0:00

Hey, before I start today's episode, I

0:02

just wanted to let you know that

0:04

my book, What Is Stoicism, is now

0:06

available for pre-order on Amazon and a

0:08

few other places. I am very excited

0:10

about this, and I hope you are

0:12

as well. Go to stoicismpod.com/book to learn

0:14

more and to pre-order. Thanks. Hey

0:31

there, Perkatan. In today's episode, we're going

0:33

to be talking with Anya Leonard of

0:36

classicalwisdom.com. There are a lot of references

0:38

and things noted in this episode that

0:40

I'm going to link to in the

0:43

show notes. So if you're not someone

0:45

who usually checks the show notes, you

0:47

should make time to actually check them

0:50

for this episode. And if you're someone

0:52

who's like, what are show notes? You've

0:54

really been missing out because there's always

0:57

a description and a collection of

0:59

links below every episode in whatever podcast

1:01

player you're using to listen to this podcast.

1:03

So check the show notes of this episode

1:06

and in the future, check

1:08

them in general. There's useful stuff

1:10

down there. But for now, here

1:12

is my conversation with Anya Leonard

1:14

of classicalwisdom.com. This episode is

1:17

brought to you in part by Factor.

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practical. Hey there,

3:58

Prakout time. Welcome back today. I am Jory. by

4:00

Anya Leonard who is the

4:03

brain behind classicalwisdom.com and classical

4:05

kids which I thought maybe

4:07

you would call wise kids

4:10

or wise guys or something but I like

4:12

classical kids better. Anya, hi, thanks for being

4:14

here. Well, thank you for having me. I

4:16

am a big fan of everything you do.

