0:01

Support for this episode comes from eBay. Whether

0:04

it's a holy grail pair of

0:06

sneakers, head-turning handbags, or one genuine

0:08

wardrobe staple, if you're always

0:10

on the hunt for that one wardrobe staple

0:13

you just gotta have, eBay gets it. Nothing's

0:15

more important than the real deal. When you

0:17

shop on eBay, all you have to do

0:19

is look out for that shiny blue checkmark

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that says Authenticity Guarantee, and you'll know that

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every inch, stitch, hole, and logo will be

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verified authentic through a detailed inspection. With

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eBay Authenticity Guarantee, real is

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always in reach. Ensure your

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next purchase is the real deal. Visit

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ebay.com for terms. Welcome

0:49

to In Her Shoes. I'm Lindsay Peeples, and

0:51

I'm Editor-in-Chief of The Cut. On this

0:53

show I get to talk to people that we

0:55

love and admire, or some that we just

0:57

find interesting. We'll explore how they

0:59

found their path, and what maybe have gotten in

1:01

their way, and how they've brought others

1:04

along now that they've arrived. So

1:12

five years ago, I wrote a piece

1:14

called Everywhere and Nowhere, What It's Really Like

1:16

to Be Black and Work in Fashion. This

1:19

meant a lot to me for many

1:22

reasons, but the main one would be

1:24

the fact that I wanted

1:26

to talk about the lack of

1:29

inclusivity and diversity in the industry

1:32

in a way that would

1:34

hold the industry accountable and attempt

1:36

to move things forward. And

1:39

Tracy Reese was one of the

1:41

first designers that I personally remember

1:43

adoring and realizing that she was

1:45

a Black female designer. And

1:48

so to be able to chat with her,

1:50

I interviewed her for this piece five years

1:53

ago and was able to reach out to

1:55

her again now as she's now

1:57

the founder of Hope for Flowers. In

2:00

particular, she was a person that

2:02

was formative for me in the

2:04

industry and someone that I wanted in

2:06

the piece five years ago and now

2:08

because she is someone that has

2:10

seen so much as a black

2:12

woman in the industry and has been

2:15

a champion for black designers for decades.

2:17

So we were able to talk about what's changed and

2:20

how far she's come and

2:22

how much work still needs to be done. Okay,

2:25

so in our traditional in her shoes fashion,

2:27

I have to ask what kind of shoes

2:29

you have on right now or

2:32

what are your favorite pair of shoes to wear

2:34

right now and describe them for our listeners of

2:36

why you like these pairs of shoes so much. You

2:39

know what, to be very transparent,

2:41

I wear Birkenstocks almost all

2:44

summer long and I'm wearing

2:46

these like, I'm wearing these

2:48

like leather or Jill Sander

2:50

Birkenstocks, the ones that make your

2:52

big foot look even bigger. Those

2:55

are not regular Birkenstocks.

3:00

I wear regular Birkenstocks as well,

3:02

just like Arizona two straps. Okay,

3:06

love that. I

3:08

do wear a Birk all

3:10

the time. I know and it's funny though,

3:13

it's like, you know, when fall is coming,

3:15

you're like, okay, I have to upgrade slightly

3:17

what I'm doing here, you know,

3:19

so I've been on the

3:21

hunt. I don't know, I have to be in New York next

3:24

week, so I think I'll go shoe shopping. I

3:26

love shoe shopping. So

3:29

I wanted to read back one of your quotes

3:31

from when I spoke to you five years ago

3:33

for the black and fashion piece. You

3:36

said, I started my first collection in 86, 87

3:40

and had built enough relationships where people were willing

3:42

to take a chance on me, but

3:44

I definitely felt like I wasn't taken seriously as

3:46

a business woman. Back in the day,

3:49

New York City's garment district was full of all these old

3:51

men who had been in the game for 30 and 40

3:53

years. I'm talking about all

3:55

the little factories and jobbers and trim people.

3:57

If they saw that you were serious, they'd give you a heart.

4:00

The time in the beginning but he persevered.

