0:00

Hey, before this episode starts, I want to

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let you know that we're launching an iOS

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launch day. Again, that's actualstoicism.com. Thanks.

0:20

Do you remember when I told

0:23

you, I don't know, probably

0:25

a month ago now that Donald Robertson would

0:27

come back to talk about part three of

0:29

Ego in stoicism? Remember when I said that?

0:32

Well, that was supposed to happen in today's

0:34

episode, but Donald has a new book

0:36

out. And as often happens when Donald

0:38

and I get on the phone together

0:40

or the video call as it happened,

0:42

we have a tendency to talk about

0:44

anything and everything other than the thing

0:46

we showed up to talk about. And

0:48

this time was no exception. So we

0:50

wound up talking a bit about his

0:52

new book, Marcus Aurelius, the Stoic Emperor,

0:55

and also about some other stuff that

0:57

I think you'll just enjoy hearing, but

0:59

isn't on the topic of Ego. Of

1:01

course, Donald has agreed to come back

1:03

sometime later in February to talk about

1:05

Ego and we'll actually do that this

1:07

time. But today is a bit of

1:09

a Donald Robertson grab bag. And I

1:11

know everybody likes the guy, so I

1:13

don't think there's anything wrong with a

1:15

random Donald Robertson grab bag. So that's

1:17

what you're going to hear today. Before

1:19

you hear that, however, I have to

1:21

do a little bit of housekeeping and

1:23

say thank you to a bunch of

1:25

new patrons who have joined since Monday.

1:28

Thank you to DC, just DC, maybe

1:30

that's the whole of Washington DC, who

1:32

knows? Larry G. Heibel, or Heebel, and

1:34

I'm sorry if I've said that

1:36

wrong, Larry, to Colleen Struss,

1:38

to Andrew Campbell, no relation,

1:42

Jason Montaroso, TJ Gengler, or

1:44

Jen-gler, sorry TJ. I bet

1:46

people say it wrong all

1:48

the time and I'm just

1:50

one of those people now.

1:52

Sorry, man. Chris Welch and

1:55

Sean Wagner, who I assume is

1:57

from the great country of Canada.

2:00

there is a maple leaf in his avatar. You'll

2:30

get a nice little shout out like these

2:32

eight folks just did. You'll get access to

2:34

an ad-free version of the podcast and you'll

2:36

get access to things that I do behind

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the scenes. For example, hosting private interviews within

2:41

our Discord community, which you'll also get access

2:43

to. And that's it. We'll hear

2:45

from two sponsors now and I'll be

2:47

back with Donald Robertson, author of the

2:50

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everyone, welcome back. I am joined by

5:58

fan favorite Donald Roberts. Hi Donald,

6:00

how are you? I'm fantastic. I'm the

6:03

richest man in the world, Turner. I'm

6:05

the sage, you're the sage. I'm

6:08

the richest and wealthiest man in the world. Because

6:10

I have more than I need, which

6:12

is how Antestines, yeah, and the

6:15

Stoics define wealth. So I'm doing

6:17

pretty well. And there's not

6:19

a blood out side, so that's good. That is good,

6:21

considering you live in the far north. You

6:24

also have a brand new baby. I've got a

6:26

brand spanking new baby, and you're going to have

6:28

a brand new book. I've got a brand new

6:30

book, and two, like, oh, one and a half

6:32

new books. I've got another book coming out later.

6:35

But then I've got this book. Are

6:37

we doing video? I don't even know, but there's a book. No,

6:39

we're not doing video, but it's a book. Marcus Aurelius, the

6:41

Stoic owner. Hang on a minute. And it's a

6:44

bio on the man himself. I'm flicking the

6:46

page. You can hear the book. Yeah, this

6:48

is great. My high pass filter will love

6:50

you for that. Yeah, it's a

6:52

kind of auditory aid. It's called

6:55

Marcus Aurelius, the Stoic emperor. The clue's in

6:57

the name. It's about Seneca.

6:59

It's about Seneca, actually. No,

7:01

it's about Marcus Aurelius and how he's

7:03

a Stoic emperor. I'm pretty literal when

7:05

it comes to time. It's

7:08

40 pages. You know, here's a side, right? When

7:11

I first started writing about some

7:13

of these things, like, I

7:15

read all, you know how some people say they

7:17

do read reviews and stuff? I meticulously read reviews

7:20

because I really believe in feedback. And all through

7:22

my career, I've gathered thousands and thousands of bits

7:24

of feedback from all the training that I used

7:26

to deliver on conferences and stuff. And one of

7:28

the things I noticed was there'd be people that

7:31

would say, sometimes people say things that kind of

7:33

be used me. And one of them is there's

7:36

a bunch of people that will say, but we

7:38

don't know anything about Marcus Aurelius. And

7:40

actually, the opposite is the truth. Of course,

7:43

there's gaps in our knowledge when it comes

7:45

to ancient history and the sources are unreliable.

7:47

All that kind of stuff kind of goes

7:49

without saying, but I guess we have to

7:51

emphasize it. We know more about Marcus Aurelius

7:53

than we do about virtually

7:55

any other ancient philosopher. One day I need to actually

7:57

go and check this. I keep saying it on pause.

7:59

tests but it may well be that we know more

8:01

about them than any other ancient philosopher.

