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0:48

Welcome to In Her Shoes. I'm Lindsay Peeples,

0:51

and today I have a very special guest,

0:54

personal favorite and my queen,

0:56

the Cuts Editor-at-Large, Kathy Horn.

1:03

So it's been over a month

1:05

since we wrapped up Paris Fashion

1:07

Week, and obviously, Kathy, we

1:10

spent a lot of time together during Fashion

1:13

Month, and so you also

1:15

had a star turn this year walking

1:18

in Balenciaga's show at Paris Fashion Week,

1:21

which is obviously not the typical day, and you wrote

1:23

about that for the Cuts. But

1:26

in general, what would you say the season

1:28

was like for you? And now that we've had a little bit

1:30

of time away, what did you take away

1:32

from the season in

1:33

general? Actually, I think

1:35

about the whole year that we've had

1:37

in fashion and some of

1:40

the ideas that

1:41

came across and kind of repeated.

1:44

I mean, we saw a lot

1:46

of really great tailoring, a lot

1:49

of some of it oversized.

1:51

We started seeing that probably more

1:53

than a year ago, but we

1:55

saw a big emphasis

1:59

on what I would

2:01

call the liberated body. We

2:03

had designers from Elena

2:06

Vales in

2:06

New York, Demetra Pedsa

2:09

in London. I think

2:11

of Raph Simmons' very last collection,

2:14

which was a year ago. Mark

2:17

Jacobs in his collection was

2:19

doing sort of some similar ideas. We're

2:21

seeing a lot of nakedness. That has been an ongoing

2:23

trend and it's really fascinating to watch

2:26

that. We've been seeing,

2:28

again, some of the vintage flavor

2:33

of things that look a little bit worn

2:38

or they've been taken from vintage, but they're not

2:40

disguising that, which

2:42

I still think is kind of interesting. I think that's

2:45

where obviously a lot of young, the

2:47

heads of a lot of young people are, what

2:49

they like.

2:51

And then we had sort

2:53

of like a sub-story going

2:55

on

2:56

really, maybe it's going to become an

2:58

ongoing story for fashion, is

3:01

who's replacing whom at various

3:03

houses? You know, we

3:06

had new designers at

3:08

Gucci, Sabato De Sarno, an

3:11

okay debut. I

3:13

thought there were many good things about it, some weak

3:16

points, and we're going to have a new designer,

3:18

Chloe, next year. So

3:21

there's a lot of talk about that. And of course we had

3:23

Phoebe Philo's return to fashion.

3:26

So to me, it felt like when I think

3:28

of September, there was a

3:30

lot going on between

3:33

the change over at Gucci and

3:36

of course Sarah Burton leaving McQueen.

3:39

That was a very sad moment because a lot

3:43

of us have known

3:45

Sarah for a long time, even

3:48

while Lee McQueen was alive. And

3:51

then, you know, I was in London

3:53

the day after the Paris shows to

3:55

see Phoebe's first collection. I

3:57

mean, I think people also don't realize...

4:00

how much

4:02

you are viewing throughout the year, but

4:04

then also each season, how much it is to

4:07

kind of take in and analyze and understand.

4:10

And so many conversations also happening

4:12

behind the scenes. I think when

4:14

we go to shows now and I look around, there's

4:17

not as many reporters or writers,

4:19

it's a lot more stylists, it's a lot more

4:21

influencers, but it feels like,

4:23

you know, the reporting and the work that

4:26

people like you are doing is more important

4:28

than ever, even though it's definitely shifted.

4:31

And so I'm curious of how you feel like that relationship

4:34

has changed over time and what

4:36

you're looking to continue to do in this work

4:39

as the industry progresses.

4:41

I mean, it's really fascinating. It's

4:44

a great topic in a way, and it's because I've

4:47

watched the shift that's been going

4:49

on, you know, maybe 20 years,

4:51

but it really accelerated with social

4:54

media. And,

4:57

you know, when I first started covering

5:00

fashion in 1986 in

5:02

Milan, I went to Milan in Paris. I

5:04

mean, there were so many editors from regional

5:07

newspapers, regional American newspapers.

5:09

I could give you 15, and that's

5:13

the name of the 15, plus all of the

5:15

Vogue's, and the women's were daily in the New York Times,

5:17

and there were just

5:20

a lot of reporters, and it was really reporters.

