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Second rated P G Thirteen.

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Barbie was the biggest movie of last

0:24

year. We saw The Means, We heard

0:26

the songs and it was twenty Twenty

0:28

three his highest grossing film. And

0:31

it recently racked up eight Oscar

0:33

nominations, including best picture. So today

0:35

we thought it would be the

0:37

perfect time to revisit our conversation

0:39

about Barbie. I'm Linda Home. And

0:41

I'm Stephen Thompson. Today in this

0:43

encore episode of and Prs Pop

0:45

Culture Happy Hour, we are revisiting

0:48

our conversation about Barbie. Joining us

0:50

today is our fellow cohost, Asia

0:52

Harris. Hey Asia. Hi Barbara Stephen,

0:54

Hi Baby Linda Barbie, Asia. And

0:57

also with us is film critic and

1:00

culture journalist. But.reading Chaudhry hate but artery.

1:02

Hi Barbie Hi Barbie Barbie.

1:07

So who? The idea for a live

1:09

action Barbie movie has been bouncing around

1:11

for more than a decade now, and

1:14

the dolls themselves have been part of

1:16

the pop cultural landscape since the late

1:18

nineteen fifties. So Barbie has been a

1:21

long time coming, but in many ways

1:23

it feels like a film that could

1:25

only exists today. It's an extremely self

1:27

aware vision of Barbie, complete with commentaries

1:30

on the patriarchy and the unreasonable expectations

1:32

placed on women in modern society. The

1:34

film features. Many Barbie's and many cans.

1:37

But the central conflict arises when the

1:39

most stereotypically blonde and perky Barbie played

1:41

by Margot Robbie finds herself facing an

1:43

existential crisis. She may live in her

1:46

dream house and Barbie land, but she

1:48

thinks about death. Her heels suddenly touch

1:50

the ground, she finds the first traces

1:52

of sell you and she even sheds

1:55

tears. She heads off in search of

1:57

are human owner taking a journey from

1:59

Barbie. The and to Los Angeles. She's

2:01

joined by one of many cans played

2:03

with great enthusiasm by Ryan Gosling. Five

2:06

wasn't severely injured, I was eating waffle

2:08

right now. Can fall be job with

2:10

you Any data? Oh my. I can

2:12

tell when Barbie and Can arrive in

2:14

the human world, they find a very

2:16

different society than the Barbie centric one

2:18

there used to. Barbie soon meets a

2:20

So Tween play by Ariana Greenblatt as

2:22

well as her Mom played by America

2:25

for Era. Barbie was directed by Credit

2:27

Gerwig, who also directed Lady Bird and

2:29

Little Women. And it was written by

2:31

Gerwig and her partner know about Back

2:33

Barbie is streaming on Max and available

2:35

to rent or buy on Cod Punditry

2:37

d Tawdry. I'm gonna start with you,

2:39

what did you think? a Barbie off.

2:41

As he gets a lot and I know your

2:43

first customer says it. Live up to the hype.

2:45

Yes, it does that. I have a lot of

2:48

fun. Yes, I did. But. It's still

2:50

like it doesn't sit value. Wow.

2:52

Bad enough a. Sunday? How do you

2:54

mean doesn't sit various. And

2:56

like I'd love to talk more about this that

2:58

you guys like. The first thing I thought that

3:00

I came out of that he had Alvarez. Is

3:03

at camp and that's I mean has

3:05

a star. Citizen Miss and film critics

3:08

is the most horrific question because is

3:10

it scanned and you don't get it?

3:13

That's. Like the were saying you might as

3:15

as of right up to specify a point

3:17

B S L I kept asking us as

3:19

as at camp and that I was on

3:21

to a friend of mine and she said

3:23

sell it's camp is a bad defense as

3:25

the same you don't see the like so

3:27

yeah I me I don't know I said

3:29

scammed if the camp is lost on me

3:31

but I do think it's trying to do

3:33

a lot of teams. Trying. To say

3:35

a lot of things that I'm not sure if you

3:37

know the people in the film either I people to

3:39

see it. Having said that,

3:42

I have so much fun Like

3:44

I grew up in the nineties,

3:46

I had these dogs so they

3:48

do manage to make the right

3:50

a lot of fun. I was

3:52

younger I had so much fun

3:54

at this movie. I think they

3:56

executed. It's with enormous panache. In

3:58

terms of the production design, I

4:00

really love the performances. Think Margot

4:02

Robbie a surprisingly poignant in this

4:04

movie which is kind of will

4:06

understand better. I think when she'd

4:08

seen It's and Ryan Gosling it's

4:10

hilarious And this I really like

4:12

Ryan Gosling and dramatic roles. but

4:14

when I see Ryan Gosling be

4:16

do see funny. I always think

4:18

I just want wash Ryan Gosling

4:20

be goofy funny forever. But you

4:22

know, like the Daughtry, I feel

4:24

conflicted about everything it's trying to

4:26

say. There is a lot of

4:28

textual critique of patriarchy. And Critique

4:30

of Capitalism and Critique of Mattel?

4:33

Hello, and it's like what does

4:35

it means As have these textual

4:37

critiques When all the extra textual

4:39

stuff including how the movie was

4:42

made, how the movie is being

4:44

marketed, who the movie is going

4:46

to benefit, All of that stuff

4:48

is all taking place firmly with

4:50

in all of these systems. Because

4:53

for example, when you're doing critique

4:55

of Mattel in it's very male

4:57

Leadership That very male leadership and

4:59

wouldn't. Have signed off on this movie if

5:02

they thought it was gonna hurt them so

5:04

I feel really conflicted between the kind. Of

5:06

Textual. An extra textual stuff that's going.

