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0:53

Welcome to In Her Shoes. I'm Lindsay Peoples,

0:55

and I'm Editor-in-Chief of The Cut. On

0:58

this show, I get to talk to people that we love

1:00

and admire or some that we just find interesting.

1:03

We'll explore how they found their path and

1:05

what maybe have gotten in their way and

1:07

how they brought others along now that they've arrived.

1:16

So, five years ago, I

1:18

wrote a piece called Everywhere and Nowhere,

1:21

What It's Really Like to Be Black and Work in

1:23

Fashion. This meant a lot

1:25

to me for many reasons, but

1:28

the main one would be the fact that

1:30

I wanted to talk about

1:32

the lack of inclusivity and diversity

1:35

in the industry in a way

1:37

that

1:38

would hold the industry accountable and

1:41

attempt to move things forward. And

1:44

Tracy Reese was one of the first designers

1:46

that

1:47

I personally remember adoring

1:49

and realizing that she was a Black

1:51

female designer. And so, to be

1:54

able to chat with her, I interviewed

1:56

her for this piece five years ago and

1:58

was able to reach out to her. now

2:01

as she's now the founder of Hope for Flowers. And

2:04

in particular she was a person

2:06

that was formative for me

2:08

in the industry and someone that I wanted

2:10

in the piece five years ago and now

2:13

because she is someone that has seen

2:15

so much as a black woman in the industry

2:18

and has been a champion for

2:20

black designers for decades. So

2:22

we were able to talk about what's changed and

2:25

how far she's come and

2:27

how much work still needs to be done. Okay

2:29

so in our traditional

2:31

in her shoes fashion I have to ask what kind

2:33

of shoes you have on right now

2:35

or what are your favorite pair of shoes

2:38

to wear right now and describe them for our

2:40

listeners of why you like these pairs

2:42

of shoes so much. You know what to be very

2:46

transparent I wear Birkenstocks

2:48

almost all summer long and I'm

2:50

wearing these like I'm

2:52

wearing these like leather or Jill Sander

2:54

Birkenstocks the ones that make

2:57

your big foot look even bigger. Those

3:02

are not regular Birkenstocks.

3:04

I wear regular Birkenstocks as well

3:06

just like Arizona two straps.

3:09

Okay

3:11

love that. Mm-hmm

3:13

I do wear a Birk

3:15

all the time. I know and it's funny though it's like

3:17

you know when fall is coming you're like

3:20

okay I have to upgrade slightly what

3:22

I'm doing here you know so

3:25

I've been on the hunt I don't

3:27

know I have to be in New York next week so I think I'll go

3:29

shoe shopping.

3:31

I love shoe shopping. So

3:34

I wanted to read back one of your quotes from

3:36

when I spoke to you five years ago

3:38

for the black and fashion piece.

3:41

You said I started my first collection in 86 87 and

3:45

had built enough relationships where people were

3:47

willing to take a chance on me but I definitely

3:49

felt like I wasn't taken seriously as a businesswoman.

3:52

Back in the day New York City's Garment District

3:55

was full of all these old men who had been in

3:57

the game for 30 and 40

3:57

years. I'm talking about

3:59

all

3:59

little factories and jobbers and trim people.

4:02

If they saw that you were serious, they'd give you a hard

4:04

time in the beginning, but if you persevered,

4:06

then they were in your corner. It didn't

4:09

matter what color you were, it just mattered if you were serious

4:11

about being a designer and surviving in the industry.

4:14

I would love for you to take me back to that

4:16

specific time in your life when you were just starting

4:18

the industry, trying to make connections

4:20

with

4:20

all these people. What did

4:22

that moment feel like for you

4:24

in navigating the fashion world and trying

4:27

for people to understand your vision?

4:29

Right. It's interesting too.

4:32

I mean, that was the 80s

4:33

and I think the 80s were different than the

4:35

90s. They're different

4:36

than the aughts.

4:37

I think that the 80s were strangely

4:40

a

4:40

little more inclusive than the

4:43

90s and the aughts were. We just

4:45

felt like all things were possible.

4:47

I think when you're young and

4:49

you're somewhat naive

4:51

and you're not jaded at all and you

4:53

haven't had a lot of

4:58

adversity, I'll put it that way, I think

5:00

that you're just going to

5:02

push through and you're going

5:03

to figure it out. All

5:06

of my friends were in a similar

5:08

boat. I went to school with Mark Jacobs.

