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0:35

Previously on cereal and she said well

0:38

I'm on holiday they're accusing you of

0:40

very serious things. Soon as I got

0:42

to the door he's to F B

0:44

I guys with you can we as

0:47

you couple questions they were accusing him

0:49

of making at a America as David

0:51

and defend the other being a detainee

0:53

sympathizer. You think you're always gonna help

0:56

you think you're Koran is correct. You

0:58

know it's a bunch of garbage. It's

1:00

a Bob Bob Barr and I'm listening

1:02

to this. I'm translating a senior airman

1:05

ottoman our. Holidays our holiday. Worked

1:07

as an Arabic translator at Guantanamo

1:09

trying to pass classified military secrets

1:11

violations of the Federal Espionage Act.

1:13

So far, three former workers at

1:15

Guantanamo have been arrested and a

1:18

probe. Allege espionage.

1:23

From Zero Productions and The New York

1:25

Times. This is serial season for Guantanamo

1:28

one prison camp told week by week.

1:30

I'm Sarah. Koenig. This

1:32

is part two of Awkward L. Halaby Story.

1:42

A. Neutral way to put it is

1:44

that the government's investigation into a possible

1:47

spiering at Guantanamo came up empty. Less.

1:50

Neutral, but still factual. Awkward. Our

1:52

hobbies criminal case was a fiasco.

1:55

A. Shameful and I admit perversely

1:57

entertaining example of what happens when

1:59

suspects then follows evidence. But.

2:02

Offers case did not end after his

2:04

sentencing. It agreed as part of

2:06

his plea deal to participate in a debriefing.

2:09

Once. I heard what went on in that

2:12

a brief I can confidently report back

2:14

is possibly even more bizarre than the

2:16

case itself. For a

2:18

long time, the debrief was the one

2:20

aspect of Us Miss Case that eluded

2:22

me. Unlike the court proceedings, there's no

2:24

public documentation of what's happened in the

2:26

degrees snow. Transcript of who said was

2:28

nothing. I didn't even know what

2:30

a Db was really. It's. Not something I

2:32

come across in. A criminal case before. So.

2:35

When I went to interview off my this was one of my.

2:37

All Caps requests City Breeze

2:39

please explain. And what is

2:41

a debrief and really know what it as well. This

2:45

is a thing we ask for.

2:47

immunity. To we got

2:49

a movie or anything. You say? And that debriefing

2:51

cat? sick. So anything that

2:54

so I could have I could

2:56

you know admit to anything and

2:58

I would not be prosecuted for

3:00

hims. And that's

3:02

why they wanted me to be

3:04

at ease and talk about this

3:06

experience. And

3:09

basically you know what we thought

3:11

supposed to go for probably

3:13

four to six weeks maximum. Oh,

3:17

started dragging on So forty

3:19

six least for work for

3:21

the do with. Of

3:23

talking everyday. Are you Kidding me?

3:26

We'd who is this for to

3:28

in my head, the mysterious debrief

3:30

lasted three or four days maybe

3:32

five at the outside and lot

3:35

to cover the does. This is

3:37

a whole production. Athlete.

3:39

Tell me every morning after breakfast he

3:41

reported to an apartment on Travis Air

3:43

Force Base and all day Monday through

3:46

Friday. He talked. Like.

3:48

A full time job talking. Have

3:50

sought some job but they would

3:52

let me go on Friday to

3:55

go. Praised. By

3:57

those shorter day. When I was with the

3:59

of seven. There's like Ahmed said, it was normal.

4:02

which I interpreted as gentleman speak

4:04

for generic sake apartment furnishings. He

4:07

also said it was wired every which way

4:09

for sound and video which fed to various

4:11

locations where people listen and watched. In real

4:14

time, he knew one listening post was

4:16

in an apartment is below them. wasn't

4:18

sure where else to. he learned much

4:20

later. There was also one of the Pentagon. So.

4:23

Those a whole apparatus that was set

4:25

up and and one of the rooms

4:27

they set up the Allegra. On.

4:30

Day one, athlete met make and

4:32

chess to fresh interrogators who'd had

4:35

no previous involvement with his case.

4:37

Mike was from the Airforce Office of

4:39

Special Investigations. the O S I. Just.

4:42

Was from the F B I. We

4:44

got the main things out of the

4:47

way immediately. like in the first few

4:49

days you start talking about you know

4:51

their skin eyes and he knows cause

4:53

tell us tell us everything no problem

4:55

for whatever you say like even if

4:58

you mishandled or gifts anything information. Overall.

5:01

Or dislike. What

5:03

safe space? Redesign

5:05

of the Truth Earring in trouble.

5:08

We. Just need to know the truth and

5:10

the point of is it is. To

5:13

know where their own investigation went

5:15

wrong or what? What Are they

5:18

trying? To learn or or. Or

5:21

guess at at the time. I

5:23

don't really know. I

5:25

don't know exactly what was objective,

5:28

but I singer was to learn

5:30

from. You know, lessons learned on

5:32

what went wrong with the case

5:35

because it started so high and

5:37

it ended solo. Awkward

5:40

was working off the. Same premises I was that

5:42

the government knew they'd made a half of

5:44

his case and now wanted to understand where

5:46

it had gone wrong. You. Don't

5:48

often hear the military admitting it's mistakes, but

5:50

you figure if they must know and care

5:52

when. They screwed up. So.

5:54

Awkward spy case with a stand in for the way

5:56

we handled. Our suspicions about many of the

5:59

prisoners at one time now and I believe

6:01

it was then. This debrief was a rare

6:03

window into how we dealt with our mistakes.

6:06

That's. Why we're so curious about the

6:08

D Breeze. I wanted to know once they

6:10

were all out of the court room, once

6:12

they'd settled into comfortable chairs and listen their

6:15

ties for an off the record lawyer free

6:17

discussion in which everyone. Could be straight with each

6:19

other. With. The government finally

6:21

see itself and Osman clearly.

6:24

What? Lesson with it. Learn. But.

6:27

Even a conversation like that I still

6:29

could not envision how it could sustain

6:31

for weeks on end. All

6:33

ages going over every aspect of of your

6:35

case or what. or did it branch out

6:38

into like. Tell me everything that happened

6:40

from the mommy that of on her our

6:42

were have what were they wanting than know.

