0:00

The Dalai Lama apologized today

0:02

after facing harsh backlash for

0:04

his interactions with the child. The

0:06

incident happened back in February at a public

0:08

gathering. A young boy

0:10

asked if he could hug the spiritual leader.

0:13

The Dalai Lama invited the boy up to where

0:15

he was sitting and then kissed the child

0:17

on the lips and said, The child

0:19

should suck his tongue. People

0:22

reacted to the video on social media calling

0:24

the behavior inappropriate and

0:26

disturbing. That's not the language

0:29

they use even when they do

0:30

it playfully with their parents

0:32

or relatives or friends. So

0:34

it's very evidently something which hits

0:36

you on the face and you're like, Why

0:39

and what has happened in this video?

0:40

In

0:42

his apology, the Dalai Lama said he is

0:44

sorry to the boy and his family, his friends

0:47

across the world and for the hurt his

0:49

words may have caused.

0:54

Hello and welcome to Real Crime Profile. This

0:56

is Jim Clemente, retired FBI profile former

0:58

New York City prosecutor and writer producer of Criminal Minds.

1:01

And today is...

1:02

Hey, I'm Mrs. Embediam, former

1:04

casting director of CBS's Criminal Minds and many other

1:06

things. And with me today is...

1:08

Laura Richards, criminal behavioral analyst,

1:11

former New Scotland Yard founder of Paladin

1:13

National Stalking Advocacy Service and host of the

1:15

podcast Crime Analyst. And we're

1:17

jumping back on to talk to all

1:19

of you lovely lot about

1:22

what we saw in a video between the

1:24

Dalai Lama which he

1:26

was with a child

1:29

in India and I have to say watching

1:31

this video which didn't make mainstream

1:33

news of him firstly

1:36

kissing the

1:37

child on the lips, then

1:39

holding his arms and holding his face and putting

1:42

his forehead to the child's forehead and

1:44

then instructing him to suck

1:46

on his tongue.

1:47

And the little boy just recoiled

1:50

and he instantly moved back and

1:52

then other people laughed. Which

1:55

obviously the child was trying to look at whether

1:58

this was normal or not and felt uncomfortable.

1:59

instinctively. And I

2:02

did post about this, Jim and Lisa, I don't know whether

2:04

you saw it, but we have been talking about child abuse.

2:06

It is Child Abuse Prevention Month. This is something

2:08

that's really important, isn't it? That

2:11

even somebody who is the Dalai Lama,

2:14

you know, we have to trust what we're seeing, don't we?

2:16

Let's focus on a couple of really important

2:19

things that you just pointed out. One, the child recoiled.

2:22

Two, the Dalai Lama actually

2:24

grabbed the child around his

2:26

jaw and pulled him in for

2:29

the kiss. Now, that

2:31

should never happen, period. It

2:34

should never happen. If

2:37

this was such, you know, just an innocent

2:39

thing where he was trying to

2:41

just show affection for this kid or whatever

2:43

it was,

2:45

why did he feel it necessary to literally

2:47

physically pull this child's face

2:49

forward, grab this kid around

2:52

the jaw and pull him forward? That's

2:54

force. That's

2:57

a criminal act.

2:59

And just because he's the Dalai Lama doesn't

3:01

mean it's not a criminal act. And,

3:03

you know, certainly people show affection

3:06

to kids in five, six, seven, eight

3:08

years old, whatever. Sometimes

3:10

they'll kiss him on the forehead or tousle their

3:12

hair, whatever that is. But that can

3:15

also be used by an offender to

3:18

desensitize the child to touch.

3:20

And doing it in front of people can

3:23

make it look like it's okay so that

3:25

in privacy they could do more. Well, I

3:27

asked the question, you know,

3:29

because the apology,

3:31

not apology that came out,

3:34

was that

3:35

he is just a very innocent

3:38

person and he does

3:40

playfully interact with

3:42

people even in

3:46

public. Now that

3:48

tells me that they're saying he playfully

3:52

interacts with people in

3:54

private. And apparently

3:58

some of those people are children.