5:11

He was starting

5:12

his business. My

5:14

friend Chris Isles

5:16

had a little store down in the East Village. Everybody

5:18

was doing their own thing.

5:20

They had those

5:21

infamous midnight fashion

5:23

shows like at Palladium. At

5:26

least once a week, he'd be down there helping

5:28

somebody backstage

5:31

get their little runway thing together.

5:33

There was just the spirit

5:36

of can do.

5:39

I think that we rode that

5:41

wave and it

5:44

fueled us. We kept

5:46

each other afloat because everybody

5:49

was in the same boat. Nobody was

5:51

making money. We were

5:53

all hopeful that we would

5:55

get

5:56

a strong enough launch that we would

5:58

catch the eye

5:59

of a backer,

6:01

you know, that was always the thinking

6:04

back in the day. But it was,

6:06

it was exciting. It was challenging

6:08

as hell, but it was exciting.

6:10

I mean, I would be in the factory,

6:12

like

6:14

clipping threads off my production

6:16

and putting hang tags on. And I remember

6:19

my friend Eric Gaskin coming over to help

6:21

me put the poly bags on. And we,

6:24

we hailed taxis to

6:27

take the production up to Bergdorf

6:29

Goodman because they're receiving

6:31

closed at 230. And it's just like, we've got

6:33

to get up there, you know, and we're in these taxis going

6:36

up, he's in a taxi ahead of mine

6:38

and I'm following and we're

6:40

like,

6:41

get to 59th street and

6:43

sixth Avenue. And I see

6:45

him get out of his taxi and he starts running

6:48

down 58th street. So he could get his foot

6:50

in the door before they closed. We

6:52

all did it together. I would see like

6:54

six other designers at UPS on the

6:56

31st or the 30th of the month, loading

7:00

up, you know, our production to ship to

7:02

stores. And we were all

7:04

there like at closing time, you know, writing

7:06

out our bills of lading and doing all

7:09

of the, the grunt work. We did it

7:11

all ourselves, but it was,

7:13

it was an incredible energy, you know. When

7:15

you talk about those decades, walking

7:17

through a bit of what you feel like was

7:20

a defining point in each and the differences,

7:22

because you've obviously seen the

7:24

fashion industry shift so much. And

7:26

I think

7:27

for people now, we take so many of

7:29

these things like social media and that for granted,

7:32

I know that was obviously not even a

7:36

reality in the eighties, nineties, but

7:38

walk me through what you feel like the differences

7:40

were in each decade of you working

7:42

in fashion. Yeah. So the eighties, that

7:44

was a kind of

7:46

a good explanation of just the

7:48

energy of it and the energy

7:51

of New York and, and

7:53

the fashion district was

7:56

intact. You know, there were all of

7:58

these small factories. and

8:01

trim suppliers. It was like the

8:03

old fashion industry in New York. The

8:06

90s, you know, I started working for others.

8:08

I worked for Perielas. I worked for

8:11

a bridge company called

8:13

Magashone and they ultimately put my name on the

8:15

label when we started having runway shows.

8:18

But still we're looking

8:20

at a fashion week in New York. New

8:22

York fashion week was like 40 shows,

8:26

you know? And it was

8:28

during the 90s that 7th on 6th was established.

8:33

Because remember we first started showing

8:36

at Parsons. They had that auditorium.

8:38

You know, we were students

8:40

back in the 80s, we would sneak into that auditorium

8:42

to see the Anne Klein show or whatever

8:45

runway shows were happening there. But

8:49

fashion week became centralized in

8:51

the 90s and it became larger

8:54

because IMG

8:56

stepped into the picture and it really

8:58

kind of blew New York fashion week

9:01

up into, you know, this huge

9:03

event. So it was much more

9:06

private before and this was way before

9:08

social media. It was strictly industry.

9:10

It was editors and buyers,

9:14

you know? So it was a much more intimate

9:16

thing. And you knew

9:19

who all of your buyers were. You

9:21

knew the editors. You know,

9:23

it was just a much smaller circle.

9:26

And people knew you,

9:29

you know? And luckily by the 90s, I

9:32

had between those experiences built

9:34

up more of a reputation for myself. So

9:37

when I launched my own brand again

9:39

in 96,

9:41

I knew who my buyers were. I

9:43

knew the buyer at Saks. I knew the buyers at

9:45

Nordstrom. I knew, you

9:47

know, the buyers at Bindels and Bergdorf's.