4:18

In fact, I'm actually just a big fan

4:20

of you. You are a fun, bubbly, friendly

4:22

person and you help me not look like

4:24

such a dummy in some of the Playlist

4:27

Academy events because you're often the host while

4:29

I'm behind the scene pushing buttons and you

4:31

make my life a lot easier. When things are

4:33

going awry, you're good at buying me time which

4:35

is nice. So I'm very happy to have you

4:37

here and for anyone who doesn't know who Anya

4:39

is and isn't familiar with her work with classicalwisdom

4:41

and how long she's been doing it, I just

4:44

want to give you an opportunity, Anya, to talk

4:46

about classicalwisdom as a project, why you do it

4:48

and what the purpose of it is. Well,

4:51

yeah, classicalwisdom started 10 years ago so

4:53

it's been going on for a while

4:55

and it was originally co-founded

4:57

with a fellow named Bill

4:59

Bonner who runs a large

5:01

financial publishing house called Agora

5:05

and he actually is also the owner

5:07

of Le Bellète, a French publishing house

5:09

in Paris and they're one of the

5:11

few remaining publishing houses that critically

5:13

translate new texts and publish them because

5:15

a lot of the

5:18

other publishing houses, Loewe included, realized that

5:20

there's not so much money in it. So trust

5:23

the French to still be dedicated. And

5:26

so my initial project was, you

5:28

know, having studied the classics, having

5:31

loved ancient philosophy and history to

5:33

figure out a way to make the

5:36

classics self-sustainable. And

5:38

I know there's a lot of wonderful

5:40

programs that are involved with universities, there's

5:44

state funding and these things, but those can

5:46

be fickle. Politics change, fads

5:49

come and go. So if there's

5:51

a way that we can make

5:53

the classics and sort of the

5:55

preservation and promotion of the

5:57

knowledge that can come from history. and

6:00

philosophy and literature is something that is

6:03

valuable in and of itself. I

6:06

think that's a sort of the important goal. So

6:08

that's how it kind of started. Eventually,

6:11

I very amiably separated with

6:13

Agora because they do kind of focus

6:15

on finance and classicalism

6:18

and want to stay true to the sort of

6:20

classics. So I've been running it,

6:23

yeah, ever since. And about

6:26

a year and a half ago, we launched on

6:28

Substech. So that's been kind of

6:31

an exciting community to be part of. And

6:34

it's been going strength to strength. We

6:36

really enjoy a wonderful community

6:38

of people who love classics and history

6:40

and philosophy. And every chance I get

6:43

to kind of engage with my audience,

6:46

I just come away being like, yes,

6:48

there's good people in the world. It's

6:50

wonderful. What's the benefit of classical

6:53

wisdom? I mean, you're not

6:55

an academic by training or background, but this

6:57

seems like a genuine, just an interest that

6:59

you have that you're passionate about. Is that

7:01

something that's always been the case? Well,

7:03

okay. So my educational background is that

7:05

I'm a Johnny. And anybody who knows

7:07

what a Johnny is knows what that

7:09

means. And that means I went

7:11

to a very strange philosophy college called

7:14

St. John's. They have one in Annapolis

7:16

and in Santa Fe. And it's a

7:18

really strange program. You study the classic,

7:20

you learn ancient Greek, you don't attend

7:22

lectures, you sit around in a big

7:24

table and you argue with everybody. And

7:27

it's kind of a very unique, it's a

7:29

great book program. So yeah,

7:33

anybody who kind of knows that world will

7:35

be, they often say to me,

7:37

oh yeah, I could tell you're a Johnny. But

7:42

what I think is the value, and this

7:44

is an interesting kind of segue because I

7:46

once was talking to a professor who was

7:48

like, oh yeah, Johnny,

7:50

you're one of those classicists who just think the classics

7:52

are the answers to everything. And I

7:54

said, no, I don't think the classics are

7:56

the answer to everything. I think it's this

7:58

amazing toolbox. of resources

8:01

and information and ideas that we

8:03

have at our disposal, and people

8:06

are operating without knowledge of all this

8:08

wonderful wisdom that we already have, that

8:11

people have been asking these questions for

8:13

thousands of years, and have

8:15

great ideas about these

8:17

really fundamental questions, and so they're

8:20

a great resource to have. I

8:23

actually ended up doing my Masters in Sociology,

8:25

so a very different field, but

8:28

the love of classics crops up,

8:31

and so, again,

8:33

most Johnnies will tell you that they

8:35

finish their four-year course in the Great

8:37

Books program, and then they do something

8:39

totally random for like 10 years, and

8:42

then they go back to philosophy and the

8:44

classics. So it's not such

8:46

an unusual trajectory considering

8:49

the education I did have. Can you

8:51

say a little bit more about the school? How

8:54

does one become a member of

8:56

the – because now I'm interested, this sounds like fun

8:58

to me, and I can't be the only person who's

9:00

going to be hearing this conversation, and he's like, oh,

9:02

I want to learn more about this. Yeah, well,

9:04

the St. John's program, there's also a graduate

9:06

program that's very popular, a GI program

9:08

where you basically do an accelerated Great

9:11

Books program, and that

9:13

one's very popular as well. It's

9:15

really small. It's only about like 300

9:17

kids on the campus. It's a small

9:19

college, and there's

9:22

a lot of really cool people I've

9:25

gotten to interview over the years who

9:27

are also Johnnies and authors and stuff

9:29

like that, so it definitely is its

9:31

own little world, but it's just a

9:33

normal liberal arts college. I

9:37

had finished – I actually went to college,

9:40

I mean secondary school in the UK, so

9:44

I kind of wanted something

9:46

very different, and so yeah, ended up with St.

9:48

John's. So what is it like now to

9:50

have – you mentioned that you have

9:52

a strong community at Classical Wisdom, but

9:54

the truth is that you have almost 60,000 People

9:57

who are reading your work every month. That's

10:00

one of the largest subs facts that exists.

10:02

I don't know if you know the stats

10:04

on said stack subscriptions that sixty thousand is

10:06

a very large audience. You and your in

10:08

an elite class of some staff writers. What

10:10

is this like ambien? Are you the only

10:12

one creating this kind that you can't be

10:14

that that seems and said. Yes that I've

10:16

been working with like to this class

10:19

Ss and Rider is and I have

10:21

a managing editor and yet you know

10:23

I often forget how many people there

10:25

are and by has or my music.

10:27

If we that are like as a

10:29

football game in America is and can't

10:31

you know you're you're like twice the

10:33

stadium size, like. Air

10:36

know if it's wonderful at we as

10:38

a really big. A. Community and

10:40

say stop with a like over almost one hundred

10:42

and forty thousand. Followers. And

10:45

Facebook and and a very seven

10:47

social media channels. And you know.

10:49

What I'm most proud about though,

10:51

is how wonderfully international Classical isn't

10:53

is where read and hundred and

10:55

seventy eight countries. Which. Just

10:58

as a international person myself, I

11:00

love knowing that were connecting people

11:02

from around the world in a

11:04

level of classics and that it's

11:06

kind of like this shared project

11:08

of promoting and preserving smash Any

11:10

and to know that people all

11:12

over the world are interested in

11:14

this ah I think is like

11:16

kind of connects us in a

11:18

really awesome way. My favorite thing

11:20

about is that while everything on

11:22

this purchases very related to stoicism,

11:25

maybe one relationship removed, we have

11:27

to talk about Cicero, where we

11:29

have to talk about Plutarch or

11:31

something. We might get into something

11:33

that's not stoicism business the time.

11:35

it's stoicism with mention of cynicism

11:37

every element. But if I'm just

11:39

looking at the front page of

11:41

classical wisdom that time I've got

11:43

Cicero owes its dating advice, the

11:45

conversion of Constantine how important our

11:47

dreams and should we pay attention.

11:49

to them love tips from the previous

11:51

i mean it is and you know

11:54

we're talking with before i hit the

11:56

record button people come into philosophies in

11:58

some time through stoicism, but they always

12:00

come to it through one, or they

12:02

seem to frequently come to it through

12:04

one avenue. And they might, as they

12:06

build their knowledge of that one avenue,

12:08

think that that's the, maybe be under

12:10

the impression that that's the only thing

12:12

that, that's the best option, because it's

12:14

the way they found philosophy. But one

12:16

of the greatest benefits of classicalwisdom.com is

12:18

people could come here and learn all

12:20

kinds of things that are, I mean,

12:23

it's a smattering. It's such a large

12:25

collection of philosophical content and it's all

12:27

excellent, Adi. It's all really good. Oh,

12:29

thanks. Well,

12:31

you know, it's funny because when

12:34

you first tell somebody, oh yeah, I do the

12:36

classics, they think it's going to be this really

12:38

niche field. But we

12:41

cover basically like 12,000 BC.

12:44

Like I try to do as Minoans, Mycenaeans. I

12:46

mean, and I still like, I

12:48

love getting involved in the Babylonians

12:50

and the Egyptians because they, they,

12:52

it's, it's not like history

12:55

doesn't have those neat delineations that

12:57

everybody sort of influenced. All the

12:59

first philosophers in Greece had traveled

13:01

to the East and to

13:03

Egypt and places like that. So, you know,

13:06

it's always a bit of a continuation, but

13:08

I like going from there like all the

13:10

way potentially to the fall of the Eastern

13:12

Roman Empire, you know, so we,

13:14

and then you cover the

13:17

territory. I mean, we're going Hadrian's Wall,

13:19

North Africa, all the way to India. So,

13:23

you know, you could be talking about Scythians one

13:25

week, Mycenaeans

13:27

another week, the, the, the

13:29

Gauls and, you know, Roman,

13:32

the, the invasion of the Roman Saxons.

