1:59

And I was like, what's the fuss about? But

2:02

what I like about these is they're brown suede, and

2:04

it's kind of like a skin tone

2:06

matching,

2:06

which you know is not that easy. And then

2:08

in the back, you can see there's like some wood

2:11

here.

2:12

It's solid. So you can walk. I've walked

2:14

in these and stood in these in all

2:17

kinds of places. And you can see, I actually

2:19

have a lot of shoes at home and only

2:21

a handful in my office at work. And since

2:24

I came to TV, one of the things I learned is like, guess

2:26

what? They can't always see

2:27

your shoes. There's no point. But I still

2:29

like them. I have

2:32

them here with me. So yeah, it's

2:34

funny. If you had seen me on the street and said,

2:36

do you have a favorite pair of shoes, I'd be like, no. But

2:39

they're obviously here. They're always with me. And it's

2:41

been a bunch of years.

2:43

I love that. I

2:45

mean, you've obviously been in the industry for almost 20

2:48

years now. When you were younger, did

2:50

you always know that you wanted to do this? Did

2:52

you think about at all being a journalist?

2:54

And or was there something that made you want to even

2:57

pursue this career track?

2:59

I started when I was 19, which

3:01

isn't that unusual.

3:04

I

3:07

think lots of people who are in

3:09

media might have worked at their high school paper

3:11

or been

3:12

that kind of kid. I wasn't

3:14

that kind of kid. But when I was in college,

3:18

I got interested in journalism thanks

3:20

to a professor. His name was Nicholas McBride.

3:23

This is at the University of Massachusetts. And

3:28

then I did my first story

3:30

for radio, for audio specifically.

3:34

And I

3:35

found a flyer on the ground in the student

3:37

center that said,

3:39

come out for the

3:41

radio department, WMUA.

3:45

And I pick up the flyer and

3:47

basically have a meet cute with the guy

3:49

who was putting the flyers.

3:51

We were friends. There was never anything that

3:53

cute about the meet cute. But

3:55

he was like,

3:56

come on in. And he was a guy who had been

3:58

in the army and.

3:59

done journalism in the army and here he

4:02

was a student now with undergrads

4:04

and he introduced me

4:06

to radio and to journalism. And

4:09

we went out and did a story

4:11

like just sort of following it was at a

4:13

speech

4:15

for someone Ward Connerly who I think has passed

4:17

away. He was an anti affirmative action

4:19

activist at the time and he was visiting

4:21

our campus and it caused a big stir

4:24

and

4:25

you know this person just took me under their wing

4:27

and was like we're

4:27

going to cover this you know like let's interview

4:30

some students

4:31

and then we're going to walk all the way to the front of the room and

4:33

like

4:34

talk to this guy and we're going to bring this tape back

4:36

and it

4:37

was just such a lovely way to be

4:39

introduced to something you know

4:42

the sort of thrill and joy and chase of it

4:45

and I think I've been chasing that high

4:47

ever since. Yeah it's beautiful.

4:50

I feel like so much of it though is also

4:52

when people get into journalism

4:55

by chance or just wanting to you know

4:58

go after their passion and the love of storytelling

5:00

often though you really it takes so much time

5:02

to find your voice and to find your

5:04

beat and where you really feel like you fit in.

5:06

And you've talked a lot about you know experiencing

5:09

imposter syndrome and how that's

5:11

like affected your career. Some of what I've read

5:14

is when you said like when you turned 40 that things

5:16

kind of shifted in your mind and that some of that melted

5:19

away but what was that along the way

5:21

and was there a moment where you felt like you

5:23

started

5:23

to belong or understood along the

5:25

way as well?

5:27

It's very easy to feel like you

5:29

don't belong in

5:30

these industries

5:32

where

5:33

the social network and

5:35

I don't mean the modern day internet

5:38

version of that but the social

5:41

network is so deeply embedded

5:44

and in journalism that is very

5:46

true you know going to certain

5:48

schools, going to grad

5:50

school, going to journalism school, going to

5:52

certain journalism schools,

5:54

all those things

5:56

to me they can kind of ease

5:58

your path right?

5:59

saying those people didn't work hard, but

6:02

they make the path a lot easier. And

6:04

so I didn't have any of the secret handshakes.

6:07

You

6:07

know, I went to a school, UMass

6:09

Amherst, that wasn't a

6:11

big name in journalism.

