0:06

This is Seeds for Success, a

0:08

show where we have a good yarn about Ag life

0:11

with producers who are having a go.

0:13

On the show, you'll hear from farmers in New South Wales

0:16

who are out there battling the elements, making

0:18

tough calls, and getting the job done.

0:21

You'll get a laugh out of some of their stories

0:24

and also pick up some know- how along the way.

0:27

I'm your host, Neroli Brennan. Today,

0:32

we are chatting with Paul Sinderberry .

0:35

Paul, along with his wife and daughter, farm

0:38

at Karawatha, 50 kilometers north

0:40

of Condobolin. They run a traditional

0:42

mixed farm with wheat, canola,

0:45

and pulse cropping, as well as running commercial

0:48

and stud Angus cattle. In

0:50

this episode, you'll hear how their stud

0:52

cattle operation, Moogenilla Angus,

0:54

was part of the impetus behind their

0:56

investigation and trialing of hard-

0:59

seeded legumes within their pasture system.

1:01

The low bloating nature of some hard-

1:03

seeded pasture legumes, such as Biserrula and

1:06

serradella, was very attractive to

1:08

Paul's operation after he lost expensive

1:11

stud animals on bloating, legume

1:13

pastures like lucerne and clover.

1:15

Paul also shares with us some useful

1:18

tips if considering growing hard- seeded

1:20

legumes on your own farm. Local

1:23

land services mixed farming officer, Rohan

1:25

Leach, join Paul on the lounge

1:27

at Karawatha over a cuppa and

1:30

a toasted sandwich to bring you this

1:32

great chat.

1:35

Paul, welcome to the Seeds for Success podcast.

1:38

Thanks, Rowan. We've got a beautiful day here and thanks

1:40

for coming out.

1:40

Mate, do you mind telling the listeners where we are

1:43

and what you do?

1:44

Yeah. Karawatha, we're about 50Ks north of Condobolin,

1:47

Central New South Wales. We're a mix farm,

1:49

cropping and cattle and breed

1:52

bulls. We've got two properties. Yeah,

1:54

the home block is about six and a half thousand hectares.

1:58

And that's Karawatha?

1:58

Yeah. Karawatha and then about 60Ks northwest near Babinda,

2:01

got another block there. It's about four and a half thousand hectares.

2:03

And yeah, we're running cattle and cropping

2:05

out there to tidy the place up too.

2:07

Yep. What are some of your soil types here?

2:09

Typical red soils, sandy clay

2:11

loams. Yeah, low phosphorus, low

2:13

nitrogen and yeah, typically

2:16

4. 8 to about 5.5 pH.

2:19

Fairly acid, like probably the majority of the state, west

2:22

of the hill.

2:22

Yeah. As we're finding, getting more acid all the time.

2:25

We've got a liming program going as well

2:27

when it rains. Yeah, our rainfall, we're

2:29

about 425 mills

2:31

average. Now we can grow good crops and yeah, grow good

2:33

pastures as well when it rains.

2:35

Do you mind just telling me a bit about your cropping program?

2:37

What crops do you grow?

2:38

Yeah, so I mean the basis is

2:40

wheat, but yeah, wheat, canola, field peas,

2:43

a bit of barley, sometimes chickpeas. This

2:45

year, we're got about four

2:47

and a half thousand hectares in. We're

2:49

trying to tidy up some country at the moment as well.

2:51

But yeah, about four and a half thousand hectares of crop,

2:54

and about 700 breeders.

2:55

That sounds like a big job, mate. What's your business structure

2:57

and people involved in the business?

2:59

Sarah and I, we've over the years, developed

3:02

a bit of a system I suppose. She's in

3:04

charge of the cattle, I'm in charge of the cropping. Yeah. We

3:06

can discuss what happens in between with the pastures and that

3:08

sort of thing. We've got two full- time employees

3:10

and my daughter's involved as well.

