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0:49

Pod Save America. I'm

1:08

Jon Favreau. I'm Dan Pfeiffer. On today's show,

1:11

Trump tries to tank a bipartisan immigration deal

1:13

because he wants to use the border crisis

1:15

as a campaign issue. Biden gets

1:17

great economic news following a big endorsement

1:19

from the United Auto Workers. And later,

1:21

I talked to former Congresswoman Liz Cheney

1:24

about the dangers of a second Trump term and

1:26

how she plans to stop it from happening. Liz

1:29

Cheney on Pod Save America. That's

1:31

where we're at, Dan. That's 2024. Chris

1:34

Christie, Vivek Ramaswamy, Liz

1:36

Cheney. You know what? Big 10. We're a big

1:39

10. The left's answer to Fox News is here

1:41

you go. But

1:43

first, Donald Trump and all the Magagoons are

1:45

trying to push Nikki Haley out of the race.

1:47

But as of right now, she's

1:49

not just sticking around. She's actually showing some

1:52

fight. She's running ads in South Carolina. Her

1:54

Super PAC had its biggest day of fundraising

1:56

this week. And here she is at

1:58

a rally in her home state. having some

2:00

fun with Trump's meltdown on Tuesday night.

2:02

So we got out there and we did our thing and

2:05

we said what we had to say and

2:07

then Donald Trump got out there and just

2:09

threw a temper tantrum. He

2:14

pitched a fit. He was insulting. He was

2:17

doing what he does but I know that's

2:19

what he does when he's insecure. I know

2:21

that's what he does when he is threatened

2:23

and he should feel threatened without a doubt.

2:28

You look at what's happening and

2:30

out of everything that he said in his

2:32

rant, he

2:35

didn't talk about the American people once.

2:39

He talked about revenge. Well

2:42

Dan, it looks like she didn't follow

2:44

the DeSantis path of dropping out after

2:46

a few days. Who would have guessed?

2:49

I want to say two things. One. Yes, go

2:52

ahead. Please. Don't worry. I'll get to where you want me

2:54

to get to. First, it's been less

2:56

than 48 hours. It

3:00

took DeSantis longer than that to get out of

3:02

the race after I left. So that's one. But

3:05

two, I will acknowledge that

3:07

perhaps I was

3:09

overly negative, maybe put off by

3:12

sort of the fanboy vibes that you and Lovett

3:14

were putting out on Tuesday

3:17

night. Maybe you're going

3:19

to end up being correct and she will be in this

3:21

through South Carolina and maybe beyond. My

3:24

analysis of what her odds

3:26

are into that has not changed, but I

3:28

will stipulate that she has shown more fight

3:30

in the 48 hours since

3:33

the New Hampshire primary than I expected, which is

3:35

a good thing for the

3:38

process, for Democrats

3:41

trying to beat Donald Trump and for people who have to do three

3:43

podcasts a week. So kudos. And

3:46

again, I share your analysis of

3:48

what the final outcome will be. I always

3:50

have. And I will separate

3:53

what I want to happen and

3:55

what I think will happen. Obviously,

3:57

what I want to happen is for Nicki Minaj, you

4:00

Haley to stay in this race as long as possible

4:02

because anything that happens in

4:04

this country or the world that

4:06

even has a chance of damaging Donald

4:09

Trump politically, I am for, which is why

4:11

I really want her to stay in. Now,

4:13

what I think will happen, I also think

4:16

she'll stay in through South Carolina for

4:18

all the reasons that I talked about on

4:21

Tuesday night. And I just think, you know,

4:24

I think she's going to lose some donors. She's already lost some

4:26

donors. She's still down about 30 points

4:29

in South Carolina. She's got the most

4:32

of the Republican party pressuring her

4:34

to drop out, including the ostensibly

4:36

neutral RNC chair, Ronna McDaniel. She's

4:39

got some challenges. The

4:42

big one being Republicans have yet to

4:44

vote for her in any of these races. So that's

4:47

the challenge. Well, I'm

4:49

talking about challenges of like, does she stay in

4:51

through South Carolina? So I still think

4:53

there's definitely, I still think there's a change she

4:55

dropped out before South Carolina, but I think I'm

4:58

more likely than not, I think she at this point is

5:01

going to stick it out because I

5:03

think even though she's losing some donors, you

5:05

know, she's still raising money. Some

5:07

other donors are staying in there, which

5:09

is not totally surprising. Like when have

5:12

billionaires ever been known to make shrewd

5:14

political decisions or have good political analysis?

5:17

You know? And again, she is, she's

5:20

thinking to herself, why not? She's like,

5:22

she's been excommunicated from the party at

5:24

this point. Like if she

5:26

had dropped out after Iowa, maybe

5:29

she could have gotten herself back in Trump's

5:31

good graces and the party's good graces. She

5:33

chose to compete in New Hampshire, which is

5:35

crossing the Rubicon. Now Trump hates

5:37

her, MAGA hates her. She is persona non

5:39

grata in the party. And

5:42

I, at this point, it's like, what do you got left to lose? Dignity.

5:46

I mean, she was Trump's UN ambassador, said he was

5:48

bad, said he was good again, said he was, she's

5:50

lost that. The reason why she would get out if

5:53

she were to get out, which she very well may

5:55

not, I would like to stipulate for you, is

5:58

losing your home state. 30

6:01

points would be, that'd be personally painful for

6:03

a lot of people. Does she

6:05

have a political future in that state? Unlikely.

6:08

Does she have a political future in the Republican Party?

6:12

Maybe, but potentially probably unlikely.

6:15

If Donald Trump loses in

6:18

the general election, then maybe she does. But people

6:20

generally don't like to lose their home states by a lot. Now

6:22

I will say, I went looking through

6:25

the quote unquote polling that we have

6:27

on South Carolina, and we're all hinging

6:29

this 30% number on one Emerson

6:31

poll. Then when you click on the link,

6:33

it comes out in an Excel spreadsheet, which

6:37

is not to say that it's not a good poll.

6:39

It very well may be, but I would

6:41

like to see some, and that poll was before Iowa. I'd

6:43

like to see some more recent

6:45

polling, but you would, if that poll

6:47

is correct, you would have to just be very concerned with

6:49

Nikki Haley because everyone, the point

6:51

she made, everyone knows you, and

6:54

they're currently choosing the other guy.

6:58

But let's see some other, we may get some polling that shows

7:00

it in a two person race closer,

7:02

right? Because there are, while

7:04

most DeSantis voters are for Trump, there are

7:06

some of them who were Haley

7:09

voters. There were some, there's

7:11

a percent or two of Ace Hutchinson voters, some

7:13

of the Tim Scott voters, even if he endorsed

7:15

Trump, probably end up in Haley's camp.

7:17

There are whatever the seven people in South

7:19

Carolina probably are gonna vote for Chris Christie, they end up in

7:21

Haley's camp. She could get to a number that's more respectable than

7:24

Dow 30, which would give it some juice

7:26

and interest, even if she still has to

7:28

find a way to win a state, a

7:30

very Republican state, where in the 2016 Republican

7:33

primary, 72% of primary

7:35

voters were evangelical Christians, a group she's

7:37

getting clobbered with, so. Yeah,

7:40

and that's, I mean, what's indisputable, whatever the

7:42

polls show, is that not only is the

7:44

South Carolina electorate worse for her than the

7:47

New Hampshire electorate, it is like worse

7:49

by a magnitude, like it doesn't get much worse.

7:51

It was 20% of New Hampshire voters were

7:56

evangelical Christian. It's tough. Now look,

7:58

Democrats and independents, of course, can. vote

8:00

in the primary if they want. There's

8:03

not a ton of them in South Carolina

8:05

either, and a lot of them will be,

8:07

a lot of Democrats will be voting in

8:09

the Democratic primary that comes first for Joe

8:11

Biden. So although if I was a, if

8:13

I was a voter in South Carolina, I might just

8:16

to keep the fun going, I might vote for

8:18

Nikki Haley. Sure, why not? Right,

8:20

in the primary, who cares? Jon, if

8:23

ever I announced this, he would vote for Nikki Haley over

8:25

Joe Biden. Cool, cool. I didn't say,

8:27

that's just fake news at the end. I

8:30

mean, you said, you said you would, are

8:32

there Republican primary for Nikki Haley over- In

8:34

the Democratic primary, I'm obviously going to write

8:36

in Dan Pfeiffer. If

8:39

you were parachuted into Nikki Haley's

8:42

campaign as senior advisor, what

8:44

do you do for the next few weeks? Well, first

8:46

I would say, Nikki, you clearly

8:48

have not taken my advice to drop out right

8:51

now that I offered on Tuesday night. But since

8:53

we are in it, here's

8:55

what you have to come to terms with. The

8:57

odds of victory are quite long.