6:14

And

6:15

then I didn't go to journalism school

6:17

afterwards.

6:18

And I didn't

6:20

have money

6:21

to intern somewhere for

6:23

free

6:24

for years and years. Yeah, I couldn't

6:27

go to New York, I couldn't live in New York.

6:29

To this day, I feel like New York is the one that

6:31

got away. Like, I feel that way, the way some people

6:33

feel about a lover. Like,

6:35

I couldn't make it there. Yeah. Because

6:38

I was paying for school. And then I was paying my

6:40

debt when I got out of school. And then I wanted

6:42

to work. I love the journalism, and I wanted

6:44

to do the work. And I didn't want to be anywhere

6:46

else learning about the work.

6:49

So I think if

6:52

you don't know the secret handshakes, you're

6:54

always going to feel like an imposter.

6:57

And so it's not that there's something intrinsic to

6:59

being a woman of color,

7:01

or someone working class in

7:03

a newsroom. There's nothing wrong

7:06

with us. But it's

7:08

like not getting into those

7:10

clubs is meaningful. And it has

7:12

ripple effects, because then later on, when you're

7:14

in the lunchroom, and people are talking about

7:17

where they summer,

7:18

or the house that they stayed in, or

7:22

socialize together, because they feel more

7:24

comfortable with each other, because they have a shared language,

7:26

you can just find yourself

7:29

feeling boxed out and real or imagined

7:31

that can take a toll.

7:33

And there's been more acknowledgement in recent

7:35

years about what kind of toll that can take.

7:37

Can

7:37

I ask you a question? So

7:41

have you ever felt that way? Like that's

7:43

women's

7:43

magazines in a nutshell, like

7:45

that world of magazine media

7:47

just seems so dependent

7:50

on being part of a social class and a

7:52

social set.

7:53

Yeah, I mean, I think I still feel

7:56

like a fish out of water. I feel like it's

7:58

my purpose and what I'm supposed to be doing. But I

8:00

think that the way that

8:02

I come about even wanting to

8:04

tell certain stories is the

8:07

way that it is because I didn't grow up

8:09

around media people or

8:11

in this kind of environment. I grew up in

8:13

the Midwest. I grew up in Wisconsin. I

8:16

always had to work multiple jobs and

8:18

hustle. I never had enough money to live

8:20

here. It was always a struggle. And was

8:22

made worse by a lot of the magazines

8:25

that I've worked at had a really huge fashion presence.

8:27

That makes it even worse when you don't have money because then

8:29

you can't afford to live here

8:31

and you also can't afford to look the part

8:34

and that's part of a social currency definitely

8:36

at a fashion magazine. I thought that was

8:38

just in the Devil Wears Prada. You're saying that's a real

8:40

thing? Oh, no, that's definitely a real thing. They

8:42

never showed her buying the clothes there, right? She

8:44

just went to the magical closet and stole the

8:47

clothes. There's no magical

8:49

closet? No, no, no. I

8:52

think the fashion closets are a wonderful place, but they're

8:54

not magical in that sense. That becomes part

8:56

of your currency to be able to talk

8:58

with other people and then take you

9:01

seriously in a certain way. I remember I was

9:04

always really having a hard time with it because

9:06

I would outwork

9:09

anyone. I was always like, I can outwork

9:11

anyone any day. That's no problem for me, but

9:14

there are certain things that aren't dependent

9:16

upon you actually working hard and knowing what

9:18

you're talking about and knowing what you can bring to the table.

9:21

It does still feel like in fashion

9:23

specifically, a lot

9:26

of that can feel out of your reach

9:28

and out of your grasp of how your career

9:31

can actually play out because it does end up

9:33

being a little bit of how people

9:35

perceive you to be. It's funny, there's

9:38

a catch-22 there because you're

9:40

working hard and you're trying to outwork everyone.

9:43

Yeah. Then weirdly,

9:45

people start to see you as just like

9:47

that thing

9:49

about black women being a mule of

9:52

the world. You just end

9:54

up doing work and people just end up being like, yeah, okay, that's

9:56

what you do.

9:57

You're going

9:58

to carry this office.

9:59

going to do

10:02

this heavy lifting because whatever, I guess

10:04

you're into

10:04

it, but you're not like a star. You don't have it.