5:24

And they were reporting for their market, and,

5:27

you know, it was a

5:29

different scene, but that number

5:31

is dwindled and dwindled. So

5:34

for me, it's,

5:37

you know, I really appreciate, I mean,

5:39

I don't want to make this sound like a pretentious

5:41

journey, but I appreciate having the longevity

5:45

now, because a lot of

5:47

the relationships that I have with people

5:49

in the industry, I've, you know, built up over 20

5:52

years, and that includes CEOs

5:55

as well as designers. Very

5:57

often, I like talking to the CEOs. more

6:00

than the designer at a house

6:02

because they're

6:05

very, but I have to say Lindsay, they're

6:06

also really aware of

6:08

these changes, the

6:11

decline of long-term

6:12

relationships in

6:17

people with an institutional

6:18

knowledge of the business. And

6:20

that applies to the people who are on

6:23

the commercial side of a house, the

6:26

executives. It applies

6:28

to the designers and the design team. So

6:30

it creates a lot of disruption

6:32

in a way, but

6:34

it also creates, I think for those

6:36

of us who like the reporting aspect of

6:39

fashion, I'd include

6:41

people like Vanessa Friedman over at The Times

6:44

and Tim Blanks to an extent

6:46

did Business of Fashion. Yeah,

6:48

Sarah Mohr for sure, but

6:51

it's like you just,

6:53

you know, you have more sources and more contacts,

6:55

you have more understanding

6:59

of the patterns

7:02

and the movements in the industry.

7:04

You really can see the big picture at

7:08

a greater perspective, I think, than

7:10

if you're just relatively

7:13

new to it or you're only interested

7:15

in your own little turf.

7:18

Let's say you're an influencer or a

7:20

stylist. You really, I mean,

7:21

it's almost as if Lindsay,

7:23

you've got these, you've got people,

7:27

it's like a constituency in

7:29

an election where you have one

7:32

group is interested in this and someone else is

7:34

interested in that. That's just kind

7:36

of multiplied a little bit. So

7:38

it creates, gives more texture

7:41

to the whole industry, but I kind of know

7:43

where I want to stay and

7:46

look at things. So yeah,

7:49

I think that's, it is a very

7:51

dramatic change, I would say, in the last

7:53

eight years.

7:55

For sure, but I feel like you, I mean, obviously,

7:58

I think

7:59

I think that people always talk about fashion

8:02

being this just progressive industry and we're

8:04

always excited about the new thing, but I also think

8:06

that we haven't valued

8:08

longevity and the tenure of a lot of things.

8:11

So it's nice to hear that

8:13

and to see, I think, the transition

8:15

of things over time, but still honoring

8:18

certain traditions that we have. And

8:20

I think

8:20

a lot about also

8:23

the

8:24

fact that when we're able to actually go

8:26

to Europe, we're able to actually have

8:28

a lot of conversations face to face with people

8:31

like you were saying that you just wouldn't be able to have

8:33

if you weren't actually developing relationships.

8:36

And I was wondering if there's any conversation

8:39

from this past season that stuck with you or

8:41

conversations that made you

8:43

think a little bit differently about what was happening

8:46

in fashion at large.

8:48

You know, I've had some very good conversations

8:50

this season and I would go

8:52

back to even July

8:55

during the couture because the

8:57

couture shows do allow you the

8:59

pace is a tiny bit slower. So you

9:01

get to have more time sometimes with

9:03

a designer. And

9:07

I spent a lot of time with Demna at

9:09

Valencia, both in July. And

9:11

then again, of course, because I was walking in the

9:14

show, I was backstage

9:16

a lot more than I would normally be at rehearsals

9:19

and the whole makeup and hair

9:22

tests and everything. So I got to

9:24

talk to Demna a lot. I mean, I find him really interesting

9:27

because he's quite introspective

9:29

about where the industry

9:31

is going. I often have conversations with Ralph

9:34

Simmons at Prada. Sometimes

9:37

with mutual Prada too depends on

9:40

if we're in the backstage together.

