0:28

Hello , today I have with me

0:30

Mary Adkins . Mary is

0:32

the mother of one , a writing coach

0:35

, a podcast host and the founder

0:37

of the book Incubator , a 12-month

0:39

program to write , revise

0:41

and pitch your novel or memoir . She

0:43

is the author of the novels when you

0:45

Read this , privilege and Palm

0:47

Beach . Her books have been published in 13

0:50

countries and her essays and reporting

0:52

have appeared in the New York Times , the

0:54

Atlantic Slate and More . A

0:57

graduate of Yale Law School in Duke

0:59

University , she helps aspiring

1:01

authors finish their books with joy and

1:03

clarity . Mary , welcome

1:06

and thank you for joining me . Yeah , I'm

1:08

so glad to be here . Thanks , kelly , me

1:10

too , I'm so glad , especially

1:12

after I read . When you Read this . I'm

1:14

so excited to be able to interview

1:17

you A little bit of a fan . So

1:19

I can't wait to read your other books , but today we're

1:21

here to talk about your birth story and your fertility

1:24

journey and how you have

1:26

figured out how to balance motherhood

1:28

and career , and it sounds

1:31

like you're teaching other moms

1:33

and other people to do that , so I'm just

1:35

really excited to hear all of it . Yeah , me

1:37

too .

1:37

I love talking about this stuff so ready to

1:39

dive in .

1:41

All right , let's do it . So

1:43

you have one son . Tell me about how that

1:46

came about . I mean , I think we all know how it came

1:48

about . Well , I don't know . There's

1:52

like one of two ways .

1:55

Right , yes , I have a five year

1:57

old son named Finn , and

2:00

he was born in New York

2:02

in 2018 . And we

2:04

I was 35 . I

2:07

was three weeks from turning 36 when

2:09

he was born . My husband and

2:11

I we had gotten married when I

2:13

was 33 , two years earlier

2:16

, and we met in New York . We met online

2:18

on OK Cupid , which was like the dating

2:20

site that people were still on back then

2:22

. I don't even know if it still exists , but

2:24

we had . We got married in 2015

2:27

. And we had spent a couple of years , you know

2:29

, being a couple and it was great . And

2:31

I just remember not really having

2:34

the itch to have a baby until

2:37

suddenly I did Like I actually remember

2:39

when it hit me , I was in the gym and

2:41

on the treadmill in our in

2:43

our Queens neighborhood and I was like I

2:46

want to have a baby now . I think it was

2:48

. I saw a commercial or something and I just got

2:50

the baby fever . So when I told him , like I'm

2:52

ready to start trying , he's like oh gosh

2:54

, oh gosh . He was my husband

2:56

. When I met him , he was a professional

2:59

vocalist and a voice teacher and he

3:01

, at this point , was transitioning into medicine

3:03

. Actually , like in his mid 30s

3:05

. He wanted to go to medical school , so

3:08

he and he had a start over from scratch with college

3:10

for to take sciences , science pre-rex

3:12

. So he was a full time student and

3:14

was catering at night and I was like

3:16

trying to make it as a writer and tutoring

3:19

. So life was not easy . We

3:21

did not have a lot of money , so for

3:23

him , the idea of having a child

3:25

was really terrifying and

3:27

I'm not going to say like lie , I mean it like scared

3:30

me a little bit too , but I think it

3:32

. I was just more of the attitude of like look , we're

3:34

going to figure this out , everybody figures it out

3:36

, we will also figure it out . I remember telling

3:38

him , like look , I'm in my mid 30s , like this may take

3:40

us a while . It's like , okay , well , it's

3:42

going to take us a while , let's start . Then

3:44

, of course , when you say that it did not take a

3:46

while , we got

3:48

pregnant the first cycle and the

3:51

pregnancy stuck and

3:54

was relatively seamless

3:56

. I mean , I was diagnosed with gestational

3:58

diabetes at 20 weeks and so needed

4:01

to manage that , but did manage

4:03

that and then , ultimately , was

4:05

induced up in Manhattan in

4:08

April , the beginning of April 2018

4:10

. And we had our son , and

4:12

, apart from the fact that at

4:14

that hospital , at least at the time

4:17

, your partner had

4:19

to go home because you were assigned a

4:21

roommate after birth and

4:23

then you would stay in the room with

4:25

the roommate , which that

4:27

was a little traumatic for me . I'm not going to lie

4:30

, I was not prepared for that and I think if

4:33

I had known what childbirth was actually

4:35

like and what the wake of it was like , I we

4:38

would have found a way to pay the

4:40

I don't know at the time you could pay like $1,000 a night to

4:44

have a private room , which

4:46

sounded absolutely insane to me

4:48

. Like that number . I was like we don't have that

4:50

kind of money , no . But in retrospect

4:52

I'm like , oh , that was really hard to

4:55

be alone after giving birth with

4:57

my baby , not having slept and

5:00

having to basically stay up all night

5:02

because my roommate , who

5:04

also had just had a baby , would

5:06

get up and feed her baby whenever I was trying

5:08

to go to sleep . It was . It was terrible and

5:10

I understand there are space issues , but I I

5:13

feel like now I'm an advocate against this

5:15

Like I think it's absolutely horrible to do this to new

5:18

mothers . It's really terrible

5:20

to do to people . So that was actually kind

5:22

of traumatic , but not for

5:24

any reason other than I was forced to have a roommate and my husband

5:26

had to leave and then came

5:28

in the next morning at eight o'clock with with

5:31

our really close friend , and they had gone

5:33

out for drinks the night before and

5:35

had a full night's sleep . I don't blame

5:37

them . I would have done the same thing

5:39

if I got to leave , but I

5:41

didn't , you know . So , yeah , I mean , that was really the

5:44

birth story . I mean , I think just

5:47

to get like a little deeper here and I'm sure

5:49

many of your guests have

5:51

versions of this but I did

5:53

feel like I went into the hospital

5:56

one person and , like , walked out

5:58

of the hospital a different person and I

6:00

. I do distinctly remember this feeling that morning

6:04

when my husband his name is Lucas

6:06

and our friend Wes came in carrying a Starbucks for me that

6:09

I had asked him to bring and

6:11

we wheeled the

6:13

baby Finn down to the like visitors

6:15

room so that they and we

6:17

were like they're holding him and passing him around . I remember

6:19

this feeling of like , of

6:22

it just feeling so surreal

6:24

that everyone was

6:26

acting like I had not just gone through this

6:28

Absolutely . I keep wanting to use

6:30

the word traumatizing , but I don't know

6:32

if that's the right word

6:35

, but like my body , I still

6:37

was just bleeding profusely

6:39

. I was just in the wake of having

6:41

given birth and

6:44

it was almost like an elephant in the

6:46

room that no one was talking about . Like I just became

6:48

people . I'm like why are people just treating

6:50

me like this didn't just happen to my

6:53

body , like I don't know what I expected

6:55

them to do ? Maybe just ask like , how

6:58

are you doing ?

6:58

Maybe that was it , but act

7:01

like you had a medical procedure or like

7:03

I had a medical procedure . Yes

7:05

, right . And while I want

7:07

to advocate for birth as a natural

7:09

phenomenon and not a medical procedure

7:12

, it is a complete

7:14

metamorphosis of your body and there

7:16

is trauma that is inflicted on your

7:19

body parts , regardless of

7:21

what manner you gave birth .

7:23

And .

7:24

I just I agree . I think that oftentimes what

7:26

you see is just everybody's paying

7:28

attention to the baby and nobody's

7:30

paying attention to the mom .

7:32

The mom , yes

7:35

, and I think part of the surreal thing

7:37

is that if I even

7:39

had a cold , people would be like

7:41

how are you doing , how are you feeling ? And this felt

7:44

so much more dramatic than that

7:46

. It's like I have a gaping hole

7:48

in my body right now

7:50

. I have undergone this , like you said , this

7:52

massive transformation . The fact

7:54

that no one is kind of checking in

7:57

just felt so odd

7:59

, because all the attention

8:01

was on the baby , and that

8:03

was one moment where I felt like , wow

8:06

, I've never experienced anything quite like

8:08

this .

8:08

Yeah , it is really , really odd and I think we can

8:11

definitely do better as a society when it comes to

8:13

checking in on moms , but also I understand

8:15

that it's kind of awkward because of what just happened

8:18

. What do you say sometimes

8:20

? I ? Think people struggle with that especially

8:22

if it was your husband and his friend Right

8:24

, Then he's probably like I

8:26

don't want to ask about that .

