0:01

Welcome to Stuff you missed in History

0:03

class from how Stuff Works dot Com.

0:12

Hello, and welcome to our podcast kind Tracy

0:15

B. Wilson. Uh And

0:17

when people talk about this subject of today's

0:19

podcast, he's also described as

0:22

a genius but also uh, something

0:24

of a rather caustic figure. And

0:26

while he had insights that even today

0:29

thinking about sort of how he came to

0:31

his conclusions their downright

0:33

baffling. But he also had a reputation

0:36

for being pretty arrogant and rubbing his

0:38

colleagues the wrong way, which is commonly cited

0:40

as having been pretty detrimental to his

0:43

career. And this sort of his proper place

0:45

in astrophysics history. So we're

0:47

going to talk today about the father of dark matter,

0:49

who was Dr Fritz Wicky.

0:52

I'm actually kind

0:54

of amazed that I did not realize

0:56

how early he was working,

1:00

right somehow, Yeah,

1:02

somehow I thought dark matter was much more recent

1:05

than this. Well, the big

1:07

confirmation was much more recent. We talk

1:09

about a little bit, but he was onto

1:12

it way before anybody else was, right,

1:14

So to go ahead and start blowing your mind right

1:16

from the beginning. Fritz was born

1:18

in Varna, Bulgaria, on February

1:21

eight His

1:23

father was a Swiss merchant and his mother was

1:25

Czechoslovakian, and

1:28

when he was just six, his father, thinking

1:30

that he would surely go into the family

1:32

business. Uh. He was sent to live with his

1:34

grandparents in Glaris, Switzerland, and

1:37

the plan was that he would study commerce

1:39

while he was there and learn about business. But

1:42

he did have a head for numbers, but it turned out

1:44

that that interest fell into the areas of

1:46

physics and non financial mathematics

1:48

are really not similar at all in

1:50

their path. In

1:53

nineteen sixteen, he enrolled in Einstein's

1:56

alma mater, the Zurich Polytechnic

1:58

Institute, to study for six and

2:01

in five after he had

2:03

graduated. Uh. And he's said

2:06

to have been, you know, very adoring of his

2:08

his professors that he thought were genius is

2:11

Uh. He ended up getting a

2:13

grant of an international fellowship from

2:15

the Rockefeller Foundation and he used

2:17

the money to travel to California

2:19

so he could work for Robert Milliken as

2:22

first and assistant professor and then a professor

2:24

of theoretical physics at the California

2:26

Institute of Technology, which you would know as

2:28

cal Tech. Uh. It's in Pasadena,

2:30

California. And at this point

2:33

some of the most exciting astronomical

2:35

discoveries of the modern age were happening

2:37

at cal Tech. The nineteen twenties were just a huge

2:39

time for them. So, for example, through

2:42

the lenses of the Hooker Telescope, Edwin

2:44

Hubble was making important observations

2:46

about the vast array of galaxies and space

2:49

in the expanding universe. And

2:51

through a couple of large grants, including

2:53

one from the Rockefeller Foundation, cal

2:55

Tech was building, you know, really advanced

2:58

instruments and basically developing facilities

3:00

to remain on the front line of research in

3:03

astronomy. So he

3:06

had gone to what really seemed like a mecca

3:08

for astronomers. But Fritz was a physicist.

3:11

Uh, the two worlds

3:13

do have a lot of crossover,

3:15

though, and he was excited by both of

3:17

the disciplines, and so he thought that

3:20

the only course for him was to teach

3:22

both courses, and that's how he became

3:24

the first astrophysicist at cal

3:26

Tech. And while

3:28

he was at cal Tech, he also met a

3:31

man named Walter Bada who was a German

3:33

American observational astronomer, and

3:35

the two began collaborating, and some

3:37

of that collaboration would become very important. Fritz

3:40

Wicky came up with many many theories

3:43

about astrophysics during his career.

3:45

His research and his theories were both just

3:47

incredibly advanced. So,

3:50

for example, Uh, in ninety

3:53

three's Wicky put forth his theory

3:55

that there is in fact a huge amount of

3:57

unseen matter in any given galaxy.

3:59

This is a completely new idea. Everyone thought

4:01

that what you could see were the stars and that that's

4:04

what was out there. Uh.

