0:00

This message comes from NPR sponsor Nissan.

0:02

Nissan knows what thrill looks like because

0:05

they design it into every vehicle they make. From

0:07

the adventurous Frontier to the Z's iconic

0:10

sports car styling. To learn more, go

0:12

to NissanUSA.com.

0:19

In the extremely divisive film, Bo

0:21

is Afraid, Joaquin Phoenix stars as

0:23

a schlubby, anxiety-ridden middle-aged

0:25

man whose existence is an extended

0:28

nightmare of guilt, shame, dread,

0:30

and paranoia. It's the latest

0:32

film from writer and director Ari Aster and

0:34

it follows Bo as he attempts to

0:36

visit his mother only to get repeatedly frustrated

0:39

by a series of deeply disturbing obstacles

0:41

that may be real or may be entirely

0:44

of his own making. I'm Glenn Weldon and

0:46

today we're talking about Bo is Afraid

0:48

on Pop Culture Happy

0:49

Hour from NPR. Joining

0:51

me today is NPR producer, Mallory Yu. Hey

0:53

Mallory. Hey Glenn. Hey. Also

0:56

joining us is Weekend Edition producer, Danny Hensel. Hey Danny.

0:59

Hey there. And rounding out the panel is Switched On Pop

1:01

producer, Rihanna Cruz. Welcome back, Rihanna. Howdy.

1:03

All right, let's talk about this film that

1:06

is gonna be so fun to talk about. So,

1:08

Bo is Afraid is the title. It's also

1:11

the understatement of the damn year. Joaquin

1:13

Phoenix plays Bo, who isn't just afraid,

1:15

he's wracked with paralyzing feelings

1:17

of guilt. And those feelings render him

1:20

docile, inarticulate, and paranoid.

1:22

They also distort his view of the world around him. We

1:25

know that because writer and director Ari Aster,

1:27

whose previous films were hereditary and mid-summer,

1:30

show us Bo's world as he sees it and

1:33

as he feels it. And Bo's world,

1:35

it sucks. His downtown neighborhood

1:38

is a hellscape and he has a fraught relationship

1:40

with his mother, Mona. She's played in flashbacks

1:42

by Zoe Lister-Jones and by Patti

1:45

LuPone in the present day. The

1:47

film also stars Nathan Lane and Amy Ryan as a kindly

1:49

couple who seem to wanna help him get to his mother,

1:51

but their motivations are shady. And

1:54

their daughter, played

1:54

by Kylie Rogers, absolutely

1:57

hates him, as do most people he

1:59

comes across.

1:59

audience. Audiences who come to

2:02

Bo is Afraid looking for a more conventional horror

2:04

movie may balk at this three-hour-long,

2:07

navel-gazing, extended anxiety

2:10

dream. And there have been social media

2:12

reports of audiences reacting with anger, but that's

2:14

what makes it so fun and so difficult

2:16

to talk about. Bo is Afraid is in

2:19

theaters now, so here's what we're gonna do. First,

2:21

we'll go around the table and get some general thoughts

2:23

and reactions. Then we'll take a little break

2:25

and get into it. Plot

2:27

details and spoilers, and we will talk

2:29

about

2:29

the ending. We'll flag

2:32

that break very clearly so you know what's coming.

2:34

Danny, let's start with you.

2:36

What'd you think of the movie? Well, uh... In

2:38

a word.

2:41

Intrigued? No, I am sort of of two

2:44

minds about this movie. I mean, I first

2:46

owned it very funny, and I think when

2:48

it tries to be funny, it's extremely

2:50

funny. It's pleasantly beguiling

2:53

and mysterious. I didn't

2:55

really feel its length at all. I was actually surprised

2:57

when it ended. I thought there was like another hour left

2:59

to go, and I think it's really insightful about

3:02

the nature of anxiety and timeless

3:04

things we can be anxious

3:05

about and have a panic attack over. But,

3:07

like, I kind of felt with other Ari

3:10

Aster movies, it kind of just at the end felt

3:12

empty to me. Like, at the end, you almost

3:14

think this is three hours of, you know,

3:17

this kind of crazy maximalism to say,

3:19

what? Like, I feel like the

3:21

end result is that Job had a Jewish

3:24

mother. Like, you know,

3:26

I just feel like these aren't real people,

3:28

and they're sort of like chess pieces that Aster

3:31

is sort of playing with, but for whatever reason, this one just

3:33

didn't quite stick the landing for me. Yeah, didn't

3:35

quite stick the landing is kind of an Ari Aster like

3:38

motif, I think. Mallory, what'd you think?

