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1:30

Welcome to Pod Save America. John Favreau.

1:32

I'm Dan Pfeiffer. On today's show, Hershel

1:34

Walker gets caught paying for a girlfriend's abortion.

1:37

Control of the senate hangs in the balance, Maggie

1:39

Haberman joins to talk about being Donald Trump

1:41

psychiatrist, and Elijah's got

1:43

some piping hot takes ready for

1:46

another round of take appreciator.

1:48

But

1:48

first, Check out Crooked Radio

1:50

every weekend in October on SiriusXM

1:53

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1:56

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1:56

be able to hear our election coverage lineup

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slash crooked.

2:30

Also, if

2:31

you haven't caught up on this season of the wilderness,

2:34

Take a listen this weekend. I am talking

2:36

to voters who aren't hooked on Twitter or cable

2:38

news to find out how they think about

2:40

politics and what it will take to actually

2:42

reach them to help save democracy

2:44

in twenty twenty two and beyond. You can

2:47

now catch up on the first four episodes of

2:49

the wilderness And then I got

2:51

two more episodes coming out every

2:53

Monday wherever you get your podcasts. So

2:56

we got I did a group in

2:58

Vegas that's coming out this Monday of

3:00

working class Latinos in Las Vegas. Question.

3:03

And What day of the week did you do the group? in

3:05

I did it on a Friday. Was that the only you

3:07

did? Friday night. The only people who

3:09

were available or just a Friday.

3:11

Like, you would have done Monday, obviously, but just

3:13

happened to be the Friday. Look, couple

3:15

of my friends happened to also be there that

3:18

Yeah. Correct. That night. What what's it?

3:20

Some You're the real Your dedication

3:22

to our democracies. I want

3:25

to find out what's on people's minds,

3:27

and then the last group

3:29

is younger black voters

3:31

in Atlanta did that after our last PSA

3:33

live show in Atlanta in August, and that's coming

3:35

out a week from Monday. But listen to all the episodes,

3:37

fantastic stuff to hearing from these

3:39

voters and some stuff that will make you really mad.

3:42

But it's important to know. It's important to

3:44

know. Alright. Let's get to the news.

3:47

In one of the great news breaks

3:49

right after we recorded moments in Pod Save

3:51

America history, the

3:53

daily beast reported on Monday

3:55

night that Hershel Walker, the Republican senate candidate

3:57

in Georgia, urged a woman he was dating

3:59

in two thousand nine to get an abortion, reimbursed

4:02

her for the procedure, and then sent her

4:04

a GetWell card. And we know this

4:06

because the woman provided a copy

4:08

of the check, the receipt, and

4:11

the get well card. But

4:13

wait, Dan, there's more. The

4:16

news gods are at least temporarily smiling

4:18

here on the Thursday pod because last

4:20

night, the Daily Beast also

4:22

revealed that the woman in question

4:24

isn't so anonymous after all, she's

4:26

actually the mother of one of Walker's children

4:29

whom he has already publicly acknowledged

4:31

as his own. Walker,

4:33

of course, is in favor of a federal

4:35

abortion ban with no exceptions for

4:37

anyone but apparently himself, and

4:40

he has responded. by threatening

4:42

to sue the Daily Beast for defamation, which

4:44

he has not done all week, and

4:46

conducting unintelligible interviews with

4:48

right wing pundits here he is

4:51

Thursday morning with

4:52

Hugh Hewitt. And if that had happened,

4:54

I would've I would've said, you know, there's nothing to

4:56

be ashamed of there. You

4:58

know, people have done that, but know

5:00

nothing about it. I know nothing about it.

5:02

But if I had done it, it is

5:04

not something to be ashamed of. But I

5:06

have not heard of it. Right. but also

5:08

I've been forgiven for it, which he says in

5:10

the next clip. So Yeah. I've been forgiving for

5:12

it, but I haven't done it. But I've been forgiven

5:15

for not doing what I have said I have not

5:17

But if I had done to be very clear. Yes.

5:21

Alright. This egregious example

5:23

of lying in hypocrisy on one of the most

5:25

important issues of the campaign should

5:27

of course end Walker's candidacy.

5:29

But also, we live

5:30

here in the year twenty twenty two. So what do

5:33

you think? Are

5:35

you asking me whether

5:37

a candidate running on

5:39

a platform of an apportionment with no

5:41

exceptions? ended the year in which

5:43

Rovi Wade was overturned is

5:46

revealed to have paid for an abortion. Could

5:48

be harmful to yes. I think it could be harmful. So

5:50

we problematic perhaps It's not problematic.

5:53

It's not great. I remember once working

5:57

in politics a hundred

5:58

years ago and a candidate who ever

6:00

for did something completely insane. And

6:02

Ron Klean, who was

6:03

involved in and sent me an email

6:06

saying, this would be an a plus

6:08

answer to how to lose a

6:10

campaign. So this

6:14

this that's what this would be. But We

6:16

also like to live in a world where and maybe

6:18

this there

6:18

was a time in politics in the not too

6:20

distant past where this would literally

6:22

be it. the money would would dry

6:24

up, Republican leaders would distance

6:26

themselves, you the the NRSC

6:29

or McConnell would walk away from him.

6:31

you know, religious leaders or Republicans in

6:33

Georgia would walk away. No one would be seen on

6:35

the stump with him. But we don't live in that

6:37

world anymore. That's not how it works. And there

6:39

is there's this interesting polling

6:41

number that's been going around from

6:43

the Public Religion Research Institute, which has

6:45

some really interesting polling. In twenty

6:47

eleven, they asked Republican voters.

6:50

do you think a candidate who committed

6:52

an immoral act in private could

6:54

be ethical in public and fulfill their duties?

6:56

And only thirty six percent of

6:58

Republican to two thousand eleven, thought that? In

7:00

two thousand twenty one, that number is seventy

7:02

percent. And that's not a that that is

7:04

not a crazy thing. I mean, it's not that

7:06

long ago that a lot of Democrats supported

7:09

Bill Clinton because they thought he could be a

7:12

ethical good leader in the White House

7:14

even if he if his personal conduct

7:16

was important, you know, as we dealt with in the late

7:18

nineties, but that is sort of what has

7:20

changed here is twofold one Republican

7:23

leaders will stick with them. Trump has proven

7:25

there is no price for that

7:27

the actual dangerous to

7:29

walk away too early than to stick around too late

7:31

when the candidate did something wrong. And

7:34

so could this affect the race that absolutely will

7:36

affect the race? Is this the end of Churchill Walker's

7:38

campaign? Absolutely not. Do you

7:40

think the difference here is it's

7:42

not just conduct in

7:44

his private life that is the issue.

7:47

It is the fact that he

7:49

is running on an

7:51

abortion ban with no exceptions. But,

7:53

you know, the exception is, of course, for him.

7:56

And so, basically, the message is

7:59

Republican politicians

7:59

the

8:00

wanna ban abortion for everyone

8:03

except Republican politicians. Yeah.

8:05

Yeah. This is this is not good.

8:07

I mean, he is someone who says abortion

8:09

is murder. and then turns out

8:11

he paid for

8:12

divorce. And since

8:13

I'm in a good get Walmart for it, which is

8:15

showing that there is a tremendous

8:18

conflict between his public statements and his personal

8:20

conduct, or even maybe his personal beliefs, if he

8:22

has any beliefs at all. Yeah. And

8:24

look, we, you know, I know you wrote a message

8:26

box about this. and and noted

8:28

that when this first broke that Tommy

8:30

was saying, oh, it could be like an access Hollywood

8:33

tape moment. And we

8:35

all know what happened there. III was

8:37

thinking about that. Like, I do I

8:39

mean, I think that the the damage to

8:41

Trump after access the access

8:43

Hollywood tape was real. but

8:45

the problem was it was so early

8:47

where there was so much time

8:49

left after access Hollywood that then we

8:52

had Jim Comey, step in, and change the new

8:54

cycle. Yeah. I mean, well Yeah. I always I

8:56

always wonder if the election was, like, a week

8:58

after access Hollywood if it had it

9:00

would have on the same way. I don't think it would Yeah. Or if Jim Comey had

9:02

not intervened or if the Russians had not,

9:04

the very next day dumped out

9:06

all of the emails on

9:08

WikiLeaks. Like, all of those things happen

9:10

that are not necessarily at play here.

9:12

But the original point

9:14

that brought Tommy into this conversation

9:16

by his pointing

9:18

out that the time difference between the did they

9:20

gap between the revolution election is almost

9:22

exactly the same here as it was in two thousand sixteen.

9:24

So there were a lot of turns

9:26

of the wheel here. It like, there is an

9:28

important another important difference

9:30

is this is on the most

9:32

important issue in the race

9:34

for Democrats. Again, this is we

9:36

want what like, we you guys just had a discussion,

9:39

which we'll revisit shortly about

9:41

how the conversation has moved away

9:43

from abortion an issue that has been very

9:46

given Democrats' political momentum to issues like crime

9:48

and immigration that do it for Republicans. And

9:50

here, the scandal is on

9:52

that

9:52

issue. Right? It is it's

9:54

like Mitt Romney discovering

9:56

in twenty twelve that Mitt Romney had

9:59

evaded

9:59

taxes by using a Swiss bank account.