9:00

For you to win would require an upset

9:03

of a magnet to that does not happen in modern

9:05

political history. So

9:08

there are two outcomes to this campaign. One

9:10

is you win. The other one

9:12

is that your time in politics

9:14

is over. You leave diminished, embarrassed.

9:17

You will never be invited to Republican

9:19

Party function again. You will never

9:21

run for office as a Republican again. You

9:23

will probably spend your days either outside

9:25

of politics or hosting a podcast with

9:27

Liz Cheney on the Crooked Media Network.

9:30

That's not a bad future. I mean, but- And so

9:32

I would say to her, if you

9:35

have any interest in the former winning, you have

9:37

to be willing to accept the probability of the

9:39

latter. And that means you have

9:41

to be all in 100 percent in. You

9:43

have to make an argument against Trump every

9:45

day, a brutally honest argument

9:47

about how you truly feel about him

9:50

and how dangerously unfit he is, how

9:52

people- Republicans who nominate Donald Trump are

9:54

putting this election, their

9:56

party, and the country at risk.

9:58

You have to be willing to say. that he

10:00

could be running, that Republicans were out to nominate

10:03

someone who could be running for president from prison

10:06

and go all in. And

10:08

then, tactically, we have to begin

10:10

looking beyond South Carolina. And

10:13

that includes looking at states like Virginia, which, you're not gonna believe

10:15

this, but you know who won Virginia in 2016? Marco

10:18

Rubio. Marco Rubio, right? But

10:20

for a state like Marco, like Michigan, a place where the

10:22

independents go, they wrote this in their memo that we talked

10:24

about on Monet, you have to be willing to go all

10:27

the way to the convention. Because if you were in, you

10:29

were in through the Jack Smith trial, you're

10:31

in through countless hamburgers, you're

10:35

all the way in, and be ready to take it to the convention and say

10:37

that. And there's a small chance

10:39

you could possibly win, it's gonna require a tremendous amount

10:41

of luck, some exogenous events, but

10:43

you gotta be all the way in. There is

10:45

no pulling your punches for how dangerous this

10:47

guy is. And you'll still probably lose, but

10:50

if you really believe he's just dangerous, the right thing to

10:52

do is to make that case for the country. Dan,

10:55

that advice is music to my ears. I thought

10:57

it would be. Yeah. I

11:01

want her to go out in a blaze of

11:03

glory. Look, she's already, she's not

11:05

there yet. Who knows if she'll ever

11:07

get there. But I do

11:09

think he didn't talk about

11:11

the American people, he's only talking about revenge.

11:13

She's tiptoeing closer to the Chris Christie message

11:15

that Donald Trump is about Donald Trump, he's

11:18

about himself, he only cares about himself, he

11:20

doesn't care about anyone else, which I think

11:22

is, to me, the most effective

11:24

message. I think it's great for Biden, I think it's

11:26

great for Democrats, it just happens to be true. It's

11:28

true, the best messages are

11:30

also true, which is that Donald

11:32

Trump is a fucking narcissist who

11:34

only gives a shit about himself,

11:36

his election, whether he wins, there

11:39

is no such thing as loyalty. There's no

11:41

one he cares about except himself. He is

11:44

running for president to punish his enemies, enrich

11:47

himself, and reward his politically connected friends.

11:49

And so she should just go all out. What

11:53

do you get to lose? Your career in

11:55

Republican politics is already over. So

11:57

right, you get the cricket podcast, maybe you get

11:59

an MSNBC slot. You're going

12:01

to Davos, you're giving lots

12:03

of speeches, you'll be on

12:05

boards. It's fine. She'll be

12:07

fine. She'll be embarrassed among

12:09

Republicans, but that's already the case. Yeah,

12:11

the embarrassing thing is being a Republican

12:13

right now. Also, we know that she

12:15

really thinks that Trump is unfit for

12:17

it. She has told us this several

12:19

times before she's changed her position for

12:22

political expediency. So it's like, we know

12:24

that she can do it. She's done

12:26

it before. So now she's just got

12:28

to stay there. And look, I mean,

12:30

again, what do you get to lose? What do you get to lose? Clearly

12:33

Donald Trump isn't happy about any of this.

12:35

He took a quick break from attacking the

12:37

woman a jury has held him liable for

12:39

raping. 37 posts about

12:42

Eugene Carroll in just 20 minutes

12:44

the other day. He also,

12:46

by the way, testified, we're recording this

12:48

Thursday, he testified for three

12:50

minutes at the defamation trial today

12:52

in New York before the judge shut him

12:54

up because he was trying to say that

12:57

he didn't do it, which the judge said,

12:59

we already adjudicated this at another trial. So

13:02

just stop and they went off the

13:04

stand. So that was Donald Trump testifying. So

13:07

he took a break from attacking Eugene Carroll and

13:10

he started attacking the woman still running against

13:12

him. Quote, I knew Nikki

13:14

well, she was average at best. Anybody that

13:16

makes a contribution to bird brain from

13:18

this moment forth will be permanently

13:21

barred from the MAGA camp. What do you

13:23

think that means? That

13:25

means that Haley supporters won't be invited to Mar-a-Lago

13:27

to help Donald Trump cover up more crimes. Does

13:29

it mean they're not going to be able to

13:31

take part in the next insurrection? What's

13:34

MAGA camp? I don't think we want to

13:36

know, John. I really don't. I

13:39

know that we're going to be in the other camp. That's

13:41

not the MAGA camp. Yeah, I think the other camp is

13:43

the one you really don't want to be in. If

13:46

John, I'll tough one. We're going to see Nikki

13:48

Haley, Chris Christie, Mike Pence. They're all going to be

13:50

in the other camp. The re-education camp run by Greg

13:52

Gutfeld and Jesse Waters that we'll be staying in. Yeah,

13:54

that one. Yeah, that's it. That's our

13:56

camp. I mean, look, this is a message

13:58

clear design for a... about

14:00

30 rich people in America. And

14:04

these rich people, they don't let Donald Trump, obviously

14:06

they do have not read the

14:08

demographic, they have the delegate rules or

14:10

the demographic makeup of South Carolina and are putting

14:12

money in Nikki Haley's campaign, but they also like

14:15

being in the mix. And

14:17

so what he's really saying is, if

14:19

you back Nikki Haley after today, you're

14:22

not coming to the inauguration, you're not coming to

14:24

the White House, you're not getting invited to Mar-a-Lago, you

14:27

got some special favors you need from a

14:29

junior EPA official who's handing out waivers

14:32

on pollution, you're not getting those, that

14:34

you're not gonna be part of the mix. And

14:36

that's why all these people who, we saw this

14:39

in 2016, all these Republicans stayed

14:42

off the sidelines, so they were sure Trump was,

14:44

all these Republican billionaires did not get

14:46

involved in the general election, because they assumed Trump would lose.

14:48

As soon as he won, they all

14:51

wrote gigantic checks to the inaugural, so

14:53

that they could be part of it,

14:55

and get invited to all this stuff. And so that's

14:57

essentially the message he's giving to those people. He's

15:00

a mob boss, that's what it is. That's how he

15:02

thinks, absolutely. I mean, it's

15:05

just, the Republican National Committee,

15:08

the dispatch broke the story today,

15:10

the Republican National Committee is reviewing

15:12

a draft resolution from David Bossie

15:14

of Citizens United slash Trump campaign

15:16

fame, that declares

15:19

Trump, declares Trump the nominee before

15:21

the 48 other states have voted.

15:24

Republicans are so afraid of people

15:26

voting. They're even afraid of their

15:28

own voters voting, that they wanna

15:30

just declare that the primary is

15:32

over, the nomination over, and that

15:34

Trump has won. Now, the rules

15:36

say that Trump would still have

15:39

to win the delegates, but if

15:41

they pass this resolution, the

15:43

RNC can start working with him. Which, you

15:45

know, I mean, Ronna McDaniel was on TV

15:47

basically sounding like she was gonna do that

15:49

anyway. This is just more evidence that Donald

15:51

Trump is essentially an incumbent president running for

15:53

reelection. Like that, the DNC is

15:55

working with Joe Biden, because he's the incumbent president, and he

15:57

is in charge of the DNC. All the people working there

15:59

are insane. including Rana

16:01

Romney McDaniel were

16:04

appointed by him. They're there because of him.

16:06

That piece of paper, in

16:09

terms of, as you point out, in terms of the delegate

16:11

math means nothing. It could

16:13

be a tweet for all of its value. But

16:15

it's another way to go around to donors

16:18

and others to say, and the small

16:20

handful of endorsers that Nikki Haley has and

16:22

say, this thing is over. Get

16:25

on board, it's time to go beat you up.