6:45

What My life? Like Everything not

6:48

only once Animal? Yeah, so from

6:50

like. Syria from the day

6:52

that I remember. You know, All

6:55

kinds of memories I have no

6:57

from Serio to do their who

7:00

Rose. Brothers sisters are all

7:02

but know where I work for friends.

7:04

How did I come to the states?

7:06

People I met you know. Michigan

7:09

and California And And Guantanamo And Than

7:12

Online And Than My Wife And Than.

7:15

So I have somewhere or. You're. Blowing

7:17

my mind. I don't understand the

7:20

so so are they do you

7:22

think? from the questions you're describing

7:24

to me, it sounds like they're.

7:27

They're suspecting you still might be

7:29

a spy or someone who could.

7:31

Become. Aspire, be disloyal says days is

7:34

as a sense you got or know. Why

7:37

do they want to know every contact? You've ever

7:39

had, every person you've ever met, everything

7:41

you've ever done well. Maybe that duds.

7:44

Armor for that was the intention,

7:46

but it we ended up talking

7:49

about like every aspect of my

7:51

life. like. Like

7:54

even. He knows

7:57

sexual orientations even you know,

7:59

like. Any abuse You

8:01

know that I see your

8:03

experience or were literally at

8:06

everything. Out

8:09

have to state the obvious here.

8:11

I had fundamentally misunderstand the purpose of

8:13

this. The. Breeze. Apparently.

8:16

So it augment the. Polygraph equipments the

8:18

tipped us off. The

8:21

sea breeze would roll out like

8:23

a three act play, showing how

8:26

the procedural devolved into the personal.

8:28

And then as you'll soon see

8:30

the nonsensical. As after the break.

8:52

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9:53

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9:55

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9:58

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10:00

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10:19

Eight seven The questions Akhmad said they

10:21

were asking Either the government's still thought

10:23

auckland my be a spy. Or

10:25

else maybe this is just a cover your ass

10:27

operation. What? They had to come up

10:29

with some negative information to justify. The government's

10:32

exertions over. The. Past year and a half. Augments

10:34

that he wasn't sure, but he did start to

10:36

get a sense of what they were looking for.

10:39

He told me the detainee letters were a

10:41

big subject with Stephen like. Remember

10:44

this one day they went out to lunch. They're

10:46

sitting at a restaurant and Jeff and Mike looked

10:48

at him and said they were out of the

10:50

room. Now off the base know makes no cameras,

10:52

just tell us. Did. You Miss Translate.

10:55

You know, by taking shortcuts greetings instead

10:57

of a whole paragraph of prayers. Does

11:01

it come up during awkward sentencing hearing? At.

11:03

The eleventh hour prosecutors had called to

11:05

the Stan a Guantanamo linguist whom athlete

11:07

had trained to say that augment had

11:09

told him to be. Quote merciful to

11:11

the brothers in his translations. Example

11:14

he gave was the word infidel. The

11:17

linguists said that Ultimate instructed him he's

11:19

a softer word. Nonbeliever.

11:22

Over lunch off my toll, Jeff in my eggs look

11:25

a yeah I did sometimes do that. Yeah

11:27

I choose maybe a softer words

11:29

or use you know a different

11:32

words that would convey the meeting

11:34

the meaning without using these horse

11:36

kids. He. Said he wasn't doing

11:38

it to surreptitiously help the detainees, though. He.

11:41

Was doing it he said because from the context.

11:43

Of the letter, a word like infidel

11:45

was incorrect. It was going

11:47

for accuracy he said efficiency. They

11:49

were happy that I was same. Deal.

11:52

At all. this is great information so they

11:54

were happy that I was like opening up

11:56

and saying all these things about the way

11:58

we celebrated. Or away

12:01

I translated the letters and I'm

12:03

they were excited because it seemed

12:05

like you are finally. Confessing the

12:07

something that you had done wrong

12:09

or was it more like oh

12:11

now. And we're excited because now

12:13

we understand. What? You're actually

12:16

doing It's no big. They were happy that

12:18

I confessed young, they're having my job. So

12:20

this is a thing that we want to

12:22

the says. On. Camera So now you

12:24

go back to we gonna go back and we

12:26

don't have to the same courses. Yeah so the

12:28

same. Way. But.

12:31

It's gonna be on camera and we did

12:33

that. The goes is great. So we went

12:35

and we did a polygraph. I think after

12:37

that. This. Sounded

12:39

unnerving. To me. But. For

12:42

ottoman. This. Was a lot less painful

12:44

than when he just been through. He. Wasn't in

12:46

jail, he was still getting a paycheck. From the

12:48

Airforce busy hadn't yet formally separated from

12:50

the service. He was in a

12:52

process of moving all space to his own apartment. Chef.

12:55

In my personally, he didn't mind answering

12:57

their questions. And. Then

12:59

this sea breeze took a detour that

13:01

will just keep this phrase in mind.

13:03

Your tax dollars at work. Rember

13:07

Hoffman. We're supposed to get married before

13:09

this whole thing started Now. He's a few

13:11

weeks into the degrees and a year and a half

13:13

way for his own wedding. My. Fiance

13:15

arrives. His fiance runner and

13:17

her father fly in. From Dubai for

13:20

a visit often and run a quickly married

13:22

and the salon oh county courthouse across the

13:24

street from where off minutes and his first

13:26

terrible night in jail after his arrest. Burned.

13:29

In I wanted to take her to

13:31

like Lake Tahoe and the they came

13:33

along too late though. That.

13:35

His his interrogators came along

13:37

to Lake Tahoe. Yeah,

13:40

it'll have any of that

13:42

know just to. Offered

13:45

said taking runner and her dad to Tahoe

13:47

was his idea, his reservation and everything. But

13:49

then Mike and ever like once you let

13:52

us take care of it. Your. Rooms

13:54

at the Embassy Suites their on us and

13:56

you know tongue was so nice is some

13:58

a year so don't we just. Hum

14:00

along. So.

14:02

Off they all went to Lake Tahoe on

14:04

an all expenses paid by the government excursion.

14:07

So we spent three days later. I'll.

14:11

Join them Snow covers most known to

14:13

viruses with amazing. So

14:17

he enjoyed the time and away.

14:19

And then. And then

14:21

even after Tahoe, they continue to

14:23

spend quality time with my contests.

14:26

In I've invited them to my

14:28

apartment. Grain are cooked some food

14:31

for them so getting to know

14:33

them on a personal level. Again,

14:37

doesn't sound odd. Nope.