8:04

I mean Epictetus we don't even know what

8:06

he looked like you know

8:08

there's lots of famous philosophers that

8:10

we know very little about their

8:12

lives Marcus Aurelius

8:15

happens to have been what I technically

8:17

refer to as a big deal back

8:19

in the day so of course we

8:21

have several histories of his reign we

8:23

have a private cache of letters that

8:26

belong to him we have inscriptions

8:28

and numismatic or evidence

8:30

or evidence from coins relating to

8:33

his reign like we've got

8:35

a little wealth of evidence about

8:37

his life and actions and

8:40

we even see what he looked like at

8:42

different points in his life we've got young

8:44

Marcus we've got old Marcus you know we

8:46

know quite a lot about his

8:49

as to the people he associated with all

8:51

right we know a bit about the people

8:53

here so we know quite a lot about

8:55

Hadrian and Antoninus Pius so that kind of

8:57

even provides us with some context for his

8:59

life so yeah people we I

9:01

think there are still a lot of people though

9:03

maybe that surprised him which we know about Marcus

9:06

Aurelius. Do you think that in the book

9:08

there's anything that you reveal that is

9:10

really gonna shock a lot of people

9:12

that is just not I mean yeah you

9:15

and I were talking a bit before I hit

9:17

record and we were talking about the process of

9:20

making sure everything in this book was correct you

9:22

published it through Yale University Press they're gonna definitely

9:24

put you through the ringer to make sure you're

9:26

not saying anything wrong and of course you do

9:28

your own great research. Do you

9:31

think anything comes up in this book that people

9:33

are just gonna jaw drop when they read? Well

9:35

it's easy for me to do the research because

9:37

I'm in the fortunate position of knowing

9:40

a lot of people over the exa I'm old

9:42

that helps I was thinking I always think I

9:44

helped. It does help to be old. I also

9:46

be old. In some ways. Yeah so I know

9:48

a bunch of people and

9:50

I have a very good friend called Lalia Lloyd

9:53

who lives in Athens and she's

9:56

a classicist she teaches

9:58

Greek and Latin And

10:00

Salalia helps me verify a lot

10:03

of the information. Now I've got

10:05

other people that I

10:07

get information from. And also Yale have a

10:10

very rigorous process. What would surprise people? I mean,

10:12

there's levels, right? So there's people that probably know

10:14

a bit about Marcus Aurelius and maybe read some

10:17

stuff about him. And then they're not going to

10:19

be surprised by 90% of it. But

10:22

then there's people that know zero about Marcus

10:24

Aurelius. So there's trivial things like Marcus Aurelius

10:27

was led a dance trip. Like,

10:29

he did. Did he really? Yeah,

10:32

he was super into dancing. He was

10:34

kind of obsessed with it, I think,

10:36

for a long time. And he was

10:38

apparently he was really good at playing

10:40

a kind of rugby

10:42

like ball game. You

10:44

know, the stuff like that. He read

10:46

that he led a dance trip called

10:48

the College of the Saliae or

10:51

the Leaping Priests. I mean, if you can

10:53

imagine, you know, in the right, but slight

10:55

detour in the ancient world. Most

10:58

young men were supposed to be ready

11:01

for military service. Sure. And

11:03

one of the ways they prepared for

11:05

that is everything's more integrated in their

11:07

culture, right? So you go as

11:09

a young man, you learn to wrestle and

11:12

do pancotti and then boxing. And you

11:14

do these other athletic sports that are

11:16

kind of very traditional, but they also

11:18

tie into military service and the ancient

11:21

world. But so did they have these

11:23

martial dances in the ancient Greece, ancient

11:25

Rome. And the best thing I can

11:27

think to compare them to is a

11:29

little bit like kata or forms in

11:33

martial arts today and Japanese martial arts.

11:35

So you would do these highly stylized

11:38

leaps and thrusts with

11:40

spears and use a shield and

11:43

to flutes and drums. And this

11:45

was like a religious

11:47

thing. It was in honor

11:49

of the gods Mars, the god of war,

11:51

and it was meant as young men that

11:53

do it. And it's meant to keep them

11:56

fat and also to train them. I mean,

11:58

it's probably like a really stylized. of

12:01

some of the moves that you might make if you're

12:03

fighting with a shield and a spear.

12:05

But it's, yeah, he

12:07

did that. So it's not when I

12:09

say dancing, it wasn't like weird, it

12:11

wasn't kind of, you know, the tangle.

12:13

It wasn't like, you know, interpretative modern

12:16

dance or something. Like, you know, he

12:18

was doing something that was probably a

12:21

bit more like a kata in karate

12:24

drums and flutes, if you can

12:26

imagine that while chanting a weird

12:28

religious hymn about Mars. I,

12:30

of course, have read your graphic novel,

12:32

your excellent graphic novel. And so I

12:34

know that your understanding of Marcus Aurelius

12:36

as a character from history goes all

12:39

the way back to his childhood. Do

12:41

you feel like this book goes even

12:43

deeper than you were able to go

12:45

in that graphic novel? The graphic novel

12:47

was quite in depth. I was I

12:49

was surprised. It speaks to the credit

12:51

of what a good book it was.

12:53

I went I went to Cunntum for

12:56

a week. Like, did you really?

