0:05

Teaching While Queer is a podcast for 2SLGBTQIA+

0:09

educational professionals to share their

0:12

experiences in academia . Hi

0:14

, I'm your host , Bryan Stanton , a

0:16

theater pedagogue and educator in New York City

0:19

, and my goal is to share stories from around

0:21

the world from 2SLGBTQIA+

0:23

educators . I hope you enjoy Teaching

0:26

While Queer . Hello

0:33

everyone and welcome to another

0:35

episode of Teaching While Queer . I

0:37

am your host , Bryan Stanton . My pronouns

0:40

are he/ they . And today I'm so excited because we are taking a trip to Glasgow

0:42

. We are meeting with Damon Young . How's it going ? Pronouns are he , they , and today I'm so excited

0:44

because we are taking a trip to Glasgow . We are meeting with , uh

0:46

, Damon Young . How's it going ?

0:51

hi , great , yeah , and thank you for having me , brian

0:54

. Really

1:07

nice to be here . I'm so happy I live in Glasgow

1:09

, but I'm from Manchester in England

1:11

. I currently

1:14

work in a university

1:16

in Glasgow called University of Strathclyde

1:18

. I've been teaching there

1:20

now since 2019 , so just before

1:22

the pandemic . Prior

1:25

to that , I was abroad , working

1:27

in Italy and Taiwan

1:29

, where I first started my teaching career

1:31

, kind of with children

1:33

and teenagers , before moving into

1:35

higher education . So yeah

1:38

, Awesome .

1:39

And how do you identify within the LGBTQ

1:42

community ?

1:45

So I am a cisgender

1:48

male gay man , but I

1:50

would also identify as being

1:52

part of a queer community . So you

1:56

know , I recognize traits within

1:58

myself that don't fit the social

2:00

construct of

2:02

you know what a gay man should look like

2:05

. You know what anybody

2:08

kind of it's not binary essentially

2:10

. So yeah , I would identify as a gay man

2:12

but also as a queer person within

2:14

the community .

2:16

Yep , absolutely . That's kind of

2:19

how my journey has been as well

2:21

.

2:21

I currently identify as queer because I feel

2:23

like it's most comfortable and , I

2:26

guess , ambiguous enough um to not

2:28

have been a mold , you know exactly

2:32

, yeah , and I think that you know , through

2:34

the research that I've been doing , I've kind of been learning

2:36

about myself as well as I've been going reading

2:39

, you know , a lot of academic research , a lot of kind

2:41

of personal um anecdotes from people that have been published online . So , yeah , it's

2:43

kind of a lot of kind of personal anecdotes from people that have been published online

2:45

. So , yeah , it's kind of a lot of them

2:47

have kind of resonated with me and

2:49

gone . Oh , yeah , I kind of see myself there and

2:52

that's the realization of going . Yeah , I'm a queer person

2:54

and I'm happy to say that , proud to say it , and

2:57

yeah , we'll say that to anybody

2:59

who ever asks . In the past I

3:01

probably wouldn't have said that , but yeah , yeah

3:05

, it's funny , it's definitely .

3:07

The word has had an evolution , um

3:09

, and I think that it's now reaching a pinnacle

3:11

of acceptance um , with

3:14

and without the community right

3:17

.

3:17

Yeah , I think one of the

3:19

things that kind of sticks out for me is I don't

3:22

know about yourself as well , being in in

3:24

the states , but in the UK

3:26

the term queer was definitely

3:29

kind of a derogatory term that was used

3:31

by , you know , cisgendered heterosexual

3:34

people , um , as an insult to

3:36

gay , lesbian , trans people

3:38

, um . But now I think , as

3:40

you mentioned , we've kind of turned that corner where

3:42

taking ownership of the word again

3:44

um is is really great , and actually

3:46

had a had a conversation with quite

3:49

a few people in their , you know , 60s and

3:51

70s who would say , oh , so

3:54

we can say that now , and is it okay

3:56

for us to say that ? And blah , blah . And I said , well , if

3:58

I tell you I'm queer and you're talking to somebody

4:00

else , then yeah , you can

4:02

just say that , of course , if it's used in the right

4:04

way , you

4:11

know . So I think it's about people from that generation also relearning that you know , lgbtqia

4:13

plus or queer community have taken ownership again , which

4:16

is great .

4:17

Yes , absolutely , and that

4:20

evolution I think is so empowering

4:22

. And also I can see how

4:24

it would be difficult for folks who maybe only

4:26

heard it as a derogatory

4:28

term .

4:29

Yeah .

4:31

So it's , it's interesting . It's kind of like I

4:33

don't know . There's a lot of people within

4:36

the gay community who kind of reclaimed

4:38

the word faggots and I'm

4:41

not one yet to get myself

4:43

there , but like I

4:45

feel that they

4:47

you know all the power to you for feeling

4:49

confident in reclaiming that word . But I

4:52

don't know , having been on the other end of it a

4:55

couple of times in my life .

4:56

I'm like I don't know .

4:57

I don't know if I can say it Absolutely .

5:00

Yeah , brian , I'm totally there with you , and I think

5:02

I had a conversation recently over

5:16

the holiday season and you know the famous Pogue song , a

5:18

Fair Tale of New York

5:20

, and the word f thought , oh , I've really not thought

5:22

about it too much and whether it does affect

5:25

me or whether it does affect me , and actually I realized

5:27

, yeah , it still does kind of affect me because

5:29

, like you , being on the receiving end

5:31

of that word used in

5:33

you know a way

5:35

to cause harm and to discriminate

5:37

, et cetera , it is still

5:39

quite triggering , I think . So I'm like you , brian

5:41

, I'm not quite there yet , but maybe

5:43

one day I'll get there .

5:50

You know it's funny , because I had never heard that song until this year , and it's one

5:52

of the most popular really songs ? Yes , but I think it is . It definitely

5:54

has a bigger following in the uk

5:56

than it does in the us , but I saw oh yeah

5:59

, I saw a news article about it and

6:01

about the word and how even the artists

6:03

were like you know I

6:05

. I think that we should remove the word and

6:08

and in my brain I'm going well

6:10

, you're the artist , just go

6:12

record it you

6:15

know like go ahead yeah yeah

6:17

exactly .

6:19

They actually changed the lyrics . So , um

6:21

, I think now in the uk you don't

6:23

really hear that version unless you go on spotify

6:26

or whatever or any other platform

6:28

, and then you hear it there , but you don't

6:30

hear it online . You know mtv or on

6:32

the radio or anything . I think they

6:35

realize that it would cause more offense

6:37

than not , so and if the artist is

6:39

saying it like you say , then I think it's you

6:42

know , we should take a lead from the artist I guess , if

6:44

they recognize that it can cause offense , then you know

6:46

what's the harm in changing the world absolutely

6:48

ah , what a fun

6:51

little trail that we just went down um .

6:52

But I know let's

6:56

talk a little bit more about you um

6:59

.

6:59

So what was ?

7:00

life for you , like as a queer

7:02

student , like as a youth life

7:09

for you , like as a queer student , like as a youth

7:11

?

