Episode Transcript
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0:07
Amy: What's up human. Welcome to the revenue real hotline.
0:10
I'm Amy Hrehovcik.
0:14
More importantly. I'm excited. You decided to join us today.
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I know you've got a ton of options and I appreciate you.
0:22
This is a show about all the hard and uncomfortable conversations
0:26
that arise while generating revenue and how to think or rethink what
0:30
you're doing, why you're doing it. And then of course, How to execute differently.
0:35
And like I said, I'm happy you decided to come along for the ride.
0:39
Don't forget to follow the show wherever you listen.
0:41
So you can be notified each time a new episode drops.
0:44
And do me a favor friend. Don't tell anybody about the show.
0:47
Let's keep it our little secret. I'm Amy Hrehovcik.
0:50
This is the revenue real hotline. Enjoy
0:56
AJ Alonzo. Welcome to the Revenue Real Hotline friend.
1:00
I appreciate you making time today. AJ: Yeah, I'm excited to be here.
1:03
Thanks so much for, for having me. Woo.
1:05
I'm excited to dig into a conversation.
1:08
Amy: So AJ to get started. Why don't you share with our listeners a little bit about who you
1:13
are and, and what you do every day. AJ: Yeah, so I, I currently head up marketing for demand drive.
1:18
I guess in my day to day, what we do is we build SDR teams for our clients.
1:23
So typically tech companies, they don't have a team they're
1:25
struggling to get one built out. They don't have the sort of foundational understanding of, of
1:30
what goes into building a team. So we swoop in.
1:33
Help with the recruiting and retaining of their reps and trading them up.
1:36
So my job every day is promoting that. And, and getting companies on board with our sales development
1:41
methodology and allowing them to, to modernize that function in a way.
1:46
Makes that sustainable and not just the classic cold calling factory
1:50
that you see from boiler room or Wolf of wall street, tile style stuff.
1:54
Mm. So that's, that's my that's my day to day is really helping
1:57
modernize the, the SDR function. Doing it for our clients.
1:59
And then preaching about it really on LinkedIn every second that I can and
2:03
trying to get more people on board. Amy: Well, I think the question that everyone is wondering right
2:06
now is do you give coffee to people that have not closed?
2:10
AJ: We, you know, it's funny. That's huge. We, we give out a lot of coffee.
2:14
We're actually under construction right now. Okay. So our cold brew machine is not working, but we used to give out
2:18
cold brew like it was nothing. Amy: Oh my gosh.
2:21
Pretty embarrassing. What? I wouldn't have done to get some cold brew.
2:23
Right, right. Three o'clock. Um, okay.
2:26
So AJ you recently wrote a book I believe.
2:28
AJ: Yeah. So the book is titled Aligning SDR Hiring Expectations with Modern Buyers.
2:33
Um, so for the past couple of years, I've been, I've been digging into some data and
2:37
stories around what teams really look for traits and skill-wise in hiring and SDR.
2:43
And that shift that we've had over the past, like five-ish years from the, you
2:48
know, gritty, tenacious, persistent rep to the more thoughtful, consultative rep.
2:54
And the skills associated with the reps that we have today that are seen success.
2:59
So it's a culmination of a lot of surveys and dozens of like interviews
3:03
with some different sales leaders. All wrapped up into an neat little package about what teams that are succeeding are
3:08
doing and what they're looking for today. And how you, as an SDR manager, hiring manager can, can shift
3:14
up some of your own practices. And if you're an SDR out there and you're reading it, like what you should
3:18
be working on to make sure that you are a viable candidate for any company.
3:22
So, yeah. Thanks. Thanks for letting me plug that. But I'm really excited to finally lift that weight off my shoulders of
3:27
basically two years of working on it. Amy: Yeah.
3:30
Go ahead and check that one right off the list. That must be amazing.
3:33
aligning SDR hiring practices with modern buyers.
3:37
What, what struck me about the title AJ, about the book?
3:39
And what I know about you is that the sentiment buyer sentiment
3:43
has, has shifted drastically mm-hmm , um, in the past 12 months.
3:48
But I don't see a lot of people talking about this particular thing.