12:58

Yeah, I interviewed the archaeological director

13:00

at Cunntum and the manager of

13:03

the archaeological park. And we took

13:05

photographs of everything, the landscape. So

13:09

and I spent a lot of time

13:11

in Athens, like I spent a lot

13:13

of time in museums. So people maybe

13:15

have been, I mean, you could just

13:17

write a graphic novel, but Marcus Aurelius,

13:19

like we did some of the archaeological,

13:21

like some of the buildings, the furniture,

13:23

the sculptures, the clothing, the military uniforms,

13:25

informations, the landscapes. We researched. I

13:27

one day I'll show I the when

13:29

you're doing a project like that, if

13:32

you're doing it in that way, you send

13:34

the artist with what you call reference images,

13:36

right? So I can show panels in that

13:38

book. And I can show the photographs that

13:40

I took in museums that I sent to

13:43

Zae, the graphic designer. And I said, we

13:45

want this panel with this guy over the

13:47

shoulder shot, like, you know, another one from

13:49

a high angle. And then in the background,

13:51

there's something that kind of looks like this

13:53

building that I've photographed here in Athens. So

13:55

yeah, like we did a lot of and

13:57

a lot of historical research. The other thing

14:00

this, here's a bit trivia

14:02

for you, right? I went

14:04

through Marcus's letters from start

14:06

to finish and

14:08

picked out greetings,

14:12

oaths and other kind of incidental

14:15

pieces of speech, right? So

14:17

because letters and poetry actually

14:20

are a really good source

14:22

for informal speech, believe

14:24

it or not, right? So if you're writing a graphic

14:26

novel or you're making a movie, you might say, so

14:28

when Marcus meets Fronto, how does he actually greet him?

14:31

Like, what does he say? Hi, Fronto.

14:34

Hey, what does he say? Like, so he says he

14:36

tends to say at least in the letters and stuff,

14:38

he'll greet him as best of masters and things like

14:41

that. You think that's kind of weird. It's sort of

14:43

cool. Like, Fronto

14:45

refers to Marcus's mother. He greets her

14:47

in a letter as mother of Caesar.

14:49

So they'll tend to swear, Marcus, if

14:52

I remember rightly, tends to swear by

14:54

Hercules. And then, you know, there's other

14:56

little quirks of language and stuff like

14:58

that. So we went scrutinized letters

15:00

and poems to pick out what we

15:03

thought would be authentic idioms to use

15:05

in informal speech in the

15:07

book and stuff like that. So we

15:09

did all that. I think it

15:11

made me a much better biographer,

15:13

because then I was able to...

15:15

Well, there's different types of biography,

15:17

right? There's a more academic style

15:19

of biography where you

15:22

look at it for a university professor would

15:24

be maybe more likely to write, where you

15:26

say, okay, this is all the evidence we've

15:28

got. And some of this evidence isn't reliable.

15:30

And there's like three different versions of what

15:32

happened here. And

15:34

this is how we know whether this... So there's

15:36

kind of a more analysis of the

15:39

value of different pieces of evidence. And

15:41

then there's a type of biography that's more written

15:43

in a narrative style that says, okay, like the

15:45

three different versions of this, we're just going to

15:48

pick one so that we can tell it

15:50

like a story. And

15:52

that's more engaging. It's a little bit more

15:54

like writing a movie screenplay or something like

15:56

that, you know, they're just different approaches to

15:58

doing the same thing. This is

16:00

a more narrative biography, so there's not

16:03

a lot of analysis in it. There's

16:05

some in the end notes and stuff,

16:07

but basically, you know, I'll try

16:09

to imagine what Marcus's life was actually

16:12

like based on the evidence that we

16:14

have. And, you

16:17

know, other things that... I'll tell you

16:19

something that emerges. And this is controversial,

16:21

right? There's an elephant in the room,

16:23

Tanner. It's the Big H,

16:26

always known as in the book, one of

16:28

the meditations, Marcus sits down and lists all

16:30

the people that he admires most as like,

16:32

if it's 17 people, they're

16:35

all family members or tutors, right?

16:38

But Romans were hypersensitive

16:40

to not mentioning people,

16:43

right? They call it Damnatio Memoriae, like,

16:45

it's a big deal, like

16:48

if you're left off the Christmas card

16:50

list, as it were. Sure, it's like

16:52

getting snubbed at the Oscars or something.

16:54

Yeah, the Romans are much more sensitive

16:56

to this. So you can ask, who

16:58

doesn't Marcus mention in book one of

17:00

the meditations? Well, the most obvious thing

17:02

it stands out for, so a thumb,

17:04

is if you say, who does he

17:07

say... They would also be sensitive to

17:09

how much you say about someone. So

17:11

easily, Antoninus Pius, he says way more

17:13

about than anyone else. He says very

17:15

little about Lucius Verus, so he absolutely

17:17

damps him with faint praise. He says

17:19

nothing about Hadrian. He says nada about

17:21

Hadrian. And yet he mentions Hadrian four

17:23

or five times in the rest of

17:25

the book. But only just to say,

17:27

gee, I think all those people were

17:30

really rich and powerful, and now they're

17:32

just like dust, like, you know, dust

17:34

in the wind. For example, hey, for

17:36

instance, that guy, Hadrian, right? Marcus knew

17:38

Hadrian. And that guy, I remember, like,

17:40

the internet is full of amateur historians,

17:43

and they're worse than philosophers, from

17:45

absolutely being convinced that, like,

17:48

they know better, Like, and

17:50

that you're absolutely wrong about. So This guy that

17:52

we've got really angry with, and he's like, Marcus

17:55

really is never new to Hadrian. And I'm like,

17:57

Marcus Lived in Hadrian's villa for about a long

17:59

time. That father to

18:01

Amazon, he he was

18:03

his adoptive at legally

18:06

his adoptive grandfather, Hadrian

18:08

absolutely engineered Marcus's an.

18:11

Education As a young man he choose

18:13

to a point and to various offices

18:15

he was growing up to prepare him

18:17

to be a future emperor of isn't

18:19

that he hadn't met at a range.

