0:00

i distinctly remember, hearing someone yell stop

0:02

that ban from cbc podcast an

0:05

investigation and to how young

0:07

men are being recruited and radicalized

0:09

on the internet out

0:13

minassian supercharged

0:15

form at 8

0:16

on facebook and

0:19

has already begun a

0:21

dark online subculture that's

0:24

spilling over into the real world, boys,

0:26

like me available now on cbc,

0:29

listen and everywhere you get your party

0:33

this is a cbc

0:36

podcast the

0:38

following episode contains mature

0:40

subject matter please take care

0:42

david

0:45

hi john

0:49

so i've been in touch with james cop he's

0:51

been messaging and he mentioned you and said the

0:53

curve you might interested talking to me

0:55

so how did you come to know james com

0:58

mmmm ever lamp that we went down there

1:01

for what been ninety been

1:03

ninety and democratic national

1:06

democratic party morning

1:09

they overdid so

1:11

we went down there to protest that

1:15

john duncan was a long time anti abortion

1:17

activist he calls abortion

1:19

legal murder and refers to

1:21

abortion providers as serial

1:23

killers t , cop

1:25

actually met in jail in atlanta after

1:27

they'd been arrested at the abortion protest

1:31

protest don't have talked much in much but

1:34

she was certainly noticeable

1:36

hated it because he set

1:39

up little water around is caught is

1:41

remember hadn't hit have you had

1:43

hadn't hit to say about everything he was just fun guy

1:47

i'm not sure i'd describe cop as son

1:50

he's of course back in prison again serving

1:52

life sentence for the murder of doctor slap

1:54

him i've continued to actively

1:56

message with him through prison email system

2:01

i'm in jail least two dozen times

2:03

or more than that made that

2:05

you ever hear the term underground railroad

2:07

describing helping activists and the anti bush

2:09

movement

2:11

i never heard that term use that

2:13

way but i know those things went

2:15

on real i nodded the relative

2:18

pro lifers what

2:21

do anything to protect the

2:23

people who are trying to

2:25

escape incarceration

2:28

and you think they would do it knowing

2:30

what they were helping the person for well

2:34

if

2:34

it happened for me sometimes in the answer

2:36

to the put me up for the night you know and i knew

2:39

that he was gonna go out shoot the serial

2:42

killer there was there was i'll

2:45

talk about the price was certainly

2:48

mavericks used to put him up and not tell authorities

2:53

jim never talk to you about that canadian

2:55

shootings in way that you would think that he was

2:57

involved

2:59

we talked about i would ask yards they did you

3:01

can fall because you know in the paper here was

3:04

they traced his car and they did this analogy

3:07

do that are used in a pit denied

3:10

though

3:11

the people that did help on and knew

3:14

what he was about to go do should

3:16

they be held accountable the

3:19

people who know him the not try to talk

3:21

amount of oil you dot that everybody

3:24

who help that

3:27

every one of try to talk

3:29

about it very

3:31

few cops around but

3:34

they were just so many people who would

3:36

help them anyway because they think

3:38

that they think think be families be

3:40

well families don't have the courage but

3:42

i have helped somebody does the

3:45

right oh

3:47

pursuer

3:52

though very few cops around

3:54

says duncan i've exchanged

3:57

over twenty messages with cop today all

3:59

of his adding to me includes latin expressions

4:02

like packs for peace or

4:04

d v for deal of a lantern god

4:06

willing but there are also

4:08

lots of smiley testimonies it's

4:11

like kind of code everything

4:13

is monitored and cop is clearly

4:15

used to carefully communicating like this

4:18

i push regularly to speak on the phone

4:20

because i want hear his voice and ask the

4:22

questions but the conversation

4:24

circles back on itself with cock

4:26

mentioning more people i should talk to

4:28

and it goes on and on until

4:31

suddenly the message i've been

4:33

waiting for comes through james

4:36

costs says talk to you

4:38

very soon i'm

4:41

, region and as as someone know something

4:43

season seven seven

4:45

seven dark world

4:52

that amount that

4:57

given cops last message

4:59

to me a phone call from the prison could happen

5:01

at any time and i'm on constant

5:03

alert in meantime the meantime

5:05

and i decide keep pushing forward

5:07

ideally before any call with

5:10

cop we decide prioritize

5:12

speaking to anyone who might have been close to

5:14

him who may have information starting

5:17

with jennifer rock

5:19

