0:04

I

0:10

promise not to laugh. I might

0:13

have a mild to moderate crush on

0:15

Maeve. No shit. What gave it

0:17

away? She, uh... She

0:21

touched my eyebrows. Now I have an erection.

0:26

You

0:28

said you wouldn't laugh. It

0:31

won't go away. It's been half an hour. It's

0:33

really cold.

0:40

Coldness usually works for me, but there we go. It's Ben Bailey-Smith

0:42

here. And Sasha Bates. And we return

0:45

with the second part, part two of our

0:47

look at sex education. Putting

0:49

some of these brilliant teenage characters from the

0:51

Emmy award-winning Netflix series created

0:53

by Laurie Nunn into therapy.

0:56

So last week, we looked in some detail at the female

0:58

characters of the show. If

1:01

you haven't heard that one, I strongly

1:03

advise you to go and check it out. It's the perfect accompaniment

1:06

for this one. Just like a penis and a vagina.

1:09

All right, Sasha, give us a bit of background to that

1:11

clip we just heard.

1:12

That was Otis, played by Asa

1:15

Butterfield. And he's in the school swimming

1:17

pool, can't get out for reasons that he

1:19

explained, talking to his mate Eric, played

1:22

by Shruti Gatwa. And he finally

1:24

admits that he does fancy Maeve.

1:27

We've all spotted it long before he did.

1:29

But yes, so as we know from

1:31

last week, Otis and Maeve run

1:33

a sort of sex advice clinic for their

1:35

classmates at the inaptly

1:38

named Moordale High. And

1:40

if last week was a bit female dominated, I

1:42

think we can

1:42

spend a bit of time this week on masculinity

1:45

and what being a man means for the

1:47

male characters. Who knows, who knows. And

1:49

you'd think that Otis, with

1:52

two, not just one, but two parents,

1:54

both being therapists, he'd be

1:57

super well adjusted. But that is not

1:59

the case.

1:59

Well, no, it's never really that simple,

2:03

but we'll look at his parents

2:05

and all the ways in which they do screw

2:08

him up, as parents always do, and

2:10

how the other parenting styles for

2:13

each of those boys has affected each

2:15

of them in different ways. So yeah, I think Otis,

2:17

Aria and Adam are worth

2:19

looking at. We looked a little bit at Jackson last week.

2:22

We'll

2:22

see if he pops up again. But those

2:24

three. All right. Coming

2:26

up, does seeing your parents have sex

2:29

when you're a child affect you? What

2:32

a question. Who knows? I'm sure

2:34

it's fine. What's worse as a

2:36

parent being strict or a smother-er

2:38

and we'll look also at how

2:40

useful a 16-year-old therapist can

2:42

really be? Oh yeah, and there's going

2:44

to be lots of rude words and reveals

2:47

of the plot and all of that stuff because it's

2:49

shrink

2:50

the box.

2:51

All right. And

2:56

just a quick reminder how the lead male characters

2:58

fit into Sex Education Series 1. So

3:00

this first series introduced us to

3:03

Otis, Otis Milburn, who's a teenage

3:05

boy, he lives with his sex forever as mum, but

3:07

he crucially is scared of sex. It

3:10

has a physical reaction to it. Maeve,

3:13

his schoolmate, who goes on to date

3:15

Jackson, the head boy, noticed that Otis

3:18

has this natural talent for counseling people

3:20

and giving advice after Adam Groff, the

3:22

headmaster's son, took too much Viagra

3:25

and had to hide in the toilets. Eric,

3:27

Otis' best friend who is

3:29

gay and is bullied by Adam, has

3:32

come out to his family. They're struggling with

3:34

it. And as it turns out, some of the locals

3:36

are even worse. So with that in

3:39

mind, Sash, tell us a bit about our

3:41

main client this week, Otis Milburn.

3:43

Yeah, Otis is 16, lives

3:46

with his mother, who is a sex therapist.

3:49

And his dad is two, but he's absent

3:51

since their divorce. The house that

3:53

they live in, which is ridiculously lavish

3:55

and gorgeous, is also where his mum has

3:58

her therapy consultation room.

3:59

her clients come and go. So

4:02

sex and therapy are very present

4:04

in Otis' home life. He's an only

4:06

child and yeah, his best friend is

4:09

Eric and the two of them sort of outsiders

4:12

as we kind of established last week.

4:14

So if Otis walks into your lavish

4:17

home office up in the hills. With

4:19

that view. What

4:21

would be the first thing that you'd look? Oh,

4:24

well, he is on the outside.

4:26

He's seemingly very grown

4:28

up and sensible and the sort of

4:31

nice boy next door that everybody kind

4:33

of wishes their child would be. Yeah, his mom Jean

4:35

describes him as contained, doesn't she?

4:37

She uses that word when the

4:39

plumber's asking about him. Yes, yeah,

4:42

no, that's right. And he is, he kind of looks

4:45

very

4:45

well adjusted. And in many ways he

4:48

is, but there's a lot going

4:50

on under the surface because he is very

4:52

shy. He is scared of

4:54

sex. The first thing we learn about him is he can't masturbate.

4:57

And he's really embarrassed by this. His

4:59

mom, the sex therapist, is always like on

5:01

him to get on with it. As

5:04

is Eric, who is the kind of polar

5:06

opposite in terms of sexual openness

5:09

and willingness to

5:12

get out there and get on with it. And

5:14

his mom and he live alone and

5:16

are quite enmeshed with each other.

5:19

He is like

5:20

wanting to move away as teenagers

5:23

do as we talked about last time, but his mom's

5:25

sort of holding him back. She's

5:28

struggling much more than he is with the separation.