16:27

Which is what their message is. And that's usually

16:29

what presumptive nominees do when they think they have

16:31

this thing locked up. It's where we were when

16:33

Obama had to be developed an insurmountable delegate lead

16:36

over Hillary Clinton in 2008. It's

16:38

the argument that Hillary Clinton tried to make to Bernie Sanders

16:40

in 2016. So that

16:42

part is unusual. The RNC doing the bidding

16:45

of the leading candidate is unusual, but

16:48

it doesn't really matter that much. Trump

16:50

has also been taunting Haley about how

16:52

he already won Nevada, where there's a

16:55

primary on February 6th and

16:57

a caucus on February 8th. You

16:59

wanna tell people what that's all about? Yeah, this

17:01

is pretty interesting and kind of stupid all

17:03

at the same time. So

17:05

in the past, Nevada has had caucuses to decide

17:07

as part of being one of the early states.

17:11

In the 2020 Democratic caucus, there was

17:13

a lot of chaos about how the

17:15

reporting was done. Wasn't really sure

17:18

who got what votes, where they came from. A

17:21

couple campaigns sued. There was

17:23

also the disaster in the Democratic caucus in

17:25

Iowa. Real blow back against caucuses generally. So

17:28

just as a refresher, caucuses are run by

17:31

parties. Primaries are run by state, secretary of

17:33

states and election offices. So

17:35

Nevada passed the law. The Nevada liked being early in

17:37

the process and they liked the attention. So the Nevada

17:39

state legislator passed the law and said, we're gonna have

17:41

a presidential primary on February 6th. The idea would be

17:43

candidates in both parties would compete in it. The

17:46

Nevada Republican party is run by Trump loyalists.

17:49

So much so that the chair of the party,

17:51

even though they are hosting this early caucus in

17:53

primary, has already endorsed Trump,

17:56

which is definitely not sketching at all. And

17:59

they believed. correctly in my view, that

18:01

a caucus would be much better for Trump

18:03

than a primary, especially

18:05

one that had same day registration, where

18:07

people could walk in and register and vote. And so

18:09

what the party said was, sure, you can hold any

18:11

primary you want, but it's not gonna be worth anything,

18:13

much like the New Hampshire primary had no delegates for

18:16

Democrats, so we're just gonna hold

18:18

our caucus, and that's where all the

18:20

delegates are gonna go. Everyone believed

18:22

that that was rigged for Donald Trump, as it

18:24

clearly is, so Haley and DeSantis and the others

18:26

didn't participate in it. Anyone turned into this contest

18:28

where Trump would just win by a lot, and

18:30

it would seem like a huge victory, it would

18:32

be easier to not compete, because there's only a

18:35

small handful of delegates, compared to the 1,215 you

18:37

need for the nomination. But

18:40

what is interesting is, the reason Trump is not on

18:43

the primary ballot is, at Trump's

18:45

urging, the Nevada Republican Party

18:47

said, in order to participate in the caucus, and

18:49

be able to win those delegates, you cannot be

18:51

on the primary ballot. This is

18:53

the example of something that Nikki Haley will

18:56

face if she stays in this race,

18:58

is Donald Trump's campaign has very strategically

19:00

and cleverly rigged the rules,

19:03

used party loyalists all across the country to rig the

19:05

delegate rules in his favor, and this

19:07

is one very resonating example, which is why he's

19:10

on the ballot, Nikki Haley isn't, he gets all

19:12

those delegates just by being, just for no reason to

19:14

do anything, and he gets free delegates. It's

19:18

almost as if Trump and his

19:20

supporters have a

19:22

problem with people deciding things,

19:26

because they think that whatever they decide,

19:29

everyone else should have to live with, and

19:31

so therefore they wanna take away people's

19:33

right to choose for themselves. Yes, that

19:35

seems to be a theme that is

19:37

running through a lot here, and if

19:39

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19:42

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banner to learn more. Well

21:51

it also bleeds over to Congress even though

21:53

Trump is not an elected official right now.

21:56

He is dictating the Republican Party's

21:58

legislative strategy. Punchbowl reported that

22:00

during a closed-door meeting on Wednesday, Mitch

22:03

McConnell told Republicans that Trump doesn't want

22:05

a deal on immigration that would address

22:07

the border crisis because Trump wants to

22:09

use the problem as a campaign issue

22:11

against Joe Biden. And

22:13

McConnell reportedly said, quote, we don't want to

22:15

undermine Trump because he's going to be the

22:18

Republican nominee. This led to a

22:20

lot of grumbling among Republican senators who were close

22:22

to a deal with Democrats, including

22:24

Mitt Romney. Let's listen. I think

22:27

the border is a very important issue

22:29

for Donald Trump. And

22:31

the fact that he would communicate to

22:34

Republican senators and Congresspeople that he doesn't

22:36

want us to solve the border problem

22:38

because he wants to blame Biden

22:41

for it is really appalling.

22:43

So McConnell doesn't like Trump. He really wants

22:45

to pass Ukraine funding, which won't get done

22:48

if there's no immigration deal. Why

22:50

do you think he seems to be giving up?

22:52

It seems like there's conflicting reports

22:54

about the meeting itself. And

22:56

some Republicans are now saying, McConnell wasn't saying

22:59

we should defer to Trump, but he is

23:01

just sort of bowing to the reality that

23:03

this is what Trump wants. And therefore, they're

23:05

not going to have the Republican votes to

23:07

help pass the deal. I think

23:09

it is McConnell bowing to two realities. The

23:12

first is that his caucus was pretty divided

23:14

on this. There was a Punchbowl report from

23:17

the day before earlier this week that

23:19

detailed how the Senate

23:21

caucus lunch, Senate Republican caucus lunch

23:23

got very heated with the Josh

23:26

Hawleys and Ted Cruz of the world being

23:28

Ron Johnson being very upset about this immigration

23:30

deal and being very aggressive

23:32

and the fact that they don't know

23:34

what's in the deal. And then the other reality here

23:36

is the House is not going to

23:38

pass it. So if you're from McConnell's perspective,

23:41

you're going to anger your caucus. You're

23:44

going to anger your party nominee who you

23:46

now need to raise money

23:48

and campaign for your Senate candidates to

23:51

win in these red states where they're trying to

23:53

do it like Montana and Ohio for

23:56

a bill that is very unlikely to become law

23:58

because Mike Johnson. who's even who

24:00

is in the thrall of Trump in a way McConnell

24:02

isn't all the time has already said we're not going to

24:04

pass it we Want HR to or whatever it is

24:07

their border bill which has no chance of passing the Senate

24:09

or being signed by the president So it was like

24:11

why take on all that water for no

24:13

reason Tom

24:15

Tillis who's been negotiating the deal is also pretty

24:17

mad in addition to what Romney said he at

24:19

Tillis said It's all about politics and not having

24:21

the courage. He's talking about his fellow Senators

24:24

said it's all about politics and not having the

24:26

courage to respectfully disagree with President Trump I didn't

24:28

come here to have a president as a boss

24:30

or a candidate as a boss tough

24:32

news for your Tom Most of your

24:35

colleagues very much enjoy having Donald Trump

24:37

as a boss and see him as their boss

24:39

even though he is not I mean it is

24:41

just worth Noting that

24:43

all of these Republicans say

24:46

the border is the biggest national

24:48

security threat to the country There

24:50

was fentanyl coming across the border. They make up these

24:53

apocryphal stories about Hamas terrorists coming

24:56

across the border and Given

24:58

the opportunity to do something about it now

25:01

and something that would be pretty Republican friendly

25:03

It's kind of a once in

25:05

a generation opportunity to for them

25:07

to do border security without comprehensive

25:09

immigration reform on Their

25:12

terms with a lot of leverage they

25:14

walk away from that in Order

25:16

to help Donald Trump win an election when we

25:18

know that the deal that is that what if

25:20

Trump were to win They're

25:23

not going to get that deal because in mr.