5:08

On but at the same time I've loved

5:10

looking at the zoo. the I think the

5:12

performances like I said are great. I had

5:15

a wonderful time and I think it's super

5:17

funny or use a Harris or would be.

5:19

I mean there. Is of course that

5:21

tension between art and commerce that

5:24

is always going to exist and

5:26

has really become something that has

5:28

been laid bare even more explicitly

5:30

of the last few years as

5:32

we've seen the franchise of Occasion

5:34

of Everything. There are ways and

5:36

examples of this where it can

5:38

really, really really work. see: The

5:40

Lego Movie. It's the difference between this

5:42

and the Lego Movie is that as

5:44

far as I can remember, Lego did

5:46

not have as nearly as much baggage,

5:48

has Barbie's does and Barbie com sweats

5:50

and so. Under that tension between art and

5:52

commerce, you also have this sort of. Added

5:55

layer tension between the sharp political

5:57

critique of the system while functioning.

6:00

Recently as a product of that system. I

6:02

really had a lot of fun

6:05

with this and I think that's

6:07

it's really. Interesting to kind of

6:09

conjure and think about. Can we, you

6:11

know, use the masters tools to dismantle

6:14

the House Center? Eccentric Sarah? is that

6:16

possible? And what I think

6:18

puts. It over the top for me

6:20

or makes it work even when it doesn't

6:22

always work for me or work over all

6:25

these are the performances is the fact that

6:27

Credit for Me has been able to take

6:29

all of these sort of familiar stories and

6:31

her previous directorial movies. And bring

6:33

something new and interesting to them.

6:36

Something like little women which is

6:38

very. Different kind of products from

6:40

Barbie but is also a beloved

6:42

property. She. Was able to sort of make

6:44

that fresh and make that new and I think

6:46

she's doing. Something similar here. Even

6:48

if the tension is a little. Bit

6:51

more fraud and doesn't quite go down as

6:53

easily. you know? I said a while ago

6:55

that that was part of what made me

6:57

so hopeful. That credit for it was

6:59

making this that hoping that this could be

7:01

good actually and I do think it's did

7:04

actually with. A. Lot of butts and the

7:06

love caviar. Yeah, and I guess one

7:08

of my reactions to that is like

7:10

what is the alternatives How would you

7:12

get around to critiques that we've kind

7:15

of leveled in this conversation so far?