4:02

then they were in your corner. It didn't

4:04

matter what color you are just mattered. If

4:06

you are serious about being a designer and

4:08

surviving in the industry, I would love for

4:10

you to take me back to that specific

4:12

time in your life when you were just

4:14

starting industry trying to make connections with. All

4:16

these people. What? Did that

4:18

moment feel like for you and navigating

4:21

the fashion world and and trying for

4:23

people to. Understand your vision right? It's

4:25

interesting to have mean that was the

4:27

eighties and I think the eighties were

4:29

different than the ninety. That different than

4:31

the odds. I sang sat for

4:34

eighteen or a strange way. a. Little. More

4:36

inclusive. Than. The nine days

4:38

and the odds were you know we

4:40

just felt like all things were possible.

4:42

And I think when you're young, And

4:45

near somewhat naive, And. You're

4:47

not jaded at all, and

4:49

you haven't had a lot

4:51

of. Adversity.

4:54

Of that it that way. As Singh said,

4:56

you know you're just gonna push through and

4:58

your can. Figure it out in.

5:01

All. Of my friends were in a same

5:04

or similar boat in our went to

5:06

school with Marc Jacobs. He was starting.

5:08

His business my friend Chris

5:10

isles. Have. In store down on

5:12

the East Village everybody. Was doing their own

5:14

saying. You know they had those. Him

5:17

them as a midnight fashion shows

5:19

like And Palladium. You. Know

5:21

and like at least once a week it

5:23

be down there helping somebody. Backstage.

5:26

Get their little runway thing

5:28

together! So it was just

5:30

the spirit of Can Do.

5:33

And. I seeing said

5:36

we rode that waves and

5:38

it. Adds. Fuel that

5:40

see a now and it and we

5:42

kept each other afloat because everybody. Was

5:44

sort of in the same boat. Nobody was

5:46

making money. We. Were all

5:49

hopeful that we would. Get.

5:52

A strong enough to launch that we

5:54

would catch the eye of. A

5:56

batter. You know that was always

5:58

the same Came. Back in the day. But

6:01

it was exciting. It was challenging

6:03

as hell. But it

6:05

was exciting. I mean, I would be

6:07

in the factory, like, clipping

6:10

threads off my production and putting

6:12

hang tags on. And

6:14

I remember my friend Eric Gaskin's coming over

6:16

to help me put the poly bags on.

6:18

And we hailed taxis

6:21

to take the

6:23

production up to Bergdorf Goodman because

6:26

they're receiving clothes at 230. And it's just like,

6:28

we've got to get up there, you know, and

6:30

we're in these taxis going up. He's in a

6:32

taxi ahead of mine. And I'm following.

6:34

And we're like, get

6:36

to 59th Street and 6th

6:39

Avenue. And I see him get

6:41

out of his taxi and he starts running down

6:43

58th Street so he could get his foot

6:46

in the door before they closed. We all

6:48

did it together. I would see like six

6:50

other designers at UPS on the 31st or

6:52

the 30th of the month loading

6:55

up our production to ship to

6:57

stores. And

6:59

we were all there like at closing time,

7:01

writing out our bills of lading and doing

7:04

all of the grunt work. We

7:06

did it all ourselves. But it was

7:08

an incredible energy. When

7:11

you talk about those decades, walking through

7:13

a bit of what you feel like

7:15

was a defining point in each and

7:17

the differences, because you've obviously seen the

7:20

fashion industry shift so much. And I think

7:23

for people now, we take so many of

7:25

these things like social media and that for

7:27

granted, I know that was obviously not even

7:29

a reality

7:31

in the 80s, 90s. But

7:33

walk me through what you feel like the

7:35

differences were in each decade of you working

7:38

in fashion. Yeah. So

7:40

the 80s, that was a kind of a

7:42

good explanation of just the energy

7:44

of it and the energy

7:46

of New York. But

7:49

the fashion district was intact.

7:52

There were all of these small

7:54

factories and trim suppliers. It

7:57

was like the old fashion

7:59

industry. in New York. The 90s,

8:02

you know, I started working for others. I

8:04

worked for Perielis. I worked for a

8:07

bridge company called

8:09

Magashone and they ultimately put my name on

8:11

the label when we started having runway shows.

8:14

But still, we're looking at a fashion week

8:17

in New York. New York Fashion Week was like 40 shows,

8:21

you know, and it

8:24

was during the 90s that 7th

8:27

on 6th was established because I

8:29

remember we first started showing at

8:31

Parsons. They had that auditorium, you

8:33

know, and we were students back in

8:36

the 80s. We would sneak into that

8:38

auditorium to see the Anne Klein show

8:40

or whatever runway shows were happening there.

