0:00

Hi Michelle. Shepherd host of

0:02

uncover sharmini

0:03

from CBC podcast in 1999

0:05

fifteen-year-old sharmini. Anandavel the [unk]

0:08

disappeared on her way to a job that

0:10

police believed in the existence for

0:12

months later, her remains were found in

0:14

a Ravine. I revisit the case that

0:16

has stayed with me for over 20 years, ever

0:19

since I first covered it as a cub crime,

0:21

reporter for the Toronto Star you

0:23

can find, uncover, sharmini on

0:25

CBC listen or on your favorite

0:27

podcast app.

0:30

this is a cbc podcast

0:35

the following episode contains mature

0:37

subject matter please take

0:39

care

0:42

i doubt he my uncle

0:44

ever watching away from us are you

0:48

right yeah that people were

0:50

trying to bully him outta doing

0:52

his job i'm

0:54

sure thing if terrorists any

0:56

way for him to continue providing

0:58

abortions he would continue

1:01

doing probably the match

1:03

that mean just

1:05

show on

1:07

talking to amanda rob without her uncle

1:09

doctor part slap ian had

1:11

bart not than killed he might have returned

1:14

to work though the canadian doctors

1:16

were shot and injured all struggles

1:18

with that because of their injuries it's

1:21

murder left abortion providers everywhere

1:23

afraid for their safety meanwhile

1:25

the antiabortion movement began to change

1:27

their strategies

1:30

wang out the anti abortion atlanta

1:33

people that are strategic

1:35

, thinking about waste and legal

1:38

access to the procedure about

1:40

doing it doing the states i'm

1:44

different eight the

1:47

laws are also faster easier

1:50

and cheaper to change then federal

1:52

laws and increasingly read

1:54

republican states are more likely

1:56

these days to move forward anti abortion

1:59

legislation there

2:01

is a spot and less country

2:03

i mean huge one that

2:06

stretches from north dakota

2:08

our lord said the bottom of tax

2:11

from the south shoe

2:14

kansas city missouri

2:16

and the patch and indiana

2:18

images your get

2:21

an abortion

2:28

right now because you can't get one after

2:31

six weeks i'm

2:33

in mississippi they outlawed

2:35

at a fifteen weeks the facts before

2:37

the supreme court

2:41

the find out what exactly is

2:43

going on the us how we get

2:45

from violence and shootings twenty

2:47

years ago to looming supreme

2:49

court decisions i decide

2:51

to drive so

2:55

maybe understanding where the movement

2:57

is today will help my investigation

3:00

into it's past and were

3:02

at my it

3:08

i'm david written and this is someone know something

3:10

season seven episode six

3:13

mississippi

3:19

heading into mississippi sir

3:21

meridian the ,

3:24

february twenty february fourteen

3:26

degrees

3:29

like i am bound to this

3:31

place on earth

3:35

i'm here to visit the , remaining

3:37

abortion clinic and mistake

3:43

it's about nineteen hour drive from toronto

3:45

the jackson mississippi once

3:47

you enter the state traffic gets

3:49

notably quieter and at

3:51

night when night arrive i'd note

3:53

again to myself that the highways

3:56

are some of the most lightless but i've experienced

3:58

in the us the stars

4:00

seem to shine brighter for it six

4:04

hours sleep and i'm up the next

4:06

morning and head to what is known

4:08

here as the penthouse

4:15

pulling into the clinic stucco

4:19

with white stripes

4:23

prominent no trespassing signs around

4:26

, building black plastic

4:29

the lights

4:32

cameras

4:41

go and meet with sand and brewer is

4:44

the director

4:48

hello

4:49

i'm , share in here cafe

4:55

hi hey thanks for doing this you must

4:57

seen become in i've

5:01

, after hours and shen and standing

5:03

in now empty waiting area of the small clinic

5:06

next to the reception desk she's

5:08

wearing she's print blouse with silver

5:10

dragonfly pendant hanging from her neck

5:13

he waves me over and i follow her into a

5:15

nearby office the room is

5:17

covered and bright colors and art but

5:19

what dominates as the enormous flatscreen

5:22

that hangs on the wall beside desk on

5:24

it static views sent from eleven

5:27

security cameras mounted around the building

5:29

inside and out as

5:32

we talk shannon can't keep

5:34

her eyes off the monitor

5:36

yeah don't know how to not watch it with

5:38

his that enables me to know

5:40

what's going on at our time

5:43

before i get into anything else and want

5:45

understand what happens at the clinic level

5:48

how does the process work for patients

5:51

normally their schedule an appointment and

5:53

the innate there's to visit process from because

5:55

miss him has twenty four hour waiting period

5:57

when you first visit and your second

6:00

the they cover the first visit

6:02

they have have an ultrasound their let's

6:04

see how far along they are and

6:07

they have to get the lab work done and there's

6:09

a counseling session with the doctor

6:12

and then they do one on one session with doctor

6:16

we're at first with they the side of the them get

6:18

the medication abortion or the surgical abortion

6:21

on second visit if you're coming

6:23

back to get appeal was ,

6:25

as medication abortion they merely

6:27

come here for

6:29

the adapter to hand them appeal

6:32

and li and if they're gonna have

6:35

a surgical procedure they commit average

6:37

twenty four hours and the actual procedure

6:39

takes about five

6:41