3:12

She's partnered with one of the employees, Brett, and

3:14

they live on the block out near Babinda.

3:16

Sarah looks

3:18

after the cattle and you look after the cropping.

3:20

You come together When it comes for the pasture stuff

3:23

though, I think.

3:23

Oh yeah, no, as I say, we

3:25

got to always try and maximize

3:27

your returns, maximize the efficiency. Yeah,

3:29

so we grow grazing crops with the cattle. Yeah,

3:31

when you're trying to run two enterprises, you've got to make compromises.

3:34

Yeah. Right at the moment, we're finding Illabo wheat's

3:36

going really well on the grazing side of things.

3:38

And that's yeah, pretty much how I got into the Biserrula and

3:41

that. We under- sew all of our crops when

3:43

they go out traditionally with lucerne and rose

3:45

clover in particular. And they'll be out for five

3:47

to seven years until the lucerne thins

3:49

out and then yeah, come back into the croppy again. Yeah,

3:52

along the way, you got to make compromises, but that's generally how

3:54

it works.

3:55

I've just noticed that you said the Biserrula there,

3:57

so I'll seize on that. That's a great

3:59

segue into my next topic. You

4:01

are tied up with the Central West farming

4:04

Systems producer demonstration site

4:06

this year. Do you mind sort of explaining what

4:08

your involvement is there?

4:09

I guess, yeah, for a while I'd

4:11

been on the hunt for some pasture

4:13

other than lucerne. Basically, we run Angus cattle breed

4:16

bulls, we can grow really good pastures. And

4:18

occasionally, the pastures are too hot and now we have lots

4:20

of issues with bloat. We've got ways

4:22

of managing that with bloat oil and hay

4:24

and that sort of thing. But there's just times, anyway, it's

4:26

a compromise. I've been on hunt

4:28

for a while to try to find something different. And

4:31

I came across Biserrula and serradella.

4:34

Did some research. Talked to some good people,

4:36

particularly Dr. Belinda Hackney, who helped

4:39

me a lot. And yeah, we ended up

4:41

sewing some trial sites here and out

4:43

of that by Biserrula and serradella. And probably particularly

4:46

the Biserrula have done really, really well. Then non-

4:48

bloating, so of it's going really well

4:50

through that. Then Central West Farming Systems came on and

4:52

MLA, gave us a hand and supplied

4:54

us with some seed and stuff like that. And now we're working

4:56

at integrating those Biserrula

4:59

pastures with the cropping system and

5:01

possibly replacing the pulses

5:03

with Biserrula. That's where, yeah, MLA's

5:06

showing an interest. Yeah.

5:08

Yeah, cool. Because we've gone for a little

5:10

drive around this morning and I

5:12

noticed that you had a dam fenced off and you had

5:14

bloat troughs and that sort of stuff in a paddock of lucerne. You

5:17

were doing all the right things I guess, and with

5:19

hay and whatever, but you just still found

5:21

that risk of bloat just too high with

5:23

the lucerne?

5:24

It's just that unknowing. I mean, yeah, you can go

5:27

90% of the time, you're absolutely fine. And then the one

5:29

morning that you go out and it's not fine,

5:31

that hurts. And particularly even from an animal welfare

5:33

point of view, but an economic point of view now with the price

5:36

of cattle and that, it really hurts. Yeah, we're

5:38

just always looking for alternatives.

5:40

Yeah. Have you got any horror stories about bloat?

5:42

We haven't really. The odd one, certainly

5:44

no large numbers, which has been good.

5:47

But financially we've lost a couple of very

5:49

valuable animals. Yeah, that hurts a lot,

5:51

It would do, particularly at this time in

5:53

the cycle of Angus prices.

5:55

They've seen some pretty crazy prices. And you guys

5:57

hear yourself at moving a lot of Angus. Yeah.

5:59

You guys had been doing all right as well. Can

6:02

you tell me when did you first sow your first

6:04

crop of these hard- seeded legumes Biserrula and serradella and

6:07

a few others was it?