14:40

I'm until name. Strangely enough, I wasn't

14:42

bothered by it. Of.

14:44

A but I still thought it was weird and I thought

14:46

it was weird that off mid didn't think it was weird

14:48

said run I think it was weird. She

14:51

did. With without them

14:53

would be better. For

14:56

you you feel feel, Feel something wrong

14:58

with them? They are from the

15:00

government. Says

15:02

that they were nice guy

15:05

but I prefer to stay

15:07

with us live without them

15:09

but. What's the

15:11

when? As louis a weekend as do anything. With.

15:14

It kind of our honeymoon in

15:16

a way. Yes,

15:18

sides soup but. Not

15:21

as a new moon with with

15:23

my dad and that defines my

15:26

it yet not. Like

15:29

seventy one. But it was no ship. Run

15:38

a new. they were being observed. She said

15:40

that the were polite helpful even when

15:42

runner Dad arrived at the San Francisco

15:44

airport. so is Mike and Jeff who

15:46

met them. Who ushered them through customs

15:49

and immigration almost as if my gun jeff

15:51

for their hosts rather than off men who

15:53

waited in the? It

15:55

was odd that not bad

15:57

runner remembers cooking and elaborate.

16:00

Dinner for them at the apartment. Trying her best

16:02

to show them that she and automated. Were

16:04

normal people. To remember

16:06

is just telling her the food

16:08

made him feel like he was

16:10

in heaven as they didn't So

16:12

me that they are that like

16:14

and investigators like that. They

16:17

they saw me like get there

16:19

are here to help us. Ah,

16:23

Yeah. I've

16:29

missed that He knew. He was being made to feel

16:31

comfortable so that he would trust make a

16:33

jazz. And therefore would spill to make

16:35

and yes, but often as practical it

16:37

agreed to this debrief. His attitude was

16:40

I'm being handled, I'm letting myself be

16:42

handled. Which. So far I can handle.

16:45

You. Know every day I'll show up they

16:47

go up to the door and a

16:49

shake hands some in a week is

16:51

on. The cheeks became this very very

16:54

friendly and I think they were asked

16:56

to do this and this state did

16:58

it because the support of the conservative.

17:00

Fine. I liked it. But

17:03

as a discusses took longer

17:05

and we pass the six

17:07

weeks smarts and we're not

17:09

finished yet. December,

17:12

an hour in January. Rather,

17:19

in her father had last the world

17:21

strangers non honeymoon was over. Run

17:24

this time off mid says. The debriefing

17:26

began to sour. In large

17:28

part because of the polygraphs, he found

17:30

them terrifying. He said

17:32

the ruff rhythm of the debrief was that

17:34

they discuss one topic for a day or

17:37

two or three and then an Airforce calligrapher

17:39

would hook him up to the machine and

17:41

question him about that topic. and if you

17:43

past everyone was happy and they'd move onto

17:45

the next topic. But. Sometimes he

17:47

didn't pass. They would

17:49

still accuse me of hiding things and

17:52

like, specially when I do the polygraph

17:54

and like inconclusive for like or because

17:56

you're putting so much as on me

17:58

like it's as like. You know,

18:00

asking you? Have you ever done anything wrong

18:02

in your life from how many things he

18:05

can see, say no, Have an agency take.

18:08

Oh no. Probably six, seven, Eight

18:11

auto. Know there were a lot.

18:14

Of my doesn't recall the actual questions

18:17

during the polygraph. So much as the

18:19

ceiling. Of. Knowing he wasn't performing well and

18:21

not knowing how to fix it. He

18:24

was also aware that people all. Over the

18:26

place where listening to every word he said

18:28

with stressed amount even more. He's.

18:30

At the Beleaguer for an My can.

18:32

Just wanted him to admit he'd mistranslated

18:34

letters or past things to detainees, and

18:36

he didn't think he'd done any other.

18:38

Not like they were saying anyway. But.

18:41

As answers weren't and ass it

18:43

wasn't enough. For instance for asked

18:45

me to admit he'd use afterwards

18:47

and his translations. They. Wanted me

18:49

to say okay, so we we

18:52

all mistranslated letters and they wanted

18:54

me to implicate other people. Have

18:57

heard is so many times you've got immunity

19:00

man gone. Just don't worry about it when

19:02

I got a prosecutor for it because I

19:04

have immunity but others don't so maybe that

19:06

will go after. A

19:09

meal or samir for of you

19:11

know. So this is where a

19:13

god really either deals like it

19:16

gets incense, resistance, They

19:19

kept mentioning stuff that scared the shit out of

19:21

them. He said that maybe some of the criminal

19:23

charges against him that had been dismissed could resurface

19:25

and their. Or that he could

19:28

be surveilled and definitely. He'd

19:30

leave these sessions red faced, unable to

19:32

sleep, Because he'd made then upset.

19:35

By the end of January two and a half. Months

19:37

after it started off my couldn't

19:39

take it anymore. It was painful

19:41

than became. So

19:45

I complained to my lawyers. Are

19:48

like you know these before bring a lot

19:50

of pressure on me. I'm already mentally drained

19:52

us. win over a year and a half

19:54

doing this. You

19:56

know I want to. Stopped. One

20:00

of the off from that was

20:02

high asian news got like really

20:04

frustrated with something anyone and he

20:06

punched though the for presentation board

20:08

that we have friends even though

20:11

on a whiteboard or something. White

20:13

white white board. yeah. So

20:16

I was your those complaining to my lawyers

20:18

like you know. It's.

20:21

Frustrating. sometimes. Voices

20:23

raised in New Zealand and he punched like

20:25

the walls. I didn't mean that was already,

20:28

but. The thing. My

20:31

learn and know and then they want

20:34

a really nasty complaint letter. I

20:36

got a hold of this letter signed. By Air

20:38

Force Major Jamie T. one apartments

20:41

three attorneys he wrote. Basically, and

20:43

as we know what you're up to,

20:45

you treating Osmond like a Guantanamo detainee

20:47

in an interrogation are poor building than

20:49

the bullying. The whole reason we negotiated

20:51

the terms of this debrief was put

20:54

out of a concern that the interrogators

20:56

would use the technique of befriending the

20:58

subject and then alternately using friendly overtures

21:00

and harsh treatment as a means of

21:02

extorting put on close cooperation from him.