10:08

I think that's such an interesting

10:11

dynamic where you try

10:13

and follow what you're being

10:15

told is the system. It's on merit

10:18

and you start trying to outwork everyone. But

10:20

then at a certain point, you just feel like,

10:22

well, wait a second. Now

10:24

I'm working super hard. I'm burnt

10:27

out and

10:28

you're still not looking at me in the

10:31

way you're

10:33

looking at that other person who you're

10:35

seeing as a star. It's nice

10:38

that we can talk about it now. Do you know what I mean?

10:40

I think that if you come up like Gen

10:42

X, I consider myself the

10:45

tail end of Gen X despite those

10:47

who try and push me into elder millennial status.

10:51

For sure, we were like, yes, you just got

10:53

to keep, you got to put your head down and work and that's all it

10:55

is. I feel like the new generation is like,

10:57

is it though? Or are there some barriers here that

10:59

we're not talking about? Yeah,

11:01

I mean, I think it's a little bit of both. I think

11:03

it is work hard for sure. But I think the barriers

11:06

are still there. And I wanted to know if you've

11:08

ever compared yourself to other people, whether

11:10

it be other hosts or other journalists all the time,

11:13

every minute. Last time.

11:15

Do you still compare? Oh my God, I'm in

11:17

a WhatsApp

11:18

group of other hosts.

11:19

So we like get in and

11:22

talk about our shows. We're like, how's this going? How's

11:24

this going? How's that going? And then as soon as

11:26

I get out of the group, I'm like, Oh my God, they're

11:28

doing amazing. What am I doing with

11:30

my life?

11:31

What do you compare? Like, is it about viewership

11:34

and numbers? Or is it about getting a

11:36

better story? Like, what do you compare? How

11:38

much time do you have? No, I don't know.

11:41

I mean, that's the that's the thing, right? When

11:43

you mess around with your self esteem,

11:45

it's a feature, not a bug. There's

11:48

always going to be something. I

11:50

have a friend who he's my best

11:52

friend in the world. And he

11:55

has always told me that

11:57

he only looks forward and

11:59

up.

12:01

And in my dark moments, that's

12:03

what I try and do. Because as

12:05

he has pointed out, if you're looking side

12:08

to side,

12:10

it's

12:10

a recipe for disaster. If you're looking

12:12

down, it's a recipe for disaster.

12:15

I should say his name. His name is Eric Gillen. He's

12:18

in the magazine world over at Tondanest.

12:20

And

12:22

it really has helped me in some moments

12:25

where I'm spinning out about

12:27

how other people are doing it. Am I doing enough?

12:29

Am I doing well? You're only as good as your last

12:31

story. Maybe you're not good at all then. What

12:34

does that mean? Like,

12:35

you know, your brain can just do it. Do all of that.

12:38

So it helps to say, okay, let's stop upward

12:40

and onward.

12:41

For sure. For sure. I mean, you

12:44

hosted all things considered though for 10

12:46

years. What was in your head about,

12:48

you know, wanting to really close that

12:51

chapter, but then also just stepping

12:53

away and wanting to start a new journey?

12:55

I started that job when I,

12:58

I

12:59

don't know, I feel like I was 28, 29, you know, like

13:03

it's sort of funny to be getting any attention now

13:05

because when I got the job, there was not

13:08

a peep said about it. And I did

13:10

it for 10 years, no one said a word. So

13:12

I was, you know, thinking I was going to leave and no one was

13:14

going to say a word like that was pretty much

13:16

the position. And, you

13:19

know, when you start out the youngest person

13:21

in the room,

13:22

A, you're not going to stay that way. But what

13:24

it means is that for a time,

13:26

you're kind of always in someone's shadow, but

13:29

there's always a more senior person. There's always

13:31

a more advanced person. There's always that person with more

13:33

experience. And

13:35

sometimes

13:36

it's hard, it's hard to get out. You

13:38

become one of those houseplants that's

13:40

sort of like leaning towards the sun. And

13:44

I think that

13:46

like everyone when the pandemic came

13:48

and I was home with my kids and I was doing

13:51

my work, I started to say, okay, am

13:54

I accomplishing the things I wanted

13:56

to, is there more to accomplish?

13:59

What would that look like?

14:02

Are there more skills to learn? That's

14:05

a huge

14:05

thing for me in any job.

14:08

Is it more money or

14:10

more benefits

14:11

or a better time schedule, that kind of stuff,

14:14

right? The stuff we need

14:15

to live. And then there's like, will I learn

14:18

anything?