4:06

But this idea was based on his observations

4:08

of the Coma galaxy cluster, and

4:10

based on the visible matter that was in the cluster

4:13

and how it was behaving. He concluded that

4:15

there simply was not enough of it if

4:18

we only counted the visible pieces to

4:22

provide enough gravity to keep these fast

4:24

moving galaxies together, and that there had

4:26

to be something else in the mix producing

4:29

enough gravity that kept this cluster from

4:31

flinging apart. That invisible

4:34

substance was what he called dark matter, and

4:36

he published this theory in Helvitica

4:38

Physica Acta. In his own

4:40

words, quote, in order to receive an average

4:43

Doppler effect of a thousand kilometers

4:45

the second or more, which is what

4:47

we have observed, the average

4:50

density in the Comma system would have to

4:52

be at least four hundred times

4:54

greater than that of visible matter.

4:57

If this can be shown to be the case, then

4:59

it would have the surprising result that dark

5:02

matter is present in the universe

5:04

and far greater density than

5:06

visible matter. I

5:09

feel compelled to say again, yeah,

5:13

this is he was. He was drawing these

5:15

conclusions away before anybody else

5:17

was thinking about them. It's possibly because I

5:19

didn't really learn about dark matter

5:21

until studying astronomy

5:24

in college that

5:26

in my brain this was a much more recent

5:29

theory than it really was. Well,

5:31

there are also some other reasons, which is that a lot

5:33

of people dismissed him as kind of cockamami.

5:36

And we'll get to why as we go on.

5:39

Uh. But in addition to this work on dark

5:41

matter, and building on the work of Indian

5:43

physicist Subrahmayan Shandrasakar,

5:46

who later became famous for his mathematical

5:48

work related to black holes, Zwiki

5:51

and Bada, working together, described

5:53

a neutron star. So this is a

5:55

collapsed core of a star with an

5:57

incredibly dense mass. For

6:00

sample, According to the National Geographic Online

6:02

entry on neutron stars, a sugar

6:04

cube sized chunk of neutron star

6:07

is estimated to weigh roughly one million

6:10

tons here on planet Earth, so

6:12

that's how dense it is. For scientific

6:15

context, the neutron had only been

6:17

discovered a year prior, so quick

6:19

review just in case you need it. Positively

6:22

charged protons and neutral neutron

6:24

neutrons make up the nucleus of an

6:26

atom, while negatively charged electrons

6:29

form an orbital cloud around the nucleus.

6:33

Yes, so we only knew what neutrons were

6:35

for a little while before Zwicky was

6:38

to what his colleagues felt like jumping to

6:40

the conclusion that neutron

6:43

stars were, in fact, you know,

6:45

sort of a larger scale

6:47

version of some of the things they had witnessed at the atomic

6:50

scale. But really he was just

6:52

intuiting some pretty impressive things,

6:54

uh. And he proposed that as a star burns

6:56

out its fuel, it's gravity

6:59

is so right that it causes a compression

7:01

of such magnitude at the

7:03

core that protons and electrons are

7:05

crushed together to form neutrons. So

7:08

if you think about particle physics, it's very similar,

7:10

just on a much bigger scale. It's

7:13

also set the groundwork for his Wicki and Bada's description

7:15

of a supernova as a star

7:17

core implodes, that propels this massive

7:20

explosion of the stars outer layers.

7:23

Such explosions, they theorized,

7:25

were also sources of cosmic rays,

7:28

or high energy sub atomic particles

7:30

that travel through space at a velocity

7:33

that approaches the speed of light. Yeah,

7:36

cosmic rays had been observed before, but

7:38

no one knew where they came from, and Swiki

7:40

and Boada felt like this was where they came from.

7:43

The pair first presented these theories at

7:45

a conference of other scientists

7:48

UH in three and as subsequently

7:50

they published them as a paper in ninety four,

7:53

and that paper about neutron stars,

7:55

cosmic rays, UH and supernova

7:58

has really been described as press and incredibly

8:01

important to both physics and astronomy.

