12:10

really grateful that the three of us already

12:12

had this history of, you know, producing

12:15

a podcast together and running a business together for many,

12:17

many years. And so that did help us. But when

12:19

it came to the actual co-authoring process, I still

12:21

had a lot of lessons to learn and a

12:23

lot of my own control freak shit to work

12:26

out. So I just

12:28

want to hear what your experience was like. I

12:31

think it went overall pretty well, actually,

12:33

because we had done some other writing

12:35

projects previously and I think we had

12:37

worked out the kinks in that we

12:39

just knew how to work together. We

12:41

knew what our strengths were. We knew

12:43

what the highlights for each other. And

12:45

so overall, I think it actually went pretty

12:48

smooth. You know, we drove

12:50

each other nuts with certain over word

12:52

usages that each of us fall into.

12:55

Oh, yeah. Yeah, very familiar with this. I

12:59

think it's, you know, you're working with

13:01

the author of a highly successful book.

13:03

It's easy to lean in and trust

13:05

her and default to kind of her

13:07

voice in some places and just be

13:09

like, she knows what she's doing. But

13:11

I think even more than that creatively,

13:13

there's a way in which I appreciate

13:15

the way that she thinks. You know,

13:17

I like the way that she fills

13:19

out ideas. I like what she brings

13:21

to my writing. I have a very

13:23

academic kind of drier voice and Jess

13:25

is really, I think, does well with humanizing

13:28

that. And so I really get a

13:30

lot out of working with her

13:32

in collaboration. So we sort of went

13:34

through that initiation, that gauntlet of ego

13:36

threshing early on. And so I was

13:38

able to see like, okay, this is

13:40

where the ego shows up in writing.

13:42

And I definitely relate that to yet

13:45

control. And so going into

13:47

this ahead of time, knowing that we just needed to

13:49

really not have that be

13:52

upfront was helpful. Yeah,

13:54

having that little bit of experience first can go

13:56

a long way. Let's move on to talking about

13:58

some of the content in the book. book here,

14:00

I think, why don't we start off with

14:02

this first chapter? Dr. Justin Marchegiani

14:04

Yeah, I felt as though in

14:06

your last book, clearly, attachment

14:09

theory was the thread that held the

14:11

whole book together and specifically

14:13

attachment theory within non-monogamy. But this book

14:15

very much is about paradigm shifts and

14:18

that's sort of what the first chapter

14:20

in the book is all about. These

14:23

paradigm shifts that occur when you

14:25

have to change your ideas around

14:27

what relationships look like and especially

14:29

moving from a paradigm

14:31

of monogamy into non-monogamy.

14:34

So can you talk a little bit about

14:36

what paradigm shifts even are and then also

14:38

what they may look like in this context?

14:40

Dr. Jennifer F. work

14:45

around just using the phrase paradigm

14:47

and paradigm shifts and so paradigms

14:49

would be sort of a synonym

14:51

for our worldview, the lens

14:53

that we look through the world

14:55

with from everything though, right? Not

14:57

just our like personal philosophy like

14:59

how we are, who we are,

15:02

what we think is okay and

15:04

not okay. And in

15:06

the chapter, we even get down into

15:08

some of that nitty-gritty of how paradigms

15:10

can even shape our actual perception like

15:13

at a biological level, right? Or

15:15

a physiology of what we're actually aroused

15:17

by. You know, it's not

15:19

something to be underestimated making a

15:21

paradigm shift, right? The whole way

15:23

that you experience the world, yourself

15:25

and others is a pretty seismic

15:27

thing to even start to contemplate

15:29

for one, right? And then start

15:32

to make a shift. So

15:34

I really see that in my work with

15:36

people is this is a big deal to

15:38

live in a different paradigm of relationship,

15:41

right? And some of us make that transition

15:43

quite smoothly and some people do

15:45

not. And they really actually need

15:47

help with understanding what they're going

15:49

through can be a product of

15:51

what we say is like paradigm

15:53

shock, you know, similar to culture

15:55

shock of being in a different

15:57

country or culture. We can have

15:59

paradigm shift. I've never heard the

16:01

term paradigm shock and I'm just trying to wrap

16:04

my head around it. It makes a lot of

16:06

sense because it's a similar concept of culture shock

16:08

where just suddenly everything's just a little different from

16:10

how it was before. But in terms of paradigm

16:12

shock, how would you identify that if you were

16:15

going through it and what might you

16:17

do about it? Right, great question. I

16:19

mean, and not just sometimes a little

16:21

different. And I think that shift from

16:23

monogamy to non-monogamy, we see that most

16:25

when often in monogamy, the worst, the

16:28

absolute worst thing that could happen in

16:30

your romantic relationship is that your partner

16:32

is with someone else. And

16:35

that becomes this wired in

16:37

emotional reactivity, not just a

16:40

conceptual thing, right? It becomes

16:42

a fear. And then

16:44

here I'm in a different paradigm that says

16:46

I'm supposed to celebrate that my partner's with

16:48

someone else. How do I just do

16:50

that? How do I just wire myself

16:52

differently? I think people,

16:55

they start to almost feel like queasy.

16:57

They talk about feeling sick. They talk

16:59

about not knowing what's right or wrong,

17:02

like who they are, what they're supposed

17:04

to do. Dave, you might have

17:06

some input on this one as well,

17:08

right? Or a lot of shame even

17:10

for now the new paradigm that they're

17:13

trying to step into. And there's all

17:15

of this sort of monogamy hangover, right?

17:17

And like inner critic or guilt or

17:19

shame that's showing up. What I see

17:21

is someone can identify it too as

17:24

if on one hand they really resonate

17:26

with the ideas of non-monogamy, but then

17:28

they keep kind of getting pulled back

17:30

or deferring to very monogamous ways of

17:32

thinking like, but if I was enough,

17:34

then you only would want to be

17:37

with me. That would be an example

17:39

of a monogamous paradigm thought that people

17:41

can have this emotional attachment that's hard

17:43

to untie themselves from.