6:09

Yeah, 2017. I went to

6:11

a couple of presentations days where yeah,

6:13

Linda Hackney was speaking. Yeah, it was through

6:15

discussions with her. She suggested that we

6:18

try, instead of just sewing one

6:20

or two things, whatever, try a paddock, single

6:23

species strips and just see what performed.

6:26

Yeah. In 1785 hectare paddock

6:28

and we sewed I think seven

6:30

different species just in single lines.

6:33

Tried to work it so it was the sewing matched up

6:35

with boom spray wits if we needed to spray it. And we

6:38

had arrowleaf clover and Biserrula

6:40

and bladder clover, gland,

6:42

two types of serradella, rose clover.

6:45

And so, that was really interesting because yeah, we sewed them, they

6:47

all grew. People remember 2017

6:49

in this area, it started well off the back

6:51

of '16.

6:52

We had a good autumn that year, didn't we?

6:54

Yeah, we had a pretty good autumn. Everything got off to a good start.

6:56

And then basically, just about the middle of the year it just stopped

6:58

raining. And then we had a heap of frosts, a

7:00

lot of crop got frosted. It

7:02

was pretty hard on the pastures. But

7:04

straight up from that I

7:06

was really impressed with the growth

7:09

and the length of season that the Biserrula and

7:12

serradella in particular had. Arrow leaf

7:14

clover looked good at the time. Rose clover did

7:16

what it always does. It's good ground cover but then cut

7:18

out really quickly. On the back of that, I actually bought

7:21

another ton of serradella and sewed

7:23

that into a different paddock. Unfortunately, that didn't go so

7:25

well. Basically didn't rain. I think we must have

7:27

had just enough small rains that it germinated,

7:29

a bit of a downer. But then late in

7:31

'18 we had an inch of rain, October

7:34

or something. And all of a sudden the Biserrula

7:37

I'd say in the previous year just bounced back and took

7:39

off. And I was actually able to graze that paddock

7:41

a bit, just pretty much on that. I

7:43

thought that was pretty amazing. Then we went through '19. And '19

7:46

just got worse. Pretty much didn't see anything in '19.

7:48

And so, by the end of that thinking, " Oh, well, okay.

7:50

This is all that was good fun, but nothing's going to come of

7:52

it."

7:52

Fun while it lasted. Yeah.

7:53

Fun while it lasted. That

7:55

paddock we sewed oats into

7:57

in '20 when it started raining, early '20. And we

8:00

sewed oats into... And then even as I'm sewing the

8:02

oats, I was just looking on the ground and going, " Wow, what's all

8:04

that stuff coming up?" And it was

8:06

in particular the Biserrula. It just bounced

8:08

back. It was amazing. Yeah, went up with a fantastic

8:10

crop of oats that we grazed really heavily

8:12

and in particular that was the Biserrula and the

8:14

yellow Santorini serradella

8:17

just worked for us. And it was now different

8:19

places, different things are going to work for different people in different

8:21

soils and whatever. But on our place, that's just

8:23

what's really standing out. When the other ones pretty much disappeared

8:25

and you'll see bits and pieces of them. But those

8:27

two in particular just really stood out.

8:30

Yeah. That's advice from Belinda

8:32

of just sow a few different types

8:34

in strips really worked out for you.

8:37

Yeah. Absolutely. Because yeah, I'm sure I hear lots of stories

8:39

of arrowleaf clover working really well

8:41

for other people in different places. And those other ones,

8:43

they're obviously all out there for a reason, but

8:45

just in our environment it just seems that

8:48

this is what works for us. Yeah. And so I've gone on

8:50

with that. Yeah, we've got a few paddocks of straight Biserrula.