8:04

In the mid nineteen thirties, certain

8:06

that supernovas and other galaxies

8:08

were something that we could observe, Zwicki

8:11

convinced the director of the Mount

8:13

Wilson Observatory to build a special

8:15

telescope with a wide field of view

8:18

so that he could observe and photograph multiple

8:20

galaxies at the same time. That

8:23

telescope enabled him to identify

8:25

twelve supernovas over the course

8:27

of three years and That

8:29

work also gave him really firm ground

8:31

to stand on when he went back and asked for an

8:33

even bigger Schmidt telescope, and that

8:36

request was granted. Uh The

8:38

forty eight into telescope that was built after

8:41

this second request was installed at Mount Palomar,

8:44

and surveys of the northern sky conducted

8:46

with it laid the groundwork for decades

8:48

of astronomical study. As

8:50

thetes stretched on, Zwicky

8:52

developed a theory of gravitational

8:54

lenses, and it was based on Einstein's

8:57

theory of general relativity. This

8:59

theory was that you had a galaxy in

9:01

your line of sight, that galaxy

9:03

could distort the image of more distant

9:06

galaxies by bending their starlight.

9:09

He asserted that by measuring the distortion

9:11

that a galaxy caused could

9:13

then give astronomers a sense of

9:15

the weight of the lensing galaxy.

9:18

Yeah, which is again, this is in the

9:20

thirties. This was a lot of extremely um

9:23

It almost seems like a leap of faith to people

9:25

that that might not understand his line of

9:27

logic well. And the idea

9:30

that the gravity of something could distort

9:32

the light of something behind it is now kind

9:34

of taken for granted. In the in

9:37

the field. I mean, it had been discussed

9:39

to some degree prior to that, but he

9:42

was the first one that was like, no, this is happening on

9:44

a mammoth scale. It's affecting

9:46

everything we observe. Uh.

9:48

And while giving the Oxford University Halley

9:50

Lecture in ninety eight, which is

9:53

an annual lecture that is quite an honor

9:55

to give, Zwicky spoke at length

9:57

about what he called morphology, which is

9:59

a systematic approach to studying the structure

10:01

and form of scientific and technological

10:04

topics by analyzing all possible

10:06

parameters and solutions to any given

10:08

related question. And this is one

10:10

of those things that he really

10:13

felt like he had been doing all of his life, even

10:15

before he had a name for it.

10:18

Uh. And he was founder and president of the Society

10:20

for Morphological Research, and in

10:22

later life he wrote of morphology quote,

10:25

I feel that I have finally found the philosopher's

10:28

stone in what I call the morphological outlook

10:30

and method. So he basically was

10:32

trying to explain, like, I know what I'm doing, I've

10:34

always been doing it. This is why I'm able to

10:36

come to conclusions that other people don't see.

10:39

I'm just so systematic and how I approach

10:41

every possible issue

10:43

that I look at that I'm going to eventually hit

10:45

on the right thing. Uh.

10:48

It's an interesting approach and it is it's

10:50

very methodical. It makes a lot of sense

10:52

when you read about it. It It kind of forming

10:55

this matrix of possible outcomes

10:57

and options for every possible variable

11:00

in a situation. It's

11:02

a lot of work, but it also does sort of

11:04

create this beautiful order and structure to

11:06

what may have been completely incomprehensible

11:08

before. Before we get

11:10

to sort of the problems with all

11:13

of these amazing theories

11:15

he had being accepted

11:17

by his peers. Do you want to take a quick word from a

11:19

sponsor. So, despite

11:23

his incredibly advanced insights

11:25

into astrophysics, many of the assertions

11:27

that Zwicky made in his career really just

11:30

hit a brick wall with his colleagues. He

11:32

had this incredible neck for finding

11:35

conflict with the scientific community,

11:37

and um,

11:40

this basically is really attributed to his

11:42

personality rather than his ideas. Even

11:44

though his ideas were very advanced and hard for

11:46

people to deal with, his

11:49

way of presenting them and sort of dismissing

11:51

people that didn't get them is

11:53

really why he probably had so many

11:55

problems kind of gaining ground

11:57

with um with his work.

12:00

Okay, almost any

12:02

and every synonym for person kitty

12:04

has been used to describe Wiki at some

12:06

point in time. He's often characterized

12:09

as being just incredibly arrogant

12:11

and dismissive of other people. And

12:13

he even fought with Boda, who was his

12:16

real collaborator. According

12:18

to astronomer and Bruce medallist Jesse

12:20

Greenstein's Wicky called Bota

12:23

a Nazi at one point during World

12:25

War Two, and Bota was infuriated

12:28

but also afraid of Wicky. Yeah,

12:31

apparently from that point on, having

12:33

the two men in a room together was not really a viable

12:36

option ever, because they would not

12:38

just bicker, but it would become extremely heated

12:41

and very very passionate and angry in

12:43

a hurry. While

12:45

there are many many instances of

12:47

people saying that Wiki could be a pill,

12:49

and that is a very gentle way to put it, his

12:53

own feelings about others in his field

12:55

are made incredibly clear in his own

12:57

writing. It's not a case of like these

13:00

people are all saying he was crabby.