9:43

The conversation with Phoebe, I mean, Phoebe

9:45

didn't want anything published yet because

9:48

I mean, she wanted to keep the attention

9:51

on the clothes. That was enough to

9:54

just introduce the clothes. But it was a

9:56

real pleasure to see her and to

9:58

get a sense. of

10:01

where she wants to take her this

10:03

new venture. And

10:06

so I would say those were pretty

10:08

meaningful conversations. Sabato

10:11

Dusarno and I had a wonderful preview

10:14

at Gucci that turned

10:17

into like almost an hour conversation

10:19

about where he's going. And

10:22

he got whacked by a lot of journalists.

10:27

And there were definitely not everything

10:31

was perfect in that collection, but I

10:33

really appreciated the fact that I could spend so much time

10:36

with him and actually see things up close. And

10:39

at least for a debut, which you

10:41

always have to give designers a little bit

10:43

of time, three or four seasons

10:46

to see where they're going. But again,

10:48

it's like, I'm interested

10:49

in those conversations because I wanna hear

10:51

what a designer is thinking. So,

10:54

and

10:55

I always take advantage

10:58

of them. I always take advantage of the access

10:59

because I do wanna hear what they're

11:01

saying.

11:04

And I can tell you, I mean, I really

11:07

appreciate it. I've always had

11:09

it when I was at the New York Times, wherever I've worked,

11:11

I've always enjoyed having that

11:13

contact with

11:16

the creative people.

11:18

One of obviously your most

11:20

noteworthy conversations as you were saying

11:23

was with Phoebe Philo. And

11:25

there was obviously so much hype around

11:27

her coming back. So many of us wondering

11:30

what was gonna happen, why we hadn't

11:32

seen images, wanting to see what you

11:34

had to say. And

11:36

obviously loved what you wrote about

11:38

for the cut on

11:39

her coming back in this release

11:42

and the clothing and your thoughts around it. Can

11:44

you give people an insight of why you feel

11:46

like there was such hype around

11:49

this? Because I do feel like it caught

11:52

attention to people, obviously inside of fashion, but

11:54

also outside of fashion. So many

11:56

people were excited about this

11:58

and were really into. the headlines

12:00

around her, even if they didn't

12:02

really have a historical

12:04

knowledge of her. Phoebe obviously established

12:06

a little bit of a reputation at Celine

12:09

when she was there, and then before that at Chloe,

12:12

I think. But still,

12:14

you and I always know that the world is so

12:16

big, and that people follow brands, but not

12:18

necessarily designers. They know,

12:21

I'm not sure if you ask, you know, even

12:25

well-informed consumers, like,

12:27

who's the designer at Dior? I don't

12:29

know how many people really know that, or

12:32

Saint Laurent today. You know, there

12:35

was a generation, you know, going

12:38

back maybe two generations, that grew up

12:40

with all those founders,

12:43

like Steve Saint Laurent himself, they knew

12:45

about them, Sonia Ricquiao,

12:47

Miss Ymiraki. But we don't

12:50

live in that kind of world anymore. Everything

12:52

is global, and everything moves very quickly.

12:54

So I think that people were kind of, Phoebe

12:57

was doing something unique, and that's why when

12:59

I wrote the piece, I put that in the lead,

13:01

that she was the first designer in a long time,

13:04

actually putting her name on a label, a

13:07

big major designer. So

13:09

I think that was kind of crucial.

13:11

And then you sort of asked, why? What does that mean?

13:14

And that she's taking that risk. So

13:17

I think that was sort of interesting.

13:20

And then I think there was a lot

13:22

of hype around her, and people were thinking, well,

13:25

is this, you know, the covertness

13:28

and the, call it secrecy,

13:30

or just, you know, being very cautious. I

13:33

think that, you know, Phoebe is

13:35

in control of her brand. I think she's

13:37

very aware of what goes on in the

13:40

internet world of how quickly things

13:42

will spread. And also, of course,

13:44

once images are out there, and

13:47

it's public, then other companies

13:49

can start copying her work,

13:51

which is inevitable. I

13:55

think that it really did represent somebody

13:57

wanting to create her own paradigm.

14:00

her own way of doing business after she's

14:02

got a lot of experience. She's 50 years old, she's

14:04

been in the business since she graduated from college.

14:07

And so she knows what she's doing. I

14:10

think people were excited about the clothes because

14:13

it was, you know,

14:15

we don't have a lot of women designers at the moment.