18:22

The answer minus with would make him

18:24

as his successor and any seven lifted

18:26

his villa for lakes and his but

18:28

for five months to was the the

18:31

end of Indians life. I'm so they

18:33

are. They're deaf and the families were

18:35

very closely connected like this. A I

18:37

mean is if you visualize it like

18:40

mocked has had to grandfather. He

18:42

has a great grandfather to be

18:44

specific, on his mother's side and

18:46

ah, a grandfather and his father's

18:48

side. That. We're both. If

18:51

I remember rightly the rugs consoles Sullivan

18:54

really really really seen your the most

18:56

senior members of the Santa Not reasonable.

18:58

The outlay hit him as a off

19:00

galvan thing around the world most the

19:03

time. So these guys with been the

19:05

most powerful politicians and room right and

19:07

and that he'd be as their their

19:10

weight. Running the Senate and

19:12

Hadrian's absence democracies family members like have

19:14

costs if you visualize this marked as

19:16

his family are really connected. way to

19:18

Hadrian's Rule By and they're also kind

19:21

of vying with Adrian for power and

19:23

a sense so he freely in the

19:25

sack over and on the political intrigue.

19:27

What's going on? One of the things

19:30

I would say that makes shop people

19:32

and the other person that Marcus doesn't

19:34

mention the meat we may be wouldn't

19:36

admit if we wouldn't expect some. Perhaps

19:38

to mention that he's not mentioned anywhere.

19:41

In the history of Rafale

19:43

some artists in his a

19:45

Private Letters and Meditations is

19:47

one of the most famous

19:49

individuals of the Iraq, their

19:51

Isis. Several that people may

19:53

one of them as answer

19:55

Norris Lake, Hadrian's Love, Our

19:57

and who was running debate.

20:00

The even Labelle a few years

20:02

older than Marcus of remember rightly

20:04

but. Saw. And center as

20:06

guy, he's under mysterious circumstances, he

20:08

eat tons of drained at the

20:10

bottom of the Nile and Hadrian's

20:12

company and it's a huge deal.

20:14

Heavy stuff as enormous religious coach

20:16

sister and the worship of his

20:19

dad's lover and dare I say

20:21

the suspect maybe acid because I'm

20:23

forces as a phrase us because

20:25

we're probably tell from referring to

20:27

Pay the Rusty I so it

20:29

traditionally financing this is Hadrian's Muffle

20:32

Beatles to see him as somebody

20:34

who's being sexually. Exploited by patriot

20:36

by he was something like twelve years

20:38

old. he he'd been forced into them

20:40

play and I think she's venmo nineteen

20:42

many died and then when hitting to

20:45

xbox in travels suddenly Marcus becomes his

20:47

favorite and he's brought to live in

20:49

his villa surrounded by dozens of busts.

20:51

Of this day it's a bizarre what

20:54

are we suggest? A year Marcus a

20:56

while. Oh man I do I now

20:58

I'm not going to suggest. I bet

21:00

I think again at the time visualize

21:03

the situation. It's It's pretty. We. Are

21:05

right it as a witness not

21:07

be to start paying for late.

21:09

I'm a young boy see the

21:11

thing that matters. Went to seen

21:13

Higgins Velocity his seen fit to

21:15

he didn't have been back for

21:17

see as by that point. So

21:19

my your skin you have kids

21:21

and kittens Villa is this like

21:23

huge com massive complex filled with

21:25

slaves am et was pretty the

21:27

imminent you know I think sometimes

21:29

we can exaggerate how corrupt and

21:31

decadent Roman emperors way off the

21:33

something We're pretty on. Foot were

21:35

right, you know atheist realm within are

21:38

only five good ones that hit him

21:40

felt less enormous, ages usually considered to

21:42

be one of the get with light

21:44

and and he was having all these

21:46

political parties where he was threatening to

21:49

execute even members a marked as his

21:51

family and the he's a hear what

21:53

is come and live in my house.

21:55

I mean there's no ways that that

21:57

wouldn't have freaked him out and we're

22:00

told Marcus was really reluctant to go

22:02

unless the oh no kidding right of

22:04

course they you know for many multiple

22:06

reasons. I mean by some accounts hates.

22:08

Adrian was known for writing a robotic

22:10

poetry a young men may and apparently

22:13

was. it is not Roman of is

22:15

it is pretty sexually explicit and Cruz

22:17

my no one tells you that way.

22:19

So this guy this guy is saying

22:21

i want your fifteen year old son's

22:24

come and live in my house So

22:26

now when I'm and I mean I

22:28

think the have spared now. There's another

22:30

elephant in the room. We haven't even talked

22:32

about the fact that Seneca not mentioned we

22:34

now have a potential and was as multiple

22:36

elephants. It is this Allison is then. You're.

22:39

Not suggesting it, but the history

22:41

does seem to have space for

22:43

the idea. That. Marcus Aurelius

22:46

as a young man could have been

22:48

sexually assaulted by Adrian. Have happens. I

22:50

think it would go too far to

22:52

say that because we don't know that.

22:54

I hope so. I remember anybody I

22:56

would have so far as certainly been

22:59

have been unusual an ancient world. A

23:01

There are reasons that are there are

23:03

reasons that we might hesitate or question.