8:28

Yeah , they're two men and

8:30

they don't get it . I mean , I don't even feel

8:32

like I got it until I had you

8:34

don't know what it's like until you do it . We don't talk about

8:36

it a lot . We all talk about it .

8:37

Yeah , we're all talking about it . Oh , this is what it's like . Yeah

8:40

, unless you're looking for that information

8:42

. It's not like you know , you don't get a pamphlet in the mail

8:44

. It's like this is what it's like when somebody has given

8:47

birth .

8:48

Be sure to talk about this Exactly

8:50

.

8:51

No , handbook no . So

8:54

you said , you said you had an induction , right , mm-hmm

8:56

. So then do you remember how long

8:58

did that take and what all you went

9:00

through ?

9:01

Yeah , so we came in versus . We were there at five

9:04

and we arrived , you know , a little early

9:06

and we're in the waiting room for a while . And

9:09

then we went back and

9:11

they did they put a balloon in

9:13

my cervix and I forget

9:15

what that's called .

9:16

There's lots of different kinds . Oh , okay

9:19

, there's like a cook's catheter . There's a fully catheter

9:21

. There's a fully balloon .

9:22

Just different brands , and so that

9:25

was . I remember

9:27

that was supposed to sort of cause

9:30

cramping , like some feelings

9:32

of cramping . Well , in my case it caused a

9:34

lot more pain than that . I ended up throwing

9:37

up from the pain actually , which I don't

9:39

really do that , so it was a little bit alarming

9:42

, although it was bonding for my husband and me in

9:45

a way , because he was having that . We would

9:47

make jokes afterward about how I had

9:49

to go to the bathroom and then I started throwing up at the

9:51

same time and he was just like having

9:53

to clean up around me .

9:55

So it was like trying to figure out where to put which

9:57

hole .

9:57

Yeah , exactly , so it was like bonding

10:00

in a way , because he's like I don't know . And then

10:02

just some of the classic they almost felt stereotypical

10:04

kind of couple birth stories where I'm like

10:06

begging him to give me food and he's like I'm

10:08

not , I was told not to and I'm like just stick

10:11

me some crackers because I just was

10:13

so hungry . But anyway , the . I

10:15

don't even remember . I think they gave me pain

10:17

medicine . After that I had an epidural I

10:19

and then they started the pitocin and

10:22

the rest of I mean , the worst

10:25

part was that , that moment in the morning

10:27

.

10:27

And then it was a pretty .

10:29

I slept through a lot of laboring

10:31

because of the epidural and would

10:33

just doze , would chat with my

10:36

mom and sister and Lucas

10:38

, and so it was essentially that

10:40

for most of the day we ended

10:42

up starting to push around seven

10:44

PM , so he'd gotten there around

10:47

five and then pushed around seven , about

10:50

14 hours I guess , and and my son was

10:52

born around eight PM , so

10:54

it was or seven , 40

10:57

, I think . And then the family came

10:59

in to see him and we had tacos . I

11:01

immediately was like someone nice tacos

11:03

from across the street .

11:05

Yeah , yeah , I think that New York

11:07

experience is all right .

11:08

You see that right there , that , like you

11:10

look at the one you're like I want that , go there

11:13

and get me a burrito bowl , yeah Right

11:16

.

11:17

Yeah , that's , we had Wendy's next door when I

11:19

delivered and it was not that that's special

11:21

, but we had an employee discount

11:23

there . Yeah , and in my husband the badge

11:25

and they remembered me because I'd been coming in

11:27

every time I had my ultrasounds

11:30

and scanning and they're like she

11:32

delivered it . She was like so excited

11:34

. They said they sent a bunch

11:36

of junior bacon cheese burgers for the staff and

11:38

everything , so that is

11:40

like an only in New York story

11:42

, you know where you're just like go to that little place

11:45

, that's . You know , wendy's isn't a little place , it's

11:47

a franchise . But whatever you know , the place next

11:49

door and you know , get your

11:51

get your food . Yeah , I love that . Well , that's

11:53

great , I think . As far as the balloon

11:56

goes , I feel like it's either fine

11:58

or just turns into a medieval torture

12:01

device

12:03

. It just kind of depends . And

12:05

I think my theory and this is not

12:07

scientifically proven because I don't , I

12:09

don't know that you can is that I feel like everybody's

12:11

cervical innervation is different

12:13

. Some people have a very sensitive

12:16

cervix , while others that there's

12:18

not a lot going on there . And I think

12:20

that when you're putting like that tension and pressure

12:22

and stretching the cervix , for some

12:24

people it can just be really

12:26

intense . But also what you're doing

12:29

is releasing hormones , because inside

12:31

the cervix you know as your baby's head will

12:33

push on it , there's more hormones released that

12:35

help trigger the labor

12:37

process , and I think that process

12:39

is something that makes people have that

12:42

physiologic reaction of vomiting , because it's

12:44

really common to have someone

12:46

vomit when their baby is super low

12:48

in the pelvis . And I just wonder if that's

12:50

part of the process of

12:52

the cervical balloon , because you're kind of mimicking

12:55

that pressure of the baby's head before

12:57

the baby's head is like down there .

12:59

That's really interesting .

13:00

I mean , that's just my experience , so

13:03

I don't know that there's data on that . That's

13:05

just something that I've observed in the theories that I have

13:07

from observing that . But it is pretty common

13:09

for women to have some sort

13:11

of physiological response to the

13:13

mechanical dilation of the cervical balloon

13:16

, and then just as common for them

13:18

to not really have any response whatsoever . And

13:20

so I'm like why did I caught him here ?

13:22

There's definitely something going on .

13:23

Yeah , why the ?

13:24

variation . I just remembered

13:26

a kind of beautiful moment that I left out

13:28

. Can I share that ? Oh , yeah , go ahead . So

13:31

when he came out , he wasn't

13:33

thriving I forget all the words you

13:36

don't People

13:39

like me do . He was not thriving . So

13:41

they did the thing where they kind of they

13:43

just kind of rushed away with him to make sure

13:45

he was breathing and stuff , so I hadn't held

13:47

him or anything yet , and my OB

13:49

, who I had seen throughout my pregnancy

13:52

, did deliver me because we had scheduled the induction

13:54

. It worked out that way . And I was really glad because

13:56

I really liked her . But this moment in particular

13:58

I've thought about a lot since then and it's

14:01

really special to me and I didn't realize

14:03

in the moment how much I would come to

14:05

really appreciate it . But as

14:07

she was sewing me up and I still

14:09

hadn't had even seen my son yet

14:11

, I hadn't even seen his face , it's just crazy to think

14:13

about . This happened before I had even ever seen

14:16

his face . But she quoted

14:18

to me Khalil Gabran , who

14:20

has a poem on children , and

14:23

the line she quoted to me were your children

14:25

do not belong to you . And I forget

14:28

the exact next line , but the spirit of

14:30

it , which is what I always think about , is like your

14:32

children are on loan to you and

14:34

they actually belong to

14:36

the universe and like you are just

14:38

, they're just in your care for a period

14:41

of time and it's so in

14:43

the moment . You know , I'm just like in

14:45

this stupor or whatever . And so I remember

14:47

thinking , oh , that's lovely , but not fully

14:50

registering . And then of course they hand me my son and

14:52

I'm just like in love and I'm holding him and

14:54

things from there were full

14:56

of activity . But then later

14:58

I went back to that moment

15:01

and I looked up the poem

15:03

and read this little poem and I thought

15:05

about it so many times since

15:07

and how profound that

15:09

was for me in terms of thinking

15:12

about myself as a parent and

15:14

what my responsibility is

15:16

and how I don't own this person

15:18

. Yes , I created this person physically

15:21

, but I just love that idea that

15:23

, like , our children are all alone to us

15:25

and when I've told

15:27

people that particular part of my

15:29

birth story , they're like wow , that was like

15:32

really a gift , that was

15:34

really an offering that she took

15:36

the time to do that in that moment and I'm

15:38

just so appreciative of it .

15:40

Yeah , that's really . That's a really nice thing

15:42

to do , when someone's just kind of sitting there

15:44

unsure of what's going on .

15:46

And would have been worried . I don't know if she was

15:48

doing it to distract me or not , but if

15:50

she was , I appreciate it , because

15:52

I think if we hadn't been talking , I would have been

15:54

like where is he ? Why is what's going on ? Why

15:56

? Is someone and instead I just

15:58

was kind of paying attention to

16:01

. I'm like she's talking to me , I should listen to what she's

16:03

saying , and then he was there , you know

16:05

.