i've always wanted to talk to jennifer rock up on

5:22

sucker her for twenty years

5:24

the wrong person hill jim

5:27

out of the country right after

5:30

the murder a nice

5:32

shit drives him away from

5:34

new york mexico

5:36

apparently stopping michael brace on my

5:38

way

5:48

turn

5:53

a high is high is

5:55

hi jennifer it's david written calling from

5:57

the canadian broadcasting corporation how you

6:00

i'm a podcast or plum while her years

6:02

am i just i wanted to reach

6:04

out to you because i'm making a podcast i'd like to

6:06

involve you in about the and

6:08

he bourse insane about shootings

6:10

in canada of abortion doctors and

6:15

good lot

6:18

no one said it would be easy

6:21

according to a source amanda has

6:23

found rock and costs made a stop

6:25

at lutheran minister michael brace place

6:28

supposedly in november nineteen

6:30

ninety eight before heading to

6:32

mexico ray had

6:34

military experience and as convicted

6:36

abortion clinic bomber said be

6:38

member the army of god he

6:40

seems to have known cart and several

6:42

others on the extreme and that antiabortion

6:44

violence and as an organizer of

6:46

one the better known antiabortion gatherings

6:49

known as the white rose banquet

6:52

here's bray speaking outside cops

6:54

trial and buffalo in two thousand and three

6:57

he , murderer he killed

6:59

a murderer was a murderer as mississippians

7:02

mr cop as defender the innocent the

7:05

same year bray was asked by c

7:07

b c if cop had ever spoken

7:09

him about the shootings in canada

7:12

no , hasnt wouldnt

7:15

tell you

7:18

because i support such as you wouldn't

7:20

, to frustrated

7:32

well as years it has

7:34

please leave message thank you

7:38

i this is the message for michael

7:40

, as david region calling

7:42

from canada canadian broadcasting corporation

7:45

corporation podcast that i am interested

7:47

involving you in in an interview you

7:50

hello interview hey is this mister

7:52

bray yeah are

7:54

hi thanks thanks picking up the phone stay

7:57

bridge in here colleagues in the canadian broadcasting

7:59

corporation ah

8:05

i got

8:07

why do this or the i were to why i can

8:09

do it on phone right now if you want are

8:12

you know what what about health or a

8:15

dog show up another time

8:18

we set up a time for the next day and i

8:20

call three times

8:23

the first goes the message and

8:25

next to seem to be picked up then

8:27

hung up

8:31

and hello

8:36

i gotta hang up i'm sorry

8:39

and he doesn't get back back

8:43

on the canadian side the border i try couple

8:46

of other activists known on the ground

8:48

to have more extreme views but nothing

8:50

back from them

8:54

either david written calling from the canadian

8:56

broadcasting corporation time

8:59

to focus on more potentially key people

9:01

and the unsolved shootings of canadian

9:04

doctors from malice short and

9:06

feynman the border crossings

9:08

to and from canada and the us

9:10

around the time that each of the three canadian

9:12

doctors were shot point

9:14

to james cop and loretta

9:16

mera vehicles registered

9:19

to both cop and mera were recorded

9:21

crossing according to documents and

9:23

on at least one occasion they were

9:25

actually seen together information

9:28

from jack steal the confidential informant

9:31

makes me want ask gonna smell vc some

9:33

questions to mirror and

9:35

twelve ac live together in together northeastern

9:37

us

9:40

gonna try to talk

9:42

to dennis mulvey see and loretta mera

9:44

try calling another think both use

9:54

i had a dentist i

9:57

then if it's david written here on my podcast

9:59

whoa

10:00

the canadian broadcasting corporation

10:02

making podcast that i'd like to involve

10:05

you in and loretta as possible about

10:07

abortion abortion

10:11

to my wife catch every

10:13

call you back at certain number or would you

10:15

want to yeah ,

10:18

so to be phone number and are you

10:20

in canada yeah i'm in canada the

10:24

recall code red

10:27

okay yeah , watch

10:29

close back to read are you going

10:31

be able toss mr david richards number

10:38

that

10:42

would allow it in good figure

10:44

out tomorrow

10:47

okay to mock call tomorrow

10:49

what's tomorrow what's what's time for you i'm

10:52

already

10:54

i determined morningstar

11:03

oh hi that loretta yeah

11:05

the reddit they remember as precise

11:08

relationship to cop is largely unknown

11:10

but her involvement in actions with him

11:12

over the years is well documented

11:14

in the media and court documents

11:16

to my knowledge she hasn't spoken

11:18

to the media since her arrest for aiding

11:21

and abetting com while he was on the