8:44

But Fashion Week became centralized

8:46

in the 90s and

8:48

it became larger because IMG

8:51

stepped into the picture and it and really

8:53

kind of blew New York

8:55

Fashion Week up into, you know,

8:58

this huge event. So it was

9:01

much more private before and this was

9:03

way before social media. It was strictly

9:05

industry. It was editors

9:07

and buyers, you know,

9:10

so it was a much more

9:12

intimate thing. And you knew

9:14

who all of your buyers were. You

9:16

knew the editors, you

9:18

know, it was just a much smaller

9:21

circle and people knew

9:23

you, you know, and luckily by

9:25

the 90s, I had

9:27

between those experiences built up more of

9:30

a reputation for myself. So when

9:32

I launched my own brand again in

9:35

96, I

9:37

knew who my buyers were. I knew the buyer

9:39

at Saks, I knew the buyers at Nordstrom, I

9:41

knew, you know, the buyers

9:43

at Bindels and Bergdorf's and we

9:46

were able to get the product placed. And I

9:49

was brought up to sort of just

9:53

chart my own path and sort of

9:55

not look to the left and right and not worry

9:57

about what I wasn't getting.

10:00

heading due to my race, it was just

10:02

like, you know what, I am

10:04

me and I know that I have

10:06

these capabilities and I'm going to move

10:08

forward. So if something doesn't come

10:11

my way, then it wasn't meant

10:13

for me. And

10:15

I still feel that way. But

10:18

I think that when I

10:20

started my business the second time and it got

10:22

larger, I had a really

10:26

strong LA

10:28

rep who reps the line and

10:32

people were under the impression that I was

10:34

white and that I was LA based because

10:38

her business was so strong. And

10:41

I remember thinking to myself, I

10:43

don't need to disabuse them of that idea.

10:46

When I first started that business, I had

10:48

a black sales rep in New York. Her

10:50

name is Toni Jones and we were friends.

10:53

We were like, okay, you know, she

10:55

was very like-minded. We're going to make

10:57

this happen. I swear, Lindsay, we

10:59

could not get arrested.

11:03

There was something about the two of

11:05

us together that was too much for people.

11:10

And we would scratch our heads

11:12

because she was well known. She had

11:14

a following. I was known.

11:16

I had a following. Together

11:19

it was like one plus one equals zero.

11:22

It was crazy. And

11:25

after about nine months, she bowed

11:27

out and a friend of hers

11:29

who was white and we

11:31

were in the same showroom space.

11:33

They were sharing showroom space. The

11:36

other rep said, I'll take the line. All

11:38

of a sudden it blew up. And

11:42

it was like they only could take a small

11:44

dose, you know, one of us

11:46

at a time. And then Toni opened

11:48

up her own showroom and she also,

11:51

you know, became

11:53

more successful without me. So we

11:55

became more successful without each other. I

11:57

don't know what that

11:59

was about. I mean, I sort of do,

12:02

but it was very interesting.

12:05

And we would look back on that and

12:07

kind of scraped our heads like, wow, that

12:09

was special. But

12:12

it was the beginning of only

12:15

one person in the room I felt,

12:17

because I'd never felt that when I

12:19

was younger. I never felt that like in the

12:21

eighties. But in the nineties,

12:23

I did feel that way. I

12:26

mean, when I worked at Magashone, my boss

12:28

was Asian, she was

12:31

Chinese. And she had factories

12:33

in Hong Kong and in China.

12:36

And I remember it was very

12:38

important for her that I wear

12:40

like designer accessories. She'd buy me

12:42

Gucci shoes and Hermes scarves. And

12:44

it was like this validation, like

12:46

kind of putting me in luxury

12:49

labels made me acceptable in the

12:51

space. But she would do

12:53

the same for herself too. And

12:55

I remember there being that

12:57

little undercurrent of you

13:00

have to make yourself acceptable to

13:02

be in certain spaces

13:05

by wearing luxury goods. Yeah.