17:45

Just identifying that you're going

17:47

through a paradigm shift, that it

17:50

might be hard, and then

17:52

we give exercises throughout the chapter

17:54

of having paradigm awareness. What is

17:57

the paradigm I'm trying to

17:59

leave from? That's the one I'm trying

18:01

to shift into. It

18:03

doesn't have to be all or nothing. There might

18:05

be some from both paradigms that you want to

18:07

be living or incorporating. And then just how to

18:09

work with us. So, yeah, I

18:12

think the examples that you use of, you

18:14

know, of course, the classic experience

18:16

of a previously monogamous couple transitioning

18:19

into non-monogamy, I think

18:22

it also makes sense where we see people who've

18:24

been non-monogamous who transitioned back into monogamy or

18:26

decide to close their relationship either permanently

18:28

or temporarily. What are some examples of

18:30

big paradigm shifts that happen or

18:33

paradigm shock producing events that

18:35

happen for people who maybe have

18:37

been non-monogamous for years already? Yeah.

18:39

Usually I see it when they've

18:41

been practicing one style of non-monogamy

18:43

and then they shift into a

18:45

different style. Usually that's less hierarchical

18:48

and more polyamorous. So you'll

18:50

see people that like, we've been doing non-monogamy

18:52

for a decade or more, but I

18:54

haven't really gone through the threshold of my

18:56

partner falling in love and that becomes a

18:59

real paradigm shift for them. Yeah. One

19:02

of the things about that is that

19:04

it seems like attachment styles or attachment

19:06

ruptures or, you know, kind

19:09

of tweaks on the attachment system can

19:11

really, really feel differently in different styles

19:13

of non-monogamy. It's been really fascinating to

19:15

work with clients who, for

19:17

example, you know, kind of previously had

19:19

a solo poly sort of trajectory and

19:22

then meet somebody that really changes that

19:24

for them and they take on kind

19:26

of a primary structure for the first

19:28

time in their relational history

19:31

and it starts to bring up the

19:33

different feelings around what is attachment in

19:35

this new context. Whereas in solo for

19:38

that person, the kind of ways that

19:40

attachment formed and happened were

19:42

very, very different and didn't require the

19:44

same things that it did in the

19:47

context of a more primary hierarchical relationship.

19:50

So it's really been fascinating to see those

19:52

and think about it in terms of attachment

19:54

and how they can be very, very different in

19:56

the different styles of non-monogamy. Yeah, absolutely.

19:58

It's funny that... But I

20:00

think most often we talk about that

20:02

paradigm shift from someone who kind of

20:04

like your example where we were swingers

20:06

or, you know, doing something and then

20:09

transitioning to now all these feelings are

20:11

involved. But I have sometimes seen kind

20:13

of the other side of that of

20:15

maybe we did more of a parallel

20:17

polyamory where you're doing your thing, I'm

20:19

doing mine, this is all great and

20:21

I'm not right in front

20:23

of my face quite as much. And then maybe

20:25

we switch to more of going to

20:27

play parties or something where I'm kind

20:30

of more confronted with it and that

20:32

on the other side can also be kind of that jarring

20:35

wow, I thought I really had this all figured out but

20:37

this is different from what we've been doing for the last

20:39

10 years or however long it is. In

20:43

this, when you're talking about this, you had

20:45

this interesting term that came up where

20:47

you talked about creating a

20:49

temporary vessel to kind of

20:51

help cope with the intensity

20:53

of this paradigm shift. So

20:56

can you tell us first what that is and

20:58

why did you decide to call it a temporary

21:00

vessel specifically? Touching on that

21:02

issue of attachment, you know, it's really what

21:04

do our attachment systems need to feel safe

21:07

and secure. And if we're

21:09

putting that first, which many people are

21:11

wanting to sort of the really the

21:13

importance of polysecure was okay, here

21:16

is where it feels like our

21:18

metric is for what nervous

21:20

systems are needing in making

21:22

big transitions relationally. And

21:25

so if we're able to sort of figure out okay,

21:27

this is what we're taking care of. We're trying to

21:29

move forward in a way that's going to preserve as

21:31

much safety and security moving forward

21:33

as we can. What

21:35

is it that we need to do to

21:37

augment or truncate sort of our relational exploration

21:39

in a way that keeps that intact? And

21:42

so we have that concept of titrating

21:44

for example. So it's like okay, we

21:47

try something and then see how that

21:49

lands. How are nervous systems doing with

21:51

that change? Can we integrate that before

21:53

sort of moving on to bigger steps?

21:56

And so sort of giving people permission to

21:58

try things and move it a path. that

22:00

sort of is more inclined to support

22:02

the nervous systems through these bigger changes.

22:05

So the question I want to ask to that

22:07

though because I know this comes up a lot in the

22:10

work that I do with clients and I also do somatic

22:12

work. So like we really dive into titration

22:14

and how things land and things like that but

22:17

when I find that then people are trying to

22:19

do that sort of bottom-up work

22:21

and then realizing okay now what does this mean for me?

22:23

I think I've noticed a lot of people really struggle with

22:26

okay well like I tried something and it

22:29

feels kind of scary and a little uncomfortable but

22:31

it's really hard to suss out what is my

22:34

nervous system telling me? Oh my god don't go

22:36

there at all versus what is my nervous system

22:38

telling me? Oh this is maybe a little bit

22:40

risky but it's ultimately going to be safe. Like

22:42

I do think people sometimes have a hard time

22:44

sifting out. Does this mean it's always

22:46

going to feel this bad or is it just scary

22:48

right now? And like I mean I'm sure

22:51

you've encountered that with clients that you've worked with.