11:23

run in the wake of doctor slip eons murder

11:27

what is

11:29

the what as i've

11:31

seen

11:34

i'm looking at actions in

11:36

nineties and what's changed

11:39

in the tactics and abortion

11:41

rights and looking at where we

11:43

came from and where we are now and

11:46

trying to assess what means well

11:51

to my experience with depression is

11:53

that no matter how much they

11:55

each the journalist is in good

11:57

faith and is really trying

12:00

accurately portray anything

12:03

i might be trying to say trying just realized

12:05

that there was somehow get it wrong i

12:08

only interests would be if i could

12:10

say any hello to

12:15

bring the end of abortion i'm

12:17

i'm not sure that my voice would

12:19

be helpful didn't

12:21

care about

12:23

unborn children not being held and

12:26

my for ways to the controversial many

12:30

people the

12:32

i reject the whole heartedly anything

12:34

i would have to say merely because it would be idol

12:36

playing it so

12:39

i don't don't know me either

12:42

i know that you'd probably not trust journalism

12:44

don't trust i'm , in truth telling

12:46

and and i'll see for telling the truth

12:49

and their own truth and i'll broadcast that you

12:52

what are your website and i see

12:54

the error was worth you know cold case

12:56

crime investigator

13:00

the yeah

13:03

i just i just think that probably

13:06

i can't help me al gore children

13:08

by having com

13:10

let me ask you are a couple of questions in see

13:13

how you do how do you see

13:15

your actions in the past like you regret

13:17

anything the

13:19

typically what thing

13:21

just any of the protesting ernie of

13:23

the other activities now

13:28

regret anything i did i

13:31

have no interest burn notice if

13:33

he or a you know

13:35

been there done that got the t-shirt the t-shirt no interest

13:37

in anything but a private life

13:39

right yeah i understand after

13:42

i mean he served was two years i think

13:44

for assisting copyright ap

13:46

two and half years and ,

13:49

are three unsolved shootings in canada

13:51

that i was looking at as well as part this

13:54

this was wondering if you had any knowledge

13:56

about any of those shootings or any of the

13:59

participant that might have been involved in that i

14:04

i don't think my like

14:08

true the

14:09

unborn and therefore i don't think that

14:11

i need to are you should have conversation

14:15

so would you be able to tell me if you are

14:17

involved in any those shootings in canada says

14:20

out something out something get nervous the over

14:25

kids face david i mean

14:27

come on yeah

14:30

yeah i ,

14:32

go m i

14:35

gotta go

14:40

i wish had more time was loretta

14:42

the last answer i felt was cold

14:45

he does tell me that mel vc wants

14:48

to speak to me i'm sure

14:50

whether he was still agree to talk i called

14:52

the same number the following morning

14:56

a while ohio a dentist this

14:59

is david and going

15:01

right right right yeah com what

15:04

what tried to few now

15:06

after my interview with mera i'm not sure

15:08

what mel they see will give me is anything

15:11

but he does seem to want to talk

15:14

here you had connection to the anti

15:16

abortion movement a maneuver serve some time

15:18

for bombings and i wonder if you can talk

15:20

little bit about when , was

15:22

going to public school was no such thing as

15:25

pro life i've never heard of and slammed

15:28

my ear

15:30

recall that mulvey see served seven

15:33

years in nineteen eighties for bombing clinics

15:35

a new york state

15:37

what about the people now i'm into she

15:39

only connection to the movement now i'm in presenting

15:41

yourself as an outsider

15:43

minutes i'll on my part them if they're

15:46

what they call pro lifers the

15:48

, cool pro life movement saw

15:50

number money to those guys they

15:52

do their thing and it it

15:54

on they stay in lcs they get spit

15:57

upon you know and history

16:00

is going to show that doing the right thing you

16:02

know that all right you learn this man offered

16:07

to the morning it was no one present

16:09

family was a don't want present i

16:12

would always coordinate with the fire departments

16:14

such as you pay somebody was passed by was

16:16

some old lady fell asleep

16:18

zero heels janitors something

16:21

i was raised in the days when not

16:24

you were told if you don't like to some

16:26

sun about it right

16:28

like and did some about the

16:31

big topic you know and there's lots of

16:33

very strong points of view on it and i'm trying

16:35

to navigate them are you say

16:41

that's great so

16:44