3:40

Yeah, so I'm also pretty ambivalent

3:42

about this movie is what I would say. I like

3:45

Ari Aster as a director, and I think

3:48

he takes, you know, a huge bite

3:50

with this movie. I'm not really sure

3:52

that he could really chew everything he

3:54

bit off in this. And maybe

3:56

this is as annoyingly indecisive as Bow

3:59

is throughout the whole movie.

3:59

but I liked

4:02

it until I didn't. It

4:04

worked until it didn't. It's a little

4:06

too, too, if that

4:09

makes sense. Like, it's a little too meandering.

4:11

It's a little too long.

4:14

But I don't necessarily know if that

4:16

means that I dislike it. It didn't really

4:19

take away from my being able to

4:21

kind of get into Beau's journey

4:23

and follow this horrible journey

4:25

along. And I think that, you

4:27

know, if you're a fan of Ari Aster's

4:29

work already, it's an interesting watch

4:32

and it signals a growth in this

4:34

director and I think as a storyteller

4:37

that I found really interesting. Whether

4:40

you think that's growth in a good direction

4:42

or a bad direction is totally

4:44

subjective and I think is where, you know,

4:46

people are going to be really divisive. I

4:48

will say I did like the production design

4:51

and the cinematography a lot and

4:53

there is a reveal toward the end of the

4:55

movie that is as absurd

4:58

on the nose and over the top as

5:00

the reveal at the end of Sorry to

5:02

Bother You. You know, it's the kind of thing that

5:04

made me and everyone around me laugh and

5:07

also whisper, what the heck, are you

5:09

serious right now? I found

5:12

it really funny when it was trying to be funny and

5:15

didn't quite coalesce at the end the way that I

5:17

was really hoping to. And I almost

5:19

feel like that's the point. It's

5:21

supposed to feel sort of pointless. This three

5:24

hour journey is kind of supposed

5:26

to feel like you don't win or

5:28

you don't know who's won at the end. And

5:31

I think going into it, expecting

5:33

a weird time that's going to make you

5:35

feel a little bit confused

5:38

and a lot horrible in the best

5:40

way is kind of the best way to approach

5:42

this. Oh, that makes sense. You know, a lot of the press around this

5:44

is like, it's a modern day odyssey. It's like, well,

5:47

if Odysseus was Oedipus, then maybe,

5:49

but he's not. All

5:52

right, Ria, we're all kind of coming in the same place. Are

5:54

you coming in the same place?

5:55

I think so. I feel like Beaux

5:57

is afraid is a fascinating movie. also

6:00

like Ari Aster and I feel

6:02

like it's more of a case study of

6:04

Ari Aster than like a functioning

6:07

movie designed to sell tickets

6:10

and that probably results into

6:13

people going to the theater and being baffled

6:15

at what they're seeing because they're probably expecting

6:17

something on par with Hereditary and Midsomer

6:20

and I'm part victim

6:22

to that. I went and I was

6:24

like immediately caught off guard by the

6:26

comedy

6:27

elements of it all and how meandering

6:30

it is and how scary

6:33

it's not it's not scary but it manifests

6:36

in a different way

6:38

through the anxieties throughout the movie.

6:40

It also feels like nobody

6:42

was supposed to see it I feel like Ari Aster made

6:45

this and then kind of like was like

6:47

okay this is for me and nobody

6:49

else but A24 was

6:52

like all right we're gonna put this in theaters like it's

6:54

weird it creates a weird disconnect.