10:02

Oh, wait.

10:02

That happened. Sorry. Sorry. For

10:05

example, it's on the Who who

10:07

knew that Amit Romney hit was going to

10:09

find way into conversation about Hershel Walker. I

10:11

mean, it's and his abortion. It's all it's all

10:13

we're always one turn the wheel from that.

10:16

So believe it or not, things got even worse for Walker

10:18

right after the beast story came out.

10:21

His son Christian, who is a right

10:23

wing TikTok influencer, denounced

10:25

his father in a series of videos that went viral.

10:27

Here's a clip. Family values people.

10:29

He has four kids, four different

10:31

women, wasn't in the house raising

10:33

one of them. he was out having sex with

10:35

other women. Do you care about family

10:37

values? I would sign a

10:39

lie after lie after lie, the abortion card

10:41

dropped yesterday. It's literally his

10:43

handwriting in car. They say they have receipts, whatever. He

10:45

gets on Twitter. He lies about

10:47

it. Okay. I'm done. Done.

10:50

Everything has been a

10:52

lie. So

10:53

why

10:54

Walker's conservative son

10:57

tells us the abortion story is

10:59

true He also says in another video

11:01

that his father threatened to kill him and

11:03

his mother. Might that

11:05

make a difference? I guess,

11:07

I seen ads in this race with

11:10

testimony from his ex wife about Walker putting a

11:12

gun to her head. It was a Republican

11:14

accountability project ad that is truly one of the

11:16

most devastating political ads I've ever seen.

11:18

Yeah. I think this is a huge the

11:21

Christian Walker

11:22

videos is incredibly

11:23

significant. So I think the two questions

11:25

that probably passive consumers

11:27

of political news in Georgia have right

11:29

now are one, pressure Walker did

11:31

what? and two, what the

11:33

fuck is the daily beast? I mean,

11:36

it's just I mean, we

11:38

we know Republicans are very

11:40

good at taking new stories from

11:42

the mainstream media and discrediting them right away. Right?

11:44

That is the core trick of Trumpism.

11:46

And the Daily Beast, which has

11:48

done lots of great reporting her for the years, but it is not

11:50

something that has a lot of brand equity

11:52

with voters out

11:53

in the world. They don't know what it means. It's has

11:55

a very strange name that's gonna be very confusing. A

11:57

lot of people are hearing for first time. And

11:59

so

11:59

having Hersha Walker's own

12:02

son who also is a right

12:04

wing DeSantis lever

12:06

say his say the story is true and his dad

12:08

is a liar and should not be elected, it

12:10

will be very powerful with the exact set

12:12

of voters that are

12:15

sort of on the fence about

12:17

Walker, whether to vote for him, whether

12:19

to or to whether to vote at all.

12:22

I I have some insight into

12:24

how Hershel Walker stories have been

12:26

landing with voters in

12:28

Georgia when I was there in August. to conduct

12:30

the focus group that I did. Again,

12:32

this was with younger

12:34

black voters who described themselves as

12:36

moderate and who had not made up their mind. They all

12:38

Biden voters. they had not made up their mind on

12:40

whether to vote or who to vote for in some

12:42

cases. And we got to

12:44

the senate race. And it's funny

12:46

because they didn't know they didn't specific

12:48

stories about Walker. Like, they didn't

12:50

cite the ad about his ex wife

12:52

saying that he held a gun to her head or anything

12:54

very specific. It was just like, Oh,

12:56

I heard that he's crazy. Like,

12:59

I have been hearing so many crazy stories

13:01

about him and it seems like he we can't vote for

13:03

him. He's crazy. And I just

13:05

think there's a general feeling

13:08

that over the campaign, Hershel Walker

13:10

has not conducted himself

13:12

too too well and that he is lying. So

13:14

to the extent that this reinforces impressions

13:17

about Hershel Walker that are already out

13:19

there, even though even if those

13:21

impressions aren't fully formed, Right

13:23

now, from passive news consumers,

13:25

they do have a sense that

13:27

that he is has been lying about some stuff and

13:29

is a little bit crazy. and I'm sure

13:31

this will only reinforce that. And again,

13:33

we're not talking here about, like,

13:35

will base voters, base Republican

13:37

voters stay with Churchill Walker I imagine

13:39

that most of them will for all the reasons we

13:41

talked about earlier. This is about

13:44

the vast group of voters

13:46

who have not quite decided either

13:48

who they're gonna vote for or whether they're going to

13:50

vote in the midterm election who

13:52

don't follow the news that closely. So

13:54

Republican politicians, of course, have already

13:56

decided they don't care about any of this.

13:58

Not a single elected official has

14:00

retracted their endorsement Most of them

14:02

haven't even criticized Walker though. I guess

14:04

the the lieutenant governor of

14:06

Georgia was on

14:08

CNN last night and said that he's wondering he we

14:10

all knew that there was baggage, but we're wondering if

14:12

the baggage has been maybe a little too much now, which

14:14

I thought was an interesting semi

14:17

break. But, of course, most Republicans

14:19

are still on board with them. Former NRA

14:21

Griffin Daina Loach summed up the Mago World

14:23

Response when she said this the other

14:25

day. I

14:25

don't care if Hershel Walker

14:28

paid to abort endangered

14:30

baby eagles.

14:30

I want control of the senate. If

14:32

the Daily Bee story is

14:35

true, You're

14:36

telling me Walker used his

14:38

money to reportedly

14:40

pay some

14:42

skank for an abortion. and

14:44

warnock wants to use all of our

14:46

monies to pay a whole bunch of

14:48

skinks for abortions.

14:49

I want control

14:51

of a senate. I actually found the honesty there

14:53

refreshing and clarifying. What about you?

14:55

Yeah. I think I mean, other than the

14:57

overly vivid imagery about baby

14:59

birds, Yeah. Which It'd be

15:01

unnecessary. It'd be very, really unnecessary.

15:04

And misogynistic used the term

15:06

skank in this situation to refer to the woman

15:08

and not demand and not demand.

15:10

It's exactly how the Republicans feel where

15:12

political powers in in and of itself, and they

15:14

it is highly unlikely that they

15:17

lose this

15:18

race and take this out. It's

15:20

possible,

15:20

but it gets a lot harder if

15:22

this is the case. And so if they wanna be able

15:25

to stop Joe Biden from

15:27

ever pointing another judge or

15:29

passing another law or confirming

15:31

another cabinet member doing those things, they

15:33

have to win this race and they're they

15:35

don't care. They knew that they knew whether they knew the specifics

15:37

of this story, they knew. You keep

15:40

like, you and I have watched about, like, six interviews with

15:42

Hersha Walker, and we know he is deeply

15:44

unfit for this office, but

15:46

they did not give a shit because they thought he gave

15:48

them a great chance. And now he's their only chance. There's

15:50

not a world where they're taking him off the ballot ballots or

15:52

printed voting and starting. And

15:54

so, they're gonna ride this one all the way

15:56

in just like they did with Trump in twenty

15:58

sixteen. It's just another piece

15:59

of evidence also that they they

16:01

have no more issues anymore. There's

16:04

no issues animating the Republican

16:06

Party, but power. And I do think

16:08

that should be part of the

16:10

Democratic message about the party. Right?

16:12

Like, Republican politicians want power

16:14

so they can control your life and get

16:16

to play by different rules than you Right? Like,

16:18

that's that's it. They want power,

16:20

they get to do whatever they want, and then they get to

16:22

tell you to do

16:24

whatever they say. That's that's that's

16:26

basically where we're public on politicians are right now.

16:28

That's that's that's what they want. So here's

16:30

how Rafael Warnerk responded when asked about the

16:32

story. He said, I'll let the pundits

16:34

decide how they think it will impact the race, but

16:36

I've been consistent in my view

16:38

that a patient's room is too narrow and cramped

16:40

a space for a woman in the government.

16:42

What do you think about that response? And how do you think

16:44

Warrnock and Democrat should handle this story?

16:46

Like, can can they make it matter?

16:49

I think answer is fine. He's definitely

16:51

right not to take the

16:53

bait on how it affects the race. And I

16:55

assume he's answering question about whether he thinks

16:57

this is gonna affect the race and the person who

16:59

reported that should stop covering politics. Who asked the

17:01

question to stop covering politics because I don't know

17:03

why we use politicians to

17:06

a rare time to ask them questions to have them

17:08

make political predictions, which obviously no

17:10

one gets right. So what a

17:12

stupid use of time? So

17:14

congratulations, Rafael. We're not for not answering that

17:16

stupid question. I think

17:18

the the core of the answer is right,

17:20

which is what at least

17:22

the fur it is the first part of a two step here.