16:05

so yeah , yeah

16:07

, that's really interesting . I had a similar

16:09

. My daughter had a similar response to birth , just

16:11

didn't respond . My

16:14

husband was the one talking to me . He's over there

16:16

and he's , like you know , just telling me what's going on . And

16:18

then suddenly I heard her cry and he

16:20

said , and I could see , and I think either

16:23

he told me or I saw her little hand

16:25

come up and then heard the cry

16:27

, like she just suddenly was like , you know , the life

16:29

was breathe back into her and she didn't need

16:31

a lot of resuscitation . It was just she

16:33

was stunned in that moment

16:35

. You know , and I'm not sure if that's similar to

16:38

what happened with you , sometimes they just don't breathe

16:40

right away and they're just kind of like , yeah

16:42

, so at that

16:44

I mean it's , it's scary and

16:46

having that distraction which

16:48

my husband is always a distraction , he's always talking

16:51

, yeah . And to have something

16:53

like that . I think is real important .

16:54

I really do too , and I don't . This

16:56

is one of those moments where I

16:59

am grateful and retrospect of what

17:01

I did not know , because I

17:03

didn't know until later that he wasn't

17:06

thriving . I just assumed this is what

17:08

they do . They must be just wiping him

17:10

off . I don't think I assumed anything

17:12

was wrong but , like you said , it's so fuzzy

17:14

that it you're kind of like I don't really

17:17

remember what I was thinking . I might not

17:19

have been thinking anything because you're stunned

17:22

, right yeah .

17:23

And even with medical background , it's fuzzy . I

17:25

didn't know a lot when I delivered my first

17:27

, because I was a postpartum nurse , which I totally remember

17:29

, those double rooms , that's oh

17:31

my gosh , did you you ?

17:33

worked in the double room .

17:34

Because I worked there ? No , I didn't . I

17:36

called them when I went into labor and I was like my

17:38

room , oh , you knew

17:40

, you knew . Yeah , I was like no

17:42

way . And then I just remember it

17:45

was just the difference between the two birth

17:47

experiences having worked in postpartum

17:49

and then working in labor and delivery was completely

17:51

different and understanding what was going on . But they're still

17:53

fuzzy . There's still parts that are fuzzy because

17:55

there's just so much going on and it's so

17:57

emotional .

17:59

Yeah , it overwhelms your brain . I actually

18:01

, now that we're talking about it and I'm going

18:03

back , I do . I remember watching

18:05

my husband's face to see because

18:08

I couldn't see the baby , but I could

18:10

see him . I could see my husband's face

18:12

who was watching and , like your

18:14

husband talking through it Lucas

18:17

wasn't talking through it but his face

18:19

looked calm . So I remember

18:22

being like , okay , well , he

18:24

doesn't look alarmed . So I'm going to take

18:26

that as a good sign . I assumed if

18:28

things were bad it would have shown on his

18:30

face .

18:31

Well , it sounds like it all happened in under five minutes , and

18:33

that's when we do the Apgar scores . So those are

18:35

the like . The first one maybe wasn't

18:37

as high as expected

18:40

, and then maybe the second one , by the five minute period

18:42

, was fine . So or

18:44

sometimes you know that first minute that can

18:46

seem like forever . Yeah , it might have been one minute so who

18:49

knows how long it might have been one minute . Because

18:51

sometimes they don't respond immediately

18:53

. They kind of look alarm , alarming

18:55

, like their physique is alarming

18:57

, and so you know , then they just

18:59

take him to the warmer to do a couple of things and make sure

19:02

, just so that they can have everything

19:04

there to resuscitate if necessary . And

19:06

then oh baby is like oh , wait a minute , what are

19:08

you doing to me ? And then you know I'm good . So

19:11

yeah , I don't know if they

19:13

debriefed you on what happened , but just

19:15

guessing , those are some possibilities

19:17

.

19:18

They were pretty vague , I remember it might

19:20

have been that , just because I remember them being like yeah

19:22

, at first it was like wasn't breathing

19:24

, but now we're good . So it was like oh OK

19:26

. Like basically it was like now we're good , like

19:29

OK , I'm just going to assume things

19:31

are fine now .

19:33

And there's been kind of an evolution and I just

19:35

remember New York being real procedure

19:37

oriented in the hospitals versus

19:40

some of the places that I'm working here

19:42

they're trying to really be a little bit more

19:44

. I mean , I work with midwives now and they try to

19:46

be a little bit more holistic . But you

19:48

know , just space is such an issue in New York . They just

19:50

want to get things done . So I

19:53

think at the time if I remember

19:55

so , my daughter was born in 2015 , there

19:57

wasn't as much emphasis

20:00

on things like skin to skin and

20:02

the golden hour , and maybe in that three

20:05

year period things changed , because I know that by 2018

20:08

, when I was here , we did it a little bit

20:10

differently , but still there's been an evolution

20:12

.

20:12

Yeah .

20:13

I just remember there was so much more like

20:15

put the baby on the warmer , do all the things

20:17

, then give the baby to mom , then have

20:19

the baby go get a bath and all

20:21

that stuff when I was in New York versus

20:24

here .

20:25

So we did promptly do skin to skin

20:27

and then my husband also did skin to skin

20:29

. Oh nice , yeah . So

20:32

we . Once he was okay

20:34

and breathing . I remember

20:36

him being with us for what felt like quite a while

20:38

, like through the tacos and everything .

20:41

Through the tacos . Yeah , good

20:44

, so you weren't really separated . Did

20:46

you get separated before you went to postpartum ?

22:31

I did ? Yeah , I did . But it

22:33

was like it felt like after , like , my dad had showed

22:36

up with the tacos , my parents had held him

22:38

, my sister had held him , we had done

22:40

skin to skin , lucas did skin to skin , and then at some

22:42

point it was like , okay , we're going to take him

22:44

and then you're going to go , and it was like okay

22:46

. So I don't even , like we said , I think they

22:48

feel like time warps in this situation , but

22:51

it's like , was that 30 minutes or

22:53

an hour ? Probably not an hour . I

22:55

don't think they gave us the full hour , but it was probably like

22:57

30 , 40 minutes .

22:58

It could have been and it just depending on

23:00

the day and the load of babies

23:03

in the nursery , that had just been more they may have

23:05

waited . Because you only have a couple nurses

23:07

doing all that stuff . So if they're backed up they probably wouldn't

23:09

have taken your baby . So then afterwards

23:12

you went home . We already talked

23:14

about how your hospital stay wasn't exactly

23:16

what you're hoping for . So what was that transition like ?

23:18

for you . So I was terrified

23:20

we were going to break him , you know , because he's so little

23:22

. So

23:24

we did spend a stupid

23:27

amount of money I think it cost over $100

23:29

. But like I got some car service

23:32

that I didn't want to take him home in a regular cab

23:34

, I was like , absolutely not , we can't do it

23:36

. Like we need some . So I booked

23:38

some fancy car service that's specialized in

23:40

taking babies home from the hospital with their parents

23:42

, and since we had to go

23:44

all the way from Manhattan to Queens , it was really expensive

23:47

. But whatever money well spent , because

23:49

it relaxed me that it was this like

23:51

massive SUV . We

23:53

had our own little infant car seat , but I didn't

23:56

even know . I remember the driver showing us

23:58

how to . We didn't know how to work it , so the driver's

24:00

like do that . So we went home and

24:03

I , my gosh , the breastfeeding

24:05

was a thing . It was a thing for me it was

24:07

real hard . It was in the hospital

24:09

. It wasn't really working . We had a lactation consultant

24:12

come and put on the , this

24:14

little thing that assists the baby

24:16

I forget what that's called , but it looks

24:18

sort of like a shield , a nipple

24:20

shield . So that was helping

24:23

. But he

24:25

was not getting quite enough food

24:27

in the hospital so we did have to supplement

24:29

with formula . So when

24:32

I got home I was

24:34

so terrified I was very

24:36

pulled . I was pulled in different

24:38

directions on one hand , like obviously what mattered

24:41

to me was that he had enough nutrients . On

24:43

the other , I really wanted

24:45

to breastfeed and I felt like , since he

24:47

was kind of breastfeeding

24:49

, there had to be a way that we could make it fully

24:52

work and not just partially work . And

24:55

the lactation consultant at the hospital had

24:57

sort of whispered to me like he has a tongue

24:59

tie . I was like I'm gonna nerves unless you

25:01

clip that tongue tie . I'm like why is she whispering

25:03

?