7:17

Like, you're not going to make a

7:19

Barbie movie without Mickelson. You naturally make

7:21

a big budget studio movie without a

7:23

big budget studios center of like capitalism

7:26

as it's tendrils and every facet of

7:28

major movie make any the absurdity of

7:30

other movies? Yes, you know. I

7:34

also think alternative is that you don't

7:36

put and so much money into one

7:38

set. His sister in

7:40

mind boggling for weeks if I

7:43

guess. it's it's interesting there's a scene

7:45

in this movie that really stands out

7:47

there is a monologue in this in

7:49

which a character kind of ways out

7:51

the really complex web of pressures on

7:53

women in society and and you're expected

7:55

to do this but not this and

7:57

this but not this and you have

8:00

push for things but not push too hard. And it's

8:02

kind of a little bit of a being a woman

8:05

101. Yes, very much. It's pretty blunt. Many

8:07

would argue it's pretty necessary to put

8:09

it in this film. It's also kind

8:12

of a meta commentary on what this

8:14

movie is trying to do, right? This

8:16

movie is trying to do so, so

8:19

much and balance these

8:22

very, very, very contradictory

8:24

impulses. They want to comment

8:27

on the patriarchy and society

8:29

and feminism while still

8:31

being a big mainstream movie. It's interesting

8:33

to me that this film at one

8:35

point kind of stops and almost lays

8:37

out the enormous

8:40

task that it has

8:42

given itself. Yeah, but I think if

8:44

you are a woman, you are a woman

8:47

and you don't have the option of deciding like, I'm

8:49

just not going to be a woman because the kind

8:51

of idea of that is too complicated. Whereas

8:53

you can decide I'm not going to make

8:55

a Barbie movie, you can decide we're not

8:57

going to have a Barbie movie. And so

8:59

I think the stakes are a little bit

9:01

different. But I do think that the film

9:03

sees it that way. The film is setting

9:06

up a parallel between what

9:08

it's like to try to be a woman and

9:10

what it's like to try to be a Barbie

9:12

movie. I kind of agree with you that the

9:14

film maybe sees that parallel. I'm not sure I

9:17

see that parallel. Yeah. One of the things I

9:19

think is interesting is that this film to me

9:21

is a really good example of how

9:24

many different crafts are involved

9:26

in making a film really

9:28

vital and wonderful because the

9:30

production design of this is

9:32

tremendous. The supporting

9:35

performances and thus the

9:37

casting are tremendous. The

9:39

entire look of the film

9:41

is really fun and interesting

9:43

and plays like a

9:45

very unrealistic, like for example, there's a

9:47

moment when Ryan Gosling winds up for

9:49

various reasons being thrown up into the

9:51

air. It's not supposed to

9:54

look real. It's supposed to look like

9:56

he's a doll being thrown in the

9:58

air. The way that they've done that, the

10:00

way that they've incorporated these

10:02

kind of very unreal animation

10:04

type of styles, you

10:07

know, music supervision. I

10:09

think it's lovely to have a

10:11

film come out that works really

10:14

well for me that really

10:16

puts the spotlight on not just the

10:18

writing and not just the acting, although

10:20

I think both are really strong, but

10:22

every kind of element of

10:25

this film, you can

10:27

see so many crafts

10:30

really popping in this movie and that was

10:32

something I appreciated a lot. I was not

10:34

expecting to hear the Indigo Girls pop up

10:36

in this movie. That

10:39

was fun. Perfectly deployed. Look, if you've listened to

10:41

me long enough, if you've known me long enough,

10:43

you know how I feel about franchises and how,

10:46

to Linda's point, yes, maybe we just don't

10:48

make this movie. But at the

10:50

same time, I can understand why we feel

10:52

the need to sort of reclaim

10:55

or attempt to reimagine these

10:57

very emblematic figures of the

11:00

past to put them into

11:02

this present moment. It is

11:04

kind of important for maybe those

11:06

sort of emblematic figures to evolve in

11:09

certain ways. And yes, it's

11:11

tricky when that's happening within that

11:13

company that's still fans to profit

11:16

and it's in and way. There

11:18

are many moments in this film that feel really

11:20

a lot like Mattel burnishing its

11:22

image and very clearly wanting to

11:24

reclaim the sort of loss that

11:26

it's had in the last few years to other companies,

11:29

whether it's the brass dolls. I can

11:31

see how that tension plays out, but I also

11:33

think, you know, it does make it interesting as

11:35

a critic and as a consumer to sort

11:37

of grapple with these things because I do

11:40

think maybe there is a positive side to trying

11:42

to grapple with those things, even when it's still

11:44

in service of a corporation in some ways. I

11:47

don't know. It's hard. Yeah. I mean,

11:49

I'm glad you bring that up Aisha, because what

11:51

I was thinking is I'm thinking

11:54

this film is self-aware. I'm hoping

11:56

this film is self-aware, but

11:58

what if it's not? I mean, I

12:00

would think it is because I think it's very self-aware.

12:02

It's kind of growing. I mean, yes,

12:04

she's earned my trust. Exactly. And

12:06

that's literally the only thread I'm hanging

12:09

on, like the monologue that you talk

12:11

off. It's very climactic. But

12:14

it's also so trite. Like

12:16

we've all seen forwards

12:18

or like some kind

12:21

of inspirational Instagram square

12:23

with some of those words. You can't be

12:25

this, you can't be that, you can be

12:27

this, you can't be that. But we've

12:29

all seen some version of that

12:31

and it kind of gets reduced

12:34

to being this programmatic algorithm,

12:37

which I don't know, it just becomes very

12:39

trite for me. That first time is huge,

12:41

big, but then it keeps

12:43

happening over and over and over again. And

12:46

that's when you're like, okay, so is it just

12:49

a punch line? Is it just a buzzword sort

12:51

of a thing? It's so

12:53

complicated. The best thing about this movie

12:55

is when it is weird. And

12:58

there are a lot of things about this

13:00

movie that are just like weird and kind

13:02

of out there. Kate McKinnon isn't

13:04

it for him to fake? Come into my

13:06

weird house. Hi, I'm weird Barbie. I am

13:09

in the splits. I have a funky haircut

13:11

and I smell like basement. Oh my God,

13:13

I had a weird Barbie. Yeah, you

13:15

did. Also just this

13:18

much seen clip of Margot Robbie saying, do

13:20

you guys ever think about dying? There

13:23

are these moments in

13:25

the film that are really odd

13:27

and kind of unsettling. And those

13:30

are the places where I appreciate

13:32

it the most and the journey

13:35

of Ryan Gosling's Ken. That

13:37

character is so freaking weird. And

13:40

I don't think it

13:42

follows necessarily from the

13:45

cultural idea of Ken as

13:47

much as the kind of Margot Robbie

13:49

Barbie does. This Ken

13:51

feels a little bit to me more

13:54

like an invention of these films. Well, that's

13:56

because Ken, as the movie says, Ken is

13:58

just like a blank can. Completely guess

14:00

you can. Yeah, fried food was I

14:02

can forget exactly. Time to. Nobody cares. So

14:05

I want to be clear. I really liked

14:07

this movie. If somebody said should I go

14:09

see it I would be like guess I think

14:11

he said does the at I think it

14:13

is like I said exquisitely crafted. It just raises

14:15

all these interesting questions. I saw. It's interesting

14:17

because I thought a lot as I

14:20

think we all have about the hype

14:22

cycles around with movie and how much

14:24

it has felt like this masses cultural

14:26

steam room with our hearing about. But

14:28

I think one of the reasons it's

14:31

become that Masses Steamroller is that there

14:33

has been this very organic excitement around

14:35

the school that has only lead the

14:37

studio to wean and harder like a

14:39

we've Got Some people are really excited

14:42

about this so I don't think we

14:44

should. We signed the fact that a

14:46

lot of the enthusiasm. Around the Sun

14:48

is organic People Love Gerwig Man Ladybird

14:50

Great movie Gentlewomen Britain movie. I'm excited

14:53

about what ever Rudiger with does so

14:55

incredibly weak takes on this intellectual property

14:57

and promises to wrangle with it. That's

15:00

really exciting to me as as organically

15:02

excited about this film. but then as

15:04

soon as like the marketing agency the

15:06

put on the screening was like wear

15:09

pink to the screening I was like

15:11

no way you can't make me where

15:13

I. Left side, Lose sight

15:15

of the side that descent is

15:18

being pitted against Oppenheimer. as as

15:20

for Knowledge is like his own

15:22

brand. doesn't need no marketing you

15:24

know and. The. The

15:26

root of what you're saying

15:28

season as what Barbie means

15:30

to Americans, is so different

15:32

in different fancies. It's so

15:34

different from what it means

15:36

to. Indians like. I played

15:38

with the dog but it was a

15:40

class saying we were importing it from

15:42

the Us. Us expensive, so sit on

15:44

a certain class of people of god

15:47

had the dog. I also think a

15:49

lot of people in Indiana other countries

15:51

think it's a kid. So now and

15:53

if you're listening, it's not as was.