to seven eight minutes

6:43

or ruin and then recovery are young

6:45

dinner recovery about thirty minutes while

6:47

they monitor their blood pressure

6:49

they're bleeding district sure thing stable

6:52

and then they are released

6:54

to the home

6:57

in canada the abortion pill or

6:59

the surgical options are paid through health

7:01

care in the us the cost

7:03

for either option is about the same and first

7:06

trimester about six hundred us

7:08

dollars the first trimester

7:10

as when most abortions in the us happen

7:12

about ninety percent in the first thirteen

7:15

weeks of pregnancy shannon

7:17

says they have five or six doctors who

7:19

rotate at or clinics but it's

7:21

or next statement that still after

7:24

everything i've heard about violence of past

7:26

catches me off guard none

7:30

were adapted live here they

7:32

coming from to say what

7:34

op is flying

7:35

because the protesters stop the doctors

7:37

harassed them no local doctors

7:40

will work here

7:42

where did come from

7:44

how far away they will face know

7:47

that florida yet at lan

7:49

i'd add there were from boston

7:52

we've had local doctors who wanted

7:54

to hear before stay as soon as this

7:57

protesters tanner who they are they

8:00

they go to

8:01

the how does their neighborhoods the hospitals

8:04

or anywhere else they work and

8:06

they start call in their offices

8:08

or their employers and the

8:11

quit pamphlets in the neighbor's

8:13

mailbox is it's do you know you live

8:15

next door to says insists they

8:17

called the appearance houses in

8:20

the make a fine own the arms and they just

8:22

arrested conflict the prom with adapters

8:24

is like i want to do this

8:27

vaccine is too much for my family

8:31

okay and same these people that can range

8:33

the word god answered

8:36

sin all of this out of their mouths

8:38

that can do the

8:41

to the degree that these people can do

8:45

the similarities to the antiabortion movement

8:47

of the nineties as i've been investigating

8:49

are obvious and don't stop

8:52

there

8:53

oh yeah different things that all here arm

8:56

in , with people cardinals at property are

8:58

people time for have the patience

9:00

for terminals that proper the block in the and stresses

9:03

the guinness out cases with

9:05

the basis of stuff like that

9:08

has the frequency of those kinds

9:10

things increase or decrease

9:13

the didn't last year actually think read quite bit

9:15

actually the protesters

9:18

have gotten little bit more aggressive

9:21

their own more

9:23

random more rowdy

9:27

what used to be these

9:30

rowdy people are approaching

9:32

cars and standing in a muslim streets

9:34

and they have amplifiers their

9:37

these big speaker systems out

9:39

there they stand on

9:41

ladders

9:45

don't scream you know your whore you going

9:47

to hell years isabel you

9:50

just whatever they

9:52

think will get your attention or would make

9:54

you may it

10:02

i think

10:03

the people feel like they've lost

10:05

control over soft and they

10:08

want to be able to control

10:10

often again they're not

10:12

fighting for women they're not fighting for

10:14

babies they're not fighting for any of that

10:18

the please do they me

10:21

there's nothing is being done about it

10:23

on the local level

10:26

canada jackson police can take up

10:28

to an hour to arise as they come

10:30

at all or do more than a drive

10:33

and she says there are no arrests being

10:35

made

10:37

you always have a sense of philly

10:39

endangered especially

10:41

, you're watson the

10:43

ways that is being

10:45

handled that city

10:47

officials and stuff that's what makes you feel endangered

10:50

when you lose faith in

10:53

the judicial system and stuff that

10:55

you don't have this for tix and that

10:57

is supposed to have

11:00

what caused the increase in these and altercations

11:03

that you talked with

11:04

i'm a big because they feel

11:06

like they're winning

11:09

when comes to the abortion

11:11

fi i think they have gained

11:14

lot of ground right now and

11:17

you know that has given them given them those

11:20

that they need

11:22

then and says the state courts are

11:24

also working against the normal operation

11:26

the clinic the clinic itself

11:28

is currently at the center of the reproductive

11:31

legal battle in supreme court case

11:33

dobbs first as jackson women's health organization

11:36

the case picked up tracks and two thousand two thousand

11:39

and has been called the most consequential

11:41

abortion rights case in generations

11:45

we've been having to fight ever says

11:47

has been here we've been in and out of

11:49

course a million times because

11:52

of this particular states completely

11:54

have been away counseling seven awakes athletes

11:56

thumbnail with these bogus travelers

12:00

there are specifically designed to literally

12:02

trap abortion clinics into violations

12:05

so that ultimately they can be shut down structural

12:08

malicious warping of the legal system

12:10

to circumvent roe versus wade

12:13

shannon says they've faced last stipulating

12:15

the size a clinics doors difficult

12:18

requirements for transfer agreements

12:20

with hospitals and more jennifer

12:23

she complies with all these regulations

12:25

and that are clinic is now busier than

12:27

ever but only busier because

12:29

of a controversial new law in

12:31

