0:03

I'm Jonathan Walton and this is Queen

0:06

of the Khan. The Unreal Housewife,

0:08

Episode seven, a bonus episode

0:12

Jenshaw and The Dropout.

0:19

The world works in certain ways until

0:22

a new great idea comes along and

0:24

changes everything. What if you could test

0:26

your blood in your own home, and

0:28

what if it wasn't a whole file but

0:30

just a drop.

0:32

That's a clip from The Dropout, an

0:35

amazing Hulu series about Jenshaw

0:37

adjacent scammer Elizabeth Holmes,

0:40

a woman who conned investors out

0:42

of hundreds of millions of dollars,

0:44

tricking them all into believing that her company

0:47

Fair Nose invented this little

0:49

magic machine that could test for

0:52

hundreds of diseases and ailments

0:54

using a single drop

0:57

of blood. It was like something

0:59

you'd see on Star Trek. Walgreens

1:02

in fact, invested a fortune

1:04

in Elizabeth Holmes and actually started

1:06

installing these little blood drop test

1:08

machines in their stores. Come

1:11

to find out they didn't work

1:14

at all. The entire blood

1:16

drop test machine was an elaborate

1:18

hoax because as hard as Elizabeth

1:21

Holmes tried to invent this thing,

1:23

and she tried really hard, she

1:26

just couldn't do it. She spent millions

1:28

of dollars, hired and fired hundreds

1:31

of talented scientists and engineers.

1:34

She built dozens of prototypes,

1:36

but ultimately none of them functioned,

1:39

but she pretended they did. She

1:43

not only built investors out of millions

1:45

in her insane quest, but testing

1:48

her machine on actual patients

1:50

caused massive misdiagnoses

1:53

and one of her employees actually

1:56

committed suicide over the whole

1:58

thing. In the end, Elizabeth

2:00

Holmes got criminally charged and convicted

2:03

of fraud and was sentenced to

2:05

more than eleven years in federal

2:07

prison. And guess what, Right

2:11

now, she's actually serving time

2:14

with Jen Shaw.

2:16

So Elizabeth Holmes has asked to

2:18

go to the same federal prison camp

2:20

that Genshaw's at. This doesn't surprise

2:23

me.

2:23

The amazing Emily de Baker again

2:25

host of the Emily Show podcast.

2:27

It's the western most

2:30

minimum security women's prison camp,

2:32

which makes it easier for family to

2:34

visit. And that's in Brian, Texas.

2:37

And we will see Elizabeth Holmes and Jenshaw

2:39

at the same women's prison for a

2:41

substantial number of years. Do

2:43

they write a book together? Do they start

2:46

a business venture together? I want

2:48

to know everything about

2:50

the conversations between Elizabeth Holmes

2:53

and Jenshaw because both of them

2:55

have argued similar things. I

2:58

was caught up in this. I was trying to prove

3:00

myself as a woman in this field. The

3:02

men around me were manipulating me. I

3:05

didn't know that this was fraudulent.

3:08

I believed in what I

3:10

was doing. I didn't believe that this was

3:12

harmful. They both have had very

3:14

similar defenses in their cases. I

3:18

had these horrible things happened to me in the past,

3:20

and that is an excuse for

3:22

what I'm doing now. I think there's a

3:24

lot of similarity there. I am

3:27

fascinated to see what happens.

3:29

I wish they were filming a show. Is that

3:31

terrible? Maybe it's terrible, but I want

3:34

to know.

3:36

I agree it's fascinating. But I

3:38

do think at their core

3:40

they are different women,

3:42

different criminals. What differentiates

3:45

Jenshaw from Elizabeth Holmes, in my

3:47

mind, is Jenshaw

3:50

is a scammer, right. I don't

3:52

think Elizabeth Holmes intended

3:55

to be a scammer. I really do believe

3:57

Elizabeth Holmes believed

4:00

she could make this thing that could

4:02

test a thing with a drop of blood. I

4:04

think that because she kept

4:06

hiring engineers to create it,

4:09

and when they couldn't, she'd fire them and hire more

4:11

engineers, and she kept trying.

4:13

I do believe Elizabeth Holmes, in her heart

4:16

of hearts, really did believe she could

4:18

do it, and she just needed more time and more

4:20

money, and lying to get it seemed

4:22

like a decent price to pay. Whereas

4:25

jenshaw knew it's a scam out of the

4:27

gate, I'm just going to ride this train as long as I

4:30

can and suck all these people out of as much

4:32

money as I can. I know this is all a lie.

4:34

Whereas Elizabeth Holmes, Yes,

4:37

she lied and stole money and built

4:39

investors, But I believe

4:42

she believed she could do it. She could

4:44

create this thing that would revolutionize blood

4:47

tests all over the world and save

4:49

lives. I believe she thought

4:51

she could do it. But you

4:54

know, that's not a defense.