25:04

She was like it's controversial , for

25:06

I don't even know why . I don't know why they're

25:08

controversial .

25:09

She goes , you have to go to Long Island , Literally

25:12

like whispering to me and write down this name . She's like they only

25:14

do this in Long Island . I'm like what do they only do

25:16

in Long Island ? Why did it

25:19

feel ? It felt , yeah , it felt

25:21

like weirdly secretive

25:23

and I didn't understand why it was a secret

25:26

. So I ended up we

25:28

went home , still not nursing

25:30

enough . I ordered the scale where you

25:32

could measure it . put the baby on it to see

25:34

how many ounces of

25:36

food he had gotten , because they're so little that

25:38

if they ate more ounces you could actually see that

25:40

change in weight . So I'm like

25:42

he's not getting enough food . So

25:44

we booked the man in Long Island who does the time

25:46

tie surgery . We booked the man in Long

25:48

Island and rented a car . And

25:51

by this point he's like a week or two old and

25:54

I've been trying , he's not with

25:56

that . We have the nipple shield , my nipples were bleeding

25:58

and all that , but I just really wanted it to work

26:00

and so we went out there and he

26:02

clipped the tongue . I faced the other direction

26:04

, I was sobbing , I couldn't

26:07

handle it . I couldn't believe

26:09

we were doing surgery on the week old baby . I

26:11

felt really guilty about it . And then

26:14

, but immediately after

26:16

, he did start nursing without the

26:18

nipple shield . So it was like oh , oh

26:20

, my gosh , oh my gosh . It was so happy . And

26:22

then I ended up . I breastfed for four

26:24

months . We pretty much

26:27

that whole time , supplemented with formula . There

26:29

was a very short period of time where he was actually

26:31

getting enough , but we did kind of

26:33

both the whole time , which I

26:35

, in retrospect , I feel

26:37

like if I had ended up having a second

26:39

child , I would have been much more open to that

26:42

, because it

26:44

really did help with taking turns at

26:46

night . I didn't have to necessarily

26:48

have pumped as much as Finn would need

26:50

. This could give him formula at night and

26:52

I could actually get some sleep . So that was really

26:55

helpful and that's ultimately why I ended up

26:57

stopping breastfeeding because it was like I'm

26:59

just going to need more sleep than this . The waking

27:01

up and by that point he was sleeping

27:04

a lot more , so it was much more like I

27:06

was getting up to pump , or

27:08

because my breasts were hurting and

27:10

it was like I think I'm done with that . So

27:13

I stopped and that was pretty . That

27:16

was a good choice . I remember feeling like

27:18

I think I made the right choice

27:20

for me to stop at four months

27:22

.

27:22

Well , if he's sleeping through the night . And I think it's all

27:24

so individual because both my kids were so different

27:26

and everybody has to , just kind of factor in what's

27:29

working for them to decide . I mean , just because

27:31

it's not working , yeah exactly . That's

27:34

what's important .

27:34

Yeah , and in retrospect I look back on that and it's

27:37

like what , that sort of obsession with

27:39

breastfeeding I don't really know how to

27:41

unpack where that was coming from . Was

27:43

it cultural pressure ? Why was I

27:45

putting that pressure on myself ? And

27:48

I mean , I don't know

27:50

, and I think probably it was cultural

27:53

pressure . It was just this assumption

27:55

of it's better to breastfeed . So I

27:57

have to do that . Of course I have to do that

27:59

and I think it was not

28:02

that it's their fault at all , but

28:04

it was unintentionally exacerbated

28:07

by the . I ended up hiring two more

28:09

lactation consultants who came to our house

28:11

afterward . My insurance covered one

28:13

and then when that didn't really help

28:16

, I like paid out of pocket for the other

28:18

one . It was someone everyone recommended and so these

28:20

people would come . So in

28:22

total I saw three lactation consultants and

28:24

because it's their job , I get

28:26

it . They want you to breastfeed more than

28:28

anything because that's their job , right

28:30

. But I remember at one point

28:33

my mom one of the lactation

28:35

consultants was in our apartment . We lived in this , you

28:37

know , new York , so small apartment in

28:39

Queens . So my mom was kind

28:41

of trying to give me personal space with this lactation

28:44

consultant , but she could hear everything even

28:46

from the other room and

28:48

my mom was sending me these texts

28:51

that were basically like you

28:53

know , fed is best . Essentially , she's like . She's

28:55

like you don't have to do anything . This woman is saying

28:58

this woman is obsessed with you breastfeeding

29:00

. It's okay if you don't want to do any

29:02

of this . I remember really appreciating

29:04

it at the time but also being like , okay , mom , like I can't

29:07

read these texts and work with this woman at

29:09

the same time , but it was so well-meaning . It

29:11

was my mom basically being like I think

29:13

she was just worried about me . She's like you don't

29:15

have to do this , like if it's not working

29:17

, you can let this go . I

29:20

think it ended up sort of snowballing

29:22

because I think once you at least

29:24

for me once I committed to being on the breastfeeding

29:27

wagon and I'm like I want to nurse . Then

29:29

there are people there whose intention

29:32

is to help you and they do help you , but

29:34

they're all in also on like making

29:36

that work . So everybody ends up having

29:39

this very single focus on nursing

29:41

at all costs and it can

29:43

get a little bit out of control . I think in my

29:45

case it did get a little bit out of control , and

29:48

by out of control I mean just like a little bit obsessive

29:50

seeing all the specialists charting

29:53

like how much formula has he had versus breast

29:55

milk ? I need him to have more breast milk tomorrow than

29:57

he did today .

29:58

Just like getting a little bit obsessive in

30:00

a way that probably this wasn't

30:02

necessary , right , yeah , so

30:06

what do you truly , in your core , want to do

30:08

? If that's the kind of a dedication

30:10

, because it's always , it's a challenge

30:13

, there's going to be a challenge there , right

30:15

? It's not the easiest form

30:17

of feeding .

30:18

So it is most of the time You'd say a lot of the time

30:20

it's hard .

30:22

Most of the time there is some sort

30:24

of challenge because we aren't , I think , because

30:27

we don't live in the village

30:29

the proverbial village anymore , right , we're

30:31

not watching our sisters and mothers

30:33

and aunties and everybody breastfeed

30:36

like it's a normal thing . We

30:40

don't do that on the day-to-day basis . Right

30:42

, we all have to overcome the

30:44

learning hurdle , and for some it's easier

30:47

than others , but I feel like there's always

30:49

a challenge . Every single mom that I help

30:51

breastfeed for the first time is

30:53

like what am I doing ? And neither does the baby

30:55

, because the baby has to learn as well . So there's always

30:57

going to be a challenge to overcome the breastfeeding

31:00

hurdle . And

31:02

for you there are additional challenges because of the

31:04

tongue tie and then the imbalance

31:06

between supply and demand . And

31:09

so if that's what you truly want , if that's where

31:11

you want to focus your energy , that's

31:13

fine . If it's not working out absolutely

31:16

, I think everybody needs to

31:18

find that balance and I think everybody needs to

31:20

feel empowered to find

31:23

what works for them and

31:25

just utilize the resources with

31:27

an open mind , which is so hard when you're

31:30

hormonal and you have this tiny

31:32

human that you're trying to do the best

31:34

. They say breast is best

31:36

. They say that right , but what that

31:38

means is nutritionally , that is

31:40

what is created for your baby . It's

31:43

considered to be nutritionally perfect . Air

31:45

quotes right , we are trying to mimic

31:48

that air quote perfection

31:50

with formula , and

31:52

even formula companies will say

31:54

we haven't gotten there , but we are

31:57

feeding our baby , we are giving

31:59

the best nutrition that is available

32:01

. Babies have been getting some sort of supplementation

32:04

since the beginning of time , otherwise they would not have

32:06

survived right , whether it was barley water , which

32:08

is apparently what my mom got as

32:10

a kid or something like that before

32:13

there was formula , whether it's a

32:15

wet nurse , because there's people that were just

32:17

professional breast feeders Professional

32:20

is probably a bad word , I think most of the time they were

32:22

, it was either slavery or indentured

32:24

servitude . But from the beginning of

32:26

time there's been some sort of supplementation for

32:29

the actual mother's milk , and

32:31

so to think that we are failing as

32:33

mothers because we have utilized

32:35

supplementation is , I think

32:37

, not fair and being able

32:39

to utilize our resources . I don't know

32:41

a whole lot about it , but I know that there are donor

32:43

milk companies and I know hospitals will

32:45

have donor milk for babies

32:47

in the NICU and there's just there's so many

32:50

options out there . If it's your passion , yes

32:52

, breast feed absolutely . You know I

32:54

utilize my resources to be able to

32:56

overcome those hurdles . It was frustrating but I

32:58

was glad I did it and I tried not to be

33:00

too obsessive and it was just . It was hard work for

33:02

the first year or so when I was doing it . But

33:04

I don't think any less of people that

33:07

choose formula , because you

33:09

have to have your sanity , you have

33:11

to be a mother to your child and you have to be

33:13

a human being and you have to make life

33:15

work . So I love that you're able

33:18

to have zoomed out and

33:20

look and said you know ? this isn't the best . I

33:22

need to be a human and found a solution

33:25

. That's what we need to do as mothers we need to

33:27

zoom out , look at the whole situation in

33:29

general during this whole time that

33:31

we , our children , are on loan to us , as you

33:33

mentioned , and decide what works

33:35

for the family and what works best for

33:37

everyone , and try to work

33:39

with that , because the time breastfeeding is one

33:41

of those big hurdles and deciding how to feed your baby

33:44

is like one of those first hurdles that you have to

33:46

decide how you're going to handle .