15:55

Yeah, it's certainly not like an R

15:57

rated comedy, but it's certainly not a

15:59

kid. A there for sure? Exactly

16:01

Yeah, it gets dark, it gets very.

16:04

Dark it's other than the fact that there

16:06

are some references. To what is underneath the

16:08

pants? have all these dolls. There's nothing in

16:10

here that I think is inappropriate for

16:12

kids. Are you think isn't going to care

16:15

about most? To discuss what the movie really

16:17

wants to get into is all this

16:19

stuff about you know, feminism, an existential crises

16:21

and says you know the meaning of life

16:24

and what it means to exist in a

16:26

world that doesn't care about you mean the

16:28

I think it's just you know anybody who's

16:30

playing with a Barbie right now I think

16:33

is gonna find this movie. Boring.

16:35

I know, I think it will appeal to Tweens.

16:38

Isn't that kind of what Toy Story One and

16:40

Two or about? I kept coming back. To those

16:42

movies Because. Did a lot of that

16:44

in this movie? Like playing read,

16:47

discovering? Oh. Maybe I meant for something

16:49

more Been just this. Yeah, No, you're right.

16:51

I guess my other overarching pricing was just

16:53

like. Is the connection. Between

16:55

adults Now and they're

16:57

Barbies as strong. As as

16:59

really thinks it is, I wonder how

17:02

much of this is coming from the

17:04

people having memories of playing with dolls

17:06

vs. Just like it's really easy to

17:08

cosplay this in pink and. You

17:10

know what? They're There is a. Moment towards the end where it

17:12

kind of wants to target your heartstrings again in

17:14

a very Toy Story. Kind of way. I

17:17

was just like, maybe trust me, I

17:19

play with Barbies but I don't have

17:21

that same affinity for it as I

17:23

think people might have. To other franchises

17:25

or other toys that maybe I'm completely am

17:27

is reading this. I think the film

17:29

sees people as either you play the Barbie's

17:31

in which case you're kind of a Barbie

17:34

obsesses more. you didn't play with Barbies unlike

17:36

you I said I had Barbies, I had

17:38

a Barbie dream. Our my sister had the

17:40

bar B R V I had Olympic Bar

17:42

be I never had a can. Oh I

17:44

had a cat food and instantly there aren't

17:46

Barbie obsessive. but like I think you're right

17:49

that there are a lot of people who

17:51

are not as attached to their else. Had

17:53

memories of. Barbie. specifically as maybe the movie

17:55

expects yeah i in i think so the

17:57

movie doesn't necessarily expect you to be Barbie

18:00

obsessive, they expect a lot of

18:02

people to have gone through an

18:05

awakening around Barbie and what

18:07

Barbie means. Maybe

18:09

they played with Barbie, but they have

18:12

some sort of complicated relationship with Barbie.

18:15

I did not play with Barbie at all. I have an

18:17

older sister. She only had Barbies, so she

18:19

could dye their hair and put safety pins

18:21

through their noses. Which is a phenomenon that the

18:23

movie doesn't travel at all. Which is a phenomenon that the

18:26

movie does acknowledge. So that's sort of my

18:28

relationship to it. And I was

18:30

still really excited about this film, even though

18:32

I don't come into it with a big

18:34

background of loving or caring about these dolls.

18:37

As far as whether kids will enjoy

18:39

it, I think it's worth remembering all

18:41

the things that we've said about how brightly

18:43

rendered this film is, how fun the performances

18:45

are. The musical numbers, the choreography. The

18:48

musical numbers, the choreography. All right, I

18:50

take it back. I take it back. Take your child.

18:53

I don't care. That energy pervades

18:55

it in a way where even if you're

18:57

not necessarily ready for

19:00

all its messaging around the

19:02

patriarchy, there's still a lot

19:04

of fun to be had here. There's

19:06

a lot of fun to be had. Fun at the cost

19:08

of thought, you know? It is a

19:10

cycle, and I think I'm happy this

19:12

film brings that out, at least. I agree.

19:15

We have more to say about Barbie. I still want

19:18

to talk about some of the songs. And even some

19:20

of the songs are spoilers. And Alan. And

19:22

Alan, yes. Talk about Alan. Michael

19:24

Ferris character. So after the break, we

19:26

are going to be getting into our

19:29

Barbie spoiler section of this conversation and

19:31

dive a little deeper with more Barbie

19:33

adjacent content. We will be right back.

19:37

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Back, We are now going to get

21:31

him some spoilers from the Barbie movie.

21:33

So this is your spoiler. Warning: When.

21:36

derby and ten leave barbie land and

21:38

arrive in the human world they find a

21:40

very different society than the barbie centric one

21:43

there used to swear just the police had

21:45

like to start is in the depiction

21:47

of ryan gosling scan it's a running gag

21:49

that can himself is a blank slate and

21:51

an ad on he doesn't have much of

21:54

a backstory of his own his job

21:56

as the movie points how to great comedic

21:58

effect is and i quote Beach,

22:01

you know surfer is not even my job.

22:03

I know and it is not lifeguard, which

22:05

is a common misconception very common Is actually

22:07

my job It's

22:10

just Beach So when he

22:12

and Barbie travel to the human world He

22:14

gets his first ever glimpse of the patriarchy

22:17

and he likes what he sees this leads

22:19

us to his hostile takeover of Barbie land

22:21

So let's start there and talk about what

22:23

the heck is going on with Ken our

22:26

weird washboard abd in cell thing But

22:28

archery you can't off with your thoughts. I

22:30

mean, what can I say? He really loves horses.