tell me in your words why you blew up

16:48

i get to combat tours are not

16:50

i watched joe market or watch opaque

16:52

the it's like a back i was called

16:54

the page kill me while the american

16:57

to compete left and right i

17:00

was just raised like that

17:03

you think exactly the same way i

17:05

mean you haven't done any more bombings yeah

17:08

i'm done i'm done i i my thing

17:12

sorry i couldn't have was linux

17:14

sorry right to figure out who i was

17:16

before it's and get more i mean i

17:18

don't i don't mind save american citizens

17:21

you know it's it's a good thing to do so

17:24

you don't regret any of them oh

17:27

hell no i just regret that i could

17:30

right up there are you kidding

17:34

on february fourth nineteen eighty seven

17:36

dennis smell vc turned himself in

17:38

for bombings of to new york clinics

17:42

well they couldn't

17:44

catch me period me period to give up cosa

17:46

cardinal connor told me to do so so

17:49

i did that though the

17:52

around our to what he would be on my side

17:55

now you went to jail or again

17:57

for assisting james cop is a fugitive

18:00

are you happen be a friend of my wife

18:02

a lot easier to some taken together a thing

18:05

i told my take the rap your com

18:07

my wife loose cause i knew that was the game

18:10

but agents tell me out we don't do that stuff

18:12

anymore me

18:14

are you produce of oh yes if

18:17

you want do a script i mean you know have

18:19

river north america hates people like

18:21

me and half of country lox people like me

18:24

you got the balls want to do good script

18:26

if you're rich next has staff meeting

18:29

i am interested in hearing more from mouth

18:31

a c about what he knows maybe

18:34

discussing screenplay ideas as

18:36

a way to do that i asked

18:38

for his email address and press forward

18:41

pumping out to heard about that is that there was a rifle

18:44

and sks rifle that that you

18:46

stored at target confidential

18:48

informants house no

18:50

that was his i was mine okay

18:54

to run contrary

18:57

amanda and i ask jack steal the f

18:59

b i informant about this and he

19:01

tells us that around nineteen ninety two

19:03

mulvey see did work with him and goon

19:06

operation selling forty or fifty

19:08

guns and that it was a close

19:10

one time shot deal this

19:13

is about six years before period

19:15

steel says mulvey see brought the sks

19:17

rifle to his apartment around

19:19

and before october nineteen ninety eight

19:22

when doctor sloppy and was shot the

19:25

authors mulvey see stored the gun there because

19:27

mulvey see was still on parole

19:30

okay and he also has said that

19:32

he bought had binoculars and flashlight

19:35

with you that were found behind doctor slept in

19:37

so

19:38

really i don't eat at

19:41

that's not possible he said that there was a high

19:43

was new york on it and there was

19:45

of binoculars aunts and some flashlight

19:49

robert years because was hard to for the f b

19:51

i or guy was like a savant

19:53

she was an idiot but he he can remember

19:55

phone number from twenty years ago didn't

19:59

find jack

20:00

the deal to be an idiot but i

20:02

doubt his work with the f b i improved

20:04

his relationship with mulvey c or marrow

20:07

try to zero in more on some of my outstanding

20:09

questions

20:12

so there were three doctors up abortion

20:14

providers up in canada that were shot doctor

20:16

i'm alice doctor shortened doctor feynman

20:18

i'm looking at those cases to i

20:20

talked to learn about those shootings yesterday

20:22

and she just laughed my ass to see knew

20:24

about them or had any involvement in well

20:27

you know i i i don't think i know

20:29

about female is

20:32

does that sets were had talked

20:34

some girl by name amy

20:36

or something so i don't know

20:38

if that is that we're talking about

20:41

amy is likely a reference to amy

20:43

land was know who died of breast

20:45

cancer in february two thousand and two

20:48

he was an anti abortion activist and along

20:50

with cough was reportedly arrested

20:52

in nineteen ninety while blockading

20:54

women's clinics in vermont hop

20:57

was supposedly interested in marrying

20:59

her but i think mel vc probably

21:01

knows i'm talking about loretta

21:05

well no it's it's that actually the f b i

21:07

documents that i have say that loretta

21:09

car was used by jim cop and

21:11

that loretta herself was on some kind scouting

21:14

mission with james cops the

21:16

get heard something about that but i don't give

21:18

you any you know i'm not worried about

21:20

it they aren't worried about it so

21:23

there are you worried about it one i

21:25