6:57

I enjoyed the performances Patti

6:59

LuPone and Nathan Lane are incredible and

7:02

I think it definitely functioned

7:04

the way that it was supposed to as

7:06

like in my eyes a manifestation of anxiety

7:09

however I think I skewed

7:11

towards

7:11

not liking it for you know a few reasons

7:13

the length got me it felt very

7:15

tedious at times the tone kind

7:18

of gave me pause I didn't

7:20

take the comedic elements at face value

7:23

and you know right when it started

7:25

to like strike a nerve and I would

7:27

get like scared or alarmed it pedaled

7:30

back with something like trivial in my eyes

7:33

and it left me with an interesting

7:35

movie going

7:36

experience. I love

7:38

that I love that. I thought this

7:40

movie was very funny I thought the flow

7:42

of it the dream logic of it like when

7:45

your brain starts randomly offering

7:47

you up like situation that fills you with dread and then at some

7:50

point your higher brain flails

7:52

around and tries to pull something from your life experience

7:54

to try to impose some kind of story some kind of

7:56

narrative over it which is why your

7:59

own dreams are fascinating. to you, but everybody else's

8:01

dreams are boring. And that's what this

8:04

perfectly captured here. This

8:06

is a fever dream. This is a compounding of anxiety.

8:09

It's this one dude just catastrophizing,

8:11

right? Imagining the worst thing that could happen and

8:13

having it happen. Someone stole your

8:16

keys and your apartment gets invaded. You're

8:18

outside on the fire escape looking in on them as they're

8:20

trashing your apartment. Oh, and also by the way,

8:22

there's a brown recluse spider on the loose. That

8:24

is all very funny. I don't think the form

8:27

works particularly well when it gets away from that.

8:29

Just like it doesn't work when your brain tries to impose some kind

8:31

of narrative through line through

8:33

images that only have an emotional through line,

8:36

right? The only thing these disparate events share is

8:38

that you feel the same way about them. We do get

8:40

a comically overcomplicated explanation

8:42

for what's happening to Beau toward the end of the

8:44

film, which we'll talk about. I had to put

8:46

up with that because that's how dreams work. And I'm really glad the

8:49

actor involved in that explanation

8:51

gets a chance to chew through the monologue

8:54

that they chew through. They do a great job. But

8:57

as much as I was loving that as it was happening, I

8:59

felt like it was working

8:59

against everything else in the movie, which is so

9:02

intuitive and emotional and imagistic.

9:04

Because there are moments in this film where it's not

9:06

fighting itself like that. The fact that this 40 something

9:09

dude who lives on his own keeps referring

9:11

to his mother's house as home. That

9:14

is very intentional. That is wonderfully kind

9:16

of thematic. It all ties in. It comes back

9:18

later in a very funny line. And it's one of my

9:20

favorite things about the movie because it's something that could

9:22

be true objectively and also

9:25

emotionally. It's when those two things are working

9:27

together in tandem, where

9:29

in

9:29

much in the movie, I just felt that those two worlds

9:32

were kind of fighting each other. The movie that I kept thinking

9:34

about was Eyes Wide Shut, which is a movie that is

9:36

also very much a fever dream of a sense.

9:38

But that's a movie that I adore,

9:41

that I feel like I was with the entire time.

9:43

Beau is afraid to me seems almost

9:45

mean-spirited and prescriptive. I

9:48

have a very literal explanation for

9:51

why I feel this way, why this is all

9:53

happening. Whereas I feel like a movie like Eyes Wide

9:55

Shut is more open to the possibilities of life.

9:57

It's more grounded in reality, even if it... has

10:00

a ton of surreality baked

10:02

into it. And I feel like that combination, that balance,

10:05

works a lot better than the sort of wild

10:08

oscillation between total

10:10

fantasy and hard-grounded,

10:12

although kind of unbelievable, reality. I

10:15

mean, the film I was reminded of most was Mother!

10:17

I like this film so much more because Mother! was

10:21

just this very rigid allegory dressed

10:23

up in a lot of dreamlike execution. This is the opposite.

10:26

This is a dream with a kind of structure

10:28

imposed upon it. This feels a lot more organic and less

10:31

contrived and less over-determined than Mother! did. That's

10:33

funny because I feel like

10:35

the opposite. I enjoyed Mother! a lot

10:37

more than I enjoyed Bo is Afraid because

10:40

Bo is Afraid felt very nebulous

10:43

to me. And it was hard to trace

10:46

the different metaphors that were happening.

10:48

But the themes in

10:50

Bo is Afraid, I kind of picked

10:53

up on here and there. And

10:55

I was like, oh, this is a Jesus

10:57

allegory, right? And it kind of lost

11:00

the thread for me as

11:02

the movie went on and progressed.