22:33

Can you blame me? But

22:36

I mean he's actually such

22:38

you know in modern-day parlance such a

22:40

soft boy Like you know, he just

22:43

wants to be loved and which is

22:45

why he's like doing all these very

22:48

disgusting and wrong things and Again,

22:51

like, you know We talked about how

22:53

we feel complicated in our feelings about

22:55

this and I I wonder it's very

22:57

fun And Ryan Gosling has said

22:59

in an interview that he was born to

23:01

play Ken and I agree hundred percent but

23:04

again like what part of his Narrative

23:07

arc is the film actually glorifying

23:09

definitely not the in cell King part

23:11

of it That part is like so

23:13

ridiculed that it's funny But again

23:15

in the end of it, you know What

23:18

I liked was most films have the women

23:20

going on this journey of self-discovery But

23:22

here it's like, you know Ken needs to

23:25

go on that which is somewhat appreciated but

23:28

then I'm also like there is

23:30

the retribution for all

23:32

this havoc and really Bad

23:35

things that he brought into this

23:37

very pink very plastic beautiful world

23:39

Yeah, you know, I agree with

23:41

Badachi. I think it's very funny

23:43

and I definitely think the portrayal

23:46

of Ken and really all

23:49

the Kens when they go

23:51

into this We are going to be

23:53

in charge now because you know at the beginning of

23:55

the movie you really see that they live in Service

23:57

to all the Barbies essentially And

24:00

when Ken goes and discovers what it's

24:02

like for men to be in charge

24:04

of everything, he says, well, this is

24:06

great. And he comes back and he

24:08

imports it. I do think the portrayal

24:10

of how those guys act when they

24:12

really sort of allow themselves

24:14

to wallow in their dude-osity is extremely

24:16

funny. This maybe is where we can

24:19

talk about the fact that at one

24:21

point they all serenade their barbies with

24:23

Matchbox 20's push. I

24:25

love it. I love it. I love

24:27

it. I love it. I love it.

24:30

I love it. I love it. They

24:32

play the guitar at them. Yeah. They

24:35

play the guitar at them, as

24:37

they say. That

24:44

definitely got me howling. You know, it's a

24:46

very sweet portrayal by

24:49

Gosling. Like, sweet

24:51

dummy is kind of a

24:53

classic, funny way

24:55

that guys like this can sometimes

24:57

act. James Marsden has done similar

24:59

things. But

25:01

I do wonder, like, these guys

25:04

get pretty hateful in the sense that

25:06

they kind of want to take everything

25:08

away and run the government and kick

25:10

these barbies out of their houses. He

25:13

just hasn't come to terms with the fact that

25:15

Barbie doesn't love him. And if she patiently explains

25:17

to him that she doesn't love him, then

25:19

he sort of comes around and he's like, okay.

25:22

And I have a certain unease about whether

25:24

that's really what guys who act like actually

25:26

need is that they're sad and they need

25:29

a journey of self-discovery. You know,

25:31

the ultimate answer turns out to be like

25:33

distract them long enough to vote. If you

25:35

think about it, it's very unsatisfying. But

25:40

if you don't think about it too

25:42

hard, it's actually very funny. And there

25:45

are some really fun jokes. I admire

25:47

Greta Gerwig and Noah Baubach for throwing

25:49

in a joke about the Snyder

25:52

Cut. Like, you're definitely poking the

25:54

bear. I mean, look, can I

25:56

posit a theory that perhaps part

25:59

of. I don't know

26:01

if it's the problem with the movie or

26:03

just something that I found a little weird

26:05

to think about it is the fact that

26:07

Ken is kind of a slightly

26:10

more interesting character than Barbie

26:12

in this movie, perhaps unintentionally

26:15

so. Yes, obviously the

26:17

whole joke is that he's, you

26:19

know, inconsequential, basically. Even

26:21

if Ken's arc at the end feels a

26:23

little bit old fashioned and kind of basic

26:25

in a way, I do think

26:27

that he still has a

26:29

little bit more to play with as

26:32

a character because his whole deal is

26:34

just like patriarchy. And

26:36

then Barbie's whole deal is way more complicated because

26:38

she has to deal with Mattel and this

26:41

idea of what she's supposed to be

26:43

versus what she actually has been received

26:45

as. And the whole Mattel

26:47

thing is very like, oh, these

26:49

are my corporate overlords and I'm going

26:51

to poke fun at them, but I'm not going to poke too

26:53

hard or enough that like they're not going to prove this. Because

26:56

Ken is just patriarchy and that's something

26:58

you can more easily rib. The

27:01

fact that he gets an entire dream ballet, the

27:04

dream ballet, which is very Bob

27:07

Fosse, Gene Kelly, I should set

27:09

up. So towards the end of the

27:11

film, all the Kens have turned

27:13

on each other because all the Barbies

27:16

have pitted them against each other. And

27:18

so there's this whole beach battle scene

27:20

where different Kens are going after different

27:22

Kens. It's very funny. And

27:24

like that scene turns into within it

27:27

a dream ballet sequence where all the Kens

27:29

are dancing together and Ryan Gaughton

27:31

is kind of singing about being I'm just

27:33

Ken. And

27:48

to me, like not that Barbie doesn't have

27:50

her own moments, but a whole dream ballet

27:52

is a very in any sort of musical

27:54

or movie, it's supposed to be the heart

27:56

of the movie. It's like the moment where

27:58

everything kind of changes. and you see this

28:00

sort of shift from the first part of

28:02

the show or the movie to the last part.

