0:12

wanted to put on pop a song writer trolley hurting

0:14

and i am sam sanders host

0:17

of the vulture podcast into

0:19

it and is it safe to say now

0:21

charlie that we have sibling patasse

0:23

sister podcast cousin podcasts

0:26

we do we our kind of part a larger family

0:28

which is really sweet for me feel

0:30

like are probably number one

0:33

of a pod you been on system hop so me times

0:35

of talk about labyrinth of talk about cindy lauper

0:38

with talk about so many different great

0:40

artists by today's kind of special not

0:42

only because are now in the same family together

0:44

but because are also beyond say a

0:46

new se kind of inspired this conversation

0:49

because your first episode of into

0:51

it that podcasts about the culture were obsessed

0:53

with with a look back at the artist's thirteen

0:56

self titled album the how it changed

0:58

pop music but now beyond say is

1:00

back with her first solo studio

1:02

album six years a

1:04

song

1:11

the other i want to see how she met between your pocketbook

1:13

again listen closely to the album and

1:15

identify what sounds she's using

1:17

which is referencing bush is trying to and

1:19

i think trying to do a lot it is trying

1:21

to do a lot let's start by hearing a clip of

1:24

the song cozy and co

1:26

see com

1:35

i'm how moink musically

1:37

and thematically to you i think there are several

1:40

themes and they're like that's clearly

1:42

given ballroom is giving queer

1:44

energy and some readings

1:47

of the lyrics of that song see

1:49

it as an empowerment

1:51

anthem for genderqueer nes

1:53

i think in general what

1:55

i hear when i look at an overall the

1:57

biggest name is that's beyond

1:59

as at this point wealthy an ass

2:02

and enough and has been doing

2:04

this long enough to make an album

2:07

full of as many as she wants

2:09

and to do it with the best of the best

2:11

in the industry is and to as much

2:13

money as see nice who the clear any it

2:16

is an sustain as an exercise and

2:18

scene where are the house elements

2:20

where are the disco elements where are

2:23

the funk elements but

2:25

i think what strikes me the hardest

2:28

when i look at a holistic li is

2:30

just how we are listening

2:32

be on say just try on a lot of different

2:34

costumes by ,

2:36

as much money as he wants to and

2:39

an to do so and see just

2:41

bomb as ideas and every song half

2:43

of the songs for like the or different songs

2:45

and wide right to just has that many as

2:47

spit not it's you you it

2:49

feels very overwhelming at first but

2:52

once you hear it the third or fourth time

2:54

you just realize that

2:57

this is an artist at the top

2:59

of their game creatively professionally

3:02

creatively and so he her

3:04

have so much fun was just

3:06

improvising really improvising brilliant

3:14

so on this track she's working

3:16

with a black trans producer

3:19

honey dijon and revered

3:21

chicago house producers and dj's

3:23

eve giles second and green velvet

3:26

so she's clearly making a nod to

3:29

the dance music that has inspired her

3:31

but as you said she goes out and she just every

3:34

possible sample that she needs to make the

3:36

statement she sampling here get

3:38

with you mentioned any to chicago house

3:40

song by dj lidell townsville and mtf

3:51

oh that's fine and you even

3:54

get samples of

3:56

you tube clips from t

3:58

s madison

3:59

really i'm dark brown

4:08

fun to hear that into know

4:10

where it's coming from and to see an artist like

4:12

beyond say duets see

4:14

is not queer see is not trans

4:17

see is that in any way lgbtq

4:19

a plus but it just seems

4:21

like see and or her team

4:23

have like done a of research and a lot of

4:25

reading and found these pockets

4:27

of culture that are very nice

4:30

and then found a way to put them in

4:32

songs and away the still feels

4:34

f relentlessly be onset it doesn't

4:36

feel see is these skins

4:39

on and nineteen that rights it sounds good

4:41

but he dedicates the record to

4:43

her uncle johnny who she

4:45

said was he was my godmother

4:47

and godmother first person to expose me to a lot of the music

4:50

and culture that serve as an inspiration for this

4:52

album thank you to all the pioneers

4:54

who originate this culture to all of the fallen whose

4:57