texas that bans abortion

12:34

past the six week mark

12:37

how much you would increase would you say since that texas

12:40

law

12:41

that thirty thirty to forty

12:43

percent while and so he

12:45

can only imagine the numbers

12:48

the other like you tell him people might that

12:51

is one state

12:54

we're seeing places now only from texas

12:56

we're seeing cases from louisiana oklahoma

12:59

because they're bad built so

13:02

amazing net times twenty states

13:06

the backup is caused by patients who

13:08

are beyond the six week window in texas

13:10

and who are forced out of state

13:13

to places like shannon's mississippi clinic

13:15

so texas gets around roe v wade

13:17

and it's law may ultimately

13:19

undermine at for good i

13:22

can and how she thinks the supreme court

13:24

ruling on roby ways is going to go

13:28

the february the

13:31

will forever and

13:34

and anxiety is justifiable

13:36

an unprecedented league the us

13:38

supreme court's initial draft opinion

13:40

on the case originally obtained

13:42

by politico indicates that

13:44

majority of judges may and tend

13:47

to vote to overturn roe versus

13:49

wade justice alito

13:51

reading for the majority in the leaked draft

13:54

states row was egregiously

13:56

wrong from the start it's reasoning

13:58

was exceptionally week and the decision

14:01

has had damaging consequences but

14:04

supreme court draft undergo many revisions

14:06

opinions change and no decision

14:08

has known or will be official until

14:11

the final decision as delivered

14:14

you know you hope for the bears and prepare for the worse

14:17

as hell how to his

14:19

if you could talk to those people and

14:22

haven't listened to bow to say

14:24

to them the people to people

14:26

center there well

14:29

as say to those people

14:33

i'll even know anymore i used

14:36

come over different days i'll say to them out

14:38

even knowing more i'll even

14:40

know that i would even waste my time at

14:43

, have you think you can say something are

14:45

you know you can say something this logical

14:48

that would tell her spark something in

14:50

them but it's like donny

14:52

with their with don't feel smart don't feel him

14:55

the when

14:58

they they

15:04

and at the point where she feels that engagement

15:07

with the protesters is meaningless in

15:09

the face of aggression from antiabortion protesters

15:12

and legal assaults from the state

15:14

who could blame her his

15:16

dialogue even possible

15:18

anymore

15:21

entering the greenwood cemetery which is opposite

15:23

the supreme court building and jackson

15:27

and , into teams and taylor helped

15:29

draft draft gestational

15:31

age act which act currently

15:34

before the supreme court's the usa

15:37

and that's the act that bands

15:39

abortion after fifteen weeks

15:43

and

15:44

i think the intent of drafting legislation

15:47

can only be to assist

15:49

in the toppling of roe v wade find

15:52

out from a guy i drafted

16:04

hi i'm michelle shepherd host of and

16:06

the

16:07

ceremony from cbc podcast in

16:09

nineteen ninety nine sixteen year old

16:11

ceremony and the about disappeared on

16:13

her way to job that police believed

16:15

in next for months later her

16:17

remains were found in wooded ravine i

16:20

remember the case that stayed with me for

16:22

over twenty years the recent the first

16:24

covered the crime reporter for

16:26

the toronto star you can find uncover

16:29

sure many on cbc listen or

16:31

on your favorite podcast

16:38

i manage a mr taylor and i am

16:40

president of the center for political

16:43

when you

16:45

jamison in a blue suit and shirts

16:47

with pinkie pie and crisply folded

16:49

silk pocket square the

16:51

gestational age act he helped draft

16:54

that came into force as mississippi law

16:56

in two thousand and eighteen seems

16:58

cold and and flexible by comparison

17:02

i just wanted to know about the legislation

17:04

gestational age acts from your perspective

17:07

what it means to do like with the intention

17:09

of it was were came from so

17:12

, gestational age act to

17:14

begin with voters mississippi are very

17:17

for life both republicans and democrats

17:20

sir are times comes down to just question

17:22

and strategy and what way are we

17:24

going to be for life zoc

17:26

going to be through our policy differences

17:29

supports women and children maybe

17:31

by for instance providing healthcare

17:34

coverage for pregnant mothers

17:36

things like that and the other way i was

17:38

lawmakers mississippi or pro life life

17:41

through challenging some of the presumptions

17:43

that underlie roe v wade

17:46

and so far what that suggests is

17:48

that this whole abortion debate is

17:50

really about competing rights so

17:52

it's about the so it's of the unborn

17:55

child and rights of

17:57

the mother so in row

17:59

we have that competition

18:01

was very much tilted toward the mother the

18:05

laws that allow access to abortion

18:08

and the us currently prohibit

18:10

the banning of abortion before

18:12

viability that means

18:14

a person should be allowed to have an abortion

18:16

that any time before fetus might

18:18

survive on it's own outside

18:20

the womb that moment curse

18:23

somewhere around twenty to twenty a week

18:25

mark of a pregnancy the window

18:27

of timing is hotly debated and

18:29

