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Alex (00:01) We are finally live with Robin from Trust Roofing. Robin is very inspirational character and something that really struck me is somebody that is, you know, two years older than me at 26, he's making over 18 million and is somebody that Robin Scherer (00:18) Well, the company does 18 million gross, but yeah. Alex (00:19) Yeah, but you are the owner. So you are the one who built it and managed everything, which is truly impressive. Right? I mean, it's not a common thing in roofing and many people are actually interested in your story, especially some of my clients. They're very interested in your retail model and your processes and how you run the company and how you made it that successful that fast. Because you told me you were making, in 2020 you made $400,000 and in 2023 you made over 16 million. So how does somebody go from below million to multiple millions in just three years? Can you talk me through that? I mean, it's very exciting, right? And it's especially valuable for somebody like me who wants to start a roofing company at some point as well, because I believe it's a very, very... Yeah, yeah. But yeah, I mean, it's a construction or roofing business, but you know, I'm still learning the topics and this is why I have this podcast, right? To talk about Robin Scherer (01:04) You want to start a roofing company too? Oh, I didn't know that, that's cool. Alex (01:17) but also learn from you guys that are extremely successful in your branches of business. Robin Scherer (01:23) Very, very cool, man. Yeah, so we did, first of all, thank you for having me on. I appreciate it, appreciate the time. It'd be cool, we'll cover a lot of fun topics, hopefully provide some value to people. I think it's cool that you're starting a podcast. That's awesome, and I'm glad to be a guest. So yeah, last year in 2023, we did 18 million in revenue. We started the company in 2020, so that was like our first year. We did about 400 grand. We didn't start, I didn't have my license and all my liability insurance, workers comp, everything all ready to go until about. April is when we did our first job in 2020. So that was a half of a year. But I guess to give a little background on me, I started in the roofing industry very early on. My dad owned a roofing company in the LA area in California since 1983 is when he started. He was working out there even in the 70s. He started on the roof and that's where he came from. So when I was about 15 years old, I dropped out, or I didn't drop out, I left high school. I ended up getting my GED but. I wasn't very good at school. I didn't like school. That wasn't my thing. So my dad offered me an opportunity. He said, hey, we should get you busy, get you productive. You can work for my roofing company, right? So I didn't want to at first. I wasn't a very productive individual in my teens, as a lot of us can go through that. But so I said, okay, I'll give it a shot. So I started roofing for him. So I did, my very first job was just quality control checking his commercial sites after they were done. checking for accuracy of my TPO welds, stuff like this. I started doing repairs, maintenances. Then eventually I was on a commercial crew of his installing TPO roofs on apartment buildings and stuff like this. And I did that out in LA. Eventually I was the foreman of that, of like a six man crew. So I did that until I was about 22 years old in the LA market. He was always a small mom and pop company, right? He had a couple of employees always or operated out of his garage. He wasn't the kind of guy who really liked to reinvest in his business. He kind of just always kept it small and it always worked. It was a good model that he had. So anyway, then my mom and him, two of my brothers live here in Florida in the Tampa Bay area. So we decided to move over here, right? So we moved over and we decided, let's do a roofing company in Florida. We still have the LA one, but let's do one here in Florida. So we started that in 2020. I got my license. That was a whole procedure. Starting it off, there was never a goal. There was not a goal to be what we are today when we started. When we started, the goal was to just kind of do a model like his. I would sell the jobs and then I would go on the roof and I would do the roofing. I started off with, I did the first one with my nephew, I remember, and then I got three or four guys together and we were just going up and doing the roofs. I would sell it, I would roof it, I would sell it, I would roof it. And that's how we did it for the first couple years. To start off, there wasn't an idea of scaling or creating this big of a company at first. Alex (04:16) So what is exciting, you know, the humble beginnings, right? Usually most of the contractors, depends on who you ask, you know, are more of a type like you, who is ready to scale to indefinite depths, right? But there are some people who are satisfied with what they are. And from what you said, it seems that your father was more of a local type, stuck to what works and stuck to have enough for you and the family, right? So how come that somebody like you? goes from starting his own company getting the license and goes from $400,000 in revenue to $18 million in just three years. How does somebody... Yeah. Robin Scherer (04:54) Yeah, it's a good question. What happened for me was a couple of fold. So I'm up on these roofs and I'm roofing away with my guys, right? And I love, I love roofing. Like I love the install process and I love taking care of the client in front of me. I love taking the client, selling them the job and just doing an incredible job for them and having them really happy at the end. Like I love nothing more. And I also grew to love running and training my guys, like my crew that was under me. And you know, that was my staff at first. I didn't have any sales guys, I didn't have any office people. I just had my crew of guys. And I loved training them and loved running them. So I started to fall in love with these aspects of the business. And then on the backside, like I'm watching YouTube videos, I'm watching like Roofing Insights YouTube videos, I'm watching like entrepreneurial video, like I'm just kind of watching and researching and looking at the industry as a whole. And another thing that I noticed, just looking around me as this really small company is I see like private equity coming in. I see the roofing market, roofing is very segmented. There are just thousands and thousands and thousands of these small roofing companies and then now there's like private equity coming in and trying to kind of consolidate it is what I saw. So I was like, okay. If I'm really small when that happens, then there might not be a place for me in the market to be this super small company. I could get pushed out by bigger guys, right? It's just a reality that could happen. So I was like, okay, I don't wanna be that because I feel like there's a place in this market for a really good model that puts the client first, just wants to take care of the client and wants to put attention, a big thing for me always, was on the labor side of it because I believe that that's what I was selling. I was selling a really good roof install. And that's where I put most of my attention. And I feel like that's a place that a lot of roofing companies go wrong on, is they put a lot of attention on just the sales and the marketing, but not enough attention on the roof and with the client on install day, because at the end of the day, that is what they're actually purchasing for you. So I saw that and I felt like there was a spot for my model in the industry and in the business. But I felt like being so small, there was that chance of just getting swallowed up. The other thing for me is. it wasn't something I could continue to do because literally I was on the roof with my guys for anywhere from 10 to 12 hours a day, and then I was running the appointments, I was sending the deals, I mean, I was wearing a lot of hats. My mom was helping