28:05

And so I don't know, do we think that

28:07

his arc was a little bit more interesting? I

28:09

do. The effect that

28:11

I had wasn't necessarily thinking that Ken

28:13

was more interesting, but thinking

28:15

that Ken, they do more weird stuff

28:18

with Ken and are I think a

28:20

little bit more experimental in the way

28:22

they present Ken in a way that

28:25

does give you some higher highs, but

28:27

I do think that Ken also is

28:29

the factor that causes this movie to

28:32

drag the most when it

28:34

drags. Now, I'm not

28:36

necessarily the first person who's like, yes,

28:38

there's a dream ballet. But

28:41

like the dream ballet for me was like, get

28:43

back to the movie. This is weird. Get

28:46

back to the movie. You know what? Every

28:48

dream ballet in every movie ever has been

28:50

that for some people. Yeah, no, it's true.

28:52

There are people who are like, that's the

28:54

thing and in the rain, they want to get

28:56

out of the dream ballet. There are people wearing

28:58

Oklahoma, they would get out of the dream ballet.

29:00

There are people who are like, I stopped watching

29:02

American in Paris before the super famous bar. Gosling

29:06

gets to play a broader

29:08

and more comedic kind

29:11

of sympathetic character. Robbie is playing a

29:13

more poignant sympathetic character. And I was

29:15

really wondering where they were going to

29:17

leave her. Was she going to become

29:19

like self aware Barbie? And then when

29:21

was she ever going to be able

29:23

to be happy? And because

29:26

when you get to the end of the

29:28

film, she really winds up concluding, I

29:30

don't want this life as perfect Barbie,

29:33

which, you know, might seem predictable in

29:35

a way, because you know, the person's

29:37

always gonna I want to be a real boy

29:39

or whatever. But the toys and toy

29:41

story live happily as toys. There's not necessarily

29:44

a guarantee you can't live happily as a

29:46

toy. But I think the decision

29:48

that they ultimately have her make about kind of

29:50

I want to try out the life of a

29:52

human and heaven knows that's been done. But I

29:55

think that She

29:57

really acts the heck out of the end of the. The

30:00

movie I think didn't like the fact

30:02

that this is these are beats I've

30:04

seen before. There is a moment fairly

30:06

deep into this movie where she has

30:08

discovered. Malays,

30:10

Release is kind of discovered

30:12

sadness and it's almost like

30:14

heard discovery of sadness. really

30:16

foundational. He changes who she

30:18

is and there is a

30:20

moment where I think Margot

30:22

Robbie snaps out of their

30:24

pink Barbie ness. And.

30:26

You really suddenly feel like you

30:28

are seeing this terrific actor play

30:31

a really sensitive scene where she's

30:33

playing a person and it's almost

30:35

like Barbie discovers less that she

30:37

wants to be a person and

30:39

more that she has become a

30:41

person and past and now deal

30:43

with the outcomes of being a

30:45

person. Yeah, a couple of the

30:47

scenes with Robbie kind of in

30:50

the weird Barbie House with Kate

30:52

Mccann It's Not blessed. Kate Mckinnon

30:54

Man On Fire My subplots: Kate

30:56

Mckinnon. Do a centrally this performance in

30:58

four hundred movies and yeah totally happy

31:00

to see. Can keep doing split source

31:03

and I'll be very happy She were

31:05

wonderful. A nasty up some of those

31:07

scenes or Barbies kind of going through

31:10

that crisis in the weird Barbie house

31:12

with the other Barbies and with the

31:14

America for Era character and her daughter

31:16

obsolete think a bunch of that is

31:19

quite moving. The counterpoint to my last.

31:21

Point vs I used. To

31:24

assess what if it's Barbie is

31:27

like this. like critique. Of white

31:29

says had a row Progressivism in. A

31:31

post Black Lives Matter post me to post

31:33

Love is Love world. In this essay I

31:35

will have known as as a So it's

31:37

the appointment that I think one of the

31:40

things. That I sort of picked up

31:42

on is that there are moments, especially

31:44

those scenes with Kate Mckinnon were Barbie

31:46

has this moment where she's talking about

31:48

oh I'm sorry a typical Barbies, I'm

31:50

the first thing that you think that

31:52

like when you think a party and

31:54

to me that was has a really

31:56

interesting point because it. kind of good counter

31:58

to what the movie trying to in

32:00

a way, which is that everyone can be Barbie, regardless

32:03

of their size, regardless of their race, whatever,

32:05

but then you have stereotypical Barbie, the movie

32:07

is focused on stereotypical Barbie, and it's kind

32:09

of calling out, yeah, we have all

32:11

these things but I'm still the main

32:13

Barbie. There's also a moment where she

32:15

has an option, weird Barbie played by

32:17

Kate McKinnon, gives her two options to go

32:20

and decide what she's gonna do is she's

32:22

gonna go to the real world and confront

32:24

her feelings, and she's holding up Birkenstocks,

32:26

and then the other one is a heel. And

32:28

Margot Robbie's like, no, I don't want to, I

32:31

don't wanna know, I wanna be kind of oblivious to all

32:33

of this, and I saw this sort of

32:35

this lie critique of kind of the- I

32:38

think that's definitely there. Yeah, which is like

32:40

that she has been perfect, she has been

32:42

the stereotype, but now she's realizing

32:44

that actually I maybe wanna do

32:46

something with my life and not rest on

32:48

these feelings, so I don't know. As much as

32:50

I said earlier, Ken maybe is the more interesting

32:52

one, I do think that her

32:54

journey and her arc, while also kind

32:57

of basic, does still have an undertone

32:59

of a little bit of subversiveness that

33:01

I think you have to look more

33:04

closely to find, it's not quite as obvious,

33:06

but I think it's there. I just gotta push

33:08

back on your, I wanna see

33:10

that essay I shot first, but the

33:13

film is so binary, it's 2023,

33:17

and it's so pink and blue, in terms

33:20

of everything, in terms of the

33:22

marketing around it, again, the blue

33:25

of Oppenheimer and the pink of

33:27

Barbie, it's like everything around it

33:29

is so based on the gender

33:32

binary, and it does not move.