want to find out what happened and i'm i'm

21:27

into truth telling that there's any kind of chance

21:29

for funding it would happen the truth is important

21:31

but it still causes your eternal it

21:33

happened me it's which

21:35

the i planned my left you're lucky i'm talking

21:37

to talking mean i mean i

21:40

the journalists were your they just paid

21:42

you legacy know to what they want i mean

21:44

a lot of a really jaime her my

21:47

, my try to be fair

21:49

but i'll email you and can have my address and

21:51

you can always call me and with that

21:54

our call comes to an end

21:56

i take care take care yourself and

21:58

think about loretta thanks

22:02

following my conversations with mirror

22:04

and mel vc i sift through

22:06

some newly arrived at vi and court

22:09

documents i discovered

22:11

that there was there was deal where loretta

22:13

mera helped convince james cop

22:15

to wave extradition from france and

22:18

another potential plea deal where loretta would

22:20

assist and getting some kind of concession

22:22

from james caught in the slutty in case both

22:24

deals were seen as potential benefits

22:26

to mel vc as well in

22:29

discussions around this potential second

22:31

deal one were married actually as allowed

22:33

to speak alone with cop on few occasions

22:36

one of the conditions proposed by the prosecutor

22:39

is that mirror and mel vc must

22:41

answer questions about their knowledge

22:43

of or concealment of the planning

22:46

execution or the shooting of doctor

22:48

burnett slept in a rochester

22:50

doctor and of doctor jack

22:52

feynman in manitoba why

22:54

would prosecution think mirror and valve

22:56

ac would have information specifically

22:59

about doctor famous case the

23:01

for reviewing these documents my understanding

23:04

was that doctor shorts case is

23:06

the one generally assess to had the most

23:08

circumstantial evidence of a james cops

23:10

potential involvement and the

23:12

message the now retired prosecutor

23:15

to see if she can remember up at the same

23:17

in detail in the plea deal discussions

23:19

but she doesn't get back me

23:24

com continues to email me seemingly

23:27

laying groundwork for an upcoming call

23:29

but it's like trying to read t least

23:31

from a thousand see that will

23:33

he call then

23:36

much earlier than i'd expect for california

23:38

time my phone rings

23:42

i load david rosen high

23:45

as they britain i

24:02

uncover from cbc podcasts

24:04

explores a different high stakes true crime

24:07

and justice story each season

24:09

from next him sex cult to

24:11

the satanic panic of the nineteen eighties

24:13

or the investigation into a serial

24:15

killer targeting gay men in the village

24:18

find uncover on cbc listen

24:20

app or wherever you get your podcasts

24:29

com from federal prison

24:33

james cop on the phone from prison

24:36

in california

24:38

the i'm com thank so much for calling time

24:42

yeah know this

24:44

what does not sound like expected

24:46

from his emails lucid

24:48

and com we're

24:52

talking though to get

24:54

the ball rolling i ask him what he thinks about

24:56

roe versus wade and what's going on

24:58

and supreme court

25:01

i just wanna guess start off with

25:03

asking you about where you

25:05

stand now are

25:09

we have to

25:16

worry about about is going do with at

25:18

matter of hours ago our

25:22

not one of them

25:25

specialist one that like movies

25:27

he believes that roe versus wade will

25:29

never be substantially reversed the

25:32

thing that antiabortion supporters in

25:34

texas aren't going far enough

25:37

venomous business for minute and i tell you something

25:39

it's

25:41

hartman see a whole bunch of powerful

25:44

pro lifers dot to actually sit back and saying

25:46

there we won battle what your toys and

25:48

then they don't the

25:51

try to get into the shootings

25:53

have you stayed pretty much the same since the

25:55

time of the slept in shooting

25:57

or whenever you know before that

26:00

the you know whenever you were right engaged

26:03

if i understand question you

26:07

know i told you the thing about fresno and

26:11

that informs every single thing never

26:13

leaves me and

26:21

fresno is an incident cops says

26:23

he experienced in fresno calif

26:26

it's something talks about a lot and his correspondence

26:29

with me it's also something he

26:31

uses here deflect my question fresno

26:34

incident is one the he says illustrates

26:36

his belief that many abortions

26:38

are forced upon women by others

26:40

notably men to

26:43

me

26:44

you know a woman was been

26:46

interact and slapped checked dragged

26:48