13:34

I mean, they, there's

13:36

quite a lot to cover. Or

13:38

you could be talking about Lecistrata by

13:41

Aristophanes. Never even heard of this. I

13:43

assume it's a play. Oh, that's

13:45

a great play. I mean, that

13:47

is like a fan favorite. Usually

13:50

women all try to band together

13:52

to stop men from having war

13:54

by just all denying

13:56

them their husbandly

13:59

rights. Sure, the thing

14:01

they want the most usually, yes. So

14:04

it's, I mean, but it's such a hilarious

14:06

premise, as you can imagine, and it's very

14:08

body and it's a

14:11

great play. And Aristophanes is actually, you know,

14:13

even though he's a comedic playwright, he actually

14:15

gives us such great insight in history. He

14:17

gets to make fun of people and get

14:19

away with it. I mean, he's sometimes our

14:21

primary source on things. So

14:24

is it really value both historical

14:26

and entertainment wise with

14:29

studying a whole wide range from the

14:31

classical world? I know you said that it

14:33

doesn't have really distinct divisions and that it's

14:35

kind of messy, right? Because

14:37

there's a lot of things happening at once

14:39

and I think that's not the way people

14:41

think of it when they think about the

14:43

classics in general or history in general. Do

14:45

you have a favorite portion of what's encompassed

14:47

within classics? Like are you someone who's just,

14:50

yeah, that's the question. I'm not going to try to

14:52

make it any more complicated. Well, I'm sure like

14:54

lots of people would say, oh, you know, you

14:57

got the golden age of Athens and that's where

14:59

you've got Plato and Socrates and all

15:01

those guys and Aristotle and

15:03

Pericles and Alcibiades. But you said 12,000 BC. That's

15:08

way before any of that. Way before. You

15:11

know, though, I would say probably the eighth century

15:13

BC and seventh century BC are some of my

15:15

favorites because I'm

15:17

a big fan of Sappho and

15:20

I wrote children's book on Sappho

15:22

actually called the Lost Poetess. I

15:24

really like the pre-Socratic philosophers. Like

15:26

I've been championing that we should

15:29

rename them because I think it's,

15:31

you know, a bit

15:33

of a slight just saying that all they are

15:35

is a reference to Socrates. I mean, they are,

15:37

I like calling them the first philosophers like dailies

15:41

of, of mellitus. I mean, we, we

15:43

gotta bring these guys back. Right. They're

15:46

like philosophical plot devices. That's it. That's what

15:48

we've reduced them to. No, not fair. Not fair.

15:51

Great. Heraclitus, like there's so many of them.

15:53

I think actually one of the biggest problems

15:56

they have are just very difficult

15:58

to pronounce names. They just

16:00

haven't gotten their day in the sun, but

16:02

their ideas, their way of looking at the

16:04

world. And as somebody who

16:07

hasn't gone very niche,

16:09

I actually love the

16:12

messy interdisciplinary intersectionality

16:16

of these guys because they're

16:18

philosophy and science and art.

16:21

They're all of them at the same time. When

16:24

we free ourselves up

16:27

from our modern classification mode,

16:29

you can come up with these

16:32

great insights and ideas and revelations

16:35

when you allow yourself to just see

16:38

them all mixed together. And I don't

16:40

mean that in a hippy dippy sort

16:42

of way. I mean that in a

16:45

legit math, science, philosophy, all coming together.

16:47

Well, that's interesting. So then I have to

16:49

ask a natural question here because this show

16:52

is usually, as I said, only

16:54

about stoicism. Do you feel like

16:57

something is lost when, in general,

16:59

not any individual in particular, but

17:01

when an individual dedicates themselves to

17:04

a single school of philosophy in

17:06

practice, not as an academic pursuit,

17:08

but in practice, do you think that there's

17:10

detriment in doing that? Do

17:12

you think that being a stoic, for example, maybe that's a

17:15

little bit too narrow and you could benefit by being

17:17

more than just a stoic? Personally, yes.

17:20

Of course, there's different strokes for different folks.

17:22

And some people are going to be more

17:26

rewarded by a niche

17:28

specialization, by focus, by

17:30

that kind of structure. And I

17:32

would never begrudge anybody

17:35

to follow their own path in that regard.

17:37

For me, personally, I

17:40

love Cicero's eclecticism. I

17:43

love the fact that you

17:45

have all these different ideas and you

17:47

pick the right one for you to

17:50

do. Sometimes at the

17:52

different times of your life and different situations

17:54

of your life. So again, kind of looking

17:56

back at it as a toolbox, maybe you're

17:58

feeling a little bit screwdriver is

18:00

going to be the most useful one for you and

18:02

maybe use it all the time but there are going

18:04

to be situations in your life when

18:07

having some knowledge of different

18:09

types of philosophies will resound

18:11

with you at that moment in your

18:13

life. So for

18:16

me like I think there's a lot

18:18

of value in skepticism when we kind

18:21

of face this sort of

18:23

world of excessive polarization and

18:27

this notion that we can't

18:29

really trust what knowledge we're given

18:31

like through the media and ideas

18:33

that we are not willing to listen

18:35

to the other side like the concepts

18:38

and ideas of truly keeping

18:40

an open mind and suspending judgment something

18:42

that Epictetus talks about as well but

18:44

like is kind of further expanded

18:46

on with the skeptics is hugely valuable

18:48

you know same thing with like cynicism

18:50

this is so many times

18:52

in our life where we can go wow like

18:55

you know what I think here

18:57

is really has some good insight on that and

18:59

I needed to hear that right now so I

19:01

wouldn't wouldn't want anyone to exclude from

19:03

their own toolbox knowledge

19:06

from other philosophers simply because they

19:08

didn't subscribe to a certain school

19:10

sometimes this knowledge predates stoicism as

19:12

well so why

19:15

not give yourself all the chances yeah

19:17

well okay so other than going to classical

19:20

wisdom calm and subscribing and reading all of

19:22

the great content that's published there what is

19:24

a way that someone can do that I

19:26

think that when I think of studying the

19:28

classics what I think of is man that's

19:31

I gotta go to college for that I

19:33

gotta go to school for that and be

19:35

taught by somebody who really knows their stuff

19:37

that can't be the truth anymore

19:39

right the classics have become even though I feel

19:41

like they might be at the lowest level of

19:44

popularity as they as they've ever been which is

19:46

sad I think they're at the same

19:48

time the most accessible that they've ever

19:50

been is that an accurate punch yes

19:53

certainly I mean we have

19:55

one thing I would say for a lot of people

19:58

is start with the literature

20:00

literature, start with the books, and

20:02

start with Homer, because

20:05

everybody references Homer. But

20:07

we have new translations that are coming out all

20:09

the time that make them more readable than ever.

20:12

And Emily Wilson's translation of The

20:14

Odyssey, and she's recently done The

20:17

Iliad, they're page turners. You sit

20:19

down and you get

20:21

engaged in these stories that

20:24

kind of enter you into

20:26

this other world that I

20:29

think has great value in just

20:31

approaching it. I think for a lot of people,

20:34

as you say, it can be a

20:36

bit overwhelming. There's so much information

20:38

that if you don't know one thing, you

20:40

might think, oh no. So

20:42

that's definitely something I try to do at classical wisdom,

20:45

is try to make every piece approachable.