4:01

So what does he consider playful

4:04

in private if he considers kissing

4:06

the child on the lips and then

4:09

ordering the kid, instructing

4:11

the kid to suck on his tongue, then sticking

4:14

out his tongue and bringing it

4:16

to the mouth of the child?

4:18

What is appropriate in

4:20

private if that's appropriate in public?

4:24

I think you pointed out, Laura, that this

4:26

is grooming.

4:28

This is a very classic

4:30

example of grooming.

4:32

And it is wrong. And it should never

4:35

be done because what this does, even

4:37

if the Dalai Lama doesn't have sexual

4:40

intentions, what it does is it tells

4:42

the kid it's okay for adults to do this

4:44

to you. And it's not. Yeah,

4:46

yeah, this is so hard for me to talk

4:49

about because I, you know, I've practiced

4:51

Buddhism for a really long time. I've had

4:53

residency at monasteries and, and,

4:56

you know, those of us who, who follow

4:58

the Dalai Lama, we sort of love his

5:01

childlike playfulness and his goofiness

5:04

and his approachability. And there

5:06

is sort of a

5:08

look, if there were no child predators

5:11

in the world, if there were no rapists in the

5:13

world, then having physical

5:16

touch wouldn't

5:18

be so triggering. And there's a

5:20

person in the Hindu faith called Amma who's known

5:22

for hugging. Like that's what she does.

5:25

You come to her whether you're dirty, you're clean,

5:27

she will hug you and touch you and give

5:30

you solace. And for a lot of us

5:32

in Buddhism, that's what that is. It's

5:35

that loving kindness, that touch,

5:37

no matter if you're, you're a leaper or

5:39

you're a millionaire, you can

5:42

be hugged and solace.

5:45

That's, that's just part of the community.

5:48

But of course, that is the

5:50

entryway for people to abuse that.

5:52

And so I don't know

5:54

what to think. It's, it's a, it was a horrific thing

5:56

to look at. You know, Laurie shared that and

5:59

I watched it with John. absolute horror

6:01

and I don't know what to think and

6:03

I can only assume that this is what other

6:06

Christians think when they see people

6:09

in their communities abusing

6:11

others and they want to deny it and my first

6:14

instinct is like oh well he didn't mean that

6:16

he didn't mean that but

6:17

why would he not mean that why would

6:19

he be above the fray

6:22

of grooming than anybody else that's

6:25

my

6:25

well we can't let anybody especially

6:27

somebody who's in a position of authority do

6:30

that in public now now let's

6:33

let's see how many offenders

6:35

take that video and show

6:37

it to a child and say see the Dalai

6:39

Lama does this you can do it with me

6:42

that's a absolute reason why it should never

6:44

have been done

6:45

even if he had pure intentions it's

6:47

wrong it

6:48

shouldn't be done it shouldn't be an apology

6:51

the way that that's not apology that came

6:53

out just

6:54

trying to say oh it's okay for me to

6:56

do it because I'm playful fuck

6:58

that well let me read the apology

7:00

because when I saw this video I went straight

7:03

to the Dalai Lama's Twitter feed and

7:05

actually this hadn't been reported upon and the

7:07

apology was posted on Monday this was

7:10

what was posted a video clip has

7:12

been circulating that shows a recent meeting

7:14

when a young boy asked his holiness the Dalai

7:16

Lama if he could give him a hug his

7:19

holiness wishes to apologize to the boy

7:21

and his family as well as his many

7:23

friends across the world for the hurt

7:25

his words may have caused

7:28

his holiness often teases people he

7:30

meets in an innocent and playful way

7:33

even in public and before cameras

7:35

he regrets the incident

7:37

so if we break that down firstly

7:40

he says that the boy is a boy rather than

7:42

a child to me that's important

7:45

the fact that he says that the the

7:47

child asked him for a hug well

7:49

you talked about hugs Lisa but

7:52

this wasn't the reaction of a hug

7:55

this was the fact that he grabbed this

7:57

little boy asked for a hug but that's

7:59

not what he gave

7:59

him. He pulled the boy to him and

8:02

he grabbed his face and he pulled

8:04

his face to him and planted this kiss on his

8:06

lips. That's not okay.