4:55

But what scamming investors, you know, scamming

4:58

investors out of four high hundred

5:00

nine hundred million dollars and having

5:02

patients get her patients were

5:04

getting results, they

5:06

were her answer or didn't or were in

5:09

remission or weren't. The

5:12

potential impacts I think of Elizabeth

5:14

Holmes are broader than

5:17

Jenshaw because of the amount

5:19

of people her scam reached because it was

5:21

getting put into Walgreens

5:23

and Safeway. But with Genshaw, I

5:26

wonder if she also believed that

5:28

these are just shady marketing practices,

5:30

that this isn't really criminal,

5:33

like it's questionable. It's

5:35

not wire fraud and money

5:37

laundering. It's just questionable.

5:40

No. I know she knew it was so bad

5:42

because look at her attempts to conceal

5:45

it, look at the offshore accounts in the message. She

5:47

knew it was wrong. She knew she'd go to jail

5:49

for it if they caught her, and she tried her darness

5:51

not to get caught. Whereas, yes,

5:53

Elizabeth Holmes knew line to investors

5:55

to get money was wrong, but in her mind

5:57

she was doing it for noble cause to

6:00

invent this thing. And again, if

6:02

Elizabeth Holmes was a scammer, scammer, scammer,

6:04

she would have just taken the money and ran.

6:07

That's true. She did end up with nothing.

6:09

But she really did try.

6:11

She tried to. She had labs, she

6:13

had teams of scientists hiring

6:16

and firing the minute they couldn't invent the

6:18

thing. She had in her head, she'd fire

6:20

them and replace them with others who could from

6:22

Apple, from Google, from whatever. You know, Like

6:25

she really did believe she's crazy. I'm

6:27

not saying she's not crazy, but I don't

6:29

think you know, she had more character than

6:33

Jenshaw.

6:33

Do you think there was like an altruistic narcissism

6:36

to it, where it was a I'm just

6:38

crazy enough to believe I can change the world.

6:40

And everyone was gassing her up, and she's like, so what if

6:42

I have to change a few things and

6:44

lie to investors about how it's happening. At the end

6:46

of the day, the good it will

6:49

be good is going to be worth it. So it's

6:51

when it all cost versus

6:53

scam. It all costs.

6:54

Maybe, I mean, and that makes her a little better,

6:57

but definitely I don't. She's not a

7:00

I mean, she's not a con artist.

7:02

She just you know, got carried

7:04

away with a dream. Let me be her attorneys.

7:06

I love that you're like, I can argue this

7:09

for Elizabeth Holmes because I can see the

7:11

altruism or No.

7:13

It's not necessarily poor Elizabeth Holmes. It's

7:15

just that I don't think her intention.

7:16

She didn't go into it defrauding. She went

7:19

into it with a purpose to make

7:21

a change and defrauded to get

7:23

to that purpose because when it became, when it all costs.

7:26

Her partner in his sentencing

7:28

submission called her a zealot. He

7:30

said she had a religious fervor

7:33

to make this happen and was going

7:35

to like basically cross any boundary

7:37

to make it happen, like laws be

7:40

damned, I'm going to force this thing

7:42

into existence, which is a difference

7:44

from Shaw because it was also boundaries

7:46

be damned. But the end result with Genshaw

7:48

was just financial. But

7:51

where did hers go? Jenshaw seemingly

7:53

also has nothing. Elizabeth Holmes and

7:55

her sentencing submission said, but I've already

7:57

lost all my stock options in my private plan.

8:00

Cry me a river about your

8:02

stock options. But they

8:05

made the same argument that you're making and sentencing

8:08

is. But she took nothing. She

8:10

never cashed out the business. She went

8:12

down with the ship and is now going

8:14

to prison for going down with the ship.

8:17

But it's not different than other venture

8:19

capital that fails.

8:21

Not everything that investors invest in

8:24

becomes the next big thing. So

8:26

it and the people.

8:28

I'm not saying she's a good I don't think she's a good I

8:30

think there's a difference. I'm just saying motive

8:32

wise, her motives were

8:34

never.

8:36

Evil, her victims were more savvy,

8:38

her victims were. I mean,

8:40

she was convicted of defrauding investors,

8:43

not patients. I think a lot of the patients

8:45

of theirness were also victims here. But she

8:47

was convicted of defrauding investors

8:50

who are savvier than the

8:52

victims of Genshaw. Genshaw was

8:54

preying on non sophisticated

8:57

victims in order to perpetrate

8:59

this fraud. Elizabeth Holmes

9:01

was praying a much more sophisticated investors.

9:04

But I don't think she was preying on anyone.