13:08

I mean, I'm curious though, because I feel

13:11

like you have always been a person

13:13

who understands the

13:15

landscape, but also was very like,

13:17

I'm focused on what I'm doing. And

13:21

like aware of everything, but also just very focused

13:23

on what you wanted to do. Once,

13:26

and I know that you've

13:28

also just experienced a lot that has

13:31

been discouraging as well. And so I'm

13:33

curious of when you felt

13:35

like you had the courage or

13:40

just enough strength in yourself to say, like, I

13:42

really wanna go out on my own,

13:44

regardless of being aware of all of

13:46

the pitfalls and downfalls and where your

13:48

head was at that time. Yeah.

13:50

And I really didn't, I

13:52

didn't see it as pitfalls and downfalls.

13:54

I just, I really saw it

13:57

much more as what

13:59

I wanted to do. do and what

14:01

I was sure I could accomplish.

14:05

We were prepared as children to work hard. I

14:07

remember my dad sitting us down and saying, you're

14:09

going to have to work harder, you're

14:12

going to have to do more to succeed.

14:15

He was very clear about it. He

14:18

was someone who worked in

14:20

the automotive industry for decades

14:22

and was passed over for

14:25

position after position, training white

14:27

executives for the

14:29

jobs that he was already doing

14:31

without the title. He

14:33

was only the second black plant manager

14:36

in the big three here in the

14:38

US. But it was a struggle

14:40

for him to get there and he really

14:43

experienced so much more discrimination

14:45

than I ever felt.

14:48

But I think it was super

14:50

important to me to succeed because

14:53

I had been given all of these incredible

14:55

tools and I had all of this support

14:58

within my family and within the

15:00

industry from people that I had

15:02

worked for or worked alongside in

15:04

the past. So I never

15:07

felt that it was not possible for

15:10

me. I

15:12

failed miserably with my first business.

15:15

I honestly attributed that to

15:17

my youth, my lack

15:19

of experience much more than

15:22

being a female or being a person of color.

15:26

So when I came

15:28

back the second time, I felt better equipped.

15:30

I had more experience. I had

15:33

an even broader network and

15:35

I've been blessed with opportunities all

15:38

along the way. I knew that

15:40

I had to consult alongside having

15:43

my own business to make ends

15:45

meet and I had those opportunities.