9:49

And

9:50

we were able to get the product placed.

9:53

And I was brought up to sort

9:55

of just chart

9:57

my own path and sort of not let it go.

9:59

look to the left and right

10:01

and not worry about what

10:03

I

10:03

wasn't getting

10:04

due to my race. It was just

10:07

like, you know what, I'm, I

10:09

am me and I know that I have these capabilities

10:12

and I'm going to move forward. So

10:14

if something doesn't come my way, then

10:17

it wasn't meant for me. Yeah. And

10:20

I still feel that way,

10:22

but I think that

10:24

when I started my business the second time

10:27

and you know, it got larger, a lot,

10:30

I had a really strong LA

10:33

rep who reps the line and

10:37

people were under the impression

10:38

that I was white and that

10:40

I was LA based because

10:42

her

10:43

business was so strong. And

10:45

I remember thinking to myself,

10:48

I don't need to disabuse them of that

10:50

idea. When I first started that business,

10:52

I had a black sales rep in New York.

10:55

Her name was Tony Jones and we were friends.

10:58

We were like, okay, you know, she was very

11:00

like-minded. We're going to make this happen.

11:02

I swear, Lindsay, we could not

11:04

get arrested.

11:07

It was, there was something about the

11:09

two of us together that was too

11:11

much for people.

11:14

And we, we would

11:16

scratch our heads because she was well known.

11:19

She had a following.

11:20

I was known. I had a following

11:23

together. It was like one plus one

11:25

equals zero. It was crazy.

11:28

And after about

11:30

nine months, she bowed out and

11:32

a friend of hers who was white

11:36

and we were in the same showroom space. They

11:38

were sharing showroom space. The

11:40

other rep said, I'll take the line. All

11:43

of a sudden it blew up.

11:46

And it was like they only could take a small

11:49

dose,

11:50

you know, one of us at a time. And then

11:52

Tony opened up her own showroom and she

11:55

also, you know,

11:57

became more successful without me. So

11:59

we became more

11:59

successful without each other. I don't

12:02

know

12:03

what that was about. I mean, I sort of

12:05

do.

12:06

But it was very

12:08

interesting. And we

12:10

would look back on that and kind of scrap

12:12

our heads like, wow, that was special.

12:16

But it was the beginning of only

12:19

one person in the room I felt. Because I'd

12:22

never felt that when I was

12:24

younger. I never felt that in the 80s.

12:27

But in the 90s, I did feel

12:29

that way. When

12:31

I worked at Magashone, my boss was

12:34

Asian. She was Chinese. And she

12:37

had factories in Hong Kong

12:39

and in China. And I remember

12:42

it was very important for her that I wear designer

12:45

accessories. She'd buy me Gucci shoes

12:47

and Hermes scarves. And it was

12:49

like this validation, like

12:52

putting me in luxury labels made

12:54

me acceptable in the space. But

12:56

she would do the same for herself too.

12:58

And I remember

13:01

there being that little undercurrent of

13:04

you have to make yourself acceptable

13:06

to be in certain spaces

13:10

by wearing luxury goods.

13:12

Yeah. I mean, I'm curious though, because

13:15

I feel like you have always been a person

13:17

who

13:19

understands the landscape, but also

13:21

was

13:21

very like, I'm focused on what

13:24

I'm doing. And like

13:26

aware of everything, but also just very focused

13:28

on what you wanted to do. And

13:32

I know that you've also just experienced a lot

13:34

that has been discouraging as

13:36

well. And so I'm curious of when

13:39

you felt like you had

13:41

the courage

13:42

or just

13:45

enough strength in yourself to say like, I really

13:47

want to go out on my own, regardless

13:49

of being aware of all of the pitfalls

13:52

and downfalls and where your head was at that

13:54

time.

13:55

Yeah. And I really didn't,

13:57

I didn't see it as pitfalls and

13:59

downfalls. I really saw

14:01

it much more

14:03

as what I wanted to do and

14:05

what I was sure I could accomplish.

14:09

We were prepared as children to work hard.

14:12

I remember my dad sitting us down and saying,

14:14

you're going to have to work harder.

14:16

You're going to have to do more to succeed.