9:06

I really do believe, just like Sonny said,

9:09

she was a zealous She believed she could make

9:11

she could will this and do existence at

9:13

all costs, which I'm not saying is a good

9:15

thing, but at least she has

9:18

some kind of noble intent at the end of the day,

9:20

as horrible as it turned out, as many

9:22

disgusting things she did to get there or

9:24

try to get there, she really did believe there

9:27

was a there there Whereas a

9:29

regular scammer like Jenshaw, who's

9:31

so similar to every other scammer under the

9:33

sun. They know there's no

9:35

there there. They're just gonna lie,

9:38

cheat and steel to get as much money as they can

9:40

in a short amount of time as they can get it and

9:43

run away. So there's

9:45

the difference. I don't think Elizabeth Holmes is a

9:47

scammer.

9:48

You make a good point. Elizabeth Holmes

9:50

did not try to conceal

9:52

what she was doing with fair Nose.

9:54

In fact, it went the other way.

9:57

She was as big and bold

9:59

and public ash she could be, but behind

10:01

the scenes she was concealing that none

10:03

of it worked. She was concealing

10:06

how the processes were happening and lying

10:08

about it to continue to get money from investors.

10:11

So there was some concealment there.

10:18

When she was threatened to be outed

10:20

that she was not actually using

10:23

her machine and was actually manipulating

10:25

other machines, those people were fired

10:27

and threatened. The way she sent David

10:29

Boyce after the whistleblowers is

10:31

horrific. So there was

10:33

concealment from Elizabeth

10:36

Holmes in a different way. But yes, I

10:38

do think she believed that these

10:40

were reasonable boundaries to

10:42

cross, and what's cracking

10:45

a few eggs to make an omelet At the end

10:47

of the day, because at the end of the day,

10:50

I do think she believed she was going to revolutionize

10:53

health care for everyone. But it

10:55

was all lies and bullshit,

10:57

and.

10:57

There's a documentary series and a scripted series.

11:00

But one of the things that stunned me she

11:02

would put on the voice.

11:03

And now we know it was all an act, because Elizabeth

11:05

Holmes, in this reworking

11:08

of her life for The New York Times has

11:10

dropped the voice and dropped the act. It

11:12

was all part of the con. The persona

11:15

was all part of the con.

11:16

But again I would argue, yes,

11:18

it was part of that con. But she was

11:20

doing it because she knew she had to sound,

11:23

you know, for lack of a better term, less

11:25

feminine, more masculine, to be taken.

11:27

To your sea because she was a twenty year old college

11:29

dropout and all of

11:31

her professors said, sweetie,

11:34

this can't be done the way you're saying

11:36

it, and she went, no, it

11:39

can be done. It will

11:41

be done, and I will

11:44

do it. So I think the argument we're

11:46

having is was Elizabeth

11:48

Holmes altruistically delusional

11:51

into believing that what she was going to create

11:53

at the end of the day would work, where

11:56

Jenshaw knew at the end of the day, none

11:58

of this was ever going to work. Sites were

12:00

never going to work. Where Elizabeth Holmes

12:02

was chasing down something she honestly believed

12:04

would work, and everyone who was telling her

12:06

otherwise were just you know, haters,

12:09

non believers. Weren't drinking

12:11

the kool aid. But doesn't that just

12:13

make her a cult leader? Like at

12:15

the end of the day, like this

12:18

is what's going to happen. Everyone

12:20

says it can't happen, and she's like, but it

12:22

can if you just drink

12:24

the green juice and believe me.

12:27

I mean, so, if the shoe was on the other

12:29

foot, right, let's say Jen

12:31

Shaw was in Elizabeth Holmes position,

12:35

there would be no Thearaohnos, there'd

12:37

be no laboratory, there'd be no scientists, there'd be

12:39

no prototypes.

12:40

Right, because that's overhead. She would just be taking the

12:42

money.

12:43

She'd just be taking the money and making

12:45

up another story why this is not here or that's

12:47

not there, taking more money, taking more money. So

12:49

again it's a you know, we're splitting hairs

12:52

because ultimately both women did horrendous

12:54

things and heard a lot of people.

12:55

I think it's a great conversation though, about the

12:57

different kinds of personalities

12:59

and the different kinds of cons

13:03

where Elizabeth Holmes had

13:05

this. I mean, both of them have

13:07

this larger than life personality. I

13:11

find Genshaw more captivating than

13:13

I find Elizabeth Holmes, but I

13:15

think they both used

13:18

the way that they could draw people in, different

13:21

people, the way they could draw people in to

13:23

perpetrate fraud. And Elizabeth

13:26

Holmes knew she was perpetrating fraud.