11:04

And maybe I was off. But I think that

11:07

sort of nebulous thematic

11:09

elements is something that didn't

11:11

really connect with me in a

11:14

way that if the movie was more

11:16

direct and transparent with its themes,

11:18

it would have. Well, I have seen people online

11:20

trying to treat this film as a puzzle box to

11:23

parse out the bits of it that are objectively true

11:25

and what's in his head. Do not do that.

11:27

It doesn't matter. Don't do that. You are a

11:30

raccoon. This is cotton candy. Do

11:32

not get it wet. You won't like what happens. It's a

11:34

waste of effort. It's a waste of time. You're just going

11:36

to get dashed against the rocks of this movie's weirdness. Let the weirdness

11:38

stand, I say. All movies are dreams. Exactly.

11:41

Yeah,

11:41

just go along with it. The access is

11:43

the point. I mean, that opening act set in that

11:45

kind of hilariously vicious road

11:48

warrior hellscape of urban decay. I mean,

11:51

to a Fox News viewer, that's going to play like a documentary.

11:54

But everyone else is going to know what's going on, right?

11:56

I loved it. Loved

11:58

it. that whole part

12:01

of the movie with my shoulders up to my

12:03

ears because I just felt so

12:05

intensely uncomfortable. I

12:08

felt his anxiety and his paranoia in

12:10

that. Like, I do struggle with anxiety,

12:12

and it does sometimes feel like everyone

12:15

on the street is staring at you specifically,

12:17

and they're targeting you, and every interaction

12:20

that you have, even a simple one

12:22

at the drugstore, is unpleasant

12:24

and skin crawling and panic inducing.

12:27

And I think that's where Ari Aster works the

12:29

best when

12:29

he's just trying to make your

12:32

skin crawl. Yep, definitely. He really

12:34

got me there.

12:34

Yeah, I would agree that nothing in this movie is

12:36

particularly scary, but

12:39

there are so many specific moments that

12:42

I feel like tap into something that is a deep

12:44

fear of people just giving you a look

12:46

or later in the movie when he's living with a teenager.

12:49

And Glenn, I disagree. I don't think the teenager hates

12:52

him. I think he's just terrified of someone

12:55

who's not an open book that he has to read

12:58

further into. Good point. I'm

13:00

not jumping in my seat, but

13:01

later that night, I was like, oh my God, that's something

13:03

that really does terrify me, truly. We're

13:06

gonna take a beat now, and when we come back, we're gonna

13:08

get into some pretty specific plot details and

13:11

spoilers, and so this is your mama. Don't

13:13

say we didn't warn you. If you haven't seen this

13:15

movie and don't wanna get spoiled, head now

13:17

toward your nearest exit, which remember may

13:20

be behind you.

13:21

This message comes from NPR sponsor

13:23

BetterHelp. Haseu Jo, licensed

13:25

marriage and family therapist and head of clinical

13:27

operations at BetterHelp, explains

13:30

the importance of creating a safe space for therapy.

13:33

I can't tell you how many times I've had clients that say

13:35

that expression, like I've never told that to anybody.

13:38

That's when I know I've made some kind of momentous

13:41

move with this person. They feel safe

13:43

enough to expose that part of themselves,

13:45

and doing that together with somebody else

13:47

can be very powerful. To get 10% off

13:50

your first month

13:51

of online therapy, go to BetterHelp.com

13:53

slash NPR.

13:56

Let's get into it. Here's,

13:59

well, I mean this.

13:59

this movie all seems to be taking place inside

14:02

Beau's mind. But there

14:04

is, believe it or not, an overarching plot underneath

14:06

it all that the movie sort of asserts.

14:09

I mean, here's what I think the movie's reality

14:11

is ostensibly, right? The trigger

14:14

of this story is Beau's inability to

14:16

visit his mother as he'd planned, and his very

14:18

rich and powerful mom is so incensed

14:20

by this that she fakes her death and gets her

14:22

employees to put him through a series of trials,

14:25

filming him all the while to get him to admit

14:28

how he's failed her as a son.