22:53

Yes and so and that will change

22:56

too like the things that bring you

22:58

to your edge of your nervous system

23:00

right won't always be the same and

23:02

so I make the distinction for people

23:05

of like yeah you're trying new things

23:07

that is going to be scary and

23:09

uncomfortable that needs to be a new

23:12

norm for a while but it shouldn't

23:14

put you into a trauma response. You're

23:16

having primal panic meltdowns, you're having panic

23:18

attacks, you know you're like completely off

23:21

your axis for what you would consider

23:23

too long. That's telling you your nervous

23:25

system is way too far.

23:27

It's breaking instead of bending so that would

23:30

be another one of like you're going to

23:32

have to bend but I don't want you

23:34

to be breaking. And then the other way

23:36

to work with that is from a parts

23:38

perspective what parts of you are afraid and

23:41

let's talk to those parts, let's work with

23:43

those parts and sous them

23:45

right and see what that does then

23:47

to your nervous system to step more

23:49

into some of these experiences or not.

23:52

Another thing about that is too is when

23:54

people have that conceptual framework of paradigm this

23:57

is what you're working with, you're changing this

23:59

especially in the context of working with

24:01

parts when you can connect sort of

24:03

parts awareness that you're making this paradigm

24:05

shift. It creates sort of almost like

24:08

the scaffolding or this bridge conceptually for

24:10

those parts to sort of even temporarily

24:12

just adjust themselves to these big changes.

24:14

It sort of makes it more digestible

24:16

in some ways even if it's like,

24:19

okay, this is feeling right now is

24:21

a very acute. This is feeling very

24:23

activating, but having that paradigm consciousness

24:27

with the parts work in place, I

24:29

think it can help some people integrate it

24:31

in a way that they wouldn't if they

24:33

hadn't had that. Yeah, your book actually was

24:35

the first time I believe that

24:38

I had heard the term parts. And

24:41

I'm sure the Detterger has heard it before in

24:43

all of the work that she's done, but I was

24:45

like... Well, it's originally an

24:47

IFS thing, right? Was IFS the first? IFS

24:49

was not the first, but it's the most

24:52

well-known. So can you just,

24:54

for the layperson, say what parts is

24:56

and kind of talk about that in

24:58

the context of the book and the

25:00

work that you do? Yeah,

25:02

so parts work is looking at how as

25:04

individuals, as people, we're made up of many

25:07

different parts, and that's actually normal and healthy.

25:09

And we kind of intuitively know it when

25:11

you're like, well, one part of me wants

25:13

to go and another part of me wants

25:15

to stay home, right? We have a social

25:17

party part and we have a part that

25:20

just wants to get cozy on the couch.

25:22

Or we have the part of us that

25:24

sort of shows up a certain way with

25:26

one partner or with our children or with

25:28

our family of origin. And so internal family

25:30

systems by Dick Schwartz really popularize

25:33

this aspect of sort of

25:35

the holistic self, right? That is made

25:38

up of many parts. But

25:40

often what happens is certain parts get

25:43

into these extreme roles or they're

25:45

holding wounds or they're protectors. And

25:48

so they need to be worked with so that we

25:50

sort of have more of an integrated system. Well,

25:53

I'm glad to use that example of, yeah, I have a

25:55

part of me that wants to go and a part of me that

25:57

wants to stay. And I think with a lot of people, some people,

25:59

I think Sometimes it can be, there's a part of me

26:01

that wants to see how

26:03

this non-monogamous relationship could play out, but

26:05

there's also a part of me that's like

26:08

really terrified about this and thinks

26:10

maybe I'll never be able to do

26:12

this. So of course that also leads

26:14

to the question of when people in

26:16

relationship are trying to go through some

26:18

kind of paradigm shift like this and

26:20

like one person is much more gung-ho

26:23

about let's shift this paradigm, hell yeah,

26:25

and the other person is like, oh,

26:28

God, you know, I'm not really sure that I

26:30

can do this. I mean, do you think that

26:32

finding some kind of compromise there is ever tenable

26:35

or like do you think that

26:37

that's something that people can find

26:39

a way to meet on or

26:42

do you think that that should be taken as

26:44

a sign very early on that like this is probably

26:46

just not going to work out? Oh,

26:48

I think it could definitely work, you know,

26:50

and it really just depends on what people

26:53

are willing to do in terms of modifying

26:55

their needs and expectations. It

26:57

also depends on where they are in terms

27:00

of those kind of possible extreme poles that

27:02

you just mentioned because typically what you're talking

27:04

about there is sort of a dueling conflict

27:07

between needs. One person wants autonomy

27:09

and freedom and the other person

27:11

is needing more security. And so

27:13

if you can really start to

27:15

flush those things out and depersonalize

27:17

those so that those differences in

27:19

needs aren't feeling so

27:22

pathological or charged or

27:24

problematic in their essence and so they, okay, yeah,

27:27

these are things where you're just rooted this is

27:29

the exploration you're needing. There's

27:31

nothing necessarily wrong with your positions but

27:34

they're there. What are you willing

27:36

to do in terms of compromise? That's something

27:38

like a vessel could really be helpful for

27:40

having sort of the person who's needing to

27:42

explore or try it but the person

27:44

who's needing more security and slowness

27:46

can sort of lean into the structure of

27:49

the vessel. So I think there's definitely

27:51

ways to work with it. There are

27:53

situations where I think that difference will

27:55

end up being the end of the

27:57

relationship but I think there are a lot

27:59

of... cases where really good compromises

28:02

emerge and people end up

28:04

surprising themselves. I've been

28:06

surprised many times by the person

28:08

who seems like the more reluctant

28:11

partner compared to their very enthusiastic

28:13

partner. With time and

28:15

experience, they become the one that later

28:17

than won't even give up non-monogamy that

28:19

you know, and the original partner wants

28:21

to. Yeah. Right.