13:02

He It's it's in writing he was.

13:04

He said some pretty unkind things

13:07

Uh, the introduction to his catalog of

13:09

selected compact galaxies and of

13:11

post eruptive Galaxies, which

13:13

came out in nineteen seventy one, is

13:15

basically full of criticism

13:18

of his peers, and he calls them out by name.

13:21

It's really really bitter in

13:24

its tone, and it's full of all

13:26

kinds of snark like quote again and

13:28

again, scientists and technical specialists

13:31

arrive at stagnation points where they

13:33

think they know it all, and

13:36

he did underline that in the text.

13:38

Another was the naivety of some

13:41

of the theoreticians at all times is

13:43

really appalling. Another

13:45

is, the most renowned observational

13:47

astronomers in the nineteen thirties also

13:50

made claims that now have been proved to

13:52

be completely erroneous.

13:54

This reshearted real progress in

13:56

astronomy by several decades

13:58

since the said observer has had a monopoly

14:01

on the use of the large reflectors of the Mount

14:03

Wilson and Palmer observatories, and

14:05

inasmuch as they kept out all dissenters

14:09

and then Uh, this gym.

14:12

Today's sycophants and plain thieves

14:14

seem to be free in American astronomy,

14:16

in particular to appropriate

14:18

discoveries and inventions made by

14:20

lone wolves and nonconformists,

14:23

for whom there is never any appeal to the hierarchies,

14:26

and for whom even the public press is closed

14:28

because of censoring committees within the scientific

14:31

institutions. He makes it a

14:33

point to clarify that he's

14:35

the only person to have clearly

14:37

stated what a galaxy is, refers

14:40

to some scientists at Scatter Brains,

14:43

and even calls out Hubble, Body and

14:45

contemporary Henry Norris Russell and

14:48

others with very specific criticisms

14:50

of the ways their incorrect assertions

14:53

set back the study of astrophysics.

14:56

Yeah, he really does not hold back. It's

14:59

it's very clear that at that late

15:01

point in his life, he was in his seventies

15:04

at the time, he was still just super angry

15:06

at how he had been treated. Uh,

15:09

And it's kind of funny. He includes

15:12

in the text of this introduction a

15:14

letter which was written by Edwin Hubble to

15:16

the Scientific Monthly, which

15:18

had run a piece about

15:21

some of the work that Zwicky and Bada

15:23

had done together, and in it,

15:25

Hubble points out to the publication that an

15:27

error that they made about attributing

15:29

to Dwarf Nebula to Bada instead

15:31

of Wicky and Fritz,

15:34

you know, includes all of this and his

15:36

thing about this Edward Edwin

15:38

Hubble trying to correct this error, and then

15:41

he points out that in his opinion, this is a

15:43

completely rare instance of gentlemanly behavior

15:45

in the field of astronomy, and that he's sort

15:47

of it's the exception rather than the rule

15:50

in his opinion. With all this in mind,

15:52

it just becomes really easy to dismiss

15:54

this guy as a cranky curmudgeon when

15:56

reading this rather infamous

15:58

introduction. But it's also clear

16:00

that his bitterness and anger came from years

16:03

of having his work dismissed, even

16:05

when the same work was clearly being

16:07

verified and even used by other

16:09

researchers. Yeah,

16:12

I can see where you would land at this sort of very

16:14

crabby mindset. You

16:16

know, if you're saying, hey, I think this thing is happening,

16:18

and people go, oh, you are a crazy idiot, and

16:20

they're scribbling the notes down and then using them in their

16:22

own work. Belled crazy idiot

16:25

is no fun. I

16:27

would be bitter as well, I think.

16:30

And as it turns out, most of Swiki's

16:32

predictions and theories, which he arrived

16:34

at through what he called directed intuition,

16:37

which is kind of part of that bigger morphology

16:39

idea. We're absolutely

16:41

correct. While the theoretical

16:44

existence of neutron stars was validated

16:47

by UH work in nuclear

16:49

physics before then, the first

16:51

neutron stars were actually identified in

16:53

Swiki's lifetime in the nineteen sixties.