7:11

so yeah , I mean growing up in manchester , um manchester

7:17

in the kind of mid to late 90s , there's canal street which

7:20

is famous kind of globally I guess , for being um a safe space for the

7:22

queer community , lgbtq plus people . You

7:24

know there are bars for all

7:27

kind of people

7:29

within the queer community . So I

7:31

knew that growing up because I remember that my auntie

7:33

and my cousin who's

7:36

the same age as me she

7:38

my auntie took me to my first Pride

7:40

event in Manchester and I remember being

7:42

about 10 , 11 years old going my

7:44

gosh . This is amazing . And looking at all

7:46

the colours and going , I think I

7:49

had realised maybe a couple years before

7:51

that I was gay and

7:54

having seen kind

7:56

of what my life would you

7:58

know maybe look like in the future maybe not dancing

8:00

on a float or whatever , but kind of the message

8:02

that it is empowering kind

8:05

of meant a lot to me . So I really that's a

8:07

memory that always sticks in my mind Because

8:10

in high

8:13

school I think , although

8:16

I had a really good kind of high school

8:18

journey generally , I think

8:20

I should also recognise

8:22

that certain people

8:24

did target me for homophobic

8:27

abuse , so the word faggot was used

8:29

, and also being called

8:32

George Michael as an insult , and I thought

8:34

, ok , you think that's an insult

8:36

, I don't , but OK . So

8:39

yeah , it's these kind of memories that stick

8:41

in your mind and what

8:43

is nice that's kind of come out of that

8:45

is a couple of people from high school have reached

8:47

out to me since via Facebook and

8:49

apologize for the behavior , because I think

8:52

they realized that you know they were just

8:54

being sheep and I guess

8:57

you know the society that we were

8:59

living in kind of late nineties , early

9:01

north , there

9:03

was still a hangover effect of . In

9:06

the uk . We had something called section 28

9:08

, which was about , um

9:10

, in kind of the thatcher years . Um

9:12

, no lgbtq plus

9:14

material in schools . You can't have

9:17

any books , you can't listen , don't talk about it

9:19

, no , you know . So I think that

9:21

was a kind of hangover and I was on the tail

9:23

end of that going to school . So

9:26

it was quite a pleasant

9:28

experience in high school and , I think , being

9:30

part of this rock

9:32

band . We weren't really a rock band , we were more like a cover

9:34

band , so we covered songs , you know , from Tina Turner

9:37

right through to Phil Collins . That

9:41

kind of saved me so in I think I was

9:43

about 12 years old . So in high school you start 11

9:45

in the UK . So at 12 years old

9:47

I joined the band as a singer

9:50

, had to audition um , I can't

9:52

sing now , so please don't ask me to sing because I've

9:54

lost my voice completely . Um

9:56

, but yeah , at the time it was a really

9:58

good experience and I remained in the band throughout

10:00

my high school years and I

10:03

don't know , I felt like everybody was different , um , and I was like , wow , everyone's really different in the band throughout my high

10:05

school years and I don't know , I felt like everybody was different and I was like , wow , everyone's

10:07

really different in this band and there were , you know

10:09

, two keyboardists , a bass guitarist , guitarist , drummer

10:11

. At one point there were five singers and

10:13

I remember thinking , oh wow , they're

10:16

totally different to the other people

10:18

in my class and I started to recognize the

10:20

differences in people , whether they were gay or queer

10:22

. And you know , now I now know that some of those

10:24

people that were in the band were actually gay

10:26

as well . Um , so we toured

10:29

Europe and it felt like a really super safe

10:31

bubble to be part of , because I'm

10:34

pretty sure my music teacher , um

10:36

, recognized that I

10:39

was gay as well . Um , just just

10:41

how kind of tentative he was , you

10:43

know , I think he could see that I was quite soft

10:46

, quite reserved , quite shy , but on stage listen

10:49

, I thought I was like britney spears or something , but

10:53

, um , yeah , so that was a really

10:55

safe space to be part of . Um

10:58

. So one

11:01

of the other kind of memories that pops up , I guess , is

11:03

in physical education and

11:05

I guess this is the same for

11:07

most queer

11:10

youths or LGBTQ youths

11:12

kind of going into the

11:14

shower room . Now , in the UK in the 90s most

11:17

schools had communal showers still , so you would have

11:19

to go and it'd be one kind of long

11:21

shower , basically

11:24

, and people would say to me you know

11:26

, oh , don't look at my penis

11:28

, you know , and I'd be like I'm

11:31

not , don't flatter yourself . You know

11:33

, and I think they were really trying to

11:35

, you know , make me feel

11:37

insignificant . You know , and at times it really

11:39

did , and you know we

11:42

would . I would actually make up

11:44

excuses for not having my sports

11:46

kit to play , um

11:48

, uh , soccer , because

11:51

I just didn't want to get changed , because

11:53

I just thought they're going to bully me again

11:55

. They're going to say that to me . They know that I'm

11:57

gay , you can see that , um , and

11:59

then I got made to be referee , so

12:02

I didn't know the rules for soccer , so

12:04

I would just blow the whistle randomly and

12:06

, yeah , people would shout at me and

12:08

anyway . So that was an

12:10

absolute nightmare . It was like

12:13

hell on earth , I think , and

12:15

those kinds of traumatic

12:17

experiences I think they stay with you , you

12:20

know . And now when I go to the gym , even

12:22

in Glasgow , there's still that kind of

12:24

oh , you know that , still that kind of oh , you know that , that kind

12:26

of tension of , oh , you know , please don't say anything

12:28

to me , even though nobody is going to say

12:30

anything . You know um , absolutely

12:32

, but it still kind of niggles there in your mind

12:35

um . So

12:37

yeah it , it's . It's

12:39

been an interesting but mostly

12:41

pleasant experience . I know that's not the

12:44

same for most

12:46

queer use , but I know that

12:48

um , a lot of young people

12:50

um kind of from

12:52

my generation , late 90s , early noughties

12:54

, experienced pretty

12:57

much the same as me . Having spoken to friends

12:59

, my age and things , and yeah

13:01

, it's , it's traumatic , I will say

13:03

that I've been into a lot

13:05

of schools when I was doing teacher training

13:08

and all these different things and volunteering

13:10

and it's just

13:12

incredible to see . You know um

13:15

an equality diversity inclusion

13:17

board and it's got information about

13:19

pride and it's got the . You know the

13:21

, the progress flag , it's got the trans flag

13:23

and it's got . You know all of these . You know marcia

13:26

P Johnson on there as as uh in

13:28

in history month that they were happening and I just

13:30

thought , oh my gosh , this is amazing

13:33

. I really wish I'd had this in school

13:35

growing up , because you know , when

13:38

you leave school and you start to learn about yourself and

13:40

you go to university or whatever you go to work

13:42

, we don't know about our history

13:44

. You know the civil rights not civil rights

13:46

the pride movement in New

13:48

York . You know the Stonewall movement

13:51

that we then learn about and

13:53

go , wow , what bravery you

13:55

know , and I think had that been part of our history

13:57

lessons and you know , it

13:59

just would have been so empowering to

14:01

be like you know what . I can stand up and I can

14:04

stick up for myself , because these people did , they

14:06

were fearless and I kind of wish

14:08

I had that , but you

14:10

know now I do , which is is great

14:12

.