contributions have gone unrecognized for

4:59

far too long her , johnny

5:01

through the died of complications from

5:03

hiv hiv

5:08

she initially had the idea of going

5:11

and making a dance record and there's a lot of various

5:13

ants forms that are reference here i it's

5:15

really important for her to connected to

5:17

the from which it truly comes from mean

5:20

to see her do what she's doing now

5:23

if you look at like the trajectory

5:25

of house and dance to dance

5:28

she's kind of years after

5:30

the david get application of

5:33

album use a right right taking it back

5:35

not just for people but also for queer

5:37

people and not taking a bath

5:39

i don't beyond say david guetta i

5:42

think i say and us to and

5:44

it's always been us right yeah so

5:46

i want to take her discussion into the kinds

5:49

of music that she was referencing many of them

5:51

are on the nose for example

5:54

if you listen to america

5:56

has a problem it's

5:59

just

6:00

electro almost

6:08

or not often cited

6:11

right said i'm too sexy

6:18

on alien superstar

6:27

that portion of alien superstar

6:30

that played it does kind of highlight

6:32

one of my smallest critiques

6:34

of the album itself was that there's

6:37

some songs where she's trying to

6:39

sit so many musical ideas in

6:41

that so get to a really fun musical

6:45

and then that stay there long enough of

6:47

that the heart of alien superstar

6:49

doesn't sound like the part before

6:51

me it sounds better and i want that

6:54

little many hooked it's you played

6:56

for us i want three and a half minutes

6:58

of she gives you forty five seconds of

7:00

that and this album because it's

7:02

so chock of things yes

7:04

seal switzer song on

7:06

you three times in the midst of five minutes

7:09

and then like love the middle poor successor

7:11

ammo for can sing along to it's gone

7:13

on to something else and , is the

7:15

most beautiful whip last the whole

7:17

album plays almost like a

7:20

dj set oh yeah sometimes or

7:22

things and ideas as mashed up and

7:25

when you read through the lyrics

7:27

which is really fun to do you realize

7:29

that these lyrics are long there are multiple

7:31

sections songs aren't just verse chorus

7:33

verse chorus they're like intro

7:35

refrain refrain

7:38

verse pre chorus refrain

7:40

chorus posts chorus refrain

7:42

l uses throwing ideas on top of ideas

7:45

or and that is what makes her i think the most exciting

7:47

of the megawatt pop

7:50

megawatt it's not

7:52

that seized has made a new beyond say

7:54

formula for making songs it's

7:57

that on this album the formula no longer

7:59

exists she's throwing

8:01

pain against the wall in the most beautiful

8:03

way and mates there

8:06

are parts of this our more you don't know where you are

8:08

but that's the point also extended metaphor

8:10

and get and sense of the different colors

8:12

that she's painting with here on earth

8:15

check out the song cafe

8:26

it giving who them air nile rodgers

8:29

you hear that guitar and hundreds of like this

8:41

the might be can be also uses populace

8:44

giddy nile rodgers on the track would have been

8:47

but she also song

8:49

writer heavyweight raphael saadiq on

8:51

this as well and the dream

8:53

and seo yeon percussion i've forgotten

8:55

about that oh my god says

8:57

all the superstars yet and like it's

8:59

not just i had the money to for them it's

9:02

they all want work her out the celebration

9:04

all the legends this point know her

9:06

crap enough they want to celebrate this would be

9:08

on say and be in this work in any way possible

9:10

is to get the collaborate with

9:12

such giants and have

9:15

i'm on a song or so

9:17

is definitely a flex and

9:19

i think it's a flex to say

9:22

why don't we just do seeks good time

9:24

but give our own spin on it and then i

9:26

love about as i when you get in this

9:28

groove beyond that all

9:30

of a sudden just inserts a dollop

9:33

of like beyond say stuff

9:35

which is like her hallmark see does

9:37

this thing where so perform these lyrics that

9:39

would sound cz and koreans if anyone

9:41

else saying them the about beyond say thing that you're

9:43

like okay flight's he gets to the almost

9:45

chorus and then out of the blues it just goes

9:48

limited on tapia and

9:53

you're like why you say let me sit on top of you in