25:25

Connell has said that that there's no way with

25:27

unified Republican government Without the leverage

25:29

of the Ukraine bill they're going to get such

25:31

a deal So they are simply they say this

25:33

is the biggest problem in the world They talk

25:35

about every single day they fomin about it dominates

25:37

Fox News and given that they would rather not

25:39

solve it in order to win Election people

25:42

will lose their lives dangerous things will happen

25:44

because of that choice And it's like you just

25:46

have to hammer on the dangerous cynicism of

25:49

what happens with Donald Trump's the charge of the Republican Party Yeah,

25:52

I mean look I I know this

25:54

might sound surprising to you, but it

25:57

doesn't seem like the political genius who

25:59

controls the Republican Party made a

26:01

very strategic move here on

26:04

this immigration bill. I know he wants to run

26:06

on the issue, but he's sort of, by being

26:08

so open about it, Trump has given, I think,

26:12

Nikki Haley if she wants it, and certainly Joe

26:15

Biden and the Democratic Party a huge

26:17

opening to just hit him over the

26:19

head with this from now until November,

26:21

that every time that Republicans talk about

26:23

the border now, Biden can say, we

26:26

were willing to meet you

26:29

halfway, work with Republicans, get something

26:31

done, and you wanted to campaign

26:33

on it. You wanted to campaign on it,

26:35

so now he can throw it in Trump's lap even though Trump's not

26:37

the incumbent. Yeah. I mean,

26:39

the best thing for President Biden, subsequently,

26:41

I think, would be to get a deal, presuming

26:44

the details of the deal are things that are acceptable

26:46

to him and his party, and

26:48

get the aid for Ukraine. That would

26:50

be a bipartisan accomplishment. Your choice is

26:52

stand on stage at this possible

26:55

debate that may or may not happen, and say,

26:57

and Trump attacks the border and say, well, I

26:59

actually did this bipartisan thing that did X, Y,

27:01

and Z, is a better

27:03

argument than you torpedoed

27:06

the deal. But

27:08

you torpedoed the deal is still a pretty good

27:10

argument, and it's one that Biden and Democrats

27:12

up and down the ballot, I think, should hammer

27:15

relentlessly. By

27:17

the way, Nikki Haley should do it in South Carolina. She

27:19

should say, this is exactly what I'm talking about. He didn't

27:22

fix the border when he was president. He doesn't care about

27:24

fixing the border now. He doesn't care about the American people.

27:26

He only cares about himself. He only cares about winning. Biden

27:28

should say the same thing if this ends

27:31

up not happening. Donald Trump killed the border deal

27:33

not because it wasn't good enough for the country, because it wasn't

27:35

good for him. I mean,

27:37

he just did this all day long. I have

27:39

a very prescriptive message box coming up about how

27:41

to talk about this tomorrow morning. Oh. It's

27:44

in the editing process now, John, just to bring you behind the

27:46

curtain. But- Meaning, it's probably out

27:48

right now. We're taking this on Thursday. You're going

27:50

to hear this Friday morning. Yeah. Depending on

27:52

how early you wake up, East Coast time, you could have already

27:54

read the message box by the time you listen to this. But

27:57

one point I want to make is... there

28:00

will be this tendency among some Democrats to use this as

28:02

a way to say, see Donald Trump's the one who's soft

28:04

on the border. Right, can't remember when

28:06

Democrats went around saying that Republicans are the ones who

28:08

defunded the police because they cut funding for local police,

28:11

which is actually a subsequently true statement. It

28:13

is subsequently true that there was a chance to

28:16

make the border more secure. Donald Trump

28:18

opposed it, therefore he is soft on the border. But

28:20

the attack has to be believable. And

28:22

voters are not gonna believe that Donald Trump,

28:24

who is known for the wall and for

28:27

cruel anti-immigrant rhetoric and

28:29

policies, you have to make

28:31

it about Donald Trump putting himself and his interests

28:33

over what's the best for the country. They will

28:35

not believe he's soft on the border, but

28:39

they will believe that he is a

28:42

self-interested narcissist and

28:44

that is the way to make this, that he is putting

28:46

politics, he's putting his own interests above the countries. And that

28:48

is the core of what I think that argument should be.

28:51

Which is, by the way, the narrative of almost

28:53

all the news we've talked about today and a

28:55

message that is available to Nikki Haley and Democrats.

28:58

Yes, and the Biden folks have been doing a lot

29:00

of this. We haven't been talking about the border yet,

29:03

but yeah. Not with the

29:05

border, because it hasn't come up yet, but for a whole bunch of

29:07

other stuff they've been doing. So I'd say

29:09

that Joe Biden is having a pretty good

29:11

week. He won 64% of the vote in

29:13

the New Hampshire primary, despite not even appearing

29:16

on the ballot. We learned on Thursday that

29:18

even though a lot of economists predicted a

29:20

recession, the economy grew at a healthy 3.1% clip

29:24

last year, which is higher growth

29:26

than any year under Donald Trump,

29:28

even before the pandemic. Biden

29:31

also won the endorsement of the United

29:33

Auto Workers, one of the biggest unions

29:35

in the country. And he joined UAW

29:38

president, Sean Fain, in an event this

29:40

week. Donald Trump is a scab. Yeah.

29:44

Donald Trump is a billionaire

29:47

and that's who he represents.

29:51

In fact, when Donald Trump was in office, six

29:53

auto factories closed around the country.

29:56

Tens of thousands of auto jobs were lost

29:58

nationwide during a train. Trump's presidency. During

30:01

my presidency, we've opened 20 auto factories

30:04

and more to come. We've

30:08

saved more than 250,000 auto

30:10

jobs all across America.

30:14

So not entirely unexpected endorsement, but still

30:17

a pretty big deal. What do you

30:19

think? Huge deal and very

30:21

important. And I think Biden

30:23

should campaign with Sean Fain as often as possible

30:25

in this election. I think Sean Fain is an

30:28

incredible messenger. I think what Biden has done for

30:31

unions, he is the most pro union

30:33

president in modern history. He has, through

30:35

his administration, and we're existing in a time

30:38

of like resurgent union power

30:40

with the organizing efforts are happening at Starbucks

30:42

and Amazon, all the places across the country.

30:45

She'd make that part of his story because it

30:48

is ultimately all politics on the economy, message

30:50

on the economy is not about what policies

30:52

you implement, it's who you're fighting for. And

30:55

the labor stuff is about Biden fighting for

30:57

working people all across the country,

30:59

big cities, small towns, white,

31:02

black, Latino, everyone. And so I think

31:04

that's an important story that should be

31:06

told everywhere. And he should be with

31:08

union members all the time. Unions have

31:10

never been more popular than they are

31:12

right now, at least in

31:14

the last 30 or so years. And take advantage

31:17

of that, use that association to tell a story

31:19

about the kind of president you have been and

31:21

will be if you get a second term. I

31:24

also think Donald Trump has always screwed over

31:26

working people. This seems like a good message,

31:29

especially when you've got all these

31:31

polls showing that most voters prefer Trump to Biden on

31:33

the economy right now. How do you think

31:35

the Biden campaign can break through with that message? Because

31:37

that's always the challenge. That

31:40

is the follow up question to everything

31:42

we say about the messaging. One

31:45

other interesting thing I want

31:47

to say there is when Biden said about the auto

31:50

plans closing under Trump, that

31:52

is not just a throwaway line. There

31:54

was some internal polling done by Democratic

31:57

groups that I saw last year that showed that one

31:59

of the better message against Trump

32:01

is that he said he was gonna keep all of

32:03

these plants and factories open and a whole bunch of

32:05

them closed. And so

32:08

he is, that's not an accident that he's doing that. And

32:10

the Biden folks ran an ad in

32:12

Michigan back when Trump was gonna do that

32:14

fake union rally. They made this exact point.

32:17

So I think we're gonna see more of that. And

32:19

it's gonna be, it's just, there's not like

32:21

one thing you're gonna do that's gonna break through.

32:23

Get in the UAW endorsement, some attention. There's gonna have to be

32:25

a bunch of ads about this. You have

32:27

to directly go at Donald Trump. You're gonna have to

32:29

do it all the time, every day. And some of

32:31

these will be the visuals you have, right? Being with

32:34

these union members, which is why Biden going to the

32:36

picket line with such a big moment, because

32:38

it was a moment that broke through. So you're gonna have to

32:40

find some of those moments as well. But it's gonna, there's not,

32:42

you're just gonna have to do it all

32:44

day, every day, with the president, with

32:46

ads, with surrogates to drive that message

32:48

home. And you have to go right

32:50

at Donald Trump on this. It can't

32:52

be subtle. Well,

32:54

I was gonna say, I think

32:56

it requires an evolution of the

32:58

Biden message around the economy, which

33:00

is like, so far, every time

33:02

there's good economic news, the Biden

33:05

folks sort of trumpet the good

33:07

economic news. You know, if

33:09

the media doesn't cover it, they criticize the

33:11

media for not covering it. And I get

33:13

why they do all that. But now that

33:15

we're in the general election against Trump, I

33:18

think, you know, you get this great economic

33:20

news today about the economy growing. By

33:22

the way, Joe Biden's been fighting

33:24

for that. He's gonna continue to fight for a

33:27

good economy. If Donald Trump gets an office again,

33:29

he has already said he can't wait to

33:31

give another huge tax cut to CEOs. And

33:34

for everyone else, he's gonna increase the cost of

33:36

your prescription drugs, increase the cost of your healthcare.

33:38

And by the way, he's gonna slap a 10%

33:40

tax on

33:43

every single good that's imported. Because

33:45

this is, he wants to bring back, he wants to do

33:47

these tariffs, which has not been getting a lot of attention.