13:29

I just think she believed at the end of

13:31

the day, somehow they would

13:33

make it work and it would all be fine and all

13:35

the eggs that were broken would just go away.

13:37

Because that's really Isn't that how

13:39

venture capital investing works. Isn't that how

13:42

you do things when you're trying to create something

13:44

new? You know, it's not really lying that

13:47

it doesn't work, even though it was where

13:50

Jenshaw knew it was lying, is what you're

13:52

saying, and knew that at the end of the day it never would

13:54

work out. There was never going to be a

13:56

turnaround. That's your point exactly.

13:59

It was a scam out of the gate. And because

14:02

it bothers me that a lot of people

14:04

throw this term con artist around, they

14:06

call everyone a con artist, but you

14:08

know, a con artist is a specific

14:10

type of creature where

14:12

they make plans to get money

14:14

and it's all smoke and mirrors. Nothing really is

14:16

true, nothing exists. It's all

14:19

just a scam and you realize that and

14:21

usually they get away. But they

14:23

call Elizabeth Holmes a con artist. I don't think

14:26

she is a con artist. She is a criminal.

14:28

She lied and cheated investors, but she's

14:30

not a con artist. Billy

14:33

McFarland fire Festival guy, everyone

14:36

calls everyone calls him a car You

14:38

see him.

14:39

More like Elizabeth Holmes, like I

14:41

can pull it off. Just give me a little bit

14:43

more time, give me a little bit more money. I

14:45

can make it happen.

14:46

I did a deep dive into Firefest.

14:48

I do believe

14:51

he really did think he could do it, and

14:54

he tried.

14:55

But at what point is

14:58

delusion? I

15:00

guess at what point is that criminal or not criminal?

15:03

And that's no, it's absolutely criminal.

15:05

I think he is criminal. What he did was criminal for

15:07

sure, But he's not a con

15:09

artist because if he were a con artist, he

15:12

wouldn't have rented that eye pens

15:15

or sandwich is. He wouldn't be trying to get music

15:17

acts and sign all these Like I think he was

15:19

just a bad businessman who got carried

15:21

away with his vision like Elizabeth Holmes, and

15:24

thought he could pull it off. If you just give him more money,

15:26

more time, you could do it. And it's interesting

15:28

because with Elizabeth Holmes, a lot of what

15:30

her lawyers argued was really

15:33

this isn't fraud. This was dogged

15:37

belief and it doesn't amount

15:39

to wire fraud because she believed what she

15:41

was telling investors. She believed

15:43

that she would get there. But what they showed

15:45

is that she was also changing documents

15:48

and manipulating data and lying about

15:50

it, and those are the things

15:53

that got her. But Elizabeth Holmes was not convicted

15:55

of everything she was charged with, and

15:57

so I think that the jury was also split

16:00

because they were like, no, she was lying to investors,

16:02

but she wasn't really lying to client to patients,

16:06

and so there was more of a split there. But

16:08

she was also charged with a lot more crimes

16:10

and a lot more money than we saw

16:12

Genshaw be charged with because the people that

16:15

Elizabeth Holmes was defrauding, she was defrauding

16:17

them out of millions at a time where Genshaw

16:20

was defrauding your more normal, average,

16:22

everyday person, where

16:24

when she's defrauding them for thousands and sometimes

16:27

tens of thousands, it's all that they have, so

16:29

she's taking a larger percentage of

16:32

the individual's net worth

16:34

even though it's less of a chunk of money,

16:37

where Elizabeth Holmes is defrauding less people

16:39

of much larger sums of money. And it's interesting

16:41

in the federal sentence and guidelines, the amount

16:44

of money taken and the amount of

16:46

victims and the age of the victims all kind of calculate

16:48

into a sentence. And at the end

16:50

of the day, Elizabeth Holmes just

16:52

got binged for over four hundred

16:55

million in restitution. But she's

16:57

only serving eleven years, the same

16:59

as chrisly and jen

17:02

Shaw is serving six. So you

17:04

know, the amount of time that they got

17:07

is not so different when

17:09

you look at it at the end.

17:10

Of the day. And Elizabeth Holmes went to try

17:13

she did, which you

17:15

know, just adds more weight

17:17

to my belief. She really did

17:19

believe she was about something bigger than

17:21

herself, and she was. There

17:23

is a certain I love your phrasing altruistic

17:26

narcissism. Yes, I

17:28

think that's what it was, but it wasn't a

17:31

She didn't intend to scam anyone. She really

17:34

tried to create this thing and she

17:36

ended up scamming a ton of people to

17:38

make this happen, and it never could happen.

17:40

She thought it was justified, and it was

17:43

justified beyond her pocketing the money

17:45

is what you're is what you're kind of seeing there.