14:19

He was very clear about

14:21

it. He was someone who

14:23

worked in the automotive industry

14:26

for decades and was passed over

14:28

for position after position, training

14:31

white executives for

14:33

the jobs that he was already doing

14:36

without the title. And he

14:38

was only the second black plant

14:40

manager in the big three here in

14:42

the US. But it was a struggle

14:44

for him to get there. And he

14:47

really experienced so much more

14:49

discrimination than I ever

14:52

felt.

14:53

But I think it was super important

14:55

to me to succeed

14:57

because I had been given all of these incredible

15:00

tools and I had all of this support

15:03

within my family and within

15:05

the industry from people that I had

15:07

worked for or worked alongside

15:09

in the past. So I

15:11

never felt that it

15:13

was not possible for

15:15

me.

15:16

I failed miserably

15:18

with my first business. And I honestly

15:20

attributed that to my youth,

15:23

my lack of experience, much

15:26

more than being

15:27

a female or being a person of color.

15:30

You know, so

15:32

when I came back the second time, I

15:34

felt better equipped. I had more experience.

15:37

I had an even broader network

15:40

and I've been blessed with opportunities

15:43

all along the way. I knew that I

15:45

had to consult alongside having

15:47

my own business to make ends

15:49

meet and I had those opportunities. So

15:52

what's happening out there and what's always been happening

15:54

is very legit, but I can't

15:57

carry that burden with me every day. I'm

16:00

optimistic, you know, and

16:03

I believe in me.

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Flash perfect. That's R-O-T-H-Y-S.com.

17:11

Flash perfect.

17:29

As a Black woman in the industry,

17:33

we, both of us, I think, know that

17:35

there's always an extra layer of navigation

17:38

and consideration for the

17:41

decisions that you make or the path that you

17:43

choose to go down. And

17:46

I think a lot of people, specifically,

17:48

when you're talking about designers, have chosen,

17:51

I really want to just have my own thing and

17:53

be off in my own world, and there are people who

17:56

really want to get into the fashion game and have shows

17:58

and do that, which is a whole other thing.

17:59

whole other ballgame.

18:01

Walk me through any of the pressures

18:04

that you're thinking through the first

18:06

door of the second time of you just understanding

18:08

when people were aware of

18:11

the pressure and

18:13

you being a Black female designer. Because

18:15

I think I remember

18:17

from the outside in, when I

18:20

first found out about

18:22

you and your designs, there

18:25

still hasn't even been a ton of Black female

18:27

designers. And I

18:29

can't imagine the kind of

18:30

pressure of being aware of that, but also

18:33

aware of the navigation that you have to have in

18:35

the industry.

18:35

And I think it's part of how we

18:38

were brought up and raised. I think some

18:40

of it, you just did it intuitively. I've

18:42

never been a person who

18:45

craves

18:46

publicity. And you

18:48

don't have to see my face. You

18:50

just have to see my work

18:52

and hopefully enjoy my work. And

18:56

I think that might have worked

18:58

in my favor to some degree in the earlier

19:00

days of the collection.

19:03

Because if you wanted to discriminate

19:05

against me or my clothing because I was

19:07

Black, you didn't know I was Black. I

19:09

would meet so many customers. By the

19:11

time we were doing trunk

19:14

shows with Nordstrom and things like that, their mouths

19:17

would kind of hang open because I wasn't who

19:20

they expected to see. But

19:22

that was on them. It couldn't be my

19:24

problem. We

19:25

were prepared by our

19:27

parents and by my grandparents

19:30

before them to show

19:32

up

19:33

in a certain way and

19:36

to

19:38

assume that we would be treated

19:41

correctly

19:43

if we came correctly.

19:45

And that

19:46

was just

19:48

how we were raised. And there

19:50

have been incidents here and there, but

19:52

by and large, I

19:55

felt

19:56

largely embraced. And I was grateful

19:58

for it.

19:59

There's another quote in here that I just

20:02

brought up and you said it's up to us to create

20:04

a strong network. People see the models

20:06

and designers, but they don't see the wholesale teams,

20:09

the buyers in training, the store managers and

20:11

fashion

20:11

directors.

20:12

We're not in positions of strength in retail

20:14

ranks and we're not controlling any part of the

20:16

supply chain.