mississippi and other states like texas

18:32

have created their own definition

18:34

of what viability means and

18:36

under what circumstances that it means

18:40

though by changing the timeframe state

18:42

legislation writers like jamison in

18:44

mississippi open the door to

18:46

us supreme court ruling on the federal

18:48

law that at least in the turbulent

18:51

time being underpins all

18:53

of it roe versus wade oh

18:56

what's mississippi's definition of

18:58

viability

19:00

someone like in particular as the fifteen week

19:02

law what's really bends or driving

19:04

to debate here in mississippi but also

19:06

think around the country is the science

19:09

and so what that science is showing the three

19:11

d and forty ultrasounds is

19:14

the person heard of that unborn

19:16

child as one

19:19

of the supreme court justices said

19:21

but seems like this child has the form

19:23

of a human person says you know that's

19:25

nuts with the ultrasounds are

19:27

showing that this lox

19:29

a lot like person and person

19:31

my fingers bright eyes turn

19:34

your thing child by

19:36

road right and so the the the pro

19:38

choice people say fetus

19:41

right so fry your language is important

19:43

how you're talking about talking to right so have

19:46

been scientifically shown that the fetus

19:49

the

19:49

virus definition of viable really is the

19:51

is the sort of standing around right

19:53

like isn't flouting how do we discuss

19:55

viable jamison

19:58

sites science and

20:00

her meaning viability another

20:02

hotly contested notion

20:05

i think what the mississippi law

20:07

and in case is showing is that

20:09

that whole framework of viability

20:11

is arbitrary sciences

20:13

, in a direction where that

20:15

viability line is being pushed further

20:17

and further wrath that's not

20:19

even what the mississippi law does

20:22

with a mississippi law does mississippi

20:24

catches up to the international standard

20:26

my horse

20:28

this alignment with the international

20:30

standard is a common argument utilized

20:33

in the us political sphere and

20:35

on paper it seems clear many

20:37

countries where abortion is available by

20:39

request have a cut off of

20:41

about fifteen weeks earlier the

20:44

exceptions matter and access

20:46

matter abortion and canada

20:48

is legal at all stages and

20:50

treated like any medical procedure though

20:53

subject to availability across canadian

20:55

regions in other countries

20:57

such as ireland abortions can be performed

20:59

up the twelfth week of pregnancy

21:02

but can happen later of the patient's life is

21:04

at risk in saudi arabia

21:06

abortion is only permitted to protect the life

21:08

and mental health of the patients and

21:11

and stark contrast to some recent

21:14

us state legislation other

21:16

countries like india finland and zambia

21:19

have exceptions based on socio

21:21

economic grounds the

21:24

how do you see i mean this legislations

21:26

before the supreme court if

21:29

it results in the toppling of

21:31

roe v wade will

21:34

read states basically

21:36

prohibit abortions like will abortions be possible

21:38

in red states after amazon how you see

21:40

it going is that where have you wanted go well

21:43

those are two different questions would questions

21:45

expect the court do is to

21:47

uphold mississippi's last

21:50

say yes states can regulate

21:52

abortions after the first trimester

21:55

now there's and regulate it meaning to

21:57

meeting laminate yeah meeting meeting limit abortion

22:00

i'm the mississippi law for instance does not

22:02

allow abortion cases of rape

22:04

or incest it only last abortion for

22:06

the life of the mother so you'll see

22:08

kind of gamut but i think the court

22:10

is going to give green light say that

22:13

states can prohibit

22:15

and and regulate different ways

22:17

abortions after that

22:19

first trimester

22:23

the

22:23

mississippi law before the us supreme

22:25

court does not include exceptions

22:27

for rape or incest after fifteen weeks

22:30

these exceptions were often commonplace

22:33

in the us but recent abortion

22:35

bans are getting stricter by excluding

22:37

these exceptions

22:40

also what'll happen is we're going to have a

22:42

raging debate on abortion in every

22:44

state some states will say yes

22:46

abortion is illegal now in our state

22:49

know states may well have exceptions

22:51

for rape incest the my for the

22:53

mother

22:55

but as jamison explains some

22:57

states like mississippi have

23:00

what are called trigger laws in place that

23:02

will come into play automatically in the event

23:04

that roe versus wade is actually

23:06

overturned

23:08

what a trigger law is is

23:10

that if the supreme court should

23:12

ever overturn roe v wade

23:14

then mississippi automatically

23:17

well prohibit abortion the

23:20

did you have other states that will do the same thing

23:24

currently over a dozen states have

23:26

trigger laws that would ban all

23:28

or nearly all abortions if row

23:30

was overturned

23:32

the talk about the the women's health who aren't

23:34

able to get an abortion in case

23:36

say in mississippi where fewer women are

23:39

have access to abortion does that

23:41

not lead to another kind of health crisis

23:43

in their lives like it and how you policy

23:46

wise seed dealing with that

23:48