8:52

In and I'm now sewing Biserrula

8:54

with lucerne. Wherever we under- sew lucerne I'm

8:56

sewing Biserrula to hopefully, we'll

8:59

still need to provide that gap filler because

9:01

that's loosened things out. Instead of having weeds grow, it's

9:03

good if we have something beneficial that grows. And

9:05

also, hopefully the Biserrula then tames down

9:07

the bloat risk of the lucerne.

9:09

Yep. The Biserrula has got something called

9:11

condensed tannins in it. That while it makes

9:13

it a little bit not as tasty to

9:15

eat, not as palatable maybe as something like

9:17

a sub- clover, yeah, that helps

9:19

with the bloat.

9:20

Yeah. And I've had other people say, "

9:23

Oh, now the Biserrula, it's not palatable or something."

9:26

But I don't know from what I've seen, our cattle

9:28

love it. There's places where they've got options,

9:30

tree lines and there's plenty of grass around at the moment

9:32

and stuff. And they still seem to hammer the Biserrula and

9:34

we've seen, won't say none,

9:36

but very, very little signs of bloat with it.

9:38

We've been driving around this

9:40

morning and walked through some probably- knee high

9:42

paddocks of Biserrula. it looks pretty magic

9:44

here at this time of year. What are you planning to do

9:46

with that stuff you've locked up?

9:48

We've been harvesting. Paddock I sewed

9:50

in 2020, we harvested it now the last

9:53

two years, got seed off. And then yeah, so I'm

9:55

now using that to spread everywhere else. That's

9:57

a really good economic gain and cost

9:59

reduction. To be able to graze

10:01

the paddocks during the year, then lock

10:03

them up and get seed. And so that's makes

10:05

it look pretty good for a pulse replacement.

10:07

Yep. And so how have they been yielding?

10:09

Probably on average, about 100 kgs a

10:12

hectare. I think that's probably what I'm getting off. Yeah.

10:15

Yep. And are you using all of

10:17

that seed? Are you selling any surplus seed?

10:19

Yeah, I've been selling, yeah, some seed just locally

10:21

pretty much. I was spreading it around the west of the state. But

10:23

yeah, just friends and other people,

10:26

anyone who's inquiring. But no, we've spread a fair bit

10:28

of seed around the place. Yeah.

10:29

Is it difficult to harvest?

10:31

Yes and no. It's difficult to get

10:33

it in the header or in the box I should say. No, it's

10:35

been pretty easy. I have to thank Mike O'Hare down

10:37

at Beckham for giving me some pointers. No, we've

10:39

just been going in in January, February

10:41

hitting, going up with the hay rake,

10:43

just raking it up into windrows. And then

10:45

using pickup front, putting it into the header. That bit's

10:47

all easy. The hardest part then is trying to get the seed out of the

10:50

pod. And it's got a really thick leathery pod

10:52

that doesn't really want to split open. Yeah, I mean that

10:54

100 kilos a hectare I've been getting, I reckon that it would've been three or 400

10:57

kilos in the paddock, of which I've just spread back

10:59

around again. But yeah, we get to take a bit of it.

11:01

Yeah. Probably not the worst thing for the sustainability

11:03

of the system to leave a bit behind. But yeah,

11:05

I guess you're probably more thinking a bit

11:07

short term by just getting as much as you can

11:09

year to year.

11:10

Yeah. Oh yeah, no, it's an

11:12

area we definitely want to improve. We're going to keep trying

11:14

some different things. Yeah, it'd be really nice if

11:16

we can get some more of that seed, for sure.

11:18

And you also said that you've just bought yourself

11:20

a new seed cleaner. Do you mind talking

11:22

about that?

11:23

No, it's pretty simple. You're going to put me on the spot because I've

11:25

forgotten the name of it. It's just an air one.

11:27

And just, yeah, it's got a fan, the

11:30

seed flow drops through the fan. And it actually does a really

11:32

good job of sizing seed. Because all the lighter

11:34

stuff blows out the back and the heavier stuff drops straight

11:36

away. Even with wheat and pulses and stuff like

11:38

that, you get your heavy seed all up the front and all

11:40

the light stuff gets blown out. It's been quite

11:42

beneficial just as a help as a pre- cleaner

11:44

and stuff. I can do all my wheat seeding

11:47

and that with it.