21:05

the sort of. Techniques normally reserved

21:07

for enemy prisoners. It

21:09

appears that this was in fact done. This.

21:12

Is not the mature discussion we bargained for

21:14

on. With

21:20

my contract. confronted him about the scathing

21:22

letter what does this work out, Why

21:24

you complaining and that we do this.

21:27

You know why you sign this about

21:29

us. Yeah, er

21:31

in de sus. I

21:34

want us to focus on. let's say they

21:36

were like hair though. we're friends, jokes and

21:38

away are you complaining And. Nine

21:44

days later, On February six, two

21:46

thousand and five, the degree finally

21:48

ended. Och med was free to go.

21:52

Awkward says no one from the government. Ever told

21:54

him he was cleared of suspicion that he

21:56

had nothing to worry about to for quite

21:59

a while afterwards. They were a. His

22:01

military career was over. He apply for

22:03

jobs and he says he got very

22:05

close a few times the then suddenly

22:07

the offers would vanish run as visa

22:09

application seem to have stalled. People who

22:11

they are friends kept their distance is

22:13

pretty sure is being monitored. After about

22:15

seven months he gave up. Left the

22:17

country move to the U A E. And

22:21

twenty fifteen, he finally came back. To Michigan

22:23

and time to repair his relationship with

22:25

his father, whom he disobeyed all those

22:27

years earlier by leaving home to join

22:29

the military. Sitting

22:39

and augments office in a suburb of Detroit,

22:41

he runs a nonprofit that helps refugees and

22:43

other displaced people around the world. He

22:46

told me he was still in interment in touch with

22:48

Jeff from the F B I they were facebook. Friends.

22:51

Which. I talked to mean friends and quotation

22:54

marks. As I mean if he thought

22:56

Jeff would talk to me. And. Augments sort

22:58

of idol he texted jazz. And

23:00

just texted back and suddenly. There

23:05

on the phone. Oh oh my god,

23:07

How are you. I'm

23:10

good with hug lies. That

23:14

that's Oh My. God. How is.

23:18

This is not how a quote unquote friend

23:20

sounds when you call him. This is how

23:22

someone sounds when they've been waiting years to

23:24

hear your voice. Just

23:26

shouted to his wife Lori

23:28

sort. Of

23:31

his. And

23:35

this is definitely Not how someone sounds if they

23:37

think. They're talking to a. Secluded

23:40

you think he was talking to. Us

23:43

after the break. If

23:55

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up for your free thirty day

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trial at audible.com/serial. When

24:25

I asked chess Lynette what I thought

24:27

of as know exactly a throwaway question

24:29

but certainly a let's get started question.

24:32

How. Do you end up on augments case he

24:34

told me this day. After

24:36

Nine Eleven than F B I Director

24:39

Robert Mueller was reorienting the Bureau to

24:41

help fight terrorism, and as part of

24:43

that, Jeff had been called into his

24:45

boss's office and Sacramento to discuss his

24:47

own work, mostly investigating violent crimes against

24:50

children and how. He coordinated local

24:52

law enforcement. And during

24:54

that conversation. He

24:57

noted in me that I

24:59

was. Having. Emotional.

25:03

Difficulties. And he

25:05

out of he asked me. you know.

25:08

Or. Your case add.you don't my thirties

25:10

if the I was first time.

25:13

a buddy sp that and I def

25:15

as i never been asked the question

25:17

before I wasn't sure. I.

25:20

Really wasn't prepared for it. I guess is the

25:22

best way to say it. And

25:24

our. And when he

25:26

said daddy kind of opens up the

25:28

door and I told him that I

25:30

wasn't sure how I was and that

25:33

I was very concerned I hurt my

25:35

family. So we

25:37

started just. Got a strong chin and

25:39

a robust mustache that he wears Hmong.

25:41

Not a full Yosemite Sam that headed

25:43

that way and in fact just had

25:45

experience in Yosemite. Among the murderers

25:47

and serial killers he managed to get confessions

25:50

from was a man who killed for women

25:52

near Yosemite National Park and Ninety Ninety Nine.

25:55

Jeff. It also sell some horrific sexual

25:57

abuse cases. He. Was known as the F

25:59

B I. Being a master. Interviewer.

26:02

He did it. He said by emphasizing. Not.

26:05

Only with victims of ghastly crimes, but

26:07

also with perpetrators. I. Like to think

26:09

of myself as the Barbara Walters of the F B I.

26:11

He told me. Before. We did

26:13

this interview Jeff wanted. Me to read the book he

26:15

wrote about his career called in the Name of The

26:18

Children in It He writes about how he allowed himself.

26:20

To be vulnerable and his work

26:22

which brought him professional success but personal

26:24

anguish. How he clawed back

26:26

from breakdowns and suicide attempts. How he

26:28

felt alienated. From his beloved was and son's.

26:31

How they suffered because of him. When

26:34

his boss it awesome, are you okay? Just

26:36

said he was sixty two getting ready to

26:38

retire. Shift. On His boss promised

26:40

them I will send you for whatever

26:43

therapy you need and Jeff promises boss

26:45

I won't get any more concessions. Meeting

26:47

I won't further tax my own psyche.

26:50

Before. He retired though just sparse

26:52

told him back in for one

26:55

more job. And. Unusual saver.

26:57

Several. Months later he came

27:00

up to be in. Estimates

27:02

are pretty much Told me

27:04

he wanted me to do

27:06

an interview at Travis Air

27:08

Force Base with an airman

27:10

and dad are regarded or

27:12

some duties. he had it

27:14

Guantanamo and are was to

27:16

try and determine from the

27:18

individual exactly what he had

27:20

been involved in. And

27:24

that's it. That's all they told you. Pretty.

27:26

Much? Yeah. Stay.

27:28

Ah I do. I never got

27:30

wake up a full briefing of

27:33

the circumstances. As

27:36

and that's okay because my philosophy

27:38

is that I should be able

27:40

to talk to anybody and figure

27:42

anything out. So.

27:49

What exactly was the government's goal here

27:51

I confess to catholic now felt like

27:53

adobe notion that. You know, at first

27:55

I assumed you guys are trying to figure out

27:58

where the government's criminal case against us med zagged

28:00

us court. as in. How did we get

28:02

the So wrong? Love. With.