20:18

That's true. In that

20:20

time, we're now, have you

20:22

seen us represented in those roles that

20:24

you've mentioned? Do you feel like there's actually

20:26

been a shift on that end?

20:28

There's been a slight shift, I

20:30

think, at retail, but

20:34

not the percentage.

20:35

We're not seeing 15% buyers

20:38

out there. Some stores

20:41

have definitely taken

20:42

the 15% pledge and they're

20:44

trying to stick with

20:46

it. That's been a very positive

20:49

thing, but some people have done it for show

20:52

and dropped lines the minute that

20:55

the music stopped, basically,

20:58

and left people hanging. That's

21:01

been very challenging, but

21:03

there's a few more people of color, black

21:06

people,

21:08

indigenous people, East

21:10

Indian people that I see when

21:13

I'm at market. There's a little bit more,

21:15

but

21:16

not the percentages that you would like

21:19

to see or that feel

21:21

correct. It's a slow process.

21:23

I think with this whole

21:26

Supreme Court ruling against affirmative

21:28

action, I think that we

21:31

really have to step up the pressure because I

21:33

think a lot of people are going to feel like,

21:35

oh, well, I don't have to do this

21:37

difficult thing anymore. It'll be

21:40

interesting to see if

21:42

people

21:43

keep their promises and their pledges. I haven't

21:46

seen much reporting lately on

21:49

what has the progress been.

21:51

At CFDA, we got tons

21:53

of pushback when Impact was

21:55

trying to

21:56

gather data from

21:58

different brands.

21:59

And there was just like, I mean, the pushback

22:02

was just

22:03

insane. You know, people did not want

22:05

to reveal the makeup of their

22:08

employees. They did not want to share that

22:10

information because it wasn't good. Some

22:13

people are opening up about it a little bit

22:15

more. Maybe their numbers have improved

22:17

slightly. I don't know. Um, but

22:20

where's the accountability really, you

22:22

know, and there isn't really a

22:24

body that can hold,

22:27

um, stores, brands, anybody

22:30

accountable. I mean, as

22:32

black people, we still have very

22:35

little stake in supply chain. I

22:37

mean, like, and some

22:39

of that is just, we all have

22:41

our,

22:42

our specialties, you know, the supply

22:44

chain is largely Asian since production

22:47

left the U S you know, and went

22:49

to China and Vietnam and all

22:51

of these Asian countries. That's

22:53

not terribly unusual, but

22:56

I think, you know, it's still important for

22:58

us to

22:59

have strong bonds either

23:02

with that community or create

23:05

our own supply chain. And not that

23:07

things have to be segregated, but

23:09

we are very much locked

23:12

out of the

23:13

root of the materials

23:16

and components and, and

23:18

the shipping networks and all the things that,

23:21

you know, are part of what makes this business

23:23

tick. We don't have to be

23:26

experts at everything.

23:27

We don't have to dominate every field,

23:30

but I find

23:32

that it can be challenging to develop

23:35

relationships if

23:37

we're not

23:38

represented,

23:40

you know, not impossible, but challenging,

23:42

more challenging.

23:44

I think in all of that though, what do you feel

23:46

like has actually changed? And

23:48

I mean, I, I talk about this with so many

23:50

people because I remember

23:53

doing the piece and being

23:57

worried about what people would

23:59

think about.

23:59

my motivations around it. I do

24:02

think that there used to be this overarching

24:05

feeling that if you want us to talk about racism, that

24:07

you were just complaining for no reason,

24:10

you don't want to hear it. And

24:12

it just had this simmering annoyance

24:15

in me

24:15

that I wanted to be able to talk about something without

24:18

people really listening

24:20

to us and actually understanding the issues.

24:22

But I do think now that

24:24

it has been five years,

24:27

I think there's less stigma around us

24:29

being able to talk about these things. But I

24:31

don't really feel that there's been such

24:34

a huge shift.

24:36

And I'm curious of what you think has

24:38

actually changed in the

24:40

industry. But you know, that piece that you

24:42

wrote, Lindsay, was groundbreaking that

24:44

sent shocks around the industry

24:47

for sure. And it did open the door

24:49

for more conversation. Of

24:52

course, after George Floyd, then,

24:54

you know, we saw more actual change

24:58

in activity, but a lot of it

25:00

was surface, you know,

25:03

and did not penetrate the

25:05

core

25:06

of a lot of issues. And, you

25:08

know, on the one hand, do

25:10

we put on our patients caps and saying,

25:13

okay, you know, things that

25:15

have been put in place in

25:17

the past two, three years, haven't

25:20

had a chance to grow

25:22

to fruition. And so maybe we

25:24

don't see as much progress

25:26

at this moment. But are we looking toward

25:30

an industry down the road that

25:32

is more equitable?