20:48

And you just got to start chipping away

20:51

at it. We do have an essential Greeks

20:53

course, which I like to use

20:56

as a great foundational course for people.

20:59

You kind of do that and then you've got

21:02

the basic foundations of the essential Greeks, and that

21:04

can help you build on from there. For people

21:06

who are intimidated, it's a nice

21:08

starting point. But

21:12

the reality is that when we spend

21:14

our time doing the doom

21:16

scroll and you come away, you've

21:19

just spent like an hour on your phone, you say,

21:21

what did I do? And you feel drained. I

21:24

find that any bit of the

21:26

classics, you read a little bit

21:28

and you come out of it and you feel

21:30

like your brain has been fed. You feel

21:32

like you've interacted with the sublime. Just by

21:35

the sheer fact that it survived thousands of

21:37

years for a reason, there's something

21:39

just humbling and taking

21:41

you out of your everyday banalities

21:43

and just reinserting you.

21:47

For me, I find that very invigorating. I

21:51

think for a lot of people, they feel like they're going

21:54

to be intimidated and then they start it and then they

21:56

go, oh, wait a second. This is

21:58

more approachable than I thought. more

22:00

enjoyable than I thought and then they kind of slowly

22:02

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Pick more. Pick last. it's

24:39

that easy. And. What about

24:41

the people who would say that? And.

24:43

I think there's some fairness in this criticism.

24:45

Maybe I've heard it so frequently that there

24:47

must be some justification for it. Although I

24:50

don't know what it is. What about the

24:52

people who would think that there's nothing that

24:54

the past has to teach us? and as

24:56

far as the classics are concerned, because it's

24:59

so far removed and attached from the realities

25:01

of today? I think one of the criticisms

25:03

I hear a lot as it is: it's

25:05

a bunch of dead. Like white men. And

25:08

what do dead white men know about the

25:10

struggles and difficulties the face? A lot of

25:12

people. Regardless of what sex or

25:14

or nationality or race they are today, do

25:16

you have a response to that sort of

25:19

criticism? At sure I feel like this

25:21

to protect their that? maybe? To

25:23

require different responses? Yes please!

25:25

Cell. Any one thing as

25:28

shy as when it comes

25:30

to like the dead white

25:32

guy category an Ancient World

25:34

is extremely diverse and that

25:36

kind of categorization doesn't set

25:39

on your has all sorts

25:41

Us census, the characters from

25:43

all over at all different

25:45

backgrounds and Ancient World said

25:47

it as you as I

25:50

feel pain and a close

25:52

any in it sequel to

25:54

the Area like you. Have

25:56

these amazing characters on that

25:58

come from all. Summer and in

26:00

a we have. Roman emperors

26:03

who is we're not completely

26:05

blackwood, were definitely of color

26:07

like you have see mail

26:09

philosophers, yes, email poets and

26:11

mean in many ways the

26:13

Bronze Age was much more

26:15

equal than than the Classical

26:17

A Cyclone. History is not

26:19

straight line and even in

26:21

the Ancient Greek world they

26:24

the their number one most

26:26

popular myth was of the

26:28

Amazonian women like this. Since

26:30

the in a horse culture

26:32

women. That ruled. There's and

26:34

number one depicted images on

26:36

their vases. Like so in

26:38

the ancient world, you know

26:40

they held up their female

26:42

goddesses. They took in an

26:44

exotic gods from various countries

26:46

and cultures. a diagnosis was

26:48

not originally Greek. They absorb

26:50

the cultures from from the

26:52

east and from Egypt in

26:54

Africa. So. It's not

26:56

diverse and in his heart felt

26:59

that it is very diverse is

27:01

not just have a monolithic group

27:03

of people and sometimes I think

27:05

since the tragedy that the paint

27:08

has worn off all the statues

27:10

has sort of cemented in people's

27:12

image of this sort of monolithic

27:14

white guy categorization and when just

27:16

the reality is is very far.

27:19

From that known, the Renaissance didn't help with

27:21

their civic know. But

27:23

where mean we know that a

27:25

selfless a slave probably at the

27:27

T this was a slave you

27:29

know people would go in and

27:31

as a real the time like

27:34

they were dealing often with kind

27:36

of the extremes of human experience

27:38

as that would give them the

27:40

inside the that so many of

27:42

these. Thinkers. And philosophers

27:44

did experience slavery, but

27:46

also. They. Experienced.

27:49

universal, timeless issues like.

27:53

Mourning the death of the

27:55

family members and loved ones.

27:57

I mean Cicero Road a

27:59

whole Treaties after his daughter

28:01

died in China. That makes

28:03

you know people experienced plague

28:05

disease. they experienced works and

28:07

so a lot of these

28:09

fundamental questions are chess. Deeply.

28:11

Universal Arm. How do we

28:13

be? Better. People had we be

28:16

a good friend. You. Know how do

28:18

these? A better member of your. Community.

28:21

Ah, how do you. How. Do

28:23

we understand our relationship as individuals to

28:25

our government? Our society? Like There is

28:27

no reason this belongs as a question

28:30

to one group of people at one

28:32

period of time. Like people all over

28:34

the world are asking these questions and

28:36

these guys came up with some solutions

28:38

they're worth reading along with other. Philosophers.

28:41

In a while ago was you just

28:43

said is because I'm still waiting because

28:45

I spent all my time in the

28:47

Stoicism space. One of the things that

28:49

I find really attractive about stoicism and

28:51

this must be true of a lot

28:53

of other ancient philosophy is Greek or

28:55

otherwise is the today. It seems like

28:57

we're always trying to find the objective

28:59

six to a problem broadly and it

29:01

feels like and this is especially true

29:03

in Stoicism that they were instead trying

29:05

to figure out as you said, how

29:07

to be a good friend. I think

29:09

today people think there's one objective way

29:11

to be a good friend, but I

29:13

think if you go back and you

29:15

look at the age of literature, it's

29:17

know there is a way of thinking

29:19

and approaching the world's that is different

29:21

for each and every individual's highly contextual

29:24

and if you could master that way

29:26

of thinking, you can know how to

29:28

be a good friend to person A

29:30

and person be and person see because

29:32

of course be a good friend. A

29:34

different people for different people has somewhat

29:36

differently, but today it doesn't seem like

29:38

we do that which to me feels

29:40

like the biggest. Travesty of us not thinking

29:42

like this anymore. You have thoughts on added.