15:47

So what's happening out there and what's

15:49

always been happening is very legit, but

15:52

I can't carry that burden

15:54

with me every day. I'm

15:56

optimistic and I believe in

15:58

me. Support

16:06

for this episode comes from eBay. Whether

16:09

it's a holy grail pair of

16:11

sneakers, head-turning handbags, or one genuine

16:13

wardrobe staple, if you're always on

16:15

the hunt for that one wardrobe staple you've just gotta

16:17

have, eBay gets it. Nothing's more

16:19

important than the real deal. When

16:22

you shop on eBay, all you have to

16:24

do is look out for that shiny blue

16:26

checkmark that says Authenticity Guarantee, and you'll know

16:28

that every inch, stitch, sole, and logo will

16:30

be verified authentic through a detailed inspection. With

16:34

eBay Authenticity Guarantee, real is always

16:36

in reach. Ensure your next

16:38

purchase is the real deal. Visit

16:40

ebay.com for terms. As

16:55

a Black woman in the industry, both

16:59

of us, I think, know that there's always

17:02

an extra layer of navigation

17:04

and consideration for the decisions

17:06

that you make or the path

17:08

that you choose to go down. I

17:12

think a lot of people, specifically when you're

17:14

talking about designers, have chosen, I

17:17

really want to just have my own thing and

17:19

be off in my own world, and then there

17:21

are people who really want to get into the

17:23

fashion game and have shows and do that, which

17:25

is a whole other ballgame. Walk

17:29

me through any of the pressures that

17:31

you're thinking through that the first or

17:33

the second time of you just understanding

17:35

when people were aware of the pressure

17:38

and you being a Black female designer,

17:40

because I think I

17:43

remember from the outside in when I

17:46

first found out

17:48

about you and your designs, there

17:50

still hasn't even been a ton of

17:52

Black female designers. I

17:55

can't imagine the kind of pressure of being

17:57

aware of that, but also aware of the

17:59

navigation. that you have to have in the

18:01

industry. And I think it's part of how

18:03

we were brought up and raised. I

18:05

think some of it, you just did

18:07

it intuitively. I've never been a person

18:10

who craves publicity, and

18:13

you don't have to see my

18:15

face. You just have

18:17

to see my work and hopefully

18:19

enjoy my work. And

18:21

I think that might have

18:24

worked in my favor to some degree in

18:26

the earlier days of

18:28

the collection, because if you wanted to

18:30

discriminate against me or my clothing because

18:32

I was black, you didn't

18:35

know I was black. I would meet so many

18:37

customers. Like by the time we were doing like

18:39

trunk shows with Nordstrom and things like that,

18:41

they were just like their mouths would kind of

18:43

hang open because I wasn't who

18:46

they expected to see. But

18:48

that was on them. It couldn't

18:50

be my problem. We were prepared by

18:53

our parents and by my grandparents before

18:55

them to show up in a certain

18:58

way and

19:02

to assume

19:05

that we would be treated correctly

19:09

if we came correctly. And

19:11

that was just

19:14

how we were raised. And

19:16

there have been incidents here

19:18

and there, but by and

19:20

large, I felt largely

19:22

embraced. And I was

19:25

grateful for it. There's another quote in

19:27

here that I just brought up and you

19:29

said it's up to us to create a

19:31

strong network. People see the models and designers,

19:33

but they don't see the wholesale teams, the

19:35

buyers in training, the store managers, and fashion

19:37

directors. We're not in positions of

19:39

strength in retail ranks and we're not controlling any

19:42

part of the supply chain. That's

19:44

true. In that time, we're now, have

19:48

you seen us represented in those roles that

19:50

you've mentioned? Do you feel like there's actually

19:52

been a shift on that end? There's

19:54

been a slight shift, I

19:56

think, at retail, but not...

20:00

not the percentage, you know, we're not seeing

20:02

15% buyers out

20:04

there, you know. Yeah, some stores

20:06

have definitely taken the 15% pledge

20:09

and they're trying to stick with

20:11

it. And, you know, that's been

20:13

a very positive thing,

20:15

but some people have done it for

20:17

show and dropped lines

20:19

the minute that the

20:21

music stopped, basically, and

20:24

kind of left people hanging. So

20:26

that's been very challenging, but

20:29

there's a few more people of color, Black

20:31

people, you know, Indigenous

20:35

people, East Indian people

20:37

that I see when I'm at market.

20:39

There's a little bit more, but

20:42

not the percentages that you would like

20:45

to see or that feel correct.

20:48

It's a slow process, and I think with

20:51

this whole Supreme Court ruling

20:53

against affirmative action, I

20:55

think that we really have to

20:57

step up the pressure because I think a lot

20:59

of people are going to feel like, oh well,

21:02

I don't have to do this difficult thing

21:04

anymore. So it'll be interesting to

21:06

see if people keep

21:09

their promises and their pledges. I

21:11

haven't seen much like reporting lately

21:14

on what has the progress been.

21:17

At CFDA, we got tons of

21:19

pushback when Impact was trying

21:21

to gather data from

21:24

different brands. And there

21:26

was just like, I mean, the pushback was

21:28

just insane. You know,

21:30

people did not want to reveal

21:32

the makeup of their employees.

21:35

They did not want to share that information

21:37

because it wasn't good. Some people

21:39

are opening up about it a little bit

21:42

more. Maybe their numbers have improved slightly. I

21:44

don't know. But

21:46

where's the accountability really? And

21:49

there isn't really a body

21:51

that can hold stores,

21:54

brands, anybody accountable.

21:57

I mean, as Black people, we still have to.

22:00

have very little stake in supply chain.

