0:00

Carol Cox: If you've been in the ivory tower, it's time

0:02

to escape it and step into thought leadership for greater impact.

0:06

Listen to my conversation with Dr. Laura McGuire on this episode of the

0:10

Speaking Your Brand podcast. More and more women are making an impact by

0:18

starting businesses, running for office and

0:21

speaking up for what matters. With my background as a TV political

0:25

analyst, entrepreneur and speaker, I

0:28

interview and coach purpose driven women to

0:30

shape their brands, grow their companies,

0:33

and become recognized as influencers in

0:36

their field. This is speaking your brand,

0:39

your place to learn how to persuasively

0:41

communicate your message to your audience.

0:46

Hi there and welcome to the Speaking Your Brand podcast. I'm your host, Carol Cox.

0:50

We're continuing our series around inspiring

0:52

you to use your voice no matter what your topic or industry.

0:56

Now, if you've been listening to this podcast for a while, you know that I talk

0:59

quite a bit about what I call the expert

1:01

trap and how so many of us get stuck

1:04

teaching and training in our presentations

1:06

and don't step into thought leadership. Now, this applies not only to those of us

1:10

who are entrepreneurs, but of course to all

1:13

the academics out there as well. And my hand is raised because I was in

1:17

academia in the early part of my career.

1:20

This episode is a treasure trove of insights

1:22

for anyone passionate about making a

1:24

difference through their work, especially if you're in academia or any field where

1:29

expertise is a given and is very highly

1:32

valued. But thought leadership can make an

1:35

even bigger impact. My guess is Laura McGuire, PhD, a social

1:39

scientist, educator and entrepreneur whose

1:43

journey and work exemplify transformative

1:45

thought leadership. If you would like to find out what speaker

1:49

archetype you are, take our free quiz.

1:52

It just takes a few minutes and then once

1:54

you take the quiz, you'll get your results. You'll find out if you're a stellar scholar,

1:58

a fabulous facilitator, a provocative

2:00

performer, or a spellbinding storyteller.

2:03

Once you get your result, then you'll also

2:06

get recommendations for how to amplify your

2:08

natural strengths and what to add to it.

2:11

To make you an even more dynamic speaker,

2:13

you can take this free quiz as speaking your

2:16

Brand.com slash quiz. Again, that's speaking your brand.com/quiz.

2:20

Now let's get on with the show.

2:23

Welcome to the podcast, Laura. Dr. Laura McGuire: Thank you so much for having me, Carol.

2:27

I'm so happy to be here. Carol Cox: It is a pleasure.

2:30

We have known each other for the past few

2:32

years, mostly through email communication.

2:35

Every once in a while you write back to one of my emails newsletters about the latest

2:39

podcast episode and tell me how much that

2:41

you enjoyed it. So I always appreciate hearing from listeners like you.

2:44

And I know we had chatted a few years ago to kind of about what you do with the teaching

2:50

and the writing, and then also speaking. So I wanted to have you on the podcast to

2:54

give us a perspective from from academia and

2:58

from fellow social scientists that you work

3:00

with and how they can escape the expert trap

3:04

and step into thought leadership. Because we know and I have a background in

3:07

academia, so I get it. We are prized for being experts.

3:10

That's what our degrees in. That's how we get promoted and and awarded

3:15

in the context in our workplaces. Same whether you're if you're a scientist or

3:19

an engineer or a physician or a pharmacist.

3:21

And by all means, I always say, please be an

3:24

expert in your workplace and with your

3:26

clients and with your customers, because that's what they need. They need your your

3:30

expertise. But when we think about stepping

3:32

into thought leadership, whether it's through public speaking or through writing a

3:35

book, I really want us to think about how

3:37

can we encourage our audiences to think

3:40

differently, to think bigger, to help us to

3:44

solve all these big challenges that we have,

3:47

both in the micro level and the macro level?

3:50

So, Laura, let me have you first tell us a

3:52

bit about what you do in your background, and then we'll go from there.

3:55

Dr. Laura McGuire: So I am a social scientist, as you mentioned,

3:59

being in academia and was in the university

4:03

system and worked for the government for a while and loved what I did and loved what I

4:08

do, but really wanted to be able to go

4:12

wherever the need was for these conversations. So I my again, a little more

4:17

of my background is that my degree is specifically are on educational leadership

4:21

for change, which is social justice and

4:23

educational systems. And then my research

4:25

for my dissertation was focused on sexual

4:27

health education. So in this space I focus a

4:30

lot on misconduct prevention, trauma

4:33

informed care, and preventing and responding

4:36

to interpersonal violence. So like you said, very, uh, expert kind of

4:42

field niche and evolving into being an

4:46

entrepreneur and really making my full time

4:49

living, teaching, writing and speaking, it's

4:51

really been. Creating transformational environments where

4:57

people can learn and imagine a different

5:00

future for themselves and their industry.