11:47

Yeah, so what are your plans

11:49

going forward to get your harvest a bit better? Maybe

11:51

any tips on maybe desiccation

11:54

or windrowing or anything like that?

11:56

Yeah. Hopefully, I'm going to try that this year

11:58

is we're going to try and desiccate as

12:00

soon as the crop's 90% ripe or something,

12:02

we'll try and desiccate. And

12:04

I believe maybe at that stage

12:07

that the pods might be more brittle, got

12:09

a stripper front coming. And I keep hearing

12:11

stories where everyone says how wonderful stripper fronts

12:13

are for picking up down crops. This one

12:15

looks pretty much like a down crop to me. I'm hoping,

12:18

yeah, if we run it that we might be able to

12:20

help pluck the seeds off and these

12:22

pods off. And if they're brittle enough, shatter and then

12:24

we'll be able to get them in the box. Yeah.

12:25

Yeah. You've got experience

12:28

with chickpeas and field peas in the past.

12:30

How does this crop compare to them?

12:32

Yeah, well, I suppose it will just be, just

12:35

like peas, when it matures, it all just falls

12:37

down. It's all knee- high plus at the

12:39

moment, but as it matures that'll go back

12:41

down to our ankles. Yeah, pretty

12:43

similar from that front. But then,

12:46

yeah, with this pod situation, I mean

12:48

it's not like you're worrying about seed cracking or anything like

12:50

that. Not even really worried about shatter out the

12:52

front either. It's more about

12:54

actually trying to get the pods to break open.

12:56

We're mucking out, doing some things, mucking around with concaves and that.

12:58

Trying to close concaves up or put a

13:01

wire mesh in there. You can try some stuff

13:03

like that.

13:03

Mate, it sounds like I need to come out here in another six months

13:05

and talk to you after harvest.

13:07

It sounds like a constant learning experience with something

13:10

new and exciting like this.

13:11

It is a big learning experience, which is really enjoyable.

13:13

I mean that's a fantastic thing about farming is just we're

13:15

all learning all the time and try

13:17

new things, but I am a bit excited about this crop. I think

13:19

it's showing a lot of potential to then become

13:22

part of our cropping system. And the fact that you've only got

13:24

to sell it once and once you've got it, it's there. I

13:26

think going forward, that's going to be really good.

13:27

Yeah, it's interesting that you call it a crop and you

13:29

talk about it as if it's a crop. We've gone

13:31

straight into the detail there. But maybe we'll

13:34

step back and have a look at a bit of the system

13:36

of this Biserrula and hard- seeded legume.

13:39

Just for the listeners, these hard- seeded legumes

13:41

are much more persistent in the soil

13:43

with a hard seed. And they can

13:46

basically regenerate even after

13:48

a cropping phase. Is that what you've seen in your experience,

13:51

Paul?

13:52

Yeah, and the '17 to

13:54

'20 was a typical example that we sewed a crop

13:56

in '17. I wouldn't have even said we had a great

13:58

seed set then, but it did have a seed set. And

14:00

then we've had complete wipe out in '18 and '19

14:03

with no rain. And then for the crop to

14:05

come back the way it did, it's obviously got a lot of hard seed.

14:07

And so, there's no reason

14:10

it won't continue in our cropping system. Even

14:12

then this year, we sewed one paddock. Last

14:14

year, in '21, we sewed a 240

14:17

hectare paddock just straight Biserrula. It

14:19

grew pretty well. We probably sewed a little bit late. It

14:21

definitely likes an early sewing once it starts,

14:23

cools down.

14:24

What time of year is an early sewing for you?

14:26

Yeah, I think we want to be late March,

14:28

early April. Which is good in that we're

14:30

getting it in before the rest of the crop so it's not interfering.