23:05

At. Dots and would be a

23:08

faint relatively unusual for it to happen

23:10

to someone and Marcus's status arguably. That

23:12

said that we just have no and

23:14

bit of why we see what what

23:17

I'm saying that we can be confident

23:19

about it is it will be next

23:21

and say on way and if we

23:23

try to visualize the situation isn't it

23:26

would be ridiculously nice to pretend that

23:28

this was disturbing. And and others

23:30

other things that are really disturbing about

23:32

a heaping has it up as a

23:35

seems happened political parties against marxist his

23:37

family and executing people have spies everywhere

23:39

right so there's nothing to would have

23:41

a tells you as a city was

23:44

nuts odious for having a for paying

23:46

and four months so the romans had

23:48

this and we have system whereby you

23:50

dress someone off and they got executed

23:52

for treason that you got I think

23:55

it was something like a sort of

23:57

the property which is crazy prices so

23:59

obviously. Even your interests.

24:02

To. Make up stories about rich

24:04

people crying and normally they wouldn't

24:06

be believed. The same probe happens

24:08

not to like. Somebody.

24:11

There are people queuing up. To

24:13

accuse him of things and to

24:15

be paid for doing it because

24:17

it ridiculous system everyone hated of

24:20

their the dell authorities are informed.

24:22

Paid. Informants and Hadrian use them a

24:24

law euro solo to torture slaves

24:26

to get them to. Through

24:29

the ruin I under the bus

24:31

and Hadrian's open People's mail and

24:33

with known for that we had

24:35

spies quonset a free we are

24:38

quite so. Marcus comes to look

24:40

and he says everyone around him

24:42

the six hundred spices, cell phones,

24:45

their own spice lay observing everything

24:47

he does so it really does

24:49

Betsen The meditations were marked as

24:52

says things like never do anything

24:54

that requires woes of customs which

24:56

is I probably us senate saying.

24:59

Or a story saying that. it

25:01

definitely takes on the you connotation

25:03

when you visualize that he be

25:06

dragged into this environment where political

25:08

parties were happening. He was surrounded

25:10

by pete and farmers and spies

25:13

watching. And. At everything and

25:15

listening to everything that he he did.

25:18

So it's no surprise that he

25:20

became hyper self conscious. And

25:23

very very reflective Play very

25:25

self possessed and his behavior.

25:29

That's. What ransom? Where is all

25:31

about psychological pressure? Ran somewhere when

25:33

you're computers have been here on

25:35

your data. Hound Grandson attacks are

25:37

on the rise. in this in

25:40

gangs and making billions of dollars.

25:42

The moment I got that message I knew

25:44

our greatest fears that we ever have are

25:46

stacked come true. The post Cold War era

25:48

is over. Dot Com. The has been

25:51

a new season from Crowd Networks with

25:53

me. To search her.com

25:55

este de l T. C L N. When

26:00

I find really interesting about you Donald

26:02

in general is that you presents in

26:04

in your work as I think a

26:06

lot of people think of you as

26:08

a. Author: About so

26:10

awesome Stoic author. But

26:12

this is now your third book

26:15

on Marcus Aurelius and. I've.

26:17

Gotta I would identify you as

26:19

a stoic. someone interested in stoicism,

26:21

someone who writes on stoicism but

26:23

above those things. A Marcus Aurelius.

26:25

expert of sorts. What is it

26:27

about Marcus Aurelius that has I

26:29

mean certainly there are many interesting

26:31

things about him, but there are

26:33

many interesting things about many interesting

26:35

people throughout history. Why him? For

26:37

I've written a three Bucks about

26:39

Marcus of herself out that the

26:41

graphic novel and a biography and

26:43

I've also edited. In addition of

26:45

the meditations were add biographical. As

26:47

it beginning of us and

26:50

have written attacked us far

26:52

as an academic anthology on.

26:54

Mattresses, Relationship to psychotherapy.

26:57

As well liked So I mean over the

26:59

past few years of have done a lot

27:01

rating of the box of least why most

27:03

likely lox ah finale or and almonds and.

27:06

We. Just know so much about him

27:08

ends so the other ingredients they are

27:10

you need is when i was

27:12

young guy i went to university as

27:15

must have reason for lost seats and

27:17

i for some reason i just

27:19

find it easier to study philosophers if

27:21

i that I read lots of my

27:24

overseas so i read this investors

27:26

bio the Fear Advocacy group of faith

27:28

in our and by observational soft his

27:30

autobiography play by reading about these

27:32

philosophers. I. Find it easier because

27:34

if was we can become very abstract

27:37

and if I knew more about the

27:39

author just a psychological level I retain

27:41

a visualize the dollars as if he

27:43

can hear his voice when I'm reading.