5:03

Carol Cox: Okay. I have so many questions for you, especially because you live in the state of

5:07

Florida, just like I do. And we know what our current governor has

5:13

been doing in the past couple of years with

5:15

laws that he has sponsored and that the

5:18

legislature has passed. So we can talk about that towards the end, if you would like, and

5:22

how that's impacting the work that you're doing and the work that you're seeing going

5:25

on, not just in Florida, but in other states

5:27

who may have done similar things or may

5:30

follow suit. But before we get there, may I

5:32

ask what got you interested in trauma

5:35

informed care and sexual assault prevention

5:39

and care? Dr. Laura McGuire: Yes. So my personal story very much feeds

5:45

into that, in that I'm a survivor of

5:47

domestic violence. And even before that, when I was young, was

5:51

very passionate about social justice, social

5:54

change and transformation and thinking about

5:57

how systems either support that or prevent

6:01

it from happening in the way that it should. So I was a high school dropout.

6:05

I got married super young and started having

6:10

children a few years after that and then

6:12

realized, okay, this is not a safe and

6:15

healthy situation. What am I going to do?

6:18

I had no GED, no nothing, ended up getting

6:22

that in my mid 20s and then really realized

6:25

that a lot of things that I had thought

6:28

about, college had evolved in that time, and

6:32

there were options to do more independent

6:34

learning, um, and still get wonderfully

6:37

regionally accredited degrees. So I went from my GED to my doctorate in

6:42

education in four years and eight months.

6:45

Carol Cox: Oh my God, that's amazing.

6:47

Congratulations. Dr. Laura McGuire: Thank you. And that experience particularly

6:53

getting the bachelor's degree at first, was

6:56

something that really gave me the keys to

7:00

spaces that I had not grown up with.

7:02

I come from generationally poor people, um,

7:04

first person in the family to go to college

7:06

and enter into that kind of life and future

7:10

that I would want for myself and my children. And so I became a teacher.

7:14

I worked with the school that partners with JPS and really loved what I was doing with

7:19

those students. I'll start working in victim advocacy and

7:22

being a full spectrum doula. So all of this fed into me then doing

7:27

corporate training for that entity of

7:30

schools, and they taught me a lot about

7:32

gender responsive care, strength based theory, and trauma informed care.

7:37

So that became the focus of my doctoral

7:40

work. And from there, kind of things just

7:42

continued to expand. And then as an entrepreneur, that has

7:46

continued to be the main thing that so many

7:49

industries are still really hungry for and

7:52

not receiving enough support around.

7:54

So that has kind of become my my bread and

7:57

butter, my main stake in this conversation

8:01

as a thought leader and business owner. Carol Cox: So tell me a little bit about with your

8:05

business, who are your ideal clients, who

8:07

comes to you and what does it look like that

8:10

you do with them, and what kind of what what are the outcomes that they get?

8:13

Yes. Dr. Laura McGuire: So it's kind of funny.

8:15

Who is my ideal client was very different, I

8:18

think in the beginning because I was focused on industries I had worked in and I was

8:22

familiar in, but what has really blossomed

8:26

and continued to grow has been industries

8:29

that I had not really thought, okay, I'm

8:32

going to put a lot of energy here, but

8:35

still, who is my ideal client no matter the

8:38

field that they're in, are people and

8:40

organizations that are passionate about deep

8:43

systemic paradigm shifts.

8:45

They want to do that work and they want

8:48

support to get there. So one of our mottos as an organization is

8:54

when you're ready to make a change, we're ready to help make that happen, right?

8:59

So they have to be in a place where they say, yes, we see this.

9:02

We have a vision for this. Maybe we've already got some training, some kind of

9:06

shifts going on already, but we want to take

9:09

it to that next level. And so that's where training on everything

9:13

from restorative practices at work to trauma

9:15

informed care, to responding to misconduct

9:19

in productive and survivor supportive ways

9:22

has become what we do through education and

9:26

through also strategic planning. So it's not just that was a great talk.

9:30

Right now. There's actually action steps that we're putting in place behind it.

9:33

Carol Cox: Now, when organizations and companies seek

9:36

you out or come to you. Has there been, you know, what is known as

9:40

like an inciting incident? I don't mean like an a problem with an

9:44

employee, but I mean, like, what is like the trigger for them to say, okay, like we are

9:47

ready for this next step.

9:50

So two things. Dr. Laura McGuire: Usually. Stand out, right?

9:53

One is that they're noticing that often

9:57

there's a lot of fatigue, burnout and high

9:59

turnover, and they're trying to identify

10:03

where that's coming from and what to do about it.

10:05

And again, maybe they've taken kind of one

10:08

on one overviews on understanding burnout or

10:12

emotional intelligence, but they're trying

10:14

to do some of this deeper work. The other thing that we see a lot is where

10:19

they really want to be able to differentiate

10:22

themselves from their competitors in these

10:24

deeper psychosocial ways, so they know

10:28

there's other people out there. I just literally yesterday in Florida, wonderfully,

10:33

did a training for a law firm who will be

10:37

the first law firm where every single person

10:40

who is part of it is certified in trauma

10:42

informed care as a legal professional.

10:45

And that's something that they decided to do, right.

10:47

In the first month that they opened. They said, we want to be known as the people

10:52

in this area and honestly throughout the country who our entire firm has these

10:56

competencies. So it's usually one of those

10:59

two paths that triggers it. Carol Cox: Okay. And so when I hear trauma informed

11:03

care, usually the context that I've heard it

11:06

in is either as a therapist, your mental health counselor, or as a physician.