17:47

I love this conversation so much because

17:50

it's it really did stick with me

17:52

when her her partner

17:55

called her a zealot, that was the words

17:57

in his It struck me. I've never seen

17:59

any one putting forth a sentencing

18:01

memo to help someone and say

18:03

that they had like a religious

18:06

fervor to make it happen. Because then I

18:09

was sitting there reading it, going wait, is Elizabeth Holmes

18:11

just like a scientific cult leader?

18:13

Like this is wild to me that this

18:16

is how he's likening her. But everyone

18:18

who knew her in their sentencing memos pinned

18:20

on what you're talking about. She

18:23

believed that this would

18:26

work at the end of the day, even

18:28

though everyone was telling her no,

18:30

even though it was an unreasonable

18:33

belief, even though there was no objective

18:35

criteria to support the belief. It

18:38

doesn't matter. She believed

18:40

it, and then she likened herselves to people

18:42

like Steve Jobs, who said, you

18:44

know, oh, you can't make a cell phone like that, and he's

18:47

like, I believe that we can. She's like, I'm doing

18:49

the same thing. I'm making an

18:51

iPhone.

18:52

And in a way, I mean yeah, I mean

18:54

yeah. If you know anything about Apple and

18:56

Steve Jobs, he is kind of

18:59

Elizabeth Holmes.

19:00

That's how she saw herself.

19:01

It worked out for him, right because

19:03

ultimately he was able to piece together

19:05

the right team to create the iPhone, to

19:07

create the iPod, but she never

19:10

could. Who knows, ten years from now,

19:12

they may invent this thing that can do all these tests

19:14

from a drop of blood.

19:16

The investors wanted it to be true.

19:18

The Faohnhos investors wanted this

19:20

to be true. They wanted to be a part of something that would

19:23

change the world. And I think they

19:25

overrode their own red flags because they wanted

19:27

it to be true, the same way Jenshaw's

19:29

victims overrode their own red flags because

19:31

they wanted this thing that was going to change their own

19:33

life, this opportunity to make some

19:35

more money in retirement, or make a little bit more

19:37

money from home to harness. The power

19:39

of the Internet to make their lives a little bit

19:41

better. All of these victims

19:44

just wanted it to be true. So

19:47

at the end of the day, did Genshaw

19:49

ever believe it would be true for them? Maybe

19:51

not. Did Elizabeth Holmes believe she could make

19:53

it true for them? Maybe so?

19:55

Yeah, I think absolutely

19:58

she did.

20:01

She named her daughter invicta

20:03

Latin for invincible or unconquered.

20:06

I mean, it says it all, kind

20:08

of does.

20:09

That's Victoria Thompson a journalist

20:11

and executive producer for ABC News.

20:14

She co wrote and produced the Dropout

20:16

podcast for ABC Audio and

20:18

was an executive producer on the Dropout TV

20:21

series for Hulu. She's been

20:23

immersed in the Elizabeth Holmes saga

20:25

for the past five years.

20:28

Some of it will never leave my brain as long as.

20:31

At this point, I imagine you

20:33

know more than most about

20:36

Elizabeth Holmes. You know more than anyone else

20:38

on Earth, I would wager, maybe not.

20:40

On Earth, but Rebecca Jarvis

20:42

and Taylor Dunn, who I

20:44

wrote, reported and produced both

20:46

seasons of the podcast with they know just as much.

20:49

One of the more surreal experiences was

20:51

when we were covering the trial and doing this

20:53

weekly series on the sort of

20:55

minutia of the week.

20:57

The scripted series was shooting.

20:59

In Los Angeles, so we were kind

21:01

of going from San Jose, California,

21:03

to Los Angeles and you know, seeing

21:06

the real Elizabeth Holmes in this small courtroom

21:09

and going to the set where it was being

21:11

portrayed by actors. Sort Of an interesting

21:14

byproduct of that is we were getting all

21:16

this discovery covering

21:18

the trial, this cash of five thousand

21:21

text messages between her and Sonny. So we would

21:23

go then back to the

21:25

writers and say, oh my gosh, you know,

21:28

we've just gotten all these very

21:31

interesting text messages and you know nicknames

21:33

they would call each other that. Then they would go

21:35

back into the writer's room and start incorporating

21:37

into scenes.

21:38

So that was pretty cool.

21:40

I'm sure they loved it, like the fresh original

21:42

ideas they could just ping off of and

21:45

create something amazing.

21:46

I think they loved and hated it. They were like, oh my gosh,

21:48

this is so overwhelming.

21:50

But but yes, I think that ultimately

21:53

they were happy to have some, you

21:56

know, the real life boards.