14:18

And Phoebe was very representative of what

14:20

a woman designer can do. And in

14:22

terms of clothes

14:25

that relate to a woman's life. She

14:27

did that at Celine a lot. People talked

14:29

about it a lot. So I think the big difference

14:32

is when I look at Phoebe Philo's collection,

14:35

she's whittled it down to

14:37

something really essential. She's

14:40

not giving you everything. And that's a

14:42

problem today on a lot of runways.

14:44

You just feel like you see a lot of product, a

14:46

lot of merchandise. And Phoebe

14:49

gave you a very concise

14:52

look at what she thought was

14:54

interesting, how it defined her brand.

14:57

Obviously, masculine tailing has

14:59

always been big for Phoebe. But

15:01

she had that.

15:02

But she also had those great trousers

15:04

that sold out really quickly. And

15:06

like several different styles. She had the leather

15:09

jackets. She had these key

15:11

pieces that you're like,

15:13

you know, you could covet, you could

15:15

say, wow, that's a look. And also,

15:18

let's face it, it was a really directional

15:21

collection. And I think people are craving

15:23

this feeling of like,

15:26

give me a strong point of view. And

15:29

I think that's really what

15:31

I think that's really what got many people

15:33

excited about it with seeing somebody with

15:36

a strong point of view.

15:51

My last episode was actually with Mara Hoffman,

15:53

who just won the Environmental

15:56

Sustainability CFDA Award. And I think

15:59

I feel like every season,

16:02

they're all of the buzz topics.

16:04

Everyone always talks about how we

16:06

need to be doing better in certain areas.

16:09

And obviously, sustainability is continuously

16:11

one that we need to do better in. But

16:13

there seems to be 100 million ways to go about that and not

16:17

enough resources to the brands that really

16:19

wanna do it well. Why do you think

16:21

that that still is in the air

16:24

of something that people wanna do, but haven't really

16:26

necessarily committed to outside of obviously,

16:28

like Amara and Stella McCartney? And

16:31

what do you feel like that actually would mean in practice

16:33

for a lot of brands to commit to?

16:35

It's such a complicated issue. And

16:38

it's strange

16:41

because there are

16:42

examples across the industry, both

16:45

at the material

16:48

level of companies

16:50

in Italy, for instance, doing

16:53

cotton,

16:57

it's in Europe and in Turkey. For instance,

16:59

having

17:01

cotton that's grown responsibly,

17:04

Stella McCartney

17:05

had a very good exhibition, as you

17:07

remember, at

17:09

her show with different

17:12

booths from her suppliers and

17:14

other suppliers. You are doing different things

17:16

with whether it's mushroom leather or this

17:20

kind of cotton. And there are plenty of companies

17:22

using those products at

17:25

the high level of fashion and

17:27

there are people who are doing upcycling and

17:29

who are, many

17:33

of the companies are doing some aspect

17:35

of that. So

17:37

in that sense, it's a plus. But I think

17:39

on the other side of it is

17:41

there's just so much production. And

17:44

I think that is, and I'm

17:46

not an expert on sustainability, but I

17:48

look at the production of so

17:50

many brands and I'm like, why do you need to produce

17:53

so much?

17:54

And

17:55

that is, if you talk

17:57

to people about the impact on the climate.

18:01

on the, I mean on the earth and climate

18:03

change and resources, you know,

18:05

overproduction is a huge problem across

18:08

many industries. We just have too

18:10

much. And I

18:11

think that I would love to see more

18:13

designer, you know, why we have runway

18:15

shows with 80 looks in them. And then

18:19

they have the whole back room with

18:22

preseason collections and commercial collections.

18:24

And I'm not a percent excess of that. And again,

18:26

I think going back to Feilow's

18:28

collection,

18:30

I think that was one of the,

18:32

you know, the hallmarks of that show, of that

18:34

presentation or some presentation, but her, her

18:37

debut was,

18:38

she had one really fabulous evening

18:41

dress. I've mentioned it a couple of times.

18:43

And I highlighted in my piece that ivory

18:45

dress that could be top, it could be a

18:47

dress, depending on how you would

18:49

use it,

18:50

but she didn't show you more than the one.

18:52

And it's like, okay, I get, and she, she

18:55

also addressed how to, how to, how

18:57

to, you know, what fashion might look like when you're

18:59

going out instead of all the party clothes that no

19:01

one really wants to wear anymore. So

19:05

she proposed a modern solution and

19:07

she also said, we're not going to overproduce.