33:47

I love that , the way you put that .

33:49

I feel like we really overcomplicate it

33:51

and I'm guilty of it . You know we want what's

33:53

best for our kids , but at the end of

33:55

the day , we have to also think about what's best for everyone

33:57

that's involved . So then you were

33:59

doing all the tutoring and writing

34:02

and all that stuff , while

34:05

trying to overcome this hurdle and

34:07

figuring out what's best for you and baby

34:09

. How was the transition from

34:11

? I don't know if you did you have maternity leave . It

34:14

sounds like you did in the penitent .

34:16

So this was really interesting because this

34:18

part actually forms the basis of everything

34:20

of what I do now , which is teaching

34:22

people to write their books . So

34:24

my first novel I wrote

34:26

, the one that you've listened to . I wrote

34:29

that one over about six years . I

34:31

wasn't for most of that I was dating

34:33

but like I wasn't married , I wasn't with my husband , I

34:35

didn't have a kid . A lot of it I was single . So

34:37

I don't know . I had a lot of time . I was married

34:39

at night so I would spend hours a

34:42

day working on this book . The luxury

34:44

of that . I didn't think of it as a luxury at the time

34:46

, but I had the luxury of time and

34:48

the way that traditional publishing works

34:51

for fiction is . Once you've sold your first novel

34:53

, you have the option of selling subsequent novels

34:55

on a proposal . So you basically just send

34:57

in a description of it and maybe a sample chapter

35:00

or two and your editor may just buy it before

35:02

you've even written it . So when

35:04

I had seen the year

35:06

before I had accepted a full-time

35:08

position for the first time in many years at

35:10

the tutoring company where I worked , so

35:13

that we could have health benefits , so that

35:15

I could have a baby and fortunately

35:17

it had . Like I said , we got pregnant pretty

35:19

fast . The timing worked out really well . I qualified

35:22

for a maternity leave , I went on the

35:24

parental leave and it was , I

35:26

think , 11 weeks or like eight weeks

35:28

paid , but then like four more weeks

35:30

if I needed it , but essentially like , oh

35:33

, I could have up to 11 or 12 weeks

35:35

and my husband was in full-time

35:37

school , so it was also

35:39

really helpful for paying our bills . Well

35:41

, the night that Finn was born , literally

35:44

I was in my hospital bed the next morning

35:46

and I opened my emails and

35:48

my second novel , privilege , had

35:50

sold , but on a proposal , so

35:53

meaning I had to write it . So I basically had

35:55

a book , contract and money , which

35:57

was great given we had just had a baby , but

36:00

I had to actually write the book . And

36:02

so I remember deciding

36:04

okay , I'm going to give myself

36:07

four weeks just to

36:09

be a mom of a newborn baby and like , figure

36:11

that out , and then I will spend the next

36:13

eight weeks writing this book because I

36:15

have to go back to work and

36:17

this full-time job and I was

36:19

not going to have a full-time job in a newborn

36:22

and write a book . I know I can juggle a lot

36:24

of things , but that's like too many

36:26

things for a person . So I'm like this

36:28

will be great . I'm going to have four weeks and then I'm going

36:30

to spend the next eight weeks writing the draft . Of

36:33

course I knew I would need to revise , but

36:35

I've always kind of enjoyed revision . I'm like I

36:38

can manage revision while I'm back at work , but I

36:40

don't know that I can generate the whole novel

36:42

while I'm at work . So I

36:44

did that and this time the thing

36:46

that I really love about how

36:48

the timing worked out is that

36:50

it really it forced me to come up with a process

36:53

for writing a novel , because I had

36:55

to write it in a couple of hours

36:57

a day when either my mom

36:59

, my husband or my friend

37:01

who I hired could watch

37:04

Finn and I was still

37:07

nursing at that point . Because I nursed until it was four

37:09

months , I couldn't be gone for

37:11

very long or I would need to pump or nurse and

37:14

I didn't realize that . So if people don't realize this , probably

37:16

if they're listening they probably do , but when

37:18

you're nursing it's really you only have

37:20

like three hours two to three

37:23

hours .

37:23

Two to three hours yes , you have to do something

37:26

.

37:26

Yeah , it's fast man

37:28

. I remember we went out my birthday

37:30

. Finn was born April 3rd and my birthday is April

37:32

30th . So on my birthday

37:35

, lucas and I went out . He's

37:37

like I'm going to take you shopping , we'll get you a dress and we'll

37:39

go to dinner . Lovely idea

37:41

, but two hours in it sounds like a

37:43

lot in New York . It is Two hours in

37:45

, I'm like my boobs are exploding and

37:48

I didn't know that yet because I had just hadn't

37:50

tried that . So I went into

37:52

a CVS and got a manual pump

37:54

for like $19 and

37:56

we went to Rosa Mexicana , which is our favorite Mexican

37:58

restaurant , and I just like went to the bathroom

38:01

and just manually pumped my boobs

38:03

just so I could have dinner

38:05

. I mean not even to save the milk , it

38:07

was just like I just can't sit here because it hurts

38:09

. Right , I mean it starts to hurt , given

38:12

the nursing situation and then also

38:14

just childcare , I just I would have these sort

38:16

of like two hours every day

38:18

tops where I could , and

38:20

I was like I have to do this , I have to write in two

38:22

hours a day and eight weeks I have to write a novel . So

38:24

how do I do this ? So I had to make a plan and

38:27

it works , actually did it and

38:29

it was really cool in a way

38:31

to kind of have to figure out to use my

38:34

the part of my brain I had never applied to creativity

38:36

, which is almost like project management . It's

38:38

like , okay , well , if this were a work project

38:41

and I had two hours a day for eight weeks to do

38:43

it , how would I break it down ? Let me do it

38:45

that way , but that's how that . That's how

38:47

I got that done and

38:49

it was cool . It really was

38:51

. It was like a , and I think ultimately

38:54

it was really good for me . I didn't

38:56

realize that until later . We just mentioned

38:58

it , but he was like I think the fact that you had

39:00

this assignment to write a novel

39:03

, you got the assignment the day you had a baby

39:05

, but you didn't start it till a couple of weeks later

39:07

. I think it was really good for your mental health

39:09

because it forced me to do what I

39:11

loved doing , even before I had a kid

39:13

which was writing . And I don't know , I

39:16

don't know when I would have gone back to it if I

39:18

had just been on my own divide . I

39:20

know like I don't know , I don't think it would

39:22

have been that early . I'm pretty sure about that

39:24

because , because I was tired

39:26

, right Like on top of everything

39:29

else . Yeah , you have another purpose

39:31

outside of taking care of this tiny human that you just

39:33

created .

39:34

It's interesting how everybody manages their mental

39:36

health after having their first child

39:38

. I've had other mothers say that doing some

39:40

sort of work connecting with the

39:42

outside world or their passion has

39:44

actually helped , and some have found

39:47

that to be overwhelming . So

39:49

it's just so important to

39:51

see what feels best for you and

39:54

it's amazing that that worked for you . I'm listening

39:56

to this story , thinking , okay , so how did you manage

39:58

to do laundry ? Because that's what I did . I feel

40:00

like that's what I was doing in that two hours , especially in New York

40:02

, like you have to wheel it down the street if you don't have it in the

40:04

building .

40:06

We paid , we did the hiring thing

40:08

.