off and term worse clinics for god sakes polio

26:51

braces on feet run

26:53

away

26:55

what i'm locked away she would have loved

26:57

to run over to where i was calling

26:59

her

27:01

i cannot verify any these details

27:04

i circled back on shooting of them for

27:06

slap in again

27:09

talk about buffalo bit more talk about how you

27:11

see yourself in that particular scene with doctor

27:13

slepian and that shooting you

27:16

know when you're in you're children why should

27:18

you put your head head nice joining of the morning

27:25

at one point just is terrible what

27:27

happened of a sluggish turbo have my own

27:29

family a , price

27:31

was buried on on

27:34

will not trying to job of trying to

27:36

determine exactly like a trading a

27:39

man had noise targets of

27:41

three men made a public statement

27:43

i will never do abortion never scratch

27:46

my name awesome list and

27:49

that was my more emotional than

27:51

emotional sailed about and that is terrible

27:55

terrible thing what happened fails

27:58

cop says because

28:00

his shot kill doctor slurpee and

28:02

whereas the canadian guy wounded

28:04

his three targets doctors

28:06

ramallah so short and feynman ramallah

28:10

was able to return to work short

28:12

and same and weren't

28:14

now you're suggesting that you weren't responsible

28:16

for any the comedians not

28:20

how i are you how

28:23

, wish and

28:27

you know i have that accuracy have

28:29

that much

28:32

got i defy without accurate or

28:34

three now number one and number two slugs

28:36

wants to be like yeah

28:39

i did

28:40

why our wish lists

28:43

but anyway you about and based on information

28:45

i have no

28:47

doubt my mind he was shooter there's

28:53

no doubt in my mind i'm

28:57

an amateur that's why doctors warned

29:00

that's what

29:05

and i just wonder when you talk

29:07

about not being involved in those shootings

29:10

the ramallah case

29:12

i've seen evidence of says that you are actually

29:14

in the area the time and is that is

29:16

that not true that were you not seen at the borders

29:19

there and

29:21

no hello yeah

29:23

, these are border like in see i see reports

29:25

that say that you are seen like on these

29:27

various days in a car that

29:29

less own by loretta mera scouting

29:32

are shameless adnan the day

29:34

the day of doctor mouse assuming that same car

29:36

across the border just hours after you

29:38

know those those are the documents i've seen

29:42

they noted in trial that's not going do anything

29:45

they also know she might be

29:47

pointed out making i

29:50

was a professional and i'm an amateur

29:53

and then and few shorts case i'm

29:55

find that they've found dna that's linked

29:57

to you there on this balaclava they found on the driveway

29:59

with

30:00

now do , story

30:02

short doctor you short and

30:04

caster ontario you were pulled over

30:07

to the week before was shot their on highway for

30:09

on three

30:10

according to the police they pulled you over

30:12

in your car there that

30:14

wasn't why

30:16

not me

30:18

also recall that cops car

30:20

was recorded crossing the border into

30:22

the u s from ontario less

30:25

than two hours after doctor short

30:27

shooting

30:29

never did any of the canadian thinks she

30:32

, know that that don't know the guy

30:34

who did a but i've heard of heard unconvinced

30:37

the guy of north was about north retire

30:40

he was inch or two shooter up there is

30:42

about retire he did his thing if

30:44

she had been called the should find but he got away with

30:46

it i away to going then

30:48

there's the shootings up north that are off record no

30:51

one ever called the police for them the

30:54

us the term hrt stands

30:56

for hostage rescue team i

30:58

press on cops suggestion that

31:00

there were unreported shootings

31:02

of abortion providers in canada

31:05

you're saying that there were other shootings and canada that were

31:07

reported as antiabortion shootings

31:09

early the shootings at all

31:12

nord referred you , find

31:14

of doctors are you have to go there

31:17

bring in the united states that's correct

31:20

from a federal prison there

31:23

are other shootings in the us that we

31:25

have sounds that may have been perpetrated

31:27

by anti abortionists but were called

31:29

something else like a robbery it'll

31:32

be tough to verify cops claim a

31:34

vote unreported canadian shootings

31:37

unless someone listening comes forward

31:39

our time is almost up try

31:42

to press further on doctor statements

31:44

case the third unsolved

31:46

shooting in canada dr

31:49

fame and in manitoba

31:51