17:24

Right? The first part

17:26

is

17:26

well, there's actually there's a pretax in the

17:28

first one. The pretax is we

17:31

should not assume people are going to know

17:33

about this. Right? The voters you talk to

17:35

are barely surfing

17:37

the news. And so if you want people

17:39

to know it, someone's gonna have to pay to tell

17:41

them. But you're gonna have to put it on television,

17:43

you have to put it on digital. And so this isn't

17:45

necessarily the worn out campaign, but some

17:47

Democratic group should probably take some of those Christian

17:49

Walker videos, slap his name in

17:51

relation to his father on the bottom of the page and just

17:53

run them. Right? Like, no spin

17:55

on the here's what Hersha

17:57

Walker's son says about him.

17:59

Right? Maybe he throws

17:59

some

17:59

headlines in there, but that's it. So that's

18:02

one. Two, the

18:04

most politically important

18:06

part of this is that it it ensures

18:08

that abortion is gonna be a a top

18:10

issue in this election. Both his

18:13

personal conduct and his public position. And I think

18:15

that what Walker's answer there

18:17

is exactly that. Maybe be a little

18:19

more explicit. than he wants to just just

18:21

say every time anyone asks you a

18:23

question that whatever horse you're walking into

18:25

his personal life, what he here's what he wants to do

18:27

to your personal life. A bandwidth notes.

18:29

do that. And then the third part is, I think it's the

18:31

one you just went to, which is using this to

18:33

make a case about Walker

18:35

being another example of

18:38

wealthy elites who think there's one set of rules for them

18:40

and one set of rules for you.

18:42

And he can get an abortion because

18:44

he's a rich guy. You can't.

18:46

Right? He's a rich politically

18:48

connected insider, you are not therefore, you

18:50

have a different set of rules. I think those are the

18:52

elements of the of what the response looks

18:55

Wornock definitely nails. The first part, I imagine the second part is

18:57

coming when they have a debate in the

18:59

very, very near future, I think.

19:01

Yeah. Politicians playing by a different

19:03

set of rules a very powerful political

19:06

argument. And also, like you said, I

19:08

think everything is about

19:10

reminding people of the consequences

19:12

of what will happen

19:14

if Hershel Walker is elected or any

19:16

Republican is elected. People care

19:18

less about process, people care less about what

19:20

politicians do in their own private lives. They care about what is

19:22

the consequences for me. And

19:24

the consequences for people of a

19:27

Hershel Walker in the senate

19:29

is that there could be a national abortion

19:32

ban and that also this man believes in

19:34

abortion with no exceptions except

19:36

for himself. So, as you

19:38

mentioned, we talked about the rest of the Senate map on

19:40

Tuesday's pod. Wanted to get your take on where

19:42

things stand. Why do you think Republican

19:44

candidates seem to be pulling better

19:46

over these last few weeks? Well, as I

19:48

do, every Tuesday morning between

19:51

five and five thirty, I listen to

19:53

the Tuesday pod on two x speed,

19:55

wide drink coffee, and two x speed.

19:57

Yeah. Not even one and a half. Yeah. So in

19:59

the words that I understood,

20:02

and subopt in one

20:04

environment. I agreed with Have you even hear love

20:06

it at that point? I mean, you're the fast

20:08

talker of the three. I'm gonna talk Can I talk

20:10

faster than you? So no one's ever listening to this

20:12

funny too. No one listening to us. No. That

20:14

makes sense. Yeah. That'd be better. And I and I

20:16

grew with all the points you guys made

20:18

about inflation, gas prices,

20:22

issue sales, all of that. But I would add

20:24

two other points

20:26

to that. One is and

20:28

I think

20:29

the is we

20:30

have not paid enough attention to, which is

20:32

Democrats spent Republicans in these

20:34

senate races by pretty massive amounts

20:37

from Memorial Day to

20:39

Labor Day. But from Labor Day to

20:41

now, Republicans have been pretty massively

20:43

outspending. Democrats. And that's in part because

20:45

Democratic candidates raise more

20:48

money directly into their campaigns

20:50

through large grassroots fundraising

20:52

basis than ever Republican other than Trump.

20:54

So, like, Mark Kelly is raking money in five and

20:56

ten dollars at a time, Blake Masters is

20:58

just scrimping by. Right? Same thing with Warrnock and

21:01

Walker, Mandela Barnes and, Ron Johnson,

21:03

all of that. But in the fall,

21:05

all the Republican outside money

21:07

comes in and it comes

21:08

in big. and

21:10

that's where their advantage is. And so they are and they and

21:12

they do have a strategic belief that

21:14

that Democrats are wasting their

21:17

money over summer. I don't think that's necessarily

21:19

right, but that's why all the Republican money has

21:21

come in now and they have

21:23

focused on crime. It's been crime ads

21:25

everywhere and democrats have

21:27

suffered from that. But the other

21:29

point that I think is worth noting, and I think that's

21:31

why we sort of over read these things is

21:33

all of these races and all of

21:36

these state these center races in all of these

21:38

states are always going to be

21:40

incredibly close. Yeah. I mean, these are

21:42

states that Joe Biden beat Donald Trump

21:44

in most cases by less than one half

21:46

of one percent. Yeah.

21:48

in a better political environment than this one. So what we're seeing

21:50

also is a reversion to

21:52

the inevitable mean. Doctor

21:55

Oz was

21:55

never going to get

21:58

thirty eight percent of the vote. He's gonna get

22:00

somewhere

22:00

between forty six and forty eight no

22:02

matter what happens. Same thing with

22:04

Hersha Walker and it like, these are these are fifty

22:06

one forty nine races. in every case

22:08

or forty nine, forty eight in some cases. And

22:11

so we're right back to where we were,

22:13

which is a coin flip. And that

22:15

was gonna happen. Republican voters were gonna

22:17

come home in all these

22:19

cases. And in some cases, like,

22:21

the you look at Arizona,

22:23

the gap has narrowed a lot, but Kelly has stated

22:25

above fifty. And Blake Masters has come up

22:27

to, like, forty seven, forty eight. And

22:30

that's, you know, that may be his ceiling.

22:32

It's gonna be different in other states. And so

22:34

this is sort of Like, if if we ever thought this

22:36

was gonna be easy, we diluted ourselves over some

22:38

of these. We're always gonna be incredibly,

22:41

incredibly close, and that's where they are, and that's where they're gonna stay till

22:43

the very, very end. Yeah. And look, and

22:45

you mentioned twenty twenty, it's

22:47

basically been like this since twenty

22:49

sixteen. The shifts between in the most

22:51

competitive states and districts between

22:53

twenty sixteen, twenty eighteen, and twenty twenty have

22:55

not been large, even, you know, depending even

22:57

that the winter has changed. And so

22:59

I think that's that's worth keeping in mind. I

23:01

kind of always have been looking at the

23:04

Democratic candidate number in these

23:06

polls like you just said. If it's if it's like

23:08

forty eight, forty nine, fifty, fifty

23:10

one, I'm feeling like that's pretty good.

23:12

But especially

23:14

in a year where Republicans

23:16

are the party out of power,

23:18

which tend to give you a little boost,

23:20

III worry that undecided end

23:22

up breaking heavily toward the

23:24

Republican candidates. So some of these Republican candidates

23:26

were down at forty two, forty three,

23:28

forty four, like you said, are gonna end up

23:31

at forty eight, forty nine even if they

23:33

lose. And so if a

23:35

Democratic candidate is pulling if you're

23:37

fifty one, you're feeling pretty good. If they're pulling

23:39

it like forty six, forty

23:41

five, and there's still three or four

23:43

points ahead of the Republican candidate, I'm

23:45

still not feeling that No. You should feel really badly that

23:47

case. Unless there is a significant third party

23:49

candidate that brings your win number down to closer to

23:51

four seven, which is not a thing that's happening in any

23:53

of these major races other than

23:55

the Oregon governor, we

23:58

should be deeply

23:59

concerned. And I'm

23:59

very worried about Nevada where you that's the number

24:02

you constantly see Catharine Cortez

24:04

Masstovat is like forty six. Yeah. And the only

24:05

two things there, like, in Nevada, you

24:08

can also choose it's one of the

24:10

few states where you can choose no candidate for

24:12

some races. that could bring the number down. And then

24:14

in Georgia, of course, there's a third

24:16

party candidate, and then there's a potential

24:18

of a runoff if no one hits

24:20

fifty percent. So we could all be talking

24:22

about the George a runoff again. Yeah. We have we

24:24

have we have we have we have we really

24:26

done it. That might end up being by far the

24:28

likely scenario given the presence of that

24:30

third party candidate for someone to get over fifty be

24:32

pretty hard. Yeah. So everyone

24:34

get ready for that. Yeah. Let's let's rerun the whole

24:36

thing in the holiday season during a potential COVID

24:38

spike. That seems great. Fuck.

24:40

One thing that seems to be happening at least

24:42

in the Pennsylvania race is that John Federman's

24:45

unfavorables have gone up. Media

24:47

matters has one possible explanation for

24:49

this. They did a study that found in the four weeks

24:51

following Labor Day. Fox's

24:54

weekday primetime broadcast mentioned the

24:56

Democratic nominees in

24:58

seven competitive senate races more

25:00

than twice as many times

25:02

as CNN and MSNBC's broadcast

25:04

did combined. This

25:06

has been especially true of Federman. He's now

25:08

a star of Fox News primetime.