5:30

So there's a bit of a tension going

5:32

on there. She's not very boundry. She's really not boundry,

5:34

no. She jumps into his space

5:36

like way too often. Yeah, I mean, to the point- Makes your

5:38

toes curl. Yeah, it does. I mean, to the point

5:41

where he actually puts a lock or gets

5:43

a lock put on his bedroom door to stop

5:45

her just barging in. And at one point

5:47

she actually slams right

5:49

through it. She breaks it. She's so desperate to get

5:52

into his room. And it's a good metaphor for how she

5:54

wants to just be in his head. And

5:57

wants him to stay her little boy

5:59

in many ways.

5:59

So he remains fearful

6:02

and that is one of the big sort of things

6:04

you clock with him just sort

6:06

of going about life He's he's quite

6:09

nervous quite sort of on edge. He's quite

6:11

nervous about all sorts of things.

6:13

Yeah, and has panic attacks He's even

6:15

has panic attacks and we get a sense

6:17

of perhaps where that might have

6:19

bedded in to his formative

6:22

years in this next clip

6:25

There was once a very happy horse

6:28

called Hubert Hubert

6:30

was so happy he would run around

6:33

all day long. Mummy. Hmm.

6:35

Why was daddy naked with that lady?

6:40

What do you mean darling? Daddy

6:42

was naked with that lady in his office. I

6:45

saw that bums Do

6:48

you know what sex is Otis? Sex

6:52

is when a man puts his penis inside

6:55

a woman's vagina Does

6:57

it hurt? It can Intercourse

7:02

can be wonderful But

7:05

it can also cause tremendous pain and

7:09

if you're not careful Sex

7:12

can destroy lives Happy

7:15

Hubert was going to the happy horse

7:18

festival to see all his happiness

7:20

Holy shit My

7:24

god, I mean imagine that being

7:26

your introduction to what sex is. It's

7:28

this thing that can be wonderful But mainly

7:30

it's gonna destroy your life and

7:33

the lives of many others multiple other people

7:35

faceless people that you've not even met yet That

7:38

was from series one of sex education

7:41

episode six with Jillian Anderson there

7:43

as Jean Melbourne and Reuben Crier

7:46

as a young Otis Listening to the

7:48

story of happy Hubert the

7:50

episode was written by Laurie Nunn and Freddie Seiborne

7:53

I'm directed by Kate Herron full

7:55

credits, of course at the end of this podcast

7:58

now

7:59

when I first I watched that scene, I did

8:01

find it absolutely devastating

8:03

and funny too. But

8:06

it did make me think like, would you, could

8:08

you remember something

8:11

like that for the rest of your

8:14

life? And could it affect

8:16

the rest of your life? Just those few words

8:19

and that, as well as obviously

8:21

the, I think the image is stronger, what he actually saw.

8:24

But you know, the

8:26

words are important because he needs

8:28

the image explained. He

8:30

doesn't know what he's seen. Yeah, I

8:32

mean, I think they're really pivotal moments.

8:35

The seeing of his dad with, I mean,

8:37

a client. I mean, it wasn't even just a woman

8:39

he was having an affair with. I mean, as a therapist, I

8:42

just shut, I can't even go there to think of

8:44

how awful that is, that boundary

8:46

across. But anyway, so yeah, so the

8:48

image of seeing his dad having sex

8:51

when he doesn't know what it is, his

8:53

mum explaining that sex

8:55

can destroy lives and hurts. And

8:58

then from then on, he sees nothing

9:00

but the hurts that it has

9:01

done to his mum and his family. So

9:03

he has daily reminders

9:06

that his mum has changed completely

9:08

from this betrayal. She no longer

9:10

wants to have a relationship. She now uses

9:13

men for sex. He has this parade of men

9:15

going through her bedroom and then being

9:17

summarily dismissed the next morning.

9:20

So he's seen what it's done to

9:22

her. He sees how lonely she is, despite

9:25

this sort of bravado of not

9:28

wanting a relationship. So yeah,

9:30

I mean, clients

9:31

are always saying to me, oh,

9:34

it can't because of that, that happened so long

9:36

ago, or it was just one conversation,

9:38

or it was just one thing. It that can't be why

9:40

I'm depressed or anxious or angry

9:43

now. But these things really

9:45

matter. They really, really do

9:47

stay in your brain and they can

9:51

really inform how

9:53

you then see yourself, how you see others,

9:55

what you believe relationships to be.

9:57

And it can be really hard to move on.

9:59

Of course, it's not impossible. That's why we have therapy

10:02

in the first place. That's why it's so important. People

10:04

need to be able to see, yeah, that was really

10:07

strong in that moment, but it

10:09

doesn't have to define you. It doesn't have to define

10:11

how you are. It's not everybody that

10:13

acts like that. So this

10:16

is precisely what therapy is there for

10:18

really, to be able to talk through these

10:20

really painful, life-defining

10:23

moments to realize, well, we don't have to be trapped there.

10:26

They informed what we are and who we are, but we

10:28

don't have to be stuck there. We can move on from

10:30

it. We can learn from it. We can understand

10:33

and see it from a different perspective. He's not

10:35

that, whatever he was there, that little seven or eight

10:37

year old boy anymore. He doesn't have

10:40

to respond from the same place.

10:42

But having said all that, Otis hasn't

10:44

really talked about it. He hasn't moved

10:46

on. He's still stuck there. As amazing and as true

10:49

as that theory is, that you've just said,

10:51

he doesn't know that. He

10:53

doesn't know the power

10:56

that he can have to make

10:58

his life a positive and happy place,

11:01

in general and sexually as well. What

11:04

do you think he thinks is gonna happen, if

11:07

he has sex or if he masturbates?