me in the back end in the office, she was a huge help, but I mean, it was just too much. I was wearing all of the hats, I could not do it anymore like that. So, you know, I decided to set out in scaling it and decided to go on that journey with the idea that there was a place in the market for a company that really put attention on the work, on the workmanship, and on the actual roofing side of things. So that was like always my model, was gonna be in-house crews, we do retail. And I decided to scale it, and that's kinda where it started, that was the idea. The first step in scaling it was to start adding some sales reps. We got an office, I purchased an office and a warehouse to start stocking materials. And then we went for it, I mean we went. Alex (07:41) Mm-hmm. Bye bye. Robin Scherer (07:53) It went faster and crazier than I could have in my wildest dreams at the time. It was really, really wild, honestly. But I feel like the reason for it and the reason we were able to do it is because again, just the intention on the simple things. Taking care of each client in front of us one by one. That was always our intention. And we're far from perfect, right? We haven't been perfect for every client. But that's our intention is to get there and to do that. So when that's your intention and that's what you're trying to do and you work at it hard, it's hard to not have a snowball effect start to go on where you're able to build something out because that's the magic in entrepreneurship, I feel like, and in capitalism is truly, if you take care of the clients the best, you will grow and you can win. It's very hard to do that though. It's easy to say take care of the clients, but all of the little pieces that go into training your team, getting the business, doing the business, dealing with stuff is a lot to go into it. Alex (08:52) Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's the main thing that I strive my company as well. Right. You know, it's all about the customer relationship. Right. Uh, if you provide a good service, that's worth millions of dollars. You know, even if you take some losses, uh, you know, you'll, you'll actually grow way further, you know, for example, with all my clients to tell them, you know, when you're going to a work site, you know, bring some donuts, you know, feed their dog, play with their dog, play with their children, right. If they are. on the site, you know? Show that you are human, that you are not here just because of the money, you know? Of course, we do everything for the money and it's a business after all, right? We do it to live. But you need to show some human aspect, you know? And unfortunately, why people usually hire local guys is because these guys are not corporate, right? They are actually taking care of them and are building onto that. And to me, it seems that you have built something that still has insane, you know, customer customer relationship while actually scaling it to the heights of corporate, you know, big companies. Robin Scherer (09:52) Yeah. And something you said a moment ago struck me a little bit and this is just my opinion on it. But like, okay, building this company, of course I do it for the money, for the revenue. Like I wanna grow, I have big dreams, I have big goals. Like of course. But at the same time, you know, there's only so much money that one needs. Like where I'm at in life, I mean, I'm just a relatively happy person. I feel like I can have the things I want relatively and I'm able to live a happy life. Once you get to that point, Alex (10:07) Absolutely. Robin Scherer (10:22) then there starts to be more to it. And I feel like the guys who are the most successful, whether it be in roofing or in any industry, you start to find and figure out purposes and goals and reasons why you're doing things that are more than just the money, right? Like for me, it's huge, huge. Like I have a huge passion in building my team and seeing them succeed. Like the fact that I'm able to have my sister who's like 24 just crushing it. in roofing sales. I mean, this chick at 24 years old is making more than most adults. I mean, really, we're just crushing it, right? I have an 18-year-old gal who sells roofs for me, and she just absolutely crushes it with the system that I've tried to give her and the training I've tried to impart, and then she just goes out and does the work. So being able to give those opportunities and train my team for me is huge. I love it. I have a passion for it. That makes me really happy. And then the other aspect. Alex (10:51) Oh well. Oh. Robin Scherer (11:17) is just getting out there doing a really good job for clients. Because in the roofing industry, it's unfortunate, but this is a really big ticket item, like our average ticket's like 20K or so in residential. And in commercial, we're talking about hundreds of thousands of dollars, right? And for me, they're still in this industry, despite that high of a ticket price, there are players and there are roofing companies, it's a minority, but who just don't do, unfortunately, in my opinion, a good enough job. Alex (11:29) Absolutely. Robin Scherer (11:43) and who don't stand by and behind their work and their promises enough. Like I still all the time will get phone calls. Oh, I got my roof done three years ago. Yeah, it was under warranty, but they're not calling me back or they're out of business or they're not helping me. Like things like this still a lot of. So when I see that I'm like, okay, this is the industry that I love is what I grew up in. You know, I don't wanna see that happening. I wanna try to be part of raising the bar in the industry toward more professionalism. and just toward a better customer experience and journey. And again, I think that the vast majority of guys of roofing companies are good players who really do have the client's best intention at heart. It's a minority who, you know, it's a little bit rougher, I would say, but I wanna be part of really raising that bar and setting the standard higher in the industry. So for me, that's important is finding a purpose, finding what you're doing it for and goals that are beyond just the money. Because the money, like, you can be incredibly, incredibly wealthy, and you can be incredibly unhappy. And like me, I mean, I'm happy now, and I was happy when I was 18 years old, and I didn't have as much income coming in or whatever, right? So that's like happiness, it's a mindset thing. Not necessarily that the money, you know, it can help, but it isn't the only thing, so. Alex (12:52) Absolutely. Yeah, so what I, you know, I really, you know, understand what you meant by that, simply because humans by nature, they're greedy. There's never enough, you know, some of them, some of them, but by nature, humans are always greedy and want more, you know, and it's very good that you found an amount that is satisfying you and it makes you happy, right? Because it's all about this battle of having more. It really depends from person to person. Robin Scherer (13:11) Yes. It's a comparison trap. If you are comparing yourself to others, you will never, in my opinion, really find happiness because there's always someone who's going to maybe have more or have something that you don't have and that maybe you want. or whatever, or even the opposite way, trying to compare yourself to people who maybe you think are lower than you for some reason and think, oh, then I'm, like, you're never gonna be happy doing that. The only way that I found for myself is compare myself to A, who I was, and B, who I wanna be, and really that you're the person to work for. When I'm 50 years old and I look backwards, am I proud of myself and what I did and the actions that I took and in the person that I was and the things that I accomplished? Alex (14:03) Yep. Robin Scherer (14:16) Did I do what I set out to do? Did I do what I wanted to do? Was I the person I wanted to be? Right, making yourself proud and only comparing yourself to yourself. And that's a trick, because if you're comparing yourself to others