25:10

How much of an impact do you think this could

25:12

be having on these races? think it's

25:14

a pretty significant impact. And particularly just as we were

25:17

talking, the Republican gains

25:19

primarily over the last few weeks or

25:21

months here had been among Republicans

25:23

coming home. People who

25:25

live either directly in or

25:27

adjacent to the right wing media

25:29

ecosystem. And I think that this whole thing, it's

25:31

fascinating for a whole host of reasons

25:33

because One, it goes

25:35

to the larger point that

25:37

Fox is an arm of the Republican

25:39

party. Right? They they need they think they

25:41

need to do this. They have watched what's happening. We

25:43

have made the Democrat's success. We made this

25:45

race about doctor Oz' weird

25:48

elitism. Blake Masters

25:50

is creepy conservatism,

25:53

Ron Johnson's dopey

25:56

Insurrectionism. Right? And they Yeah.

25:58

They they sort of

25:59

agree. You know, sort of

26:01

it's there's a thing we, you know, it sounds like it's before is

26:03

that in this meeting environment, you're either serving lunch

26:05

or you're on the menu, and so they wanna is

26:07

around naked about Democrats. And they they know they can get people fired

26:09

up about Federman because he

26:12

of his tattoos, his support

26:14

for legalizing marijuana. They can sort

26:16

they can he is a character he's

26:18

someone who you can radicalize republican voters

26:21

around, so they are doing that because they think that's in the

26:23

Republican Party's interest. NSNBC and

26:25

CNN are not armed to the Democratic

26:27

Party. They don't make their decisions based on what helps

26:29

Democrats win elections. And the thing that I

26:31

think is an interesting longer sociological

26:34

understanding of that is Fox also does things that are in its ratings

26:36

interests. And they would if they were not getting

26:38

ratings for this, they would not do it. But it

26:40

I would just know that conservative

26:44

media consumers

26:46

are eating up these senate races. And if

26:48

I promise you, Emma's gonna be seeing it and

26:50

seeing that and would you know,

26:52

they probably remove their pinky finger

26:55

for ratings. And so if they got ratings, they would

26:57

cover these races, but they don't get ratings, so

26:59

they recognize. which makes you wonder

27:01

why, like, sort of it's maybe beseech

27:03

the larger problem of democrats struggle at

27:05

midterms when Trump's not

27:07

on the ballot is because we

27:09

we're probably I bet when they cover Trump

27:11

moralago

27:11

investigations, ratings go up, when they

27:13

cover John Federman, and Mark Kelly ratings go

27:16

down. So they do the former, not

27:18

the latter. or even when

27:19

they cover doctor Oz and

27:21

Hershel Walker. Right? Like, I think there's just more

27:23

of an interest on the on the Republican side.

27:26

I would guess

27:27

that

27:28

the free media that

27:30

Republican candidates are getting from Fox

27:32

News attacking these Democratic candidates may be

27:34

even more value valuable than all

27:36

of that outside spending you referenced earlier

27:39

on political ads,

27:41

which I think, you know, some

27:43

voters, they're just sort of

27:45

numb to some of these ads, but

27:47

they're watching their news all the time, and

27:49

they're seeing another story about John Federman or

27:51

another story about Mandela Barnes or another story

27:53

about Rafael Warner. and, you know,

27:56

they're that's that's registering in a way.

27:58

It's and it's they're altering the context in

27:59

which these campaign ads are

28:03

being consumed. Right.

28:04

By by sort of creating

28:06

an alternate image of

28:09

Federman, but also just raising they

28:11

if you even like, this is not in this study, but there

28:13

this is to show up in other studies, is that

28:16

they're

28:16

a crime as a

28:18

topic on Fox is not also going up dramatically in

28:21

recent

28:21

months is to create a contact

28:23

for these crime ads against

28:26

Democrats Right? The crime ads hit all working together.

28:28

Yeah. It's all working together. It's all part of a

28:30

plan. And Republicans have both parts of the

28:32

plan, and we have neither. So

28:34

congratulations, Democrats. Well, any

28:36

thoughts on we'll end on a on a

28:38

hopeful note. Any thoughts on how Democrats

28:40

can regain the momentum in these final

28:42

weeks? We need to send a

28:44

daily beast reporter into every no. No. No. No.

28:47

Alright. Look, I think what

28:49

Democrats have to do is

28:51

pivot and punch back. And

28:53

I've been watching the Federman race as we

28:55

all have very closely. And the

28:57

way they have leapt at this

28:59

Washington Post story about

29:01

doctor

29:02

Oz is

29:04

his gifting, pseudoscience,

29:07

hell, you know, puppy murder. Don't

29:09

forget the puppy Yeah. Well, I was gonna get to I

29:11

was gonna get to the puppy murder, but I know how uncomfort like,

29:13

uncomfortable that conversation was at two

29:15

x speed on Tuesday mornings, but

29:18

what like, even at two x speed,

29:20

you're, like, the utter emotionally

29:22

fragile disgust of what is,

29:24

like, palpable. But

29:26

but, you know, that is they have is you

29:28

have to find an issue, latch on it, and punch back

29:30

as hard as you possibly can. And

29:32

Federman has done that well. I Mandela Barnes making

29:34

a few moves on that way, but that's ultimately

29:36

what you have to do and just

29:39

to try to once again be on

29:41

the off regaining regain offense. And it's gonna be, I think, a little

29:43

different in each race. Obviously, we know what it's gonna

29:45

be in the Churchill Walker race.

29:47

Do we have puppies in pseudoscience in

29:50

Pennsylvania? And there are some real opportunities around

29:52

Social Security and Medicare in

29:54

Wisconsin that I that you see the Meddoll Barnes

29:56

campaign get aggressive about very recently. Yeah.

29:58

And I do think in the case of Pennsylvania,

30:00

it's not just that there's

30:02

a really bad Republican candidate, there's

30:04

a really good Democratic candidate,

30:07

like and and people I mean, I remember this from the the

30:09

groups I did in Pittsburgh, but, like, people just

30:11

love John Federman. They love that he's different. They

30:13

love that he doesn't typical politician

30:15

because he's not, doesn't look like one, doesn't

30:17

talk like one, that he's, like, willing

30:20

to, you know, say that things

30:22

like, I wanna legalize weed and

30:24

and and take on some of those parole board

30:26

stories head on. And I think

30:28

that it's been tough. I'm sure

30:30

because he is of

30:32

course, you know, still recovering

30:34

as he's mentioned. But,

30:36

like, getting him out there and reminding

30:38

people why they like John Federman so

30:40

much in first place because he's not like every other fucking

30:42

politician in Washington is gonna be important in these

30:44

final weeks too. When this is all said

30:46

and done, at

30:48

if Federman wins and

30:50

Kelly wins as we hope and expect you,

30:52

well, it's gonna be a really interesting case

30:54

study. And two, very different but very good

30:56

candidates. They could not be more different in

30:58

demeanor, but but like Kelly is Yeah. Of all the

31:00

states we've talked about that are the Biden states

31:02

that decide to control the senate, Arizona is probably the

31:04

toughest one. Right? And

31:06

Kelly has

31:06

been in the lead and has run a great

31:08

campaign from the very beginning. And, like, we

31:10

talk about John Fedelman on time, John Fedelman on the news,

31:12

John Fedelman on the Internet Fedelman on this podcast.

31:15

Yeah. Mark Kelly

31:16

just outdoing his business yet

31:19

somehow just a quiet just a quiet ex

31:21

astronaut. Yeah. And it's it

31:23

it, like, really works for them in a lot of ways. So they're, like, I guess,

31:25

a bit maybe the the more important which is is

31:27

they good candidates come in all different shapes

31:30

and sizes. That is very true. That is very

31:32

true. Okay. When we come back, we

31:34

will talk to Maggie Haberman of The New

31:36

York Times about her new book

31:38

ma'am. Pod

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you for having me. So

36:29

none of us have been able to escape Donald Trump for the

36:32

last six or seven years. For you, it's

36:34

been longer. An endless

36:36

number of words has been written

36:38

about him you wanted to focus a good part of this book on

36:40

his New York Origin

36:42

story. What did you want people to

36:44

understand about

36:46

Donald Trump that we don't

36:48

already know or that maybe we

36:50

get wrong. So a a couple of

36:52

things. And and you are correct that he is the

36:54

most written about man on the planet. think, at this point

36:56

or or one of them. I wanted to

36:58

tell a story about

36:59

the arc of his life,

37:01

about the world of dysfunction

37:03

that he came from where corruption touched on

37:06

various aspects of the media, of the real

37:08

estate industry that he came from of his

37:10

family business. of

37:12

machine boss politics and

37:14

of racial tribalism in New York,

37:16

and how all of

37:18

that was sported by him to Washington and foretold how

37:20

his presidency was going to go because

37:22

in addition to the world he

37:24

comes from, he has you

37:27

know, specific characteristics

37:29

about his personality where he has sort

37:31

of a handful of moves and it's

37:33

just figuring out which one is

37:35

operative at any given moment. He not strategic, and I do hope

37:38

that people who lead a lot of strategy into

37:40

what he does come away with

37:42

realizing that.