3:52
And so I'm, I'm excited about that, but I guess before we get
3:56
too deep into it, I I've found.
3:59
When venturing into topics that people come in with a bunch of
4:04
opinions, experiences, mm-hmm, , you know, beliefs and all that jazz.
4:08
And so it helps to define some terms and give the other person a little bit of
4:13
context so that we can make sure we're, we're operating off of the same page.
4:16
You with me? AJ: Of course. Makes sense. I'm on the same Amy: page.
4:18
So. I personally am a little bit biased against the SDR model as
4:22
someone that was full cycle, right.
4:25
From the very beginning mm-hmm from a sales enablement perspective.
4:28
I think there's like when you're splitting apart, the role right
4:32
between prospecting and, and you know, the rest of selling, like.
4:35
If I'm just working with an AE that maybe was not responsible for
4:39
opening up their own leads, then have I really taught them how to sell?
4:42
Right. At an enterprise level. And so there's that right?
4:45
Um, I'm also, I see how, like the abuses that the SDR model has dished
4:51
out by way of dead bodies, right. That we burn through top performers and underperformers alike.
4:56
Um, in, in many instances it creates like a bunch, a lot of dependency.
5:00
However, I'm willing to concede that this is the way that it is now and
5:04
that there are instances where the model makes a great deal of sense.
5:10
Mm-hmm AJ: and somewhere it doesn't, I'll concede that as well.
5:13
Amy: So where are you coming from? What are you, what have your experiences been with, you know, this particular
5:18
topic and, and then we'll go from there.
5:21
AJ: Yeah. Um, I mean, I've seen it work in cases.
5:24
It should, I've seen it not work in cases where it shouldn't.
5:26
The idea that like there are companies built product wise to have an SDR team.
5:31
And there are companies that have a product where you don't need an
5:33
SDR and it's very transactional. You can rock the full cycle, AE role.
5:37
So, I mean, we've dealt with clients that have done both. I've dealt with companies that have done both.
5:41
And I think it's the method, the ideology shift from monkey to thoughtful
5:48
salesperson that is changing the tune of not every company needs an
5:53
SDR to every company could use an SDR regardless of where you are.
5:58
Okay. Amy: So one thing I wanna push back on, I'm like, I'm not a big believer
6:01
in the fact that like, this is this modern way of selling is brand new.
6:05
Right? In fact, it's, there's no, there's nothing new under the sun.
6:08
And in many ways I think that tech has done us great to service, right?
6:12
Because we've got this obscene filter bubble.
6:15
AJ: That's a good way to put it. Amy: And like tech has a bad habit of trying to like rebrand
6:19
something and put our name on it and call it like innovation, sales,
6:22
enablement, customer success. They had the account management model figured out on a pretty
6:27
exquisite scale everywhere else. But anyway, right.
6:29
I'm curious about something that you said about when is the SD a good fit
6:33
it's and you use the transactional sale versus a deeper enterprise sale.
6:40
And when the enterprise sale I missed. Assuming that what you were implying is that the AEs are too busy to
6:46
open up their own opportunities. And to explain when you believe that the SDR model makes a good fit.
6:53
Yeah. AJ: I think it's, it's a combination of like too busy and, and realistically, some
6:57
companies have not properly trained AEs to actually do the right work associated
7:03
with penetrating accounts at that level. Amy: Mm.
7:05
AJ: The amount of stakeholders that are needed to, to make a deal happen
7:09
is higher now than it ever has been. Amy: Agreed.
7:11
AJ: And a lot of AEs don't have in, in some cases the prospecting chops.
7:16
So to say, to like, be able to, to navigate that in a way that,
7:20
that I think SDRs are built to do.
7:23
Like the SDR model is built to be.
7:25
Multi threaded multi-channel in a way that I have not seen at least
7:29
traditional account management style, like AE roles at these.
7:34
Maybe not like full enterprise companies, but like SMB and above too.
7:37
It's just something I don't, I don't see that often.
7:39
There's almost a reliance on SDRs to do that dirty work.
7:42
And then for the AEs to take the glory. Amy: Hmm.