14:29

And while she's told him all his life that

14:32

his father died and the act that conceived

14:34

him, this was a lie meant to keep him from

14:36

being with any woman besides her. His

14:38

father is in fact alive, though trapped

14:40

in his mother's attic with Beau's feral, forgotten

14:43

twin. Beau's dad is

14:45

a giant penis monster. And

14:47

then there's Parker Posey, who plays

14:49

Elaine. She's Beau's long-lost childhood

14:52

crush, for whom he's carried a torch for decades.

14:54

They are reunited at his mother's house only

14:57

for her to die suddenly mere seconds

14:59

after they finally

14:59

consummate their relationship to

15:02

the strains of the best Mariah Carey

15:04

needle drop in recorded history. There's

15:06

also an extended sequence in this film in

15:09

which Beau seems to find refuge in art,

15:11

specifically in a play put on by a traveling theater

15:14

troupe. We are meant to see this, I

15:16

think, as Ari Aster suggesting that

15:18

art making films perhaps has

15:20

the power to heal even

15:23

someone as damaged as Beau, but

15:25

then he pulls that rug out from underneath us too.

15:27

The film ends when Beau kills his mother

15:29

and is put on trial for his crimes against her,

15:32

which include giving her less than impressive

15:34

birthday gifts. He dies and the audience

15:36

for his trial starts filing out over the closing

15:38

credits in much the way the audience

15:41

of Beau is afraid is doing at the same

15:43

time. Obviously, this movie is meant

15:45

to unsettle, to disturb, to annoy, but

15:48

it's difficult to talk about without dealing with it as a whole,

15:50

including that ending, those endings,

15:52

all six of those endings. So,

15:55

Rihanna, can I start with you? Let's get into it as a whole.

15:58

Spoilers abound. What'd you think?

15:59

With the spoilers in mind,

16:02

I do stand by the fact that it feels like

16:04

a case study of Ari Aster, especially

16:06

with the play section being described by

16:08

Euglena's, it may

16:11

be standing for art, like saving

16:13

us from our own anxieties and

16:16

seeing our troubles reflected on stage.

16:19

I think there's a lot of really personal elements

16:21

in the movie and whether

16:24

or not those are successful. I

16:26

don't know if that landed with

16:28

me, the way that the movie

16:31

wanted it to, but I think

16:33

that meandering

16:36

sort of, like you said, six different

16:38

ending plot, ending

16:40

with

16:41

Richard Kind ruling

16:43

over. Hey, Richard Kind. Ending

16:45

with

16:47

the trial of Beau for his sins,

16:49

it evoked Truman Show

16:52

comparisons for me, and

16:54

that's a movie that I love, but

16:57

I think that Beau

16:59

is afraid sort of pales in comparison to

17:01

that because of how meandering it is. And

17:04

honestly, over the course of this conversation, I'm

17:06

realizing that maybe I misinterpreted the movie

17:09

where it is supposed to be like

17:11

a dream and it's supposed to not really make sense

17:13

and everything is supposed to sort

17:16

of flow

17:17

in and out as Beau goes on this

17:19

odyssey. And I think the movie is successful

17:22

in doing that because I left confused, but

17:24

was it for me? No. When

17:27

you bring up the Truman Show, that was something that

17:30

I also immediately picked up.

17:32

When I was watching Beau is Afraid and we get

17:35

to the section where

17:37

Mona reveals that everything

17:39

in Beau's life up to this point has been

17:42

calculated and staged

17:44

by her that the love

17:46

of his

17:47

life that he has waited for was

17:49

her employee and that his therapist

17:51

was her employee. I

17:54

wished that we had gotten a little bit more

17:56

of how disorienting that would be

17:58

for someone like him.

17:59

like Beau to realize, you

18:02

know, we see Beau start to panic, like what, what,

18:05

what, but he doesn't really react or respond

18:07

any differently than he does in

18:10

any other part of the movie to any other revelation.

18:12

So it sets up that

18:15

comparison. And then Rihanna, like you say,

18:17

I think it pales in comparison because we

18:19

never really get the full emotional

18:21

picture of what that would do to a person or what that

18:23

could do to a person.

18:24

I think it's a lot of those just wild

18:27

turns that don't quite land.