14:13

So yeah , absolutely

14:15

. And there's something about it like where I think

14:17

that as a community we

14:19

have not only like ancestral

14:21

connections to like our own blood

14:23

, but ancestral connections to

14:25

our community . And so for

14:28

me , I grew up around like we're about

14:30

the same age and I grew

14:33

up kind of disconnected from the

14:35

queer community . And now I'm like , oh

14:37

, look at all these trailblazers who came before

14:39

me and I see how I'm connected to them

14:41

and what that means for me as

14:43

a person on what I want to blaze

14:47

trails for going into the future

14:49

. Oh

14:51

, 100 percent .

14:53

And , like you said , you kind

14:55

of they're like idols

14:57

, you know , and I think it's , it's

14:59

, and I was in , I was talking to my therapist a couple of

15:01

months ago about this , and I was talking to my therapist a couple of months ago

15:03

about this , and there's a kind of shared

15:06

experience through reading about

15:08

the sufferings that a lot of the

15:10

queer and LGBTQ plus community went

15:12

through . And , like you say

15:14

, you know it's when you learn about

15:17

these things I don't know

15:19

about you , but it can be quite triggering as well , because

15:26

you think , my gosh , we , we , you know we're living in a world I mean , the

15:28

world isn't perfect still and we've got a lot , um to do to

15:30

get to a place where it is equitable

15:33

and equality is , you know , existing completely

15:35

. But it was a lot worse back

15:37

then . You know , um , and I think just

15:40

, you know this word bravery just keeps

15:42

coming to my mind because it really was brave

15:44

. You know the amount of not only physical

15:46

but mental trauma

15:49

that a lot of people went through to stand

15:51

up and say I exist , I'm

15:53

here , I'm not going anywhere . So

15:55

, you know , deal with it . You

15:57

know , and I just think it's , yeah

16:00

, it's just it's incredible that these

16:02

people stood up and we are , you

16:05

know benefits

16:07

of those people standing up

16:09

, those 50 years ago , 60

16:11

years ago .

16:13

Yeah , absolutely watch

16:27

a documentary , or I will read something and just like it's almost completely triggered

16:29

trauma for me because of the the treatment of queer people

16:31

before my time um yeah

16:34

, just like thinking about how that

16:37

connects to me and that and part of that

16:39

is that I'm a very empathic person

16:41

. I like I feel lots of things

16:43

, um but

16:47

um it

16:49

. It's been interesting , kind of like as I learn

16:51

and grow , the things that

16:53

I didn't realize that maybe

16:55

I was holding onto um

16:58

and that they don't get unleashed until it's

17:00

connected to some sort of like historical

17:03

lesson about queer people from the past yeah

17:06

, absolutely yeah .

17:08

I completely agree with you , brian um

17:10

, and it is all about

17:12

I think it's important that we

17:14

, you know , we

17:17

just never forget this the kind of experiences

17:20

that people in our shared , in our

17:22

shared history went through for

17:24

us to be able to , you know , live

17:26

the lives that we live in today . Yeah

17:29

, it's just so important not to

17:31

forget .

17:32

Absolutely , which is why pride is even more

17:34

important , you know . It's

17:37

funny because a lot

17:39

of people are kind of of the mentality well

17:41

, a lot of people I've encountered at least are on

17:44

the mentality of like Pride is just

17:46

a party , now , it doesn't really mean anything , and

17:48

so it was almost a blessing that , like

17:50

the anniversary of Stonewall , the

17:52

50 years happened in

17:54

2019 to kind of remind people

17:57

what it was for . And then , unfortunately

18:00

, around the world , we've

18:03

seen this kind of pushback on

18:05

the queer community , and

18:08

so now it's even more important

18:11

because we're again standing

18:13

up and saying you know , we're here and

18:16

we're not going away and

18:18

you're going to have to learn to live

18:20

with that fact to

18:24

live with that fact .

18:28

Yeah , it's interesting because the first thing that makes me think

18:30

of that is I kind

18:32

of well , me and my partner

18:34

both got a job in Glasgow after

18:37

having decided to move back from Italy

18:40

back to the UK , and

18:43

we both managed to get jobs in Glasgow , which was great

18:45

, and I'm really glad

18:47

that we did Not to say that I wouldn't want

18:49

to live in Manchester or England because Manchester is a

18:51

very liberal city . It's , you know

18:53

, very left-leaning , it's very forward-thinking

18:57

. You know , the suffragette movement started

18:59

in Manchester , so it's always had that kind of

19:01

mentality of hang

19:03

on , this is oppression , we will stand

19:05

for it . So I'm

19:07

not saying that I wouldn't want to live in England , but

19:09

Scotland and

19:11

the Scottish government seem to have

19:13

a different direction to the

19:16

English government , which is also the UK government

19:18

. So Scotland tried

19:20

to pass laws for

19:23

the Gender Recognition Act to make

19:25

it easier for trans people

19:27

to self-identify

19:29

, but the English or UK

19:31

government blocked it in the Supreme Court . So

19:34

it's this kind of , you know , push

19:37

and pull from , even with internal within

19:39

the UK . That just

19:41

seems really unfair and I know that's

19:43

a totally different subject to do with independence

19:46

in Scotland . However , it

19:48

, yeah , it just makes me think that the

19:51

injustices that exist because

19:53

of governments and because of laws

19:56

and just

19:58

general oppression and , like you say , kind of

20:00

going backwards , a lot of governments

20:02

. I know that in Europe the

20:06

right and even the far right

20:08

has risen in a lot of countries and

20:10

a lot of um far right

20:12

parties have been winning recently , which

20:14

is again quite worrying

20:16

because generally the far right , as we know

20:19

, are um , yeah

20:22

they . They don't like us , do they ?

20:24

so yeah it's interesting

20:26

because , um prior

20:29

to moving to new york city , I lived . I lived in Texas for

20:31

five years . Texas is very conservative

20:33

, very far right , and

20:42

my description of it is that Texas is

20:44

anti-people , and

20:53

that is kind of that is how I feel about the far

20:55

right movement . Is that , while they have this , this , uh

20:57

, the near of like we're doing this for family values and all this stuff

20:59

, but they don't actually care about their constituents . They don't care

21:01

about any people , but the people in power

21:04

. Um yeah . And so my

21:07

, my concern is and

21:09

this is where I see kind

21:11

of a lack of humanity

21:14

across the board , like around the world

21:16

. We're seeing this lack of humanity and it's coming from

21:18

these pushback of the far right

21:21

community , because I very much believe

21:23

that they are not for people period

21:25

, they are for control

21:28

and power . And

21:32

that's a generalization and

21:35

I am not a political scientist , so you

21:37

know disclaimer , but

21:39

these are my observations that , as

21:41

an educated person who

21:44

has experienced living in , you

21:46

know , liberal spaces and living

21:48

in very conservative spaces , this is what

21:51

I see there . That

21:57

businesses have more power than people in the conservative spaces , the government has

21:59

more power than people in the conservative spaces , while

22:02

also at the same time , saying the

22:04

government needs to get out of my house

22:06

, but then the

22:08

government wants to be in my house

22:10

. It out of my house , but then the government

22:13

wants to be in my house . So it's

22:15

a contradictory thing where

22:17

it just really feels like we

22:19

are losing our humanity due

22:22

to this kind of politicizing

22:25

of things .

22:29

Yeah , I couldn't agree more with

22:31

you on every point yeah

22:33

, it's , it's a wild time .