19:10

So, and she said that to people online,

19:12

you know, that was one of the things, you know, be prepared

19:15

for, for things to be sold out because we're

19:17

not going to overproduce.

19:19

So

19:19

I think it's like, I think, I

19:21

think that people are, I mean,

19:24

compared 10 years ago, I mean, where

19:26

Stella was often the only one even

19:28

talking about, you know, new

19:31

materials and, you know,

19:34

responsible materials. We

19:36

have a lot more people talking about it now. And I think

19:38

also more people concerned about production.

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Something

21:28

that you wrote about

21:30

that I wanted to hear more of your

21:32

thoughts on was when you had mentioned

21:33

that you feel like there's a loss

21:36

of freedom among designers, whether

21:38

it's like a freedom what they're able to create or what they're

21:40

able to do.

21:40

And I was curious of what you meant by

21:42

that

21:42

and if you could

21:45

say more on that and give us some

21:47

examples. You

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know, if you think about photography, because

21:52

we all love, you know,

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most people who love the fashion

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and they like advertising too.

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I remember we used to open a magazine

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in September and turn those

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pages and look and see what Tom Ford

22:10

was doing at Gucci with his

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ads or Prada or

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Versace, whoever it might be. And

22:17

I feel like there

22:20

is a curtailing of that

22:22

kind of surprise. That's

22:26

the result. The consequence is that you

22:28

don't really feel like you're seeing a surprise with

22:31

that kind of imagery as

22:33

much as we used to. And I think on the runways,

22:35

in terms of making clothes,

22:38

I hear this all the time from

22:40

designers, particularly at larger

22:42

brands,

22:43

where I think

22:44

many of the creative

22:47

directors who are good,

22:50

whether it's Demna or Jonathan Anderson

22:52

at Lueve,

22:54

certainly were at a mutual. I

22:56

mean, that's their,

22:58

you know, they're in charge,

23:00

is that they have tremendous

23:03

creative freedom. I think that they thrive on that.

23:05

They live off that. And they produce great

23:10

results

23:11

on the runway. But then you hear other stories

23:14

of people who just say, well, you know, it's

23:17

the merchandisers. I have to answer to, you

23:19

know, they come in and they want to, you know,

23:25

what sold last year,

23:27

give us more of that.

23:29

It seems like it's almost a constant

23:32

battle. And when I was talking

23:34

to, when I did that piece in September

23:37

for the magazine about where all the creative talent, you

23:40

know, where is it and where's the risk taking

23:42

talent? We sort of took a larger

23:44

view of the industry

23:47

in that piece. But, you

23:49

know, one of the top

23:51

guys at LVMH, Sidney Talladano said, you know,

23:57

he used to, I knew him since he was

23:59

at the LVMH.

23:59

your back in the late 90s.

24:02

He said, I can't tell you how many, you know,

24:05

the marketing guys have taken over.

24:07

I mean, I thought

24:08

this is a senior executive

24:10

at LVMH saying the marketing

24:12

guys have taken over.

24:15

And so yeah,

24:17

that is that these companies

24:19

have become machines. And we all

24:21

know that when things become bigger and bigger

24:23

and more complicated, you know, it isn't

24:26

about the one designer. It's not about Cristobal

24:28

Balenciaga in his, you know,

24:30

in his studio doing what he wants.

24:32

Those days have been long, long gone.

24:35

But

24:36

I feel like even in the last decade,

24:38

there's just been a

24:41

little bit of a curtailing of freedom. And I

24:44

think with for any creative person, whether you're

24:46

an artist or whether you're a fashion designer

24:48

or photographer, I

24:50

think that's what you you want

24:52

to keep as much of that as possible.

24:55

Yeah, for sure.

24:57

And I think you see it. I mean,

24:59

I think you see it in the in the

25:01

in you know, what we see on the runways where

25:03

things start to look very repetitive

25:06

and a little bit predictable and almost

25:08

as if it's like color by numbers,

25:11

you know, where it's like a formula that

25:13

they all that they not all but many

25:15

will fit into like,

25:17

you know, I think one of the terrible,

25:20

boring, what

25:23

do you it's almost like a crutch or of

25:26

it's an excuse really is, you know,

25:28

this notion of quiet luxury, which

25:31

is, you know,

25:33

that things things are really relatively simple

25:36

and basic, but incredibly expensive.