29:44

You feel the same way sometimes. Well

29:46

as a way where we're kind

29:48

of a quick six. Culture in

29:51

says it is as the one

29:53

a sister and there's a lot

29:55

of insights. To. These cells

29:57

ask questions that arise any.

30:00

The language. So. One thing that

30:02

I think it's always fascinating just sets up

30:04

a friendship. Is. It's ancient Greeks

30:06

had many different words for different types

30:08

of friends. I mean Aristotle This out.

30:11

These. Different types of friendships and how you

30:13

interact in them. Going to be different

30:16

based on the type of friendship you

30:18

have. like your friendship with a long

30:20

life, best friend isn't different. Have a

30:22

friendship and the friendship you have at

30:24

work and even understanding and appreciate those

30:26

differences is very important. Same with love.

30:28

You know they had almost thirty different

30:30

words. For. Love with we've got one word

30:32

and like we use it for a lifelong partner

30:34

and for don't us you know he likes come

30:36

on his get a real of him or New

30:39

Months. In. Other to be fair to be. Here

30:42

is t two point is

30:44

think one of the stages

30:46

elements about studying philosophy and

30:48

history is just even asking

30:50

the question the first place.

30:53

And I think a lot of people. You. Know

30:55

get sucked up in their daily lives and

30:57

and like that on know different don't I

30:59

mean there's there's you wake up like a

31:02

cat that if I gotta get this stuff

31:04

ready and ago the grocery shopping and leading

31:06

enough you know, vegetables and never enough water

31:08

and like getting my stepson and you know.

31:10

oh have I done enough reading and you

31:12

know we we get really bogged down with

31:15

these. Little. Questions that

31:17

we sometimes don't. Take a step back

31:19

and just go for a walk and

31:21

look at trees and thing. Is

31:24

good. Like. What

31:27

makes a good friends? Am I being a good friend?

31:29

How of a better friend in. It's also and

31:31

seem to the degree the brain doing so

31:33

much you just need you know we're doing

31:35

her stepson. we're going to work for me

31:37

to see receiving up with a suit social

31:39

friends who both the end of the day

31:41

especially when I would maximize. oh I do

31:43

for living says podcast and sometimes I look

31:46

back on my day and I'm like what

31:48

the hell did I do today That was

31:50

worth anything if if it's not one of

31:52

the days and publishing an episode of this

31:54

is what would I do Why wasn't I

31:56

read to restart the news? why didn't I

31:58

read that But it's and feel. Possible

32:00

to make time for something as seemingly arduous

32:02

and intellectual as I'm going to stop and

32:04

read? Ever stop. And it is. Do you

32:06

have any suggestions for people who I mean

32:08

other than the obvious? Just choose to do

32:11

it. Is there something that you've been able

32:13

to do in your own life To turn

32:15

out? shut the screens off a little bit

32:17

more frequently and spend some deep attention and

32:19

deep time on the stuff that you think

32:21

really matters a lot more. I mean, I

32:23

think that's an excellent question, and l

32:26

I'm a work in progress like everybody

32:28

else. As I mean, it's ah, I

32:30

definitely battle with it as well, and

32:32

you know it's sustaining that is. Moving

32:35

back to it's has anything to

32:37

back to pre. Screened.

32:39

Times like I say only had data

32:41

on my phone. It's a years ago

32:44

and. As I mean I

32:46

can see it's effect on my mind

32:48

emulating, genuinely see it as I guess

32:50

I have the advantage of having an

32:52

eight year old daughter who gets annoyed

32:54

every time I get on my cell

32:56

and south I literally have something like

32:58

a experts at the recent have children.

33:00

As for nothing, But

33:03

yes and been trying to avoid the screens. We

33:06

really when you look at your screen time it

33:08

in the week. I mean there's your answer as

33:10

how much he is and. I

33:12

think the important thing to remember and

33:14

this isn't an exact aristotle. Quote:

33:17

it was like tennis and

33:19

a rewritten of his words

33:21

at. Is dead You a

33:23

excellence. Is a habit. If

33:25

he has to change habits, And.

33:28

It's. It's a little daily

33:31

says he do every day and you

33:33

know I say to my daughter a.

33:36

Player: Violent only for five minutes every

33:38

day. Just started on Five minutes is

33:40

isn't it sea bubble amount of time

33:42

for anybody to. Start. Doing

33:44

it that nights or and when are we

33:46

just five minutes events. but the seventies are

33:48

doing it. You obviously do it for longer

33:50

so if is a long as you and

33:52

lot five minutes in your mind you'll find

33:54

twenty minutes he didn't know you has. Yes,

33:57

it is funny witnesses so it's a trick. you

33:59

have to. The on yourself because when

34:01

you interact or not to pick on

34:03

Tic Toc in particular, like I'm not

34:05

trying to make a political statement as

34:07

the first social media platform I came

34:09

to mind, there's this immediate gratification that

34:11

happens with engaging with Tic Toc. As

34:13

soon as you had start right a

34:15

specific open the app he starts growing

34:17

you're getting says you're getting some sort

34:19

of a chemical response that is amazing

34:21

and it's quick Whereas playing the violin

34:23

or reading a book you have to

34:26

get to the point where something clicks

34:28

and then you get that dopa mean.

34:30

Hit or whatever it is and it

34:32

is. A lot of people say social

34:34

media and these sorts since instant gratification

34:36

things are like. In addition, and until

34:38

recently I don't know that I really

34:40

agreed with that. I thought that was

34:42

being humorous stick but the older I

34:45

get em the more difficult it becomes

34:47

Even for me as a grown person

34:49

who does care about these things, to

34:51

spend an hour doing something that doesn't

34:53

provide instant gratification and to instead choose

34:55

to spend that time doing something that

34:57

does. I think it is very much.