37:44

from reading the reporting in the book. But what he is is more calculating moment

37:46

to moment. And I hope they

37:48

get that too. I've

37:50

always thought

37:51

that an underrated part

37:53

of Trump's appeal, at least to

37:56

people like me who aren't fans,

37:58

is his ability to entertain

38:00

even as he warifies you write

38:02

about feeling queasy during the twenty sixteen campaign

38:05

when Trump read Lindsey Graham's phone

38:07

number allowed at a rally. but

38:09

then a colleague of yours later remembered it

38:11

is funny. And you write, it seemed as though

38:13

there was both a menacing psychological

38:16

thriller score and a sitcom

38:18

laugh track playing behind him at all

38:20

times. To what extent do you

38:22

think Trump's ability to

38:24

both repulse and entertain at

38:26

the same time? explains his

38:28

political success. I think a great

38:30

deal. I I would

38:31

put that in in one bucket. I think another

38:34

bucket that explains political successes that he

38:36

spent decades brick by

38:38

brick news story by news story, building

38:40

this artifact of himself as a, you

38:42

know, as

38:44

massively successful Tycoon commensurate with, you know, New York's

38:46

biggest names in finance, which was just not

38:48

who he was. But the view

38:50

of him outside of the Fiberos

38:52

of New York was much more that

38:54

that was the case. And I remember being

38:56

very struck by the cognitive dissonance

38:58

in that in twenty fifteen. A big part of

39:00

that was him playing himself on

39:02

the apprentice. you know, the

39:04

the the person who

39:06

we got to see over and over again

39:08

doesn't really like interpersonal conflict and doesn't

39:10

really like to fire people. himself

39:12

had the catchphrase your fire, and that's what he

39:14

was known for. And so people had

39:16

his view of who he was combined with

39:19

To your point, he both

39:22

intimidates and is about power and

39:24

dominance, but he also tries to

39:26

entertain and that has kept him where

39:28

he is. Yeah. I mean, a theme of the book is that Trump

39:30

mostly has no core beliefs and will say whatever he

39:32

needs to get ahead. But you do write about

39:34

how one of his few consistent

39:36

beliefs is

39:38

that hate should be a civic good. Can you talk about

39:40

that? Explain that a little. Sure. So

39:42

I wrote that in the

39:45

context of the ad that he took out. He

39:48

took out a full page newspaper

39:50

ad in nineteen eighty

39:52

nine after the

39:54

notorious central park jogger

39:56

case where a white

39:58

Wall Street executive was jogging in

40:00

Central Park in the evening. She

40:03

was brutally raped and and beaten and

40:06

found several hours later.

40:08

And and teenagers were charged with

40:10

the crime, all teenagers of color.

40:13

their confessions were it

40:15

was later learned coerced by police. They

40:17

were all ultimately overturned. The convictions, but

40:19

Trump at the time took out

40:21

a full page newspaper ad about

40:24

these kits saying bring

40:26

back

40:26

the death penalty. I think and then I think the

40:28

second half was bring back our police. I just don't have it

40:30

in front of me. But he

40:32

talked

40:32

about, you know, glorifying

40:36

police brutality. He talked about

40:38

what I'm positive is not a

40:40

real story about his youth and watching police officers throw some, you know, rowdy

40:42

people out of a diner, and he

40:44

he missed those days. And

40:47

Ed Koch had told people and the

40:50

mayor of New York City had told

40:52

the populace, you know, to keep

40:54

hate and rancher out of

40:56

their hearts. toward these kids and and toward others in the wake of

40:58

what's happening? Because when there's an incident

41:00

like that in

41:00

a major metropolis or anywhere,

41:02

but but in a major metropolis,

41:05

it tends to cleave the city

41:08

into into two. Koch was

41:10

understandably as any leader would try to avoid

41:12

that, and Trump's response was I want

41:14

to hate them. you know, he people

41:16

to hate them. He wants society to hate them.

41:18

And so I said, this was as clear in

41:20

ethos that Trump appeared to have

41:22

guiding him, which was hate as a

41:24

bit good. And I think that is something we saw

41:26

him use in twenty fifteen. And in twenty sixteen, you know,

41:30

he a really

41:32

important moment in the campaign in twenty

41:34

fifth twenty fifteen, I would say,

41:36

was I think it was September

41:38

he had a rally in Arizona and he brought out

41:40

a so called angel mom, someone whose child had been killed

41:43

by an undocumented immigrant.

41:46

and that really set the tone for what we are going to see. And now,

41:49

these rallies that he does, you

41:51

know, it sounds like he's reading

41:53

a police water. sometimes. I mean,

41:55

he's just talking about this one getting killed or that one getting killed. And he has infused

41:57

our politics with it in a in a way that

41:59

has been,

42:01

you know, durable.

42:03

gerber Do you

42:05

see him as an authoritarian

42:06

even if he's a very American

42:08

version of an authoritarian? I

42:12

see him as a bossist. I'll answer that

42:14

slightly differently -- Mhmm. -- because I

42:16

think an authoritarian has a coherent

42:19

view of governance. and I think

42:22

an authoritarian doesn't mind having

42:24

responsibility. In addition to power, I think

42:26

Donald Trump is all about avoiding

42:28

responsibility he wants credit. and that's

42:30

something different. But I think he has

42:32

significant strong man impulses

42:34

and does not accept

42:36

systems and does not believe systems should apply

42:38

to him.

42:39

There is there's a pretty significant

42:42

tension between someone who wants to

42:44

avoid responsibility and

42:46

someone who seeking

42:48

the presidency, the position where

42:50

you're responsible for everything. Right? The

42:52

buck stops here, all of that. we're

42:54

all sort of operating based on reporting some of

42:57

yours, someone else that Trump is going to

42:59

run again in twenty twenty

43:02

four. You've reported, like, some pretty active planning that's been going

43:04

on about announcements. Is there

43:06

a scenario where

43:07

he doesn't run? And what would

43:09

that look like? or

43:11

is it foregone conclusion? I don't think anything with him

43:14

is ever a foregone conclusion, especially because, and

43:16

I write about this, he is so

43:18

expert at leaving all

43:20

options open until the last possible second.

43:22

And his heart really doesn't actually seem

43:24

in running right now. He

43:26

does not enjoying himself, you can see it when he's of these rallies.

43:28

It's just something is is is not

43:30

quite what it was. However, I

43:32

think he backed himself into a

43:34

corner, I think both in terms of his desire for

43:36

attention, his desire to fund raise, his

43:38

desire to

43:40

have a cOUGEL to use against the various investigations he's

43:42

facing, and the prospect of having the

43:44

constitutional protections that the White House

43:46

gives a president

43:48

against indictment or

43:50

against trial. I think all of those are

43:52

reasons why he's likely to run. Howard Bauchner:

43:53

I remember

43:54

when and you've you've written about this

43:56

and talked about it many times, but

43:58

when Trump first wanted to tell you personally that he was

44:00

gonna run for president, you didn't think he was ever

44:02

possibly gonna do it, in part

44:04

because he would never want

44:06

to be a loser. Right?

44:08

And to good to run and lose again

44:10

would be to put himself in

44:13

the absolute dust beneficiary. Right?

44:16

That is people have lost reelection and gone on whether it's Jimmy Carter's

44:18

birthday, it should be Bush going on to have, Chris.

44:20

But to lose reelection, run and lose

44:22

again would be to, like, paint

44:24

the ultimate scarlet

44:26

l on himself. And you you think it's a risk he's willing to

44:29

take? I I do because

44:31

I think that when you are willing to

44:33

say that you didn't really lose even

44:35

when you've lost.

44:36

Like I said, it's the I I

44:38

think your yeah. I think your calculus becomes a little

44:40

different. So but I don't think he wants it,

44:42

and I do think that's something he's cognizant of. I

44:44

just think that the in in his mind

44:47

at this point, the its work it the

44:49

the the desirable effects of it

44:51

outweigh, the negatives One of the things I've

44:53

been very interested about is related to Trump is

44:55

he is obviously not shy about sharing

44:57

his opinions and public

44:59

about anyone. Right? Republicans,

45:02

Democrats, reporters who cover him, you know,

45:04

he just basically wished death

45:06

upon miss McConnell last

45:08

week depending on how you read his

45:10

his most recent truth. But

45:12

he is incredibly quiet

45:14

about Ron DeSantis, who is this

45:17

person looming over his twenty

45:19

twenty four race, people who had supported

45:22

Trump before sort of

45:24

either openly advocating or quietly flirting

45:26

with the santas, Why is he

45:28

so quiet about this antigen? Do you have a

45:30

sense of how he really feels about

45:32

him? Oh, well,

45:32

he's not quiet privately, but yeah. He's

45:35

quiet he's quiet publicly. And he's not

45:37

on Twitter anymore. You know, I think I think even Trump is aware that truth

45:39

social doesn't quite get him the the sugar

45:41

higher followers. The Twitter did. He

45:43

said he's maybe three million or is

45:45

he He could be he could be back any minute now, like You're

45:47

welcome. So that that may happen, and he may be back with

45:50

Facebook too at some point pretty

45:52

soon. There

45:54

are moments where he can actually show some discipline.