16:55

He died suddenly on February

16:58

eighth, nine four at the age

17:00

of seventy five. But during the nineteen

17:02

seventies and beyond, astronomers were conducting

17:04

research and making discoveries that continued

17:07

to validate what he had been saying during

17:09

his life. In the nineteen seventies,

17:12

Vera Reuben, W. K Ford and other

17:14

astronomers were able to verify the

17:16

idea of dark matter. That

17:18

is why you think of it as being a much

17:21

later discovery. Vera

17:23

Reuben is mostly associated with dark

17:25

matter UH, and

17:27

it really was in the seventies, kind of like

17:29

the big announcement was always attributed

17:32

to these people. So I think that's

17:34

probably why you think it is a more recent thing than

17:36

it was. And then in nineteen seventy

17:38

nine, so five years after WIKI

17:40

had passed the first gravitational

17:43

lens UH and and proof

17:46

that it was actually working the way he had

17:48

described was discovered, and uh,

17:51

the lensing effects. The lensing effect

17:53

as Weiki described it in ninety seven

17:56

is actually now applied to measure

17:58

the universe and its contents with regularity.

18:00

They're sort of always exploring the parameters

18:02

of the universe using uh,

18:05

the very concepts of gravitational lens

18:07

that he set forth in the

18:09

late thirties. Fritz Wicky's

18:12

youngest daughter, Barbarina, has become

18:14

his advocate. She's really tirelessly

18:16

written letters to science publications,

18:18

bloggers, journals, and news outlets, pointing

18:21

out that her father was very far ahead

18:24

of his his peers in space

18:26

research and in his theories. Yeah,

18:28

she really wants to ensure that he gets his

18:30

due in the historical record. And

18:33

to one magazine she wrote, quote,

18:35

Fritz Wicky revealed a genesis of astounding

18:37

cosmological achievements that still illuminate

18:40

the scientific world. He was a scientific

18:43

prophet and the sacrificial lamb for the provincial

18:45

judgment of his colleagues. His

18:47

emendation of intellect with such apodictic

18:50

truth and his presages

18:52

were of such advance that the standard

18:54

mind only could falter in their presence.

18:57

And while he definitely had some rough

18:59

edges. Zwicky also had a really generous

19:02

streak. When World War Two ended,

19:04

he organized the Committee for Aid to

19:06

War Stricken Scientific Libraries,

19:09

and this group, which consisted of Wicky himself

19:11

and a handful of volunteers, amassed

19:14

literally tons of scientific

19:16

literature and donated it to libraries

19:18

that had been damaged during the war. Zwicky

19:22

devoted his weekends and spare weekday

19:24

hours to this project for years, and

19:26

he packaged and shipped the materials himself.

19:30

Yeah. I read one source that said that it

19:32

was approximated to be fifteen

19:34

tons of materials that he had eventually

19:36

shipped over the years, but I couldn't

19:38

find that validated. Uh. And In

19:41

an obituary article about Zwicky, Albert

19:43

G. Wilson, director of the Society

19:45

for Morphological Research, wrote, Zwicky's

19:48

point was that there are enough men and women of goodwill

19:50

to make such projects a success if only

19:53

they are pushed with determination. Availability

19:56

of funds is not a prerequisite.

19:58

He felt that such projects as the book distribution

20:00

do more for establishing ties of confidence

20:03

between different nations and races

20:05

that can be achieved by speechmaking, legislation,

20:08

or high sounding efforts of international

20:10

cooperation. He also

20:12

served as director of the American chapter

20:14

of Pestelasi Foundation, which was founded

20:17

to foster World War Two orphans. And

20:20

whilst Wiki had conflict with his professional

20:22

peers, the students and staff

20:24

at cal Tech really did see a much more affable

20:27

side of the man, though he could certainly be

20:29

a demanding teacher and mentor. Uh

20:32

and we have a funny story about that. The

20:34

February nineteen seventy four issue

20:36

of the cal Tech publication Engineering

20:38

and Science featured an investigation

20:41

into a rumor that students had once

20:43

managed to pull one over on him

20:45

by creating a fictitious student.

20:48

According to this legend, in the nineteen thirty

20:51

one ninety two academic year, a

20:53

group of grad students allegedly worked

20:55

together under the false identity of

20:57

an undergrad and an effort to achieve the

21:00

impossible, which was to make an

21:02

a in a course that's WICKI taught.