9:55

the middle of really similar song but

9:58

it works of it's beyond in the you

10:00

know what you walk into your kids and sing at the

10:02

top echelon let sit top

10:04

here because beyond say said it you

10:06

know it's a very sexy album

10:09

and there's a lot of things that feel like language

10:11

the should only be used in the bedrooms and

10:13

get used as lyrics insult the like they

10:15

they actually land i think it

10:17

speaks to the sophistication of

10:19

her as an instrument one

10:22

the things i really notice on this

10:24

whole album is that is

10:26

vocal performances are

10:28

better than i think i've ever heard them be before

10:31

you to her voice has gotten deeper and husk year

10:33

and more for the old as he's was

10:35

still hidden this epic falsettos see doing

10:38

had boys since he still don't all the rap voices

10:40

farm and but every little voice he tries

10:42

on in this album see embodies

10:45

it perfectly so see saleen

10:47

the snarls he's selling the growls

10:49

he's the fall our see selling

10:51

all of that and some whenever she does

10:53

those wacky vocals and those wacky weird

10:55

lyrics it's too good for

10:58

you to say corny at all as

11:00

just too good

11:05

he even goes out of her way to

11:08

give interpolation nods

11:10

for the la la laws that she

11:12

does throughout the record so really

11:14

on cough it we have little

11:16

law right here that

11:20

it gets credited to gina marie

11:23

for her song ooh

11:26

la ooh la la my

11:38

wife feels like something baby

11:41

beyond copyrightable speech

11:43

in beyond say i feel like

11:46

is going out of her way both to cite

11:49

credit in compensate her

11:51

influences but also potentially

11:53

a bit of you know cover your own ass and make that

11:55

somebody doesn't come around and say ah

11:58

that was something i did before here's

12:00

a ten million dollar lawsuit i would like a cut of your song

12:02

i think we a little bit of route

12:04

the album oh for sure i mean there

12:06

are some of these references were

12:09

i see if it went to a court of law she probably

12:11

wouldn't lose but when you're

12:13

is rich and powerful as beyond

12:16

and you afford to clear the sample clear

12:18

the clear sense why not

12:21

but i like to also consider it as

12:23

like beyond the and her team so

12:26

in their work yes and i think like

12:28

for a woman artist like beyond say who

12:30

has for so often and her career

12:33

not been taken seriously the

12:35

liner notes themselves are showing you

12:37

that this woman and her team have a

12:39

p h d a music history finesse

12:42

was listen to the end

12:45

of cassette because it sequences

12:47

in that dj kind perfectly

12:50

into the next song which is

12:52

a real sight of a controversy

12:54

or outside yeah my favorite moment the

12:56

album the census

13:01

look it up

13:03

oh

13:05

cool fallen i'm in the

13:08

, ssssss

13:11

ac milan persists this

13:13

is crazy about this album charlie

13:16

so we're listening to energy now featuring

13:18

here yeah i you know there are some

13:20

albums were a certain we're

13:22

cool moment makes you scream a

13:25

certain musical that

13:27

the vocalist hits makes you screams

13:29

there's several just transitioned on

13:31

this album that make me scream

13:34

every time and that's one of the the

13:37

good a there's a really

13:39

good sequence the cars from cover to energy to break

13:41

my soul to girl we're gonna listen to a bunch

13:43

of them by it we got us down energy for a

13:45

second yeah because addition to having

13:47

in update earn ballistics

13:50

word had been in the album's fiance

13:52

actually has actually change one of the credits on

13:54

energy are you willing to get this debacle

13:56

for debacle i would love to because i have some

13:58

bones the pit

14:13

hey you're going to the i think be in the world

14:15

of speculation because people

14:17

like beyond the don't really cynical not a bad

14:19

idea except for her on her own terms

14:21

and yeah everyone litter of such fears and da's

14:24

we don't get full story's but steam i

14:26

just sort of summarizing what has happened in

14:28

energy and i once was of them listening to it

14:30

deconstructing and only hear what you have to say so

14:33

this song energy report a snippet of

14:35