yeah i think it's very important to look

23:50

at what's , best

23:52

for women in this case and kind

23:54

of looking at policies that going to

23:57

help women especially women that are

23:59

and this pregnancy

24:03

jamison site state health insurance

24:05

and welfare programs like food stamps

24:07

as ways that those who cannot get an abortion

24:10

might somehow be assisted according

24:12

to the most recent us federal data

24:15

and analysis by the associated press

24:17

indicated that states with some

24:19

of the nation strictest abortion laws

24:21

are also some of the hardest places

24:23

to haven't raise a healthy child especially

24:27

for the poor

24:29

and so violence that we saw

24:31

in the nineties i see a change

24:33

in in the tactics basically we

24:35

don't see the shootings we don't see as much

24:37

of violence approach

24:40

, yourself i think frankly

24:42

it's been a kind of conversion on part

24:44

of pro lifers so to speak

24:47

that day have recognize that

24:49

they look like hypocrites when they talk about

24:52

personhood and unborn child within fail

24:54

to recognize recognize personhood

24:56

and the humanity the history

24:59

with them i think the pro life movement itself

25:02

has kind had itself has

25:04

experience come to jesus moments

25:07

so to speak for they realize

25:09

that they have to minister to these

25:11

women are facing an unplanned

25:13

pregnancy and edges yelling at these women

25:15

for instance a nice person shooting

25:18

people that that is not gonna further

25:20

their cause

25:24

legislation like jamison has written is

25:26

funded by think tanks and private

25:28

individuals and parties with brought

25:30

interests well apart from abortion access

25:33

interest and votes and getting into

25:35

are keeping power words

25:37

on legislative page can seems

25:39

straightforward but they can hide

25:41

the real world consequences and

25:43

violence of past hasn't gone away as we've

25:46

heard from shannon what

25:48

you're doing thicker will see again jamison

25:51

and i finish our conversation and go

25:53

our separate ways as i walk

25:55

out i noticed the new mississippi flag

25:57

flying above their supreme court until

26:00

very recently the confederate version

26:02

of state flag flew here mississippi

26:04

legislators finally voted for

26:06

it's removal the new flag

26:09

has flag white magnolia flower

26:11

on it

26:18

the driving into birmingham alabama here

26:20

heading over to die and dirt's as a

26:22

, obama obama

26:25

a long a worker

26:27

an advocate in the

26:29

area of abortion for vision and

26:31

has lot of experience in

26:34

the area and and him dealing with

26:36

various antiabortion violence you

26:39

have allowed at your destination your destination left

26:44

i pulled up in front of a two story house

26:46

with an eclectic front yard of

26:48

barely controlled overgrowth and bottle trees

26:53

hay diane

26:56

herself as in sixties in pink

26:58

sweats and white teachers with light

27:01

hair she owns three abortion

27:03

clinics the us including

27:05

the mississippi pink house where pink met shannon

27:08

she has one in georgia one in virginia

27:11

and she used to run clinic here a birmingham

27:14

until it was bombed the

27:16

money and power

27:19

foot of all i

27:21

ask diane to start with the bombing january

27:24

twenty ninth nineteen eighty eight i'm

27:28

in virginia the

27:30

i got a phone call that morning about a

27:33

i guess and the admins

27:37

crying and she said you hear the sirens

27:40

the coming for us said

27:42

, the climate climate

27:45

then she hung up sun turned on turned

27:49

and it was just breaking their

27:52

own anderson

27:54

that he was the officer on duty sanders

27:57

himself auto plant that was

27:59

failure and he bent down

28:01

with his my and

28:04

just blow him apart

28:07

the bomb had been hidden in the plant

28:10

and was detonated remotely

28:13

the he phrased numerous

28:16

, nurse

28:18

was running late she was at the door

28:21

getting rid of it was

28:23

chilling so they

28:25

had been in clinic and

28:27

i felt horrible guilt i

28:30

wasn't there and endorse

28:32

was nearly killed but she was named

28:34

he said during

28:36

surgery sent the woman has

28:38

to a three year nail last

28:40

an hour in our whole body

28:42

was just amazed

28:45

distraught lucky

28:47

she's lucky to be alive but it's

28:50

it ended her career

28:53

the

28:53

bomber turned out to be eric rudolph

28:55

who was aged thirty one at the time before

28:58

, he bombed another abortion clinic

29:01

and lgbtq nightclub in atlanta

29:04

and was also responsible for the bombing of

29:06

nineteen ninety six summer olympics in

29:08

all he killed two and injured

29:10

over one hundred after blowing

29:13

up the birmingham clinic rudolph

29:15

went on the lam

29:17

in fact is calling someone

29:19

saw him giving and carbs and

29:22

like call that an so they had

29:24

his lifeless with i think they screwed

29:26

up and nice political person of interest

29:29

by , time he got home he already

29:31

knew they were looking for so

29:34

he went off as enough for five years he's

29:36

out and course they're help enable when

29:39

we know that he did emma he was the service

29:41

was but we know he had a all

29:44

games cop obviously wasn't the first

29:46

anti abortionists to kill for his cause

29:49