around you, it's really hard to be happy, I feel like. Alex (14:20) Yeah. Absolutely, I mean that's the whole thing. It's impossible. It's impossible to compete because there is always going to be somebody better than you. And I think what you said is it's all about Kaizen. Robin Scherer (14:35) And even better, even better is relative because it's like, okay, they're better, but you know, it's like they're where they're at and you're where you're at. And that's okay. We're all on a journey, right? As long as we're all, you know. Alex (14:38) Yeah. Yeah. I absolutely love your mindset. It's a very humble mindset for somebody who is 26 years old. I wouldn't say that I'm talking to 26 years old with this sort of wisdom. I would think that somebody who is around 50 has such wisdom and it's good to me why you actually succeeded the way you did because you are very humble person who actually strives to make our world a better place than just thinking about your own pockets. It's all about providing really good customer support and I want to touch to these words that you said, right? Do not compare others to yourself, right? I believe that we all should follow something that is called Kaizen, continuous self-improvement and always strive to be 1% better each day, right? Compare yourself to who you were yesterday, not to somebody that is like 50 years old because they had their time, just do better for your own. Robin Scherer (15:34) Yes. Alex (15:46) I definitely love the mindset, right? It's something, you know, and something that is interesting topic to everybody, you know, mindset is extremely important. Customer support is extremely important. And this is something that I strive to do just like you, but, uh, you mentioned something that struck me because most of my roofing companies that I work for and work with, uh, hire subcruise. So subcruise, and you mentioned that you actually have, uh, 70 V2 employees and it's almost all in house labor. So. Is there any benefit to having all in house labor? Is it cheaper? Is it better? And if it is better, how does somebody do it like you? Robin Scherer (16:25) necessarily say that it's cheaper. And the reason I wouldn't say that it's cheaper is because number one, I'm paying all of the payroll tax. I'm paying the legit workers comp. I mean, I'm paying the liability insurance, like on the whole thing. And a lot of guys do that when they sub too, but some of them, they sub and the sub has a workers comp policy and the sub actually doesn't pay the workers comp. So in reality, the system is getting hijacked and the workers comp is going out. And here's the thing. I'm not like the guy who thinks that, oh, all of that is, whatever, but I am the guy who's like, hey, I'm paying If I'm building this business, I want it to be protected. In order for it to be protected, it has to be as legal as possible. So I try to do things in a legal way whenever I can, as much as humanly possible. So in-house crew and in-house labor is the way to do that the most for me. The reason I say it's not cheaper necessarily is because when people subcontract, like let's say I'm subcontracting you for this job, it's a lot easier to say, oh, well you made this mistake, this mistake, this mistake, I'm holding all that from your check. Now I still do that with my in-house guys, I hold them accountable, right? But there's a little bit of a difference because when I hire somebody in-house, I'm working to develop a relationship with these guys and with these crews. And it's harder to just do that on their paycheck every single time. It's more of a journey you're on with them. So I would definitely not say that it's cheaper. Also, it takes a lot more management, right? Because I'm doing all of the management of each of these personnel, each of these crews and individuals. So there's a lot of moving parts. What I do on my in-house labor is I still have a foreman who's in charge and I kind of give him HR authority. So that foreman is saying who he wants and who he doesn't want and kind of controlling his team. So I'm still making him responsible for that. That way from an HR standpoint, I'm not having to figure out the turnover on the crews. That's a lot. So the foreman still take care of that. But the number one thing about in-house labor is, here's the thing. Alex (18:04) Absolutely. Robin Scherer (18:08) When I'm selling roofs to clients, right? I'm selling, again, that physical install. I'm selling the materials and the labor. That's all that I'm selling, right? And then the warranty and the process behind it, right? And the insurance. So most of what I'm selling is that physical install. So if I don't control the labor, then a lot of what I'm selling for them I'm trusting to somebody else. Now that can work, right? Because you can have a sub, or your partner who does a really good job, it's fine. But... I don't see how I can get as good of a process and good of an install that way as if I control that actual means of production, which is that labor force. Because when they're working for me, that means they're working for trust roofing. They're working for our culture. They're working for me and what I say we need to do and our intentions and stuff like this. So they're getting behind the culture. And that's key. Like I have crews who've worked for us for a year and a half, two years, right? And when you have someone who's working for you, a crew for a year and a half, two years, the culture, it takes time to put it in. I can't get someone behind a culture in a week. It's just not gonna happen. But after a year, a year and a half, things can start to click where they're like, okay, this is how we wanna do things. This is our standard, et cetera. Down to the little things like how we tarp the ground, how we nail the shingles, how presentable we are, how timely we are, right? and things like this, and you develop a relationship with these crews, and then the crews go farther and do more for the clients, I feel like, because of that long-term relationship with the company. Whereas if I'm just constantly churning around different labor forces and different guys, it's harder to do that. Now some guys who sub out, they still have sub crews who have been working for them and they partnered with for many years. So in that way, you can still achieve that with a sub crew model, it's not like you can't. but I just know that I really feel like, you know, actually having that labor force as a part of my team and a part of our actual company structure, it just makes it easier for me to feel like I'm controlling the end result of my client. And I always wanna be able to be the guy who's fully responsible and in control of the process. So if I control the labor, there's no other fingers to point other than at myself. And for me, I kind of like that. So there's pluses and minuses. It's a lot harder to manage, I would say. It's, you know, definitely, I wouldn't say it's cheaper, but I feel like if done right, it can be a better end product for the client. And, you know, especially in like my retail model, what I'm doing, because the retail model is all about customer service, you know, what your process is like. So I feel like I'm able to build more value too in my sales process because of the fact that we do that. Alex (20:44) So, you mentioned that your sister does very well in the sales, with the sales processes that you gave her, right? Could you share your sales process? And obviously, if not, because maybe it's a secret, company secret, could you give some tips to the older roofing companies that struggle with sales? Because there is a company that they currently work for, I won't name them, but I've been told by the owner that... Robin Scherer (20:57) No. There's... Alex (21:10) We got them nine deletes in the last month, right? However, he said he's pissed because he missed on a lot of sales because his sales guys were not good enough. So do you have any, any tips and processes that some company could use to achieve success that you may have in just three years? Robin Scherer (21:28) Yeah. Number one, gonna go back with something you said, like whether I wanted to share a secret or something. I don't have any secrets. None of the what I do is secret. Like you can go onto YouTube and you can learn anything about what I do or how I do it or whatever. My model is really simple. My model is try to figure out how to take care of the employee and take care of your clients. Those are the two main keys in business, your employees and your client. If you take care of those two, you'll end up with a good brand. If you end up with a good brand. in a good company, you will succeed, right? So that's my model. There's nothing complex about it, and I don't really have any secrets necessarily. Going backwards though to that gentleman who you work for, that owner who said that he had all these leads, and they went out and... their sales guys couldn't sell them and their sales guys weren't good enough. What I would do if I'm that owner is I would look in the mirror because I'm the guy, you know, at the end of the day as an owner, we're the guy who hires these guys and we're the guy who trains these guys. So it's on us. Either we didn't hire the right people or we didn't train them right or both. But you have to figure out which one of those it was and then fix that, right? And it can be challenging and I understand, I've had sales guys where I feel like, man, they missed that deal and man, and it's human nature to wanna point the finger at something else. 100% is and I'm not, I still do it all the time and I have to catch myself, right? But when you're the owner, you're taking ownership, right? You own it, so you gotta figure out, okay, what did I do wrong here? Did I not hire someone who was qualified? Did I not train them right? If I don't know how to train them, how do I figure out how to train them? How do I learn, right? These are the steps you have to take. So that's what I would recommend and urge that person or anyone to do is running into that situation. But to go backwards, like what is my sales process like? That's a good question. Our sales process, we don't really have scripts. We don't have like, oh, you have to exactly say this or exactly do that. We have more, I would say, like, I guess frameworks would be a good word for it, like the standard way, the way we like to go about things. And the way that I look at sales is sales is an educational process. Sales is an empathetic process. Sales is understanding what that person in front of you, that homeowner, because each one is different, or that building owner, understanding what they need and want. What are their concerns? What's their ideal company for this project? What's their ideal outcome? Understanding that, you have to fully understand that. And then, on your end, communicate to them about your company, your process, your products, and how you can take them to that outcome. I mean, that's the simplicity of sales. That's really all that it is. So a lot of it is asking a lot of questions to understand what they need and want, because one customer might be really value heavy, right? Like they really understand value and they want the best job from the best company, they don't want anything to go wrong. And another client might be really budget oriented. That might really be what matters to them. And sometimes as a company, you might not be able to fit their needs and you might not be a good fit. And it's important to understand that too. But if you can understand what they need and want and then you're able to communicate how your company can do that, then it also just comes down to do they like you? Are you a likable person? Because people buy from people who they like. And in order to be more likeable, again, listen to them more. Don't talk as much. Understand them, find out about them, what they need. People who listen like that or more empathetic tend to be more likeable, I find. So that's kind of like it for us. I mean, one thing also is speed. I find it's very important in sales. So when the customer first calls, we pick up the phone right away. And that sounds basic, but it's important. If you get a lead, you wanna be calling that lead within 30 seconds. That's your time frame, 30 seconds. If it's more than five minutes, then you are missing an opportunity, period. End of story, right? Because in order to make that incredible first impression, like when I get a lead and I call it within 30 seconds, they're like, wow, this company's incredible. And what you're doing is you're setting the bar, you're setting the pace for how they should expect the rest of the process to be. So everything you do in the service industries, it's gotta be quick, it's gotta be speedy. Alex (25:13) Yep. Robin Scherer (25:34) So, you know, once you take that call or you do it, then we book an appointment within 24 hours, right? We want to be quick. Once we see them, once we're talking to them, like for us, we're able to do roof replacements within two weeks, repairs we're able to do quicker. So we make it so we don't have long timelines because again, people want things quick, people want things fast and easy. This convenience is huge. Alex (25:45) Bye bye. Speed wins. Robin Scherer (25:55) So anything that you can do to build that in and make your company easier to do business with, I would say is vital. And anything you can do as an owner, what are you doing for your sales team to provide value? Why would the customer go with you? I remember when we first were starting here, the name of our company wasn't Trust Roofing, we didn't have this brand yet, we started this brand. We were originally T&G Roofing and we switched to Trust Roofing about two years ago. And when we would try to sell roofs for T&G Roofing, with no Google presence, very little word of mouth, not a brand out there. It was so much more challenging than selling Roost now with like the brand we've created. So I would ask, and I would say there's a lot of importance in building value in your brand, building value in your processes, building value in who your company is and what you guys do, and that'll make it a lot easier for the sales reps to get out there and sell. Alex (26:45) Man, Robin, you are dropping some golden nuggets today. And we are only like 28 minutes in and you have been giving everything that I told to, tell to all my, you know, roofers that come to be interested for Roofers Edge, right? So what we do for them, because it's so important to have this 30 second call. We install the call center, we install AI automations that actually respond to them as soon as the lead comes through, right? And it's so important that... Robin Scherer (26:50) Ha ha. Alex (27:12) everything you said, you know, because speed wins, you know, people don't have attention spans anymore, right? Because of the TikTok and everything, right? So average human nowadays has around eight seconds attention span. And if you're not fast enough, they'll forget. So I have the clients who actually call the leads one or two hours after it's too late. Like how Google works, I can do the Google ad for you. But if you don't have somebody who is going to pick up the phone and call right away, this guy is already scrolling. on Google to the next page, looking at your competitor. Robin Scherer (27:44) He's already right. The problem is they'll get three or four other quotes. They might do that anyway, but if you're really quick and you're the first person they reach out to, you might end up being the only quote that they get because they're just like, hey, these guys are great. Alex (27:56) Yeah, exactly. I mean, that's the thing. Many people think, you know, this marketing company is going to run my ads, you know, I'm going to get the leads. It's so cool and dandy. But if your processes, sales, or the way you do business is not good enough, then there is nobody else to blame but yourself. You need to have these processes installed and in place if you're hiring marketing, because marketing can close you the sales, you know, I know marketing, but I don't have enough knowledge about