14:19

And that's so huge. I just feel

14:21

like if you wake up in the morning and if you

14:24

know how to do the job, it's probably too late.

14:26

And I wanted to try something that

14:28

scared me. And

14:31

someone

14:33

put it in front of me, said

14:34

like, hey, what

14:36

would you think of this?

14:37

And I thought, well, I feel

14:39

like I can do that part. Maybe I can do that part.

14:41

I have no idea how to do that other part.

14:44

All of it feels like a risk and maybe it's time

14:46

to take that risk.

14:48

You also left a time that a lot

14:50

of other prominent journalists

14:52

and hosts of color were kind of switching

14:54

it up. Were there behind

14:56

the scenes talks or were you privy to

14:58

any conversations as far as people

15:00

just wanting something different or wanting more

15:03

out of the platforms that they had? Yeah, I mean,

15:05

we talk and we're friends. And when

15:07

I first even became

15:09

a host at NPR, I remember

15:12

saying to myself, like I really want

15:15

to be friends with people. Like I really want to have

15:17

relationships with people because number

15:19

one, these are gonna be my mentors, right? I had no

15:22

other thing in common with them.

15:24

And so I needed to find

15:26

a commonality. The commonality was work

15:29

and craft. And so that's

15:31

something I also advise people sometimes.

15:33

It's like, if you're waiting for your mentor who looks

15:35

just like you to show up,

15:37

that may not be what happens. You

15:40

may be the mentor on your

15:42

way, right? Like

15:44

you may have to be that person

15:46

for someone else. That is one of the

15:49

unfortunate byproducts

15:51

of how black Americans have been treated in our

15:54

culture in particular

15:56

is like you may be the first, second, third, fifth,

15:58

whatever it is. Yeah.

16:00

And

16:02

we all talked all the time,

16:05

you know, what parts of the job are working? What parts

16:08

of the job are not working? Or

16:10

when does the story feel good to cover, you

16:13

know, what's your best day like? What's your worst

16:15

day like? I think sometimes people get

16:17

caught up in the little itty-bitty parts of

16:19

their work. But I think having a

16:21

career means you can take a holistic view

16:23

of what you do. That's one of the, to

16:26

me, privileges of having a career versus

16:28

having a job.

16:30

Is that with a career, you're

16:32

not saying to yourself, oh my God, I'm never going to work

16:34

again. If this particular job isn't working, you're

16:36

saying to yourself holistically, is this the right match

16:38

for me in the right moment?

16:40

Yeah,

16:41

I love that. What do

16:43

you, what in those conversations though, what,

16:46

you know, what have you felt like? And especially in being

16:48

in industry so long, I

16:50

feel like people often ask me, like, what do I think needs to

16:52

change in media or in fashion? And there's a

16:55

very long list. Don't you hate that?

16:57

I know, but I am very good. We're

17:00

not the gatekeepers, but we always get asked

17:02

these questions. It's like, I don't know,

17:04

ask my boss. Like, it seems

17:06

sort of, but we do, and we do it to each

17:09

other, you know. I actually stopped

17:11

at a certain point. Like, you're doing

17:12

an interview with someone who is some

17:15

person of color

17:16

or LGBT or somewhere, and

17:18

you're like, why is this XYZ?

17:21

It's like, well, I don't know. I didn't do it. I just got

17:23

here, you know. You're like the Morgan

17:26

Freeman president character in a disaster

17:28

movie. Like, I, why we're asking

17:30

me now. So, I would say both

17:33

of us can take that

17:33

bird and knock our shoulders.

17:35

We're not going to solve these things, but

17:38

I try to be present for people

17:40

who want that guy.

17:41

And I think that's why

17:44

when I exited and when people

17:46

talked about it, I didn't say like,

17:48

that's not me. You know what I mean?

17:50

Like, I've had a fine time in my career. It was like,

17:53

yeah, there are difficulties and there are people

17:55

speaking about it, and I'm going to use this time

17:57

to turn the spotlight

17:58

to them.

17:59

Yes.

17:59

so that they can be heard, you know?

18:02

And I think there's a lot of talk these days about platforming,

18:05

but

18:06

that's what it means sometimes, right?

18:08

It means that you actually step out of

18:10

the spotlight yourself and

18:13

shine it on other people.