11:09

And, you know, you have patients who come to

11:12

you. So in the context of a law firm or

11:15

other non-medical workplace, what is trauma

11:18

informed care look like? Dr. Laura McGuire: Yes. So trauma informed care is is so

11:22

interesting because it really is instead of

11:26

something that you're saying, well, if a client comes in and I'm their therapist and

11:29

they're traumatized or like you're saying a

11:32

medical provider, okay, you know, somebody's

11:34

injured, I address that it's changing the

11:37

lens through which we see all of the people

11:41

we interact with. And in my program, we expand that to not

11:45

just main trauma informed theory, but also

11:49

things like spoon theory and consent

11:52

culture, which is something that I've written a lot about.

11:55

And so it's having this approach to the way

11:59

that you're working with your clients, the way that you're communicating with them, the

12:02

way that you're responding to them, how you

12:04

are reading, the way they're interacting

12:07

with you. And then it is also building organizational

12:11

cultures that give these competencies to

12:15

each other. Right. Because so often the mistake I think that's

12:18

been made is we ask people to give and give

12:22

and give a certain approach and to be okay

12:26

with never receiving that. And that's just not sustainable.

12:29

So our program is really balancing both of

12:32

those sides. Carol Cox: Mhm. Okay. That that that makes sense Laura

12:36

and I and I appreciate the part about the culture as a whole because I think about

12:40

this so much. Everything from, you know, our

12:43

society and whatever behaviors we are seeing

12:46

are the ones that people tend to mimic. Because as humans we are mimickers.

12:50

So we can be told all day long, you know,

12:54

behave in a certain way. But if the people around us, especially our

12:57

leaders, are not doing that, we are probably

13:00

not going to respond the way that we've been

13:02

told. Dr. Laura McGuire: Exactly, exactly.

13:05

Yes. Carol Cox: Okay. So then let's so it sounds like you

13:08

have done a great job and kind of shifting

13:11

out of the expert trap and into thought leadership. Again, not with the kind of, you

13:15

know, on the ground trainings and things that you're doing for your clients.

13:19

Because again, they need that expertise because that's why they're hiring you.

13:22

Yet you have probably found that the thought

13:25

leadership does come into play, even during

13:28

workshop trainings, in order for them to

13:30

kind of see the big picture and what's possible and kind of where where they're

13:34

taking not only their organization, but everyone that they come into contact with.

13:38

So tell me a little bit about how you've developed your thought leadership over the

13:41

years. Dr. Laura McGuire: Yeah, that's such a good distinction, right?

13:44

Is that I think sometimes, particularly as

13:48

you've mentioned, we come from this background where we're so intensely trained

13:53

to have all of our sources and cite them and

13:56

give a million statistics. And that's what a lot of times people get

13:59

frustrated with. They say, I've heard this

14:02

concept, I went to that training or I saw

14:04

that keynote and it was a lot of really

14:06

great facts, but I have no idea what to do

14:10

with that. Right. What does that look like in my day to day

14:12

life? And so that's where I think I've

14:15

really moved into, like you're saying, this thought leadership space of getting people

14:20

to really be in that space of expansive

14:23

imagination around what does this look like

14:27

in practical application. Right. And so we break down, here's the

14:32

theories, here's the science, but here's

14:35

what that looks like in an email. Here's what that looks like in a text

14:39

message. Now you tell me, how do you think

14:42

this would look like in a conversation about

14:45

an employee's performance? Right. So making sure that people are seeing

14:50

those examples and then giving. Multiple opportunities throughout our time

14:54

together to also include their own

14:57

imaginings, because everyone is learning

15:01

from each other as well. And that's really important when we're

15:04

facilitating these kinds of discussions. Carol Cox: And have you found that it's helpful to share

15:08

stories in your workshops and trainings and

15:11

even obviously in your keynotes and other speaking that you do either your own stories

15:15

or stories of, you know, obviously, uh, that

15:18

have been, you know, all the identifying details have been taken out, but stories

15:22

that you have come across as well. And tell me a little bit about that and what

15:25

that looks like. Dr. Laura McGuire: Stories, I think, are one of the things that

15:32

makes people light up the most.

15:34

Right? Because I can even say, well, I've

15:37

seen a lot of situations like this, or I

15:39

know as a professional this is incredibly

15:41

common, but until you can give them a story

15:44

of one person who went through that or had

15:49

an example of that, they maybe don't see

15:52

that as real as it is.

15:55

Right? It kind of stays in the cerebral.

15:58

So making sure that.

16:01

I think it's a lot curating what stories are

16:04

going to be the most effective, right. Because there's a million people that I've

16:08

interacted with that have powerful things that they've shared with me that I have

16:12

permission to share with somebody else.

16:15

But which of those is going to highlight the

16:19

kind of 10,000 foot view of the topic that

16:22

we're discussing, and how vital this

16:25

conversation that we're having really is?

16:27

And then making sure that, right, whether

16:29

it's a keynote or a training, those are sprinkled throughout. So usually it starts

16:33

with an overview of the theory.