11:08

Well, I think it's not even that he thinks,

11:11

because it's not a thinking thing. I think this

11:13

is what happens with stuff that happens really early on.

11:15

It embeds itself in your unconscious.

11:17

So you can think all you like about who sex

11:19

is very natural and it doesn't hurt and it isn't

11:22

gonna destroy my life. But

11:24

he's not responding from a thinking place. His

11:27

brain is being overridden by the

11:29

emotional hurt that he never processed

11:31

about, oh, this

11:34

is why my mum is

11:36

like she is. And I think he's

11:38

worried unconsciously and probably

11:40

consciously as well, that he will be like his dad. That

11:43

he doesn't want to do this act

11:45

that can hurt women and

11:47

hurt himself, because I imagine his dad isn't very

11:50

happy either. He seems looking at his

11:52

little shit from the zoom calls he

11:54

has with him. But so I think he

11:56

doesn't want to be like his dad. He doesn't want to cause

11:59

hurt.

11:59

He also doesn't want to be like his mum, who's always

12:02

pushing people away. His mum's

12:04

giving him sort of mixed messages. I

12:06

was just going to say, I think there's a lot of

12:08

mixed messages because, you know, he has

12:10

a wet dream and she

12:12

can't help herself.

12:14

She has no boundaries. She

12:17

goes, he

12:18

begs her, you know, not

12:20

to go in his room. And so she immediately goes

12:22

in as soon as first opportunity, checks

12:24

the sheet, finds the soiled sheet

12:27

and she washes it.

12:29

And when she takes it out and it's clean,

12:32

she has a sort of little moment with herself. And I was

12:34

just like, what do you want? Like

12:37

you sort of encourage him to become

12:40

sexualized when he doesn't want

12:42

to. But then you also seem to want

12:45

him to like stay a little boy.

12:48

I think it must be so hard for him to know what she

12:50

wants from him.

12:51

I think it really is. And I think she

12:54

is, they're both caught in this double bind. She's

12:57

encouraging him verbally and cognitively,

13:00

you know, masturbate, be a man,

13:02

you know, grow up. It's important.

13:04

But at the same time, all her actions are saying, stay my little boy,

13:07

don't leave me. Don't put a lock on your

13:09

door. Tell me everything. Don't

13:12

be another man that leaves me on

13:14

my own. So yeah. She

13:15

says as much to the plumber, right? Yeah.

13:18

She says like, I'm scared. I'm scared. He

13:21

doesn't know how lonely he makes me feel. No,

13:23

exactly. So yeah, she's kind

13:25

of both pushing him out the door and saying, yes, individuate,

13:28

go forth. And at the same time, she's like

13:31

pulling him back by the collar saying, no, please don't

13:33

leave me and please, please stay mine

13:35

because you are the only man in my life that I can

13:38

trust. So they're both kind of stuck

13:40

really. So I think it's no wonder

13:43

really that he's kind of screwed up both from both

13:45

sides, from the early pivotal,

13:47

seeing what happens, seeing

13:50

what his mum has become, and then not wanting

13:52

to be

13:52

his dickhead of a dad.

13:54

Yeah. And I suppose she doesn't want him to

13:56

turn into that kind of man. It's

13:58

less like we're here with. with Eric

14:00

and his dad, that

14:03

really sort of sad scene in

14:05

the car where his dad says,

14:09

what kind of man do you want to become?

14:13

And Eric says, what kind of man do you want me to be?

14:16

I know. Because it feels like you're not happy

14:18

with the one that I am. Yeah. And

14:20

you know, basically is what he's saying there. So

14:23

look, I mean, let's have a look at, speaking

14:25

of Eric, let's have a look at some of the other boys

14:28

and their approach to this

14:30

really sort of delicate stage

14:32

of transitioning from

14:35

boy to young man. Let's

14:37

look at Adam. Let's look at Adam.

14:39

We'll come around to Otis.

14:40

Well, Adam sort of almost got the opposite

14:42

problem in that if Otis'

14:44

mum is too smothering

14:47

and intrusive and caring

14:49

for him, Adam's dad

14:52

could not be more different in that he doesn't

14:54

seem to care. He doesn't seem to like him. He's

14:57

constantly putting him down. He's constantly

14:59

just telling him what a failure and what

15:01

a disappointment he is. And

15:03

Adam has no softness or kindness

15:06

or warmth in his life at all. He's frightened

15:08

of his dad. And as often

15:10

happens, somebody who is bullied then becomes

15:12

a bully, because it's the only way they can get any

15:15

sort of form of self-esteem

15:17

back by projecting out everything

15:20

that's been given to him. He has to then like put

15:22

it out onto somebody else. And it's

15:24

interesting that the person that he chooses to bully most

15:27

is Eric, because Eric represents

15:29

everything that he can't be. Eric is a free spirit.

15:32

Eric does just say, this is me in

15:34

all my kind of quirky

15:37

out there, nurse. And I'm not gonna be

15:39

ashamed of myself. I'm not gonna be who

15:41

the world wants me to be or who my

15:43

dad wants me to be. I'm going to defy my father

15:46

and say, yeah, I'm gonna wear colorful clothes and

15:48

makeup and be very openly

15:51

gay and flamboyant.

15:53

And that's everything that Adam can't be. I

15:56

mean, we don't find out till later that Adam actually is gay

15:58

as well, but that will also... also be

16:00

fueling the self-loathing.

16:03

It's like, oh, he gets to be everything that I would never

16:05

let myself be.