14:32

It's only about the same time as we sewing our grazing cereals.

14:35

The growth out of it then, when it gets

14:37

a start, it's so far ahead of then something

14:39

that you so in late May after everything else.

14:41

That crop grew well last year. We grazed

14:43

it. We had 100 young bulls on it for a couple of

14:45

months and they didn't even touch it really. And then

14:47

it all set seed. Then yeah, this year I came in and said, " Okay,

14:50

the plan is to sew wheat in

14:52

late April." As I'm going into the paddock with a boom

14:54

spray to take everything out or sow

14:57

the wheat, it was just a carpet by

14:59

Biserrula. It's pretty hard to keep going.

15:01

It's a bit of a sickening feeling when you think this is just

15:03

going to be some magic feed in a couple of weeks. But I

15:05

guess it's done its job already. It's

15:07

built up all that nitrogen. The

15:10

one thing with these is that the broadleaf weed

15:12

options, probably weed control options

15:14

aren't that great. Yeah, I think putting

15:16

it into a wheat's a great option.

15:18

That's the downside. There's really very little

15:20

in the way of broadleaf weed control options.

15:24

Yeah, I think it's almost a case of, I mean you do

15:26

the best you can to get as clean a paddock as you can before

15:28

you sew it. And then probably pretty much got to close your

15:30

eyes that first year to other weeds. But then come

15:32

back in with a cereal the following year and then take all those

15:35

weeds back out again and try to avoid

15:37

any use of the SUs of that. Because

15:39

like any of those medics and clovers and all that sort of stuff,

15:42

but it's not going to like that, but if I can avoid

15:44

using them, I think we're going to have a good fit in our cropping

15:46

system.

15:47

Yeah. This year being particularly wet, have you started

15:49

to notice that your nitrogen needs weren't

15:51

as high in those paddocks that you had these

15:53

hard- seeded legumes?

15:54

To be honest, I haven't this year. I mean we've only, that's

15:56

the first paddock that we've really done.

15:58

And I think, well, there was a lot of things went against

16:00

that paddock this year. We did end up, actually, I had

16:02

some leftover urea I was putting on some other paddocks. I

16:04

did put 55 kilos of urea across

16:07

that paddock. Yeah, we haven't seen a great benefit

16:09

yet. And I think last year, I think the amount of fleabane

16:11

and stuff we had last year, I mean last year was incredibly

16:14

wet over the winter. And we sewed it too late

16:16

and all that. There was a few things that weren't right

16:18

and I think the weeds got away a bit. I think they probably would've

16:21

sucked out a lot of the nitrogen benefit from

16:23

last year. Yeah, we got still learning,

16:25

still got to do a better job at that side of it. Yeah.

16:26

Yeah. Probably just one of my last questions on this

16:28

topic. I know Belinda

16:31

advises the dry sewing

16:33

of the un- scarified seed. Have you

16:35

thought about that or considered that?

16:37

Yeah, yeah, for sure. Because

16:39

once again, the real benefit of that is going to be

16:41

that early germination and it gets going

16:44

faster. The inoculation is an issue.

16:46

Or just not an issue but you have to use ALOSCA,

16:48

the clay- based inoculant.

16:50

And which comes in a granule.

16:52

Yeah, it comes in like a granule. And it can

16:54

be mixed with fertilizer. I haven't

16:57

tried that yet. It's definitely

16:59

something I'll think about. People are talking

17:01

about even if you're sewing digit

17:04

grass October or November

17:06

or something in the spring, maybe your

17:08

hard- seeded legumes could be so with

17:10

ALOSCA at that time. And they'll probably, they

17:13

should just sit over the summer and wait and

17:15

then come up in the autumn. And things

17:17

like that, there's yeah, we still are working at learning

17:19

how to do that stuff better. And once again, your weed control

17:22

paddock's going to have to be pretty clean because you lose

17:24

any ability to take out any weeds in that situation.