40:08

Okay , cool , not the whole time and we left

40:10

in New York . I hope you hired for that .

40:13

But yeah , in those months I would just drop it off

40:15

and pick it up around the corner .

40:17

Yeah , oh , nice . And

40:19

we had the building had a

40:21

washing machine that was half the time broken , gosh

40:23

or in use , right

40:26

, you know , it was like always , just this okay

40:28

, strap on the baby and see if the laundry

40:30

machine is actually available . And

40:32

then there's also . We had a huge dog and a cat

40:35

. Oh , my God , I love the dog .

40:37

Strap on the baby , go walk the dog while the laundry's going yeah , right

40:39

.

40:41

I mean , I was like , wow , sitting down to write would have been such a challenge

40:43

for me , it was a challenge . Yeah , I

40:45

mean I'm not going to discount that it was a challenge , I'm sure it was , but

40:47

it just takes . It takes a lot of everything

40:49

in that city , takes so much .

40:51

So much planning , interesting , like

40:54

. I remember when he was I'd

40:56

look back at pictures of it now and I think

40:58

he was maybe two months old and I was still

41:00

in maternity leave but I had friends , family

41:02

friends come to New York and stay in Manhattan

41:04

and they're like will you bring Finn in to

41:07

meet us for lunch ? And I'm like , okay

41:09

, this will be fun and it'll be like his

41:11

first subway ride and

41:13

it was the longest day of my life . I

41:15

remember it just be like I will

41:17

never do this again . He has to get older

41:19

, it's two and I have to have another adult

41:21

with me , like just strapping him

41:23

on . And then it was . I remember standing

41:26

on the platform , because the heat in New York

41:28

on a subway platform is really bad

41:30

. It's like very humid , sweltering

41:32

and just being like what is too hot for

41:34

a baby . How long do I wait ? Do I get

41:36

on the train ? Do I tell them I'm not coming ? Like this

41:38

seems like it's too hot . Then , finally

41:40

, the train comes . I'm like , okay , well , we're in there conditioning

41:43

. But I remember going

41:45

to this hamburger place and they were so

41:47

nice , they were just family friends . I hadn't seen them in a long time

41:49

and like not even being able to pay

41:52

attention to the conversation we were having

41:54

, because I was thinking about

41:56

all the things you know , like when is he going

41:58

to have to eat next ? Are we going to get home by

42:00

nap time ? I'm going to have to leave soon

42:02

if I'm going to have time to nurse before nap time

42:05

. It was just there's so

42:07

much timing wise

42:09

that goes into the new

42:11

, those early months . And then you layer

42:13

on top of that a city like New York

42:15

where it takes anywhere from 35

42:18

minutes to an hour to

42:21

get from one borough to the next

42:23

. And now I know better . If

42:26

I go visit friends in New York who have had babies , I'm

42:28

like I will not ask you to come to a different borough

42:30

. I will come to you or I'll just see you next time

42:32

.

42:34

Yeah , I was pretty lucky . I was one of the

42:36

last in my friend group to have a

42:38

baby . I was 36 . Yeah , like you , when

42:40

my daughter was born and everybody just was like

42:43

I'm coming over . Yeah right , they

42:45

could only bring you food they knew and

42:48

do not clean yes , right

42:50

. And it was like , if you feel

42:52

up to taking a walk

42:54

with us , that would be great . If not , we're just going

42:56

to sit and talk and I was like wow , like perfect

42:59

, this is nice . But I so appreciate

43:01

it because that helped me frame my expectation

43:03

of new . I mean , just like your experience helped

43:06

you frame your expectation of new moms . Mine

43:08

was just oh , this was what was done

43:10

for me , this was the kindness that was done for me

43:12

. So I'm going to extend it to all new moms

43:14

as well , because I just think that people

43:17

forget logistics and all that stuff .

43:19

Yeah , exactly , you forget house . I mean

43:21

, I saw on Meem the other day . That's like . The

43:24

caption was like new parents and

43:26

they're like want to meet for dinner , like see you there

43:28

at 4.30 . But that's when you

43:30

have to do it , because I saw that too . Otherwise

43:33

it's like that's where you fit in

43:35

the meal . We actually still do that and he's

43:37

fine , yeah .

43:39

Right . And then you have to plan you're

43:42

going to pump , you're going to change them , you're

43:44

going to grab all the bags , you're going to have all the things . So

43:47

the whole process to be able to get to that

43:49

meal at 4.30 is like a two , one

43:51

and a half to two hour process . And then

43:53

you get there , you get a 30 minute meal and you're like peace

43:55

out . We got to go . I

43:58

had waiters that were like we love new parents , we

44:00

love them Because most of the time they just come in

44:02

, get their food , they get a drink and

44:04

they make a suit , they

44:06

give us a nice tip and then they just whole

44:09

ass out of there . Oh my , gosh . As

44:12

soon as that baby starts to melt down .

44:13

Yes , they always get alcohol , which ups

44:15

the bill , and they are in

44:18

and out .

44:20

So then you mentioned that you had some fertility

44:22

struggles after your first

44:24

was born . I think a lot of my

44:27

audience would identify with that and would

44:29

want to hear how you manage those

44:31

fertility troubles . So if you're open to talking

44:33

to that , I'd like to hear that story .

44:34

Yeah , so we I mean he was

44:36

born in 2018 . In 2019

44:39

, we moved to Nashville , tennessee

44:41

, so my husband could start graduate school

44:43

and then , of course , the pandemic started in 2020

44:45

. So , between Lucas

44:47

being in grad school and having a toddler

44:50

at home and the pandemic , I think

44:52

time just sort of stopped . You know , and

44:54

I maybe I think a lot of people probably had

44:56

that experience in the pandemic , but we knew

44:58

we wanted at least a second child

45:00

, probably just one more , but it just didn't

45:02

even seem like an option to try to

45:04

get pregnant again . Life was hard

45:06

. It was really hard , and it was hard already

45:09

. It truly didn't even cross

45:12

my mind . To be honest . It was like

45:14

this we just have to make it through this

45:16

. Having a toddler at home

45:18

and one person in grad school and one person supporting

45:20

the family and being in a pandemic in

45:22

a new city where we knew no one . It was just

45:24

really tough . It was definitely the toughest years of

45:26

our marriage and so , coming out

45:28

of that , he graduated . It was a two-year

45:31

grad program and he graduated in May 2021

45:33

. And that was also right around the time things

45:36

were starting to look up kind of pandemic-wise

45:38

. People were booking travel again , people

45:40

were getting vaccinated and I was older

45:42

. I mean , we both were older , but I

45:44

was 38 , approaching 39

45:46

. And it was like , okay , well , this seems

45:48

like the time Now this feels like the right time

45:51

let's start trying again . We decided

45:53

to start trying that summer but , as life would

45:55

have it , we got pregnant when we

45:57

were on a Mexican vacation celebrating

45:59

his graduation from graduate school . And

46:02

, long story short , over

46:04

the next nine months , I

46:06

had three miscarriages . I got pregnant

46:08

three times and miscarried three times , and

46:11

then we decided to try IVF

46:13

. It did not work for us and

46:15

we ended up deciding

46:18

to stop the fertility

46:20

journey altogether and to

46:22

be a family of three , which is where

46:24

we've landed . But that was , it was

46:26

really tough . I mean , it was . To be

46:28

honest , it was the hardest thing I've ever

46:30

gone through . It was the most difficult year of my

46:32

life , and I don't know that

46:34

he would say the same thing , but he might . I mean

46:36

, it was . It was really tough for him

46:38

too . He's had a tougher life than me , so that's

46:41

why I don't know that he would say it was the worst , but

46:44

it was hard for both of us .

46:46

Yeah , he also didn't have to go through the physical . It's

46:48

different for him parts of that . So

46:50

that's yeah , I think I mean that's

46:52

part of what's so difficult about it is because

46:55

you're going through the physical aspect of

46:57

it as well , and especially I mean miscarriages

47:00

alone , I would imagine . Did you have to have any procedures

47:02

with the miscarriages ? Yeah , I had a .