16:35

We talk about more examples of that.

16:38

And then we start getting into some of that storytelling. And I think that's one of the

16:43

things that makes people who have the

16:45

academic background so uniquely qualified to

16:48

be thought leaders, because we can back up

16:51

what we're saying with peer reviewed research. We also have a wealth of lived

16:56

experience and stories to share.

16:59

And that scholar survivor experience,

17:03

especially in my field, is someone who's advocating for preventing violence is

17:07

something that's so unique and I think a lot of people forget to tap into.

17:12

Carol Cox: Yes. And I feel like for so many people in

17:14

academia and other and even sciences, it's

17:18

almost like for they've been trained out of

17:20

storytelling and their personal experience

17:23

by going through graduate school and then

17:26

and then into the tenure track seeking

17:29

positions and then into academia. And I it reminds me that last summer we

17:33

worked with some University of California faculty members to help them develop their

17:37

ten minute Ted style talks for an event at

17:40

the University of California was putting on. So these were there were 8 or 9 of them.

17:44

And of course, they and they wanted to present their research and everything from

17:48

how to use concrete and cement in an

17:51

environmentally sustainable way to the

17:54

US-Mexico border to, uh, the history of

17:58

resource extraction in Nigeria. I mean, there was like every, every single

18:02

type of topic you can think of. And of course, they're super excited about

18:06

their research, but they're so close to it because they live and breathe the minutia of

18:10

it every single day. And so but they knew they needed it to be

18:14

accessible to a lay audience, not to other

18:16

people in their specific field. And so what we when we worked with them, we

18:20

said, you have to bring out a personal story

18:23

to make this relatable to your audience.

18:26

So the woman who's an engineer with a

18:28

concrete and cement, she has this great

18:30

story of growing up on a on a farm where she

18:32

convinced her mom to turn it organic because

18:35

she realized the danger that the pesticides

18:37

were having, not only to them, but to the

18:39

horses. Right. Like that story.

18:41

I remember that story, and I remember cement

18:43

and concrete, but I'm not going to remember,

18:45

like, all the details about the engineering

18:47

part. So I'm sure, Laura, with the the

18:50

social scientists that you come across, they

18:52

probably kind of get challenged with the same thing.

18:55

Dr. Laura McGuire: Yes. Exactly. Right. Because especially if you've ever

18:59

defended whether it's a thesis or dissertation, you're so primed for.

19:03

Well, let me point you back to the research.

19:05

Let me point you back to these numbers and

19:08

these tables and the schema that we coded.

19:12

And the general public is like, that's

19:15

lovely. I don't really care.

19:17

I'm not even sure what you're talking about half the time.

19:21

So exactly.

19:23

Blending that with our stories.

19:25

And I think that no matter our subject.

19:29

Right. Like you're using concrete as a great example, whether it's something that, yes, a

19:34

lot of people can understand, like I think my topic many people have concerns about, so

19:39

they're excited to hear someone speak on that or it's something that's even more

19:43

niche, like cement and organic farming.

19:47

Right? People care about people.

19:50

And when we hear someone's story and we

19:54

connect to that and we see ourselves

19:57

reflected in it, or we see someone that is

20:00

encouraging us, that we feel inspired by,

20:04

and then we start to buy into the concepts

20:07

that they're sharing. Right? So building that bridge is something that I

20:12

think we do need to train for more in

20:15

academia. Uh, last summer and now will

20:17

happen again this summer, I'm actually teaching a class for social science majors

20:23

on entrepreneurship, because so many of them

20:26

are not going to get a great paying job

20:28

right after school. They're just not.

20:31

And I fell into that trap myself of

20:33

thinking, oh, you know, I'm abd all but

20:36

dissertation I'll totally get a faculty position. Took five years, I think, to just

20:41

get an adjunct position.

20:44

It's so competitive and hard right now, but

20:46

yet there are so many opportunities.

20:49

And honestly, especially as someone who's a single mom for seven years, a lot of really

20:53

good money in things like corporate training

20:56

and speaking, and the people who are often

20:58

on those stages are regurgitating the research we're doing. Weighing.

21:02

And if we can just learn to explain these

21:04

things in a more digestible way, we can have

21:07

those opportunities to. Carol Cox: Oh, I'm so glad to hear that you are teaching

21:11

them entrepreneurship, that I love that and

21:14

I think, you know, so I'm abd for 22 years.

21:17

So you know I know it's a long story, but

21:22

yeah, I left graduate school with a master's instead of PhD back in 2002.

21:27

Yeah, a very long time ago, because I

21:29

realized at the time that the classmates, a

21:31

year or two ahead of me were struggling to

21:33

get tenure track positions. And Emory is like the top of the R2 schools.

21:38

So it's a good school, but it's not an Ivy

21:40

League. So yes, it's going to be it was much

21:42

more, you know, competitive and harder for us to get into those tenure track positions.

21:47

And I saw that and I was like, well, let me

21:49

make a left turn into tech entrepreneurship,

21:52

right? But it was funny that Emory and the

21:56

alumni network come back to me periodically

21:58

and say, can you talk to people about making

22:01

the transition from academia into

22:03

entrepreneurship because they realize that

22:05

there are a lot of skills we learn that are

22:08

transferable to entrepreneurs. It just looks very different than the career

22:11

path we originally set out on when we were younger.