the roofing. and the processes that need to be installed because we're not a roofing company or a roofing coaching company. We are a marketing company. We're going to get you the leads, but it's up to you to convert them and convince the customer that you are the right choice. People think, if I hire a marketing company, everything is going to be cool. I'm going to be rich. I don't need to do anything. It's a wrong mindset. That's something that everybody needs to work on and focus on. I mean... You told me the best, best yet, right? I definitely, yeah, it's so amazing. Right. So, to touch back to the marketing, can you talk me through that? Because you're a younger guy and I know that you work with Tim Hook. So why did you decide to go with Tim Hook? And why do you think Tim Hook has the reputation he has? Right. Because I would go on all these groups and everybody recommends him. You know, why Tim Hook? And what's somebody that, you know, does marketing like me, what should we do to become the next steam hook? What? Yeah. Robin Scherer (29:26) Yeah, it's a- Oh, you're your company? That's a good question. I mean, the reason I went with him is because he was highly recommended in the roofing space. Someone I saw on Roofing Insights seemed highly recommended, right? He's niched, they're niched into roofing. So whenever someone's niched, like that kind of tells me, okay, they put a lot of time and energy and attention on servicing that niche of roofers. Alex (29:37) Next record. Robin Scherer (29:52) So whenever that's the case, that's a really good thing. So I saw that in that company. They were definitely not like a budget option, right? Like they are a premium marketing agency for sure. But I knew what I wanted to do and I knew what I wanted to build and I knew the value in having a good website and a good Google Ads team and SEO team working on my Google and SEO. And I knew the amount of work I was gonna put in on the ground with the sales team. out on the appointments, et cetera, and I knew I could do the work to make that make sense. So, you know, I felt like, I don't know, I felt like it was a safe option because he's worked with a lot of other roofing companies that agency has, and a lot of them have seen success. And definitely they've done a great job, and we've been able to scale. I started with him. in 2022, end of 2022. I think in like 2023, they started running the ads, maybe in the beginning. But I've definitely been able to scale with them. They've been excellent. So. Alex (30:59) So on average, how many leads does Tim Hook get to you? I mean, maybe you don't need to tell me details because maybe it's some sort of a secret. For example, my clients, one in Alabama spends around 4,000 on each and the client in Denver spends 2,000 on each. So how much does your company spend to generate the results that you are satisfied with? Robin Scherer (31:18) Yeah. Yeah, that's a good question. We're at about 2.5% of gross, a little less, like 2 to 2.5% of gross is toward our marketing. Alex (31:32) And that would be around close to what, 500,000? Robin Scherer (31:37) It's a little bit less than that. It's like 350 in that range. Yeah. Alex (31:42) Exactly. I mean, that's the main thing, you know, the topic, right? Many people who get into marketing and they pay the marketers, they expect that all these engines are skill-based. Yes, there is some sort of the skill, but how to beat everybody in your space? You just overpay them. You just put the budgets high enough so the competition can get to you. You know, I mean, it sounds stupid, but... Alex Hormozzi actually mentions that, you know, the only way you can beat the competition without any effort is by outbidding them. And people don't understand that these engines all operate on bidding. The more you bid, the more you get. And that's a very important lesson. I mean, you just said yourself, you spend $500,000 on marketing. Is it only? Yeah. Robin Scherer (32:25) Not quite 500, we're a little under that. That would be 5%. We're like 300, we're a little less than that. But one thing I was gonna say that's very important is marketing is expensive, like you said, right? And in order to be the top of Google and in order to be that pay-per-click ad that's at the top, it's gonna be expensive. It's gonna cost a lot of money. Alex (32:32) Mm-hmm. Robin Scherer (32:45) So knowing that and understanding as a business owner that marketing is expensive, what I try to do is I'm trying to, well, that's going on over there, I'm trying to constantly work on the most important thing in a company. The most important thing in your company is your brand. That's it, that's the most important thing. because the brand is literally worth millions, I mean, it's pure gold. You can't even put the value on a good brand. So that's the number one thing that I'm constantly trying to work on because I understand that if the brand builds, if our reputation builds, if our impact in the marketplace builds, then the marketing and the amount, the percentage of revenue that I have to spend on marketing will decrease in order to get the same result because the brand is stronger. So now each marketing dollar, right, will... Alex (33:06) Yes. Robin Scherer (33:29) will be as usable and as good as the brand behind it. If you have a really good brand like Coca-Cola, I mean, you know, you market it and people are like, oh Coca-Cola, they know that brand, they, whoa, right? So that's important is to work a lot and work hard on your brand on the backside. Otherwise you're constantly going to have to spend that huge amount in marketing to get out there. And if you really invest in brand and branding, then your marketing will get less expensive. And that's how that works. So that's something that I do, it's important. Alex (33:56) Yep. Yeah, exactly. You know, so back to this personal brand and the branding, that's the something that is really underrated in the roofing community. Many, many of them hate, you know, posting on Facebook, hate making posts and stuff like that. But I always tell them this example, right? So me myself, I never had any marketing experience, right? I went to a law school, right? So I was finishing the law school and I built a strong personal brand in the gaming community in 2021. And without any marketing degree or anything, one year later, I actually ended up working in Sony without any marketing experience as a social media manager. And that's why I tell them, you know, branding is everything. They don't care about your certifications, about your details. Yes, they are important. It's important that you do the work you do very well. But having a strong brand will actually give you advantage, will give you a chance. And then after you have the chance, it's on you to capitalize it. But Robin Scherer (34:49) Yeah. Alex (34:53) It's having a brand is way less expensive than paying on Google ads, Facebook ads or whatever, you know. Robin Scherer (34:58) Yeah. Yeah, one thing that you made a good point on is like, you know, a lot of them don't like posting or don't want to or all that. I wanted to say that I was 100% that guy for the longest time. I hated social media, I hated posting because I felt like social media, and I still feel like this a lot sometimes, it's just this whole thing where we're just like, look how great I am, look how well I'm doing, look how awesome I am. And it's like very vain, right? Because a lot of the times... Alex (35:24) Yeah. Robin Scherer (35:25) What's going on behind the scenes is life is never really that good and that sparkly, right? You don't see all the struggles and trials and tribulations that are going on behind the scenes. You just see like this best perfect version of everybody. And what I can do is A, it just feels a little bit like whatever and I didn't really wanna be a part of that. Like I didn't wanna, oh look how great I'm doing, look how awesome I'm doing, oh look how I bought this house. I didn't like that. So that's why I always stayed away from it. I was just not really that into it. And