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19:37

Let's talk about the assignment. What

19:40

can people expect? What are you excited

19:42

about? What made

19:44

it so scary to you to

19:46

embark on this new journey? Well, first of all,

19:48

I think I'm getting to do a lot more editing,

19:51

I'm getting

19:51

to do a lot more supervising

19:55

of the process

19:56

than I'm used to. You know, in the past I was

19:59

always...

20:00

being the anchor and

20:02

the journalist, but not the editor, not

20:04

the executive editor, none of that. And so I think

20:07

having the opportunity to get my hands

20:09

dirty in that way and to exercise new

20:11

skills has been awesome.

20:15

Because I didn't think I had been in the business so long

20:17

till people started to be like, what's

20:20

it like in the early aughts? And

20:23

I was like, oh, okay, I guess I have been in this for a minute.

20:26

Smartphones only been around

20:27

since 2008. Like podcasts haven't

20:29

been around that long, but in podcast

20:31

years, I'm about 90. So

20:34

I have a lot to impart. And

20:36

it's been interesting feeling like you're

20:38

in a startup environment, even though

20:40

you're at a legacy news organization. I've

20:42

never had that experience because

20:44

I kind of stayed in the place where I was

20:46

an intern for a long

20:47

time and that has its own pluses and minuses.

20:51

The Assignment is a show that is

20:54

focused

20:54

on

20:56

people

20:57

who are not famous,

20:58

but

21:01

people

21:01

who are in the middle of stories that are

21:03

infamous.

21:04

So there are so many things. And

21:07

just

21:07

to fangirl for a moment, I think

21:10

in her shoes and the cut, it's so

21:12

good at having finger on the zeitgeist and

21:15

just being like, this is what people are

21:17

talking about.

21:18

And this is how they're talking about it. And this

21:20

is the debate that's happening.

21:22

And it's always so smart. And I remember

21:25

I,

21:25

as a reader, I was like,

21:27

oh, is there something in my world that

21:29

I could be doing that does the same thing? And

21:32

so it's very kind

21:34

of similar

21:35

in a way to what you're doing in that we're

21:37

trying to find people who are at the center

21:39

of the story, people who are living

21:42

the story and just being like, what's your

21:44

group chat like? You know, like,

21:46

books are being banned. Okay,

21:48

you're the librarian. What now? Like,

21:51

we're all fighting about it on the feed, but you

21:53

actually have to

21:54

buy some books from

21:56

the shelf. Like, what is

21:59

your day like at the end?

21:59

of that brutal day,

22:01

we're trying to find and talk to people

22:04

who

22:04

are experiencing those things,

22:07

who are experiencing the debate, who are not just

22:09

like kind of doing a hot take.

22:11

And it's a huge risk because obviously

22:14

every podcast is like, here's

22:16

a pop singer or a

22:18

famous person and here's what

22:20

they do and

22:21

get them to talk freely.

22:23

The flip side is celebrities

22:25

are now talking to each other and they

22:27

don't need interviewers. Yes, I

22:29

feel like they can sit, talk with each

22:31

other. The questions can be hard,

22:33

but not too hard and

22:34

then you get final cut when it's over.

22:36

I can't compete with that nor do

22:39

I want to and I think those

22:41

kinds of interviews are a kind of entertainment

22:44

and a lot of my colleagues

22:46

do those kind of interviews and I think they're awesome

22:48

and I'm jealous.

22:49

And then what I found is that

22:52

I often felt a kinship and

22:54

often felt like, oh my gosh, I have so

22:56

many questions

22:58

for the stranger who is

23:01

doing something that I want

23:03

to know more about. It's sort of that

23:05

conversation you have like when you meet someone

23:07

at an airport bar or something

23:09

and you say, what do you do? What do you

23:11

wait? You do that.

23:13

That's weird. I heard that that

23:15

job does X, Y and Z.

23:17

Is that true? And then the person goes, well, but

23:19

not the way people think.

23:21

It's that kind of conversation. Yeah.

23:24

Just the way I like, I have 50 questions for you

23:26

now.

23:27

Fashion girl.

23:29

I mean, I think it's

23:31

very similar. All media

23:33

jobs, I think, have like a persona

23:36

of what people think it is and then behind the scenes, it's

23:38

very different. So exactly, exactly.

23:41

And I think there's a world of that. I remember

23:43

for a while there was this kind of game on social media.