22:35

I I , when I email guests

22:37

for those of you who are listening , you , you know , may

22:40

not realize like the back end stuff that happens

22:42

, but when I email guests about things , I I

22:44

always include a line that's like we

22:46

are living in turbulent times , so if

22:48

you need supports on x , y and z

22:51

, you know , reach out to me and

22:53

like that's really what it feels like . It

22:55

feels like at any moment you know you're

22:57

flying your lot , you're playing , which is your life

22:59

, and at any moment it's going to drop 10 feet

23:01

because something , something wild has

23:03

happened um , yeah

23:06

, it does feel like that .

23:07

Yeah , I think it's , um

23:09

, it's , it's yeah

23:11

. To be living in that space constantly as well

23:13

is also quite challenging . It's exhausting

23:16

, right ?

23:17

um , I mean you , you , you , totally

23:19

yeah so how

23:21

do you think your experience I I would

23:24

agree with you in the sense that , like late

23:26

90s , early aughts , like

23:28

it was easier

23:31

, I feel like I

23:33

didn't have a hard time either in my high

23:35

school years . I had , you know , a couple bullies

23:37

, a couple of instances like you're talking about , and

23:39

you know the gym um , and

23:43

I still have , I still have

23:45

issues at the gym because of that . So I'm

23:47

with you there , um , but how do

23:49

you think your experience has kind of influenced

23:51

your work and education ?

24:17

How has it influenced my work

24:20

? Well , massively

24:23

actually , because I

24:26

mean , to be honest , I was a little

24:28

bit when me and my partner first decided to go

24:30

to Taiwan . Bit

24:33

when me and my partner first decided to go to Taiwan . That's kind of on a whim we both just graduated

24:35

, um , from our undergraduate degrees and we thought let's

24:37

go to sports somewhere else . So we did that and

24:39

then we thought , oh , we could turn this into a career , so it was teaching

24:42

English in Taiwan

24:44

, um , and then we

24:46

got a qualification and we moved to Sicily

24:48

where we stayed for three years . Um

24:50

, and I'd

24:52

never , in in taiwan

24:54

, didn't receive any kind of homophobic

24:58

abuse or anything like that . Now

25:00

, in sicily that we did get into an incident

25:02

whereby , um

25:04

, these uh sicilian guys

25:07

, we was switching between italian

25:09

and english speaking with some friends and

25:11

these guys overheard us and

25:14

called my partner a faggot . So

25:17

then it ended up being

25:19

a fight . Police

25:22

were called ambulance , they broke my

25:24

nose , they broke my partner's nose and

25:26

I was just like I can't deal

25:29

with this anymore . I can't take it , and

25:31

that was in 2018

25:35

. Yeah , 2018 . Early

25:37

2018

25:40

. So we decided

25:42

maybe that was part of the reason why we

25:44

decided to come back to the UK as well . Sicily

25:47

was generally very open , but , you

25:49

know , it was also a place where

25:51

, um , I wouldn't

25:53

feel comfortable walking down the street holding

25:56

hands with my partner , just because you

25:59

would be targeted . That's that was how

26:01

I felt , um , and

26:03

so when we moved to glasgow , I

26:05

got the opportunity , um , whilst

26:08

we're teaching , um , I teach now

26:10

academic english to international students

26:12

, um , at the university I work at

26:14

, and I got

26:16

the opportunity to start my doctorate . So

26:18

I thought , okay , what do

26:20

I want to look at here ? What , what kind of

26:22

what do I keep coming back to ? And I had a conversation

26:25

with a few people at the university and

26:27

it kept coming back to EDI

26:30

, edi , edi . And

26:33

I thought , ok , yeah , this is something

26:35

that I could see myself doing long

26:37

term . I could see myself working

26:39

with an EDI in some capacity

26:41

. I could see myself , you

26:44

know , looking at the law , looking

26:46

at these policies . Are they working ? Why are they not

26:48

working ? Et cetera , et cetera . So I did

26:50

that as part of my research , working

26:54

, etc . Etc . So I did that as part of my research . Um , I went to , uh , some universities

26:56

around scotland and I interviewed the um equality leaders of the universities

26:59

and asked them okay , from your perspective

27:01

, what's working , what are the barriers , etc . And

27:04

, yeah , the results I'm

27:06

not , I'm just about to finish , so , um

27:08

, I can't talk about the results yet , but I'm just

27:11

about to finish my doctorate . In the next

27:13

kind of five months , I

27:15

hope , fingers crossed . And

27:17

yeah , I

27:20

would say that my

27:22

life experiences of going

27:24

into to kind of into education

27:26

are pushing me now more

27:29

towards EDI . That's not to say that

27:31

I don't love teaching , but maybe

27:33

I'd love to teach on some kind of equalities

27:35

or equity course . But

27:39

I definitely see myself going into

27:41

, maybe , education

27:44

establishments like elementary

27:47

schools , high schools and saying

27:49

, okay , this is what your policy looks like

27:51

, this is what the law says . How are

27:53

you going beyond that to make sure that your you

27:56

know your um lgbtqi

27:59

plus students are safe and they do feel like

28:01

they can come to you , etc . Um

28:03

, unfortunately , a law um has just

28:05

come into place in england um

28:08

whereby if

28:10

a student um

28:12

so an under 16 year old tells

28:15

a member of staff their preferred

28:17

pronouns , they have to inform

28:19

their parents now , which

28:21

I just think is devastating because

28:24

, you know , I remember having

28:26

teachers in school where I felt comfortable going to talk

28:28

to them and I

28:32

always felt safe . Talk

28:37

to them and um it , I never , I always felt safe . Now that this is in place

28:39

, the teacher may think , gosh , if , if that gets out , I could get into trouble , I could lose my job

28:41

, etc . So it puts them in a really precarious position and I think

28:44

it's yeah , it's really unfair . So

28:46

the reason I'm going to you

28:48

know , edi , and and that's what kind of led me

28:50

into um higher education

28:53

EDI specifically is

28:55

that you know , we just spoke about the

28:57

world changing or feels like there's a pushback

29:00

about equality in many different areas

29:02

of the world , and that's one of the things

29:04

that kind of is pushing me towards it . Um

29:07

, I also had um about

29:10

two

29:12

months ago . I

29:14

was on some public transport and

29:16

this guy was using his phone and sending voice

29:20

notes to somebody and screaming

29:22

down the phone again , this word , you

29:24

faggot , this faggot that da , da , da , da . And

29:27

so I approached him and I said listen

29:30

, could you not use that word ? And he completely

29:32

flipped on me . This is a free

29:34

country , I can say what I want . Who

29:36

are you to tell me Sit the fuck

29:38

down ? And I thought what the

29:40

hell ? Everyone around me kind of just stood there , didn't

29:43

say anything . And I was like , right , I could call

29:45

the police . But you know what I

29:47

just felt the police aren't going to do anything

29:49

, yeah . So anyway

29:51

, long and short of it is , I

29:53

went into education because of those

29:56

experiences and because I think I

29:58

want to be able to help people , and

30:00

that's , first and foremost where my head's always

30:02

at how can I help them , what can I do

30:05

to facilitate that , and how

30:07

can I make the world a bit more of

30:11

an equitable place , make

30:15

the world a bit more of an equitable place to be for people like us and for people trans , youth

30:17

, non-binary you know how can we make it even better for them ? And

30:20

that's , yeah , that's where my head is

30:22

.