35:00

Like an addiction and it and it's a

35:02

difficult one to do anything about because I

35:04

don't think people view is one really but

35:06

I don't think it exists in the Dsm

35:08

as like an actual addicts and right that

35:10

this treatment for may or may be a

35:12

will soon as. There is accepting

35:14

as like clinics and as at

35:16

like Japan and how hello this

35:18

is like that's settled, Sandler half

35:20

a dozen tell and. Gonna bring

35:22

that some of that stuff. West

35:25

Macys? Yes. I think setting

35:27

even ideas addiction. And I've

35:29

our brains are and needed a

35:31

rewarded and alleys and fair assessment.

35:33

Access doesn't really and. Another.

35:36

Important topic that I also would enjoy

35:38

eating about at length to the artists

35:40

are but maybe this step at a

35:42

little off an off the course here

35:44

up one of the biggest things I

35:46

think that is. Need. To

35:49

sometimes. Take. A step back

35:51

and see the forcing. the truth. And.

35:53

As as I always say, one

35:55

things I love that Sony and

35:57

such as I like Limit or.

36:00

There's a like moments of.

36:02

Rich war where we step. Back and like,

36:04

write down your goals for the year and

36:06

all that kinda stuff. We sometimes have to

36:08

be reminded to do that and as and

36:10

and as valuable when we do. In

36:12

part because when you're doing how

36:15

you spend your time, you it's

36:17

rather than see giving up something

36:19

as like the lack of doing

36:21

something. It's the opposite way if

36:23

you think about it as in

36:25

you're. Putting. Instead time in a

36:27

long. Term Goal: It's more important. And

36:29

on of I'm articulating that very well. but if

36:31

rinses you say like yeah I'm one of the

36:33

i want to read. Some. Of the

36:35

original text of. Plato. And Aristotle or

36:38

whatever. And that's gonna take me a lot of

36:40

time like I need to devote some time to. It's

36:42

everything we will get. Sick talk. It's not like oh,

36:44

and that has denied myself that I've got a higher

36:46

goal. Of better. Go. It's gonna

36:48

make me happier longer term. Or

36:51

started with that because I recently. I

36:53

mean, I recently had a silly because

36:55

I moved across the Atlantic, but I've

36:57

had not to prior to that move.

36:59

Just acquired the entire fifty two volume

37:01

collection of the great works of Western

37:03

literature and I was like seven. Read

37:06

these and I got to like volumes

37:08

three and I couldn't I was like,

37:10

now, this isn't fun. Fun

37:12

so I don't want to do it. And it's

37:14

It's a severe struggle. That's. Was

37:17

Ransom. Where is all about is

37:19

psychological pressure? Ran somewhere when you're

37:21

computers have didn't you and your

37:23

data held. Ransom attacks are on

37:25

the rise and lesson gangs are

37:27

making. Billions. Of dollars. The

37:29

moment a message or do greatest fears

37:32

that we ever have our sons come

37:34

through the post Cold War era is

37:36

over. Dot Com The Hoskins a

37:38

new season from Crowd Networks with

37:40

me Katie hundred to search for.com

37:42

A. D O T C O

37:45

N Unsubscribed. Maybe.

37:47

That's actually good. segue to one of the

37:49

other things that we wanted to talk about

37:51

to the which is maybe it's too late

37:53

for us, if maybe if you're over to

37:56

on a your doom this is just the

37:58

reality. But some of us are. My

38:00

son is coming into the world this

38:02

April and it's the first. Could have

38:04

never had slime. One of the things

38:06

I'm most eager about, although there's plenty

38:08

of diapers and less important things to

38:10

do until I get to this point

38:13

is helping them to become like the

38:15

person I wish every young person was

38:17

right and helping kids to be better

38:19

than my generation and the one immediately

38:21

prior, not immediately after seem to be

38:23

shaping up to be. And you have

38:25

I mentioned it at the outset that

38:27

you notice of Classical with them.com you

38:30

have. Classical Kids is it also

38:32

is a Classical kids.com. At

38:34

for assessing class the results as an

38:36

accent just sleep and is it possible

38:38

to. That. Is a

38:41

Type A testament intense at it

38:43

as I think there is a

38:45

little confusion for some people that

38:47

flightless, classless, and out with classes

38:49

and kids That, as it turns

38:51

out, a lot of the lessons

38:53

apply for children and adults. S:

38:55

As As Actually, it's funny that

38:58

your question is a perfect example

39:00

of that. and I've been recently

39:02

preparing for an ad to do

39:04

a talk at that say to

39:06

Academies Next As and I'm Philosophy

39:08

Insurgents and As Paddling. My talk

39:10

on? I don't know. Like

39:13

laying the foundation, selecting and this

39:15

kind of it. Applies. Directly

39:18

to your less. Sentiment.

39:20

Which is. It's. Important

39:22

to remember that we. Don't.

39:25

Have six minds you still can

39:27

learn. Yeah, you totally can. Now

39:29

it's too late. Now it out.

39:31

Us. I mean I have met so

39:33

many wonderful people over the years so

39:35

some classics and fluffy late and lights

39:38

and has just a whole new lease

39:40

on life. Ah you know I've actually

39:42

it's my mother has a woman and

39:44

as a condo and will my mother

39:46

wrote like center Christmas letter my that

39:48

it as in a classical is it's

39:51

this woman gonna she said she has

39:53

become a full. Intense.

39:55

Like every is that everything and she said

39:57

there was the best Christmas ever read it

39:59

says. If I'm gonna eighties. She.

40:01

Is thrilled to be introduced

40:04

to the classics. Now.

40:06

In her eighties I have met many people

40:08

who have done that and. The

40:10

first step is realizing your

40:12

mind is still pliable he

40:14

he use and still grow

40:17

and learn and. You can

40:19

take baby steps. You don't have to go

40:21

straight into reading aerosol straight. Aristotle is not

40:23

fun to read straight. He. Isn't

40:25

it's okay to know that like

40:27

that where? That's why we do

40:29

articles we do events with. We

40:32

give different ways to engage with

40:34

these ideas rather than just sitting

40:36

down. And reading. Maybe

40:38

perhaps the boring and not very. Good translation.

40:41

We even have it. This.

40:43

Anthology as well. That's get like extract from

40:45

all the important ones he contended. Get a

40:47

taste and then see which one you like

40:49

the best. We have limited time, you don't

40:52

have to read everything. So for children. Think

40:55

one of the beauties of kids

40:57

is that. They're. Okay with

40:59

this Acevedo know everything yet. You.