23:45

It was like the X starter kit and it

23:47

would be little images of things

23:51

and it would sort of make up what people perceive

23:53

your job to be. And I like

23:55

the idea of breaking down each other's silos. I

23:58

like the idea of, you know. I

24:00

would love to do an episode about

24:01

fashion and what's happened

24:04

in women's magazines. Yeah.

24:07

Host the awakening, as I call it,

24:09

trademark gum.

24:12

I think that there have been not

24:15

so subtle changes and

24:17

to those

24:18

newsrooms. And I would love to have two people

24:20

in a room, you and someone else,

24:22

that's the kind of show it would be, where we'd

24:24

say, okay, what happened? When

24:26

did it happen? When did you feel a shift? How

24:28

has the

24:29

job changed? Are there

24:30

some things better, some things harder? Can

24:32

you be a mentor? And by the way, this

24:34

person who was the gatekeeper, they're not the gatekeeper

24:37

anymore. How's that change the gig?

24:39

Yeah.

24:40

I feel like you can do that with a lot

24:42

of people and a lot of topics.

24:45

Yeah, I mean, how is

24:47

podcasting, I guess, different

24:49

for you in the sense that

24:51

it's obviously different than radio, how is it

24:53

different in practice? And I think,

24:56

how do you also,

24:58

when you're talking about there's so many other podcasts

25:02

out there doing celebrity or different genres,

25:04

how do you stay focused on what

25:06

you really wanna do? Number one, I think

25:09

it's great that there's this enormous pod ecosystem,

25:12

because when I got into audio, people

25:14

would say, like, oh, why are you doing that?

25:16

Like, who's gonna do radio? You

25:19

just felt very integrated, you should be doing a blog.

25:22

So I'm happy that this big world

25:24

exists. I think that

25:26

I really wanted to focus on

25:30

what mattered to me as a journalist.

25:32

And I think that that is

25:34

different from being a person who is

25:37

a

25:37

podcaster for fun,

25:39

or an actor who's getting into podcasting,

25:42

or a comedian who's getting into podcasting.

25:45

We're motivated by different things.

25:47

And I'm motivated

25:50

by a love of inquiry, a

25:52

love of ideas.

25:54

I love this moment we're in, we're

25:56

essay writers and pop culture

25:59

critics.

25:59

It's very blurry, that line. And

26:02

it means that

26:04

we're bringing a real richness of discussion

26:06

to even things that seem small and

26:10

in the past might have just seemed kind of frivolous, you

26:12

know, some TV show or whatever. Yeah.

26:15

I think a great example

26:17

would be, you know, this conversation

26:20

about LGBT characters on TV

26:22

shows, and how they are often

26:25

essentially killed off by writers,

26:27

and how that the same trope

26:30

will appear in shows over and

26:32

over and over again, you have this character,

26:35

and you celebrate this character and then they die.

26:38

You know, the fact that there is now this kind

26:40

of robust dialogue where

26:43

people have a voice and a platform to say,

26:45

hey, we notice what you're doing.

26:48

We don't like it. Here's

26:49

how it like connected

26:51

to other

26:52

kinds of erasure.

26:55

That's so huge. You know, that's

26:57

so wonderful, and such

26:59

a great dialogue to be in. And

27:02

I wanted to do something that does

27:04

that, you know, that like taps into that

27:06

because we're all critics now.

27:08

Like, we're

27:09

we all have that capability of

27:11

jumping onto a platform and

27:13

bringing a new point of view.

27:15

People

27:15

are very divided on this stance

27:17

overall in media, but it often feels like,

27:19

especially with the rise of social media, that you

27:22

have to kind of have your own personal brand and kind

27:24

of put yourself out there personally, as well as,

27:26

you know, having your job running,

27:28

running a show, all of

27:29

that. And you've been one to kind

27:31

of reject having to, you know,

27:34

share so much and,

27:35

you know, be, I think, vocal about having

27:37

your own personal brand.

27:38

How does that, you know, come to

27:40

life? And what is that dance like when you have your

27:43

own show, but also just like want to

27:45

have something to yourself still?

27:48

It's hard. I spend a lot

27:50

of time trying

27:52

not to have my face on things or,

27:57

yeah, I'm reluctant in that way.

27:59

not because I am

28:02

trying to hide anything, but because I

28:04

just keep wanting to push other people into the light,

28:07

because I'm fascinated in them.