30:24

That is also fascinating because I was

30:26

quite literally in a conversation

30:28

with a friend from high school yesterday

30:31

about EDI

30:33

In the US the acronym has changed

30:35

around to DEI and

30:39

we were talking about like policy versus

30:42

law and the fact that you're

30:44

talking about going into institutions and being like

30:46

okay , well , this is what the law says , but

30:48

couldn't your policy be better ? And

30:50

that is where I'm going

30:53

yes , yes

30:55

, it could . And we should all be able to

30:57

blatantly say to lawmakers

31:00

like yeah , here's the letter of the law

31:02

, but we're

31:04

doing this , we're in line

31:07

with the law , but we're actually a step ahead

31:09

, because I

31:11

think that lawmakers

31:14

need to hear it .

31:17

Yeah , yeah , totally . And one

31:19

of the things that I did was I , as part of

31:22

my research , I looked at the policies

31:24

the EDI , but more

31:26

specifically , the LGBTQI plus and

31:28

trans individual policies and non-binary

31:30

policies that the university is as

31:33

part of my research in Scotland and

31:35

I analysed

31:37

them and I kind of looked at the law to see , okay

31:39

, are they doing just the bare minimum , to kind of go

31:42

, okay , tick box , performative exercise

31:44

, um , or are they going beyond that and

31:46

um . Now

31:49

the equality act in the UK came in

31:51

2010 , and

31:53

I think there was an amendment in 2012

31:55

in Scotland and

31:58

that protects seven characteristics . Now

32:01

, when I looked at the Equality Act

32:03

and I looked at kind

32:05

of pre-Equality Act actually , and I looked

32:07

at what policies existed pre-Equality Act

32:09

, only one of the universities I

32:12

looked at and I looked at four universities , four

32:14

big universities in Scotland only

32:17

one of them had an LGBTQ

32:22

plus policy that

32:24

was talking about protections and you know what's

32:27

available , et cetera , and how people should be treated

32:29

. The others just had kind of general

32:31

equality policies , but

32:33

then when the law came in , they changed it and

32:36

you know , I have to say that they've gotten better

32:38

, but some of them are still

32:40

so vague that , you know , the

32:42

law itself is very vague and can

32:45

be , you know , misinterpreted by

32:47

different universities and I think , well , that university

32:50

is doing this , but that university is doing that , okay

32:55

, have they looked at the local culture and the needs of university and that's why they've

32:57

adapted the policy , or have they not looked at it ? Um , so , yeah , it's been a real kind

33:00

of journey of , you

33:02

know , moments that go in , but

33:05

how can you interpret , you

33:07

know this as that and how's that university

33:10

interpreted it in this way ? And I'm

33:12

not saying there needs to be a standardized way of understanding

33:14

the the um , the law

33:16

, because I do think that , you know

33:18

, different universities have different cultures and

33:20

I think it needs

33:22

to be looked at . For example , if there are more

33:24

trans individuals going to one university

33:27

, then the policy needs to reflect that

33:29

and I think it should be updated regularly

33:32

to reflect the local

33:34

population of the university , but

33:36

that's not happening . So that's

33:38

where , for me , in lies the problem . And I

33:41

think you know

33:43

equality

33:46

impact assessments , or EIAs

33:48

, are what a lot of universities

33:51

are now adopting and employing

33:53

, to kind of put that as part of every

33:55

part of the university

33:57

experience . So , and

34:00

it should be adopted in every part , so part of the curriculum

34:02

, how can we look back at you

34:04

know what , what's been taught over the past

34:07

10 years in you know a chemistry

34:09

department , and how can we make sure that that is

34:11

inclusive and representative

34:13

in what we say , how we say it

34:15

, etc . So , yeah , that's

34:17

just one example , but yeah , it's

34:20

. It's . There's a lot to do . Even

34:22

though it is better , there's still a lot to

34:24

do .

34:25

Absolutely , and I think one of the biggest things

34:28

that any government can do at the moment

34:30

is that I think that queer people

34:32

and all of our

34:34

categories need to be included in

34:36

data . Um , because

34:39

, for instance , the 2020

34:42

census in the United States was

34:45

set up by president Obama to include

34:48

, you know , uh , the

34:50

lesbian gays for everybody

34:52

, um , uh , transgender

34:55

folks and whatnot , and then was

34:57

changed , uh , by

34:59

Trump to only

35:02

allow for those people

35:04

who are married to

35:07

say that they're in a same sex relationship

35:09

. So if you are married and your partner

35:11

was same-sex , it like really held

35:13

to the binary and it

35:17

only counted those people who were married , and

35:19

so that

35:21

, I think , is incredibly frustrating , because , as

35:23

much as I don't want to be a number on a page

35:25

, I think that

35:28

we need to have our data available

35:30

, because people think that we are a very

35:32

small portion of

35:34

the world , and I'm

35:37

kind of inclined to believe that we are

35:39

much bigger than people think .

35:41

We just don't have the capacity .

35:43

We don't have the capacity to get realistic

35:45

numbers .

35:48

That's it , and , and this

35:51

is something sorry

35:54

, go on , Brian Ohrian .

35:54

Oh uh , there's . There was a

35:56

tiktok I watched recently , uh , of a

35:58

woman who found some

36:01

data somewhere about the us population

36:03

of queer people and was like if we put them , all

36:06

the queer people , in one state , we

36:09

would be the fifth largest state in the

36:11

united states and I

36:13

think that's incredibly powerful . Wow

36:15

, and that's the kind

36:17

of data , that one I want

36:20

to be able to cross reference , right , because I'm

36:22

not going to rely on tiktok to tell me something , yeah

36:24

, yeah um and two yeah

36:26

, yeah and two . It's

36:28

like if we had that data available

36:30

, it is a lot easier for us to combat

36:33

some of the problems that we're facing , because

36:35

if people think that we're one

36:37

in a million versus

36:40

like one in three , then

36:43

we are going to continue

36:45

to face adversity , and the biggest message

36:47

that I've seen is

36:50

you are alone in this experience

36:52

, in this idea that that

36:55

cisgender , heterosexual community

36:57

wants to make queer people feel like they're the only

36:59

ones .