45:56

They're usually not one lasting, and they're always

45:58

when it's to his own advantage, it's not about

46:00

someone else.

46:02

There are a number of people around Trump who just don't see a

46:04

benefit in getting into a big fight with DeSantis

46:06

because it just elevates DeSantis, number one.

46:08

And number two, the flip side is

46:11

if DeSantis were to be

46:13

hurt in his active reelection campaign

46:15

right now against Charlie Chris,

46:17

pointing to Trump as a fault would be

46:19

problematic for Trump. So that's why. And do

46:21

you you've also done a lot of reporting around Rhonda Santos and people support him.

46:23

Do you think he runs if Trump

46:25

runs? I'm so

46:29

with

46:29

the caveat that my predictions

46:31

are worth the paper they're written on

46:33

in the areas they're believed

46:36

into. III have

46:38

not been certain that DeSantis really

46:40

wants to go into the Trump meat

46:42

grinder, and that's just based on people

46:44

who I talk to. you know, as you guys

46:46

know, other than anybody, you get a moment in time. And

46:49

you either take the moment or you don't. And you can

46:51

make an argument, this is DeSantis' moment. If he waits,

46:53

it's not clear what it ends

46:55

up looking like. But everybody thinks it's gonna, you know,

46:57

they're gonna be the ones who can really take

46:59

Trump on. And

47:02

and it's incredibly

47:04

difficult when he is, you

47:06

know, saying all kinds of

47:08

vicious things about you. to

47:11

keep going in the of it who accept normal

47:14

parameters

47:14

aren't used to dealing with

47:16

that.

47:16

used to dealing with that And even to Santos who

47:18

does a fair amount of insulting, you

47:21

know, it

47:22

it's not like Trump. I I will say

47:26

We

47:26

don't know what DeSantis is gonna look like on the national stage yet. There have been

47:28

a couple of a couple of vaguely

47:31

Scott Walker vibe, you

47:33

know, twenty fifteen moments with

47:35

DeSantis recently. So

47:36

I'm just not convinced as

47:39

a foregone conclusion. Howard Bauchner: One

47:40

thing I've always been curious

47:43

about in reporting on Trump and Trump

47:45

world is, you know, this you've document this. And the book

47:47

Trump is obviously a sort of a

47:49

historically prodigious liar

47:52

he is surrounded by people who also lie

47:54

and sort of there's been this, you know,

47:56

the if you're unwilling to lie

47:59

for Trump. You're not really close to Trump.

48:01

When you're talking, you know, reporting

48:03

about things Trump may do, may believe,

48:05

may say, how do you sort of

48:07

sort out what

48:08

is

48:09

factual and true when you

48:11

have, you know, sort of an unprecedented

48:13

amount of dishonesty in all the

48:16

concentric circles around, you know, sort of

48:18

a historic this person? It's a great question and it's a question we've all, you know, wrestled

48:20

with since twenty fifteen.

48:22

You know, the the normal

48:26

rules of multiple sources, you amplify

48:28

it because, you know,

48:30

everybody around him

48:31

doesn't lie. a lot

48:33

of people around him lie and a lot of people are willing to do

48:35

it because he encourages it or and

48:38

because they think they'll get extra benefit of the

48:40

doubt because they're not him. I mean, there are a

48:42

number of people who take

48:44

advantage of the fact that a lot of what he

48:46

says is not true

48:48

to say what they want even if it's not

48:50

true. It's just it's a huge challenge.

48:52

I mean, getting a baseline of truth

48:54

with him is a huge

48:56

challenge. And in the process

48:58

of the news report day to

49:00

day in the process of this book. We do the

49:02

best we can to get the best attainable version

49:04

of the truth, but it's

49:07

a challenge. Alright. Let's

49:08

talk about your Twitter mentions, which unlike

49:10

your book, I would not recommend. Well,

49:15

I see. So I see. Thanks, John. I

49:17

would look, I wouldn't recommend mine either. I wouldn't recommend

49:20

anyone for personally. So

49:22

I see,

49:24

like, two main critiques of your work. One is

49:26

that and this is the more recent

49:28

one that you somehow held back

49:32

urgently important porting for the

49:34

book that I guess would have sent Donald Trump

49:36

to jail already. And

49:38

two is that all the

49:40

access you've had Donald Trump over the years hasn't

49:42

resulted in urgently important reporting. And sometimes,

49:45

both of those seemingly contradictory

49:47

critiques come from the same

49:50

people. I'm like, is

49:52

she holding scoops back? Or does she

49:54

not have important scoops? You can't

49:56

have both But, like, what is what is your response to serve those

49:58

two broad criticisms that

50:00

you have no doubt heard over

50:02

the last several

50:04

years. Howard Bauchner: So as you

50:05

know, those two things are in conflict.

50:07

I I had

50:11

this figure has been cited to me, which is why I know it. I

50:13

had I had close to six hundred by lines in

50:15

twenty sixteen. The vast

50:18

majority were about Donald Trump.

50:20

I had well over a thousand during the

50:22

presidency. You know, I was I was

50:24

I was I was part of a lot of

50:26

rigorous

50:26

reporting on him.

50:30

you

50:30

know, my general view on it is our report and people

50:32

can react, how they're gonna react. And,

50:34

you know, the the goal of

50:37

it is not to get a

50:39

reaction. When I have confirmable, reportable information, my goal is to

50:41

get it out as quick as possible.

50:43

And and and that has always been

50:45

my guiding ethos. I

50:48

also I think people misunderstand too. Like, you didn't have

50:51

the reporting that he

50:53

had taken classified

50:56

information with him from the White House. People, like, assumed that

50:58

he sort of he just sort of

51:00

lied to you during that interview. No. But yeah. No.

51:02

He said

51:03

in fact, he said opposite. That

51:05

that he said he didn't take anything, greater than to say. And

51:07

I and I asked the question on aark

51:09

because he was so proud of those

51:11

Kim Jong un letters.

51:13

He would wave them around the people in the Oval Office.

51:16

And his immediate reaction when I asked if you'd did

51:18

you take any momento documents with my

51:20

question? And he he said nothing at great

51:22

urgency now. And then he sort

51:24

of said something mushy

51:26

about the KJU letters, and I

51:28

thought he was saying he had them and I

51:30

kind of reacted And then he said, no, no,

51:32

those are in the archives and and took it

51:34

back. So, no, he

51:36

didn't. He didn't inform me of that. I mean,

51:38

listen, if if I

51:40

heard that that someone that Donald

51:42

Trump literally said, I have I have

51:44

classified material here, and it didn't

51:46

get reported, I'd be really outraged too, but that is

51:48

not that is not what happened. And the

51:50

toilet stuff was reported you your

51:52

toilet reporting, that was

51:54

back in February. That was back in February.

51:56

Appreciate it. Appreciate it. I appreciate it. The

51:59

headline.

51:59

Yeah. I put that out in

52:02

February as as an issue around the

52:04

documents was

52:04

was coming up. Yeah. You know, and I

52:06

and I that was eight months before the book came

52:08

up. Not to be confused with

52:10

your Rudy Giuliani toilet

52:12

reporting, which is another another

52:14

anecdote in the book that I I really

52:16

recommend. That has a less

52:20

security implication around different different

52:22

areas. Frankly, that's that's one tip, but

52:24

I wish you had held back.

52:28

But you can't you can't please everyone. I'm

52:30

sorry. That's fair enough. Fair enough. John and

52:32

I are divided on that one.

52:34

My my last question

52:36

is, like, you must be so tired.

52:38

Tired of Today, you're in general. That's

52:40

what I'm saying. I guess, all of it.

52:43

tired of Donald Trump or all tired of

52:45

Donald Trump. Like, how do you how do

52:47

you keep going? Will you keep going

52:49

if he runs again? and covering

52:51

the speed. It must be exhausting for

52:53

a million different reasons. Like, what what

52:56

keeps you into it? So I would just

52:58

I would just make the point. There's a lot of people who

53:00

are not not tired of Donald Trump. And and that's part of why he sustains

53:02

in in critical life. Number

53:04

one, but number of any remains a

53:06

huge force. I don't know

53:08

what the next couple of years will

53:10

look like assuming he runs. I think

53:12

these investigations into him, which I've

53:14

been in pretty involved with with

53:16

reporting on or

53:16

are going to continue, and that will

53:19

remain

53:19

a focus. But who knows? All we

53:21

have is today.

53:22

That's true. That's true. Maggie Habermann,

53:24

thank you for joining Pod Save America. The book is

53:26

Confidence Man. look at someone who has thought

53:29

way too often about how to defeat

53:31

Donald Trump over the last several years, I

53:33

think this book is fascinating and important in giving

53:35

you a window into his

53:38

psyche, which is always a a

53:40

dangerous thing for those of us who don't know him

53:42

to try

53:44

to guess but you know better than most since you have,

53:46

again, unfortunately, had to spend so much

53:48

time with him. So thank you for doing that, and thank

53:50

you for for joining Pod

53:52

Save America. Thanks

53:53

for having me.