and doctor burnett sloppy and wasn't the

29:51

first doctor to be murdered

29:54

try to kill was david byrne and

29:57

he he was as position and

29:59

numb the only

30:03

he

30:03

had had polio was a child and so he's

30:05

had the metal crutches or

30:08

he walked with cane he'd

30:10

been followed he was work and pensacola

30:12

and he was working and numb my

30:15

daughter and

30:18

with with following him started

30:20

harass

30:22

i know there are good decent people out

30:24

in front of the clinic the truly believe

30:26

that we are reading murder and they believe

30:29

their presence there making

30:31

a difference adam

30:34

him

30:36

you know few on was

30:38

mine she didn't need to be the when

30:42

you happy hours and say

30:44

that want to kill and they'll do whatever it takes

30:46

us we're killing babies that there's some

30:49

similar love with desk

30:53

the

30:53

damage women making decisions killing

30:56

, babies in as killing

30:58

their offspring offspring

31:00

think of lot of it is referred

31:03

to me but i think it's fair

31:05

that though

31:07

me if you're telling me

31:09

that i have continual pregnancy that

31:11

that the this or that fertilized

31:13

egg has more rights some i have for

31:16

me it's like a saw fossil mommy dance

31:19

were just walking uterus oh

31:23

that's

31:23

why this is on for tonight athena

31:25

will it really gets down to the crux of the matter

31:28

it is that it's remembering

31:30

myself how hard

31:33

that i was with sandals pregnant

31:35

armor got that means the end of

31:37

my life and know i

31:40

got married when was nineteen years old

31:43

that pregnant when i was too horny

31:45

years old because i was just stupid

31:48

or maybe know we were both virgins

31:50

it was just stupidity or

31:52

, we should been using contraception

31:55

the whole thing that sets the

31:57

war no clinics and it

31:59

was prayer position in town that did

32:01

them four hundred and twenty five dollars

32:04

that and t i can still see that waiting

32:06

room my husband was with me

32:10

they were people from all over the

32:12

south the

32:14

absolute release thank

32:16

, god husband

32:18

was excited i was pregnant but

32:21

you know hours twenty

32:23

you know years old it was like you

32:25

know i've got things to do

32:28

but i got a safe abortion and that's

32:30

what i went for an ,

32:32

went home and the next day

32:35

there was some woman running on the right

32:37

to life ticket and they were fetuses

32:39

and dead babies all over tv

32:42

and i remember i guess that's

32:44

when i was activated

32:46

the

32:48

soon after the abortion diane began

32:50

working at clinic as a counsellor what

32:54

are some of the concerns that women bring when come into

32:56

the room oh god punishment

32:59

and i think

33:00

many instances women

33:03

then have problems later on could savings

33:06

that's always uppermost

33:08

in our is the smart penalty for

33:12

doing what

33:13

they wanted or needed to do

33:16

instead of

33:17

putting see the first the

33:20

others others would be what

33:23

if i can't get pregnant again that's

33:25

something we always talk about is you know there's

33:27

no there's no guarantees in life

33:30

and that's why you the look at this pregnancy

33:32

and know which you need to do are

33:35

you know which you need to do

33:37

what percentage would you say of women after

33:39

the first visit don't combat negligible

33:43

so what do you make of the claim from anti

33:46

abortionists that the science is showing

33:48

that it's a human being and their that's being killed

33:51

at sixteen weeks you know and

33:53

they have to believe this i think

33:56

the other how this album

33:58

more holsters know proper

34:01

youngest baby boy has

34:03

survived and that one was

34:06

all my team weeks it's

34:08

been the hospital almost year

34:12

the reality as assist their lungs

34:14

are not formed

34:16

completely

34:18

there's no way that it can survive with out

34:21

medical intervention

34:25

for many who are opposed to abortion

34:27

life begins at conception when

34:29

the sperm and eggs first unite but

34:32

that's not what the science i've seen says

34:35

anti abortionists say that heartbeats

34:37

can be detected in pregnancies at six

34:39

weeks but medical experts say

34:41

that's not case that heart

34:43

isn't developed this point and any

34:46

sound heard on the ultrasound prior

34:48

to the hearts development is actually

34:50

noise created by the ultrasound machine

34:52

itself based on electrical

34:54

activity in the see this not from

34:56

functional are functioning heart valves

34:59

moving scientific data also

35:01

shows that the risk of dying in childbirth

35:03

are far greater than the risks

35:05

of dying from an abortion

35:08

for me you come down to two things here

35:10

and that's if got two competing rights

35:12

and for me that woman is a

35:15

real love breathing human

35:17

being and god gave us

35:19

free will to make these decisions

35:21

and now there's now way that fetus

35:23

cancer by with that point

35:27

what they believe he has not since

35:29

is this last

35:32

i am dianne about the changes she has seen

35:34

and how the antiabortion side approaches

35:36

the issue the up

35:38

some memo they're

35:40

just smarter new

35:43

modern knew they were

35:45

gonna do it legislatively and the