25:38

And it goes

25:41

without saying they're well made, but

25:43

there's not a lot of, you know, it again,

25:45

it feels like things have become

25:47

industrialized a little too much.

25:51

Yeah.

25:52

I mean, I am curious, as next year

25:55

is an election year, and I always

25:57

think that that plays into a lot of

25:59

changes. with designers

26:01

or how people start to talk about spending

26:05

or consumption, any early

26:08

predictions, feelings on that.

26:11

I feel like we've we used to have so many

26:13

exciting moments with elections and you

26:15

know I remember just the

26:17

the thrill of like

26:18

seeing who was dressing Michelle Obama. We

26:20

haven't had a lot of those moments of recent

26:23

but any early predictions

26:25

or feelings around that?

26:27

You know a friend of mine who's an

26:30

economics professor said this to me about

26:32

a year ago. We were talking about the economy

26:34

and I said you know when

26:37

is it when is it really gonna

26:39

we gonna go back to something that feels a

26:41

little more

26:43

I don't know normal for lack of a better

26:46

word. I mean we've been the whole

26:49

much of the world has been really

26:51

hard hit by inflation some parts worse than

26:53

others

26:57

and he said you know the pandemic

26:59

was a major

27:01

catastrophe it was a major event

27:04

and the time it takes

27:06

to recover from that is

27:07

longer than people realize and I think

27:10

that helped me understand the sort of slow

27:13

period I mean I don't really think about the

27:15

election so much as I pay

27:17

attention more to the economy. I

27:20

mean whether it is the

27:23

the economy as it's expressed

27:25

by by Wall Street and the stock

27:28

market and where those where

27:30

that information is going or

27:33

if it's what's going on in Europe we have

27:35

two major wars going on I

27:37

mean these

27:38

are all things that

27:41

you know combined will have you know

27:43

a big impact it's you know I think a

27:46

lot of people would just like to see the in the United

27:48

States anyway I'm no economist but

27:50

I would like to see the economy you

27:55

know not be so volatile

28:00

and also the whole inflation situation,

28:03

you know, finally get behind us. So

28:06

I think that has such a down

28:08

draft feeling on things. So

28:12

I don't know that, Lindsay, I don't know that how

28:14

much

28:15

elections have an effect anymore

28:17

on fashion.

28:21

I really don't think they do as much. And

28:23

I think that's been true for a while. So,

28:28

yeah, I don't really know. And

28:30

I think also I'm just throwing

28:32

this out. I mean,

28:35

I think that it's like everybody has so many

28:37

serious concerns related to

28:39

abortion, for instance. Like,

28:42

where is that going? The Ohio vote was very

28:44

interesting. But

28:46

they have concerns in many areas. And

28:49

so I think everybody has their

28:53

personal concern

28:56

and interest of what they'll get

28:58

out of changes in the economy

29:00

over the next 18 months to two years.

29:03

So I'd like to see

29:05

resolved. Yeah,

29:07

I think one thing, I think one thing,

29:09

Lindsay,

29:09

that I was just thinking about too, just maybe

29:12

something you said is that,

29:14

you know, I think one of the things that's

29:16

just most fascinating also in fashion

29:19

is

29:20

that we have

29:23

a generation coming up. And,

29:25

you know, there are people who are very concerned,

29:27

obviously, about the state of the

29:29

planet and consumption. And

29:32

this past year was the hottest year in

29:34

record. We

29:37

have that then there's a generation

29:40

of young people and obviously older people,

29:42

too. But that is their cause

29:45

and their activists on that front.

29:47

We also have groups of people,

29:50

feminists, who are new

29:52

age feminists, I would call them, who really

29:55

want to see women represented in a

29:57

different way and they want, you know,

29:59

women represented. whether it's in fashion or in other

30:01

ways. And we have people who

30:03

are, you know, we've

30:06

talked about the runway being more pluralistic

30:09

and having

30:12

not being, you know,

30:14

for so many years and until

30:16

fairly recently, fashion felt very exclusionary.

30:20

So whether

30:22

it was body type or race, or let's

30:25

call them people with

30:27

a different sort of look about them, character,

30:29

you might say, or personality.