37:02

Yeah , and I think it's

37:04

speaking about censuses the census

37:06

in the UK , the census I

37:08

think it was the 2021

37:11

English England

37:13

and Wales census , sorry , where

37:15

it was the first time

37:18

that they had included gay

37:20

, lesbian , trans , etc

37:22

. On the census . So now there

37:24

is data that shows

37:26

, you know where there

37:29

are high numbers of trans people living or high

37:31

numbers of gay men living , etc

37:33

. But in terms

37:35

of universities , I think an

37:39

education establishment

37:41

, I don't think that data is

37:43

recorded in

37:48

a way that is representative

37:50

. So where , for

37:52

example , at one of the universities

37:54

I interviewed , they had

37:56

1.2

37:58

FTE

38:00

, so over three people

38:03

working in the equality department

38:05

, because the university thought

38:07

, oh well , that's fine , that'll suffice , that's kind

38:09

of what our data shows , etc . But then they

38:12

a lot of people

38:15

don't fill out that that data

38:17

, it's not mandatory , um

38:19

, a lot of people may not be

38:21

out , so don't consider that , you know

38:23

. So then all the funds that should

38:25

be available don't go um

38:27

to the areas that are needed . And also

38:29

, now that academic capitalism

38:32

um has taken a hold in the

38:34

uk , um , it doesn't bring

38:36

in universities money . So a

38:38

lot of universities may argue , oh

38:41

well , it doesn't reflect the needs of

38:43

a local um market

38:45

, late labor market . So I

38:47

guess they're kind of thinking how can we , you

38:49

know , stay above the rest

38:52

? And having all these league tables

38:54

and fighting for funding

38:56

and the things really kind of pushes

38:59

EDI stuff to

39:01

the side quite a lot . And

39:03

yeah , it's clear

39:06

to see , I

39:16

would say , that a lot of universities , also in the UK anyway , do put a

39:18

lot of money into EDI and queer and LGBTQI plus areas because

39:20

they want and they recognise that

39:23

the community is larger , as you mentioned

39:25

, than is kind of thought

39:27

. So then they think , okay , well

39:29

, we can get the what they

39:31

call the so-called pink pound right

39:33

and we can get their money future

39:36

and we can get them to come here . Um

39:38

, so yeah , it's . I mean

39:40

, just the research I've been doing recently

39:43

about academic capitalism kind of has

39:45

me a bit skeptical about universities

39:48

that do that , because some

39:50

of them , as we mentioned , are just kind of performative

39:53

tick box exercises that , um

39:55

, perhaps aren't as true

39:58

as they seem .

39:59

So yeah , yeah

40:02

, I , I've never heard that term , pink

40:04

pound but I kind of like I

40:06

understand it and I kind of love it a little bit

40:09

. But

40:12

I

40:14

agree with you that I've had experiences

40:17

throughout my life in different settings where

40:19

it's like I'm checking this box so I can get

40:21

a check . And

40:23

yeah , that happens a lot in academia

40:25

. Like I

40:28

work a lot on inclusivity

40:30

for folks with disabilities through

40:34

the work that I do in my studies and

40:37

I found that

40:39

there is a high percentage of people who get put

40:41

into disability services for

40:43

the sake of the fact that states will give you extra money

40:45

per student . But

40:48

the services that the students are receiving

40:50

are not equitable to the amount of money

40:52

that the schools are given

40:55

. You know , yeah yeah . So

40:58

it's I want to check this box

41:01

so that I can get the money , but I don't

41:03

want to use that money for checking the box .

41:06

Yeah , wow , it's

41:09

just a conundrum , isn't it

41:11

? Yeah ?

41:12

it really is . It's going to take some real

41:15

systemic changes and , ideally

41:18

, getting the capitalism out of

41:20

education , that is

41:22

going to make some changes

41:25

.

41:26

Yeah , that's going to be a whole lifetime

41:30

of .

41:32

It's like earth shshattering almost .

41:34

Yeah , I know , I know , I know , it's

41:37

just my mind .

41:40

Thinking about the turbulent

41:43

times we're living in . What advice

41:45

would you give to a new teacher

41:47

who's going into the classroom and they're not

41:49

sure whether or not they should be their authentic

41:51

self ?

41:55

Um , Okay

42:03

, yeah , it is a tricky question because I think

42:05

you know

42:08

you want to say well

42:10

, we always live in hope and we always

42:12

want people to , you know , be

42:14

their true selves , be their authentic selves going into the

42:16

classroom , because why shouldn't you ? And

42:19

I think it's important that

42:21

people do that . Of course , I

42:25

also think it's important that people

42:27

recognise

42:30

the kind of support and help

42:33

that is available to them . So

42:35

, you know , for people that perhaps are not

42:37

comfortable coming

42:40

out or recognizing

42:42

that actually they're trans

42:44

, a trans individual or non-binary or

42:46

whatever it is , as

42:49

you mentioned earlier , there are people out there like

42:51

you . So I think

42:53

that's kind of one of

42:55

the things . Brian , can you repeat the question for me

42:57

? Sorry , I feel like I've gone completely off

43:00

.

43:01

Absolutely so . If

43:03

you've got a new queer teacher

43:05

, they're heading into the classroom for the first time and

43:08

they are unsure about being authentic

43:10

in the classroom and like maybe being

43:12

out or being themselves fully . What

43:15

advice would you give them ?

43:17

okay , yeah , um . Well

43:20

, it makes me think about again . In Taiwan

43:23

and Italy , initially

43:25

, me and my partner , because

43:27

we both were teachers there , so it

43:29

was very difficult to , even if we wanted

43:31

to , hide the fact that we were together . So

43:35

from the very beginning

43:37

, when we arrived and we were greeted by

43:40

the school manager and they had accommodation

43:42

for us and things in a hotel , whilst we got apartments

43:45

set up and things , um , she

43:47

said , okay , damon , here's your key . Okay

43:49

, richard , here's your key . And we

43:51

both kind of got into the lift , went to our

43:54

rooms and went hang

43:56

on .

43:56

What are we doing ?

43:57

you know , we've been together for just over

43:59

three years . At that point and thought , why

44:02

have we just done that ? We just kind of followed

44:04

that . But we , we

44:07

had told them prior to going there that we're

44:09

together . So I thought , no , this

44:11

is wrong . And and

44:14

you know , homosexuality

44:17

in taiwan and being gay lesbian is

44:19

is recognized , is recognized in Taiwan

44:21

and actually supported . And I

44:23

think a couple of years ago maybe it was last year , I

44:25

can't remember that same-sex marriage

44:28

was legalized in Taiwan

44:30

, which is great . So , yeah

44:33

, I went back downstairs and said , actually we're

44:35

together and she went oh yeah , okay

44:37

, of course , Sorry . Yeah , okay , we've been doing one . It was kind of

44:39

like at that moment I was like , okay , of course , sorry , yeah , okay , we'll bring you one . It was kind of like

44:41

at that moment I was like , okay , because it was a culture that we were both unfamiliar