also, there is a fear that can come into place. I know that I had it. I don't even know if I wanna call it a fear, but like a not wanting to be judged or thought of by your peers. This is a thought that I used to have that I've had to get over, but that can be a thought that can go into place. But I realized a couple things on this. Number one on that second point of like not wanting to get judged or not wanting to put yourself out there or whatever. And what's his name? Alex Hormozzi talks about this and he helped me overcome this, right? And different people talk about this. But at the end of the day, Alex (36:20) Yeah. Robin Scherer (36:24) You're not as important as you think you are. Like you're not, like people don't think about you as much as you think they do, right? Like we tend to think that we're a lot more important or special or whatever than we really are. So you're worried that people are gonna think about you. Like, dude, it doesn't matter. Like, you know what I mean? And at the end of the day, if these are my friends on Facebook or on Instagram or whatever the platform may be, that should be the place where I wanna share what I'm doing and how it's going and how I can be helped or. Alex (36:27) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Robin Scherer (36:51) you know, what my brand is or whatever, that's the place I would want to share it. And if it's not, then are those people on your friends list really your friends? And the answer would be, well, then they wouldn't be, of course, right? So kind of sitting back and getting a little bit humble and going, hey, I'm not that important and not being worried about what other people think was a huge thing for me that helped me. And then the other aspect, just for me, I just trying to be relatively genuine and just trying to not be too over the top, like, oh, look how. great, we're doing, look how great I am, just constantly, just trying to be genuine and just trying to speak. Like I find success with trying to speak from my experience and what I've been able to do, right? And when you do that, it's harder to come off as like that arrogant or over pompous or whatever thing that I didn't like that I saw on social media, because you're just talking about from your own experience and your own standpoint based off your own experiences. And you know, that's important to me. And not like, I don't know. trying not to tell people what to do, trying to just say what you've done and how you found success with it, I feel like is a good way to go about that kind of thing. But there's huge value to doing it for sure. Alex (37:57) I mean, absolutely. You know, yeah, for example, you know, you mentioned that nobody cares about you. And this is the example I love to repeat from Alex Hermosy and that they always like to think about, you know, Queen Elizabeth was the ruler of so many countries. She has been a royal for over close to 100 years, right? And she's been a queen for nearly entire life. And she had control over United States, Canada, you know. Robin Scherer (38:03) This is the end. Alex (38:25) not officially, but there is a Commonwealth part of it where, yeah, she made impact, right? And she died after being a ruler for nearly 100 years and nobody actually remembers her. You know, yes, you're going to have history books, but does anybody talk about her? Does anybody mention her at all? She's gone and she actually ruled the entire world. So that's exactly why you shouldn't care about others because everybody will forget Robin Scherer (38:28) Should have big impact, yeah. they did for us. Alex (38:55) Okay, so the next, maybe your sons won't remember you, your grandkids, yeah, they'll have some fond memories of you being older and playing with them. After that, there is a high chance everybody will forget you. And that's why I tell to people, just live your life. You know, just do what you think needs to be done because ultimately it does not matter what they think. They'll all die, we will all die, sooner or later. And it doesn't matter, just live your life to the fullest and try as much as you can. If you wanna try this business model or try something else, just do it. If you think your family will judge you, so be it. It doesn't matter. Robin Scherer (39:33) Yeah, I completely agree. And it's an important thing sometimes when you talk or that mindset comes about, it's kind of like, it feels like nihilistic. And that's the last thing that it is, it's not at all. It's just a humbleness of realizing that, hey, and to not allow others to stop you from living the life that you wanna live and do the things and go for the things you wanna go for. Because that is one of the reasons people don't, it's because they're worried about the opinions of others and getting humble like that is important to be able to do that. So yeah, no, it's important. Alex (39:41) Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, just, you know, people are too worried about people judging them, you know, and it's a big problem, you know. So the thing with this judgment and the community, you know, judgment is because it kills so many dreams, right? So many people are afraid of doing something because the community will judge them. You know, I mean, I had Instagram accounts since 2015. It took me over seven years to start posting. Robin Scherer (40:06) Yeah. Alex (40:30) a lot of stories because I thought it was crunch. I thought, you know, why would they talk about my business with my bunch of friends? What they will think of me, you know? And now I don't give a shit. If they want, they can unfollow, right? But ultimately where I could have been if I started seven years ago, but I was afraid of their judgment, you know? And it's something that, you know, this is why you are successful because you said, I don't care, you know, at 15, I'll start roofing. Robin Scherer (40:39) Yeah. Right? Right. Thank you. Alex (40:58) You didn't want to start roofing, but you did ultimately. And you are further ahead than most of your friends from the childhood, you know, and because you weren't afraid of what people think, you know, because I feel nowadays, I mean, maybe tell me if I'm wrong, but at least where I'm from, from Serbia, right? Construction workers and people working on construction are usually frowned upon. You know, people are thinking that it's not. Robin Scherer (41:02) Right. Alex (41:26) high class, you know, that everybody needs to have a community college faculty, you know, isn't it the same in the United States or it's different in there? Robin Scherer (41:35) Yeah, I would say it definitely is. There's a stigma around the blue collar trades. If I tell a girl that I'm a roofer compared to telling a girl or someone that I'm a lawyer, telling a person you're a lawyer, the status, there's a status thing. The lawyer is way more important than the roofer or the doctor or the dentist or whatever. So it's definitely a thing out there. And that's part of what I'm trying to change around in the industry. Because I love roofing. I think it's a very needed product. I mean, it's literally the roof over your head. it's your shelter, like it's so basic and so vital. It's something that everybody needs, right? So why would a service that everybody needs, it's so basic and so vital, not be looked upon as a, you know, as a really important and really good thing to do and be, right? But unfortunately, you know, it's gotten a bad name that, oh, it's for big dropouts, guys who can't go to college, guys who aren't smart enough, or this or that. And I think that it's the furthest from the truth, you know, and in roofing, you can make such good money. Whether you're talking about the sales side, which everyone talks about, but even just like my crews, like some of my foremen. I mean, these guys make insane amounts of money. They do really well. When I was a roofer for my dad, when I was like 18 years old, I mean, when I was 18 years old working for my dad, I was making more than a lot of people who have graduated college, right? Just roofing and formatting a