25:34

I

25:35

do definitely

25:38

see us

25:38

being

25:40

celebrated more. Is that also

25:42

a surface thing? Front rows

25:45

definitely are

25:46

more inclusive than they

25:48

were, although I don't really go to fashion

25:50

shows. But I'm gonna go to APOTS

25:53

next week, and I'm gonna go, you know, I'll

25:56

get around a little bit. But

25:58

it used to be like you you

26:00

had to feel thankful for

26:02

being included. And I think that

26:05

there's less of that, I

26:09

would agree. Count all the jillions of

26:11

times that you were the only

26:14

black editor

26:16

in a group

26:18

or

26:19

in a front row

26:20

or being talked about in the

26:23

media or any of that, it was

26:25

always kind of like one at a time. And

26:28

I do think that that has improved.

26:32

But when we talk about the industry

26:34

as a whole, it is kind of a snail's

26:37

pace.

26:37

But I'm hopeful

26:40

that a lot of the

26:43

work

26:43

that has been done in the

26:45

past two or three years

26:46

will begin bearing fruit,

26:50

because

26:50

it takes time. And I think

26:52

a lot of black designers too, who

26:55

had

26:56

small businesses that

26:58

were serving a DTC customer

27:03

really had to examine their

27:05

business and say, do

27:06

I want a wholesale business? Am I

27:08

ready to have a larger business?

27:10

And I think one of the interesting things about

27:12

now that's very different than

27:15

say 20 years ago, I

27:17

think designers and brands are really

27:20

kind of assessing

27:21

who am I, what

27:23

bandwidth do I have? How large

27:27

do I want or need to be? And how much do

27:29

I wanna sacrifice for

27:31

that? Is it appropriate for me to

27:33

be a mega brand? Is that what my

27:35

message is? Is that what my design

27:38

ethos

27:38

is tailored to? Or maybe

27:40

I want to do something that's

27:42

more personal and is more

27:44

expressive

27:44

of who I am. And

27:46

that means that I'm speaking to a smaller

27:49

audience. And I think it's not

27:51

just black designers and brands, it's the industry

27:53

as a whole. When we look at how

27:56

large the industry is and how large has

27:58

become in the past 20 years.

27:59

years, it is overwhelming. And

28:02

every brand

28:04

can't be a mega brand. We're already

28:06

overproducing. There's just too much product.

28:08

There's too much of everything. So

28:11

I think it is a question that every

28:13

designer has to ask themselves.

28:15

It's like, okay,

28:16

do I think I need to be huge? Or

28:19

do I want to be middle-sized? Or it should

28:21

be okay. Your choice should be okay for you.

28:24

It used to be that you were failing

28:26

if you weren't following this playbook. That

28:28

wasn't the recipe

28:30

for success if you decided you didn't want

28:32

to be massive.

28:34

That's an interesting conversation.

28:36

And I think it's wonderful to

28:37

have choice. You can be successful

28:39

on your own terms. What would you

28:41

say in watching and

28:43

witnessing all of these things in the industry

28:45

has

28:46

changed for

28:48

you personally in the last five years?

28:51

I've grown into

28:53

that understanding that I do

28:55

have choice. I'm really focused

28:57

on different kind of

28:59

business model now. And I feel

29:03

entirely

29:03

comfortable here

29:05

in Detroit with a smaller

29:07

brand that has

29:10

a mission in the community.

29:12

So it's been very

29:14

freeing to say, I'm going to tailor

29:17

this business to where

29:19

my heart and head is right

29:21

now. Trying to work responsibly, trying

29:23

to learn and teach more about

29:26

sustainability, giving back

29:28

to my community, all of that fuels

29:30

the other creativity. And

29:33

being able to step

29:36

off

29:36

of the hamster wheel and

29:39

do it in my own way at a pace

29:41

that suits me at this stage in my life

29:43

has been really, really,

29:46

really

29:48

fabulous. I'm super grateful

29:51

to be able to do this on my own

29:53

terms.