33:49

But talk about inflation and the cost

33:51

of living. Imagine if anything that had

33:53

any parts that weren't made in America, had a

33:55

10% tax on it, what that

33:58

would do to consumers and small businesses across the country. the

34:00

country? I mean, it's crazy. I think

34:02

there is a big strategic question

34:04

that I do not know the answer to and

34:06

do not have the data to

34:09

give that answer, but that I think is

34:12

at the core, what we're talking

34:14

about here is in order to

34:16

make that case effectively, that you are better than

34:18

Trump, how much do you have to convince people

34:20

about what you have done and how it's worked?

34:23

And you sort of, and I think the Biden people,

34:26

I'm just guessing this based on, they're

34:29

not up on the air right now. So other than

34:31

this abortion ad that you

34:34

guys talked about the other day on the podcast, other

34:36

than that abortion ad, they're not up on

34:39

the air. So we're not seeing their tested

34:41

messages about the economy. We see a bunch

34:43

of tweets and some throwaway

34:45

stuff that's happening on social media, but

34:48

that stuff suggests they think it's very important

34:50

to Trump in every bit of good economic

34:52

news. Like a single economist goes on Fox

34:54

News and says something positive about the Biden

34:56

economy. They're trying to get that as many

34:58

people as possible. Now is that audience their

35:01

own voters, right? To be tribunes of

35:03

that good news. I don't know the answer to that, but ultimately,

35:05

do you have to, do you need to invest that time

35:07

and entry to convince people what you did and that it

35:09

mattered in order to get people to believe that

35:12

you are to get to that equal footing

35:14

enough where you can battle Trump on the economy? I just don't

35:16

know. Yeah. One

35:19

other piece of news from the Biden campaign,

35:21

our friends, Jen O'Malley, Dylan and Mike

35:23

Donlan are leaving the White House to

35:25

help Julie Chavez Rodriguez run the campaign

35:27

in Wilmington full time. What's your take on that move?

35:30

Look, I think that people, if they have the opportunity to move

35:32

to Wilmington Delaware should do that. I

35:35

should have expected that take from you. I did not. I

35:39

think that was something that was always going to

35:41

happen. I don't know whether this was the timing

35:43

that was always planned. Maybe if the Republican

35:45

primary had extended longer, because the

35:47

Biden people clearly think it is over. They basically said that

35:49

in their statement on Tuesday

35:52

night, but Jen and

35:54

Mike are two of the smartest, most accomplished

35:56

operatives in the Democratic Party. The

35:59

things that they do... you cannot

36:01

be, cannot, that they specialize in, can't really be done from the

36:03

White House, in the way some of the stuff that you and

36:05

I worked on can be done from the White House. Jen

36:08

is a, she's obviously a,

36:11

extremely experienced campaign manager, ran his campaign in 2020,

36:14

trying other, lots of other campaigns, but

36:16

she, what she thinks about is organizing voter

36:18

contact, how to use data to reach voters,

36:21

that you can't really do from the White House. And Mike Donilon is

36:24

an admin, he's a message guy and a speechwriter and all these other

36:26

things, so you can do some of that from the White House, since

36:28

you're a speechwriter who worked on a campaign, in

36:30

your spare time for the White House. What you

36:32

can't do is make political ads from the White

36:34

House effectively and efficiently. And Biden's gonna, and he's,

36:36

and he oversaw the billion dollar paid media budget

36:38

in 2020. I'm sure he's

36:41

gonna do the same thing here. You gotta be in the campaign to do it. So

36:43

I think this was always inevitable,

36:45

and I think it's a welcome sign that

36:47

they are quickly ramping up to be on

36:49

general election footing. Yeah, it

36:52

certainly feels this week like, all

36:54

my Nikki Haley fantasies notwithstanding, the general election

36:57

has begun and the Biden people get that

36:59

and they are ramping up as well and

37:02

everyone's starting to see a lot more of Trump. So hopefully

37:05

things start getting going from now on. All

37:07

right, two quick housekeeping notes before break. Love

37:09

it or Leave It is coming to Washington

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DC on April 25th for a big show

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joins to talk about why she thinks Texas

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using migrants as political pawns. Check it out

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in the What a Day feed wherever you

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welcome Napot Save America They to be

39:18

with you John They could fab and

39:20

me appreciate it. Yeah. I

39:22

mean, so in two thousand and four, I

39:25

was working on John Kerry's campaign while you're

39:27

working under Bush see me relax and a

39:29

someone had told me that obsessive physicists the

39:31

two of us would be chatting about how

39:34

to save American democracy from the a former

39:36

host of The Apprentice. I have a few

39:38

questions. Yeah, exactly exactly. But

39:41

here we are as. So

39:43

it's the day after Donald Trump won the

39:45

New Hampshire Primary. What do you make of

39:47

Nikki Haley's decision to stay in the race

39:49

and die and Dc path for. Yeah

39:52

looked at me. I hope she says in

39:54

the race. In l As

39:56

long as. As. She asked to it and I

39:58

think. Certainly. know, through Super Tuesday.

40:00

I think that

40:03

we're in a situation where only two

40:05

states have voted and you had something like,

40:07

you know, over 35% I believe of the Republicans

40:10

coming out of

40:12

the voting in New Hampshire said

40:15

they would never vote for Donald Trump. And

40:18

so we're obviously,

40:20

you know, looking at a significant

40:23

portion of the Republican Party that

40:26

is supporting him. But

40:29

ultimately this is going to be about

40:31

being able to win independence and

40:33

in a general election. Surely

40:36

Nikki Haley fares much better than Donald Trump

40:38

does. And

40:41

even more important than that is where you began,

40:43

which is the threat that he

40:46

poses. What we watched him do in

40:48

the lead up to January 6th, his

40:50

attempt to seize power, presents

40:53

an existential threat. And so we need to make

40:55

sure that we're challenging him and working

40:57

to defeat him at every step of the way.

40:59

And right now

41:01

Nikki Haley is in this fight and

41:03

I think she ought to stay in it. Are

41:07

you officially supporting Haley over Trump now that it's

41:09

just the two of them left? Or do you

41:11

not? Might that hurt her? I have, yeah. I

41:13

mean, I haven't made any formal endorsements

41:17

at this point, but certainly I would never

41:20

support or vote for Donald Trump again.

41:23

You said you're considering a third-party run

41:25

for president, but that you won't do

41:28

anything that would help Trump win. Have

41:31

you seen any data that suggests a

41:33

run by any independent candidate would help

41:35

defeat Trump and not help elect him?

41:39

I certainly think that there

41:43

are people on both sides

41:45

of the aisle. There are Republicans and Democrats

41:48

and you've seen all the polling that shows 70% of

41:51

people are dissatisfied with having

41:53

the choice be Trump versus Biden. And

41:57

so I think it matters very much. you

42:00

know, what the overall terrain

42:03

looks like. I

42:05

think that we certainly are going to

42:07

have more than two parties in this

42:10

race. You've already got independents on

42:13

the left. And I

42:15

think we'll see what happens. Again,

42:17

my number one priority is defeating

42:19

him. And I think

42:22

that's going to guide whatever, ultimately, I decide

42:24

I'm going to do. Does

42:27

that involve, could you

42:29

imagine telling Republicans and conservatives like you to

42:31

vote for the Democratic nominee if it comes

42:33

down to that? I mean, look,

42:36

what I have done, certainly beginning in the

42:38

2022 midterms, is support

42:42

people that I believe are going to defend the

42:44

Constitution. And I did

42:46

that with respect to

42:48

Abigail Spanberger and Alyssa Slotkin, two

42:52

Democrats, members of the House that

42:54

I know well and served with. And

42:57

my message to people all across this

42:59

country has been, look, this is not

43:01

an election about partisan politics. This

43:04

is an election about whether or not we're going

43:06

to stand up for our democracy and for the

43:08

Constitution. So again, I'm not endorsing

43:10

anybody. I'm not telling people whom they

43:13

should vote for. But

43:15

certainly, they should not ever, again, entrust Donald

43:18

Trump with the power that

43:20

we watched him abuse once and that he tells

43:22

us every day he will abuse again if he's

43:24

ever entrusted with it. I

43:26

want to ask you about making the case against Trump. I've

43:28

heard of focus groups where Republican

43:31

and independent voters who supported Joe

43:33

Biden last time say, I

43:35

don't like Trump. I think he's a bad person,

43:37

but I'm much more worried about cost of living

43:39

or the southern border, or I just don't think

43:42

Joe Biden can handle the job for another four

43:44

years. And I think Trump

43:46

did a better job with the economy, and the

43:48

country survived Trump's first term. So maybe

43:50

I'll just hold my nose and vote for him.