17:27

But if you've got your paddocks right, there's certainly

17:29

I think a place for it. And all the evidence is that, oh,

17:32

the plants grow so much better, you'll get so much

17:34

more production that first year.

17:35

You just mentioned that you're growing it with premier digit.

17:38

Is that those two are providing the

17:40

synergies of the legume in the winter

17:43

and the grass in the summer? Are you seeing some

17:45

good benefits there?

17:46

Yep. That's the plan and that, yeah, that's going

17:48

well. Yeah, once again, I'm selected

17:50

paddocks where I don't really want to be cropping.

17:53

We're using that once again as a bloat

17:55

offset at times of the year and conditions

17:57

where we think bloats a risk. It's nice

17:59

to have some digit paddocks that we can

18:01

put the cattle on instead. We've actually

18:03

got all our heap of carving

18:06

heifers on a paddock at the moment. As they calve, we've

18:08

been walking them onto that. And

18:10

so yeah, the digits pretty much dormant at the moment, but the Biserrula

18:12

is growing really well. And yeah, that's later

18:14

in the season the Biserrula is shut down and the

18:17

digit will take off. Yeah, hopefully

18:19

we're going to get nice synergy there. That's right.

18:20

Yeah. And hopefully it's fixed a heap

18:22

of nitrogen and that premier

18:24

digit really jumps away. When

18:26

we were driving around before, we're talking about how

18:28

good a season it's been for cattle and you are

18:31

maybe moving away from cropping a little

18:33

bit this year. How have you come to that decision?

18:35

Coming from the economic side of it, I've

18:37

always done the gross margins. And

18:39

the cropping, there's a higher gross margin

18:41

on average than livestock up until recently.

18:44

And so therefore, we've tried to concentrate

18:47

on putting our best country

18:49

into crop. And then, the rest of the country

18:52

in and out of crop or straight cattle, whatever. We've

18:55

split the farm up and we've got areas

18:57

of continuous crop, we've got paddocks that have been 15

18:59

years continuous crop now. Some are coming out of

19:01

crop and then some are just native pastures.

19:04

But I think with the change in livestock values

19:06

over the last few years, that dynamic's

19:09

really changed. When I look at our gross margins

19:11

now and I go, well, we

19:13

can make just as much money out of cattle as

19:16

we can from cropping with a quarter

19:18

of the risk. And particularly the way input prices

19:21

are at the moment, that's really highlighted that

19:23

even further. But our risk, particularly out

19:25

here where it's pretty... We

19:27

are marginal cropping country. We've just had on

19:30

our third good year now. But we

19:32

can still look, go back, look at 20 years

19:34

of yields and we're only

19:36

at about 1. 6 tons to the hectare,

19:39

the old eight bags or something. Our average is still only

19:42

around that. I couldn't imagine

19:44

growing an eight bag crop, amount we've spent on inputs. This

19:47

is, once again, if we get that Biserrula in,

19:50

sow it, it's established, come

19:52

Autumn next year, if all our

19:55

sub- soil moisture's disappeared and things are

19:57

looking dodgy and the forecasts aren't good, then maybe

19:59

some of our lesser paddocks we

20:01

could just say, " Okay, let's just leave them out and just

20:03

have it as a grazing paddock for the year." If all goes well,

20:05

we might end up harvesting some seed, whatever. But

20:08

the risk is so much reduced against a crop.

20:09

It just really makes that system

20:11

really flexible.

20:12

That's it. I think it's again, going to give us a lot more flexibility.

20:15

And because you've already sown it, it's there, it's waiting

20:17

to go. It's just to choose whether you spray it

20:19

out and sow a crop or whether you leave it and graze

20:22

it.

20:22

Beauty. That sounds, oh,

20:24

this farming business sounds pretty easy,

20:26

Paul.

20:27

Well, I might make it easy.