29:54

I also want to talk about the shift that

29:56

you've made to obviously to

29:58

talk a lot more about sustainability and

30:01

fashion and hope for flowers.

30:03

Tell me a bit why that was important

30:06

for

30:06

you to be at the forefront.

30:08

Right. You know, and a lot of it is

30:10

education, you know,

30:12

that's 2000, I think it was 2016,

30:15

maybe CFDA launched

30:17

the first CFDA Lexus

30:20

fashion initiative, which was this

30:22

whole

30:23

cohort of designers

30:26

learning how to work more

30:28

responsibly, how to embrace sustainability,

30:31

how do

30:32

you design, you know, it's impossible

30:34

to be 100% sustainable. It's absolutely

30:37

not possible, but we

30:39

can all work in a much more responsible

30:42

and mindful and intentional way, but

30:44

it takes work and it's a different approach.

30:47

And I think a lot of us were trained one way

30:49

and you sort of have to untrain yourself and

30:52

retrain yourself to work another way.

30:55

But I think for me,

30:58

the more I learned about it, and

31:00

the more, especially Lindsay, that

31:02

I learned, you know, when you look at the hard

31:05

facts, you know, 80% of garment workers are women. 80%

31:09

of those women are women of color,

31:11

whether they're black, brown,

31:13

Asian,

31:15

whatever. And

31:18

they're living below the poverty line,

31:20

based on the wages that they're being made. And

31:23

as fast fashion gained such

31:25

a strong foothold in the industry,

31:28

it just oppressed and pushed down,

31:30

you know, all of those labor costs to

31:33

like, as an incredibly indecent

31:35

place, you know, where someone

31:38

is being paid by the piece, maybe they're

31:40

making 50 cents to make a whole dress.

31:43

It's really terrible. So

31:45

I remember, you know, we went to the Copenhagen

31:48

Global Fashion Summit,

31:50

and these statistics are being

31:52

laid out. And it's like, it's, it's

31:55

so disheartening and mind blowing, you

31:57

know, and we look at all of the

31:59

waste.

31:59

And we look at

32:00

how especially Americans waste and then

32:02

we ship our garbage to Africa

32:05

and to Asia and they're living in piles

32:07

of our like discarded goods.

32:10

You know, you have to say to yourself, do I want

32:12

to be a part of this system?

32:15

You know, and I was really at a point where it's

32:18

just like, do I leave the industry?

32:20

Do I stop producing? Do

32:22

I, you know, I don't want to be just adding waste.

32:25

And I was working like a mother, you

32:28

know, we're like working 50 and 60. Weeks

32:31

to just like churn out these collections

32:33

and the stores are insisting that you ship every

32:35

month, you know, and your

32:37

business is at a size where

32:40

you need to ship every month for cashflow

32:42

reasons. So you're just in this like kind

32:44

of never ending cycle

32:45

and it was becoming

32:47

more of a burden than a pleasure. And,

32:50

you know, I said to myself, you're

32:52

in this industry

32:53

doing something that you

32:55

love for a living and you're not enjoying yourself.

32:57

That's on you. And

32:59

if you're not proud of yourself

33:02

because, you know, you're

33:03

part of a problem, that's also

33:06

on you. And I was like, I'm more

33:08

intelligent than this either,

33:09

you know, I'd switch careers

33:12

or I learned how to do this in

33:15

a way that I can be proud of. Yeah. So

33:18

that was really all that was going

33:20

on in my head between 2016 and 18. And

33:24

I finally was selected to be

33:27

part of the cohort for the

33:29

fashion initiative. And that was extremely

33:31

helpful for me. It was like nine months

33:34

of learning how to work more responsibly.

33:37

And then we had to write a blueprint,

33:39

which was

33:39

basically a business plan. And we had to put

33:41

it into action.

33:41

I think that, you

33:44

know, sustainability isn't just about

33:46

materials. It's not just about process.

33:49

It's not just about supply chain. It's

33:51

also sustainable communities.

33:54

It's personal, you know, are you, are you

33:56

recycling? Are you composting? Are you minding your

33:58

waste? Are you teaching? this to young

34:00

people and I realized that

34:02

it was also extremely,

34:06

extremely elitist.