16:06

And he's tentative. He's a very tentative

16:08

bully, isn't he? Because he never really

16:11

sort of fully bully bullies.

16:14

He's always a bit kind of like...

16:17

It's almost like he's testing the water when

16:19

he bullies. Like, could you be my friend?

16:21

Okay, no, fuck you. I'm going to bully

16:23

you. He seems to have that pattern all

16:25

the time. Even when he meets

16:28

Eric with the dogs, there's almost a moment

16:30

where it's like, hey, you've got a dog. I've

16:32

got a dog.

16:33

And then, you know, it's the one tiny

16:36

thing goes wrong. And he's back to that normal

16:38

mode. Fuck you. Covers Eric's

16:41

dad's car and dog shit.

16:43

Oh, I know. Well, he has got that. Like I say,

16:45

he's got this nasty streak, but you're absolutely right.

16:47

He's also got some really sweet moments

16:49

to him, like with the dog, like

16:52

when he sees his own dad

16:54

be proud of Jackson when Jackson wins

16:56

the swimming competition. And he sees his

16:59

dad be really proud of him. And you can see

17:01

the hurt that, oh, he's never going to look at

17:03

me with any pride.

17:06

So you see those moments of vulnerability. And

17:09

at the party, there's

17:11

a party that Amy has and Adam

17:14

is causes chaos. And he

17:16

speaks to Otis' mom, who's

17:19

much better at being as often happens

17:21

being a mom or a wise

17:24

counsel to somebody other than her own child,

17:26

because she's too close to Otis. He

17:28

shows Jean that, you know, he just wants friends

17:31

and to be liked, but he just doesn't seem to know

17:33

how to. So he does sort of open up to her

17:35

a little bit. So yeah, he definitely he wants

17:38

to be loved like everybody, but he has to like,

17:40

Maeve, he has to put on a bravado of, you

17:42

know,

17:43

I'm the tough guy. And in

17:45

this stage, I don't know what is

17:48

worse, like to be super

17:51

smothering as a parent or to

17:53

be super strict, you know, looking at them,

17:55

I'm talking about the parents in the show

17:57

here. And Adam's

17:59

seen

17:59

I mean, we don't see a lot of his mum, but when we

18:02

do see her, she's almost like

18:04

in denial of who he is. She

18:06

sort of desperately wants him

18:08

to be the thing that

18:11

he's clearly not in that moment. Like

18:13

I'm thinking about the scene where

18:17

they have an extended family over to

18:19

celebrate him winning the essay award.

18:21

Yeah. And he's, which is clearly

18:23

plagiarized. He didn't win. He did not write

18:25

it. But his mum is like sort of gleefully

18:29

celebrating him, like

18:31

a little girl, she's like fawning around

18:33

him and, oh, my clever Adam,

18:35

my funny Adam. And it's almost

18:37

like she's overcompensating. He gets nothing

18:40

from that warmth that she's

18:42

trying to give him. But then

18:44

even that warmth feels a little

18:46

forced. Yeah, it feels quite performative,

18:48

doesn't it? That whole family feel like they're

18:50

performing a role. The dad is like performing

18:53

the role of headmaster that he's clearly

18:56

not very cut out to do. And the mum

18:58

seems to be performing the happy family, which

19:00

they're not. And there's Adam performing the role

19:03

of tough guy when actually he

19:05

doesn't want to be beating up at Eric. He wants to

19:07

be having sex with him. So

19:10

none of them, they're so inauthentic,

19:14

which is complete opposite really to Eric.

19:16

But most people, including

19:18

his own father, Eric's own father, are frightened

19:21

of Eric's authenticity. But yeah, I think

19:23

all these different parenting styles leave

19:26

a trace. They all come

19:28

at a cost. I don't think it's a matter of who's

19:30

worse or who's better. It's like each one has

19:32

to be dealt with. Each one's got its own different

19:35

set of repercussions that people

19:37

then, if they don't have therapy early or

19:39

don't have friends they can talk to, spend

19:42

the rest of their lives unpicking really, which

19:44

a lot of people do if they haven't got close

19:46

friends or they're not very emotionally intelligent

19:49

or aware.

19:50

They do get stuck in

19:53

these patterns of

19:54

relating that they had from early

19:56

on.

19:56

And Jackson's

19:59

parents. They're slightly different.

20:03

There is a smothering quality to them, but

20:06

I guess different from Adam, it's

20:10

all about, or it seems to be all

20:12

about, him kind of representing

20:15

them and the family as a whole, as

20:17

well as himself, as this unbeatable

20:21

winner at life. And

20:24

it's an incredibly pressurized

20:27

environment that he's in. Yeah,

20:29

I mean, of his two mums, the white mum, definitely

20:35

seems to be

20:37

trying to get him to be something

20:39

that she couldn't. You kind of get a sense of

20:41

failed expectations from her, and I

20:43

couldn't be the best at something, so I'm going

20:45

to make sure he is almost.

20:48

It definitely feels like he's doing

20:50

it for her rather than

20:52

for him.

20:53

Yeah, you feel like she'd be maybe

20:56

not even sad, but angry if

20:59

he didn't make it. It's

21:01

interesting the way they introduced her, I don't know

21:03

if you remember, but the first time you see her, they're

21:06

running at dawn before school. And

21:09

because of who she is, an older

21:12

white woman

21:13

with a black, not a mixed

21:16

race kid, a black kid, I assumed

21:18

that she was a personal trainer. And

21:20

all the language was like a personal trainer

21:23

would to their client. She

21:25

sort of is. Yeah, so it was really

21:27

funny, like seeing her in the house was like

21:29

a reveal. I was like, oh my God, he's got two mums,

21:32

of course. Well,

21:34

I think it does depict a sort of style

21:36

of parenting that can be like being a personal

21:38

trainer or a personal executive coach.