the again a black nineteen eighty seven

31:53

cavalier registered apparently to you seen

31:56

going over the border after his shooting

31:58

and so all these what

32:00

car a vehicle or you're being seen it

32:03

it isn't your car though let

32:06

me answer this way i'll

32:09

tell you how the sport torched abortion

32:13

from horse's mouth disenfranchised

32:15

by china reno the

32:18

followed you know what happened in nineties

32:22

she went in there and she says she said the people

32:24

you petrie's after mob anymore she got to chase

32:26

after the pro lifers should have done that

32:28

and they were frustrated

32:30

here cop provides a convoluted

32:32

series similar to one amanda rob

32:34

sound and her reporting on the case in two thousand

32:37

and two that was used by cops

32:39

porters prior to his concession that

32:42

the shooting of doctor sloppy and had been

32:44

undertaken by an f b i agent to

32:46

impress janet reno who

32:48

was us attorney general from nineteen

32:50

ninety three to two thousand and one in

32:53

nineteen ninety eight reno did create

32:55

a task force to investigate violence

32:58

against health care providers and

33:00

in response to the murder doctor sloppy

33:03

the in cops version of events the

33:05

task force that reno created

33:07

was made up of disenfranchised f

33:10

b i agents who worked to frame

33:12

anti abortion activists started

33:15

to hypothesize as to how and f b

33:17

i team would have carried out antiabortion

33:19

actions including blowing up

33:21

clinics which he refers to hear

33:23

as mills

33:25

i forgot about door i go check out the

33:27

mouth first of all i'd disarm

33:30

the alarms what

33:32

i did the nineties before i got into shooting right

33:34

on i'm surprised shooter but i was the other stuff

33:37

much better

33:39

so cop first says he copied

33:41

the canadian guy and then in first

33:43

that it was actually a frame job by f

33:45

b i agents responsible keep

33:48

pressing

33:51

sloppy and then there's been some speculation

33:54

by family and others for their spoken to that might

33:56

have had some help in that case do

33:58

the do all the work on

34:00

don't read being helped and i'm in my right

34:02

america's connected to you and another dennis mulvey

34:04

so connected again

34:06

, like like canadian thing

34:08

i wish i had been canadian shooter as

34:11

if i did did

34:13

new something for the thing that you just

34:15

said is did i have any help i wish

34:17

help had i was forgot had had

34:19

success but that one

34:21

i operated alone and

34:23

that's why doc

34:30

i recall is interrupted the prison

34:32

line apparently disconnects automatically

34:34

after fifteen minutes the

34:36

last thing he said was i

34:38

wish to god i had had some help

34:41

but that one i operate as alone

34:44

and that's why i got one

34:48

i send a recording of the call to amanda

34:52

i questioned him about the ,

34:55

shootings there was that one moment where he said because

34:58

slipped up on something you notice that on

35:00

up

35:05

they had held up i wish to god

35:07

i'd have some help but on top

35:09

one i operated alone

35:13

that's what was he added that

35:15

was it that wondered how don't how

35:18

i'm now on operated alone

35:22

in my opinion saying that one

35:24

and to some extent even in the nineties

35:27

before got into shooting implies

35:29

that there were other shootings involving

35:31

com i message retired

35:33

f b i informants handler michael

35:35

osborne to get his thoughts on cops

35:38

claims of not being canadian shooter

35:40

and that he was an amateur it's

35:42

boring tells me amateurs don't maintain

35:45

a fugitive status like caught dead

35:47

he and his support network were insane

35:51

hop also described himself as an expert

35:53

shot to lou michelle of the buffalo news

35:56

and loose as caught had really bragged

35:58

to him about how he had worked with russian gas

36:00

rifle the rifle had rifle had

36:03

bullet catcher attached for the slap him shooting

36:05

and but was taped for balance to

36:07

the liking of the shooter not

36:09

the actions of an amateur also

36:12

doctor ramallah could have easily stays

36:14

same say this doctor slept in had

36:16

not apply to tourniquet dr

36:19

ramallah says own first aid tying

36:21

that turn a cat is what helped save his life

36:23

not any shooter expertise

36:25

to was trained a wound not kill

36:28

according to a statement by the prosecution

36:31

one of the other canadian doctors also

36:33

had to prevent themselves from bleeding out i'm

36:36

not so sure about cops claims that the shootings

36:38

were so different maybe the

36:40