22:14

Dr. Laura McGuire: Yes, exactly, exactly.

22:17

And I think if schools are going to be a

22:19

good investment for students and they're

22:22

seeing a lot of students leave because they're like, I'm not really seeing the

22:25

return in this. The ROI is looking very

22:28

good. Roi return on investment, but all the

22:33

acronyms, if we can set them up for this

22:37

kind of success for a world and any industry

22:41

that is constantly going to be innovating.

22:43

I think we talked about before we got on the air, I and how that's changing so many

22:47

fields, right? You need to be in a place where you can

22:51

quickly adapt and grow, and whether you work

22:54

for someone and have your own business or

22:57

your own businesses, the whole thing.

22:59

I think people really need to be thinking

23:02

more that way instead of, you know, I'll get

23:05

this job, I'll have it for this many years

23:08

and I'll retire. Um, those avenues are getting smaller and

23:12

smaller. So making sure that people

23:15

understand what does it look like to do this

23:18

and succeed in these spaces, I think is

23:20

really vital. Carol Cox: Yes. And great point about artificial

23:24

intelligence, in that the skills that I feel

23:26

like are going to be needed in the coming years are communication skills and all the

23:32

the humanities and social sciences skills,

23:34

which so many people have decided students

23:38

in the past 20 years decided to go into computer science and Stem, which is great if

23:41

they truly that was their passion and that's what they love. But I feel like humanities

23:44

and social sciences kind of got a short, a

23:47

short shrift in that time. And there's so many valuable things that we

23:50

learn like critical thinking, research

23:53

skills, synthesizing, understanding.

23:56

You know, how, how things relate to each other, how ideas connect with each other,

24:00

and then how to share those with different

24:02

audiences. And so, Laura, let's talk about

24:04

the social science, uh, professors and, you

24:09

know, those who are in academia or academic

24:12

adjacent and how you, you know, if there's

24:16

any of them listening to this conversation right now, how they can start thinking about

24:20

getting into paid speaking engagements and

24:24

doing paid trainings so that they know that

24:27

tenure at a university is not their only

24:29

option, that there are other ways that they

24:32

can use their skills in their degrees. Dr. Laura McGuire: Yes. Okay, so the first thing I want to tell

24:39

any social scientist or any academic who's

24:43

listening is. Publishing in journals is great.

24:47

Being known by your colleagues is fabulous,

24:51

but if you want to move into this space, you

24:53

need to tell the world what you know, and

24:55

you need to make it at a level where you

24:59

could speak to a group of ninth graders.

25:01

I always think that's like a good target audience to think about their reading level

25:06

and their comprehension level. And how do I make that something that people

25:11

are going to be engaged with? So starting with getting you're used to

25:15

writing, think about taking little quotes

25:18

from what you've written and putting that

25:21

into posts and posting that on social media.

25:24

Right. People see that. They want to know more.

25:27

When you see things in your field showing up

25:30

in pop culture in the news, post those

25:34

articles and comment on them. Record a video where you share your

25:38

expertise about them. I think especially where video platforms are

25:42

becoming much more popular. Now we're seeing reels on Instagram and

25:45

TikTok really exploding. We're seeing more academics really own that

25:49

space, and people love it because they're

25:52

like, okay, I don't want to hear just someone who has an opinion, oh, this person

25:56

went to school for this. This is really cool. They're offering stuff that I've never

26:01

seen highlighted before. So take this moment.

26:05

This is an incredible opportunity to move into these spaces.

26:08

Um, then you really need to think about what

26:11

is your brand and how are you going to

26:14

package yourself. Right. You need at least a basic website that

26:18

tells people that you're awesome and that you're available how to contact you.

26:23

Right. And one of the things I teach a lot

26:26

about in this class is really understanding

26:29

what are the market rates for speaking in

26:33

your field? Um, because so many academics

26:36

are also used to being grossly underpaid.

26:38

Um, I was a teacher before I was an

26:40

academic. Right? So like teachers, social

26:43

workers, um, we make so little money that we

26:48

think, well, you know, if I ask for like a few hundred dollars, that that'd be wild.

26:52

That'd be amazing. And then you see, oh, these people with no

26:56

degrees and no experience working in my

26:59

field are commanding thousands and

27:02

thousands, if not tens of thousands of dollars. You can get there, too.

27:06

It's just getting your name out there consistently. So I think a lot of that is

27:12

also learning to deal with the messages

27:16

we've received about we don't do this for the money or we don't really need anything

27:21

for this. Uh, you know, the university settings and k

27:25

12 primes you for that mentality.

27:28

And it's not helpful. What I always tell my students is someone is

27:32

writing that big of a check and giving it to

27:34

someone, it will be you, or it will be

27:37

someone who knows half of what you do.

27:39

Why not put yourself out there and try?

27:43

Carol Cox: Laura, I am so glad that you shared that

27:46

because I could not agree more.