21:41

And yeah, some parents think that's their role, just

21:43

to kind of push and push and push.

21:46

And perhaps all three of these boys, Otis,

21:49

Adam and Jackson, are struggling

21:51

with the weight of expectation. Yeah.

21:55

You know, from their parents.

21:56

Yeah, I think that's right.

21:59

Eric's the only one who...

23:54

I

24:03

just shouted at that man. Yeah.

24:10

Yeah, he did. Maybe

24:14

I am

24:16

learning from my brave son.

24:17

Yeah,

24:20

it's kind of a beautiful moment. And at the end of that

24:23

section, Eric hugs his

24:25

dad and Adams

24:26

looking on, of all people. How

24:29

many times have we seen this Adam

24:32

looking on at a

24:34

relationship that he covets or

24:36

a father that he doesn't

24:38

have? I'm

24:41

even reminded of that scene again where

24:43

they're celebrating the essay where every

24:46

individual member of the family professes

24:48

their pride in him. And he looks to his

24:50

dad and his dad's like, yeah, what they

24:52

said. Yeah. Everyone's

24:56

proud, you know. He just wants to hear,

24:58

I'm proud. But yeah, I

25:00

suppose most of all what

25:02

we get in that scene

25:04

with Eric

25:06

and his dad is that there's a sense of hope around

25:08

the corner, which is kind

25:10

of the underlying feeling of the whole

25:12

show. And hope,

25:15

of course, is what we're all after, really,

25:17

isn't it? All the time. So after

25:19

the break, we're going to be looking at male friendships

25:22

in a bit more detail. And we're going to explore

25:24

how the observing ego

25:26

helps Otis as a therapist. We're

25:29

going to be back right after these ads and a Syora

25:31

takes subscriber, in which case we'll see you in seconds.

25:34

Oh, here's a quickie for you. Eric is named Trombono

25:37

after he got an erection playing an instrument during

25:39

a school assembly. But do you remember what

25:42

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25:44

clue.

25:45

It wasn't a trombone. Kids, eh?

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28:09

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28:11

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28:13

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28:16

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28:35

All right, we're back. And you know, sex

28:38

ed fans, you wouldn't have known the answer

28:40

to the teaser straight away. But

28:42

those who aren't aware or have forgotten, Eric

28:45

played the French horn, of

28:47

course. Horn, French

28:50

letters. Yeah, come on, sex education.

28:52

Sash, we talked about female friendships

28:55

in the last episode. But what challenges

28:58

do the male characters

29:00

face in that department?

29:02

Well, I think what's really sweet is Otis and

29:04

Eric's relationship. And often,

29:08

young girls are better at making friendships

29:10

than boys, the

29:12

cliche is that boys bond over the

29:14

sport and the games

29:16

and everything. And they don't talk as much. But in fact,

29:19

we get some good depictions here of how close Otis

29:21

and Eric are and how they do talk and how much

29:23

they mean to each other. But Otis starts

29:26

to leave Eric behind a little bit when he

29:28

gets involved with the clinic and Maeve.

29:31

And I think why Eric joins bands in

29:33

the first place is because he's

29:35

feeling left out and Otis isn't there for him

29:37

as much and he's feeling quite lonely

29:40

and rejected. And that's when he

29:42

falters, we've talked about how confident he is,

29:44

but without Otis' backup,

29:47

he does start to question himself a little

29:50

bit. And when Otis

29:52

lets him down on their annual

29:55

trip to go and see a Hedwig and the Angry

29:57

Inch, and they all dress up. And

30:00

Eric is left alone on a bus

30:02

in all his outfit, which of course

30:04

does lead to him being beaten up.

30:07

And again, it's quite a good representation

30:09

of how without your friends there,

30:12

you can be really alone. But

30:15

it is all part of this changes

30:18

going on for teenagers as

30:20

they're kind of exploring the balance

30:22

between being independent and being

30:25

part of a team. And that's not just with their parents. I

30:27

think their friendships are also being put

30:29

to the test to see where the boundaries

30:32

of friendship can go and can they

30:34

stretch as far as incorporating

30:36

one of you getting a partner. And we

30:39

see that faltering, we see how

30:41

much that affects Eric. And in fact, this

30:44

is the only time in the whole show when he just thinks, okay,

30:47

well, I'm just

30:47

going to wear beige. And

30:50

he has an episode as a way he's wearing beige. And

30:52

it's just, it's heartbreaking because it kind

30:54

of, it feels like all the spirit,

30:57

all the fight has gone out of him.

30:58

His face, his body language is just completely different.

31:01

He looks like a different person. Yeah, I mean, he even tries doing

31:03

what his parents want him to do and go to

31:05

church and be a good little Christian boy. And

31:08

it's just not him. And

31:11

luckily for all of us, especially

31:13

Eric, he becomes the Eric that we know

31:15

and love and he can't live a lie.

31:18

He does put it back on. But

31:20

yeah, I think he and Otis are hugely important and

31:23

they do share things together. And

31:26

Adam, again, he's the one that's isolated. He's

31:29

got no friends. He's got no one to talk to. And

31:31

it's why he has to take it, why he becomes a bully, another

31:33

reason why he becomes

31:34

a bully. There's a much longer route

31:36

to that understanding of self

31:39

if you remain isolated, do you

31:41

think? Yeah, I think so because

31:43

it is in the to and fro and the testing of, is

31:46

it okay to do this? Is it not okay to

31:48

do this? How much can I be me? How much can I let you

31:50

be you? That's where they sort of learn. Someone

31:53

you trust asking you a difficult question

31:56

or a challenging question is powerful, right? Yeah,

31:59

and they fall out.