18:30

I think my take is that I sort of understand why

18:33

the father is a giant penis monster,

18:35

why Mona has to explain why she's doing all these

18:38

things. It ends up being like the

18:40

least interesting option. It feels

18:42

like a very first idea, best idea approach.

18:45

Can we talk about living God on

18:47

earth, Parker Posey? Yes.

18:49

Of course we can. When she appears

18:52

for the first time in person, which is towards

18:54

the back end, I just thought, A,

18:57

I love Parker Posey. I'm one of the

18:59

great idols of my life. But B, can

19:01

she star in five movies right now? Every

19:04

choice she makes is always the most interesting,

19:06

intuitive and surprising choice. And

19:09

she's funny, she's dramatic. She's

19:11

amazing, Parker.

19:12

She comes in like a breath of fresh

19:14

air. Through the whole movie, there

19:16

were points where it would start to lose me. And

19:19

then we would dive into

19:21

an animation sequence that I just found

19:23

beautiful if indulgent

19:26

and meandering. Or Parker Posey

19:28

shows up and takes this movie in

19:30

a completely different turn. I was not

19:32

expecting the way her character

19:35

ends up.

19:35

That's safe to say, yeah. I

19:38

liked the way it ended with

19:40

the trial and sort of almost anticlimactically,

19:44

where you're like, wait, is this really the end of the movie?

19:46

Because it sort of reminded

19:48

me of being in a packed midnight

19:51

showing of Inception when that screen

19:53

first cuts out on the top. The

19:55

audience just sort of rumbles, like what the

19:57

heck just happened? the

20:00

way this movie is going to end, and that's kind

20:02

of how I felt. You want there

20:04

to be a point, right? You want to sit

20:06

through this whole movie, this torturous

20:08

journey of Bose, and

20:11

you want him to, like, learn

20:13

something or figure out

20:15

a way to be free from his mom. But

20:18

there isn't a point, because sometimes life is

20:20

just like this. You

20:22

know, is life just going to be awful?

20:24

And it also kind of reminded me of some

20:27

religious trauma that I have. Being

20:29

raised evangelical,

20:29

the idea of, like, getting to heaven's

20:32

gates and being judged on all

20:35

of your sins and the worst,

20:37

pettiest thoughts that you've ever had,

20:40

like, displayed in front of you, was kind

20:43

of one of my worst fears as a kid.

20:45

It's a horrible way to live. And so

20:47

when we got to that point, I was like, wow, this

20:50

is sort of like you've delved into my psyche,

20:52

and I don't like it.

20:53

So let's give Ari Aster

20:56

some props for, A, casting,

20:59

and B, writing for his actors.

21:01

As soon as I heard Richard Kine's voice on that phone,

21:04

I was like, oh, this is going to be good. I hope he

21:06

turns up. As soon as I heard Patti LuPone's voice

21:08

on that home, I'm like, what is she going to do? And man.

21:11

I will say also, we mentioned the I word, the indulgent

21:14

word. Any work that

21:16

exists in a vacuum of the artist's head

21:18

isn't art. It's a journaling. It's therapy, right?