7:44
Again, very tech thing to do. So interesting.
7:47
Interesting. All right, so let's talk, problem statements.
7:49
Now talk in one sentence or less, what is wrong with the way
7:54
that SDR programs operate today?
7:59
AJ: I think the, the biggest Cardinal sin you would call it is that there's
8:04
a myth that more activity equals more revenue and that you can scale.
8:11
The number of dials or emails sent infinitely based on like the
8:16
conversion math that you have.
8:19
Um, whereas that. I, I just don't think that's the case.
8:22
Like if you, if you do the math and you do like your backwards waterfall
8:25
and you can forecast that every 2,500 activities that a rep puts in equals
8:30
like 10 closed one opportunities. It's not a guarantee that 5,000 activities equals 20 closed one opportunities.
8:37
It just doesn't scale like that. Due to the fact that like universes aren't.
8:41
You know, the, the number of people who are in market for your product, isn't
8:45
high enough for that to be possible. And the total universe of people you can sell to isn't high
8:49
enough for that to be possible. But a lot of teams operate on that belief.
8:53
And they pump bodies into seats that technically don't need to be filled.
8:57
And then they burn 'em out. And those people think, well, maybe sales isn't for me.
9:00
And they, and they look at other career opportunities. I, I think that's like the biggest issue that, that companies have with building
9:07
teams is that they'll put people in seats that don't need to be filled.
9:11
They'll burn out. The reps will think this isn't for me.
9:14
And the companies will think, well, the SDR function isn't working.
9:16
And so they look at alternatives.
9:18
When in reality, you can shrink your team down to a more manageable size.
9:23
Give them a little bit more autonomy or, or give them a, a little bit more.
9:28
Wiggle room when it comes to crafting their own campaigns or like building
9:31
outreach strategies and learning from the conversations that they're having.
9:35
And get a lot more out of that smaller team than just try to stuff an extra
9:40
amount of extra large amount of reps into a, a hole that it doesn't fit into.
9:44
Hmm. I Amy: think another way to say at least the beginning part of that.
9:48
Is that we there's an overreliance on activity.
9:51
AJ: A hundred percent. Amy: And zero connection between like the activity that's put into the results or
9:57
the effectiveness or the energy that's required to make those results happen.
10:01
Yes, we we're allowing our legacy beliefs to impede our
10:05
ability to move into the future. AJ: Yeah.
10:07
Amy: Gosh, there's so many different, fun ways to take this.
10:09
All right. So why do you think that most sales bosses, right?
10:12
Recall, I differentiate between sales later and sales boss.
10:15
Why do you think most sales bosses have settled for so little?
10:19
AJ: It's I think it's a combination of, if you look at SDR bosses, which I think is
10:23
a great term for it, not, not leaders, but the bosses, the people who are actually
10:27
like sitting there managing the teams. It's, it's what they grew up with.
10:30
Like they were brought up in a system where they.
10:34
A hundred percent tied to activity metrics as sort of like
10:37
that main driver of success. Because to them, the more activities they put in, the more
10:41
lease they were able to pass. It was a different time, more than likely when they were doing that job.
10:46
So for them, it's a holdover from what they thought was successful.
10:49
And they're trying to fit it into the current environment
10:52
where it, it isn't as successful. And momentum is, is really difficult to stop.
10:57
If you think this is working because it has worked in the past, it's a lot harder
11:01
to change that person's mind versus somebody who comes in new, who has not had
11:05
that experience, who hasn't grown up in that world to look at the situation and go
11:09
like, oh, we're actually doing this wrong.
11:12
We have too many people here. We're not focusing enough on the right things.
11:14
This is a binary outcome when in reality it should have a
11:17
bunch of different options. I think that's like the number one a if you would call it
11:21
of like why this is the case. Uh, and then one B, and this is a bit more of a new thing, but
11:27
managers don't stay around that. If you look at the tenure of someone who's managing an SDR team in a company they're
11:33
in there for like 13 months, 14 months.
11:35
Amy: Yeah. AJ: They build the function and then they get out and they do it again somewhere else.
11:39
And so they're not starting with a strong foundation in a lot of cases.