21:57

Were you surprised Elizabeth Holmes

21:59

went trial. I'm sure her

22:02

attorneys explain to her

22:04

and I learned this doing

22:07

this podcast for the past few years

22:09

that, especially at the federal level,

22:11

if you're federally charged, there is

22:13

a nearly one hundred percent chance you will

22:15

be convicted if you go to trial. They have such

22:18

a high percentage of convictions because

22:20

the Feds have unlimited resources

22:23

and they're not going to charge you unless

22:25

they know they can win. So most

22:28

people in Elizabeth Holmes's position

22:31

would plead guilty to get half

22:33

or less of prison time she ended up getting.

22:36

Did it surprise you she decided

22:38

to roll the dice and go to trial?

22:40

It did not surprise me.

22:42

I think she has an unwavering

22:45

kind of confidence and you know her innocence,

22:47

and really thought she was going to

22:49

be let off and I quit

22:52

it of all counts, So honestly, I would have

22:54

been far more shocked if she had pled.

22:56

What's your take, do you think Elizabeth Holmes is a

22:58

con artist?

23:00

Well, I agree with you that at the beginning,

23:02

she certainly did not intend to go out

23:04

and defraud anybody. She really was

23:07

incredibly ambitious. She had

23:09

real drive to change the world with

23:11

this revolutionary device

23:13

that would help people around the world

23:15

through healthcare and really be kind

23:17

of a true game changer. For mankind,

23:21

you know, and I think she believed that

23:23

to her core. As the prosecution often

23:26

I would say in their arguments, where she's trying

23:29

to create the product that will ultimately be

23:31

what her vision, you know, intends.

23:33

But she had this deadline,

23:35

which was getting into the Walgreen stores,

23:38

and she ran out of money, so as they kept

23:40

saying as a refrain, she ran out of time, she

23:42

ran out of money, and she started to lie.

23:44

She then doctored

23:47

pharmaceutical reports.

23:48

She did things that you know she

23:51

is now convicted of that led investors

23:54

to believe a product was operating functionally,

23:57

and you know, not just doing a number of tests,

23:59

but doing on hundred of tests. The ambitions

24:01

in the beginning were very noble, and

24:03

then I do think she was

24:06

rightfully guilty of fraud by the end.

24:08

Absolutely, she absolutely is a criminal.

24:10

She is guilty. She did bad things. But

24:13

in my mind, what differentiates her from a

24:16

regular con artist like jen Shaw

24:18

or any other is out of

24:20

the gate. Jen Shaw's intention

24:23

was to scam people.

24:24

Oh yeah, I would not say they are

24:26

the same at all.

24:27

I mean, Elizabeth is a true like

24:30

wide eyed dreamy at the beginning

24:33

was yes, her intentions were pure.

24:35

You know, there were red flags.

24:37

Though, even on the early end, Like one of our favorite

24:39

people we interviewed was Phyllis Gardner as

24:41

this extraordinary professor who

24:44

you know, invented time release technology

24:46

and pills and genuinely did change,

24:49

you know, healthcare for the world. When

24:51

Elizabeth went to see her as a sophomore

24:53

at Stanford, and Phyllis Cardner

24:55

was just like, what are you talking about this? You

24:57

know, it would be great if, as she's told us, you

25:00

could create a car that can

25:02

fly or a car that can roll on square

25:04

wheels, but that's not a

25:07

real thing. And Elizabeth, you know, kind

25:09

of famously brushed her off and just said fine,

25:11

on to the next and went to another professor,

25:14

Channing Robertson, who became

25:16

one of her great champions, ended up being on

25:18

her payroll. She did have this

25:21

this noble vision for sure, but

25:23

she also had this kind of to quote her favorite

25:26

Yoda, there is no try, only do. So

25:28

she really had this tunnel

25:31

vision for success. You know

25:33

that I think astounded people

25:35

around her, even at nineteen years old.

25:38

And that is one trait both

25:40

Elizabeth Holmes and Jen Shaw and every

25:42

other con artist have in common. This

25:45

bravado, this ego, this

25:48

belief that they can do X y Z despite

25:51

everyone telling them they can't or shouldn't.

25:53

They know they can. They think they're above

25:57

the criticism. They think they're above the rules,

25:59

above the law. So she did have

26:01

that early on, like I could

26:03

do this. They don't know what they're talking about.

26:05

Yeah, she's a complicated person, like everybody.

26:07

You know her childhood and how that may have

26:09

led to this,

26:12

this person that she became. This image

26:15

of Elizabeth on the running track in high

26:17

school and even though she's the slowest person on the

26:19

track and she's lagging behind everybody, but.

26:21

She refuses to get off the track until.

26:23

She finishes the race, you know, way

26:25

after everybody else's already off the track. She

26:28

has this like, I will not stop. It

26:30

does not matter what the naysayer say. A

26:32

kid who was maybe a little bit of an outsider

26:34

in high school, didn't fit in socially,

26:37

wanted to prove herself. She wanted to prove

26:39

to the world, to her family, to

26:41

her peers, her parents, her professors,

26:44

that you know, she was extraordinary.