27:48

And I do feel like for so many of us who who

27:51

do we love? What we do, we love speaking, we

27:53

love sharing what we do. And so we kind of, you know, this was

27:57

definitely me early in my career. I feel like, well, I would be here anyways,

28:00

so right I and do I need to get paid for it

28:03

as well. And like you said, yes, because they're going to pay someone and you've put

28:08

in not only all of the education and the

28:11

hard work and everything, but also just the

28:14

creating a fantastic talk, you know, takes

28:18

takes effort, it takes time, it takes

28:21

iteration. And you absolutely should be paid

28:24

accordingly for that. And it reminds me of a podcast episode that

28:29

Brene Brown did before she stopped her

28:31

podcast, which I really wish she would bring

28:34

it back because I really enjoyed listening to it. But she shared that she was doing a

28:38

talk and this was after she had become well

28:40

known, so she had done her viral TEDx talk.

28:43

She had written several books. By this point she was well known.

28:46

She was backstage at an event and she was the

28:48

headliner keynote speaker. They had some other speakers there, but she

28:51

was the headliner. She was backstage, I think, and then another

28:56

speakers agent was there. So not her agent, but someone else who was

28:59

another speaker there said to her, Rene, you

29:03

know. That, like my speaker and the other

29:06

speakers here are getting paid a lot more than you are. I guess because the agent

29:10

knew. And she's like, what?

29:13

Like, what do you mean? They're all getting paid more than me?

29:16

And they said, yeah, like double what?

29:18

You're getting paid. And she had thought before that conversation

29:22

kind of like, you know, again, she's in academia. That's where her background like,

29:25

oh, like I'm getting paid this much to come

29:28

do a show. She thought she was well compensated already.

29:31

Then she finds this out. So she goes to her own agent after that and

29:35

says, basically double my fee. Um, but she would have had no idea because

29:41

people don't talk about it. They don't talk about what they're getting

29:44

paid or what you should get paid. And that's why I want to make sure we're

29:47

having this conversation. Dr. Laura McGuire: Yes. No.

29:50

Exactly. And I also want to put the caveat,

29:53

because I think sometimes we say, you know, we got to ask for more. We got to ask for

29:57

more for people who come from any kind of

30:01

marginalized community. It's partially knowing that you can ask for

30:06

more and what you can ask for. And I think we need to talk to speakers who

30:10

are in a more privileged place and say, tell

30:13

me what I can be asking for that you think

30:15

is just, you know, run of the mill has to be

30:18

expected. But also we have to address that a

30:22

lot of the people who are booking these spaces and writing these checks will push

30:26

back. Yes, against women, against people of

30:29

color, against queer folks, where they won't

30:32

push back against a white, male, cisgender

30:35

person. You know, they come to them and they say, I need this much money.

30:38

And these many, you know, things that make

30:40

me feel comfortable and well compensated.

30:44

And I'm like, sure, of course you've got it.

30:46

And marginalized people come forward and

30:49

say, I think I deserve the same. Well, I don't know.

30:53

So there's two sides to it, right?

30:56

We're working in systems that are actively

30:58

pushing back against us, getting to a place

31:01

of equality. And at the same time, we have

31:05

to keep pushing, right? We can't just sit back and accept that, um,

31:10

there's no way it's going to change long term if we don't collectively do this

31:14

together. Carol Cox: Oh, Laura, I am so glad you mentioned that.

31:16

And you are absolutely right, because these

31:20

organizations, they probably would have

31:22

offered the male speaker more off the bat

31:26

than a woman speaker or, like you said, LGBTQ or some or some other marginalized

31:30

community person. And then. Right.

31:33

And then when we push back, we seem pushy or

31:37

aggressive or what have you in their minds,

31:40

in their own minds. And so I wonder, you know, the first thought

31:43

that I have is it's great if you have a speaker agent to do that negotiation on your

31:48

behalf, because then kind of takes you out

31:50

of it. It feels less personal, right? They're kind of like that, that that third

31:54

party intermediary. But obviously not all of us have a speaker

31:57

agent. Most of us don't because we're not Brené Brown or at that level.

32:01

I don't know if, like an executive assistant

32:04

could play that role or if there's, you

32:07

know, someone that you could kind of, you

32:09

know, within your, your business kind of I'm

32:11

thinking, you know, for us and for listeners

32:13

kind of task with that being that

32:16

intermediary, like, you could still read the

32:18

emails and like help your EA, you know, how

32:21

to respond, but then you're kind of distancing yourself a little bit from the

32:25

negotiation. And what do you think about that, Laura? And any other suggestions that

32:28

you have? Dr. Laura McGuire: Yeah, it's interesting you bring that up.

32:31

I mean, I've tried a little bit of that. I just haven't found kind of the right

32:35

person. So I don't know if someone's listening to this and they're like, I'm the

32:38

right person, right? Talk to me. Yes. Because yeah, I think a lot of speakers

32:42

do need to get to that place. And even as business owners, if you aren't

32:46

someone who wants to be on front of stages, whatever your product is that you're

32:50

selling, I think there's a great strength in

32:53

having somebody else be your sales and

32:55

marketing person, because you are packaging

32:59

your soul essentially, right?

33:01

There is so much emotion with this.