27:46

I mean that the same, that's really

27:48

the track Titus is really obstructs that

27:50

formal logic that fine canaan. Knowing about

27:52

the effect in Spain looking at four

27:54

August so Bambee days Biographies: Sunlight seen

27:57

more Pass Know and will three dimensional

27:59

a human. The sauna and so I

28:01

made it easier for me to remember

28:03

stuff and kind of in our and

28:05

really to to some of the abstract

28:07

ideas that they were coming. I was

28:09

so I guess I took that and

28:11

then applied to sooth Asm and I

28:13

thought gee who to we you know

28:15

how much do we know of as

28:17

you know Molino, some of his you

28:19

know but honestly the the information haven't

28:21

seen noise is very anecdotal and it

28:23

said once you go back to class

28:25

the Lawson's you know it does a

28:27

big difference between Imperial Rome and Classical

28:29

Athens in terms of in also sees

28:31

are sketchy or less reliable. The for

28:33

the bicycle I generally speaking I so

28:35

we we don't we we xena. we

28:37

got bunch of anecdotes that we're not

28:39

really sure about like sometimes much as

28:41

release we've got ah up a reasonable

28:43

pile of evidence so it's much easier

28:45

to construct an image of him. You

28:47

know you and I have worked together

28:49

at Leaders Academy Center for of a

28:51

little bit now and I've got to

28:53

have a number of conversations with you

28:55

and you strike me as the kind

28:57

of person who probably doesn't enjoy talking

28:59

about. Things that they don't know much about

29:02

and I'm wondering if in other words when

29:04

it's and Donald is you don't strike me

29:06

as someone who tries to bullshit any bullshit

29:08

are now boasts in his and I'm wondering

29:10

if some of that is some of your

29:12

interest in Marcus Aurelius might be that it

29:14

requires you to do no bullshit thing because

29:17

they're so much about him is known. Is

29:19

that part of a to hit us for

29:21

of that I like? Can I like the

29:23

fact you're right. I mean I say assemblies

29:25

I you know I'm fine. I'm happy to

29:27

talk about stuff that a better than I

29:29

usually. Salvador at and about us lazy.

29:32

I'm just guessing you know I like

29:34

yeah maybe after a few years are

29:36

some fairy down slightly? we don't we

29:38

don't know that much about and we

29:40

can speculate that yeah I prefer have

29:42

to talk about things but there are

29:44

multiple reasons for that. The one of

29:46

them as as his contract controversial right

29:48

to my final on this show on

29:50

her nose and the field. A psychotherapist

29:52

and psychotherapy and a senses this is

29:54

an evidence based practice in it's infancy

29:56

is made a lot progress in recent

29:59

decades. spot where. The on training of

30:01

psychotherapy people would say hey this like

30:03

different types of psychotherapists who's gusto Therapy

30:05

news was N O P type stuff

30:08

and those late Friday during and and

30:10

I was always a different for approaches

30:12

to psychotherapy and you get shoes which

30:15

one and if you combine them and

30:17

stuff I thought i like not all

30:19

sounds stupid to yeah well as a

30:21

stupid idea right? So in some ways

30:24

it is true that different styles a

30:26

therapy said doesn't cuss now things but

30:28

I quickly fell the. The something just

30:31

chaotic about less and you know I

30:33

thought do we not have a with

30:35

you we need to know which of

30:37

them works right Some wasn't definitely work

30:39

better than others and as some of

30:42

them are more says it's to sell

30:44

individuals then we should be able to

30:46

select those individuals and maximum we shouldn't

30:48

and me but what normally happens is

30:50

that surface just do as they'll so

30:53

you don't let go even with reasoned

30:55

difference to control the sea and also

30:57

he a little anecdote saw the are

30:59

trained as the psychoanalytic. Therapists Arkansas second

31:01

was a consensus in my second.

31:04

Dynamics' comes from I have a

31:06

master's degree in Psychoanalytic theory am

31:08

study look on clay numbers. Sleep

31:10

better Next for almost a one

31:12

point I'm afraid of that. Puts

31:14

the Glenmore saw and I was

31:16

in groups of profession for psychodynamic

31:18

practice and the guy teaching as

31:20

I was at the same time.

31:22

I'm studying Cbt and things and

31:25

he talks about clients that he

31:27

had to have panic attacks and

31:29

he'd been treating. Them for two years.

31:31

seen them with three times a week,

31:33

which is pretty normal for that psychotherapy.

31:36

A Also since him in my mind

31:38

I'm thinking okay three times a week

31:40

at six hundred and fifty stations have

31:42

a T is a three hundred saisons

31:45

to names or hundred bucks assassin play

31:47

as fight for thirty grand the something

31:49

you would I do here help or

31:51

keep her income com a gas. So

31:53

the time I was like this is

31:55

expensive race gang expensive for this quiet

31:57

know. Funnily enough panic disorder. a

32:00

one of the problems where we

32:03

went from zero to hero. The

32:05

psychoanalytic therapist used to think it was

32:08

virtually untreatable and then a couple

32:10

of researchers in the

32:12

mid 1980s suddenly figured out the protocol

32:14

that worked for it and now it's

32:16

one of the most treatable conditions so

32:18

it's like a huge leap forward in

32:20

terms of the clinical effectiveness of sonica

32:23

therapy. So I said to him, you

32:25

know that there's a substantial body of

32:27

research that shows that CBT has a

32:29

very high success rate in

32:32

treating panic disorder within like

32:35

around about six weeks, eight weeks or

32:37

so right and he was like yeah

32:39

so he's like he can't plead ignorance

32:41

right, he can't say nah I don't read

32:43

research so he had to say yeah well

32:45

of course I know that and so I

32:47

said to him, knowing that

32:50

do you feel that you have

32:52

an ethical obligation to inform your

32:54

client that that research exists

32:57

and he thought it to his credit

32:59

he thought about it for a minute and

33:01

then he said no and

33:03

I said why not and he

33:05

said because I'm a union like and

33:07

that's what I do and

33:10

I don't do CBT. Oh that's

33:12

interesting so there's a kind of

33:14

loyalty to the particular vertical within

33:16

psychoanalytic theory that you would have

33:18

to back the back the party

33:20

line of and I thought that's

33:22

BS because I thought and

33:24

the way that I used to work these

33:26

things through in my mind because I trained

33:28

I was a clinical supervisor and I trained

33:30

therapists and we talked about these kind of

33:32

ethical debates but psychotherapy so in my mind

33:35

immediately my go-to is I'm gonna imagine the

33:37

clients in the room listening to this conversation

33:39

right as a benchmark and I thought if

33:41

the client is over here and she's listening

33:43

to me talking to this guy I wonder

33:45

if I was the client and I had

33:48

this conversation what would I think and I

33:50

think without a shadow of doubt that the

33:52

therapists have a legal obligation have a sort

33:54

of an ethical obligation and actually maybe even

33:56

to some extent a legal obligation to obtain

33:59

informed consent clients and arguably

34:01

it's about the legal gray area that

34:03

requires telling them if there's an evidence-based

34:05

treatment available. So it might be the

34:08

clients like I don't care I just

34:10

love union therapy so much I'm perfectly happy

34:13

to do it for years even though I'm

34:15

not seeing any improvement and I don't mind

34:17

spending 30 grand on it. That's fine right

34:19

maybe that's the thing but

34:22

what's wrong is if the therapist knows

34:24

this and doesn't tell the client you

34:27

know that's a lie of omission in

34:29

my view right it's a

34:31

significant piece of information crucial piece

34:33

of information that a therapist knows

34:36

and is withholding from the client.