28:05

This was just said with a damage

28:07

assessment. Pure and simple. Making

28:09

sure that if there's any further

28:11

threat, anything else that could be

28:14

determined from talking to ask made

28:16

that would make things safer. That

28:18

was our go. What

28:20

had off my done With Whom had he done it?

28:23

Had sensitive are classified information.

28:25

Leaked beyond the government's control and

28:28

possibly into enemy hands. Notable

28:31

fact about yes he was not a national.

28:33

Security guy he'd were. To investigations like

28:35

that early in his career but that sets

28:37

the jeff will be working with Mike From

28:39

the Oh aside South is a Special Investigations

28:42

which is like the Air Force's detective agency.

28:45

Just said he thought make did have some counterterror.

28:47

Experience he couldn't remember for sure. I haven't

28:49

been able to talk to make he hasn't

28:51

responded to us. In any

28:53

case, before the debrief began, Jeff explain.

28:56

To the O S I folks how he typically

28:58

works. And I explained

29:00

to them that dumb. My

29:03

way of doing interviews is to

29:05

learn about people to understand who

29:07

they are, where they come from,

29:09

and to see an emotional window

29:12

so to speak or or and

29:14

emotional The war. I believe that

29:16

with the exception of psychopaths, everybody

29:18

has an emotional door. As they

29:20

told me they didn't agree with

29:23

their flaws see but said I'd

29:25

be going in any way and

29:27

so they did not agree with

29:29

that philosophy. Now, they did not

29:31

agree. With what I

29:34

said was the way I did

29:36

my interviews and.the person who was

29:38

talking to me he said to

29:40

me hey you know arabs don't

29:42

have feelings and they don't know

29:44

how to seal and blubber blocks

29:46

on you know I don't. I.

29:49

Don't feel that that person as

29:51

any. I'm. I

29:53

don't I didn't. Accept what he

29:55

told me. From. I just

29:57

had gleaned about off. Made from the Airforce content.

30:00

Then he said he expected him to be

30:02

this quote hardened Islamic terrorist leaning guy who

30:04

helped the terrorists. do their thing. But.

30:06

When Jeff only met him in that word of

30:08

apartment, he said awkward seemed more like a little

30:11

boy. Or he was

30:13

scared he was very scared and

30:15

dog bites I young I looked

30:17

it off measure and I believe

30:19

is that was a person that

30:21

might be nice to talk to.

30:24

Off I didn't appear to be an

30:26

inscrutable, emotionless psycho. The Air force's wisdom

30:28

about Arabs notwithstanding. Just it he said

30:30

back that first day. while Mike to

30:32

bullied. This. Is an Airforce case and like

30:34

knew more about it than he did. But.

30:37

By day to just began. Asking about

30:39

athletes background, his family. He.

30:41

Could tell Syria met a lot talk med. I.

30:44

Could see something in him he said. So I went

30:46

after it. Offered told

30:48

them about a terrible car accident in

30:50

which his cousin had been killed back

30:52

in Damascus. how did made him feel

30:54

to see his cousins body prepared for

30:56

burial? Chef. And Mike felt like they

30:58

were getting somewhere. And. I was

31:01

good. We could see that awkward was

31:03

was hurting. Hurting.

31:05

Apparently was a good thing. Which. Threw

31:07

me a little. I kept trying to catch up

31:09

to which as telling me about his message. And

31:12

then odds the next morning when we

31:14

came in and got ready start up

31:16

on off med Emotionally told the says

31:18

he was thinking about taking his own

31:21

life. Don't wait, That was

31:23

on day three. Yes,

31:25

Oh No. I'm.

31:27

Not proud of his Sarah

31:30

and as I'm sitting here

31:32

telling you this is hurts

31:34

and because I've had two

31:36

other people take their lies

31:38

because of my interviews and

31:40

dumb so might was surprised.

31:42

I was shocked. And

31:44

the Airforce guys realize that augment had a.

31:48

And so after is that revelations

31:50

did he? I was sorry. Suggested

31:52

to say though did did

31:54

he say why. I.

31:57

Meant why I made was talking suicide.

32:00

Our goal in the interview was

32:02

to determine why what what happens

32:04

inside a him to cause him

32:06

to one I. Think.

32:09

About doing something so against

32:11

his beliefs and religion. And

32:13

that's how. I.

32:15

Pry into people. That's how

32:17

I learn about them. And

32:21

I know that the air Force treated me

32:23

quite differently after that and I know there's

32:25

a lot of people that look on that

32:27

is a sense of our well as really

32:29

good but I'll feel real good about it.

32:33

But anyway, how guys do though?

32:35

Like how did you handle that?

32:39

On. We took a break after

32:41

he said that to us. We

32:43

both expressed our concern to each

32:45

other about Och Med and we

32:47

both agreed that we were going

32:49

to try and rehabilitate him back

32:51

to the point where he wanted

32:53

to live. It

32:57

felt like Jeff was talking about one thing:

32:59

the effectiveness of his approach warts and all

33:01

while I was stuck on what sounded to

33:03

me like crisis. If

33:06

your interview subject talks about suicide

33:08

crisis, know the from thousand and

33:10

no one called pause game. Instead,

33:12

Jeff was saying that he might

33:15

put their therapist hats on top

33:17

of their interrogator hats and forged

33:19

ahead. It sounded natalie

33:21

nutty to me. that dangerous. Just

33:24

had to be misremembering. Last

33:26

adamant about this later he says it did

33:28

happen. He did feel hopeless.

33:30

the case has lied self track now this

33:32

questioning to remember saying something like i want

33:34

this whole thing to and i'm sick of

33:37

this life but he says he never would

33:39

have done at. The only

33:41

part he disputed was that he remembers it happening

33:43

a little later on. In

33:45

any case, admin told me just called him twice

33:47

check on him that night. Which. He

33:50

appreciated. And. Also found annoying. Then

33:54

came to visit from off my the on

33:57

runner and her father. The

33:59

Air Force brought. Ah mais

34:01

fiance and her father

34:03

out who high as

34:05

well. To. Reason chef

34:07

explain sometimes. A. Change of scenery or

34:10

teach a company Can seek information, lose.

34:12

Maybe. They pick up on something they miss before.

34:15

Second, Therapy. Just.