44:43

with . So at that moment it was kind of , oh

44:46

right , and then when we were working

44:48

together in classrooms or

44:50

opposite you know , all the teaching

44:52

assistants and stuff and the other teachers knew

44:54

we were together , the parents knew

44:57

, pretty sure , the teenagers

44:59

and the kids knew in the school . So

45:03

that was the kind of first experience for me of being out in a school in

45:05

a different culture . I'd never done it in

45:07

the UK because I was only volunteering

45:09

and doing kind of placements as part of my undergraduate

45:11

degree . So I

45:14

guess , looking back , there was never really an

45:16

opportunity to talk

45:18

about it . It certainly didn't come

45:20

up in any lessons that I was observing as part

45:23

of teacher training and things , because

45:26

I probably

45:28

wouldn't have spoken about it then because I really

45:30

didn't feel comfortable enough or

45:32

confident enough to

45:35

be my authentic self I guess . I guess I was

45:37

young and wouldn't really

45:39

know or didn't really know how to handle it . So that

45:41

first experience in Taiwan for me was okay

45:44

, this is okay , and that's how you do it , and that's how

45:46

you assert yourself in those situations and

45:48

you be yourself and that's it . I

45:50

am here , that's who I am great

45:52

. If you don't like it , I don't really

45:54

care . Um , so then

45:57

in Sicily , me

46:00

and my partner , we were moving

46:02

to Italy . He's Scottish-Italian

46:04

, so we both

46:06

were like let's move to Italy , and

46:09

we both applied for all these schools all over Italy

46:11

and we ended up both getting jobs , coincidentally

46:14

at the same school in Catania

46:16

, which again was like my gosh

46:18

, if there is something out there , how has this even

46:20

worked out that there are two jobs

46:22

and it turns out the ? Um , I mean

46:26

everyone in school . Then

46:28

I'm like my best friends , um

46:30

, you know , um , I've been working there

46:32

for three years , working with somebody

46:35

from hawaii , somebody from york

46:37

, from it's sicily

46:39

, but from all over the place , you know , and very

46:42

welcoming , not

46:44

a problem . And some of the Sicilian friends

46:46

that we made through some of our other Sicilian

46:49

friends who had never really experienced

46:51

being around gay people before , were curious

46:53

and they asked questions and I was happy

46:55

to answer them , you know , because I think if

46:58

you've never experienced being around gay people , or you

47:00

think , you know , be experienced being around gay people

47:02

. Um , then , yeah , I'm

47:04

happy to sit down , have these conversations and

47:07

and it was fine , and

47:09

we're still all really good friends and

47:11

I'm happy that they did that . So

47:13

, I think , going into education

47:15

now as

47:18

I did , I think , walking

47:21

through doors , you have to make a decision

47:24

because you're

47:26

on display and there are going to be other queer kids

47:29

in that classroom or lecture

47:31

theatre or whatever , and you're

47:33

going to be that someone's light

47:36

. You know , to say , yeah , I am here

47:38

. Visibility is important , so

47:40

we're in the progress flag . You know , I

47:42

have , um , the pride lanyard

47:45

, the progress flag lanyard , and I wear

47:47

every single day when I'm

47:49

on campus . Um , and

47:51

you know , a

47:54

lot of my heterosexual colleagues

47:56

wear it and stuff , which is great

47:58

as well , because it shows allyship , and I think having

48:00

that visibility to say , yeah , we're

48:03

an accepting university , it's great , et cetera

48:05

, I think is fundamental

48:07

. So I would only say

48:10

that if you feel confident or

48:12

comfortable enough at the very beginning to do that , you

48:15

know , take your time , there's no rush . We're

48:17

all different people , we're all individual and

48:20

I think it's about recognising when the time

48:22

is right for you Because

48:24

, you know , as we know , unfortunately

48:27

children , teens or even adults

48:29

can pick on or

48:32

pick up on your kind of vulnerabilities

48:34

Right and mess

48:36

with you , and yeah , it could could

48:38

work out to your disadvantage

48:41

in that way . So make sure you're ready

48:43

, make sure you're comfortable , make sure you're feeling confident

48:45

with it , but remember that you being

48:47

visible is also helping others

48:50

in that room , even if you don't know it . In

48:52

the future they'll think about you like I do

48:54

and I'm

48:56

sure you do too , brian . But yeah

48:59

, that's kind of based on

49:01

my experience and what I think now kind

49:03

of merged together , I guess absolutely

49:06

.

49:06

I think there's a part of your story that I really appreciate

49:08

, which is that you don't have

49:10

to necessarily make a huge deal out of

49:13

your identity .

49:13

You could just go about living your life and people will

49:15

pick up on it um just

49:18

be yourself , you know , and

49:21

and it's yeah

49:24

, no , I'm just gonna say it's also you

49:27

probably recognize this as well , because

49:29

there's a constant it's

49:32

not a battle , but it is tiring constantly

49:34

coming out to new people you meet constantly

49:37

. You know , going to a hotel with your

49:39

partner , oh , you know it's a double bed

49:41

. Yeah , I do know it's a double bed because

49:43

we're we're partners , we're together . You know

49:45

it's situations like that on the phone and

49:48

when I say , oh , my partner's not here at the moment

49:50

, but I'll confirm with you later , oh

49:52

, what time is she home ? And I think , come

49:55

on , you know , train

49:57

your people better . You know , and

49:59

that's what makes me think about working

50:01

in edi , because I really want to . You

50:04

know , even if it's going into private companies like

50:06

hotel chains , whatever to say , this

50:08

is how you should be . You know addressing

50:10

people if they say my partner , you should refer

50:12

back to partner as well , not , you know

50:14

, you assuming pronouns , unless they tell

50:16

you about the pronouns . Then okay , great , you

50:19

know these things .

50:20

Sorry I'm going on a tangent there . No , absolutely I'm

50:23

, I'm here for that . I I am

50:25

tired of that as well , and I think that's something that

50:27

you know . Uh , heterosexual

50:30

people don't have to worry about , they don't

50:32

have to worry about constantly coming out , um

50:34

, and it's something that we have to deal with all

50:36

the time , because I have the same situation

50:38

like , unless I exclusively use

50:40

the word husband and

50:45

even then I'll use that word and

50:47

people will still be like , okay , well , let me know when

50:49

she and

50:59

I'm like no , no , like what the heck ? I said real good , right . So I appreciate that

51:01

, because I think you're absolutely correct . It's

51:04

exhausting because it's constant . Yeah

51:06

, so without diving too much because

51:08

I think this last question is borderline

51:11

close to your experience

51:13

in your doctorate yeah

51:15

, so without diving too much into your own

51:18

research what do you think

51:20

that the academic community can

51:22

do to be more inclusive of 2SLGBTQIA

51:26

plus ?

51:26

people

51:29

. What can academic

51:31

community do ? I

51:36

think this question for me kind

51:40

of takes me to two

51:43

places , and I think encouraging

51:46

I mean education is

51:49

a starting point of where people

51:51

start to see

51:53

different people recognise differences

51:55

and listen to others and

51:57

learn from one another . Kind of peer

52:00

teaching each other within an

52:03

education establishment for me is always

52:05

really important , and I think in

52:08

school and at home . I

52:10

think , yeah

52:14

, the academic community I guess

52:16

could encourage parents

52:19

if it's in high school and you have

52:21

a kind of parents even or parents meeting and

52:23

um even giving

52:25

out information to the parents who may

52:27

not have been educated about the use of pronouns

52:30

, for instance , um or

52:32

what non-binary people um

52:34

may look like , for

52:37

instance , and and I think having

52:40

people educate

52:44

parents , who

52:46

would hopefully in turn then

52:49

speak to

52:56

their children as well

52:58

, would be something that I

53:01

think that

53:03

encouraging

53:06

students to stand up for themselves as well is also

53:08

important and I would hope

53:10

that you know , educators and academics

53:13

and academic community would be in

53:16

a position where they are constantly encouraging

53:18

people to stand up . And yeah

53:21

, I think that's probably

53:23

the more accurate

53:26

answer I could give you .

53:28

Absolutely . At this point in the episode

53:30

, I turn it over to you to ask

53:32

me a question , so take it away

53:35

.

53:37

Yeah , I mean . So this

53:39

is season two , right ? The start of

53:41

season two ? Yeah , why

53:47

? What made

53:49

you initially want to start this podcast

53:52

and what do you hope will

53:55

come out of running

53:57

this podcast for the

53:59

queer community within the

54:02

teaching field ?