41:01

Know that that they're okay with

41:03

being uncomfortable with not being knowledgeable.

41:06

Because. That's. How

41:08

They learn. That's how we all learn. And

41:10

I sometimes find a problematic when I meet

41:13

kids. And I mean I see every single

41:15

kid has said this. Mine. Included:

41:17

Legal, I know, Alana. In

41:20

there are no he really don't really

41:22

don't know of and to then I

41:24

start telling the story about Socrates. And

41:27

his you know getting the oracle from Dell

41:29

see that he is a wise man and

41:31

a going around and testing and he doesn't

41:34

say i know that I know nothing Socrates

41:36

and smart guy who know that he knows

41:38

a lot of thing he says i don't

41:40

claim to know that which I do not

41:42

know. So. The ability

41:44

for us to know when we don't

41:47

know something is absolutely critical and seen

41:49

it is all sorts of sense. As

41:51

sick as charts this show, this sort

41:54

of this path of despair. Could we

41:56

always think we're much more knowledgeable than

41:58

we are in. So many topics and

42:01

and this is a common trait that we

42:03

all have on works. And then when we

42:05

realized we don't know. We. Can to go

42:07

to this valley of despair and and midst of

42:09

build up our knowledge again and thing. I.

42:11

Think it's really critical for children

42:13

to embrace that led. They don't

42:15

know, because that's what makes them

42:18

receptive to learning. And I think

42:20

as we get older, The more

42:22

we. Lose that ability. The. Less

42:24

we can learn. So when we open our minds

42:26

again and realized wait a second I don't know

42:28

like it's okay for me to say i don't

42:30

know, it's all right, like I've gotta be comfortable.

42:33

With. Not knowing. And it's when you're reading

42:35

something that's beyond your level. For instance, the

42:37

first time you read it, you might not

42:40

know what's going on, but insists keep reading.

42:42

And it was just a guard who said.

42:45

He. Wanted for us as he to be read

42:47

by by everybody. and is it just even if

42:49

you don't get it to keep going and the

42:51

media guess it's a case you don't know sex

42:53

with that except that. And when you go with the

42:55

pt are you don't really spend time. Together

42:58

Skied. Overjoyed. Or now I know because the

43:00

Google is known for to I work for

43:02

You said about kids Not be afraid that

43:04

they don't know things. I would go as

43:06

far as to say that the don't know,

43:09

they don't know, they just don't know the

43:11

feel, the feeling of seem of not knowing.

43:13

It's not possible for them to be ashamed

43:15

of not knowing the answer to something because

43:17

they're in this, at least for some amount

43:20

of time I would assume absurd, absurd changes

43:22

because they get a teenage years that is.

43:24

Probably changed but they only view everything. is

43:26

this exciting new piece of information that they

43:28

never heard him. I don't. I would imagine

43:30

that until they started and punished for not

43:32

knowing something from. Maybe that doesn't Maybe we

43:34

just need to stop the singer. it's it's

43:36

for not knowing things and maybe that love

43:38

of learning will never stop. Well as

43:40

a good as an interesting insight and

43:42

that allow my take us into the

43:45

whole structure of education as next the

43:47

next big. Topic. For similar kids substances

43:49

six that sex with We'll see if it

43:51

sticks around. Well. Let's instead

43:53

of I guess come back to

43:55

let him Which I do with

43:57

Class Kids is to introduce kids.

44:00

The only to the ideas about

44:02

how to think about the world.

44:04

To think critically, To think philosophically.

44:06

I don't think asking a child

44:08

what makes a good friend is

44:10

a great question. It's a great

44:13

conversation to have over dinner and

44:15

it's an important one. And so

44:17

I think introducing the loving philosophical

44:19

ideas. It's it's fine. it's

44:21

fine Has their insights are great

44:23

legacy. It's a great subject but

44:25

on. But. From the history

44:28

and and language and mythology

44:30

standpoint. He said

44:32

it opens up it seem. To

44:35

again a vast wealth of knowledge

44:37

that even a lot of adults

44:39

don't realize. And and that's again,

44:41

to go back to the toolbox.

44:43

an analogy. These are the fundamental

44:46

tools that up until the nineteenth

44:48

century, you could not be considered

44:50

an educated person if you did

44:52

not know these. Classical.

44:54

References So when you're reading literature

44:57

and you're going to museums, you

44:59

will this so riddled with this

45:01

class for references that if you

45:03

don't know them, you're getting your

45:06

know getting. To enjoy a whole.

45:08

Layer of depth of knowledge and so

45:10

I'd take my daughter to to museum.

45:13

She gets excited because it as oh

45:15

oh that's that's the judgment of Paris.

45:18

Like. She knows that the. The.

45:21

Paintings are about. And so they're

45:23

fun stories, not that hard to tell. scamming

45:25

how many parents here? They tell me a

45:27

story, Tell me a story. I can't think

45:29

of them all. it's great and got a

45:31

whole book, a story that to tell her

45:33

and then later on she's reading Nikkei as

45:35

and Point and her. And

45:38

she says Yes! Of course I know who, Apollo

45:40

and and Isis. Is so maybe the key

45:42

to people eventually not feeling that the

45:44

valley you mention the valley of despair

45:47

or see maybe the way that we

45:49

keep that is showers possible to to

45:51

just introduce people as as young needs

45:54

as possible. These really. Says

45:56

to see the store fluency.

45:58

fundamentals assist these things. The

46:00

familiarize them with things that will make no

46:02

sense to the man that are. They can

46:04

seep in their memory as they age. That

46:07

might help them to feel more comfortable in

46:09

a museum, for they would if they'd never

46:11

heard that word. And the thing that I

46:13

thought of when you were saying that was

46:16

how much of a role Calvin and Hobbes

46:18

and The Adventures of Tintin played in me

46:20

having a good vocabulary and being able to

46:22

connect references as I became a teenager and

46:25

someone in my twenties. They don't think if

46:27

I hadn't had this large vocabulary. words in

46:29

those. Historical references that I didn't really fully

46:31

understand as a kid then. I don't think

46:34

I could have ever come to appreciate those

46:36

things I learned later like they were foundational

46:38

before, they were useful to them. a sense.