crew. So there's good money in the physical side of it also, and even in the office side of it, executives, salaried employees, it's a really good business in a really, really important industry. So I'm trying to kind of be a part of changing that around. And I feel like that is coming. I see more and more people talking about the importance of plumbers, electricians, roofers, carpenters, general contractors. I see that in society starting to switch a little bit, which I really like because... We need more good young people who want to get involved in the trades, who want to learn, who want to create a career path out of it, right? I mean, you can take a path like me where you start roofing when I was 15, 16, do that for a while, move into sales, move into project management, own your own company. I mean, there's so many different paths you can take, and it's a really worthwhile and needed industry. We need more good people. There's a huge shortage in the labor pool right now, so I'm trying to be kind of a part of also spurring that up. getting more young people into it, or good people, and wanna do a good job, and all that stuff. Alex (43:55) So what do you, you know, what would you say to somebody who wants to start roofing at the age you did? Of course you had the influence of your father who actually got you into roofing and actually and actually showed you that roofing is not that bad, right? You know, at 15 you probably had ideas of being this gangster or somebody, I mean maybe I'm just judging, you know, but people at 15 they are more of I'll be this rich guy, wear a suit, you know, I want to be blue collar, stuff like that, you know. At least that's how I thought. I mean, I wanted to be an armed man at 15. I wanted to be per- Robin Scherer (44:25) Yeah, I was different when I was 15. I was just lost, man. I didn't know what I wanted to do, where I wanted to go, what I wanted to be at that time. At least I was just lost. So it gave me a path for sure. But there definitely are some guys who are very, you know, they have that big ego. They think they can do it all and all that. Alex (44:30) Hahaha Mm-hmm. So why should somebody who is at 15, 16 pursue being blue collar worker and the owner instead of going to college? You know, I mean, many people, you know, nowadays, yeah, sorry, nowadays people say, you know, that escape the matrix stuff like that. You probably saw it. You're a younger guy, right? So should somebody go into white collar jobs or blue collar? Robin Scherer (44:53) Yeah, I mean... Alex (45:06) Because personally, I believe blue color is way better than white color nowadays. It's over saturated there. Everybody wants to be this fancy guy doing stuff. Nobody wants to get their hands dirty. And I believe it's a wrong mindset and it's... There's a lot of opportunity in blue color right now. Robin Scherer (45:13) Yeah. Yeah, I would say there's no right or wrong answer, right? You can do amazing in white collar, you can do amazing in blue collar, you know, you can do, I mean, there's so much opportunity online nowadays, I mean, you could be like the best finger painter ever, and you could make a TikTok following on finger, I mean, there's so many online opportunities too nowadays, like there's so much you can do, but I would definitely urge people to at least consider and look at that path, and look at the opportunity that's there. Because like you said, the thing about Blue Collar right now is there's a shortage. Look at the saturation level, right? Like in trying to say, even what you do, marketing, having a marketing company. The difficulty level I feel like of having a marketing company compared to starting and being a roofing company or getting into roofing sales, I feel like it's way harder to do like what you're doing than that. Just because of the amount of saturation that there is, again. and the shortage of people who not just want to do it on the blue collar, but also want to do it professionally and at a really high level. And it's definitely a path, man. I mean, like I said, even when I was 17 years old, I was doing better income-wise, roofing every day with my... And it was fun for me. I mean, it's hard work, but you're out in the sun, they were my friends on my crew, and roofing every day, I was making better money than a lot of college graduates. So don't... Alex (46:16) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Robin Scherer (46:45) frown on that opportunity. It's huge, it's there, and it's definitely a great option, you know? Alex (46:52) Yeah. I mean, I'm from Serbia, right? So, I wanted to be a lawyer simply because of the money aspect, right? Because lawyers in Serbia make around one to five thousand dollars a month, you know? I mean, you're gonna laugh at that because... but, you know, United States is far superior to Serbia in Balkans, right? And for me, you know, once I saw how easy it is to get money by working for foreign companies, I really didn't have any... Robin Scherer (47:09) Yeah. Alex (47:19) reason to continue my law studies, right? I'm still a student, but I'm not really inclined to do it because what am I spending my years towards? I'm spending my years towards having some salary that is like a thousand bucks, you know? And when I saw ability and possibilities of actually doing that and I went from a law student to actually making triple what a judge in Serbia makes by posting Robin Scherer (47:33) Yeah, it's important. Alex (47:49) but it also felt superior towards others. I mean, maybe I'm just egoistical and stuff, but when you make memes on Twitter and make them bigger money than somebody who's a judge who spent seven years doing law, it's kind of stupid, you know? There's no point. Robin Scherer (48:06) Yeah, yeah, it is. It's very, very interesting. I mean, I don't think there's anything wrong being a judge or being a this or anything. But the thing is, is important is deciding on your path and what it's going to be from the outset. The mistake that I see a lot of people make, I feel like I've seen some of my peers make, is going to college, but not having that outcome in mind. Like, okay, I'm going for four years, then I'm going to do this. It's going to lead to this, boom, and just kind of going because it's something to do or somewhere to go. And then you end up out, you're in a lot of debt. and you didn't have a plan, so you didn't, right? Because if I go to college, I'm only gonna get as much data and I'm only gonna grow as much as what my plan is. Am I actually there to learn for a reason? If I'm there because I'm like, hey, in four years, I'm gonna create the coolest marketing company ever and that's why I'm going for four years for marketing. I'm gonna get all this knowledge so that I can go and do great in marketing. Oh, then you probably would do great going to college for marketing. But if you're going to college just because like, hey, that's what... Mom and dad said I needed to do, or that kind of seemed like the thing to do, or you're not going to get and reap the returns out of that investment. And I would also urge people to, there's a lot online that you can learn and do. I mean, I learned everything that I know about running a business, and I don't know it all by any means, but I know a thing or two, and everything that I've learned about running a business, leading a team, selling, communicating across the board, just a ton on YouTube online. So. just realizing that opportunity is there also, I would say. Alex (49:36) Absolutely, so I just got a message from the client, right? He said, I'm super interested in his retail model. Have we actually spoke about that or is there something we missed on? Robin Scherer (49:47) I don't think we really touched on the retail model too much. I mean, I can touch on that. So for me, when I was in LA roofing with my dad again, that's all that LA is, the California market, because there isn't a lot of wind, there isn't a lot of hail, that roofs get really old and they get replaced. So that's all we did was retail. That's the model that he did. That's