53:54

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58:10

Before we

58:12

go, Our chief back.

58:15

He's married.

58:17

Congrats. Thanks, John. I

58:20

am married. Siding weekend. He's married and he's

58:22

got some piping hot takes. He's he's just

58:24

for us. And he's not married to takes.

58:27

He's married to over. I mean, he is married to

58:29

takes also, but that's Yes. I don't wanna

58:31

take that over. We had to divorce the takes to,

58:33

you know, never divorce the takes. Trust me. If I

58:36

legally could, I would. But I checked some of the state of

58:38

North Carolina.

58:42

Alright. What do you got for

58:44

us, Elijah? Guys,

58:44

I have a really exciting array of takes for both of you to

58:46

sample today, so I hope you brought

58:49

your appetites. Cool.

58:52

I'm

58:52

hungry. I'm hungry. Good.

58:54

Let's eat. I'm gonna explain how

58:58

it works. I'm gonna

59:00

share

59:00

these takes with you all. The producers

59:02

have seen them. You guys have

59:04

not. John and Dan, they

59:06

will react these takes and rate them on

59:09

scale of one to four politicals with four being

59:11

the worst. John and Dan, are

59:13

you ready?

59:13

So ready. Never

59:14

been more ready.

59:16

Alright. Let's get started. This first

59:18

one is from the Washington Post. Shout out the front of the pod

59:20

David for sending it to me. This piece

59:23

is so

59:23

good, you guys. This

59:26

piece is

59:28

to stop inflation, we

59:30

need

59:30

to secure the border. Alright.

59:34

Here's a quote from it. There's so many possible experts,

59:36

but this one kind of sums up the

59:38

argument of the piece and it's such a

59:41

great excerpt. So

59:43

the quote quote Biden's

59:44

failure to secure the border is ironically helping to

59:46

fuel the inflation that is

59:49

undermining his presidency We need

59:51

foreign workers to help the supply side of the

59:54

economy meet rising demand,

59:56

but we cannot pass legislation to

59:58

bring in these workers until the border

1:00:00

is secure So the

1:00:02

inflation crisis and the border crisis

1:00:04

spin out of control together.

1:00:08

Who

1:00:08

wrote it? That is some

1:00:10

fucking galaxy brain

1:00:12

shit right there. That because

1:00:16

the economics they they do

1:00:18

admit that the economics suggest

1:00:20

that we need more workers

1:00:22

in this country, but we

1:00:24

can't bring those workers in because

1:00:26

we have to kick them out first.

1:00:28

I

1:00:30

don't know. I don't know. Who

1:00:31

is that? Can you give

1:00:32

this is this a person we've heard of before?

1:00:36

Yes. Definitely. Is this person a regular

1:00:38

columnist at The Washington Post?

1:00:41

They

1:00:42

are Dan.

1:00:45

It's a smart tizen. It's a smart

1:00:48

tizen.

1:00:49

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, John, to

1:00:51

be fair to to Mark Mason, he says, we can't

1:00:53

just let anybody into the country.

1:00:54

We have to let the right

1:00:58

people into country, but we can't let the right people into the country we

1:01:00

stop letting everyone into the country, which

1:01:03

obviously, I mean, Do

1:01:05

you think I recognize that you're in charge of

1:01:07

social, Elijah, so you probably won't do this, but I was hoping

1:01:09

someone could clip of serving it to be fair to Mark

1:01:12

Tiesen and put it out there. Yeah. I'll put

1:01:14

it on a graphic. Just earning

1:01:16

myself. Yeah. To be

1:01:18

fair Or even if you just wanna send it to Tommy and

1:01:20

suit his reaction is, that'd be great. Yeah.

1:01:23

and roads. I did actually text us to Tom and he texted

1:01:25

me back in all caps. Of course, it's fucking

1:01:28

Martin.

1:01:29

Yes. So

1:01:32

here's my thing on this. It's a very I'm

1:01:35

gonna

1:01:35

take points away from him because it's

1:01:37

like a it's a very like lazy

1:01:39

bush era, which of course

1:01:41

because he's a Bush era speech writer. A

1:01:43

Bush era take about immigration. Like,

1:01:46

we can't give a pathway to citizenship

1:01:48

unless we secure the border. Like,

1:01:50

it's it's sort of a few

1:01:52

steps ago for the Republican

1:01:54

Party on immigration. It's it's not where they are

1:01:56

now. So I'm gonna I'm gonna give

1:01:58

it two. to. Yeah. I'm gonna give you an of

1:01:59

take would be. Mhmm.

1:02:02

Inflation

1:02:02

right now is George w

1:02:06

Bush's fault. Because had

1:02:06

he not invaded Iraq in two thousand and three,

1:02:08

he would have had the political capital

1:02:10

to pass the McCain Kennedy

1:02:12

immigration reform bill in two

1:02:15

thousand five. And therefore, the border

1:02:18

would be secured. We would have passed comprehensive

1:02:20

immigration reform and there would be

1:02:22

no inflation. ultimately it's a short

1:02:24

jump you just want.

1:02:26

That gets that's pretty good. That's a

1:02:28

take. That is a take.

1:02:30

Maybe we could add to this game and it's it's

1:02:32

alternate take from a dude? Yes. I

1:02:34

guess that's the podcast.

1:02:36

That's right.

1:02:38

Wait. Was there a political writing in there,

1:02:40

Dan? I'm

1:02:42

gonna give you just two. Okay. Two politicals. Once

1:02:44

again,

1:02:44

I will say I feel

1:02:46

dramatically constrained

1:02:48

by the limit of four politicals.

1:02:51

which is just like the problem that

1:02:54

the Washington Post fact checker Glendtusser has

1:02:56

with this four

1:02:58

pinocchio's because the big lie

1:03:00

that sparked the murderous rampage on the

1:03:02

capital get the same number of pinocchio as

1:03:04

Barack Obama misstating some fact about

1:03:06

social security. Right? So

1:03:08

this is our I mean I need

1:03:10

basically, I need some more room to spread my wings. So

1:03:12

just take that back to your production meeting next time.

1:03:14

No,

1:03:14

please explore the space. I still haven't written as one to four political space go

1:03:17

over. Okay. I feel just

1:03:19

feel so inclined. And we'll see if you

1:03:21

if you feel that way about this next

1:03:24

one. Okay. So let's head over to the

1:03:26

Elon Musk Twitter story. It

1:03:28

does look like Elon Musk will

1:03:31

end up buying Twitter. and

1:03:33

many users are afraid that the sale means the

1:03:35

platform will be full of trolls and

1:03:38

Nazis. There's also discussion of

1:03:40

it, helping Republicans that brings us to

1:03:42

this take. It is a

1:03:44

tweet and a

1:03:45

quote. The relationship

1:03:46

between Twitter content moderation

1:03:48

and electoral outcomes is a little ambiguous

1:03:51

Letting Trump on Twitter is almost certainly good for

1:03:54

Democrats. Letting more Nazis

1:03:56

and bigots back on Twitter is also

1:03:58

probably good

1:03:59

for Democrats. Guys

1:04:01

who wrote it. Okay. But

1:04:03

Okay. We know yeah. We

1:04:05

both know it's Matagolias. I do

1:04:07

not know if he is

1:04:09

wrong. he, I think

1:04:12

I mean, he gets

1:04:14

to merits

1:04:16

for making a prediction with near absolute certainty

1:04:18

on something he knows very little about.

1:04:20

So, like, that

1:04:23

is, like, we don't really

1:04:25

know that. Is it likely that Donald Trump just reminding everyone of what a

1:04:27

fucking lunatic he is? Good

1:04:30

for Democratic prospects where

1:04:32

we want Trump to be at the center of the new story?

1:04:34

Yes. Is it true that

1:04:36

a bunch of bigots in white supremacists

1:04:39

coming back on the platform to abuse everyone is good

1:04:41

for Democrats? No. I'm skeptical of

1:04:43

that. Yeah. I mean, clear clearly, it was

1:04:45

it was trollish in the sense that

1:04:48

it's like, obviously, it should go unsaid that it's not

1:04:50

good for democracy or the

1:04:52

country to have to

1:04:54

have that happen. But in the

1:04:56

narrow question,

1:04:58

of whether more Trump tweets helps

1:05:01

Democratic electoral fortunes. That is

1:05:03

something that we have argued on

1:05:05

this very podcast. Yes. It was offered

1:05:08

in a in a much more

1:05:10

nuanced data driven view in a message

1:05:12

box about a year ago for those who want to check.

1:05:14

Right. Which which is why we talk on the podcast and write in message

1:05:16

box and don't write the tweets. Some some

1:05:18

of those are gonna write the tweets. The tweets

1:05:21

to the the tweets get in trouble.

1:05:24

Yeah. Sometimes sometimes we should need more than two hundred and eighty

1:05:26

characters to explore a

1:05:28

complicated issue. Right. Right.

1:05:30

No. I remember it from the Boston show. We did talk

1:05:32

about this, but I guess, like, the Nazis and bigots parts

1:05:34

of it does really That's the problem. because

1:05:36

it's like, really, then what's the connection directly? They're not running? Yeah.