43:53

What do you say to that voter? And more

43:56

specifically, how do you make the threat

43:58

that Trump poses to democracy? real

44:00

to voters who may not feel the

44:02

urgency that you and I do? Yeah,

44:05

it's a really important question. I think there are a

44:07

couple of pieces to it. One is

44:09

I would say, you know, what's

44:11

happening right now at the border is absolutely

44:14

indefensible. And, um, you know,

44:16

I, I talked to my

44:19

new democratic friends, uh, and

44:21

I can't understand why the

44:23

Biden administration doesn't take steps to secure the

44:25

border. It makes no sense to me. Um,

44:28

you know, the, the extent to which you've

44:30

got democratic mayors of cities across

44:32

the country pleading with, um,

44:35

the president to secure the border. Um,

44:37

you know, it, it, that

44:39

is an issue. That's a very

44:42

real issue that, that understandably drives

44:44

voters. Um, now

44:46

I think that, that the overall message

44:48

though, is the nation is at

44:50

a moment here where, um, hopefully

44:53

we'll have other choices. Um,

44:56

but the choice can never be Donald Trump and

44:58

people have to understand that he's not the lesser

45:00

of two evils. If you look at

45:02

some of the opinion polling from last summer, and again,

45:04

most recently in the last couple of

45:06

weeks, um, you

45:08

see that, that there are significant numbers of

45:11

people who, um, say they

45:13

don't know enough. They don't have enough information

45:16

about what Donald Trump did, for

45:18

example, to make judgments about, um, whether

45:20

or not some of the, uh, indictments

45:23

against them are political or not. And

45:25

so I do think that there's a

45:27

big task in terms of, uh, helping

45:30

educate people, helping make sure people understand,

45:32

um, specifically the steps

45:34

that he took, the

45:36

plan that he oversaw to try to overturn

45:39

an election. And, and I think that,

45:41

that, that education piece is going to

45:43

be crucial. Um, I also

45:45

think that ultimately this election is going to

45:47

be won or lost as they always are

45:49

in, in a handful of swing States. And

45:52

those happen to be the States, um,

45:55

where Donald Trump attempted to nullify

45:57

the votes of millions of those

45:59

voters. 2020. And so

46:02

I think going into those states, making sure people

46:04

there understand, this is a guy

46:06

that tried to seize power last time and the

46:08

method that he used to do it, one

46:10

of the parts of his plan was

46:13

to reject your votes, to say

46:16

that, you know, members of Congress can

46:18

decide they're going to reject your votes and

46:20

instead install the person they want, which was

46:22

him. And he's going to have

46:24

to go into those states and make the

46:26

case that those people ought to entrust him

46:29

with power and with defending and protecting

46:31

their vote. And I think that's going to be challenging

46:34

for him. Before we move on,

46:36

you mentioned the border issue

46:39

and, you know, there's been

46:41

these negotiations. Biden

46:43

and Senate Democrats have moved

46:45

towards Republicans on this issue. They say they want to

46:47

do something about the border. I thought they were close

46:49

to a deal. And then, you know, just as we

46:52

were talking, apparently Mitch

46:54

McConnell said, well, Trump wants to run the border,

46:56

so they don't want us to do anything about

46:58

that. And that's what Mike Johnson's kind of been

47:00

saying, too. So this is it seems like that's

47:02

part of the issue is that even

47:04

when Democrats want to work constructively

47:07

with Republicans, Republicans then want to

47:09

block it and then blame

47:11

the Democrats for not fixing anything. Yeah,

47:14

I mean, this case in particular

47:16

just strikes me as, you know,

47:20

really disgusting. You

47:23

know, if it's true that McConnell

47:26

said, you know, basically, you know, we thought we

47:28

had a deal, but now it looks like, you

47:30

know, Trump's going to be the nominee and he

47:32

wants to run on this. I mean,

47:35

that that is so cynical

47:38

and irresponsible

47:40

and, you

47:43

know, surprising, frankly. We

47:46

all know how dangerous the situation is at the border.

47:48

I think, you know, as

47:50

I said, the Biden administration, you know,

47:53

deserves real criticism for the fact that they

47:56

haven't secured the border. But

47:58

now the Republicans. Republican

48:00

leader to be saying, well, we're not going

48:03

to take any action because Trump doesn't want

48:05

us to. You

48:07

know, that just, I think, confirms

48:09

what everybody's frustrations are about about

48:11

politics today and is

48:13

just really, really cynical and sad

48:16

that that's the position they're taking. I'm

48:18

sure you heard that Senator Romney

48:20

was saying like, oh, Biden needs a new

48:23

argument because the democracy thing is old. And

48:25

I've heard a lot of people say it's

48:27

just it's hard to make it tangible for

48:29

people when their concerns

48:32

might be more immediate. Do

48:34

you have thoughts on sort of how to

48:36

make the threat of a Trump second term

48:38

real to people? Yeah, I

48:40

think that, you know, I

48:42

have huge respect for Senator Romney, but I disagree

48:44

with him on this. And I think,

48:46

you know, part of this is making

48:50

sure people understand what Trump

48:52

did already. And I

48:54

think making sure, you know, if you look at

48:56

the extent to which, for example,

48:59

he's working so hard to delay his

49:02

January 6th trial and

49:05

reminding people that the reason he's doing that

49:07

is because he wants to suppress

49:09

that evidence. The witnesses in

49:11

that trial aren't going to be his

49:13

political opponents. The people that,

49:15

you know, have testified about his

49:18

attempt to, you know, corruptly pressure the

49:21

Department of Justice to corruptly pressure the

49:23

vice president to get him to do

49:25

things that were illegal and unconstitutional. The

49:28

people who are going to testify to

49:31

the January 6th committee about

49:34

Trump's refusal for hours to

49:36

tell the mob to leave the Capitol,

49:40

you know, those people are the ones who know Trump best.

49:43

And of course, he doesn't want that

49:45

information out there before the election. But

49:47

I think it's fundamentally important that people understand

49:49

why he's trying to delay that. And

49:52

I think the more that we can make

49:54

sure we have in front of people what

49:58

those individuals have said. what his

50:00

White House counsel said, what

50:02

his attorney general said, what

50:04

the head of his last

50:06

campaign said, those aren't Democrats. Those

50:11

are people Trump hired, what

50:13

members of his family said, about

50:16

the depravity of his unwillingness

50:21

while he watched on television that violent attack,

50:23

his unwillingness to tell people to stop. That

50:26

gets to sort of a fundamental human question

50:28

about what kind of a man is this.

50:32

And I think that people will recognize

50:34

and understand the threat that he poses. You're

50:37

a lawyer and probably know more about

50:39

the election subversion charges against Trump than

50:42

anyone but Jack Smith and his team.

50:44

If you were them, what would be keeping

50:46

you up at night? Look, I

50:48

think if you look at the

50:51

work that the Select Committee did

50:53

and the

50:55

criminal referrals that we made, certainly,

50:58

obviously, Jack

51:01

Smith has secured

51:04

his own testimony and witnesses have come in

51:06

and testified in front of his grand jury.

51:08

And it's that process on which the charges

51:11

are based. But they

51:13

track very closely with

51:15

what the Select Committee was able

51:17

to learn during our investigation.

51:21

And I think that one

51:24

of the things that we have seen to date

51:26

that's been so important has

51:29

been the extent to which our courts

51:31

have played the role that they're supposed

51:33

to play in terms of all the

51:35

institutions of our government. With

51:39

a couple of exceptions, we've

51:41

seen judges be very responsible

51:44

and even-handed and approach

51:47

this with the gravity that it deserves.

51:51

I think that what

51:53

we're watching, but anybody who cares about the rule of

51:55

law, has

51:57

to be deeply concerned about is Donald

52:00

Trump's efforts really on a daily

52:02

basis to tear it down, to use

52:06

threats of violence, to

52:08

attack fundamental, you

52:10

know, the individuals who are involved in these

52:12

cases, as well as the institutions themselves. And

52:15

I think that that should cause

52:17

grave concern, the fact that you've got somebody

52:19

who's willing to do that who's so close

52:21

again to being the

52:24

nominee of one of the two major political parties.

52:27

Do you have any concern that the

52:29

Supreme Court will decide that the charge

52:31

of corruptly obstructing an official proceeding somehow

52:33

doesn't apply to Donald Trump's attempt to

52:35

overturn the election? Well,

52:38

my view on that is very clear. And I think,

52:40

in fact, you

52:42

know, the question has been

52:45

one interpretation of that statute

52:47

that would

52:49

basically hold

52:52

that it only applies in an

52:54

instance where there was an attempt to destroy

52:57

documents or an attempt to falsify

52:59

documents that was very focused on

53:01

this concept of documents.