31:59

Which of course friends do

32:02

but I've said before in other episodes. It's not

32:04

the falling out Everybody falls out at some point

32:07

if they've got a really authentic relationship at

32:09

some point You're gonna have to say this is not

32:12

okay And the other person may or may not

32:14

be able to take that and then if

32:16

you can get beyond that It's going to be stronger

32:19

as a result of having had the the

32:21

breakup was if you never test it

32:24

It's always a little bit like oh Can't

32:26

I say this but if you've put it to the test

32:28

and you've been able to say

32:29

yeah I was a dick or you were a dick But

32:32

actually the friendship is worth

32:34

worth more than than that all the

32:36

ruptures all the repairs to the rupture

32:39

Make it stronger and stronger and stronger

32:41

Well, that is a beautiful thing. It's

32:43

just so nice to hear in it. So

32:46

I want to dig into a little bit to

32:49

Otis being a therapist like

32:51

we got this junior therapist to

32:53

look into here You know you can be

32:55

as judgmental as you want You

32:58

know, we've not seen the likes of Otis

33:00

since doogie how's at MD, you know,

33:03

so but we we've looked at fictional

33:05

therapists proper therapist before dr Melfi,

33:07

of course in Sopranos We

33:10

had the therapist and I may destroy you and flee

33:12

bag There's even a character in

33:14

friends. There's George's therapist in Seinfeld

33:19

But let's hear a 16 year old therapist

33:21

in sex therapist specifically

33:24

in full flow

33:25

Tell him if you tell him about it. I don't know why

33:27

we're doing this It's not like some advice

33:30

from a 16 year old straight dudes gonna magically

33:32

fix us Stupid.

33:34

Yeah. Well, I mean you're right Ruthie

33:37

I'm not particularly well-versed in the

33:39

intricacies of lesbian sexual relations But

33:41

I think if I can learn a

33:43

bit more about your emotional relationship to one another

33:46

I might be able to get closer to the roots of

33:48

the problem.

33:48

We don't have a problem with our relationship

33:52

We're in love and it's great. We're

33:54

just Inexperienced

33:56

this is my first lesbian relationship.

33:59

Me too First, I mean, lesbian

34:01

sex therapy session. So have you got

34:04

any ideas, Kinsey? Because I'd like to have

34:06

an orgasm sometime this century. Yeah,

34:08

leave it with me. I'll do some research and

34:11

see what I can come up with. Yeah, brilliant. Thanks.

34:14

Thank you.

34:15

Mm. So Otis,

34:17

you know, he's not afraid of showing

34:20

that he doesn't know it all. But

34:22

he is very calm in difficult

34:25

situations and conversations like that. You know,

34:28

from your point of view, how useful

34:30

or effective is Otis, really?

34:33

I think he's doing really well, actually. I

34:35

think he is holding that position,

34:38

which is a therapist you have to do, which is to

34:40

be really

34:42

interested and empathic and attuned,

34:45

but without actually getting involved. He can't

34:47

tell them what to do. But what

34:49

he can do is be that observer that has the perspective,

34:53

that is not in there, in

34:55

the relationship with all the kind of like the swirling

34:57

emotions that are going on. He can look at it from

34:59

outside and say, I don't think this is

35:01

about the sex. I think it's about your relationship

35:03

and your communication. And they're

35:05

saying, no, no, no, no, it's not. I mean, it turns out that

35:08

he's absolutely right. Yeah, it

35:11

is all about their relationship

35:12

and their communication and the sex. He

35:14

sees Ruthie, doesn't he, around behind a bush,

35:16

kissing someone? Yeah, because she wants her first relationship to be with

35:18

her best friend. But

35:23

of course, it's her best friend and

35:25

she can't summon up sexual attraction

35:27

for her, whereas she can for someone else.

35:30

But she doesn't want to

35:32

admit that. And he says right

35:34

from the word go, they challenge him

35:36

and say, well, what can you know about a lesbian relationship?

35:39

And he's like, I don't know anything. But

35:41

because I'm not in the midst, I

35:44

can see from the outside

35:46

what is, I can get a clearer picture.

35:49

And in a way, that's what a therapist is trying

35:51

to encourage a client to do, is to develop

35:54

what we call an observing ego within

35:56

themselves. So even when the therapist or

35:58

the friend or whoever is not in the midst of it, not there to say,

36:00

actually, can you see what you're doing here? You've

36:03

developed a part of you that can stand back

36:06

and say, oh, I can see that there's

36:08

a part of me that is feeling really

36:11

unsure or is feeling really angry

36:13

or is feeling whatever I'm feeling. But there's another

36:16

part of me that can say, yeah, you're not your

36:18

anger. You're not your sadness. There's a part

36:20

of you feeling that. And there's also a part of you

36:22

that is able to watch from the outside

36:25

and say, yeah, you're sad because it's a sad

36:27

situation. It doesn't mean you are a sad person.

36:29

Does that make sense?

36:30

Absolutely. I was just listening to you and you

36:35

see that understanding, that level of maturity

36:37

in him,

36:38

as soon as Rufy says, no, what

36:41

does she say? We're in love and it's all perfect. And

36:43

he's just like, he doesn't buy that for a second,

36:46

but he doesn't know them. And like you say, he's got no experience

36:49

in lesbian relationships or anything like that.