34:38

So yeah absolutely as a young

34:40

guy I felt I became frustrated

34:42

with the psychotherapy field and

34:45

I wanted

34:49

to know more about what research

34:51

actually said and I wanted my

34:54

clinical practice to be evidence-based because

34:56

I felt I was surrounded by

34:58

people who were selling

35:01

me their approach

35:03

to psychotherapy. There'll

35:05

be people would be adamant that

35:08

regression and catharsis like

35:10

you know going back

35:13

and reliving your childhood experiences and

35:15

crying them out and all that

35:17

venting is like the only way

35:19

to cure problems or

35:21

they'd be adamant that tapping your face

35:23

in a certain way could cure phobias

35:25

immediately or whatever and you know most

35:27

of the time I first of all

35:29

I gradually realized that the people that

35:31

were saying that a few because I'm

35:33

old a few years later would be

35:35

saying something else they'd have moved on

35:37

to some other fad or whatever that they

35:39

got into And I

35:42

realized you know from watching them closely

35:44

and listening to them that they were

35:46

basing these claims on nothing like that.

35:48

They just wanted it to be true.

35:50

They were invested in it. So Psychotherapy

35:52

is a field where in the past

35:54

there was a lot of BS to

35:57

be honest, right? and a lot of

35:59

contradictory claims. The people were

36:01

very convincing. Other thing for

36:03

on and people in authority.

36:06

Words. You know really? I

36:08

mean there are guys that have

36:10

gotten a hits and the you

36:12

t for writing books about psychoanalytic

36:14

theory. the in retrospect look like

36:16

Total says a scientific mumbo jumbo

36:18

by it and possibly never helps

36:20

any other clients really european on

36:22

the had been find that helped

36:25

them any more than a since

36:27

gone and done any all type

36:29

of random therapy am some of

36:31

it's crazy. It's easy to make

36:33

fun of psychoanalysis in particular. The

36:35

last. Psychoanalysis paper I have a read

36:37

as part my training was by a

36:39

guy I believe I don't want to

36:41

unjustly million a psychoanalyst. are ya to

36:43

l a risk arrest get I'm pretty

36:46

sure is by Donald melts off with

36:48

the name of the guy had a

36:50

router I could be wrong I say

36:52

I say I think of is of

36:54

selling or as some other cyclists cover

36:56

and the subject in the paper was

36:58

goals and they they are ceases. Was.

37:00

The gulf was as sublimated

37:02

a know a roster says

37:04

i'm I'm because it involves

37:06

repeatedly putting your fingers and

37:08

said i'd saucy whole That

37:11

was for this Pay for

37:13

visible right that we read

37:15

in class right now is

37:17

easy to make fun of

37:19

these things. Tap your last

37:21

thing. Keeping people have whole

37:23

career scientists on writing stuff

37:25

like that and they get

37:27

know it is and they

37:29

get they get. pensions and retire

37:31

on them and live in both houses you

37:33

know because the saw and an office with

37:35

a mahogany desk and wrote these things and

37:38

then clients with them and see them and

37:40

the say it's you know i think what

37:42

your problem is he an hour as the

37:45

see play to my goal for something i

37:47

can't even imagine something like that been written

37:49

on a mahogany desk in a nice house

37:51

and that's when he's riding on the desk

37:54

and these guys always look like they're expel

37:56

ray bill a you know they've decided in

37:58

drilling why he's air And

38:00

then I'd go away and I'd kind of

38:02

slap myself and I'd think, but hang on,

38:04

I'm going to listen to what he's saying,

38:06

you know And then I'd say, well, what's

38:08

the evidence that he's been there's no evidence

38:10

at all. He's literally just made this up,

38:12

right? I reckon is

38:14

how it goes, right? Well in

38:17

CBT We're like

38:19

we look at Very high

38:21

incredibly complex statistical state-of-the-art research.