33:03

When people say no or it's too expensive or

33:06

they don't like something about it, it is a

33:10

direct attack. I mean, you can say it's not, but that is going to be how it feels.

33:15

So if there's somebody else who says, you

33:17

know what, this isn't my heart and soul.

33:19

This didn't come from my mind and my years

33:22

of experience. So I can go out there and I can deal with

33:26

the pushback. I can deal with the negativity

33:28

and find the right market for you. That's awesome.

33:31

And if you're not at that place yet, or

33:35

again, you haven't found the right person to really fit that.

33:38

I think it is continuing to see what other

33:42

people are getting and reminding yourself,

33:44

even if there's pushback, even if someone says no, you're not imagining that this is

33:50

what you're worth and standing firm in that

33:52

foundation. Carol Cox: Mhm. Yes.

33:55

Yeah that's a yeah. It is hard. It's hard being an entrepreneur.

33:57

It's hard being a speaker or whomever you

34:00

know putting yourself out there and you know

34:02

facing the potential and real rejections

34:06

that come. I will say that the more you put

34:09

yourself out there and the more sales conversations you have, the easier it does

34:13

get. You know, like sometimes I'll talk to women. Not everyone signs up.

34:17

That's just the nature of business. And there are some of them where I feel

34:21

like, oh my gosh, like, she would be so

34:23

perfect. Like, you know, I love her energy

34:25

and I love the work that she does. And it's just not a right fit or a right fit

34:28

at the time. For her, it reminds me there's

34:31

a book that I recently read called Self from love. It's actually really, really good and

34:35

kind of changes your mindset around thinking

34:39

about selling again, selling your speaking,

34:42

or selling in your business. I'll put a link in the show notes.

34:44

It's called sell from love. I forget the author's name, but she does a really good

34:48

job of helping you, kind of thinking

34:50

through, kind of like, you know, you're

34:55

having these conversations with potential clients and ultimately you want to serve

34:59

what's best for them. And I know that that's what I want to do.

35:02

I know Laura, that's. You want to do in your business as well. So it's almost like you

35:06

become that kind of collaborative partner

35:09

for them to figure out what is best for

35:11

them. Maybe it is our services, but maybe

35:13

it's not. Or maybe it's not right now.

35:15

Right. So you're kind of having a little bit of detachment from the the outcome, like the

35:21

sales transaction outcome. And instead of looking at it as this

35:25

collaborative, this collaboration with that

35:27

person. So I'm like, okay, that helps. That helps. Yeah, no.

35:31

Dr. Laura McGuire: I do I like that and I think.

35:35

Right, considering am I the best fit?

35:38

And also and this is really hard.

35:40

So I say this with humility. Not saying it's easy, but accepting that you

35:46

actually don't want to work with everybody. Some people are not going to be good for

35:51

you, and you are going to be miserable if

35:54

things move forward with them. So having the courage to be able to say, I

36:00

don't want every single opportunity, I want

36:04

the right ones at the right time for me.

36:07

Carol Cox: Yes. And that goes with speaking engagements too. There could be a speaking engagement

36:10

comes along and maybe it's a good fee and

36:13

you're like, wow, that sounds great. But then you learn a little bit more about

36:16

the event or the audience and you kind of realize, oh, like, that's just is not going

36:21

to light me up like that type of event or

36:23

audience or the topic they want me to speak on, whatever it happens to be.

36:27

This doesn't this doesn't fulfill me in the

36:29

same way. So then you have to decide, like,

36:31

is is it worth taking that?

36:33

And then you foreclose other opportunities

36:36

on that in that period of time because you're only one person, right?

36:39

You only be in one place at one time. Or do you do you let that go and in, you

36:45

know, the hopes that something else comes along that is a better fit?

36:49

Dr. Laura McGuire: Yes, exactly.

36:51

And I think another thing in that too, is

36:54

talking about the fees. One thing that I've really learned is

36:57

prioritizing, really focusing on the bigger

37:02

fee, higher pay opportunities, instead of a

37:06

lot of smaller fee opportunities.

37:09

And people come at this from different angles, right? Some people really want to

37:12

saturate the market and they want to be everywhere. And someone turns around like,

37:16

there they are, there they are. And that's great. That's their approach.

37:20

But again, especially as parents, I know

37:23

that being home with my children is a really

37:25

important thing to me. And so being able to make what I would have

37:30

made, doing maybe 20 engagements in two

37:34

engagements, um, is, is really important.

37:37

So I think that's always something to consider too. Do you want to be everywhere?

37:42

And that is one approach and it's great.

37:44

Or would you rather be a few places and have

37:49

your time for other things as well?

37:52

Carol Cox: Um, yes. Excellent. Excellent point.

37:54

Laura, I just something just popped in my mind about ways that we can negotiate our

37:59

speaker fees. So speaking of I, we could

38:02

have at some point an AI bot.

38:04

And this is coming whether we want it or

38:06

not. So basically we're getting to the point where emails, exchanges that we have with

38:10

other people, the AIS will be writing to each other anyways because, you know, like

38:14

Microsoft Outlook is going to be doing that. And Gmail on certain at some point will be

38:18

able to respond automatically. So then we can just have the AIS negotiate.