54:03

Yeah , so

54:05

when I was living in Texas

54:07

, I had the

54:09

privilege of being nominated

54:12

and then selected as the Teacher of the Year for

54:14

my district in a relatively conservative

54:16

district and what's wild

54:18

for me is thank you , uh

54:21

. What's wild for me is that you know , I teach theater

54:24

, um , and so my

54:26

experience is theatrical and

54:28

whatnot , and what I

54:30

was doing was focusing on inclusivity

54:32

, and so , like , what a powerful message

54:34

, right that . Right you uh

54:37

get selected because of your work on inclusivity

54:40

. Um , and

54:42

that spanned several things . Like I was involved

54:44

in projects on

54:46

the campus that were about , like , creating

54:52

bridges to other communities

54:54

. The school had a

54:56

reputation of being in a bubble

54:58

, and so , like , I

55:00

created with some students a

55:03

weekly TV show called Beyond

55:06

the Bubble , where they

55:08

expand your horizons , kind

55:10

of . And so I was doing

55:12

all of this work and

55:15

throughout my

55:17

time at that school , from the very first month

55:20

of working there , I had

55:22

dealt with some like anti-queer behavior

55:24

, um , yeah

55:27

, and had seen like administrators come

55:29

and go for various reasons , but

55:32

every time we got a new administrator , it was

55:34

like I was dealing with a new person

55:36

who had some some sort of quote

55:40

unquote microaggressions

55:42

towards queer people

55:45

. And

55:47

when I

55:49

got Teacher of the Year , I basically had dealt

55:51

with a bunch of experiences and then found out

55:53

that there were like private

55:56

meetings or

55:58

not necessarily private meetings , but meetings of

56:00

, like school board members

56:02

and school board member candidates

56:05

who were basically running

56:07

on the we're gonna get the queer

56:09

out of the school

56:11

um campaign and I have

56:14

children and so that my children

56:17

went to those schools and , um

56:20

, it was a lot and I was looking around for

56:22

places to like connect

56:24

with other people that had similar stories

56:27

and in the news , like

56:29

monthly at

56:31

the time , you could find some story of a

56:33

queer teacher of the year being fired

56:36

or leaving a school district in the

56:38

united states , um , but

56:40

it was all in the news . There was like no connection

56:42

. So after a year

56:45

of thinking about it , I decided to start

56:47

the podcast and

56:50

I started it .

56:51

Yeah .

56:52

In 2022

56:54

. Did the first season . We're

56:56

in the middle of season two right now , when

56:59

this is being recorded , and this episode will actually

57:01

air towards the end of it . And

57:12

so , middle of season two right now , when

57:14

this is being recorded and this episode will actually air towards the end

57:16

of it . Um , and so I wanted to provide a space where

57:19

people can share their experiences , because right now

57:21

in the us , as well as other places around the world , queer teachers

57:23

are experiencing this . You should not be queer in educational spaces

57:25

. We shouldn't have to know

57:27

, you're queer , you shouldn't be allowed to talk

57:29

about being queer , you shouldn't have

57:31

your partner's picture up

57:33

. You shouldn't , you know , live your

57:35

life as a queer person , because children

57:37

are just too young to know about queerness

57:40

. But , like I knew , I was queer when

57:42

I was four , so give me a break . Exactly

57:45

, and

57:47

so I

57:52

wanted to create a space for people

57:55

to be able to share their stories , and

57:58

the evolution of that is that in January

58:00

of 2024 2024 , so

58:02

just you know a week or two ago when this

58:04

episode was recorded um

58:07

yeah I launched an online

58:09

community where people can connect through

58:11

like discussion boards , and I've

58:13

got like monthly challenges on there , like

58:15

the first month is , you know , meet someone new

58:17

and try to connect with someone new . But

58:19

the goal is to combat

58:22

that feeling of you are

58:24

alone in this experience . Because you're

58:26

not , and

58:29

that's the thing that's so frustrating

58:31

to me is how effective the

58:33

messaging is that you are alone

58:36

. And while there are plenty

58:38

of resources available for

58:41

queer students and organizations

58:43

focused on queer students , there

58:46

are very few focused on queer

58:48

educators and supporting those educators

58:50

, and so my goal is to

58:53

grow this podcast

58:55

into a podcast

58:57

that is a part of a nonprofit organization

58:59

with the goal of supporting queer educators

59:02

in whatever their needs are , with

59:04

grant opportunities for you

59:06

know , extra training on things or

59:09

to bring a guest speaker to their school

59:11

or whatever they need to do . But , um

59:14

, my goal

59:16

is to be there to create a community

59:18

that supports queer educators , because

59:20

we aren't alone and there

59:23

is power in our

59:25

connecting to each other , and

59:27

the more that we do that , the more that we're

59:29

able to raise our voice and push back on everything

59:32

well

59:35

, brian , I mean thank

59:38

you for creating it because , honestly , I

59:40

think , um , from from

59:42

a personal perspective perspective , it's really cathartic

59:44

kind of looking at these things

59:47

and discussing it and realising the importance

59:49

and realising we're not alone and , like you

59:51

said , being able to connect with people .

59:53

you know , now we've connected and I think that

59:55

is . It's just a really wonderful thing to

59:57

to be able to , as you said , have this

59:59

space to talk about and and realise we've

1:00:02

had some similar experiences and , okay

1:00:04

, there's more of us . So , yeah

1:00:06

, thank you for creating it , because I think what you're

1:00:08

doing is absolutely

1:00:11

needed and , like you said , the

1:00:13

focus is on students . Great

1:00:15

, that's wonderful . I'm glad there's a focus on students , but

1:00:18

what about the educators ? So , yeah , thank you

1:00:20

for creating this space for

1:00:22

queer educators as well yeah

1:00:25

, absolutely .

1:00:26

It honestly is a pleasure , mostly because

1:00:28

in creating this community , I

1:00:30

gained from the community

1:00:33

and I've , you know , had conversations with

1:00:35

40 different people from around the world and

1:00:37

it's so far and it's

1:00:39

it's been really nice , because then I'll

1:00:41

think of something and share it with that person

1:00:44

, because now I have this network of people

1:00:47

to talk to about specific things , and

1:00:49

so it's

1:00:51

been just as rewarding as it has been

1:00:53

work . But , that

1:00:56

being said , I want to thank you so much

1:00:58

for joining me today . I really appreciate it

1:01:00

. Thank

1:01:02

you so much for joining me today . I really appreciate it . For those of you , a lot of people

1:01:05

don't know behind the scenes stuff , this was literally just a me sending

1:01:07

him a message on linkedin and being

1:01:09

like hey , I I saw you post

1:01:11

in this queer educators group

1:01:13

. Do you want to be on this podcast

1:01:15

? And like here we are , um

1:01:18

and so I love . That's part

1:01:20

of my love for the internet . But I also grew

1:01:22

up , you know , during the internet being constructed

1:01:24

, so that's yes , yes , yes

1:01:26

so

1:01:31

thank you for joining me today , and then thank

1:01:33

you all at home for listening . Have

1:01:35

a great day thanks

1:01:38

for you thank

1:01:56

you for joining us on this episode

1:01:58

of teaching while queer . Thanks Craig

1:02:00

, wwwteachingwhilequeercom , and hit support the

1:02:02

show . Thanks so much and have

1:02:04

a great day .