8:08

The child didn't have autonomy and

8:11

obviously

8:11

there are cameras and there's microphones

8:14

and there's lots of other people around so there's an occasion

8:17

but the boy is clearly in awe of

8:19

the Dalai Lama which most people are. So

8:21

we have to remember the grooming component that

8:24

before you meet that person that

8:26

little boy was in awe of him. This

8:29

the tweet, his hodiness wishes

8:31

to apologize to the boy and his friends for

8:33

the hurt his words may have caused.

8:36

It wasn't the words, it's the actions

8:39

and yes it was the direction but it's the actions

8:41

and as Jim pointed out the part about

8:43

teasing people before he meets them in

8:46

an innocent and playful way. This

8:48

isn't teasing, this

8:50

was child abuse and we're all seeing

8:53

it

8:53

and I think what you say is actually very interesting

8:56

because I've listened and watched lots

8:58

of people's reactions to this and immediately

9:01

lots of people go to say well he

9:04

might have dementia or

9:06

this could be a cultural thing or he doesn't mean

9:09

it's sexually.

9:10

Well the word pedophile, pedo,

9:12

it means lover of children

9:14

and for me this is every pedophile's

9:18

out of it's not a sex act, this is

9:20

an act of love, this is care, this is affection.

9:24

So then we get into this really difficult

9:27

area. Well we have to

9:29

have clarity of what it means

9:32

to touch a child without permission. This

9:34

child did not consent and

9:37

for me the child's reaction, first reaction

9:39

was the right one. He recoiled,

9:41

he moved back and everything we talked about

9:44

with Stephen Mills and every

9:47

victim I've ever spoken with knew

9:49

the moment where something was wrong.

9:52

And then if other people are around they

9:54

look to other people to see their reaction and

9:56

if it's normalized, if it's as

9:58

people did on that video laugh.

9:59

then that gives this child

10:02

a skewed view and that

10:04

creates a bigger problem going forward. So

10:07

the grooming in plain sight for me is the issue

10:09

and the fact that he

10:10

didn't fear a consequence. Well,

10:13

if people say, well, maybe he's got dementia,

10:15

well, if he has, he shouldn't be around children.

10:18

This is the way he's going to behave. But

10:20

there's also a tradition in Buddhism that

10:23

there's this one-on-one transmission

10:25

where you go into a private room with

10:28

your guru, with whoever is the head of the monastery

10:30

or whoever, and you have a private

10:32

one-on-one transmission with a transmission

10:36

enlightenment to you. So that is very

10:38

much a part of the culture

10:40

there.

10:41

That's dangerous. Well, it's

10:44

certainly now looking back at

10:46

it as a former Buddhist, of course,

10:48

that seems horrible. At the

10:51

time when you're in it, you feel like,

10:53

oh, this is my special time. This is

10:55

when I'm going to hear the word of God or

10:57

the cosmos or universe

10:59

or something's going to be imparted

11:01

to me. Bad people will take advantage of that. Well,

11:03

exactly. Bad people will take advantage

11:05

of that. And just because you're a Buddhist

11:08

or a priest or a Jewish rabbi,

11:11

none of those people, none of those classifications

11:15

are immune from somebody with

11:17

intent to get access to kids or

11:20

vulnerable adults

11:22

for sexual assault. None

11:24

of those titles will prevent

11:26

that from happening. And so we have

11:28

to set up within these organizations

11:31

protections for vulnerable people.