28:23

I appreciated in the book also where

28:26

you said, you know, it's okay if

28:28

you go back to monogamy or it's

28:30

okay if you decide monogamy is actually

28:32

the thing that's right for me, but

28:35

that you also acknowledged

28:38

that if your partner finds that it's

28:40

really not the thing that's okay for

28:42

them, then perhaps a decoupling in some

28:44

way does need to happen. And

28:46

the fact that you put that sort of towards the

28:49

beginning of the book, I thought was

28:51

really powerful because so many people

28:53

are like constantly just trying to fit

28:55

themselves into a box that doesn't really

28:57

work. And just being able to

29:00

read like that permission, I think, from

29:02

a book that's about non-monogamy and saying

29:04

it is okay if this isn't what

29:06

is correct for you, I thought

29:08

was really powerful. Yeah. And

29:11

there's this funny thing that happens with

29:13

people who are, you know,

29:15

newer to non-monogamy is they feel very

29:18

judged. I shouldn't even say

29:20

newer. I think people

29:22

feel very judged by non-monogamous people

29:25

about being monogamous, often as if

29:27

it's less evolved. And so for

29:29

me, it's just as valid of

29:32

a relationship orientation or relationship choice

29:34

and structure. My

29:36

request though is that you're not defaulting

29:38

into it. You actually have chosen it.

29:42

That idea that you have choice and it's

29:44

not like, oh, you've got a choice. You have to take

29:46

it now. But it's kind of the

29:48

best of both worlds and saying you don't have to

29:50

just take the one thing that you thought was your

29:52

only option, but you don't have to take this one

29:54

other thing. There's a lot

29:56

of other options out there, right? There's a whole

29:58

range of different ways. ways you could do it

30:01

or maybe the original thing feels better

30:03

once you know you're choosing it instead of just,

30:05

well this is my only option. Well

30:07

I think sometimes having a professional or someone who's

30:09

sort of in the work give

30:11

you permission to really make a hard

30:13

choice really helps and opens up sort

30:15

of the more spaciousness internally to consider

30:17

it in a new way. So

30:20

it's like if a professional like Jess or myself

30:22

is saying to you, yeah if you

30:24

need to be monogamous and that's what's best

30:26

for you, absolutely choose it or if this

30:28

is not the right relationship for you, definitely

30:30

we're not here to keep you together, we're

30:32

here to bring you more clarity around what

30:34

you're needing as an individual. Sometimes

30:36

that creates a spaciousness that was necessary for

30:39

them to sort of lean into the exploration.

30:41

I mean that's been an interesting thing is

30:43

the permission itself sort of can start to

30:45

create this space internally for something that they

30:48

were needing before. We're going to take a

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38:27

so I want to springboard off

38:29

of all this conversation around choice

38:32

because something I've seen some people

38:34

struggle with, especially if it is

38:36

this particular paradigm shift of opening up

38:38

a closed relationship. And it's running

38:40

into conflict and resistance where often the

38:43

partner who's maybe more gung-ho about

38:45

shifting this can really struggle with

38:47

this question of is this

38:50

super inherent intrinsic part of me that

38:52

if I don't have this, I'm just

38:54

going to be miserable? Or is this

38:57

something that I can leave by the

38:59

wayside for the sake of like maybe going back

39:01

to monogamy or going back to a more familiar

39:04

type of relationship? And now in the book,

39:06

the two of you get into a little

39:08

bit of that, the debate about, you know,

39:10

oh, is non-monogamy, is it a lifestyle choice?

39:12

Is it a decision? Is it an identity?

39:14

Is it something that's immutable within people? And

39:16

can you talk to us a little bit

39:18

about that and about your own personal perspectives

39:20

on that? You

39:22

know, whether or not those categories

39:24

are hard and fast, fixed things

39:26

and human experience is less

39:28

important to me personally. I think I don't want to

39:31

diminish if someone says to me, I am

39:33

ethically non-monogamous, consensually non-monogamous as an

39:35

orientation. This is who I am.

39:38

This is my essence. Great.

39:41

That's great. I have no problem with that.

39:43

If someone says, this is my lifestyle, I'm

39:45

choosing this out of multiple choices, but I could

39:47

live with it or without it. Great.

39:49

That's not a thing for me in terms of that

39:52

being ultimate big T truth. I

39:55

think it comes back to that question of agency

39:58

and choice. I'm most interested in what

40:00

are people choosing based on their own sort of

40:03

assessment of their own personal needs and

40:05

wants? And so have they gone through

40:07

enough experiential situations relationally to really know

40:09

that about themselves and then sort of

40:11

to figure that out like I'm much

40:14

more interested in this kind of circles

40:16

back to that that question of parts

40:18

work. You've got a mature adult self

40:20

as sort of the center where we're

40:22

wanting to make decisions. We're

40:25

really able to see kind of okay what's

40:27

what are my needs? How do I get

40:29

those met? And then parts and

40:32

so we're really helping clients figure out okay

40:34

when are you grounded in yourself, your adult

40:36

self and when are you being led or

40:39

blended with a part? And so

40:41

in terms of this question of what are

40:43

the decisions you're making around any given particular

40:45

relationship or even the kind of identity that

40:47

you're taking on, if you're really anchored in

40:50

your sense of self then great. I think

40:52

it feels less important to me sort

40:54

of where you're falling on that spectrum as long

40:57

as you're really feeling anchored in your connection to

40:59

yourself and what's right for you in the now.

41:02

Because what I've seen is I've seen people on

41:04

either side of the spectrum in their own

41:06

journey flip to the other. I've

41:08

seen people who were devout. I

41:11

am Polly's orientation. This is who I am.

41:13

Change and go to monogamy and I've seen

41:16

sort of the same on the other side. So

41:19

for me it feels less fixed. I don't want

41:21

to tell people they are aren't. Are these things

41:23

are real or aren't? I'm just really curious about

41:25

where you grounded in your own experience, lived experience

41:28

now that's really going to help you make a

41:30

decision that serves you. Yeah and I think

41:32

right that's as a practitioner. I love

41:34

what you're saying but there's also sort

41:37

of the politics to this question too

41:39

that so many people have found that

41:41

they haven't been able to get equal

41:44

rights unless they claim something

41:46

as immutable and that it wasn't a

41:48

choice. This is who I am right.