34:17

Said they were hoping that is it would make I must feel

34:19

better. Suggested. Make smooth

34:21

the arrival of San Francisco Airport for run

34:23

and her father. As and

34:25

are they are sick I don't

34:28

even member where there were saying

34:30

whatever books one of the activities

34:32

was of for my it's an

34:35

ice to take off med his

34:37

fiance and her father of up

34:39

to see like Taco. Well.

34:42

Not just making Jeff. And I

34:44

invited my wife Lori with me. So.

34:47

She came with us but the thing

34:49

I mean it was a wonder. It

34:51

was a wonderful time basis. The you

34:53

of Oxford, his fiance, her dad, and

34:56

then you and your wife and miles

34:58

from the Airforce. And that's like your

35:00

six. That's. Your group of sex for

35:02

dinner? Yes! This

35:06

is everyone. Just like pretending

35:08

everything's normal. Like. I don't

35:10

know. How are you in a. While

35:13

we we we interacted like people

35:15

going out for dinner together. And

35:17

might deny though I will say.

35:20

We were trying to assess

35:22

Ah, the father in law.

35:25

We were trying to assess if

35:27

there was any seeing. That.

35:30

Would take place outside what we

35:32

consider to be normal relationship. And

35:34

the bottom line to his I gotta

35:36

tell ya, what Are the most

35:38

afraid of What I was most concerned

35:40

over when I feel bad about

35:42

today. Is. It there

35:45

was such a generalized

35:47

prejudiced against people from

35:50

the Middle East as

35:52

Arabs that. Off. Meds

35:54

fiance was wearing. you know, the

35:56

Burke and all that stuff. Know.

36:00

I'm not wearing a burqa, I'm I'm

36:02

a wedding dresses up. A. Burqa covers

36:04

your whole body and face the her job

36:06

as a headscarf. Continue. And

36:09

i'm sitting on my got some sort of

36:11

see all of us because we're seizure of

36:14

they're going to think we're all from the

36:16

middle east are gonna kill us but dumb

36:18

luckily our everybody you know look thin layers

36:20

or whatever but nothing bad happens and it

36:22

was a wonderful leave me we went out

36:25

we had a wonderful dinner and say learned.

36:27

Nothing from the family does it well. They

36:29

learn. Renault is a good cook said still talks

36:31

about that. Nielsen it them that as have

36:33

minimal national. Security interests. And

36:36

especially after off miss breakdowns The Airforce

36:38

brass is expecting big things. An apartment

36:40

Just said. Just and make had

36:42

a problem now. They're sessions

36:44

with off med pretty sluggish. And the

36:46

concession department. Was your costly of

36:49

in each other? When we

36:51

miss because Roger and what we

36:53

think we should be you are

36:55

and not was ah we didn't

36:57

hear anything about him. Freezer

37:00

and or has seen eyes are

37:02

know what was he doing To

37:04

have gotten himself in this situation

37:07

and so we started exploring was

37:09

awesome idea what what did he

37:11

do any wasn't hit on anything.

37:14

No. Indication awkward was a spy or

37:16

new any spies. So. They started

37:19

hooking up made up more and more

37:21

to the polygraph machine which just said

37:23

can be a useful tool but in

37:25

office case the polygraphs are doing more

37:27

harm than good. It. Seems to

37:29

just as if the less they got out of

37:31

off med the more leeway the military gave to

37:33

the polygraph her and as beleaguer for as he

37:35

never been as bonner wanting a certain result from

37:38

och med parading him. Which. Not only

37:40

meant the reading was gonna be crap anyway, but

37:42

also they could see off mid faltering every time

37:44

he came back from one Just said he been

37:47

a state. Which. Might

37:49

and I both understood it and Might

37:51

was really good at finding some ways

37:53

to get off. made to feel better

37:55

so a better suited to start feeling

37:57

better they the item in for polygraph

37:59

again. And. What ended

38:01

up happening sarah is that in

38:04

a period of about two weeks

38:06

off med was polygraph like seven

38:08

times. Just said all

38:10

the polygraphs infuriated him and Mike to

38:13

they were having big sites about it

38:15

behind the scenes. Had the Airforce. But.

38:17

Just as they could not persuade the Air Force.

38:19

To quit with the friggin' Polygraphs. Ingest

38:24

memory the debrief died a natural death.

38:26

just kind of wound to close. Scare

38:29

members an emotional goodbye from off med.

38:31

What he did not remember was the

38:33

sharp letter from office attorney accusing them

38:36

of manipulation and intimidation when I read

38:38

it to em his taken aback mean

38:40

Jesus was spent a whole day. Most

38:42

him he got hot about it, we

38:44

were just interviewing him he turns doesn't

38:46

mention where we spent a whole day

38:49

moving have that was exhausting So we

38:51

took care of wherever he went we

38:53

took a month at all. I mean

38:55

we weren't up to toe or beating

38:57

up and questioning. Him: yeah I need to

38:59

be. It's i understand your ear like you're annoyed

39:02

by the as but I'd eyes the one I

39:04

had. I. Just wanted to get exaggerated. He

39:06

no one is alleging that anyone laid. A. Hand

39:08

on Artemis. By.

39:11

The they're just saying you guys

39:13

are being aggressive. Than your and and

39:16

like. Shop Prices as

39:18

you're describing behavior towards

39:20

him that was not

39:23

only aggressive, but it's

39:25

hims. eighty. Ad belittling

39:27

and ah I can tell

39:30

you. That. Never happen

39:32

with us in I never saw on the

39:34

part of might. Have as

39:36

a real see of sesame. Surface.

39:39

Taking this personally, Which. Seemed a

39:41

little absurd. To me he was athletes

39:43

interrogator and he's from office perspective.

39:47

From. Just perspective. They

39:49

were interviewing off mad, not interrogating, And.

39:51

Furthermore, he and Mike with a reasonable has

39:53

prevailing. They. Were sticking up for off med.

39:56

They were the ones telling the Airforce there was

39:58

nothing to see here. Pushing back against the. Liners

40:00

getting for Never Ending polygraphs. Plus.

40:03

They like death med. An allotment like them

40:05

back for crying out loud. There were still in contact

40:07

all these years. After.

40:10

A few minutes of cranking himself up. just picked

40:12

himself that down. The lawyers most a

40:14

month of the league. Refers were using harsh techniques

40:16

he said not him and make that

40:18

made more sense. If. Och Med said

40:21

my kid a whiteboard a must have been because

40:23

make was frustrated about the polygraphs, not because he

40:25

was angry at Off Med. Chef.