30:34

And I think there's obviously, I'm not saying

30:36

anything that we don't already know,

30:38

but I find it really interesting that that is

30:40

like maybe next wave. It

30:43

will just continue to get stronger in

30:46

fashion and in other ways too.

30:48

Yeah, I agree. I think it's, I mean,

30:51

it's for a lot of reasons, but I do think

30:53

that it's

30:54

an interesting

30:57

mix because

30:59

there's a lot more voices

31:02

of, I think, in the choir of what people

31:04

want to see change and what

31:07

people are wanting to see done differently, whether

31:09

it be, you know, different people,

31:11

different names, different kinds of people, different

31:14

genders, races, sexes, et

31:16

cetera, sizes, sexualities,

31:18

all of that. But at the same time,

31:22

I think I'm most interested in people

31:24

that have something to say and

31:26

substance in that. And so not

31:29

just shouting out in the boy, but

31:31

actually how would we move things forward?

31:34

And so it's interesting to see how that has like developed

31:37

and progressed. And I'm curious if

31:39

we'll see any of that next year.

31:42

We've not really, I'm always

31:44

looking, you know,

31:45

when I look at fashion, I look at what's,

31:48

how it fits in the big historical

31:50

picture of fashion. And, you know,

31:53

it's, how does it measure up

31:55

against other great designers of

31:58

the past that could be.

32:00

the past of the 1920s or it could

32:02

be the past of the 1990s. And

32:07

so I'm like putting people

32:10

against that standard. I mean, designers,

32:12

I wanna see like innovation in clothing

32:15

and I'm always confident about

32:17

fashion. I'm always optimistic because we've

32:20

seen,

32:21

you don't get great designers in

32:23

huge numbers every decade. Lagerfeld

32:26

used to say, you only need three

32:28

designers a decade to keep it moving.

32:31

And to an extent, that's kind

32:33

of true.

32:34

But

32:36

I think we also,

32:38

I think I'm waiting to see

32:40

among the designers who

32:43

feel very strongly, let's say about

32:45

these issues, whether it's gender or body

32:48

type or sexuality.

32:51

Again, we see people who represent their

32:53

constituency in a way. Someone

32:55

like Elena Vélez, who I find really interesting.

32:58

I liked her mud show a lot. I liked,

33:00

this is in Brooklyn, as you know, this

33:03

past fall. I liked her intensity.

33:05

I like her ferociousness about

33:08

that. Does it necessarily translate

33:10

into the clothes? Maybe, maybe

33:12

not. And at some point,

33:14

even someone like Elena's tell it is

33:17

she has to make a commercial project out

33:19

of it. So that's been the

33:22

dichotomy between these

33:25

very strong feelings and

33:27

then making a commercial project

33:29

out of it

33:30

that

33:31

is at the same time

33:33

helps move the needle of fashion

33:35

forward. And

33:37

in a

33:38

strange way, we've

33:41

seen really obscure designers

33:43

come out of, most great designers come

33:46

out of nowhere. They're outsiders. Coco

33:48

Chanel was an outsider in effect.

33:51

Martin Margiela was an outsider. And

33:54

he had very different views of how

33:57

people should look and different views

33:59

of luxury that

33:59

in the beginning were rejected,

34:02

and which as we know, became really influential.

34:05

So, but

34:07

one of the things that people like Martin

34:09

had, and I think

34:11

still matter is a professional training,

34:14

is like he really understood how

34:16

to make clothes. And

34:20

he was thoroughly immersed in that. So,

34:23

and that still kind of matters. I

34:25

mean, that kind of, it definitely matters.

34:28

Definitely does. Thank you so much.

34:30

I really appreciate you taking the time to do this.

34:33

Pleasure, always fun to chat. Instead

34:35

of being in the back of a car, somewhere

34:37

in Milan or Paris, complaining

34:39

about why we're stuck in traffic. Yes. And

34:42

wondering where we can find something really

34:44

good to eat. Always, you

34:46

have the best restaurant

34:47

pick.

34:52

Thanks for listening to In Her Shoes. Today's

34:55

episode was produced and edited by Nishat

34:57

Kerba. Our engineers

34:59

are Jelani Carter and Brandon McFarland.

35:02

I'm your host, Lindsay Peebles. In

35:04

Her Shoes is a production of the Cut and New York

35:06

Magazine.

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