33:34

That's always there, boys do this, girls do

33:36

this, and that may be

33:38

a little uncomfortable, so I will chill

33:41

on that a little bit, but again,

33:43

to your point Aisha, like this film

33:45

does, and many people will see the

33:47

faults in it, and many people will

33:50

see the prices in it, but it

33:52

does diversity exactly the way Mattel does

33:54

diversity. Yeah, yeah. Well, except for the

33:57

fact that, may I say, there

33:59

is a- wonderful plus-size actress in this movie

34:01

named Sharon Rooney, who people may know

34:03

from my Madpatt diary and other things,

34:06

who plays one of the Barbies. And they have made

34:08

the Barbie body types

34:10

moderately more inclusive, but I do not

34:13

think that they have made them that

34:16

inclusive. So that kind of irritated me

34:18

a little bit. That is not reality.

34:20

And I wish it were. I agree

34:22

with you. And then again, like, and

34:24

this is both the frustration and the

34:26

delight of this film, it

34:28

makes you feel like it's constantly criticizing itself,

34:30

but you as a viewer want more of

34:32

it, but then they cut you short and

34:34

be like, no, this is it. Even

34:37

the, you know, the Mattel CEO says this,

34:39

so this will send let's do this. And

34:42

that's exactly how, you know, the enterprise has

34:44

looked at diversity. Well, the other thing I

34:46

will say is that the fact that at

34:48

the end, Barbie talks to Canada now,

34:50

he's okay with not being she's honest with him,

34:53

I guess she's no longer quote unquote stringing him

34:55

along, which in itself is like, really, this is

34:57

okay. Yeah, it's right on the

35:00

line. But then it's like, okay, none of

35:02

these Barbies seem interested in the Ken. So

35:05

can we like, maybe push a little bit

35:07

further and say maybe actually they're not into

35:09

men at all? Like, yeah, exactly. You know,

35:12

like, if you're a doctor, or if you're

35:14

a president, if you're a lawyer, if you're

35:16

all these things, I'd like to

35:18

see you be a doctor and not

35:20

and that's the problem with the doll,

35:22

right? Well, the doctor does fix Ken

35:24

after he wipes out on the

35:27

beach. Yes, sure. But your point is

35:30

yes, yes, makes sense. Yeah, we are kind of brushing

35:32

up against an interesting point about this movie

35:34

and about what this movie could have been

35:36

had they opted to go this way and

35:39

opted to be a little less binary. When

35:41

I mentioned that we were going to record

35:43

a spoiler special to my partner Katie, who

35:45

was very excited about this film and hasn't

35:47

yet seen it. She was like, please tell

35:49

me Barbie is queer, please tell me they

35:51

explore that. Sorry, Katie. And they really don't

35:54

know. They really don't. And for I think

35:56

as much Queer buy in as

35:58

there is to. This movie.

36:00

Going into it, there's a lot of

36:02

unexplored territory, and obviously the odds of

36:05

a sequel are not zero The Sister:

36:07

There's a lot more terrain left to

36:09

explore, right. Yeah, yeah, I

36:12

mean I think the thing that I took

36:14

away from this is that the relationship that

36:16

is kind of positive by Mattel between the

36:18

cans in the Barbie's is that they tens

36:20

as the Barbie's boyfriends and I think with

36:22

the Barbie's a kind of saying is that

36:24

they're not really concerned about their romantic lives

36:27

at all. and I think as I use

36:29

a sad I think it's sort of like

36:31

they're not into the tens at all. they're

36:33

not into man that all, they're not into

36:35

each other at all romantically. And I think

36:37

one of the things that the film is

36:39

sort of positing as lights may. Be the

36:42

romantic part of it. really only works

36:44

if you know. if you buy a

36:46

Barbie you have a barber. you play

36:48

with a Barbie. Maybe. A

36:50

really does only work if you

36:52

think of can is kind of

36:54

an unnecessary add on. to sit

36:56

or like an outfit like ten

36:58

is the equivalent of an outfit

37:00

to their want to play with

37:02

Barbie dressed up like an Olympic

37:04

ice skater. Shout out to the

37:06

Barbie's that I had ends tomorrow

37:08

on a play with Barbie with

37:10

a camper van and a boyfriend

37:12

send his legs. The Barbie's are

37:14

interested in themselves and their own

37:16

lives as Barbies. The cans are

37:18

accessories. They are. Yes, the and they're

37:20

going back to Living As Accessories and I

37:22

do want to say think the other really

37:25

charming performance that I think we haven't talked

37:27

about at all as Michael Cera as Allen.

37:29

Well, our lives. All who was

37:32

kind of the tens friends. And

37:34

they sell a bunch of the Barbie's at

37:37

the end of the movie they. So a

37:39

bunch of what I think are all real

37:41

Barbies and real Barbie marketing. At

37:43

the end of the movie and the Zephyr

37:45

Allen basically says he sits into all can

37:47

close was a. Little

37:50

saying like by this doll he could

37:53

where the other dolls close and I

37:55

did enjoy all the little shoutout to

37:57

various different. Barbie it a reasons that.