28:11

I'm into you, Lindsay. I'm now

28:13

gonna be like, I have a friend

28:15

who told me,

28:17

you can visit the fashion closet, but

28:19

you can't leave anything with it. Another thing she

28:21

said, and another thing. And by the

28:23

way, one of the things I learned

28:26

at NPR,

28:26

I learned from Susan Stamburg, who

28:29

had been a long time host of all things considered,

28:32

especially in his early years and also weekend

28:34

edition. And she said, the reason why

28:36

we're called hosts and not anchors is

28:38

because

28:39

we are bringing people together the

28:41

same way like a host at a party. You bring

28:43

people together and you say, oh, have

28:45

you spoken to this person? And by the way, he does

28:48

this for a living. And what's

28:50

interesting is we were just talking about this

28:52

movie, you're like the ringmaster

28:55

in a way. And

28:57

this is not to knock being an

28:58

anchor, like the gravitas of that is

29:01

important, but

29:01

it really helped me understand

29:05

a different way of doing that

29:07

job. And that there was still journalism

29:10

in that, of drawing people out,

29:13

drawing conversation and ideas out

29:16

and helping

29:16

to manage and move

29:19

the conversation forward and

29:22

bring more people into the discussion.

29:25

It really does feel like

29:27

a service

29:29

when it's done well. And

29:31

I sometimes think when it's done well, you don't,

29:34

you remember the host, but you don't like, the

29:36

host wasn't the whole thing of it.

29:38

Like to me, the highest compliment is I

29:41

meet someone on the street and they say, oh my gosh, I

29:43

love you. And this interview you

29:45

did with so-and-so was so amazing. And then when

29:47

they said X, Y, and Z, I was blown

29:50

away. That's when

29:51

I have done my job.

29:53

When you've taken away

29:55

something from the conversation

29:56

and that something

29:58

didn't necessarily come from it.

29:59

me. Yeah.

30:02

So what stories would you say

30:04

you're looking forward to telling? What

30:07

stories do you feel like you are ready

30:09

to expire and leave in the past

30:11

and you don't want to do them anymore? I'd

30:14

like to say politics,

30:14

but we're heading into midterms and

30:17

the election it's not gonna happen. I've never

30:19

gotten away from it. I

30:20

would say what I'm interested in doing is

30:23

more things that

30:24

are what I

30:26

would call at the intersection

30:28

of different conversations.

30:31

So I like

30:32

politics and culture,

30:34

a culture of campaigns. I

30:36

like the business of sports,

30:38

not just sports.

30:40

You know, I like that I like to

30:42

read about the movie business, not

30:44

just the creative part

30:46

of it. And I like to hear about

30:48

feminism and politics. Like I actually

30:51

think that's how most of us are

30:53

taking in the news and synthesizing

30:56

the news in this moment. That

30:58

we're all mixing up things in the feed,

31:00

but on the news side of things we're

31:02

still mired in the beat system.

31:05

It's like these reporters talk about this, these

31:07

reporters talk about that, these reporters talk about this,

31:10

this is your news hour or

31:12

half hour, these are the segments.

31:14

And to me I'm looking forward in the podcast

31:17

space to

31:18

mixing that up, you know, to

31:21

really making it feel like

31:23

that dialogue that you are already having

31:26

with your friends

31:27

in your group chat. Or when you

31:29

send each other TikToks and some of those TikToks

31:32

are about student debt legislation and

31:35

some of those TikToks are about the slap. Right.

31:37

Like to you guys it's all news, right?

31:40

It's all news and culture.

31:42

But

31:43

I think that we could

31:45

do better on the journalism side of

31:49

showing how those things intersect.

31:51

I'm so looking forward to the show and congratulations

31:54

on everything.

31:54

Well good. Then when I call

31:56

you to be like bring a friend we're doing our fashion episode.

31:59

I will of course writing

32:02

the battlefield. Lindsay

32:05

in the magic closet is what we're going to call

32:07

it. That's my I

32:09

love it. I love it. Well, thank

32:11

you

32:11

again for doing this. I so appreciate it.

32:14

No, of course. It was awesome talking with you was

32:16

great.

32:19

In her shoes is hosted by me Lindsay people

32:21

our

32:22

producer and editor for this episode

32:24

is tacos and our engineer is

32:27

Brandon McFarlane and our executive producer

32:29

is Hannah Rosen. The cut is made possible

32:31

by the excellent team at New York magazine described

32:34

today at the cut.com slash subscribe.

32:37

I'm Lindsay people's and thank you so much for listening.

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