26:46

Would you categorize Elizabeth Holmes

26:48

as charming?

26:49

I mean, it's impossible that she's not because

26:53

the way she was able to convince

26:56

some of the most brilliant minds in

26:58

the world that she is this true visionary

27:01

people who supported her till the very

27:03

end. Everyone talks about this incredible

27:06

charm she had, kind of you

27:08

know, looking at you right in the eyes and

27:10

really just just absolutely

27:12

captivating a kind of intellectual way.

27:15

And I do think those are the only two things

27:17

Elizabeth Holmes has in common

27:19

with jen Shaw and other con artists is a

27:22

the ego and b this

27:25

charm offensive that they can

27:27

disarm people, intelligent

27:29

people, people who quote should know better.

27:31

They ignore the red flags, they ignore

27:34

any skepticism they might have, and they

27:36

just get on the ride and go with

27:38

her.

27:39

You know, the list is insane.

27:41

The Henry Kissinger's, the Bill Frists,

27:43

William Cohen, you know, George Schultz,

27:46

former Secretary of State, just an unbelievable

27:49

array of people.

27:50

One of the more.

27:51

Interesting parts the trial for us with

27:53

seeing some of these men, mostly

27:55

men, get up on the stand and

27:57

describe, you know, sperience

28:00

and their first time meeting Elizabeth.

28:02

And you know, even when

28:05

the first Wall Street Journal article came out, they

28:07

still didn't doubt her one bit. Just

28:09

hearing like, you know, Wayne Millica and Stephen

28:13

Bird, Jim Maddis,

28:15

I mean Mad Dog Maddis, Like one

28:17

after the next of these guys getting

28:19

on the stand and talking about

28:21

her charm and her you know,

28:24

just how unbelievably impressed they

28:26

were with her was pretty unbelievable.

28:29

It really does prove that

28:31

famous Mark Twain quote

28:34

true. It's easier to fool

28:36

people than it is to convince them

28:38

they've been fooled. You

28:41

know, even in the face of that Wall Street

28:43

Journal report, these people believe

28:45

Elizabeth Holmes in light of evidence

28:48

she's a fraud. And I think

28:50

it's human psychology. At the end of the day. It's not so

28:52

much that they steadfastly

28:55

believe in her in light of criticism

28:57

and evidence against her. It's that it's

28:59

hard for them to admit they were

29:01

wrong. They don't want to admit they're wrong.

29:03

Absolutely, Yes, it's humiliating.

29:06

Yeah. In season two of Queen of the Khan,

29:09

we profiled con artist Lizzie Mulder,

29:11

and I managed to speak to Even

29:14

after Lizzie Mulder went to federal

29:16

prison and served time and pled guilty,

29:19

she had this ardent supporter who

29:21

was a dog trainer who I

29:23

talked to you, and she's like, you all are just

29:25

making this up about Lizzie

29:27

Mulders. She's innocent, she didn't do anything,

29:30

you all. And I was just stunned

29:33

that even after years of

29:35

this woman pleaded guilty and served her time and got

29:38

out, you still believe her. And then

29:40

I was schooled by FBI

29:42

criminal profiler Canvas DeLong, who explained

29:45

to me that basically, yeah, it's hard

29:47

for some people to admit they were wrong. So

29:49

it's not so much that they believe the con

29:52

artists. They just can't come to terms with

29:54

themselves being wrong because in their mind, if

29:56

they're wrong about this, they could

29:58

be wrong about everything. I don't want to face that,

30:01

so they hang.

30:02

On, Oh my gosh. Absolutely,

30:04

do you have.

30:05

Any theories or opinions

30:07

on why Elizabeth Holmes wanted

30:09

to go to that federal prison

30:12

in Brian, Texas where Jen Shaw

30:14

is at.

30:16

I mean, I don't, just because we haven't spoken

30:19

to anyone that has any

30:21

insight into that.

30:22

You know, they call it club fed and.

30:24

It's very similar to the federal prison where

30:26

Martha Stewart served time.

30:28

As prisons go, it seems pretty

30:31

manageable.

30:32

I'm sure those sort of things laid in.

30:34

I didn't know they call it club fed

30:36

to me that Engender's kind of a it's

30:39

an easier place to do time than other prisons.

30:42

I do remember pictures and photographs

30:44

of Martha Stewart every now and then in the prison

30:46

yard outside hanging out

30:49

with people, and by Martha

30:51

Stewart's accounts, if I recall, she

30:54

had somewhat of a

30:56

pleasant time there. She made friends,

30:58

she taught people how to so right.