11:34

And that means not allowing

11:36

that kind of thing to happen. And

11:38

as we know, Jim, these titles attract

11:41

these devious individuals. So

11:43

I'm not going to give the Dalai Lama a pass

11:45

here. I don't care who you are. And

11:47

for me, it doesn't matter that he's the Dalai Lama.

11:50

What I saw, I'm going to trust my own eyes.

11:52

I'm going to trust the child's reaction, even

11:54

though, by the way, he has spoken out the child

11:56

to say what an incredible experience it was.

11:59

But again, sometimes sexual

12:02

abuse victims do, right? They don't always

12:04

understand the transaction of what's happened

12:06

and everything Stephen told us.

12:08

You don't have the word sexual abuse or

12:10

child abuse in your

12:12

vocabulary. And I don't accept

12:15

his apology, as I said on social media, apology

12:17

denied. I want accountability.

12:20

And he hasn't owned, or his handler

12:23

has gaslit us in that non-apology

12:25

because there's no

12:27

talking about what actually happened. He

12:29

regrets the incident. He doesn't

12:31

regret forcing that child to kiss

12:34

him. And he doesn't regret

12:36

sticking his tongue into

12:38

the face of this child. He

12:40

just, he regrets

12:43

the incident. But this is... What's

12:45

that? Passive? Yeah. Not

12:48

taking any responsibility? And the fact that it

12:50

went viral, it suddenly appeared online.

12:52

I can tell you, it was only CNN who had

12:54

reported on it. Now, there's

12:57

lots more media coverage of it, but

12:59

nobody had reported on that apology.

13:01

So we've talked about it before. You can

13:03

have an apology and it's right to take ownership,

13:06

but it's the accountability piece

13:07

that's missing. And without

13:09

that accountability of what's to change,

13:12

that really bothers me, particularly in Child Abuse Prevention

13:15

Month when CNN had a panel,

13:17

right? And someone was defending him on the panel.

13:20

Why not have experts talk to it?

13:23

That's why we wanted to talk about

13:25

it because it is something lots of people are confused

13:28

about and you can reframe it of,

13:30

oh, well, it might be dementia. Well, if it

13:32

is, he needs care and he shouldn't

13:34

be in these positions where children

13:37

are being

13:37

put at risk. That's not

13:40

okay. And I say that as a parent, as a mom

13:43

of a toddler, would I accept

13:45

a stranger doing this to my son of

13:48

telling him to suck his tongue and

13:50

kissing him on the lips? Absolutely

13:53

not. But it's such an eye

13:55

opening experience for me to go through this

13:57

little thing because just saying anything

13:59

I guess.

13:59

a Dalai Lama to me just shrinks my

14:02

soul just based on my background. So

14:05

it's so telling. I mean, it just shows me

14:08

that that's how powerful these

14:10

people in these positions are,

14:13

that I would be the first one to be like, oh, he

14:15

didn't mean that. He didn't mean anything by that. And how

14:17

often have I railed against

14:19

other people defending

14:22

others in the exact same way?

14:25

So it's a very humbling experience for

14:27

me too. Well, it's a learning experience to know. I

14:29

mean, the fact is that you have pure

14:31

thoughts about it. So you weren't thinking

14:34

terrible things could happen in that situation, but we

14:36

all witnessed this and we all got that cringe

14:38

factor. And the reason why it

14:41

was so viral on the internet was because

14:43

of that cringe factor. And

14:45

for goofballs to say it's as

14:47

bland as a bowl of white rice, when

14:50

you have no training,

14:51

no experience, no

14:53

expertise in the air of child sexual victimization

14:56

or offenders behavior, then shut

14:58

the hell up because all you're

15:00

doing is setting up other kids to get

15:03

victimized. And I really, I'm serious

15:05

about this.