it but it another song on

14:37

as a minute into at the cost is my

14:41

jane

14:44

and

14:47

that song says borrowing

14:49

lightly from the police may get

14:51

hit milks

14:57

and

15:02

it seems as if for wow and the who

15:05

wrote the song and produce the songs

15:07

it seems as if they cleared up they didn't

15:09

let cleese know and when police

15:11

found out that per hit milkshake was

15:14

almost beyond the album she really really really

15:16

angry about it publicly ,

15:18

off on social media and

15:21

just a few days after police his first

15:23

critique beyond say just

15:25

took out the sample and what's crazy

15:27

charlie is if you listen to

15:30

the beyond say version of his song with the sample

15:32

and the one without you can't

15:34

tell the difference

15:35

i couldn't

15:36

the party was actually removed

15:39

from energy was a little law

15:41

segment that supposedly sounds

15:43

like milkshake laws

15:46

which i don't hear whatsoever so here's

15:48

the original energy those

15:55

lawler was supposedly sounds

15:58

like can leases the was

16:00

on milkshake wisla lot

16:05

can you pull the be on say one again just

16:07

here are the vocals isolated from the truck or

16:11

, is no longer longer

16:15

, different rhythm of

16:17

different melanesia energy

16:20

today those melanesia don't exist

16:25

or weird because the thing say

16:27

that has been fixed is law

16:29

sample not be

16:32

because the law would have been the thing that khalis

16:34

would have performed making

16:36

her feel there's more right to but

16:38

she doesn't own any of the publishing are masters

16:41

on original milkshake she claims that the

16:44

made her side exploited of contract

16:46

would this is the thing i wanna take a on

16:48

apparently if we believe some reports

16:51

milkshake in it's in a race

16:53

and luckily saying wasn't originally

16:56

written for her for ral and sad

16:58

he though of the neptunes had written

17:00

had song milkshake tried to

17:02

sell it to britney spears tried

17:04

turned britney down on cleese got it from

17:06

and of course we know that milkshake as we know is

17:08

not milkshake without police

17:11

surely but the song itself

17:13

wasn't police surely just of her was

17:15

genuinely confused by the story because

17:17

on first listen i couldn't originally find

17:19

the interpretation either to my

17:22

ear though lol i was so

17:24

nothing alike and probably

17:26

are not protect will copyrightable speech

17:28

so removing them feels like a cover

17:31

your ass sort of situation that doesn't to

17:33

me properly resolve this dispute

17:35

because the part of the song i think sounded

17:38

most like know she wasn't a beat

17:40

and energy which sounds a little bit like

17:42

it's in the same musical family as the synthesizer

17:44

line from milkshakes so a

17:46

transcribe them both on tips yeah no

17:48

and change their key to compare them so

17:51

here's milkshake

17:56

that

17:59

and here's and

18:03

two different charlie

18:05

the have some similarities the both

18:08

start with a little down be a

18:10

flying and then on an offbeat

18:12

they both had this little minor second

18:14

melodic motif they're

18:17

in different keys they are actually

18:20

using different scale degrees

18:22

and this melodic

18:25

motif that they use is something that

18:27

the neptune sexy youth a lot of

18:29

it's the neptune sound it's the neptune so

18:31

it's the net and sounded very similar to

18:34

north nothin a song

18:36

the neptune produce beer before

18:42

isolated some like this the

18:47

role in like the neptune this family

18:49

but and own that i wanted so for

18:51

allen said own sounds not police

18:54

as much as i love milkshake as much as i love

18:56

police when i think of that sound

18:58

and who it belongs to the neptune

19:00

were making beats like for ten years that

19:02

we're all over the radio it wasn't

19:04

just milkshake totally i don't know some

19:07

folks his said this is more about a beef between

19:09

for rolling police that will involve

19:11

beyond say at all but sees involved now i

19:13

just that like there are large request

19:16

sins of song writing

19:18

and production and owns

19:20

what and who the sound belongs to

19:23

that a kind of lost in this finger pointing

19:25