38:23

It's peer-reviewed and it's constantly

38:25

subject to revision I mean,

38:27

there's a world of

38:29

difference between a science and

38:32

a pseudoscience in that regard I mean

38:34

these pseudosciences that there's just guys going

38:36

I reckon Freud for a

38:38

hundred years people believed in castration

38:40

anxiety and the Oedipus complex and

38:42

then some people still do And

38:44

you might think I think many

38:47

people again think that Freud must

38:49

have done some kind of research

38:51

to come up with His

38:53

belief not all forms of anxiety

38:55

or repressed castration anxiety He might

38:57

have done some kind of research

39:00

to figure out, no, he literally just made it up

39:03

He had a bunch of nightmares after his

39:05

father died and he interpreted his own dreams

39:08

Sat in an armchair with his pimp and slippers

39:11

or cigar and thought I think I want to

39:13

have sex with my mum and My

39:17

father's gonna castrate me What's

39:20

going on and I'm afraid what's going on with

39:22

everyone that must be what's going on with everyone

39:24

else, too And he told his

39:26

patient this and they said no and he said

39:28

how you're in denial Well, hey, you

39:30

just don't realize it. No,

39:33

you see you see yeah proves it Yeah, that's

39:35

exactly what it was like and now been on

39:37

for like, you know I'm

39:39

so glad that that's over like because to

39:41

me that was like the dark ages of

39:43

Psychotherapy and there are I know that's gonna

39:46

offend people because there are still people that

39:48

are into psychoanalytic

39:50

theory Like many

39:52

of them are literary theorists and film

39:54

theorists and people in philosophy departments and

39:57

stuff But a lot of this difficult

40:00

not to make fun of it because

40:03

it does seem kind of

40:06

ludicrous from a set,

40:08

I mean there are good bits of

40:10

psychoanalytic theory I suppose and one of

40:13

them we were going to talk about,

40:15

I'm going to do you a favour

40:17

here tunnel, yeah, bring in the conversation

40:20

back to what I know you wanted

40:22

to talk about which is the e-contemplate

40:24

of the ego, right, so Freud said

40:27

that we have an ego, an ed

40:29

and a superego, right, first of all

40:31

he never said that by the way but

40:33

we'll pretend that he did so that my

40:36

joke works right? Yeah let's buy in,

40:38

we're suspension of belief on it. So

40:40

Freud goes into a bar and he goes up

40:42

to the bar and he says to the barman,

40:45

the barman's like how can I help you

40:48

and Freud said could I have a pint

40:50

of Guinness for my for my ego and

40:52

the barman's like sure okay anything else and

40:55

he says yeah I'll have a whiskey chaser

40:57

for my superego. Now the

41:00

barman is actually a postgraduate

41:03

student in psychology he's just doing a bit

41:05

of bar work to put rent on it

41:07

right? So he's like oh this is great

41:09

I've got a great opportunity right? I've read

41:11

Freud, so he says what about

41:13

your ed and Freud says nothing

41:16

for him thanks because he's driving

41:18

and that's my only psychoanalytic joke,

41:20

it's not my only psychoanalytic joke

41:22

but it's the best one. Now

41:24

what it leads to, I said

41:26

Freud never said any other stuff

41:28

right? Because Freud was German right?

41:30

He was Austrian, he wrote in

41:32

German and he, ego,

41:35

ed and superego are Latin or

41:38

Latin terms that were introduced by

41:40

James Strachey, Freud's translator

41:43

right? Freud just

41:45

says it, I, over

41:48

I I think and so

41:50

there was a movement at one point

41:52

to retranslate all of Freud's works removing

41:55

these Latin terms because some

41:57

people, many psychoanalysts who think

42:00

a lot overthinking a way

42:03

about Freud writing said the use of

42:05

these Latin terms, let's come back to

42:07

ego, reifies what Freud was

42:09

saying. So when you say ego, Freud

42:11

just said the I does this, the

42:13

I does that. They said it seems

42:15

more naturalistic and more intuitive. If you

42:17

say the ego, it seems more formal.

42:19

And it makes it seem more like

42:21

you're talking about a kind of imaginary

42:23

entity. And

42:26

it doesn't quite have that connotation. And

42:28

the original German that Freud wrote, they

42:30

claim. So there's an argument people used

42:32

to say that Freud in German comes across

42:34

as more in the parlance

42:36

of psychotherapy humanistic than

42:39

Strachey's translation, but we're stuck

42:42

with this

42:44

terminology, because it's so ingrained

42:46

in our culture. Now, it's

42:48

interesting that something else something happens similar

42:50

between irritate and virtue, right? Yeah, a

42:52

lot of people will say, Oh, well,

42:54

virtue has to do with men only

42:57

because ver comes that means male masculine.

42:59

And so only men can chase virtue.

43:01

And it sounds like a very

43:03

similar thing in that that's not what the

43:05

Greeks were saying, because virtue is a Greek

43:07

word is a Latin word. Well, there's a

43:09

general point here about translation, right? Let's

43:13

get really broad, like, but it's worth

43:15

mentioning, I mean, anyone that's interested in

43:17

stoicism, and I guess it relates to writing

43:19

biographies and writing about sources and stuff. And that

43:22

is where we have to leave Donald Robertson,

43:24

at least for now, I had to get

43:26

back to cooking dinner, my wife was on

43:28

her way home from work, she is nearly

43:30

eight months pregnant. And so I wanted to

43:32

make sure dinner was done. And I cut

43:34

Donald off and said, Hey, we never talked

43:37

about ego, not really. So can you come

43:39

back and we can talk about ego later

43:41

in February, and he very graciously agreed that

43:43

he could and would. So I hope you

43:45

enjoyed that conversation. The first half about Marcus

43:47

Aurelius, The bit about Hadrian and

43:49

the possible sexual exploitation aspect of

43:51

that story blew my mind to think

43:54

that that might have happened to Marcus

43:56

as a young man, even though Donald

43:58

makes it clear. That would have been

44:01

extremely uncommon to have happened to someone

44:03

of Marcus the status. He also agrees

44:05

that it would have certainly been a

44:07

concern to the people who were involved

44:09

and that's a terrible thing to think

44:11

about. But in any of and I

44:13

hope that you enjoy the episode. I

44:16

will look forward to inviting down Roberson

44:18

back to have an actual discussion about

44:20

Ego more formally. But until then, and

44:22

until next time. Thank you again for

44:24

listening. And taker.