20:29

Mate, we've talked a lot about the benefits. Have

20:31

you noticed any downsides to the serradella

20:34

or the Biserrula? I know some people have seen photo

20:36

sensitivity in some stock, particularly sheep.

20:39

No, we haven't seen anything. We're running black cattle,

20:41

so apparently that pretty much cancels that out.

20:43

Oh great. Yeah, no, I didn't know that. Yeah.

20:45

Yeah, yeah. I think cattle

20:47

in particular are less sensitive than sheep.

20:49

And running black cattle means

20:51

there's no problem whatsoever. But even

20:54

talking to people about with the sheep, the only

20:56

time that they really have a problem is

20:59

if you've got a very pure stand and there's nothing else to eat.

21:01

And they're on it for long enough that it might

21:03

become a problem. Once again, just through

21:05

management you can move them on and off supply

21:08

hay, supply other things. There's ways around it. If

21:10

you are a total sheep operation, maybe

21:12

you don't want to put Biserrula over the whole property. It's a bit

21:14

like me not wanting to put lucerne over the whole property.

21:17

You need to have options.

21:18

Yep. Mate, this has been a very technical episode

21:21

and I've loved that. But for my final

21:23

question, I like to go a bit broader and ask

21:25

my guests, what do you think is

21:27

the big issue in Australian ag at the moment?

21:30

Big one and a dangerous one, it's the

21:33

political divide. And we're seeing

21:35

it happen in other countries a lot more

21:37

where political decisions that directly affect

21:39

farming are being made. The

21:42

banning of glyphosate or in

21:44

Sri Lanka, the cutting back of fertilizer, they're

21:46

wanting to go organic. And it's having huge

21:48

ramifications because unfortunately, the

21:51

people who are making these decisions don't

21:53

have all the information and don't understand

21:55

what the implications are. And not using science.

21:57

And so yes, so that is a huge one, which

22:00

I'd leave it to the powers to try

22:02

to work that out, but it's a worry. And as

22:04

our country becomes more and more

22:06

acidified, that you've got more and more people

22:08

who don't really understand what it is that they're

22:10

dealing with.

22:11

A lot of people grew up with city cousins or whatever,

22:13

but now that just doesn't seem to happen

22:16

as much. Or people have moved to the cities

22:18

and become more urbanized, as you said.

22:20

Yeah. But on the whole, I'm really positive

22:22

about agriculture and I think we're in a great space

22:25

at the moment. It's a really good place to be. There's great

22:27

things happening everywhere, resolving

22:29

now a lot of these problems. Yeah, I mean it seems that we're

22:31

going to have to play our part in going forward.

22:34

I mean, we could say one big issue is the whole electrification

22:36

of everything we do because

22:39

I don't know where we're going to get all our electricians

22:41

from to fix all this stuff that we're playing

22:43

with. But it's so exciting some of the

22:45

things that are coming through. And the tools that we've

22:47

got to play with now and help us do our job.

22:49

And what we can record and measure

22:51

and crops, from NDVIs to

22:54

the protein and moisture meters

22:56

and everything on our headers. And it's just giving us

22:58

so much information and ways that we can improve.

23:01

In general, I mean I think meat's going

23:03

really well and I'm really glad to

23:05

hear that there's a bit of question marks are starting to

23:07

show up in the whole systems. Because

23:11

I think meat's go really well and meat's always going to have a place.

23:13

And livestock have a place in our production

23:15

systems. There's never

23:18

any one simple thing. And I just wish people

23:20

would realize that sometimes that just because something

23:22

works really well in one area doesn't make it the right

23:24

thing for somewhere else. And to say we must ban

23:26

this or that or anything else for everywhere

23:28

is just ridiculous.

23:29

I think that's a really positive aspect

23:32

and cracking way to finish the podcast.

23:34

Paul, thanks so much for coming on today's episode.

23:37

Thanks so much, Rowan. It's been fun.

23:40

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