canadian shooter wasn't professional trying

36:42

to scare or maim doctors maybe

36:45

the shooters was trying to kill them and

36:47

sales hop

36:49

makes claims and uses various the senses

36:51

and our conversation in fact

36:53

he's tried to push forward and appeal in

36:55

the us courts based on his assertion

36:58

that trial judge did not allow him to argue

37:00

that he was saving the lives of children

37:03

that by killing a doctor he

37:05

prevented future murders whether

37:08

or not any future constitutional supreme

37:11

court decisions will impact his argument

37:14

the only time will tell

37:18

i feel kind of sometimes like i'm i'm continuing

37:20

your obsession like actually creating

37:22

part of problem because he yeah you

37:24

came saying he had this obsession with

37:26

them for some doctor shooters and they're

37:28

obviously bart's shooting and and

37:31

, i don't like don't

37:33

know if i've helped with that i

37:36

tried is brought me

37:39

i mean i've been all along and says the aftermath

37:41

some for twenty some odd years with

37:45

you i got somebody who

37:48

, a to deal with that was man

37:50

one answered dig into things

37:52

with me and we

37:54

found i think some new information

37:56

but the full truth seems

37:58

sister for each other

38:00

the idea that the who the helpers are

38:02

we ever going be able to find that and then

38:04

made me think like how do you how

38:06

to reconcile with tragedy really

38:08

like how can we do that without the full truth

38:12

not even ever read his i mean it's has

38:14

it is a tacit is a hole in your heart of us

38:17

what it is guess the real question

38:19

is do we have to reconcile with tragedy

38:24

i have to try to understand why mean

38:26

i just do i mean a sort of like

38:29

it's , nature nature

38:31

figure stuff out and

38:35

so

38:38

the know yeah i can live with that both

38:41

i always loved ones that make every story

38:43

i've ever done my team never i've

38:46

, never don't think effort

38:49

my garden every single answer

38:51

i run as i think what you do

38:53

as you get some point my for if you if

38:56

you can see can and

38:59

i'll never even with pieces missing

39:02

and isolate even squint now and seem

39:04

much more of the picture of what happened

39:07

and mean

39:10

a relay the

39:12

and of the bedrock tragedy of my life

39:16

and yet as them the best or perhaps

39:18

of my allies and so as

39:20

so very strange saying

39:23

, as a very much enjoyed working

39:26

with you it's so strange

39:29

because it's such as far as painful

39:31

subject but i am so sad

39:34

our work is almost over

39:40

thanks for involving in the case

39:42

the hope that land and the other

39:44

family members think that it was worth

39:46

their time

39:49

on our house hunters care

39:52

okay everyone got on

39:54

with our life

39:59

i'm going to keep alive of communication

40:01

open with james com he

40:03

told me he'd listening and my phones on

40:06

the evidence in shootings of doctor ramallah

40:08

doctor short and doctor feynman is

40:10

circumstantial but is think compelling

40:14

the terror that was inflicted at that

40:16

time on family and community is still

40:18

being felt the extreme beliefs

40:20

that led that terror are still

40:23

present today we see it

40:25

and polarization under the guise

40:27

of traditional values and

40:29

in the gas will of the supreme court regardless

40:33

i still want to know what happened and

40:35

why and try to into

40:37

least keep talking about it

40:39

see where that goes this

40:42

is the final regularly plant episode

40:44

this season if there is anyone

40:46

listening who has information about canadian

40:49

shootings they shouldn't hesitate

40:51

to contact me

41:03

someone know something is hosted is written

41:05

and produced by mean david written

41:08

the , is also produced by had

41:10

deal abdel nabi death camps

41:12

and amanda rob with help from

41:14

eunice kim and ashley mack mack

41:17

design by evan kelly emily

41:19

canal is our digital producer and

41:22

our story editor is chris is transcriptions

41:26

by natalia ferguson mina see

41:28

une and luke williams parent

41:31

evan parent guard is our video producer

41:33

benson and designed are artwork are

41:36

across promo producer is amanda

41:38

kooks special thanks to braden

41:40

alexander cbc visual resources

41:43

and to diana read gal that the cbc

41:45

reference library or executive

41:47

producer assessor fernandez the

41:49

director of cbc podcasts the director

41:51

a new running or executive director

41:53

is lesley merch linger if

41:56

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