34:07

A lot of the circles that we're in talking

34:09

about sustainability and it's like how do we

34:12

make this accessible? It has

34:14

to be accessible

34:15

to all people. We all have to have

34:17

agency to play a role

34:20

in

34:21

creating the future

34:23

that we hope we can leave to

34:25

the next generations. And that starts

34:27

with young people, it starts with the babies

34:30

because they will go home and say to

34:32

their moms and their dads, how come we're not recycling?

34:35

How come you're wasting this? That's

34:37

within reach for every person,

34:39

not just an elitist person or somebody

34:41

who has

34:42

the money to buy organic.

34:46

There are a lot of tools that are within

34:48

reach of all people. So that

34:51

was extremely important to me that I'm

34:53

speaking to

34:54

my audience here in Detroit and beyond

34:58

and spotlighting some simple

35:00

tools that we can all incorporate

35:02

into our lives.

35:04

I mean, for you personally, I know you were talking

35:06

about you just opened a permanent spot in Detroit

35:08

for Hope for Flowers. So congratulations.

35:10

Thank you. What would you say you

35:13

are most hopeful about in this next

35:15

chapter? Well, you know, I want

35:17

to continue the scope of what

35:20

we're offering the community. We have free programming

35:23

for youth and adults. We do

35:25

art enrichment on Saturdays because

35:27

that's just a part of our ethos.

35:29

It's like if you can approach things through

35:31

creativity, if you can find

35:33

that little seed in yourself that

35:36

we want to nurture, and

35:39

that's at the core of Hope for Flowers, then you

35:41

can approach problem solving in

35:44

a creative way. And so we're

35:46

teaching kids about little known

35:48

Black artists and Detroit artists

35:51

and what their techniques are. But we're

35:53

helping them to explore those techniques

35:56

with a lot of times recycled materials. You

35:58

know, they're painting on old buildings. cardboard

36:00

boxes or they're bringing things in

36:02

from home that can be elements

36:05

in their artwork.

36:06

And they're learning about the United Nations

36:09

Sustainable Development Goals. That's been a big

36:11

part of our programming because,

36:13

you know, when we talk about advocacy, yeah,

36:16

clean water is a right. No

36:18

poverty, quality education, caring

36:21

for life underwater, caring for life on

36:23

land. All of these things that we

36:25

have to be responsible for ourselves,

36:28

you know. So they're learning

36:30

about

36:32

those goals and we're also teaching

36:34

the same to adults. So

36:36

that's an experience

36:37

in creating a community. We've got

36:39

like 18 or 20 adults that come in

36:41

every Thursday evening and they

36:43

create art together, you know, whether they're

36:46

weaving or bookbinding or,

36:48

you know, creating spirit dolls

36:50

and memory boxes, using upcycled

36:52

materials. They love

36:55

that

36:56

spirit of community, of creativity

36:58

together. So this

36:59

is building some stronger communities

37:01

and then we do community workshops around

37:04

sustainability.

37:05

So teaching people how to men clothes,

37:07

that's one of our next workshops. We've

37:09

done recycling, composting,

37:12

green gardening. So we will

37:14

continue with these workshops. So to keep

37:19

this offering and

37:20

to develop a legacy here

37:22

in Detroit where we've got

37:24

a new generation of people who can say,

37:26

you know,

37:28

we had great Saturdays at Hope for Flowers

37:31

or we found community there. So

37:33

we're excited to be in this new space.

37:34

And then just, you

37:36

know, working with young

37:39

creative people here

37:39

in Detroit, there's so much talent here.

37:42

I've got a wonderful team here. Each one

37:44

of them has talent. Maybe this is an opportunity

37:47

that they wouldn't have been able to

37:49

find locally. You know, you shouldn't

37:51

have to go to New York

37:53

to be a part of the industry

37:55

if it's your passion. So to be

37:58

able to develop a team here.

37:59

and help them refine

38:02

their skills and learn more about the

38:04

industry, learn more about sustainability.

38:07

That's the part of the legacy that I want to leave

38:09

as well. Thank

38:10

you so much. I so appreciate

38:13

this conversation and I know

38:15

our readers will really enjoy it. I

38:17

hope so.

38:22

In Her Shoes is hosted by me, Lindsay Peoples.

38:24

Our lead producer is Taka Zen. Our

38:27

engineer is Brandeis McHarlan. I'm

38:29

Lindsay Peoples and thank you so much for listening.

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