38:23

Dr. Laura McGuire: That would be amazing. I would love yes, an AI assistant, just go

38:27

find my work for me, negotiate the contracts

38:30

and just tell me where to show up. That would be awesome.

38:34

Carol Cox: And you know what? It is going to happen.

38:36

It is. All right.

38:38

Laura. So as I said at the intro, we both

38:41

live in the state of Florida and our current

38:43

governor is definitely, uh, on has been on a

38:47

warpath with, with the all of the bills and

38:51

legislation that he has been promoting and

38:53

that they have been passing here in Florida over the past couple of years.

38:57

Everything from wanting I, I'm, I'm a little

39:00

bit fuzzy on the details of what actually got passed and not so you may if you if you

39:04

know then please let me please correct me.

39:07

But like not allowing gender studies at

39:11

universities, uh, you know, I know that the

39:13

African American AP class, they did disallow

39:18

that. And I think the AP company made some

39:21

changes. I don't know if is it allowed again. But obviously all these things about

39:24

not being able to talk about gender identity

39:26

in schools, I mean, just a whole rash of

39:28

things, which, you know, for me, as a

39:31

University of Florida bachelor's degree

39:33

holder, I feel like it cheapens the degree

39:37

that I have here in Florida, even though I got this degree way back in the 1990s.

39:41

But I'm like, really? Like that is not the

39:43

the quality of education that I got. That is not the quality of education that I

39:46

expect from our Florida university system.

39:49

So, Laura, your thoughts. Dr. Laura McGuire: Are this could be a podcast, right?

39:54

Right. Succinctly my thoughts I am eternally

40:00

amazed that I was a teacher in Florida over

40:06

a decade ago, and things are so much worse

40:11

now. And actually I will include a story on

40:15

here. And if anyone watches the video they can see this. So I have this flag and it's a

40:23

pride flag, and it's from one of my students

40:25

when I taught, uh, high school in Florida.

40:28

And you can see the edges of it are torn up.

40:32

And that's because the student came in and

40:36

said, I want to give you this flag to have

40:39

in our classroom because this is a space

40:42

that is about inclusion. I feel safe in.

40:44

And the student was an ally. They weren't LGBTQ themselves, but.

40:48

They wanted this flag up in their room, and

40:52

every night their stepfather would get very

40:56

drunk and he would come in their room and he

40:58

would tear it down. And they said, in your classroom, this flag

41:03

will be safe. And I have brought it with me

41:05

to every place that I have worked since

41:08

then. And it's in my office to this day to

41:12

know that in 2024, I couldn't do what I did

41:18

all those years ago for this student and

41:21

their peers is heartbreaking beyond

41:25

quantification, right? There's no way to really express how

41:29

shocking that is. Um, as someone who debated coming out at that

41:33

time and felt supported in doing so now

41:37

knowing that I would have lost my job, I the

41:42

way I try to spin it for myself is the

41:45

positive is it's job security.

41:47

It means that the world needs the work that

41:49

I do and you do, and so many people do.

41:52

Um, the need is not going to go away, but it

41:55

is also something I think we really have to

41:57

sit in the magnitude of and grieve because

42:00

it is hard. But especially as a queer and non-binary

42:04

person, every time I think about leaving the

42:07

South. I'm from the mountains of Tennessee

42:09

and have lived in the South most of my life.

42:12

I always think, you know, there's going to

42:14

be the next queer kid born somewhere in

42:18

Appalachia or in Florida. And if all of the adults who are supportive

42:23

and safe leave, then who is going to be

42:27

there for them? So I will probably always

42:29

remain in the South where I know I'm needed.

42:32

Carol Cox: Oh well, Laura, thank you so much for sharing that really beautiful story, and it is

42:36

heartbreaking to see what is happening.

42:39

And I, I like to be an optimist.

42:41

I kind of I'm an optimist by nature and I

42:43

and I really feel like the pendulum will

42:46

swing back at least more towards the other

42:49

side, because it has swung way too far now

42:52

with what has been going on. Dr. Laura McGuire: Exactly.

42:55

Carol Cox: Yes. Well, Laura, thank you so much for this

42:58

kind of enlightening conversation. We covered so much.

43:01

I'm sure the listeners have learned a lot. What is the best place for them to connect

43:05

with you? Dr. Laura McGuire: Yeah, you can go to my website.

43:08

Doctor. Dr.. Laura. Laura McGuire.

43:11

Macguire. Com.

43:14

Carol Cox: Fantastic. I will make sure to include a link to Laura's website and her LinkedIn profile

43:18

in the show notes. You can also check out the video where so that you can see us and

43:23

heard the flag that she showed. And thank you so much for doing that.

43:26

Laura. It's a pleasure having you on the

43:28

Speaking Your Brand podcast. Thank you so much for the very important

43:30

work that you're doing. Dr. Laura McGuire: Thank you so much for teaching me how to be

43:34

in this space and make a wonderful living,

43:37

and the work that you do. Carol Cox: Thanks again to Laura for coming on the

43:40

podcast and sharing her insights with us.

43:42

We're continuing our series all around inspiring you to use your voice.