11:43
So it's up to them to build the function. So they, again, lean on what they know to start everything.
11:48
They build it up to a point where it's been successful.
11:51
But if you want to keep pushing, you have to start thinking about something other
11:55
than the traditional model that we know.
11:57
At that point, their foots halfway already out the door, looking at
12:00
a different opportunity at maybe a bigger company with a higher pay.
12:04
So they kind of just ditch this, this half built thing and
12:08
move on to something else. And then it becomes somebody else's problem.
12:11
Amy: Mm. Yeah. I believe tenure is 18 months and.
12:16
I'm smiling though. Cuz you gave them credit for a successful build out where I would
12:20
say that they, if it was successful and it was working, they would still
12:23
be there and they wouldn't leave. AJ: Right. I guess a non-sustainable build out.
12:27
Amy: Yeah. AJ: But definitely like some, some like early indicators of success to the point
12:31
where they can take it and then try to, to leverage that into a new position.
12:35
Right. If it was a total failure, they wouldn't be able to do that.
12:37
It would be a situation where it's like, oh, I tried to build this SDR function.
12:41
It didn't. Now I have to go find a new job and hope that this track record doesn't follow
12:45
me versus oh, look at the, these early success results that I got in the first
12:49
nine months of building this program. Let me use that.
12:52
Try to get a new job. I'm not saying everyone does it.
12:55
I'm just saying it's it does exist.
12:57
Amy: Yeah. Well, that's the system we, we want lookalikes.
13:00
And so the system. Around hiring, as I'm sure you can also speak to is built this way.
13:05
And so, you know, I don't begrudge anyone that. And also I've got a lot of newfound empathy for the plight of the sales
13:09
boss, but I do believe that just because you were molested as a
13:12
child does not mean that you should grow up in and molest children.
13:16
Um, and I'm also reminded though about our experience.
13:20
We have to be careful about our experience. Especially the experience that brought us results.
13:24
Even if that results are, you know, Abysmal win rate comparatively.
13:29
Anything lower than 50% is just, there's a lot of room
13:32
for improvement there, friends. And anybody that's saying or sharing differently is, is, is misinformed.
13:37
But anyway, AJ, so experience. I'm reminded that sometimes our experience is the very thing that keeps us from
13:45
being able to think outside the box.
13:48
AJ: Mm-hmm Amy: and it's, it's extra hard to walk away from something that we know works.
13:53
Even if what works air quotes is a very, very low conversion
13:58
rate almost at every point on the map, then trying something new.
14:02
But at the same time, like I'm thinking back to this problem
14:04
statement here on the sales boss side. And one of the things that was the hardest for me when I transitioned
14:09
to sales enablement after carrying a bag for 10 years, was realizing how
14:14
pervasive the thinking was about sellers.
14:16
We are not problem solvers.
14:19
We are selfish, right? Sales don't make good managers.
14:21
We, um, our cogs, or we need somebody needs to fix us.
14:25
Like, well, all that. I did not realize how pervasive that thinking was from behind
14:30
the scenes on our own team. Right. I knew that we're the second least trusted profession out there.
14:35
Yeah. I totally get that. I would expect it everywhere else, but I would've thought that we
14:38
would've been safe with our own
14:41
AJ: yeah. People who know what it's like, they, they have that peak behind the curtain
14:45
Amy: and I was very wrong. Yes. Okay. And so when I think about the root cause problem with the current way that we treat
14:51
our SDRs is the way that we think about our SDRs and believing what is possible.
14:58
And then I would even add to that, right?
15:01
A person has to be trying very hard, not to look at where the
15:04
root cause of like productivity and performance actually live today.
15:08
For example, happiness and autonomy are two massive parts of that.
15:13
And when you're aspiring to build out a team where you're gonna tell
15:17
everyone what to do down to the day in task, it's not sustainable.
15:21
What I will say about right now, AJ, about this moment in time is
15:24
that people are calling bullshit and they're comparing notes.
15:27
AJ: It's great. It's it's, it's not like about time.
15:31
Because I think it has been happening over the past few years where
15:34
maybe it's not that full I'm call.