46:40

Hundred percent an eye on it seems.

46:42

Calvin and Hobbes Ansell definitely respect and

46:45

know I sent them into disease ideas.

46:47

I just know that later on in

46:49

life and not intimidated and I do

46:51

when it has made a point that

46:54

like they want just one. Ancient

46:56

History to indulge me A one.

46:58

Set of Philosophy is I've personally

47:01

know a lot about. That. That

47:03

the classical world that lights are families.

47:05

In original Norwegian, we grew up with Norse. Mythology.

47:08

My mother said he endured you

47:10

in college, so we'll is that

47:12

a lot of Indian mythology. I

47:14

lived in Mexico. I I love

47:16

like setting as tax and dined

47:18

and the ain't as a you

47:20

don't need to pick one history

47:22

or one time period. but the

47:24

sheer act of engaging with history

47:27

and philosophy is critical. It opens

47:29

up. A whole way of

47:31

perspective of thinking about your moderation.

47:33

So the classical. World and the

47:36

Greco Roman. Is. More

47:38

impactful, On subsequent.

47:41

And Medieval Renaissance enlightenment philosophies and

47:44

literature course South As if those

47:46

is gonna be they periods that

47:48

you're most interested in. like you

47:50

want to have a fundamental understanding

47:52

of those. Let's just say like

47:54

it's the act as learning from

47:56

the past and thinking about engaging

47:58

with great out. Yeah, that's

48:01

fundamental. And I'll give a resource to

48:03

some people who are with I don't know

48:05

if you know this about me idea but

48:07

I used to host a podcast called Legends

48:09

Missing Whiskey years ago and I would delve

48:11

into these old forgotten folklore and photo mythology

48:13

or that nobody seat the it doesn't get

48:15

popular as we get the Norse mythology of

48:17

get the Greek mythology and that is almost

48:19

the extent to which we have any popularized

48:21

miss. Maybe get some of the Japanese stuff

48:24

to inanimate and other things, but we'd we

48:26

don't hear a lot about African mythology. We'll

48:28

hear a lot about care of Indian mythology.

48:30

Know, hear a lot about Hope. He mythology

48:32

resit. but but those things exist there.

48:34

Those things are catalogs and one of

48:36

the places you can find them is

48:38

Sacred das tax.com They have a huge

48:40

library of like all the stuff that

48:42

you know is common in you can

48:44

easily find to a bunch of stuff

48:47

that is really uncommon like like myths

48:49

and legends from Taiwanese culture. Was was

48:51

one that I remember was really cool

48:53

about the dragon eight, the sun and

48:55

the moon and then they far. I

48:57

can remember the exact story but that's

48:59

a great resource. Do you have resources?

49:01

On a I'm as you must have a ton funny. S

49:04

has everything online me like what

49:06

I love in went where can

49:08

have added travelers sell an attorney

49:10

like learning about different things I

49:12

never wear and the country and

49:14

the cool thing is is that.

49:17

Just. Local Miss you find like

49:19

a lot of. Recurring.

49:22

Themes and ideas and etti Recently we

49:24

were in Georgia in the country and

49:26

Armenia and I was like I was

49:28

surprised by how many of like the

49:30

meaning old Nes in Georgia like and

49:32

it had similar Greek themes and similar

49:35

viking theme south and I mean. For.

49:37

Me, it's just just getting to. Know each

49:39

country and culture as best he can.

49:41

You mention of having a lot of

49:43

teams each you've probably heard of. Joseph

49:45

Campbell in Zero was a Thousand Faces

49:47

and how like it's the same here

49:49

story no matter what. The more you

49:51

read mythology and folklore the more you

49:53

will realize that there is literally telling

49:55

the same exact stories with a different

49:57

cast of characters and was slight nuance

49:59

differences. And it one of the reasons I

50:01

said. The

52:00

vowels and it's all about.

52:02

How anxiety has then treated

52:05

by philosophy throughout the history

52:07

and A we have included

52:09

a gallon expert as well.

52:11

If a woman who simultaneously

52:13

did her Phd in classics

52:15

at Harvard weldon her M

52:18

D and Harvard the she's

52:20

Gotta Interesting insights and severe

52:22

Chopra as well as Michael

52:24

Fontaine and at Cornell So.

52:27

We're. Going to be really

52:29

interesting way to look. We're bringing

52:31

stoicism but was bringing Galen's inset

52:33

for medical perspective. Will get different

52:35

cells article traditions in the ancient

52:37

world like and anxiety is something

52:39

we all. Deal. With at some

52:41

point in our life. The great thing about

52:43

philosophy is if you study it, we need

52:46

it. But. Also, you

52:48

need a steady it before you need

52:50

it because a lotta times you going

52:52

to be a difficult situation and if

52:55

he stays beforehand, you're prepared. Whether it's

52:57

grieve for trauma or are good things

52:59

to lead to a high level of

53:01

success. Having it beforehand is pretty critical.

53:03

For said a number of times the it's

53:06

not the stoicism consoles trauma but being familiar

53:08

with stores I'd use can act as a

53:10

barrier if he together in place before trauma

53:12

presents itself to you. makes you a little

53:15

bit more resilient, even the resilience. He's not

53:17

the point of stoicism and only by you

53:19

think? I just went back on things I

53:21

just spent a month convince the you was

53:23

in the case but it is definitely a

53:26

side effect of practicing the philosophy. Probably not

53:28

just this. One. Net debt? Well

53:30

certainly certainly. and I think even

53:32

just ah, engaging with the idea

53:34

that people has. Had the

53:36

same. Problems and struggles for thousands of

53:39

years. And it's reassuring to

53:41

see misery loves company. But as just

53:43

you know that we would have all

53:45

in this together like none of us

53:47

are going to. Be. Excused from

53:50

dealing the something difficult and our

53:52

lives so the more resources and

53:54

and can support. We have the better

53:56

world. Her name is on you entered. She's

53:58

amazing. She runs Glasgow Wisdom. Then you should

54:00

check it out. Subscribed to run as Freedom

54:03

Center which is incredible given all the value

54:05

that it provides. Check out some of the

54:07

courses at courses.classical isn't.com All of these links

54:09

for be In Today show notes and until

54:12

next time for thirteen sick.