53:04

And of course, we know that what

53:07

Donald Trump was doing included things

53:09

like ensuring that

53:11

there were fake fraudulent electors

53:15

submitted to the Congress, submitted to

53:17

the vice president. So

53:19

even in a very narrow reading of

53:23

1512 c two, I think

53:26

it's pretty clear, as a select 20 pointed out that Donald

53:28

Trump's that that reading

53:30

would cover Donald Trump's actions in this case.

53:33

And I think it's also important

53:35

to understand that, you know, that the case that's in

53:37

front of the Supreme Court on that issue is not

53:39

a case that involves Trump. It's a case that involves

53:42

one of the rioters. And

53:44

I some, you know, no matter how they hold

53:46

in that case, Donald Trump's

53:49

connection to, in

53:52

particular, the effort to falsify

53:54

electors and ensure that those are presented to

53:56

Congress clearly fits within the

53:58

plain meaning in the interest. to that statute.

54:02

What scares you most about a second Trump term? The

54:06

extent to which we know

54:08

that as president, he will refuse to enforce

54:10

the rulings of our courts. And

54:13

I think it's really important for people to

54:15

understand what that means. You

54:17

know, we're only a nation of laws

54:21

if the president enforces the rulings of the

54:23

courts. And

54:25

to have someone like Donald

54:27

Trump, who we know won't do that, who

54:30

we've already seen, we've watched

54:33

the extent to which he's talked about

54:35

a president deserving complete and absolute immunity.

54:39

The people that he would have around him, if

54:41

you look at the story of January 6th and

54:44

the days and weeks leading up to it, he

54:47

was stopped from doing even

54:49

worse things

54:51

because of some of the people around him. And

54:53

those people won't be around him again. I

54:57

also, you know, if you look at the people

54:59

that he's likely to put in place, people like

55:01

Mike Flynn, you know, those

55:03

are the very people that we're suggesting he

55:05

ought to deploy the military in order to

55:07

seize voting machines and rerun the

55:09

election in swing states. So

55:12

he presents an existential threat. There's

55:14

no question. I mean, the

55:16

list goes on. If you

55:18

look at, for example, what he

55:21

says every day about praising

55:24

Xi, praising Orban,

55:26

praising Putin, the

55:30

threats that we're going to withdraw

55:32

from NATO, for example, you know,

55:34

you very quickly get into a

55:36

whole series of very serious national security

55:38

threats as well. But

55:41

it's clear that the fundamental threat

55:43

to the rule of law, to the

55:45

republic itself, you know,

55:47

is it really is an existential one. Yeah,

55:50

I've heard you talk about that. And I hadn't really

55:52

thought about it myself was that, you know, a lot

55:55

of people are concerned like, oh, will the court do

55:57

this or that? It's a more conservative court. It's

56:00

very possible that the court could

56:02

just issue rulings and Trump ignores

56:04

them. The court doesn't have any

56:06

way to enforce those rulings. He

56:08

can appoint whoever he'd like. Obviously,

56:10

there's Senate-confirmed positions, but he can

56:12

get around Senate-confirmed positions by just

56:14

putting people temporarily in place, like

56:16

Mike Flynn, put them in place

56:18

at the Defense Department. That

56:21

does seem like a real, real concern. Well,

56:24

and sometimes you hear conservatives, the

56:26

Wall Street Journal editorial page, for

56:28

example, repeatedly says, well, we

56:30

have the balance of power. We have these checks and

56:32

balances. We don't have to worry about

56:34

it. But people really need

56:36

to think about which Republicans exactly in the

56:38

House and Senate are going to stand up

56:40

and stop him. It's hard for me to

56:42

think of any who will. And

56:45

so I think it's

56:48

another reason why I think

56:51

what we're seeing go on today,

56:53

specifically, for example, with Ronna

56:56

McDaniel, the chair of the

56:58

RNC, suggesting that she's determined

57:00

that this race is over.

57:05

That's inappropriate, to say the least,

57:08

for the chairperson of the

57:10

RNC to be asserting that the

57:12

primary is over when it's not over. And

57:16

for her to be doing it when we

57:18

know she was personally involved

57:20

in the fraudulent electors scheme, recently

57:25

we've learned that she was also involved

57:27

in, reportedly,

57:29

Trump's phone call to the officials

57:32

in Michigan to try to get them

57:34

to reverse their certification. So

57:36

this is activities

57:40

and behavior that

57:42

really are un-American and un-democratic. And

57:46

I think it's important

57:48

that we ensure that

57:50

the system play

57:52

out, but first and foremost, that

57:54

Donald Trump be defeated. You're

57:58

out there speaking out against Trump. You

58:00

hear Romney do this, Adam Kinzinger. There's

58:03

a lot more Republican politicians and

58:05

former Trump officials who've criticized Trump

58:07

in the past. Do you

58:09

expect them to be out there more as now that

58:11

we're in 2024 speaking

58:13

out against Trump? Do you think that

58:15

would make a difference? I do. I

58:18

think it will make a difference. I think that it's going

58:20

to be very important that we

58:23

have in an organized way and

58:25

also people doing it on their

58:27

own, individuals who have

58:29

seen him up close, who've worked with him up

58:31

close and who know the danger that he poses.

58:34

And again, it's an unprecedented

58:36

moment. Normally, particularly

58:38

people who are retired military

58:40

officers, as you know, would not be

58:43

engaged in speaking out. But

58:47

it's really important for people to understand the

58:49

facts and the truth. And in

58:51

some cases you've seen, for example, retired

58:54

general Kelly confirmed

58:56

some of the most horrible things

58:58

that Donald Trump did

59:00

and said about our men and

59:02

women in uniform. And those

59:05

voices really, really matter. That

59:07

credibility is really important. You

59:10

mentioned your former colleagues in the House. Are

59:12

there any House Republicans you think are doing

59:14

a good job right now that you would

59:16

vote for? Sure.

59:19

I think that it's a big

59:21

conference and there

59:24

are good people that are good Republicans,

59:27

certainly in office. And

59:30

I think that the Republican

59:33

Conference as a whole right now has

59:36

allowed the most extreme

59:38

voices control. And

59:40

I'm not a

59:42

fan of Mike Johnson, the current Speaker of the

59:44

House. You know, I watched him conduct

59:47

himself in a way that he was

59:49

doing things he knew to be wrong with respect

59:51

to the efforts to overturn the election. So

59:54

I think you've got a real problem with the

59:57

way that the conference is led. You've

1:00:00

got over half now the

1:00:02

Republicans in the House have endorsed Trump.

1:00:06

And so I think that clearly there

1:00:08

are some significant problems. But there are also

1:00:11

some really good people who are

1:00:13

doing a good job and representing their constituents

1:00:16

well and who I hope will

1:00:18

help come together once we get past

1:00:20

24 and help to rebuild

1:00:22

the Republican Party or build a new

1:00:25

party, frankly, that can really be

1:00:27

focused on the substance of these issues. You

1:00:30

recently called Elise Stefanik a total

1:00:32

crackpot. No disagreement from you there. In

1:00:35

your book, you write about how

1:00:37

she underwent this dramatic transition from

1:00:39

being a reasonable and thoughtful lawmaker

1:00:41

to a Trump sycophant. Can

1:00:44

you talk more about what it was like

1:00:46

to watch that evolution? Because I'm sure there

1:00:48

are many other Republican politicians who have taken

1:00:50

that same path. Yeah, I mean, it

1:00:53

never ceases to amaze me. I

1:00:55

mean, we saw it again last night,

1:00:57

for example, with Tim Scott. I mean,

1:01:00

you've got members who used to

1:01:05

be responsible and thoughtful and

1:01:08

honorable. And now

1:01:11

for some reason, they feel that they

1:01:13

can sort of jettison all of that in

1:01:16

the name of loyalty to Trump. And

1:01:19

I think there are a number of reasons why

1:01:21

it goes on. But

1:01:24

one of the episodes that

1:01:26

I talk about in the book has to

1:01:28

do with what

1:01:31

we were hearing after the election,

1:01:33

but before January 6, when members

1:01:36

would sometimes say, well, let's just do this one

1:01:38

more thing for him. If we just do this

1:01:40

one more thing, then

1:01:43

that'll be it. And then

1:01:45

he'll concede, or we can all

1:01:47

move on. But that

1:01:49

one more thing becomes a slippery slope.