41:51

My especially sexual orientation would be the

41:53

obvious example or something like my ethnicity

41:55

or gender and so therefore I have

41:58

a right to human rights. rights

42:00

like everyone else. And

42:02

it's interesting, right? Why can't we

42:04

actually have rights, legal rights, as

42:06

polyamorous people if it was a

42:08

lifestyle choice? The way religion

42:10

actually is a protected class, which for many

42:13

people is a choice. So

42:15

I think there's that dimension of this question too, which

42:17

is this important to at least name. Yeah.

42:20

I'm glad you brought that up because I feel

42:22

like that's always any time

42:24

we are being interviewed by some outlet

42:27

or something and someone asks a question

42:29

related to, is it a lifestyle choice?

42:31

Is it an identity? Is

42:34

it inherent in you, whatever? I

42:36

always want to say, why do you want to know that? Because

42:39

there's always that fear of why? Is

42:42

it because you just need validation and you feel

42:44

like if it wasn't part of my orientation, then

42:46

I don't deserve to get it? Or

42:48

is it about saying, well, if

42:50

this isn't your orientation, then I don't

42:53

have to respect it? It's

42:55

like, where are you coming from when you ask that

42:57

question? It is such a loaded one that I tend

42:59

to try to avoid answering it and we end up

43:01

taking this kind of middle road of like, well, for

43:03

some people it's an orientation, for some people it might

43:05

be a choice, which is

43:07

true, I suppose, but also is

43:09

kind of avoiding it because it's

43:11

such a problematic question in

43:13

and of itself, or at least it can be. Yeah.

43:16

And I love what you're saying. I

43:18

really resonate with that caution and I

43:20

see the way that then socially people

43:22

are sort of positioned to make claims

43:24

or sort of lean into an identity

43:27

because they feel like this is the only

43:29

way I'm going to get it justified or

43:31

sort of see it legitimized and then people

43:33

are like less in tune with their own

43:35

individual experience. And so for me, that's the

43:37

really, that's the sticking point is,

43:39

is this social construction the thing or

43:42

the need to be legitimized, which is

43:45

important and I recognize, well,

43:47

what does that then mean for your own capacity to

43:49

pivot when you need to? So

43:51

I want to move over to

43:54

the chapter that was the Mostly

43:56

Dave chapter and that was on

43:59

restorative relationship. conversations. First, I want

44:01

to talk about what that is and

44:03

then also if you want to discuss

44:05

your work in restorative justice as well,

44:07

I'd be really curious to talk about

44:09

that. Yeah, the restorative

44:12

relationship conversation model came out of

44:14

my work in the

44:16

field of restorative justice. And so

44:18

restorative practices is sort of an

44:20

umbrella term for a lot of

44:22

different approaches to the usage

44:25

of the concept of restorative. And

44:27

so there's churches, schools,

44:30

courts, hospitals, businesses even.

44:32

On an institutional level,

44:34

there's a lot of places where restorative

44:37

practices are starting to be integrated. I

44:39

think it's still on the margins, but

44:41

it's definitely making sort of slight inroads

44:44

into the mainstream. And so

44:46

I was doing restorative justice

44:48

as a bilingual case coordinator

44:50

and restorative justice, co-inferenced facilitator,

44:52

trainer for several years before

44:54

creating this model, the restorative

44:56

relationship conversations model. And

44:58

so what I was seeing in that

45:00

world was there's incredible

45:03

possibilities for transformation of conflict when

45:05

people have the opportunity to sit

45:07

in the same space and talk

45:09

about the impacts of their behavior

45:11

on others and then work

45:13

together to figure out, okay, what needs to be

45:16

done in order to repair this

45:18

harm. Where I was situated

45:20

was I was working with people who refer

45:22

to our nonprofit typically by the police. Sometimes

45:24

we have kind of freelance cases come to

45:27

us and then instead of going

45:29

to the courts and being sentenced, these people

45:31

would have the opportunity to sit down with

45:33

the people they've harmed and do a conference.

45:35

And so it was interesting and really powerful

45:37

work. But sort of at the

45:39

end of the day, what I was seeing

45:41

was that even though these conferences were transformative

45:43

and amazing, people were still being leveraged to

45:45

be in that space, right? You had sort

45:47

of a choice to do our program or

45:49

you're going to go to court. And

45:52

so while you're probably going to learn a lot and

45:54

have an amazing experience, that leverage always

45:56

stuck with me and it was something that I didn't

45:58

really... land

46:00

well. And so I had this experience where

46:02

this principal from a

46:05

local elementary school came to us and

46:07

was like, would you take this case

46:09

on pro bono? We've had all these

46:11

eight-year-olds, like six, eight-year-olds, has gotten to

46:13

this huge, a really intense fight on

46:15

the playground. The cops were called. No

46:17

one could be arrested, thankfully, because they're under the

46:19

age. But it was this

46:22

small community school where the principal recognized

46:24

this has to be resolved. We can't just

46:26

have this tension. These families recognized, the kids

46:29

recognized that something has to be done, but

46:31

they didn't know what to do. So they

46:33

came to us, asked us if

46:35

we'd modify our process. And so we did.

46:37

We modified a changed language, showed

46:40

up in their gym one cold and

46:42

frosty January morning with all of these

46:44

kids and parents on a weekend. And

46:46

it struck me as we were going through the

46:49

circle, and I'm listening to these kids and parents

46:51

just be so sincere and talk about the ways

46:53

that they were hurt and why they did what

46:55

they did and how they wanted things

46:57

to be different. I realized, whoa, no

46:59

one is being leveraged to

47:02

be here. Everyone is choosing to be

47:04

here because they recognize the importance of

47:06

these connections. Everyone is a deeply committed

47:09

stakeholder to this situation. I was so

47:11

moved by it. And everyone's

47:13

like, I want to do work like this

47:15

where everyone wants to be in this space, where everyone's

47:17

choosing to be here. So

47:19

it took a couple years to kind

47:21

of go from that breakthrough revelation to

47:23

creating this model. But I realized that

47:26

there was sort of a niche out

47:28

there that no one was filling. No

47:30

one was applying restorative principles to intimate

47:32

relationships. As far as I'd seen, I

47:34

thought, this is a great model for

47:36

creating safe containers for conflict. And Lord

47:38

knows people need it in these circumstances.