40:27

Knows they parted on good terms. And

40:30

he left us he was ready to pick

40:32

up the went back to this you a

40:34

he he did what he had to do

40:36

is right back here he got a good

40:38

job I mean in a way I look

40:40

at my can I is preparing him for

40:43

a life After this events. I

40:47

ask? Five Experience. Military attorneys,

40:50

This is all. Sound is bananas to you as it

40:52

does to me. The talking for

40:54

nearly three months. or the polygraph,

40:56

the hanging out the tahoe. and mostly

40:59

they said dan rather bananas, especially the

41:01

taco part. They said things like

41:03

highly irregular and I've never heard of

41:05

one this long. and I've never heard

41:08

of anything like this. and I can't

41:10

even. One of

41:12

the attorneys had a federal terrorism case that

41:14

involved a pretty long the breeze. All the

41:16

attorneys agreed actually that yeah, debriefs and. Terrorism

41:19

cases that's non canon. This

41:23

is my best. The

41:25

Air Force approached off miss the Breeze as

41:27

if they were trying to ring information out

41:29

of a terrorist or a guy. Who might

41:31

know terrorists and wrote in an F

41:33

B I agents no not for his

41:36

Counter Terror expertise since he had none

41:38

to for his Barbara Walters ability to

41:40

get people to confess. The rub though

41:42

was it often had nothing to tell

41:44

certain the and they were breaking down

41:46

and in Jefferson building back up a

41:49

young airman. For no reason at all. I

41:58

had one last thing to clear. Which asked. What

42:01

did he think Auckland had actually. Done. Still, he

42:03

just had been pissed about the polygraph.

42:05

Start the whole thing, drag onto long

42:08

all those weeks, sitting in the same

42:10

room, talking about the same thing, scraping

42:12

after nonexistent information. I think you're just

42:15

that. The whole case against Off Mid

42:17

was bogus. On the other hand, he

42:19

kept saying things like his actions or

42:22

the situation I had gotten himself into.

42:25

What was he talking about? What

42:27

did he think the situation was

42:29

in my opinion, The

42:31

concerns that was generated about

42:34

Och Med. Was. Actually,

42:36

a byproduct of what

42:39

I believed. Was.

42:42

Illicit behavior by James.

42:44

Yeah, We

42:46

learn things about him. And.

42:48

I've just talked a lot about Captain James

42:50

He the Army Chaplain who is part of

42:52

that circle of friends who hung out together

42:55

and prayed together. guantanamo. Stay and och

42:57

Med had worked together on the person box. Captain.

43:00

He had also been accused of spying and

43:02

his charges have been told. The

43:04

Jeff with somehow certain the James he was

43:07

up to something. He. Threw out

43:09

allegations about James. See that I won't

43:11

repeat because I don't believe their facts

43:13

to support them. But Jeff was an

43:15

investigator who often dealt with Predator personalities.

43:17

And so that was the lens he applied. To Osmond

43:20

Story. He. Said he took advantage

43:22

of augments ne the tae. He

43:24

put his face it a person who was

43:26

using him because I knew it wasn't just

43:28

awkward that was evolved in this group and

43:30

the one thing they all had in common

43:33

was use. Chef. Acknowledged he

43:35

had never spoken to you didn't know the

43:37

ins and outs of use case but he

43:39

insisted From what he could tell he was

43:41

to blame for what happened to us Med.

43:44

Which confuse me in a couple of

43:46

ways. First, because I don't know of

43:48

any evidence either public or secret showing

43:50

the James he had done anything subversive

43:52

at Guantanamo. And second just

43:54

seem to be saying off mid and

43:56

others had done something wrong. But.

43:59

Can I see? I think I'm I'm a

44:01

little school. And

44:03

she's sort of base. I'm confused.

44:06

What? Was your understanding of what he did?

44:08

You like what he actually did do. All

44:12

what I. Believed he

44:14

had done was a compromise.

44:17

The mission. Of

44:19

the nicest, the Airforce

44:22

by assisting the Guantanamo

44:24

detainees and communications to

44:27

help their cause. Ah,

44:34

A fellow. Sets

44:37

in the five. Hundred Ellison said that. Says

44:41

that is all I know by the

44:43

said well come. As that's not true, like

44:45

that's not what he pled guilty to. Where.

44:48

Do you plead guilty to. Attorney the

44:50

now. I

44:52

realize just job wasn't to retry off

44:54

miss criminal case. That wasn't his mission.

44:57

But. Still, how can he properly evaluate what

44:59

Osman was telling him in that d brief

45:01

if he didn't have any contacts for when

45:04

it come before? If he didn't know anything

45:06

about Guantanamo even. I

45:08

gave him a quick rundown of Artemis case, all

45:10

the puffed up charges, Espionage and aiding the

45:12

enemy has a looked and look for evidence

45:14

of spying and ever found any. How

45:17

the case boil down to a plea? To. Mishandling

45:19

classified documents because the two photos

45:21

and handful of unauthorized papers Osmond

45:23

said he took as mementos. Just.

45:27

Had a story in his head down. A

45:29

psychological explanation. For why off my got

45:32

in trouble. He told

45:34

me auckland admitted passing messages. Among

45:36

detainees. Example he remembered was

45:38

it Osman had informed a father and son

45:41

housed in different parts of the prison

45:43

that the other one was there. At

45:45

Guantanamo and was okay. He

45:47

also said he thought Osment had may be called

45:49

a detainees relatives in the Middle East. It's

45:52

what it's one of the i think we

45:54

gotta is my personal opinion so might might

45:57

disagree as the other people or disprove me

45:59

but i. You specifically remember I

46:01

met telling us that when

46:04

he was going into Guantanamo

46:06

and he heard these cries

46:08

for family. It affected him.

46:11

And asked her what you're telling

46:13

me I sounded like he did

46:15

have the ability to alert families

46:17

that loved ones were alive. Just.

46:20

Believes athletes motive for this with

46:22

compassion. Not collusion, Osman

46:25

was trying to bring comfort to detainees

46:27

families. But. That in doing

46:29

so och med had unknowingly helped

46:31

others with their anti American plot.