1:05:38

Right. Well, they they are running, but

1:05:40

those nazis and bigots are already on Twitter. Like

1:05:42

Mark Finch, him is on Twitter, I

1:05:46

think so. Right. Yeah. I don't I don't know that that necessarily that

1:05:48

part of the argument is is

1:05:50

helpful or right or anything. But the the first

1:05:52

part about Trump and

1:05:54

democrats is you know, I'm more I'm

1:05:56

more inclined to believe that. So I'm gonna give this I'm gonna give this

1:05:58

two again. I'm gonna

1:06:01

give it two. I'm like, Dan, I wanna spread my wings and

1:06:03

and and have a larger Well, Johnson, I'm actually gonna

1:06:05

come up with your own solution if the rule makers

1:06:07

weren't working these. I'm going with one point

1:06:10

three six Let it

1:06:11

go. Love it. There

1:06:14

we go. Exploring the

1:06:17

space.

1:06:17

Alright. So

1:06:19

though last one. I do have a bonus

1:06:21

one that's so far far outside the political realm.

1:06:23

Maybe we'll cut it, maybe we won't even get to it,

1:06:25

but this is the last official

1:06:28

one. Now

1:06:28

we're definitely we're definitely doing it. Now as you've said it, and it's

1:06:30

gonna have a podcast. So go for it.

1:06:32

Let's go fight the culture war.

1:06:35

there's a lot

1:06:35

of good culture war, you know, battles

1:06:38

happening right now. Like, Lizzo's plane, James

1:06:40

Madison's food, and Velma from Scooby Doo

1:06:42

is gay. But in the

1:06:44

spirit of take appreciators, we're gonna do

1:06:46

something that's a little more dressed up. You're

1:06:48

not gonna get the author, so I'm just gonna have

1:06:50

you guys guess the outlet. So the

1:06:52

post promoting this piece

1:06:54

read, New York libraries

1:06:56

have weighted into America's

1:06:58

culture wars by directly lending books to non residents in

1:07:00

spring, including thousands of

1:07:02

students living under red state

1:07:04

book bans. This

1:07:06

is a story about how Republicans have banned hundreds of books from schools

1:07:09

and libraries and how some libraries are letting those

1:07:11

books to people in those, you know, red

1:07:13

states. Here's a quote. Proponents

1:07:16

of the Bayans say that they're protecting

1:07:18

children. The tractors say

1:07:21

this policy chills discussions around institutional racism

1:07:23

and surprise LG BTQ children

1:07:26

resources to help them better understand

1:07:28

themselves. Guys,

1:07:30

the It's classic both

1:07:32

sides,

1:07:33

which outlet

1:07:36

road maps.

1:07:36

ah Political?

1:07:40

Correct.

1:07:41

Yes. It's a political political

1:07:43

in New York. But yes,

1:07:46

political. There you go. There

1:07:47

you go. Classic. classic proponents

1:07:50

say. Yes. I'm still get I'm gonna give

1:07:52

it one point

1:07:54

seven three. to

1:07:56

jow John to win a buck against the system.

1:07:58

And can I

1:07:59

bring Why it's

1:08:02

civil disobedience? So it was

1:08:04

a beating. It's my decimal point.

1:08:06

Damn, can I

1:08:06

bring you back to the to the

1:08:08

initial promotion of New York library's

1:08:11

waiting into the culture war by

1:08:13

lending books. Yeah. I'm like, I'm gonna You know what?

1:08:15

I didn't skip over that. I didn't I thought

1:08:17

about the I was focused on the quote. The

1:08:19

headline is pretty waiting in

1:08:21

as funny. Yes. By winning by learning books across state

1:08:24

lines, I don't

1:08:26

know, three point two

1:08:28

one. We've we've lost

1:08:30

the thread, guys. Yeah. Yeah.

1:08:36

I mean, Maybe we're just maybe we're just

1:08:38

numb to bad takes Elijah. I don't know. I I'm I'm finding myself less outraged.

1:08:40

Maybe I I need to

1:08:42

I need to really get my

1:08:44

filtered on here. That's that's how they get

1:08:46

the lobster every time. You guys Are you focused on other aspects of the culture war from Weso playing? I

1:08:48

just read read it to

1:08:51

Weso and and the flu.

1:08:54

Yeah. I'm I'm outraged about the flu. Okay. I'm outraged

1:08:56

about the outrage about the flu just to be clear.

1:08:58

I'm outraged that I had to look up what that

1:09:00

was. Yeah. That was a that that took some

1:09:03

time out of my desk. Apologies. Alright. Well,

1:09:05

we'll go to this bonus one, which is

1:09:07

so outlandish. Oh, a bonus. It's so outlandish. It's

1:09:09

so ridiculous. It's so far

1:09:11

off the spec term that it

1:09:13

has to be talked about. It's not political. Like I said, we can cut

1:09:15

it if we need to. But it's a piece titled, and this

1:09:17

was going around

1:09:20

a lot. Here's why you

1:09:22

shouldn't high five a child. Oh. I heard I heard of.

1:09:25

The baseline really

1:09:28

starts with are

1:09:30

good. Someone's screaming in pain. There's so much to quote from it, but here's just one.

1:09:32

A high five is a

1:09:34

gesture of familiarity to be change

1:09:39

between equals. I have traded the palm slap

1:09:41

with adult friends. I will not

1:09:43

slap the upraised palm of a person

1:09:45

who is not my peer and a

1:09:47

peer is someone over the

1:09:49

age of twenty one, emancipated, employed, and paying their own way. Any thoughts

1:09:51

on this

1:09:54

piece you guys? You

1:09:56

did

1:09:56

it Elijah. That it's a full playbook. It's a

1:09:59

full playbook. It was it's the craziest

1:09:59

fucking piece. I

1:10:02

can't believe it was

1:10:04

published. I I read the whole

1:10:06

thing. I was like, what is happening here? You read the whole piece? Yeah. Well, everyone was talking about

1:10:08

it, and I I don't know. I need I

1:10:10

have yeah. I I did. After I finished

1:10:15

googling Lizzo flute controversy. I

1:10:17

mean, offline goes on fall

1:10:19

break for like three

1:10:21

weeks and you read

1:10:23

this entire piece, It's a quick piece. I mean,

1:10:25

I didn't like, this is like, I definitely knew about the Lizzo flip

1:10:27

thing. This I I heard nothing about. Can you

1:10:29

just give me, like, a little I'm gonna give

1:10:32

a full just

1:10:34

to be clear, but can you give me

1:10:36

some context? What's the rationale about why

1:10:38

you can't high five and unemancipated non

1:10:41

self sufficient nineteen year old? Like, what what is the argument? It's a lack

1:10:43

of respect. It teaches the

1:10:46

child not to respect an

1:10:48

adult and

1:10:51

it's a problem in America generally. But

1:10:54

do you think it's

1:10:56

a problem that in

1:10:58

recent weeks, my one year old

1:11:01

son fist bump the former president of the

1:11:03

United States? Like, is that is that a full year parenting? I think as as a person

1:11:05

who reads a lot

1:11:07

of Republican takes, I'm,

1:11:10

like, getting excited. Just think about what that says about the former president of the United States that he

1:11:12

allowed that. I mean, I

1:11:14

mean, to be clear, Jack initiated.

1:11:17

said fist bump, but and to be clear, the

1:11:20

former president's Barack Obama, not Donald Trump. So just It's just came to be and to

1:11:22

be clear because the former president in question was Barack Obama. It wasn't just a fist

1:11:24

bump it

1:11:27

was a terrorist fist Oh, just another old fifteen year

1:11:30

old joke for years of a certain

1:11:32

generation. Love

1:11:37

making those. Love making those. Which is funny because Cody Keating made

1:11:39

author of Grace in a familiar way,

1:11:41

he should all buy, made that

1:11:44

exact joke. on

1:11:46

text to me two days ago. Well, we don't we

1:11:49

only have a couple couple things we go to here. There's

1:11:51

not a lot in this. There's

1:11:53

not a lot in the arts and all those

1:11:55

days. Okay. Elijah Conan, thank you for your

1:11:57

takes as always. Congratulations on

1:11:59

your nuptials. Maggie

1:12:03

Haberman, Thank you for joining the pod today. Everyone have a great

1:12:05

weekend, and we will talk to you

1:12:07

next week. Bye everyone.

1:12:10

Pod Save America is a

1:12:13

crooked media production. The executive

1:12:15

producer is Michael Martinez.

1:12:17

Our senior producer is Andy Gardner

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Bernstein. Our producers are Olivia Martinez and Hayley Muse. It's and edited

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by Andrew Chadwick. Kyle Segment

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in Charlotte Land as sound engineer of the show. Thanks to Tanya Somminator, Sandy Girard, Cali

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Keefer, Schwartz, Andy Taft and

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Justin Kyle for production support.

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into our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Phoebe

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Bradford, Milo Kim, and Emilia Montou.

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Our episodes are uploaded as

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videos at youtube dot

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com slash crooked

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median.