38:00

The discontinued including the Magic Earring

38:02

can speaking of still have kind

38:04

of clear text as Obsessed Magic

38:06

Gearing Can and Sugar Daddy Daddy

38:08

Jazz Plus the one I was

38:11

really going into the sinking. I

38:13

hope they talk about the Skipper

38:15

doll wearing you. put her arm

38:17

over her head, her bust grows

38:20

and say did And that was

38:22

a real hall and I remember

38:24

that marketing. My soul was crying

38:26

out for a Rosy Odonil cameo

38:29

because there is a rosy oh

38:31

Donald Barbie in the late nineties.

38:33

The Wow did pass on the

38:35

opportunity to include Rosy For whatever

38:38

reason. I'm glad you mentioned Michael

38:40

Cera as Allen because one thing

38:42

that I really took away from

38:44

the so that I don't usually

38:46

take away from live action movies

38:49

is boy you really could do

38:51

a series of very funny very

38:53

wonderful Pixar style shorts. With

38:56

some of the ancillary characters in this

38:58

film the way they do with Pixar

39:00

movies, you could do a seven minute

39:02

our an episode. Like. A freestanding

39:04

short film and I would watch the

39:07

absolute hell out of it. And it's

39:09

one of the benefits that you get

39:11

from this movie being as wonderfully well

39:14

cast as it is. There are so

39:16

many funny, ancillary characters in many cases

39:18

played by very, very big name, talented

39:21

people that I wanted to see more

39:23

of that don't necessarily need more airtime

39:25

in Barbie but that I would love

39:28

to see little short films. us know.

39:30

I would like to see four hours of

39:32

the can movie starring thing see Ben And

39:34

yeah, not seven. Minutes Kingsley been a Ds

39:36

who plays Malcolm X in One Night in

39:38

Miami and is so good in it is

39:41

just like one of the can sit. In

39:43

the also play Obama? yeah and he's other that

39:45

away Bob Marley. so he's basically played. Iconic

39:47

figures of the twentieth century

39:49

and. and send is

39:51

our culture for father yeah and also

39:54

what i love about allen is and

39:56

this is i pod creditor that has

39:58

been set a goal is that

40:00

nuance in friendship, in

40:03

allyship, that like, I have your

40:05

back no matter what happens, Francis has

40:07

friendship. And I saw a

40:09

peak of that in Alan and I really,

40:12

I mean, he's really one of my favorite

40:14

characters. I love Alan. Justice for Alan. I

40:17

think he's super funny in this, absolutely

40:20

in the pocket in terms of a Michael Thera performance.

40:22

The weird thing about this movie

40:24

is that yes, it's a toy

40:26

movie. Yes, it's a Mattel movie.

40:29

Yes, it's been so heavily marketed,

40:31

that you honestly feel like your

40:33

postal carrier is going to come to the door

40:35

in an all pink uniform and be like here

40:37

to deliver the Barbie mail because it just doesn't

40:39

feel like you can get away from it. But

40:42

if that weren't true, this is

40:44

a live action comedy with this

40:46

kind of sweet ending.

40:49

I do really like the ending where

40:52

she meets up with Rhea Perlman playing

40:54

the inventor of the Barbie doll. I

40:56

like how that plays out. I think it's really

40:59

sweet. I really like the montage at the end

41:01

where she kind of is introduced to how

41:03

life really works. It all comes

41:06

down, I think, to how you

41:08

feel about the moment when

41:10

Margot Robbie as Barbie is talking about

41:12

how you feel like you're not pretty

41:15

enough. Helen Mirren as

41:17

the narrator comes on and says

41:19

a note to the filmmakers, Margot

41:21

Robbie is not the person to cast if

41:24

you want to make this point. It

41:26

is the movie doing a

41:28

thing and also hanging a

41:30

sign on the thing that they're doing,

41:33

saying that they're doing it. It's like,

41:35

is that better? I don't know if

41:37

it's better. I laughed. Do you know

41:39

what that scene is? That scene is Wayne and

41:41

Garth talking about product placements

41:44

and holding up a bag of Doritos in

41:46

Wayne's world. I didn't mind that. I laughed.

41:48

Oh, I did too. I did too. Yeah,

41:50

yeah. I mean, but you're right. Your mileage

41:52

may vary about that. To me, that was

41:55

one of the less egregious signposting

41:58

while patting yourself in the back. you're

42:00

calling something out. But I agree with

42:02

Aisha. Yes. Yeah. All right.

42:04

Well, I think we're gonna leave it there. Are you sure

42:06

I could go on? Push

42:11

you around. Yes.

42:14

Shout out to Ryan Gosling's Matchbox 20

42:17

impression, which is very good. He's

42:19

got a great voice. He did.

42:21

Yeah, I wanted to stand up

42:23

and applaud. Yep, absolutely. We want

42:25

to know what you think about

42:27

Barbie. Find us at facebook.com/PCHH. That

42:30

brings us to the end of our show.

42:32

Linda Holmes, Aisha Harris, Baddhaktari D. Chaudhry. Thanks

42:34

so much for being here. Thank you. Absolutely.

42:36

Thank you so much. This episode was

42:38

produced by Mike Katziff and Anna Isaacs

42:40

and edited by Jessica Reidy. Hello, Come

42:42

In provides our theme music. I'm

42:45

Steven Thompson, and we will see you all later this

42:47

week. I

42:53

wanna push you around. When I

42:55

will. When I will. Support

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