47:41

That's amazing. I appreciate

47:43

also in here that you shout out being

47:46

able to create those safe containers and then

47:48

doing it on a regular basis as well,

47:50

which is something that we talk a lot

47:52

about. And thank you for shouting out the

47:55

radar method in the book as well. Something

47:57

that you discussed there is... about

48:00

creating an awareness of internal and

48:02

external triggers and you have a

48:04

specific exercise. Can you talk about

48:06

that a little bit? Yeah,

48:09

this is really about learning how

48:11

our triggers function in us. And

48:14

this is something that's really close to

48:16

my heart because I feel like it's

48:18

one of the most practical and immediate

48:20

ways to start interrupting conflict cycles. And

48:22

so most people have at least access

48:25

to three sort of self-awareness

48:27

points. So it could

48:29

be the story that your mind's telling you. You

48:31

get triggered, you go into sort of a loop,

48:33

sort of a predictable story. She doesn't love me.

48:35

She doesn't care about this relationship. This is always

48:38

going to be this way. If you

48:40

can catch that narrative that's usually

48:42

very repetitive and very singular, that

48:44

can clue you in to the fact that you're triggered

48:47

and you probably need to slow down and do some

48:49

adjusting for your nervous system. The next

48:51

is emotions. And so other people

48:53

are more in touch with their emotional side.

48:55

So I'm getting really upset, I'm getting really

48:58

angry, really frustrated, really overwhelmed by sadness, what's

49:00

happening for me. And then third is somatic.

49:02

And so what's happening in your body? It's

49:05

really interesting to see how this is typically a

49:07

gendered thing for a lot of clients. A lot

49:09

of men have a really hard time connecting to

49:11

their emotions. They're usually the first

49:13

thing they can connect to is they're not everyone,

49:16

this is a generalization, but it's what I see

49:18

across the board in terms of the work that

49:20

I do. It's really fascinating to see men typically

49:22

can connect to their thoughts, but have a harder

49:24

time connecting to their bodies and emotions. And

49:26

so it's been interesting to have these

49:29

different touch points for triggered awareness to

49:31

help people start to clue themselves in,

49:33

sort of slow themselves down. Part

49:35

of what I've done too is given them a one

49:37

to 10 scale. It's like, okay, where are you

49:40

in terms of your level of activation? If you're

49:42

in a five, you're out of your prefrontal cortex,

49:45

you no longer have control of your

49:47

administrative functions, you're not gonna have

49:49

a good constructive conversation anymore. You

49:52

go any further, you're down to the amygdala,

49:54

you're into fight or flight responses, you gotta

49:56

know when you're at a five or above

49:58

and you need to be doing something to

50:00

play. out of the conversation. I'm

50:02

so glad that you lay out that scale because

50:04

yeah, I feel like so much of not just

50:06

the work that I do with clients but also

50:09

just the work that I've had to do

50:11

with myself my entire life is learning

50:13

not only learning to pause when

50:16

there's activation but also learning that the

50:18

queue for pausing is when you're at a three

50:20

instead of when you're at a nine because

50:22

I think that's something that I don't know

50:24

we just lose sight of that it's so much

50:26

easier to think like okay

50:28

when I explode that's when it's time to pause

50:30

or my partner explodes that's when it's time to pause when

50:32

it's like no you could probably be pausing a lot earlier

50:35

and if anything it's even more

50:37

of like I think fine tuning that muscle to

50:39

be okay with that queue coming much earlier than

50:41

maybe we've been used to it coming. Totally

50:44

and there's some really interesting work to

50:46

do with people in naming where they

50:48

are on the attachment spectrum right

50:51

and so for avoidance in that circumstance

50:53

they really have to be pulling if

50:55

they're pulling out early and sort of

50:57

as they were recognizing sort of a

50:59

three or four they need to really

51:02

be naming that and externalizing what's happening

51:04

for them and creating a very caring

51:06

compassionate communicative exit so that their partners

51:08

know what's happening it's not just this

51:10

I'm out this is too much so

51:13

it's really important for the avoidance of

51:15

people who fall on the avoidance spectrum

51:17

to really do that and be very

51:19

very explicit about that intention and

51:21

naming hey this is for my well-being I care

51:24

about you we're gonna circle back

51:26

but I keep having this conversation the way

51:28

it's having sort of the way it's playing

51:30

out right now I'm gonna make this exit

51:33

to re-regulate whereas for the anxious

51:35

people like myself we have to really

51:37

be aware of okay this

51:39

is gonna feel like potential death I'm

51:41

gonna want to follow you right if

51:43

you were trying to leave this conversation

51:45

while I'm feeling activation it's

51:47

gonna be very very challenging for me to let you go

51:50

and yet it's a really

51:52

profound exercise and self-regulation and self-awareness

51:54

to recognize okay this is the

51:56

attachment system my systems flooded

51:58

with cortisol and whatever or

52:00

other neurotransmitters and hormones, I've

52:02

got to let that metabolize

52:05

and I'll come back after that metabolism has happened

52:07

and this is my work and a lot of

52:10

deep breathing has got to happen. There

52:12

needs to be a plan B. Like if a partner

52:14

is going to exit, you know that's going to be

52:16

hard, you have to be ready to do self-care and

52:19

handle that exit well. Yeah, I'll have

52:21

clients, we like do the zero to ten

52:23

and I'll call it their yellow, orange and

52:25

red zones and we map

52:27

out what do those zones look like

52:29

because they can look like fight, flight

52:31

or freeze depending on which zone and

52:33

then what is self-regulation for each zone

52:35

and what's co-regulation for each zone which

52:37

could be very different things. Yeah,

52:40

can you give some examples of that?