47:04

DNC with the third

47:06

one . All three of them were missed miscarriages

47:09

, so that's the term . I didn't know . I

47:11

think part of what was so traumatic about all

47:13

of this for me was that I knew nothing about

47:15

miscarriages . I didn't even realize

47:17

how many people I knew had miscarried . I thought I knew

47:19

one person who had miscarried , because no one talks

47:21

about it and so I didn't even

47:24

know a missed miscarriage could happen . I

47:26

didn't know it was called that . But it's

47:28

a missed miscarriage when you , your body , doesn't

47:30

know it's miscarried yet , like it's still things

47:32

. That's pregnant , so you haven't bled , but

47:35

you go to typically and what happened

47:37

with us is you get an appointment to get an ultrasound

47:39

and you find out there's no heartbeat . So it's at

47:42

that point . It ends up being called another

47:44

term . I'm like what is the term for what's happening

47:46

to me ? Have I already miscarried ? Have I not miscarried

47:48

? I haven't bled yet , and the term is medical

47:50

management of missed miscarriage , which

47:53

is like a weird sad tongue twister

47:55

and also not even a term

47:57

. It's just like a flip the phrase . There was so

47:59

much that was surreal and knew about it

48:01

to me and that was one element that felt

48:03

. I remember at one point thinking it's kind of sitting

48:06

that there's not even really a word for

48:08

what's happening to me right now , because that's

48:10

kind of what it feels like in my body too , like

48:12

I don't even know how to understand what this is

48:15

. But yes , I had the DNC

48:17

for the third one and then

48:19

for the other two , took medicine

48:21

to kind of accelerate the bleeding

48:23

, and I forget the name of the medication

48:26

. I can never pronounce something I cannot pronounce . That's what

48:28

I remember .

48:28

Yeah , there's a couple of things . Most of them are hard to pronounce

48:30

. So then did you for the first two , did you

48:32

were you at home for that , or did you have to go to the hospital

48:35

for that ?

48:35

For the first two I was at home . I mean both

48:37

of those . We just kind of went to a routine ultrasound

48:40

and found out , and then was

48:42

yeah , and then basically took the medicine

48:44

. I mean , interestingly , for the second

48:47

one , I started to bleed before I even took

48:49

the medicine , but I was still supposed

48:51

to take it , even if I did start to bleed , because

48:53

it could assist in the process . So

48:56

I did so . I guess it was still a

48:58

misdemeanour because I still found out about it before

49:00

I bled , but I just I ended up . Incidentally

49:03

, I happened to start bleeding the next day

49:05

but I was only in the hospital .

49:07

For the third one so then , what happened with the third one

49:09

, where you ended up needing to go to the hospital

49:11

? So did it start off the same way ?

49:13

It was also missed . The third one , frankly

49:15

, was the hardest , and not just because it was the

49:17

well , they're all in different ways but

49:19

the third one was the most kind of devastating

49:22

because this third one , we had had

49:24

several ultrasound appointments and the heartbeat had

49:26

been normal . So the third one was the most

49:28

shocking because in the others there

49:31

was never anything to give us hope other

49:33

than the fact that we were pregnant . And it was like , hopefully

49:36

we'll be optimistic , because

49:38

in my first pregnancy that year we

49:40

had an abnormal ultrasound first

49:42

. So then the follow-up confirmed

49:45

that I had miscarried . So

49:47

I wouldn't say I was prepared for it , but there

49:49

had been a red flag , so to speak . And

49:51

but for the third one there had been

49:53

no red flags , there had only been green flags , and

49:56

so it really fell Like

49:59

. I remember the feeling right

50:01

now , sitting on the table and just being like are you

50:03

kidding me ? Are you kidding me ? How

50:05

? How is this happening ? It was going

50:07

so well . And it's funny

50:09

because a couple of people have said to me like how did

50:12

you have so much hope after the first two ? And I

50:14

don't know . I mean , I think in some ways

50:16

I've always been an optimistic

50:19

person , but I think I also

50:21

statistics were on my side

50:23

. I mean , it was like well , very , very

50:25

few people have three of these in a row , and

50:28

I've had two , so probably

50:30

I'm not going to have another one .

50:31

Especially after having a successful delivery

50:33

before . Yeah .

50:34

Like I did not feel irrational

50:37

to have hope . It felt very sensical

50:40

to have hope , and especially after

50:42

a couple of normal ultrasound . So we

50:44

ended up deciding , though , to do

50:46

the DNC to test the embryo , because

50:48

it had been my third one , so my OB

50:51

had recommended it . So we could do genetic testing

50:53

on the embryo and what we found

50:55

was that through that genetic testing

50:57

was that it was a trisomy 21 embryo

51:00

, so which is Down syndrome . And I

51:02

also didn't realize , like even after

51:04

she told me that we went back in . Once

51:06

the test results came back I was like , oh

51:08

, could that be why I miscarried ? And she said it

51:11

almost absolutely is why you miscarried . Most

51:13

trisomy 21 fetuses do

51:15

miscarry . They can make it to term , obviously

51:18

, because we have people who have Down syndrome

51:20

but , like most , actually don't

51:23

. And one more thing I did so many

51:25

things I didn't know in this process and that was one

51:27

more of them . Like that could be a reason for

51:29

miscarrying . But this is why we

51:31

then moved into IVS , because what

51:33

we were told in our understanding was that

51:36

by this point I was almost

51:38

40 . And chromosomal

51:41

abnormalities of eggs at

51:43

my age were just so much more frequent

51:45

that that would explain the

51:47

recurring losses , and so

51:50

fertility treatments to us seemed

51:52

like OK , well , this could be

51:54

the way that we get around the

51:57

chromosomal abnormalities . Because

51:59

if you have the option in

52:01

IVF , everyone doesn't choose to do this , but

52:03

some people you can and

52:06

do . And we did choose to do genetic

52:08

testing on your embryos to see if they are

52:10

chromosomally euclid , and

52:12

if you implant a euclid

52:14

embryo it's much more likely to

52:16

result in a life delivery and

52:18

a baby . So that was sort

52:20

of our . I think we both reached this point at the same

52:22

time with the third miscarriage

52:25

. That was like we can't have

52:27

more of these . Not that with IVF

52:29

you can prevent a miscarriage , but it was

52:31

the whole . Keep doing the same thing and wait for

52:33

whatever that saying is .

52:35

The definition of sanity . We can't

52:37

keep . The definition of sanity is continuing to do the

52:39

same thing and getting a different result . We can't keep doing this .

52:42

This result is too painful every time

52:44

, so we're going to have to change courses

52:46

. And so it was like IVF

52:48

or stop altogether . We

52:50

gave IVF a shot that didn't work , and

52:52

so it was like OK , this is where we are

52:54

.

52:55

So in doing all of this , you are trying to eliminate

52:58

one of the potential reasons

53:00

that maybe the pregnancy wasn't implanting

53:03

appropriately or being carried full term

53:05

, but then , after doing the genetic testing

53:07

and implanting healthy embryos , it

53:09

still didn't work . So then you're able to say

53:12

, ok , well , maybe there's not something that we can

53:14

really understand as the reason . Or if we

53:16

do seek understanding , it would take

53:18

a whole lot more invasive testing

53:20

to be able to figure out how

53:22

to do all this . And it's just after everything that

53:24

you've been through physically .