36:51

But he's smart enough to clock

36:54

body language, tone of voice. And

36:57

that something is wrong that

37:00

needs his support. He's good at

37:02

that. And can we say these are

37:06

good things he's got from his slightly messed

37:08

up

37:08

parents or not?

37:10

Well, possibly. He's obviously well

37:13

versed in the lingo and he's had

37:15

his mum and possibly his dad sort of explain

37:18

a lot of stuff to him. And

37:20

he's very good at explaining in turn.

37:22

So yes, he probably has picked up some stuff from them,

37:24

but I think also temperamentally, he

37:26

is naturally an observer

37:29

as we saw, you know, it got him in trouble because he observed

37:31

his dad having

37:34

sex with a client. So I think it's

37:36

always, there's never any one thing. I think a combination

37:39

of his temperament,

37:40

his background, the fact

37:42

that his parents have very

37:45

openly talked about therapy things.

37:47

And the fact that he doesn't have a relationship

37:50

of his own, the fact that he is scared

37:52

of his own getting in there

37:54

with with with Maeve or anybody.

37:56

That doesn't

37:57

affect his confidence though

37:59

when he's. in the room with his clients.

38:02

No, because it's very different. He's there as a therapist.

38:05

He's not there as him. And again, it's

38:07

that those parts, there's the part of him that

38:09

is in love with Maeve and too scared to

38:12

tell her. And there's a part of him that is like

38:14

quite a mature therapist itself. And

38:16

he can be both those things. They seem

38:18

contradictory, but they coexist in the same person.

38:21

But we all have massively contradictory

38:23

bits in us.

38:24

Maeve explicitly says to him,

38:26

doesn't she? Don't tell anyone that

38:28

you're a virgin. Don't mention him.

38:30

In her head, that

38:32

makes him way less... Have

38:35

no authority almost. Have no authority

38:39

in sex advice and sex therapy.

38:41

It just sort of bolsters your point. I was

38:43

just reminded as you were saying.

38:45

Yeah, because otherwise

38:47

as a therapist, if somebody came to me that

38:49

had anxiety and I could say, well, I've never

38:52

had anxiety. I can't work with you. I'd

38:54

only ever be seeing sort of like

38:56

depressed grievers. If I was only going to see

38:58

people that I had some personal experience

39:00

of. So you're always

39:03

going to be seeing people that come to you and say, oh, I've got an

39:05

addiction or I've got this, that or the other.

39:07

I don't have to personally have known what it's

39:09

like to be an addict in order to work

39:12

with them. But I

39:14

will have known what it is to suffer

39:16

because we all have. I mean, there

39:18

is a sort of a theory of the wounded

39:21

healer that the best therapists, the best

39:23

healers are people that have their own wounds because they know

39:25

what that's like to be

39:27

in pain. It doesn't have to have been the same pain.

39:30

We don't have to have had the same sort of

39:33

tragedies or difficulties or struggles, but

39:36

I understand what it is to struggle. I understand

39:38

what it is to feel out

39:40

of control or whatever the

39:42

thing is, even if it's

39:44

not in the exact same way.

39:45

Yeah, have you ever prescribed

39:48

a wank? Do

39:51

you know what? I don't think I have.

39:55

I don't think I

39:57

have. As

40:01

ever, full of insight, Sash.

40:03

And just feeling the

40:05

massive amount of holes that there are in my

40:07

knowledge of all of this stuff. I genuinely,

40:10

like 20 plus episodes in to

40:12

Shrink the Box, I feel like a little

40:14

bit smarter.

40:15

I'm not gonna lie. Just from sitting

40:18

opposite you and going, wait a minute, what?

40:20

If you ever hear that awkward pause when you finish talking,

40:22

where I don't say anything, it's not because

40:25

you've lost track of what's going

40:27

on, or it's all gone to shit. It's because I'm going, fuck,

40:30

wow, damn, that's true.

40:33

And then I think, okay, right, let's

40:35

get back to it. Yeah, well, it's

40:38

why being a therapist is such a sort of endlessly fascinating

40:41

job. But I think also, we

40:43

always say to people, write

40:45

in with your suggestions for new characters. But also,

40:47

you know, if they've got, if you've got

40:49

questions about what the

40:52

process of therapy, I don't mean your own

40:54

personal therapy, but the process

40:56

of therapy and what is actually going on, because it can seem

40:58

like this sort of like mystical, weird

41:01

thing where nobody really knows

41:03

what goes on. So yeah, people should definitely

41:05

ask us if we've got things that we can elucidate.

41:08

And now we've got so many mental health professionals

41:11

listening to us as well. I think they could

41:13

do their suggestions in a whole different way. So

41:15

they could look, they could write in and go like,

41:18

I want to dig deeper into transference. Here's

41:20

a great character for that. Yeah.

41:23

Yeah, we'll see. We'll see what happens as

41:26

we go forward, as we go forth on this

41:28

journey, this box shrinking journey.

41:31

And thank you to everyone who's on the train with

41:34

us, including

41:35

Charlie, who's written into

41:37

the show at shrink the box at sonymusic.com

41:41

and said, dudes, just call us

41:43

dudes. Glorious, glorious show.

41:45

Love it. Want to hear your thoughts on dark.

41:48

It's in German, but there's some serious meat

41:50

to it.

41:51

Ulrich deserves some thought. So do

41:54

many of the characters. Keep up the good work, Charlie.

41:57

I've heard about dark only

41:59

because I was...

41:59

I was working with someone who was going on to

42:02

the job as it was about to be

42:04

filmed and they were going to Germany and they're really nervous about

42:06

it because it is all in German and they were English.

42:09

But that's all I know so I will dig into

42:11

that.