15:06

Offenders use this kind of material

15:09

to groom children. And that

15:12

is the worst ramification

15:14

of this. It's terrible that the kid had to go through

15:16

that. Hopefully he's

15:18

being helped and treated

15:21

properly and things are

15:23

being explained to him and he's going to get

15:26

some counseling if he

15:28

needs it. But the fact is

15:30

how that can be used now that it's in

15:32

zeitgeist

15:34

just makes me sick. But doesn't it remind

15:36

you of when Stephen Mills was talking to, in his book,

15:38

he talks about his offender, Dan Baronella

15:41

saying, Hey, the Greeks did this. The

15:44

Greek adult males and

15:46

children had sex together and it's

15:48

all put just part of being a man. I

15:50

mean, yeah. That's how it gets

15:53

normed. And that's the problem. In

15:55

that video, you can hear people laugh.

15:58

And that for me. We've

16:00

talked before, Jim, the reaction of other

16:02

people. It's really important.

16:05

So you have to have people who speak out and go

16:07

on your gut reaction and not allow

16:09

the mind to reframe with all the

16:12

reasons why they might've

16:14

done it.

16:15

You know, and I think this was a really important

16:18

one to talk about

16:20

because so many people felt conflicted

16:22

and felt very sick to their stomach,

16:24

just like you, Lisa, as I did watching

16:27

it. I couldn't quite believe my eyes. I thought it was

16:29

some kind of spoof or, and

16:32

some people were saying it was fake, but I did my due

16:34

diligence and it was not fake. Yes, it

16:36

happened in February, but it only just

16:38

came out and was posted online. And

16:41

the apology only came out on Monday.

16:43

So it did happen. That tells you even the reaction

16:46

of the, on Twitter, posting

16:49

that it happened. So why was the apology

16:51

so late? Why wasn't

16:52

it upfront as

16:54

and when it happened? Because like

16:57

you spoke out, you

16:59

said something, you know, people

17:02

who know, know that this was

17:04

wrong

17:05

and we need to talk about it. And that

17:07

is something that we have been saying since

17:10

we started real crime profile,

17:12

that we have to give the

17:15

people who are victimized by crimes, their voice

17:17

back, we can speak for that little

17:20

boy because he was

17:22

actually not in a position

17:25

to fight with the Dalai Lama.

17:27

He wanted a hug because he thought this

17:29

guy was going to help him spiritually.

17:33

And instead he

17:34

got mauled by the guy, you know, that's,

17:37

it's just, it's wrong. It's wrong.

17:39

And there was absolutely a power imbalance.

17:42

And that's what we should all look to, to understand

17:44

what's really going on. Who's holding the power? Who's

17:46

controlling the narrative? Because the

17:48

Dalai Lama and the team tried

17:51

to control the narrative and gaslight

17:53

us all in the process. So, no, don't look over here,

17:55

look over here. And I'm not going to

17:57

be one of those people who get sucked into it. I did

17:59

do a short.

17:59

YouTube video about

18:02

it. I felt so incensed and compelled.

18:04

You know, I think it's motherhood as

18:06

well that just makes me feel I have to be

18:08

a voice when others cannot. No

18:11

matter what that little boy says, we

18:13

still have to be the voice.

18:14

We thank you for doing that. Yeah,

18:17

for sure. Because I certainly was, I was,

18:20

in my internally, not externally, internally was like

18:22

I was defending it. Like, well, that's not,

18:24

he's just kind of child.

18:27

And it's like, no,

18:28

come on, come on. So was

18:30

Michael Jackson. Yeah, that's

18:32

exactly what I was thinking, Jim. I think it's just

18:35

the raffy in me coming out of, you

18:37

know, what,

18:39

if we turn a blind eye to that, who else

18:41

picks up on it, Jim, who else then uses

18:43

it and normalizes this and knowing

18:46

how devious sex offenders are, we know

18:48

who will and we know who gravitates to these positions.

18:51

So I thank you both for jumping

18:53

on to quickly talk about this very

18:56

short video clip, but a really important

18:59

conversation for us to have. And it is Child

19:01

Abuse Prevention Month. We all

19:03

have to speak out and speak up.

19:06

So thank you so much. And for

19:08

now, this is Real Crime

19:09

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