21:05

While the surviving students of that year all

21:07

insisted the story was true, the

21:09

publication never got swicky side of the story

21:12

due to his sudden death during the writing

21:14

of the article. I

21:16

find that to be such a great pity, because I really

21:18

would have loved to have here heard his side

21:21

of bits. I love that they just

21:23

wanted to like make him give someone an

21:25

a even though he

21:27

I think never intended to do

21:29

so. I just love that that's a fun

21:32

that somebody tried to trick him or a group of

21:34

people, But it sounds like it was all

21:36

in a very kind of good natured sort of way,

21:38

which I love. Um So.

21:41

In his lifetime, Fritz Wicky authored literally

21:43

hundreds of articles, numerous books.

21:45

He held dozens of patents. He

21:47

was awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom

21:50

for his work in rocket propulsion during World

21:52

War Two. The Royal Astronomical

21:54

Society of Great Britain gave him their society's

21:56

Gold Medal, and he's

21:59

credited with discovery a hundred and twenty

22:01

two supernovas during his work. That number

22:03

is a record, yeah,

22:06

unbroken. He still holds it. Uh.

22:08

He is buried in Glara, Switzerland, where

22:10

there is also his wiki museum displaying

22:13

some of his papers and scientific work.

22:16

There are an asteroid, a lunar

22:18

crater in a galaxy named after him,

22:21

and kermudgeon er No. He was undoubtedly

22:23

a visionary. He intuited cosmic

22:26

truths that many others in his field simply could

22:28

not grasp at the time he introduced him.

22:31

He introduced them so so

22:33

to me, such a fascinating figure, and

22:35

I just I have a love for him.

22:37

I like all the cranky ones. Those tend to be my

22:39

favorites for some parties. Do

22:43

you also have some listener mail?

22:47

It's not cranky at all, It's actually interesting

22:49

and it's something we get a lot of. Uh.

22:52

And it is from our listener autumn, And she says,

22:54

Hello, Holly and Tracy. I am a frequent listener

22:56

of your podcast. I enjoy you both

22:58

his podcast personality, and what I particularly

23:01

commend is the evidence of your thorough

23:03

and reliable research my side,

23:05

we certainly try. Uh. This spring,

23:07

I would be graduating from university with a degree

23:09

in theater and miners in TV Cinema

23:11

and psychology. With a wide range

23:13

of hobbies and interests. I am still a bit lost

23:15

on the career finding area. What I would

23:17

like to know about, if you'd be willing to share, are your

23:20

journeys, How did you come to how stuff works? Where

23:22

did you begin? And what we're slash are

23:24

the passions that brought you to where you are and the people

23:26

you've become. Uh,

23:28

this is a question we get a lot is kind

23:30

of how we ended up doing this, and

23:33

for both of us, I think the answer is that it was quite

23:35

a circuitous route. UM.

23:39

I have had a million different jobs

23:41

and multiple careers. I've managed hair salons,

23:44

I UM worked in a library

23:46

for more than a decade as a technical services

23:49

assistant and UM acquisitions

23:52

manager for lack of a better title. UM.

23:55

I worked in marketing for

23:58

an online company. I worked as

24:00

both an admin assistant and then a writer at a

24:02

network for a while, and then

24:04

I ended up here UM

24:07

and I got hired as an editor, and Tracy and I

24:10

UM started podcasting

24:12

for pop Stuff because one of our bosses

24:15

heard us riffing at a party and thought we should try

24:17

it. That's really that's

24:19

exactly what happened. As a completely sure

24:22

yeah, at that point,

24:24

I had already been at How Stuff Works for several

24:27

years. I started at a staff as a staff writer

24:29

in two thousand and five, and

24:31

I guess at that point I was site

24:33

director and that's how we

24:36

landed here. And then as UM well,

24:38

Deblina was on eternity leave, I came on

24:40

as a guest for history, and

24:43

then Deblina came back and decided that she wanted

24:45

to make a career move elsewhere, and so then

24:47

I came on with Sarah for a little

24:50

while, and then Sarah also made a career move, and

24:52

Tracy joined me here and we sunseted

24:54

pop stuff. Uh, and that's

24:56

how we ended up on history.

24:59

That the story. So it's not really a course I

25:01

could plot out for anyone. No, And we get

25:03

a lot of questions from people that are like,

25:07

uh, what do you recommend

25:09

as far as getting jobs for history majors?