46:34

I'm not saying it was right and I don't

46:36

agree with it but I also believe as I

46:38

said I think our utmost a somewhat naive I

46:40

think is a good person in here somewhat phrase

46:42

going to try to help him and I think

46:45

that's what he did. It

46:52

sounded to me like chess and maybe make

46:54

to had been working off a false premise

46:56

the entire. Time that Osman had

46:58

participated in something very bad.

47:02

I ran all this by off men who

47:05

is somewhat mystified by just take. Adler

47:07

said he did once tell a father that his

47:09

son was in another camp over. He

47:11

said the father and son had been in neighboring cells

47:13

and the sun was moved in. The dead in north

47:16

gone. But. I've missed or that

47:18

wasn't a big deal. Detainees were constantly being

47:20

moved and had their own ways of communicating

47:22

word of who was were tended to get

47:24

around without. Anyone's. Help. Probably.

47:26

The only reason he the mentioned it to

47:28

make and chassis said is because he's guys

47:31

were Syrian and that stuck out to sea

47:33

Syrians locked up in Guantanamo. And

47:36

yeah I my did find the whole

47:38

place sad and sometimes disturbing he said,

47:40

but not a way that moved him

47:42

to accept his motivation at Guantanamo he

47:44

said was to finish his deployment, get

47:46

married, and delivers list. The. Idea

47:49

that he'd have passed messages either

47:51

verbally or say inside library books

47:53

or letters, much less called anyone's

47:55

relatives back in the Middle East,

47:57

he said Preposterous. Records

48:00

augment could atoll just things he didn't tell

48:03

me. and until his attorneys and until the

48:05

judge. I doubt it. But as possible. To

48:08

be fair to Jeff, I was grilling

48:10

him on the details of Augments case

48:12

nearly two decades later. Maybe he was

48:14

conflating different threads of conversation, hindsight, nodding

48:16

them into a tapestry, the satisfied his

48:19

twin convictions that offers a good guy

48:21

and that off when unwittingly threaten the

48:23

security of the United States. Here's

48:28

what I do. You know? This. Police that

48:31

off my something disloyal, or

48:33

even ideological. Persists. Among

48:35

the government officials involved in Ah Smith case.

48:38

The prosecutor Brian Wheeler, the Airforce

48:40

investigator I spoke to on background

48:43

just too though his analysis as

48:45

most generous. They all

48:47

still believe in one way or another.

48:49

Asked me, did something to aid the

48:51

enemy at Guantanamo. Probably.

48:53

With to money. In

48:56

other words, the military and the government

48:58

learn nothing from this case. Nothing

49:01

about espionage or terrorism, and

49:03

nothing about themselves. Off

49:07

Me doesn't have sweeping systemic criticisms about

49:09

what happened to him. He

49:11

pleases cases overblown, Unfair. shot through

49:14

with prejudice. But. He also

49:16

believes both he and the government were trapped

49:18

inside a loop. It

49:20

was more theoretical attend

49:23

than anything else. Are

49:25

they worth trying to

49:27

find connections between me

49:29

and something you like

49:31

I have seen in

49:33

one of documents like

49:35

a use sorts of

49:37

my name and like.

49:39

Many. Other names. Connected

49:42

to this guy knows this guy in

49:44

the skies from Damascus and does this

49:46

guy goes to this mosque and bad

49:48

guy from there was a bad guy

49:50

knows this guy who knows this guy

49:52

and who knows cause of the same

49:54

mosques you know like a link chart

49:57

just so that this weird linked charter

49:59

like. The heck did this come

50:01

from me? Know? how did you even make

50:03

this? You know it's it, doesn't even. Make

50:06

sense to any sane person. You

50:10

know it's not about like. While

50:12

they're idiots, so there's vindictive as I

50:15

think. I think there's a

50:17

new category of. Of

50:19

where you can put all

50:22

of this Hill said the

50:24

new category of fear compiled

50:26

was saving the face and

50:29

phobia. You

50:31

know it's it's a combination of whole bunch of thing.

50:35

I've read says he saw that

50:37

same combination of things operating inside

50:39

Guantanamo. The prisoners had complained

50:41

to have armed mule they tell you.

50:43

I'm telling my interrogators all of the

50:46

story the same story every time, every

50:48

midi and he just doesn't believe it.

50:51

Why? Because. They

50:55

have read something else are they have

50:57

heard something else are they wanna see

50:59

as they can break that first. I

51:04

don't think that the

51:06

learned. Oh their

51:09

ways. Even until

51:11

today, even with the people that are there

51:13

now. I'm. I'm

51:16

not sure if they were found guilty or not.

51:18

You know. A

51:21

lot of these people were just

51:23

sent back to their country without being

51:25

charged with anything. and now they

51:27

last ten or twenty years of their

51:30

lives been a Guantanamo with the

51:32

stigma this gonna stick to them. And

51:36

they didn't have a chance to fight for

51:38

it, to fight for the rice. Told

51:44

me he thought about that when he was

51:46

in jail awaiting his trial, that the detainees

51:49

had it much worse than he did because

51:51

at least I had a legal system. He

51:53

said I could fight for my rights. Of

51:57

you don't have a legal system handy, who are

51:59

you? A Fight your way out of Guantanamo.

52:03

As next time. Heroes.

52:14

Produced by Jessica Weisberg, Dana Chivas

52:16

and Mean Or Editor is Julie

52:18

Snyder. Additional reporting by Core: A

52:20

Career and A Mere Khafaji Fact

52:22

checking by Ben Sale and and

52:24

Jessica Siriano music supervision, sound design

52:26

and mixing De Cv Wang original

52:28

score by Sofia Daily. Other sundry

52:30

editing help from Ellen Waste and

52:33

Guerra. And Ira Glass are contributing

52:35

editors are Carol Rosenberg and Rosina

52:37

Ali. Additional production from Daniel He

52:39

met Katie Mingle and Emma Grillo or

52:42

Sanders editors are Susan Westling and I

52:44

Sit on Legal review from Allah mean.

52:46

Sumer the art for sale comes. From.

52:48

Pablo Dell Khan and Mack. Scooter. Supervising

52:50

producer for Zero Productions. Is

52:52

in day to build. Our executive assistant

52:54

is Mac Miller Sam Dolnick, his Deputy

52:56

Managing Editor of the New York. Thanks.

53:00

To Janell Pifer Kelly Go and

53:02

easy Moonies can be sigh Victoria

53:04

can ask it ami. Jennifer

53:06

Hershey, Lulu and best.