52:42

Yeah, so let's just take the easier

52:44

yellow zone, right? If I'm not fully

52:46

triggered but I'm starting to get activated,

52:48

for me my yellow zone I'm going

52:51

to see my thoughts start to spin.

52:53

I'm arguing with someone in my head,

52:55

I keep thinking about the conversation, my

52:57

body feels a little tight whereas

53:00

if I'm in my orange zone getting

53:02

closer to that like four, five, six

53:04

then I'm really distracted. I start to

53:06

feel stress hormones moving right? So and

53:08

then by that time I'm already reacting

53:11

usually in some way like withdrawing a

53:13

little bit from my partner. So

53:15

in the yellow zone it could just be me

53:17

catching it and being like, oh I'm upset so

53:19

what are my options? Well I can in the

53:21

yellow zone I could use breath, breath's not going

53:24

to work in my red zone, right?

53:26

I can say what's going on and name it

53:28

to my partner, say, hey I'm activated right now,

53:31

can I have a hug? In

53:33

that zone something like touch, you know, rubbing

53:35

my back really works very well, naming what's

53:38

going on and getting to speak about it.

53:41

As I get further along those interventions don't

53:43

work as well and

53:45

I need things that are, you know, maybe

53:47

more vigorous like running around the block or

53:49

taking a break. Yeah, I want to talk

53:51

about the red zone co-regulation because

53:53

I think that it's like that's like

53:56

the quadrant of what was like so

53:58

difficult where I think so many things

54:01

can go awry where because

54:03

you're so activated, it's really hard to even

54:05

know what you want from

54:07

a partner to co-regulate with you, if you even

54:09

want them to co-regulate with you. And

54:11

then like sometimes if you ask for the wrong

54:13

thing or if your partner does the

54:15

quote unquote wrong thing, it can just like spin

54:18

things out even more. And so I

54:20

mean, yeah, can you share some examples of

54:22

where you've seen people? And I know this

54:25

is all highly individual, but like, yeah, figure

54:27

things out of that, that combination of being

54:29

extremely activated and yet also being able to

54:31

co-regulate with a partner. Yeah. So

54:34

if both people are in the red zone, you're

54:36

not going to be able to co-regulate together and

54:38

really do you need to take that space and

54:41

maybe co-regulate with other people or have

54:44

your tools for what you need to do for yourself.

54:47

But if we have one partner in the red and the

54:50

other isn't, that's the ideal situation

54:53

where they can say, come on, let's

54:55

do jumping jacks to like move the

54:57

hormones out. Let's get our

55:00

cardio on. Like let's go for a run,

55:02

punch this pillow. I'm going to hold it.

55:04

Yell. Like if you can hold

55:06

that space, but if it's going to traumatize

55:08

you or it's directed at you, that's not going

55:10

to work. Right. But

55:13

if your partner can actually off gas, not

55:16

directed at the other one, but off gas

55:18

it in front of or with the support

55:20

of the other one, let's go to

55:22

a rage room. That can work. Something

55:25

that was said in this chapter, I

55:27

believe if I'm remembering correctly that I

55:30

found to be so profound, even though

55:32

it's so simple is asking

55:34

for consent from your partner to

55:36

be able to talk about challenging

55:39

things as opposed to just springing

55:41

it on them, which I think

55:43

so many people do. We

55:45

just, we don't even see how they're doing. We're just

55:47

like, Hey, like I'm going to talk to you right

55:49

now about this thing that really pisses me off about

55:51

something that you said or did as

55:53

opposed to asking, are you in a

55:55

place where you can handle this conversation

55:57

right now? Am I in a place where

55:59

I. I can talk to you about it in

56:01

a respectful manner. All of those

56:04

things just so often don't happen. And

56:07

I want like everyone to read even just

56:09

that little section where you said that because

56:11

it was mind blowing to me and yet

56:13

made so much sense and was so simple.