15:36
Yeah. Bullshit publicly. But you, I mean, small circles of people within different industries
15:41
have been realizing like this isn't the way it should be.
15:43
Like to your point, we look at the SDR role as like a stepping
15:47
stone into the AE position. And if that's all you think they are, that's all they're ever gonna be.
15:52
But if you can imagine that they are something else and that they
15:55
can lend their talents elsewhere. Uh, I was an SDR at one point in my career and I moved into marketing
16:00
and I credit that because of a lot of the skills that I built as an SDR.
16:04
And because the company that I worked for believed that I can make that.
16:09
I could make that jump. A lot of companies don't.
16:11
They, they look at the SDR role and they're like, listen, either you're
16:14
gonna be an AE here, or you're gonna find a different job somewhere else.
16:17
And that, that little box that we create for those reps, it isn't sustainable.
16:22
But like people aren't calling it out now and they're like, that's not.
16:25
The way it should be. There are so many other avenues that this world can go and we
16:29
need to start thinking about that. That call out for bullshit.
16:31
I think now is yeah. Louder than it ever has been, which is, I love it.
16:35
Sales communities online have been fostering this discussion
16:38
for like the past year. And I feel like it's hitting that boiling point and now it's just out.
16:42
Amy: Oh yeah. It's about to go big time. Um, Well said, well said, all right, AJ, how can people find you and where,
16:49
where can people check out this new book? AJ: Um, yeah, so I I'm on LinkedIn a lot.
16:54
Uh, you can find me on LinkedIn, AJ Alonzo.
16:56
I think I'm probably the only AJ Lonzo on there.
16:59
Uh, and then also demand drive.com.
17:02
I've got a bunch of stuff there and that, that is where the book is under our resources section.
17:05
Aligning SDR Hiring Practices with Modern Buyers.
17:08
That, and any other content that I've probably ever produced in my
17:11
professional career is on there somewhere. Amy: Amazing, amazing.
17:14
And people and your podcast. AJ: Yes.
17:16
Oh yes. So our, um, Host a podcast it's called unsubscribe.
17:22
It's, uh, it's to help you get less unsubscribe emails in
17:25
your inbox, it's a salesperson. So we, um, it's also, it's on demand.
17:29
drive.com/podcast episodes.
17:31
I didn't wanna make it slash unsubscribe cause that has a whole
17:35
host of issues with our email servers.
17:37
Um, but unsubscribes, the name of the podcast we bring on sales experts to
17:41
talk about things they're passionate. Things that they know have helped them get less unsubscribed emails on their inbox.
17:47
And level up the profession. So learn from a bunch of different people who have been on the show.
17:51
Um, you can find that on the website as well. Amy: AJ, you rock.
17:55
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for making time for us today, friend.
17:57
AJ: Yeah, thanks for having me. Had a blast Amy: that wraps another installment of the revenue real hotline I'd like to thank my.
18:10
For being so damn real and for sharing their insights and for,
18:14
of course being so much fun. And I'd like to thank you two listeners, it means the world.
18:19
And I appreciate you. If you have any thoughts or comments or experiences, you feel inclined to share
18:25
head straight over to revenue, real.com.
18:27
There's a new join. The conversation feature on the right side of the page.
18:31
I am all damn ears. Final thought.
18:33
We are introducing a coaching aspect to the show.
18:37
So anyone who's brave enough to dig into an account strategy
18:40
or outbound strategy sesh.
18:43
That's where we kick things off. Please do follow the show wherever you listen to your podcasts.
18:48
So you'll always have the latest episode downloaded.
18:51
If you want to contact me, I'm at Amy revenue, rail.com.
18:55
If you wanna follow me on social. Twitter is Amy underscore UFF check, and LinkedIn is linkedin.com/amy UFF check.
19:03
This episode was produced by the fabulous Neen Feedler rock man.
19:08
And I appreciate you too friend. And of course, whatever you do.
19:12
Don't tell anybody about the show.
19:14
Let's keep it our little secret until next time.
19:17
All I'm Amy Hrehovcik. This is the revenue real hotline, happy selling.
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