25:12

And that is a question we super cannot

25:14

answer because neither we nor

25:16

any other host who has ever hosted this

25:18

podcast has a history degree.

25:21

Yeah. The one person that I know in my life

25:23

that has a history degree, and she actually has a graduate

25:25

degree in historical studies, is

25:28

a librarian. So

25:30

that's the one instance I know, but I

25:33

don't know that that path is going to be for everyone.

25:35

She also has a graduate degree in library science,

25:37

so uh,

25:39

yeah, I mean, I think we're

25:42

kind of at a weird I don't

25:44

know if it's weird, We're at a point it's

25:46

sort of in terms of the

25:48

career world where it's

25:50

so much different. I think even than when Tracy and

25:52

I went through college, that

25:55

it's a little bit almost

25:58

tricky to chart a direct path to anything,

26:01

you know, unless you're in like a very um

26:04

kind of established field that follows

26:07

a pretty set course that has not really

26:09

shifted, particularly with all of the economic shifts

26:11

that have gone on. Like if you know, you want to be a

26:13

veterinarian, and you go through

26:16

college and you get your biology degree and then you

26:18

go to veterinary school and you get your degree in that,

26:20

and that's kind of your natural career path.

26:22

But there aren't many career paths like that

26:24

anymore, I think, especially if you're in like the liberal

26:26

arts degree area. Well, even if you're not, like

26:29

Patrick's degree, his undergraduate

26:32

and first graduate degree are engineering

26:34

degrees, and he is a librarian now

26:37

with a separate Master of Library Science

26:39

to go with his previous

26:41

engineering studies. So I

26:44

think pretty much everyone I know has a

26:46

winding, circuitous route to get to

26:48

where they are now. Yeah,

26:51

so yeah, it's uh,

26:53

we don't have a direct path. Um.

26:56

My thing is kind of like I

26:58

think how we both ended up in histories of both

27:00

Tracy and I have always liked a lot of aspects

27:02

of history. We both are readers, we both kind

27:04

of just like learning new things,

27:07

so way before we were ever in any

27:09

sort of universe thinking about a podcast

27:11

like this, before podcasts even existed, we

27:14

were kind of reading about history all the time anyway.

27:16

Well, and from a completely

27:19

practical sense, the past hosts

27:21

were leaving and we needed new ones,

27:25

so it made sense because we both do like history

27:28

that it was a pretty natural transition

27:31

from that point of view. So that's the scoop. I'm sorry

27:33

it's not a direct like, uh,

27:35

here's your next step, But the

27:37

best thing I could say is just to keep studying

27:39

all the things you love and eventually

27:42

an opportunity will probably present itself

27:44

to put some of that into play as long as you're you

27:46

know, working hard at other things and making

27:49

your way in the world. It's

27:52

hard for me because I do like structures, so I wish

27:54

that I could tell you here's how. Uh,

27:57

but yeah, just keep learning everything you

28:00

who are interested in learn all the time. Learn

28:02

about things you're not interested in, because sometimes

28:04

those pay off in other ways. Uh. If

28:06

you would like to write to us, probably

28:09

not for a career advice, because we're apparently not great

28:11

at giving it uh, saying work

28:13

hard and study things that are interesting. Uh.

28:15

You could do so at History podcast at how stuff

28:18

works dot com. You can also connect with us

28:20

at Facebook dot com slash missed in History,

28:22

on Twitter at misst in history, at

28:24

missed in History dot tumbler dot com, and

28:26

on pinterest dot com slash missed in

28:29

History. If you would like to get some missed

28:31

in History goodies like shirts

28:34

or toebags, or mouse

28:37

pads or copy cups, you can do so at

28:39

missed in History dot spreadshirt dot com.

28:41

If you would like to learn a little bit more about

28:44

the topic of today's podcast, you can go to our parents

28:46

site, how stuff Works. Type in dark

28:49

matter in the search bar and you will get how dark

28:51

matter works uh, and you can study

28:53

that and almost anything else you could like

28:55

at our parents site, which is how s to

28:57

works dot com. If you would like to read show

29:00

notes and burrows about on our history

29:02

topics, you can do that at our site, which is missed at

29:04

history dot com

29:09

for more on this and thousands of other topics

29:11

because it has stuff works dot com.

29:16

M