21:20

I do not think this film is indulgent because

21:23

I think if it was, it would land a lot different. It

21:25

would come from a place of mere

21:27

grievance, of proving to us

21:29

that Beau has been wronged. We've all

21:32

experienced autobiographical works

21:35

that are just grievance journals. They're just that refuse to

21:37

admit any personal fault that are all about settling

21:39

scores. Everyone was wrong. I was right all

21:41

along. This film paints

21:44

the mom as a monster in such

21:46

a ridiculous, very funny, overblown way

21:49

to show us how pathetic Beau is,

21:51

how sad and sick and defeated

21:54

and self-defeating he is. And as soon

21:56

as it becomes clear that this is autobiographical

21:59

on Ari Aster's part, It becomes that

22:01

it's not really indulgent. It's almost the opposite. It's

22:03

masochistic. It's this extended

22:06

exercise in cinematic self-flagellation I

22:09

found that front Well, I was gonna say I found that frustrating but you

22:11

can't say that about this movie because the movie is just gonna turn right

22:13

around You kind of wipe its hands ago

22:16

mission accomplished, you know, like that's that's

22:18

what I set out to do But there is and

22:20

to Rihanna's point there is a big flaw

22:22

at the center of this movie And I think

22:25

his identification with bow caused

22:27

him to underwrite who bow is

22:29

I think he did it intentionally. I think it's

22:31

a strategy but in his mind

22:34

bow is not a person. He's not a character He

22:37

is everything ariastre hates about

22:39

himself. He is passivity itself

22:42

this would become misery porn if a wasn't

22:44

so funny and be if bow actually

22:46

was a Character because when when Phoenix

22:48

is in that bodega and he sees the people streaming

22:51

into his building and he's saying no Oh,

22:53

no. Oh, no. It's funny

22:55

because he's not a person He's just this

22:58

construct on whom

23:00

all the bad things happen and

23:02

that means I never felt Invested

23:05

I never felt moved. He is a cipher

23:08

and You know hiring Joaquin

23:10

Phoenix get you around some of that but not all of it

23:12

But I'm glad it was so funny because I found it very funny He's

23:14

done that performance a lot better in the

23:17

movie inherent vice Yeah, right where a lot

23:19

of things are happening to a guy who is in disbelief

23:22

Yeah I found Joaquin Phoenix to

23:24

just be doing what you hire Joaquin Phoenix

23:26

to do and not going beyond that

23:29

It feels like ariastre

23:31

working through some deep deep trauma

23:35

and insecurity and anxiety

23:38

in three hours and maybe

23:40

the reason that it's three hours

23:42

long is because when you are working through your own Trauma

23:45

and anxiety you don't want

23:47

to let anything go.

23:48

Everything is important because it's how I feel I

23:51

also want to mention the original title

23:54

for the movie disappointment Boulevard,

23:56

which I think sums up the movie

23:58

a lot better and Bo is

24:00

Afraid

24:01

does because framing

24:04

it under that title, Disappointment Boulevard

24:06

kind of sets it up for the more comedic elements

24:08

and you're kind of following Bo along

24:11

his journey. And I feel

24:13

like Bo is Afraid is supposed to intentionally

24:16

kind of dissuade you from looking

24:19

deeper into the plot.

24:21

But I do think that it trivializes

24:23

some of the themes in the title because

24:26

it really just boils it down to, oh, this

24:28

guy has anxiety. Isn't that crazy? And

24:32

I like the other title better is

24:33

what I'm gonna say. Yeah, oh God, this

24:35

movie is funny and frustrating. Okay. We

24:38

wanna know what you think about Bo is Afraid.

24:40

I'm sure you think of something. Find us at Facebook.com

24:43

slash PCHH. And that brings us to the end of our

24:45

show. Mallory, you, Denny Hensler, we're at a cruise.

24:47

Thank you so much for being here. Thanks for talking

24:49

us out. Thank you. Thank you for having me. We

24:51

wanna take a moment to thank our Pop Culture Happy Hour Plus subscribers.

24:54

We appreciate you so much for showing your support for NPR.

24:56

If you haven't signed up yet, you wanna show your support and listen

24:58

to the show without a sponsor breaks, head over to

25:00

plus.npr.org slash happy hour

25:03

or visit the link in our show notes. This

25:05

episode was produced by Candace Lim and edited

25:07

by Mike Katziff. Our supervising producer is Jessica

25:09

Reedy and Alokamin. Provides our

25:11

theme music. Thank you for listening to Pop Culture

25:14

Happy Hour from NPR. I'm Glenn Weldon

25:16

and we'll see you all tomorrow.

25:18

On the Small Joys podcast, we talk with artists

25:23

and writers

25:24

about what fuels their process.

25:25

I'm Henny Fabdura-Keeb. Join me for a series

25:27

of conversations exploring the little things

25:30

that spark our creativity. Find new episodes every

25:32

Wednesday. Listen to Small

25:34

Joys from WOSU, part of the NPR network. This

25:40

message comes from NPR sponsor Teladoc Health,

25:43

bringing together virtual primary care,

25:45

mental health support and care for chronic conditions

25:47

and health care. This message comes from

25:50

NPR sponsor Teladoc Health, and

25:52

care for chronic conditions to help you get

25:54

well, stay well and live healthier.

25:56

Get started at Teladochealth.com

25:59

slash

25:59

NPR.

25:59

Thank you.