31:01

She was like Olmec Captain's.

31:03

I heard those Martha Stewart accounts too,

31:05

But I've heard other prisoners say it's

31:08

not like that. It's a prison, that there

31:10

are some unsanitary conditions.

31:12

But I've definitely heard accounts

31:14

that run the Gamut.

31:17

Jen definitely wasn't taking in the overhead

31:19

that Elizabeth Holmes had Emily

31:22

D. Baker again, because we've seen

31:24

in all the reporting and the reporting from John

31:26

Carey ru that Elizabeth Holmes was burning

31:29

millions a month in trying to

31:31

make this happen in payroll and in overhead

31:33

and in scientists. She was running

31:36

a business, and then as

31:38

it wasn't going well, started lying about

31:41

what was happening to float it versus

31:43

Jenshaw, who didn't seem to ever take on that kind

31:45

of overhead. All of Jenshaw's overhead went

31:48

to people to milk money out of

31:50

victims.

31:51

Exactly, selling things that don't really

31:53

exist. Yeah, that's the difference.

31:55

A con artist sells things that don't exist,

31:58

and Elizabeth Holmes, Bill and McFarland

32:01

selling the dream they believe they

32:03

can do it.

32:04

Yeah, selling hope.

32:05

I think when Elizabeth Holmes goes to prison

32:08

and meets Jenshaw, and

32:11

based on Jenshaw's ideation

32:13

of putting a show together, in

32:16

my mind, I suddenly see that old ethel

32:18

Merman song anything you can do, I

32:21

can do better. I can do anything

32:23

better than you. No you cant, Yes I can't.

32:25

No you get you know, like them doing a

32:27

take on that for the inmates Entertainmentay,

32:30

I see it.

32:31

I can also see both of them commiserating

32:34

how they were wronged, because I think Jenshaw

32:36

sees herself more like an Elizabeth Holmes,

32:39

like I was wronged. These are marketing

32:41

practices. Maybe I lied in telling people

32:43

how much they're going to make. I think that's how

32:45

Jenshaw wants to see herself, and

32:48

I just am very

32:50

interested to see what happens here and if

32:53

we end up seeing Jenshaw and Elizabeth Holmes

32:55

becoming becoming besties while

32:57

they are in custody together, and whether

33:00

we see that shared in the

33:03

stories Genshaw is doing on Instagram

33:07

set up a website that you can pay monthly

33:09

for access. I mean, who's giving Jenshaw

33:11

their credit card number anymore? But you

33:13

could pay monthly for access to kind

33:16

of her diaries in custody. And she's

33:18

been sharing those things on Instagram

33:20

as well, and it's

33:23

really interesting. But people are still curious. People

33:25

are still interested, and they want to know the

33:27

rest of this story. And I want to

33:29

know if Jenshaw and Elizabeth Holmes become become

33:32

buddies in custody or not.

33:34

I mean, Elizabeth Holmes has had the you

33:36

know, the New York Times article that's trying to reframe

33:38

her is Liz, and so does

33:40

she want to kind of steer clear and keep her head

33:43

down? But you need

33:45

friends in custody.

33:48

Only time will tell. Make sure

33:50

you listen to our next Bonus episode where

33:52

I interview reality television impresario

33:54

Carlos King, who actually produced

33:57

several seasons of Housewives and

33:59

the incredib Kate Casey, a

34:01

true Housewives expert and host

34:03

of the podcast Reality Life with Kate

34:06

Casey. What's the latest? You both

34:08

have heard about what Jenshaw

34:10

has been up to in federal prison.

34:12

She's running that joint.

34:14

I think she's from her her bottom,

34:16

bitch.

34:18

That's the woman, ry

34:20

K She's found her bottom, bitch.

34:22

You haven't seen the end of Jenshaw.

34:24

She will be on reality television shows

34:27

for the rest of her life.

34:29

If you're enjoying Queen of the Con, click that

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share button and send it to your friends and family.

34:34

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34:41

of the Con. The Unreal Housewife

34:43

is a production of AYR Media

34:45

and iHeartMedia, hosted by me Jonathan

34:48

Walton. Executive producers

34:50

Jonathan Walton for Jonathan Walton

34:52

Productions and Elisa Rosen for

34:54

AYR Media. Written

34:56

by Jonathan Walton, segment

34:59

producer Gregory Harvey, Senior

35:02

associate producer Jill Peshesnik,

35:05

Coordinator Melina Krolevsky,

35:07

Edited by Justin Longerbe

35:09

Audio engineer Justin Longerbee

35:12

Studio engineer Maximo Abraham,

35:15

legal counsel for AYR Media, Johnny

35:18

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35:20

for iHeartMedia, Maya Howard