conversation between police and for our i

19:27

also wonder had they not credited

19:30

any this at all would police or her

19:32

team ever have even noticed know this

19:34

isn't a or would have picked no one would have noticed

19:37

when noticed to hear about the store

19:39

and listen for versions with and without i'm

19:42

someone who literally studied music composition

19:44

and undergrad race and i really couldn't

19:46

find myself you know them say a very go

19:48

there are clear musical fast

19:51

that musical blatant and disrespectful i

19:53

don't think this is one of them at most it

19:55

might be a pet tips which

19:58

tips don't acquires declared that's just

20:00

my subjective opinion the i think the unfortunate

20:02

thing is so much conversation has been

20:04

spent on this one

20:07

little complication the

20:09

some of the music has been missed and

20:12

one of these i really love about

20:14

this song again is

20:16

the way that sequences so beautifully

20:18

into the next track break

20:20

my soul because at the end of

20:23

energy we get a sample

20:25

of collaborator big

20:27

frida the new orleans bounce artist

20:43

i thought if that

20:45

doesn't gets you off your ass and on and dance

20:47

floor

20:50

wow just wow

20:52

these transitions yellow my mind every

20:55

time it's your point worth it feels

20:57

like there are multiple

20:59

scholars of music here thinking

21:01

about how do you bland energy

21:04

which has a house style

21:06

rare though maybe there's an afro beat senators as

21:08

neptune vibe who knew that the bridge

21:11

in to add nine these house

21:13

beat was going to be a balance

21:15

style reference ah yes

21:18

and we're not going to talk about break my soul

21:20

because we did a whole episode on

21:22

that song specifically instead

21:25

what i thought we could do is see as she uses

21:27

that big frida sound and

21:29

works it into the next

21:32

song church girl yeah

21:39

who are you hearing here i'm here in a clark says

21:41

to sample which i just

21:50

you see beyond say not just

21:52

reference sometimes obscure

21:55

house music and obscure ballroom

21:57

nods to see her

21:59

reference this gospel supergroup

22:03

that is so beloved by a certain

22:05

portion of the black community it

22:07

warms my soul and to see her take

22:10

this gospel song and put it on

22:12

top of a trigger man be

22:21

that is just as me to save your ass

22:23

in the club suppose

22:25

it off and she pulled it off

22:28

and it's not hokey it's empowering

22:31

ceased reading this needle

22:33

that shows you that she cares

22:36

about not just the fullness and

22:38

totality of these musical styles and

22:40

but she cares about the fullness and totality

22:42

of black identity and i just think it's really

22:45

powerful than you know search girl is my favorite

22:47

song on the album but it's my favorite statement are

22:49

all these style that she's together

22:52

to make a larger commentary

22:54

on identity and putting all of these

22:56

things together and one big pot calling and renaissance

22:59

yeah well and like when i think of the term

23:01

renaissance and what the name that album

23:03

means i think the first

23:06

thing i'm thinking is references

23:08

to the harlem renaissance all

23:10

that was was a real

23:12

celebration for many that said black

23:15

, and black creatives are

23:18

allowed to be as free in work

23:21

and their identity and their presentation

23:23

of self as they want to be they're

23:25

free to go crazy they're free to have fun

23:27

and trout all of their ideas ideas

23:30

so it's really spitting that

23:33

you know that most powerful statement on

23:35

this album is a song very

23:37

much about black women like beyond

23:39

say celebrating their secular

23:42

and their sacred as well which

23:44

is very much here a church girl that was

23:46

the idea the harlem renaissance you get to

23:48

all of you right and of think the

23:50

harlem renaissance as was the virginal

23:53

renaissance as both period of great collaboration

23:56

and he soon coming out

23:58

of some real dark ages and

24:00

said these were both scions

24:03

throughout history it were places

24:05

where you would fine artist and conversation

24:07

with each other artists developing workshops

24:10

and i think one of the most miss understood