35:48

people have worked for this the you

35:51

i mean you have to give him credit they've done

35:53

it patiently

35:57

the smart there's

36:00

oh

36:02

the what's gonna happen with the supreme

36:04

court decision on the fifteen

36:06

week era

36:08

and within ten days the clinical be close

36:11

you think that the clinic's will be closed down for

36:13

good no question no

36:15

question then

36:17

you're talking about losing twenty six twenty

36:19

seven states and those

36:21

that have we'll be able to get

36:24

an abortion is privileged

36:26

you've got money to fly to new york and the

36:28

back home for dinner that

36:31

if black and brown when

36:33

your pool the

36:36

don't be have a child

36:41

the

36:41

states diane foresees will lose

36:43

clinics align with the number of read

36:45

republican states it's unknown

36:47

how many states red or blue may

36:49

move to pass legislation restricting

36:51

access to abortion without

36:54

it diane says that some may even

36:56

turned to more risky methods to end their pregnancies

37:00

women will die because he does that

37:02

they they'll do whatever it takes

37:04

to not be parker

37:09

what you planning to do like what will have

37:11

going to say state and we're going to build

37:14

a clinic and we're going to make

37:16

sure that women in jackson mississippi

37:18

and throughout mississippi have option

37:21

and it's gonna be a nightmare the

37:24

night me women flying

37:27

limit trying to get come up with the funds

37:29

but it's a there's a lot funding group says

37:31

that are that come together lot people who

37:34

feel oh

37:36

they want to make sure those women do have an

37:38

option but it's gonna be

37:40

nightmare of nightmare of women that are

37:42

that don't get their interest in

37:44

as

37:46

the moment don't have periods that a

37:48

regular some women don't

37:50

even think when they miss appear as

37:53

though they're when i think they are and and you

37:55

talk and i'm not getting somewhere thousand

37:58

miles from here are wearing for their been

38:00

like and finding out that the to for

38:03

to be even to be seen their it

38:06

would definitely like and

38:08

a lot of pregnancies contribute

38:10

brightness is no question

38:13

i wonder how access to the abortion

38:15

pills might be affected

38:18

they're the percent of patients use the bill

38:20

for the right definitely it's

38:22

good that say especially if early the plane

38:24

the said

38:25

so do you think the pill will be outlawed as well they

38:27

are gonna try yeah for sure they've

38:29

already put legislation to

38:31

to make enough to know they they're

38:33

trying make it make three day process

38:36

the three day process just makes the

38:38

window of opportunity for using the abortion

38:40

pill that much more difficult and

38:42

accessing the abortion pill itself

38:44

is being made difficult are banned

38:47

in some states already prohibited

38:49

from being used or even mailed in some

38:51

cases

38:53

think women in this country when they start

38:55

trying to do it they're gonna end up jail

38:57

and then judo charged with murder

39:00

a me at this is not

39:03

these , don't play many

39:05

you know what was they were this

39:07

could be far worse than it was for

39:10

well

39:12

trigger laws like the one jamison brought up

39:15

on the books and mississippi will come into play

39:17

a role he weighed fast and

39:19

some of these trigger laws in place and some

39:21

of the states will make abortion

39:23

a crime or

39:26

they never took it off the books so it's still

39:28

murder still pretty

39:31

the new taxes so called heartbeat law

39:33

makes no exceptions for rape or incest

39:36

this texas law also partly

39:38

gets around roe v wade by not

39:40

having police and forced the abortion ban

39:43

instead ordinary citizens are authorized

39:45

sue anyone aiding and abetting and abortion

39:48

after six weeks of pregnancy

39:50

from the doctor who performed it to

39:53

the taxi driver who drove the person

39:55

to the clinic the punishment is ten

39:57

thousand dollars us for each count

40:00

the more you weren't up the doctor

40:03

strangely , people who aided and abetted

40:05

people like times cop and

40:07

are suffering player that he was

40:10

right

40:12

every certainly they could and

40:15

would they do it again today absolutely you

40:18

know and think that the just

40:21

as as same does the did the cat

40:24

same people

40:26

guard right that's it

40:28

is frightening

40:31

media reports note that several

40:33

prominent anti abortionists were present

40:35

at january sixth the tax on

40:37

us capitol one of them

40:40

derek evans was a west virginia lawmaker

40:42

who had just won a twenty twenty state election

40:45

the joined them are breaking into the capitol

40:47

building and was also a well known fixture

40:49

at west virginia's only abortion clinic

40:52

there he would harass patients and staff

40:55

calling them deaths scores and baby

40:57

murderers and filmed himself or his

40:59

tens of thousands of facebook followers

41:03

i think it's important that people understand

41:06

the what rents people will go

41:09

when they believe their right and you're wrong

41:12

many not really what we're looking at night

41:14

on this country because the parallel say

41:16

or

41:18

i am believes that could be more killings of abortion