56:16

Yeah, it's one of the most simple as

56:18

you say but revolutionary for so many people,

56:20

especially for partners who are living together and

56:22

have been for so long. We

56:25

just take it for granted. There's such a

56:27

sense of entitlement to partners in

56:29

our world. It's so interesting

56:31

how that starts to just collapse over

56:33

time, right? This autonomy, this space, this

56:35

just, you wouldn't do that for most

56:38

of your other relationships. And yet with

56:40

a partner with whom you live, it's

56:42

just so interesting how those boundaries start

56:44

to really blur. And so

56:46

consent is such a powerful word

56:48

and you so often in the

56:50

world of ethical nominogamy or consensual

56:52

nominogamy, and yet why doesn't it

56:54

cross over into process? I'm

56:57

just thinking about, you also have a

56:59

chapter about codependency and kind of the

57:02

enmeshment that we can have and how

57:04

we can differentiate. And that

57:06

anytime that topic comes up, it makes

57:08

me think about all of these classic

57:10

ways that we have to think about

57:12

relationships, like the whole you

57:15

complete me or to becoming one, all

57:17

of these things where I think

57:19

the thing we forget about when

57:21

we romanticize this idea of becoming one

57:23

is also this, yeah, that autonomy or

57:25

that respect for this other person might

57:28

be in a different mental space than I am, but it's this

57:30

like, no, no, no, we're like

57:33

close enough that whatever, I guess to put

57:35

it more negatively, whatever horrible stuff

57:37

I might throw at myself, I can throw at them

57:39

too. Maybe that's a little bit dark

57:41

to say it that way. Probably true though. But

57:44

yeah, it's like that learning how to

57:47

differentiate and respect that they are

57:49

this distinct different person who does

57:51

deserve that kind of respect, I

57:53

think going both ways even. It

57:55

can feel like you can never

57:57

say no to a certain

57:59

conversation. or like anything a partner

58:01

does, maybe even that's embarrassing in public,

58:04

like you feel it for yourself because

58:06

our identities become so entwined with each

58:08

other. Yeah, one of the

58:10

things I think is really connected to

58:13

that phenomenon is people don't

58:15

realize that there, this goes

58:18

back to that piece of self-awareness, people don't

58:20

realize that they're actually trying to co-regulate and

58:22

they start processing and they're just trying to

58:24

go into some kind of co-regulation loop and

58:26

there's no, and that's partly why it doesn't

58:28

feel good and why you do need consent

58:30

because if that's what you're doing and you don't

58:32

realize it and you're trying to draw somebody into

58:35

that process, it's purely not going

58:37

to feel good really to the other person and so

58:39

they're going to be like, what a minute, what's happening

58:41

if they're even aware of that? But

58:43

that's really the thing that I see over and

58:45

over again is people are actually trying to get

58:48

some kind of regulation, they're trying to off-gas because

58:50

they're holding the tension that they can't really, they

58:52

haven't learned how to hold themselves. Yeah,

58:55

holding that tension, I always think

58:57

about Martha Cowpey's phrase that

58:59

she uses in her fantastic book about that

59:01

muscle of holding steady, which it kind of

59:04

goes both ways in that dynamic that if

59:06

you're the person who, you know, your partner

59:08

stepped on your toes in some way or

59:11

maybe you're more anxious attached and you are

59:13

kind of trying to seek a little bit

59:15

of that comfort and reassurance of, like you

59:17

were saying, David, it's like developing that sense

59:19

to hold steady if it's not the

59:22

right moment or if your partner's not

59:24

ready to co-regulate with you or process with

59:26

you what happened. And then

59:28

same thing on the other side that if you

59:30

are ready to go through that process with a

59:32

partner, having to hold steady through realizing like, yeah,

59:34

I'm going to have to sit with my partner

59:36

maybe saying that I heard them in

59:38

some way, right? Or like expressing

59:41

feelings that maybe I had no intention whatsoever

59:43

of producing in them and having to hold

59:45

steady and like hold that and hear that

59:48

without immediately jumping to the defensive or

59:50

throwing it back in their face. So

59:52

yeah, it feels like those are similar

59:55

muscles to me and it's so much easier

59:57

to talk about this stuff than to do this stuff.

1:00:00

Yeah, and I wanted to jump back

1:00:02

to this when you all were talking

1:00:04

about that piece around co-regulation sort of

1:00:06

when people are activated and how to

1:00:08

co-regulate in the different zones, right? And

1:00:11

one of the things that can help a

1:00:13

lot of partners is to have sort of

1:00:15

a contingency plan and talk about what actually

1:00:17

does work when you are that

1:00:19

activated because a lot of people don't realize

1:00:21

that the thing that they're doing makes things

1:00:23

worse. And so what I

1:00:25

want for partners is to actually have a

1:00:28

good roadmap for what is actually

1:00:30

going to give their partners nervous system

1:00:32

the kind of soothing and support that

1:00:34

it needs in those moments when activation

1:00:36

is happening. And so if we

1:00:38

can do that when people are not triggered

1:00:40

and practice that, like literally practice it so

1:00:43

that their nervous systems have a chance

1:00:45

to feel that flow together and they're

1:00:47

in the same agreement created in the

1:00:49

therapeutic space, it often creates

1:00:52

a lot more sense of safety because a lot

1:00:54

of people try to verbalize and sort

1:00:56

of talk things out when often what they're

1:00:59

needing is something somatic or vice versa. So

1:01:01

I really want partners to really know what's

1:01:03

going to be the strategy that's actually going

1:01:05

to work for that kind of co-regulation. For

1:01:09

listeners, Deb Dana's work, she

1:01:11

applies polyvagal theory to like

1:01:14

what are the interventions that you

1:01:16

need if you're in that sympathetic

1:01:18

dominance or if you're in that

1:01:21

dorsal vagal shutdown. So

1:01:23

I would recommend people check out. I think

1:01:25

it's befriending your nervous system. Well,

1:01:27

I so highly recommend

1:01:29

this book. Again, I think as

1:01:32

I've said in the little blurb that

1:01:34

I wrote for you all, this book

1:01:37

is really about moving into 401 territory

1:01:40

in terms of polyamory. There's so many

1:01:42

books out there that are really 101

1:01:44

and this just goes above and beyond

1:01:46

into really

1:01:48

how to become polywise as you

1:01:51

said in the book and move

1:01:53

past the changes that happen when

1:01:55

you are just starting out becoming

1:01:57

polyamorous. So thank you so much.

1:02:00

for your work in this book. It's been a

1:02:02

pleasure to read it again. And where can people

1:02:04

find more of both of you and your work?

1:02:07

Yeah, for me, they can find me

1:02:09

at jessicafern.com. They can find

1:02:12

me at restorativerelationship.com. I'm

1:02:14

assuming that has links to buy the books

1:02:16

and all that stuff there as well as

1:02:18

work with you? Yep, exactly. Awesome.

1:02:21

Well, thank you again so much for being here.

1:02:23

Our question of the week, which is going to

1:02:25

be on our Instagram stories is, what

1:02:28

is your definition of being

1:02:30

poly-wise? We're very interested to

1:02:32

see what you all have to say

1:02:35

to that. And the best place to

1:02:37

share your thoughts with other listeners is

1:02:39

in the episode discussion channel in our

1:02:41

Discord server, or you can post in

1:02:43

our private Facebook group. You can get

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1:02:50

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1:02:54

the above. Our production assistants

1:02:56

are Rachel Shenowork and Carson Collins. Our theme

1:02:58

song is Forms I Know I Did by

1:03:01

Josh and Anand from the Fractal Cave EP.

1:03:03

The full transcript is available on

1:03:05

this episode's page on multiemory.com.