what I knew. That's what I did. So when we came over here, and also in California, you have to W-2. You really can't subcontract out like that. Alex (49:51) Yeah, please do. Thanks for watching! Robin Scherer (50:14) Everyone has to have a license. That's how California is. So that also led me to when I came over here to Florida, I was just kind of like, hey, we W2 everyone in house and then retail. That's all I knew. I didn't even know insurance was a thing, right? So, and I'm not saying that insurance or retail, one is good, one is bad, one is better, one is the other. I just know that I know retail. So that's the niche that I have gone after and what I've done. What I like about retail is I get to work with people and I like people a lot. Alex (50:19) Thanks for watching! Robin Scherer (50:41) I don't like insurance companies. I mean, some people do, maybe. I don't know. I don't like insurance companies. I don't like the insurance industry. I don't wanna work for it and with it. It's just not my thing. Eventually, I'll probably change that and we'll start working on that too because it would be smart to be diversified. But this size of business, I've been able to carve a niche out of just doing retail. It's been really cool. And the thing about retail is... Alex (50:48) Mm-hmm. Robin Scherer (51:05) Again, working with people is nice. Your price isn't dictated. There's no insurance company that's dictating how much you can or can't charge. So you're free to kind of create however you want. I would say on average, the payout in retail is less than insurance by a bit, but you don't have to do all the back end work on the supplementing and on that. The cash flow in retail is quicker because I'm done with the job. I get paid. I'm done with the job. I get paid. There's no waiting for the insurance company, waiting for the reverse mortgage company. You know. Alex (51:32) Yeah, it takes two months. Robin Scherer (51:34) Yeah, yeah, there's none of that, so the cash flow is very fast. And that's just the model that I built. The thing about retail also is that really taking care of people and doing the brand play that I'm trying to do really works in retail. Because again, we're working for people. And when people are spending $20,000 retail on a new roof, you know, they really want it to be done well and with a high serviceability. Whereas when somebody's just paying $2,000 deductible for their roof, It's not, you know, they're just not as linked to it. It's not as big of a deal. So that's kind of how I feel like companies who really focus on insurance, that customer service aspect, and that process being really smooth, isn't as important as on the retail side. Because on the retail side, again, you know, they're spending $20,000 or at a commercial building could be hundreds of thousands of dollars. You really need to be on the ball, I feel like. So that's kind of, I feel like doing it on the retail side has helped me build my brand more because I've had to be more service oriented, more quick with everything, just because they're investing the full cost of the roof. One thing right now in Florida that drives retail a lot is insurance companies and the insurance industry canceling people's roofs. Like literally a roof might be 15 or 18 years old and it's not even leaking, but the insurance company writes a letter, says, hey, you have to replace your roof. Alex (52:42) Yeah. Robin Scherer (52:57) So that's something that's been going on a lot, which I think is not cool, because if the roof isn't leaking and you're just forcing the client to change it, it's like, I don't like that, but that's something that's going on that drives the business a lot. In Florida, we get tons of big rains and stuff like that. So people will have leaks, they'll have issues, they'll need emergency repairs. So that drives retail a lot. And again, it's not that retail's better or insurance is better. Alex (53:01) Mm-hmm. Robin Scherer (53:21) But I would say that I've been able to carve a niche out in retail. So everything that I do is centered and focused on that. So that allows me to be niched into retail. Whereas if I started trying to do insurance right now, I might get distracted from what has worked there. So I would say that whichever model you want to go after, find out what you do really well and what works really well for your business and where you're able to succeed. and then really focus on that. Don't let yourself get distracted. That's something I've made the mistake of many times is getting distracted by the shiny thing there here. Oh, I could do a siding job there. I could do stucco there. And you get distracted and then it always doesn't work. Why doesn't it work? Because you're just not good at it. Like I'm good at retail roofing. I'm good at TPO and shingle replacements. I'm good at metal and tile. On a retail scale, I'm able to do it quick, fast and. Alex (53:53) New business model. Yeah. Robin Scherer (54:07) I'm just focused on trying to make that as good as possible. So whichever niche you're gonna go after, whatever you're gonna do, just make sure you can do it well and then focus on it, I would say. Alex (54:16) So, you know, to wrap it up because we are already over the limit of the time you have, what is one lesson and one piece of advice you would give any roofing company right now that could have sped up your process to 18 million that you make now? So something that if you knew three years ago, you would build what you have now in just a year. Is there, does that information exist? Robin Scherer (54:41) I don't know how I, I mean, doing this fast has been really challenging. One thing that I didn't talk about in this whole thing, which is the 100% key, it's the 100% most key thing guys, is for me, it's just doing the work. And I know that doesn't sound very special to say, cause it's not, it's what everybody says. But like literally to build this company, I wake up at five in the morning and I put in the work, man. I mean, the weekends, right? I have put in so much work to build this company. And that is the key at the end of the day, is putting in the work, but then also being intelligent about putting in the work as much as possible. What I mean by that is figuring out how you can delegate, how you can get really, really awesome team members and awesome individuals who wanna help you build their company and who wanna do big things, and then making sure you incentivize and take care of those people. Because that's, like my company is everything. For me, the employees of my company are everything. Like we wouldn't be where we're at without them and all that they do. So making sure you incentivize that and create a really good and meaningful purpose for your company, where it's going, so employees can get behind it, and then make sure that your employees are growing along with you. I would say those have been my, some of my biggest keys to success, but it really is putting in the work. You know what I mean? When there's that lead on that Saturday, take the call when the other guy wouldn't. When that sales rep needs some help, go ahead and help him when somebody else may not have. It's just those little bits of work consistently that compound and create success, I would say. So that's the number one thing is work hard and have good intentions and know where you want to go and the rest will follow. Alex (56:23) Mm-hmm. Amazing, amazing. Yeah, I definitely agree. You have been definitely the most knowledgeable roofing or roofer company that is visiting this podcast, and I'm very thankful to have you on. It was a pleasure. And we should definitely run it back at some time. Maybe sit for a longer episode if I go to the United States at some point, have it in real life. So thank you so much for being part of it. And yeah. that I'll end the episode but feel free to stick around Robin I have a few questions for you that's fine Robin Scherer (56:59) Yeah, no problem. Thanks for having me, man. I appreciate the opportunity. Alex (57:03) Okay, there we go. I mean, I ended up the record.