42:11

I've never heard of it. It sounds intriguing.

42:14

I like the brevity of Charlie's email

42:16

as well. It's just like get in, say what

42:18

I want to say, get out

42:19

of here. I didn't even have time to say Ben and Sasha, just

42:21

dudes. Good show,

42:23

love it. Dark, check it out, keep

42:26

it up, Charlie. Brilliant.

42:27

Concise and

42:30

to the point. Thanks, Charlie. Good work, Charles.

42:33

So do follow us if you don't already on

42:35

Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, Spotify,

42:38

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42:40

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42:45

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42:47

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to Extra Takes. You get the ad free episodes

42:54

of Kerr Mode and Mayo's Take as well as all their

42:56

bonus bits. And you can have a

42:58

free trial. Check it out. Give it a go.

43:01

Just click try free at the top of the

43:03

shrink the box page on Apple

43:05

Podcasts or you can visit extra takes.com

43:08

if you prefer. Thanks to our production team.

43:11

Production management is Lily Hambly. System

43:13

producer is Marnie Woodmead. Social media

43:15

is Jonathan Imieri. Studio engineer

43:17

is Matthias Torres-Soleil and

43:20

mix engineer is John Scott. The

43:22

producer for this episode is Michael Dale and

43:24

the senior producer is Selena Reem. Exec

43:27

producer, Simon Paul. Shrink

43:29

the Box is a Sony Music Entertainment

43:31

production. Now, we're

43:33

not gonna have a part three of Sex Education just

43:36

yet. Maybe some other time. Although we almost

43:38

could. We almost could to be honest. So many great characters. I

43:40

think all the wire fans and soprano fans

43:42

will probably get really upset with us. They're going

43:45

back for more. So, Sasha,

43:47

who have we got for the last guest

43:49

of season one of Shrink the Box?

43:51

Can't believe we're at the last

43:53

guest. We made it. Yeah. Well, many

43:56

of you asked for this character. You asked and we

43:58

listened and the much

43:59

anticipated season two has

44:02

just dropped on Disney+. Ooh. Let's

44:05

take a listen. Don't wipe your hands

44:07

on your apron, Chef. Jeff.

44:09

I refer to everybody as chef because it's a

44:11

sign of respect. You could throw down, huh? So

44:14

how you going to pass the family test? Delicious or impressive?

44:17

Delicious is impressive. All right.

44:18

Yo, family's up. I just never have

44:21

platanos with like grass on it. I'm

44:24

coming home. We want to change this restaurant, right?

44:26

I'm coming home. We have to change the chemistry.

44:29

It's Chicago. Why

44:30

are you always like watching me? Because it's just sort

44:33

of my job. We're in a chili flakes because

44:35

it organizes it's more confusing. Right there. They

44:37

both chili flakes.

44:40

This is a delicate ecosystem and it's held

44:43

together by a shared history and

44:45

love. I

44:47

have every intention of turning this into a respectable

44:50

place of business. Eventually.

44:55

Oh, man, it's Kami. It's Kami

44:58

from the Bay. I actually thought his name was Jeff

45:00

for ages when I was watching this series.

45:02

What? Why? Oh, Chef? Because they were like,

45:04

yes, Jeff. Yes, Jeff. And then

45:06

I was like, why did they keep calling everybody Jeff? I

45:09

was like, oh my God, I'm such a fucking idiot.

45:11

They're saying yes, Chef. But yeah,

45:13

if you don't know,

45:15

Kami is this young award-winning chef

45:17

who's come back to his hometown in Chicago to

45:20

run this kind of slightly decrepit family

45:23

sandwich shop that was left to him after

45:25

his brother Mikey's suicide. It's a great watch.

45:28

Do you enjoy it, Shash?

45:28

I did. I found it quite stressful.

45:30

I found the whole, yeah, that

45:33

whole kind of everything. It's hot. It

45:35

was too close. Yeah, and just

45:37

shouting. So I found it a very

45:40

tense watch, but obviously that is

45:42

what they're trying to depict. And

45:45

I think it is, the performances

45:48

are great. The script's very

45:50

spare. And I think it's really about

45:52

the grief over Mikey's death. And

45:56

I think some of that tension represents

45:58

what grief

45:58

can feel like.

45:59

But also it's a great study

46:02

in group dynamics, how

46:04

a new leader has to find a new equilibrium,

46:07

just as that family has to find a new equilibrium

46:09

without Mikey there as

46:12

well. And it's also about managing

46:14

expectations. I mean, there's so much in it, really.

46:17

And yeah, so season two is only just about to come out.

46:19

So we're going to be looking at season one. It's on Disney+. You

46:22

can go to justwatch.com for other

46:25

watching options.

46:26

All right. Thank you, Jeff.

46:29

I'll see you next week. See you.

46:31

Ta-ta. Time

46:39

now for the sex education credits, as promised

46:42

for series one created by Laurie Nunn at

46:44

the top when Otis gets an erection in the swimming

46:47

pool and when he's giving advice to the

46:49

lesbian couple. They're both from episode four

46:51

with Asa Butterfield as Otis, Shuti

46:54

Gatwa as Eric, Lily Newmark as

46:56

Ruthie and Alice Hewkin as

46:58

Tanya, written by Laurie Nunn and

47:01

Laura Neal, directed by Ben Taylor. And

47:03

when Eric's dad asks him if he really wants to

47:05

go to the ball dressed like that, it's episode

47:07

seven starring Diobia Opare as

47:09

Mr. Effiong. Sex Education

47:11

was made by Eleven and distributed by Netflix.

47:14

Thanks for listening and we'll see you

47:15

next week.