1:01:52

And once you've done just

1:01:54

one more thing, and then you do just one more

1:01:56

thing, people

1:01:59

begin to rap. rationalize and

1:02:02

and you get to a point where you've sort of

1:02:04

you cross you cross the Rubicon and if you

1:02:06

rationalize defending him

1:02:09

after he tried to seize power and

1:02:11

overturn an election It's

1:02:13

pretty hard to to walk walk back from

1:02:15

that and so You

1:02:18

know, but but what I would say is all

1:02:21

all of the individuals who are doing that, you know

1:02:23

history teaches us that When

1:02:26

autocrats come to power they have

1:02:28

to have people who are willing to support

1:02:31

them and enable them and Collaborate

1:02:34

with them and and history will

1:02:36

you know judge them? In

1:02:40

my view as harshly as as it

1:02:42

will judge Trump because he can't do

1:02:44

what he's doing without without them I

1:02:48

know a lot of never Trump Republicans whose

1:02:50

whose politics and even policy views have changed

1:02:52

as a result of Trump Some of them

1:02:54

are basically Democrats now some are independents I

1:02:56

know you're a proud conservative you and your

1:02:58

family have been in Republican politics your whole

1:03:01

lives But I've even noticed

1:03:03

that that your rhetoric about your policy

1:03:05

and political differences with Democrats has has

1:03:07

softened over the last few years Has

1:03:11

the Trump threat and the in the transformation

1:03:13

of the Republican Party into a Trump Party

1:03:15

caused you To rethink any

1:03:17

of your policy positions or or

1:03:20

political approach? Um my

1:03:23

policy views haven't changed

1:03:26

but Living

1:03:30

through the last three years and

1:03:32

living through this moment in our

1:03:34

politics has certainly caused

1:03:38

Caused me to think again

1:03:41

and more carefully about how I engage

1:03:43

in politics and You

1:03:46

know, I think you started

1:03:48

talking about the 2004 race You know,

1:03:51

we've been involved in many

1:03:53

campaigns Many partisan

1:03:55

and ideological battles and I'm not

1:03:57

opposed to you know, our nation

1:04:00

needs partisan debate. We need to be able

1:04:02

to do that, but I

1:04:04

think the reflexive sort of, you

1:04:07

know, well, if the Democrats

1:04:09

are proposing this, let me pull my talking

1:04:11

points out to find the harshest way I

1:04:13

can attack that, and the Democrats do the

1:04:16

same thing to Republicans. And I

1:04:18

think that that kind

1:04:20

of reflexive attack and

1:04:23

the kind of toxicity

1:04:25

that we've seen

1:04:28

really is something we all

1:04:30

have to turn away from. And I think

1:04:33

the best debates and, you know,

1:04:35

the reason, for example, why I

1:04:37

supported people like Abigail and Alyssa,

1:04:40

not because I agree with them on everything, but

1:04:43

I know, like, look, if I'm going

1:04:45

to be in a debate with Abigail

1:04:47

Spanberger, I better be prepared because she's going

1:04:49

to be prepared. And I

1:04:52

hope we'll both learn something. And you want to be

1:04:54

engaged with people. You can sit down and say, listen,

1:04:57

tell me why you believe that, because

1:04:59

I believe this. And here's why I

1:05:01

believe this. But I

1:05:03

think the country needs a lot more of that. And

1:05:07

I think we have to really

1:05:09

walk back from the

1:05:12

edge of the

1:05:14

toxic nature of our politics. And

1:05:17

the extreme

1:05:19

of that is what

1:05:21

Donald Trump has done with respect to bringing

1:05:24

violence back into our politics in a way

1:05:26

it hasn't been, you know, in

1:05:28

the modern era. Do you think

1:05:30

that's possible to do with this point, even

1:05:32

if Trump is defeated in 2024? I heard

1:05:35

you talk about building possibly a

1:05:37

new party after 2024. What

1:05:40

would that look like? And what's

1:05:42

made you hopeful that there is

1:05:44

a critical mass of conservatives or

1:05:46

Republicans like you who

1:05:48

would actually join that party? Just

1:05:50

looking at the results of

1:05:53

what Republican voters have been choosing over the

1:05:55

last several years? Yeah, what

1:05:58

makes me hopeful is... As

1:06:00

I travel around the country and I talk

1:06:03

to lots of people and the vast

1:06:06

majority of Americans,

1:06:09

whether they're Republicans or Democrats,

1:06:13

they want their kids to grow up in a country that's

1:06:15

free. They think America

1:06:17

ought to have the peaceful transfer of power. They

1:06:21

want their elected officials to

1:06:24

conduct themselves in a way that isn't

1:06:26

embarrassing. One

1:06:29

of the things I think is really important is for us

1:06:31

to get more people to run for office because

1:06:34

if you – and we used

1:06:36

to talk a lot about this

1:06:38

actually, the Republican impeachers.

1:06:42

If you look at the challenges we're

1:06:44

facing and the complexity of

1:06:46

those challenges, both internationally

1:06:48

and domestically, and then you look at

1:06:50

the caliber of the people that are

1:06:52

getting elected today, and the

1:06:54

gap is huge. And we're like taking

1:06:56

people that are not competent, putting

1:06:59

them in office, and then saying, now,

1:07:01

here, could you figure out these really

1:07:03

complicated strategic issues and think through this

1:07:05

in a thoughtful manner? And

1:07:08

that's going to lead to disaster. So we

1:07:11

need people that have better choices. We need

1:07:13

more people to run. I think

1:07:15

we need to look at things like ranked

1:07:17

choice voting. We need to

1:07:19

look at how we conduct our primaries. I

1:07:23

think we need to look at term limits. I think

1:07:25

there are some constitutional problems with term

1:07:27

limits, and I have not been supportive

1:07:30

of term limits in the past,

1:07:32

but I think that if

1:07:34

elected officials, in

1:07:37

order to get them to do the right thing, need

1:07:39

to not be focused on the next race, then it

1:07:41

may be time for us to take another

1:07:43

look at term limits. Last

1:07:46

question. What's it been like to become

1:07:49

an unlikely resistance hero?

1:07:52

Disorienting? Yeah,

1:07:54

it is. I mean, look, it's definitely weird. in

1:08:01

some ways. But

1:08:04

look, it also,

1:08:06

it's one of the things that

1:08:09

does give me hope is how many

1:08:12

people have sort of said like, you

1:08:14

know, and especially young people,

1:08:17

like, they don't really, they don't think about,

1:08:19

well, am I a Republican or Democrat? You know,

1:08:21

they're saying, you know, are we

1:08:23

going to live in a country that's

1:08:27

governed by the Constitution? And

1:08:29

I think that kind of unity

1:08:31

and understanding and desire

1:08:33

to work on these issues, that

1:08:36

gives me a lot of hope. And, and I,

1:08:39

I really do in a lot of

1:08:41

ways, you know, I look forward very much

1:08:43

to the day when, you know, when I

1:08:46

can come on your show and we can

1:08:48

have an argument. Yeah, and you know, then

1:08:50

we'll know like, okay, we got past this

1:08:52

really huge threat. And so now

1:08:54

we can talk about, you know, what our national

1:08:57

security policy ought to look like. And

1:08:59

I think that's, that'll,

1:09:01

that'll be how we know that we

1:09:03

succeeded here. Yeah, well, look,

1:09:06

I've often over the last couple years, I've done

1:09:08

a thought experiment with myself, which is, okay,

1:09:10

say there was a president who's a

1:09:13

Democratic president, and they're

1:09:15

very progressive. And you know, we could get

1:09:17

and there's a progressive Supreme Court and a

1:09:19

progressive majority in the House and Senate, we

1:09:22

could get everything we wanted policy wise as

1:09:24

progressives. But that president is doing what Trump

1:09:26

did and not respecting the rule of law

1:09:29

and trying to overturn elections and trying to

1:09:31

stay in power. And I really hope that

1:09:33

not only me, but like everyone

1:09:35

else who I know who are Democrats would stand

1:09:37

up and speak out like you did. So I

1:09:40

know, I know it wasn't easy. I know it

1:09:42

probably hasn't been easy, both professionally and personally. So

1:09:44

I respect what you

1:09:46

what you've done these last couple years. Well,

1:09:48

I appreciate your saying that. And,

1:09:50

and I think there are a

1:09:52

lot more people out there who

1:09:54

understand and will

1:09:57

ensure by voting against

1:09:59

him. we don't end up with Donald Trump in the

1:10:01

White House again. But we're going to all have to work together

1:10:03

to do that. Yeah. Uh, Liz

1:10:05

Cheney, thanks for coming on Pod Save America. And

1:10:07

I hope next time that you're on, we, uh,

1:10:09

we can argue about policy. I know me too.

1:10:12

I'll look forward to it. Take

1:10:14

care. Thanks. Bye bye. Thanks

1:10:20

to Liz Cheney for joining us today. Everyone have

1:10:22

a great weekend and we'll talk to you next

1:10:24

week. Thanks to Liz Cheney. Something I

1:10:26

never thought I would hear on our podcast, but

1:10:28

you know what? So great. Ligimit,

1:10:31

legitimately. Thank you to Liz Cheney. Yeah,

1:10:33

for sure. Bye everyone. Our

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