41:21

providers and we're aware of that

41:23

were attributed to something else like

41:25

robbery like doctor george

41:27

wein patterson in august of nineteen

41:29

ninety three

41:32

one

41:32

person was a sleazy

41:35

i knew him he was some

41:37

worked at the clinic immobile

41:39

he's not gonna guy you'd want to be hanging around

41:42

it was was he was some

41:45

the love porn

41:49

dr

41:50

george patterson was returning to his

41:52

car after allegedly leaving an adult

41:54

theater when he was shot and killed police

41:57

maintain that it was was gone wrong

42:00

yeah he had done abortions for years and

42:02

there was never yeah that's what they always there was

42:05

no the to robbie but

42:07

they never father bomb on a that either

42:09

what you think i may do think that he was it was too

42:12

much of coincidence

42:15

not coincidence because doctor patterson

42:17

own clinics that doctor gun the

42:19

first provider shots worked as

42:22

patterson took over guns duties after

42:24

gun was murdered and five months after

42:26

that patterson to would be shot and

42:28

killed it's something i'd like

42:30

to ask amanda about

42:41

hey can you hear me or hurry

42:46

on my way out of alabama i

42:48

tell amanda about shannon and diane

42:50

and what we talked about amanda

42:52

stops me at part about doctor patterson

42:55

the doctor that diane thanks could be one

42:57

of the first shootings have an abortion provider

42:59

by anti abortionists rather than robbery

43:03

two weeks after the murder winston

43:05

mccoy jr was arrested his

43:07

motivation prosecutor said was robbery

43:10

but nothing has been taken from doctor

43:12

patterson still the patterson

43:14

case went to trial three times

43:16

ending in a deadlock juri twice

43:19

before mccoy was acquitted of the murder

43:22

how many of these cases are other where the provider

43:25

or clinic workers the

43:27

case has been mr done a fighter not proper looked

43:29

into to say

43:34

somewhere like ninety one the first

43:36

eyes and am i gonna try

43:39

, force doctor at a clinic

43:41

springfield missouri said

43:43

you only magazine shoots

43:46

the office manager who was

43:48

paralyzed was paralyzed result with

43:51

it called something else the

43:54

it will call accounted robbery okay it

43:56

crept up right

43:59

really rare following

44:01

my bag with carbonite just

44:03

on the site and less

44:06

this less this again nothing chicken

44:08

here has click here that his car robert

44:13

dr paul

44:15

hack meyer the shot

44:18

the ninety ninety four north

44:22

hollywood how

44:24

in the police say i'm reading a news

44:26

report may have been planning

44:29

robbed him yeah them

44:34

right like

44:36

wider amazon

44:39

, an overland park kansas

44:43

electronic the one sort like jeff

44:46

shit the shouldn't

44:48

through a window or something the

44:50

average filter a window at

44:52

one though at lying in house

44:54

that not with the same have high powered by the

44:56

languages play cost and

44:59

because i have an abortion provider i'm

45:01

the person's writer i'm divorced a

45:04

decided highway robbery

45:08

regular the sheriff's ending about forty or

45:10

fifty eight from the window and

45:12

birch tree of forty feet from

45:15

the street that's

45:17

com or

45:19

not

45:23

then amanda tells me that on a section

45:25

of the army of god's website they've

45:28

claimed credit for the first two shootings

45:30

the one in missouri and the one in houston

45:33

this is well before doctor gun

45:35

the doctor widely believed to be the first

45:37

abortion doctor shot north america

45:39

was killed amanda reads

45:41

an entry from the website from november nineteen

45:44

ninety two the activists

45:46

and the us referred to here are

45:48

anti abortionists harper

45:52

baby killer of ,

45:54

has been such a accomplices were

45:56

shot illusory also have been shot

45:59

survive no your credit

46:01

and city david

46:03

gun was at first direct hit attributed

46:06

to writing

46:09

weapon their manuals you

46:11

may or may not manual

46:14

once the army of god responsible

46:17

or is this just a claim to help

46:19

stoke the membership into action amanda

46:22

is planning to investigate further her

46:24

obsession with fanaticism and anti

46:26

abortion cases continuing and

46:28

publications come to her looking for articles

46:31

on the same so it's a bit of vicious cycle

46:34

he says what we're doing is helping her for

46:36

my part all continue to investigate

46:39

the shootings in canada i'll

46:41

continue to try to track down those

46:43

who may have participated or helped

46:45

in some way and i'll

46:47

continue to correspond with james

46:49

com in the hope that

46:51

i'll finally be able to convince him the

46:54

talk

46:56

rick from a federal prison began

46:59

speaking now hello

47:15

someone know something is hosted is written

47:17

and produced by mean david written

47:19

the series is also produced by had

47:21

deal abdel nabi death camps

47:24

and amanda rob sound

47:26

design by evan kelly emily

47:28

, now is our digital producers and

47:30

our story editor is chris oak are

47:34

executive producer assess of hernandez

47:37

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47:39

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47:41

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