24:12

things and looking at this album

24:15

and so much beyond his work as the disconnect

24:18

with for for citations

24:20

and artists like diane warren

24:23

making famously bad takes asking

24:25

will how can be twenty four on a song see

24:28

twenty four riders on a beyond say song

24:30

is saying to me it's it's not a

24:32

song it's more than that it's a salon

24:34

lindsay has brought these mines and these

24:36

voices and these references together

24:39

and put all it in a room and

24:41

they are in the most interesting conversation

24:43

with each other that as renaissance

24:45

and that is be energy of the

24:47

harlem renaissance put all the ideas

24:50

together put all the collaborators together let's

24:52

all just get together and brainstorm and make

24:54

spawn sit because the limit does not exist

24:56

we refuse a limit in clearly

24:59

we have a vision

25:01

of duration but something feel like is so

25:03

under appreciated despite it being her

25:06

greatest skill is the

25:08

that she performs

25:10

her voice is such an

25:12

incredible asset and it is a place of

25:14

immense agency the density

25:17

of samples is matched yeah

25:19

i think the density of her voice you can

25:21

get a song with cozy which is in

25:23

it's court a heavy very deep

25:25

song yeah but it is awash

25:28

in these huge vocal harmonies

25:30

that are unlike anyone else

25:39

he hear that to me santa

25:41

lame the best songs

25:44

of like destinies child's oh yeah there were some

25:46

vocal arrangements that beyond say was only

25:48

with them back then why would say oh that's not papa

25:59

their advance their hoodie know

26:02

that most pop singers don't even know how to hit

26:04

season and so this is certain parts

26:06

of this album where you just reminded

26:09

beyond , is it just a really gifted

26:11

singur see has

26:13

see artists musical mind

26:16

and i keep thinking about the

26:18

and runs of the song

26:20

plastic off the sofa

26:25

gambling aimed at it works

26:27

and it still danceable that the

26:29

know since he hits with her voice

26:32

indicate , a higher knowledge

26:34

of the way chords and notes work the major

26:37

and you is very excited by this right and

26:39

so like this sometimes i'm just like

26:41

did beyond status hit a try towns oh

26:44

my god like magazine

26:47

it's amazing and like

26:48

besides has been able to hit those notes in those really

26:51

strange and beautiful ways for pop

26:53

see can speak several

26:56

different musical languages with her voice

26:58

see do the falsetto see can do

27:00

the growls can do the rap saying

27:03

if we can sound coachella as you're sick and sound

27:05

like a man south and screwed rap

27:07

when she wants to beyond say

27:10

has been singing steadily and

27:12

strongly for twenty years

27:14

and the voices did that

27:16

he that's amazing to me so

27:19

as much as this album is a seat

27:22

in collaboration of feet

27:24

in sampling a musical reference seen as

27:26

feet and improvisations it's also

27:28

a moment to look at how well

27:31

the on say has protected all of for instruments

27:34

over the course of twenty plus years

27:37

who else have that kind of run and gets better

27:39

every time every time we should really take a step

27:41

back into see how versatile have a talent

27:43

she has her mind continually

27:46

jumps to new ways of how to

27:48

be beyond say but still beyond say

27:50

and that's a seat hear this literally phone

27:52

is is really fun attack isn't

27:55

the other the system pop

27:57

was edited by julie myers engineer by the

27:59

land

27:59

illustrations got leave community

28:02

management by that'd be bar executive producers

28:04

are to shock her one hundred rosa more number

28:06

of locksmith your podcast network in a production

28:08

of vulture big thank you to sanders

28:11

you should have we go subscribe to his

28:13

new podcast into it it's my favorite

28:15

culture podcast i'll post a link in

28:17

our show notes you can catch those anywhere you get

28:19

podcast and on switched on pop com

28:22

you can just on social media especially don't

28:24

pop on twitter and instagram to

28:27

hear how you're feeling about renaissance

28:29

will be back next week rent is only going to give

28:31

us an episode on demi lovato and

28:34

plug it until them