53:26

I'm assuming that you guys decided that it was just

53:28

not worth all that , yeah , and we never got

53:30

embryos that were implantable , so

53:33

we just didn't . We never even made it to

53:35

that point . So it was in some ways

53:37

a very simple process for us . It was a

53:39

very clear end of the road in

53:42

a way , and it was a really really

53:44

hard one more for me than

53:46

him , in the sense that he

53:48

had found all this very painful , but for

53:50

that reason he was ready to stop and he was ready

53:53

to stop sooner than I was . But

53:55

while for me it was really hard to

53:57

let go , it was so clearly

53:59

the end . If I was honest with myself

54:02

, it felt . I remember telling a friend at one

54:04

point I feel like I'm yelling at someone

54:06

to love me and they just don't . I'm

54:09

swimming upstream , I'm trying to squeeze

54:11

lemon out of a lemon that has no juice . This

54:13

is not going to happen . It can't because

54:15

I can't keep putting us

54:17

through this . We're not going to be the family

54:20

that does eight rounds of IVF

54:22

and just hopes one of them works . And the reason

54:24

we weren't is because I wasn't going to put them

54:26

through . That I knew again

54:28

, if I was quiet and honest with myself

54:31

, I didn't want to pick me through that and

54:33

also we couldn't even afford that

54:35

. Also , it just wasn't even

54:37

an option because it's so expensive

54:39

, it's not cheap and we were paying out of pocket

54:41

for it . So all

54:43

of those facts on paper were like it's done

54:46

, mary , that's just it . And

54:49

so I started the . I

54:51

mean , luckily I have writing , because I ended

54:53

up at work on a memoir

54:55

about this now because I did process

54:58

through writing and that's

55:00

how I've always processed all of this and I

55:03

think it's . I'm so happy for your

55:05

podcast . I think it's so important that we tell these

55:07

stories and I really wanted to share

55:09

mine . So I've written

55:11

a lot about this . But I had to start

55:13

this really weird mental and emotional

55:15

process of letting go of this

55:18

dream , letting go of something that

55:20

I had always just assumed I would have . It was

55:22

like a vision of something I had pictured since

55:24

I was a kid , like oh , family of four , I'm

55:26

from family of four , I won a family of four and

55:29

part of it was even consciously changing

55:32

what the actual fantasy looked like

55:34

, like when I literally would picture

55:36

myself in five years or

55:38

my family in five years or 10 years . Who was

55:41

in the picture . What did I picture vacations

55:43

like ? What do I picture Fentai

55:45

School graduation , like and removing

55:47

one of the people from that fantasy

55:49

, like it was really literal on

55:52

one level , like that . So

55:54

yeah , it's made me very

55:56

passionate about speaking really

55:59

openly about this stuff , about

56:01

secondary infertility , about

56:04

pregnancy loss , about IVS

56:06

, about all of it , because

56:09

it was very lonely . And

56:11

another reason I have wound up writing

56:13

about it is that I remember looking

56:15

for memoirs on this and

56:18

finding very little . There's

56:20

just not a lot by way of books

56:22

. So I really

56:25

care a lot about this now and

56:27

want to speak more publicly about it . I mean

56:29

, my friends and I talk about this all the time

56:31

now because I'm at the age where many

56:33

of my friends are undergoing this kind of

56:36

struggle , so it's a really

56:38

common conversation behind closed doors

56:40

. At a certain age , I think it shouldn't

56:42

have to be closed doors .

56:44

It's such a huge part of life , it's so common , and

56:47

just like we don't discuss what the woman

56:49

has been through after delivery . So

56:51

, mary , if you could go back and

56:53

I ask everybody this if you could go back to any

56:56

part of this process , if you could take

56:58

a message to yourself from yourself and

57:00

just kind of give yourself support

57:03

in those moments that you wish that you had had

57:05

, where would you go and what would you go back and say

57:07

to yourself ?

57:07

Well , since this is just sort of like a

57:09

magical realism , time travel thing , anyway

57:12

, I'm going to add an element

57:14

to it .

57:15

You can go anywhere you want . I'm going to add an element to it

57:17

. Yeah , let's do it .

57:19

I would go back and be like go talk to this person

57:21

. This person has had a miscarriage and

57:23

can explain some things to you that will be helpful

57:25

for you to hear . Or like you're not alone

57:28

here . Go find this community . Like go

57:30

follow this person on Instagram . Go read

57:32

this book . Like you're not alone , because

57:35

it took me time

57:38

and digging to realize that I wasn't

57:40

alone . But I wasn't , and so I would

57:42

go back and like point out some resources

57:44

, basically for myself . I

57:46

think that's it .

57:47

Yeah , that would be so helpful , but you're kind of doing

57:49

it .

57:49

Yeah , I hope so .

57:51

Yeah , especially . I just think that I'm so

57:53

happy that you're doing a memoir because I

57:55

think that , especially the way that you write

57:57

and with your ability to

57:59

verbalize trauma in an emotionally

58:02

relevant and profound

58:04

way , without additionally traumatizing

58:07

the reader and yourself , I think it's so

58:09

important because there's so much that needs to be

58:11

communicated as far as

58:13

, like , the realistic things and thoughts

58:16

and just all the struggles that you're

58:18

going through internally during that process , but

58:20

also physically , and then to be

58:22

able to normalize some of their natural

58:25

reactions and some of the things that

58:27

people probably don't talk about that they think

58:29

and feel , and some of I mean just based

58:31

on your first book that I read some of the absurdity

58:33

of it and some of the

58:36

ways that we all in our

58:38

humanity get through it . That might be kind

58:40

of ridiculous or unusual

58:43

. I just I'm thinking of the like I mentioned

58:45

before . We started recording the

58:47

scene in your first book where the characters

58:50

continually ordering Domino's

58:52

pizza and getting HOA messages

58:55

asking to stop

58:57

having so much pizza delivered . You know just

58:59

all the stuff that , the mundane

59:02

things that a

59:04

person goes through and doesn't even think about

59:06

sharing but then is so relatable

59:09

to somebody that's been through a process

59:11

. Yeah , I think it's just .

59:13

I'll read it , man . I'm gonna put it out on an

59:15

audiobook as soon as possible , because I'm gonna be reading

59:17

it on the way

59:19

back and forth to but to work . Yeah

59:22

, exactly , I think some of that absurdity

59:24

I didn't indulge because I have

59:26

finished a draft . I'm not trying to

59:28

traumatize anyone or , frankly , even

59:31

make someone's that . There are obviously some

59:33

sad parts , but I think it's much

59:35

more about like commiserating , yeah

59:37

, some of these thoughts , some of the absurdities

59:40

, and like how we come out of it . Okay

59:42

, I mean

59:44

I , yeah . For example , when we came

59:47

home from our ultrasound where we found

59:49

out about our second miscarriage , I

59:51

ran I write about this like I went to

59:53

check the mail and there was like a pair of

59:55

maternity genes that I had ordered from

59:57

a thrift store and like just the timing

1:00:00

of that just being so , you

1:00:03

know , like are you kidding me ? But

1:00:05

also like I ended up putting

1:00:08

them on and wearing them and really loving how

1:00:10

they fit and and and having

1:00:12

this kind of this meaningful experience

1:00:14

for myself where I realized I'm not actually

1:00:17

less pregnant than I was yesterday . My

1:00:19

body hasn't changed at all

1:00:21

. I know more now , but

1:00:23

but I get to wear

1:00:26

these jeans , so I'm gonna wear the jeans

1:00:28

, you know you

1:00:30

earned it .

1:00:31

You get to let these jeans support your body

1:00:33

and make you feel comfortable during

1:00:35

this really crap . Yeah , exactly , I

1:00:37

just love that you were . I mean that you remember

1:00:39

times like that , because I think

1:00:42

a lot of people just kind of they're going through this

1:00:44

traumatic process and they're blinders on , just

1:00:46

like , oh , this sucked , I'm gonna forget about this , and

1:00:48

that's kind of how I am . I stuff it down

1:00:50

, I'm really working on it just . But especially

1:00:53

being in healthcare , that's how most of us work through

1:00:55

a lot of the stuff that we deal with

1:00:57

. We do a lot of stuffing down of the emotions

1:00:59

and not necessarily having that awareness

1:01:01

of some of those moments , and

1:01:04

so to be able to recognize it and write about

1:01:06

it , I think it's gonna be a real gift for a lot of moms

1:01:08

and probably healthcare providers . I think healthcare

1:01:10

providers can read your memoir and , even having

1:01:12

not gone through a miscarriage themselves , would

1:01:15

have a lot of benefit from just

1:01:17

, you know , living that with someone

1:01:19

because it's so hard from our if

1:01:21

we haven't been through it , it's hard from our

1:01:24

standpoint to really care

1:01:26

for someone that's going through that situation .

1:01:27

Yeah , I love that point and I think I feel

1:01:29

like it's also very much . You know , this

1:01:32

experience really brought me back to

1:01:34

what we've already talked about . I feel like I had thought

1:01:36

the morning after I had a baby , which was just

1:01:38

like wanting someone to be , like how are you doing

1:01:40

? Like just basically wanting acknowledgement

1:01:43

.

1:01:44

It's a lot to me . Easy question you can just yeah , yeah

1:01:46

, if you don't know what to say , how are you doing is a

1:01:48

really good start . The rest of it will probably

1:01:50

come out over time in the conversation

1:01:52

. Yeah Well , mary , is there anything that we didn't talk

1:01:54

about that you wanted to share ?

1:01:55

No , I mean , I hope I'll have at some point

1:01:58

more , more , more details , but I don't know

1:02:00

, it's still early . Yeah .

1:02:02

Well , we can always . Well , let me know when you

1:02:04

do have it , and we can always do another interview

1:02:06

, or we can do a promo , a

1:02:08

re-area episode , however you want to

1:02:10

. However you want to approach it . I'm really excited

1:02:12

and I think it's going to help a lot of people . So

1:02:14

, in the meantime , you got three novels

1:02:17

out there that I I definitely

1:02:19

recommend the first , and I'm going to read

1:02:21

the second and third . I can't wait for them . I'm hard

1:02:23

to come out . Thanks so much .