22:03

I mean, like, and some

22:05

of that is just, we all have our

22:08

specialties, you know, the supply chain

22:10

is largely Asian since production

22:13

left the US, you know, and

22:15

went to China and Vietnam and

22:17

all of these Asian countries. That's

22:19

not terribly unusual, but

22:22

I think, you know, it's still important for

22:24

us to have strong

22:26

bonds either with that

22:29

community or create our

22:31

own supply chain. And not that things

22:33

have to be segregated, but

22:35

we are very much locked

22:37

out of the

22:40

root of the materials

22:42

and components and

22:44

the shipping networks and all the things

22:46

that, you know, are part of what

22:48

makes this business tick. We

22:50

don't have to be experts

22:53

at everything. We don't have to dominate

22:55

every field, but I

22:58

find that it can be challenging

23:00

to develop relationships if

23:03

we're not represented. You

23:06

know, not impossible, but challenging,

23:08

more challenging. I think in

23:10

all of that, though, what do you feel

23:12

like has actually changed? And I mean, I

23:15

talk about this with so many people because I

23:18

remember doing the piece

23:20

and being

23:22

worried about what people would think

23:25

about my motivations around it. I

23:27

do think that there used to

23:29

be this overarching

23:31

feeling that if you want us to talk about

23:33

racism, that you were just complaining for no reason,

23:35

you don't want to hear it. Right. And

23:38

it just had this simmering annoyance

23:41

in me that I wanted to be able to

23:43

talk about something without people really

23:45

listening to us and actually understanding the

23:48

issues. But I do think now that

23:50

it has been five years, I

23:53

think there's less stigma around us being able

23:55

to talk about these things, but I don't

23:57

really feel that there's been such

24:00

a huge shift. Right. And

24:02

I'm curious of what you think has actually

24:05

changed in the industry. But you

24:07

know, that piece that you wrote,

24:10

Lindsay was groundbreaking that sent shocks

24:12

around the industry, for sure. And

24:14

it did open the door for

24:16

more conversation. Of course,

24:19

after George Floyd, then, you know, we

24:21

saw more actual change

24:24

in activity, but a lot of it was

24:27

surface, you know, and

24:29

did not penetrate the core of

24:32

a lot of issues. And, you know, on

24:35

the one hand, do we

24:37

put on our patients caps and saying,

24:39

okay, you know, things that have been

24:41

put in place in

24:43

the past two, three years,

24:45

haven't had a chance to grow

24:47

to fruition. And so maybe we

24:50

don't see as much progress at

24:52

this moment, but are we looking

24:55

toward an industry down the

24:57

road that is more equitable?

25:00

I do

25:02

definitely see us

25:05

being celebrated more.

25:07

Is that also a

25:09

surface thing? Front rows

25:11

definitely are more inclusive than

25:13

they were, although I don't really go

25:16

to fashion shows, but I'm gonna go

25:18

to APOTS next week and I'm gonna

25:20

go, you know, I'll get

25:22

around a little bit. But it

25:24

used to be like, you

25:26

had to feel thankful for

25:28

being included. And I think

25:30

that there's less of

25:33

that, you know,

25:35

count all the jillions of times

25:37

that you were the only only

25:40

black editor in a

25:42

group. Or in

25:45

a front row, or being

25:47

talked about in the media, or

25:50

any of that, you know, it was always kind of like

25:52

one at a time. And I

25:54

do think that that has improved. But

25:56

when we talk about that,

26:00

the industry as a whole, it is

26:02

kind of a snail's pace. I mean, but

26:04

I'm hopeful that

26:07

a lot of the work that

26:10

has been done in the past two or

26:12

three years will begin bearing

26:15

fruit because it takes time. And

26:17

I think a lot of

26:19

black designers too, who had, you

26:22

know, small businesses that were,

26:25

you know, they were serving a DTC

26:27

customer, but really had to

26:30

examine their business and say, do

26:32

I want a wholesale business? Am I

26:34

ready to have a larger business? And

26:36

I think one of the interesting things

26:38

about now that's very different than say

26:41

20 years ago, I

26:43

think designers and brands are really

26:45

kind of assessing who

26:48

am I, what bandwidth

26:50

do I have? How large

26:52

do I want or need to be? And how much

26:55

do I want to sacrifice for

26:57

that? Is it appropriate for me to be

26:59

a mega brand? Is that

27:01

what my message is? Is that what

27:03

my design ethos is tailored to? Or

27:06

maybe I want to do something that's

27:08

more personal and is

27:10

more expressive of who I am.

27:12

And that means that I'm speaking to

27:14

a smaller audience. And I think it's

27:16

not just black designers and brands, it's

27:18

the industry as a whole. When we

27:20

look at how large the industry is

27:22

and how large has become in the

27:24

past 20 years, it

27:26

is overwhelming, you know, and every brand

27:30

can't be a mega brand. We're already

27:32

over producing, there's just too much product,

27:34

there's too much of everything. So I

27:37

think it is a question that every

27:39

designer has to ask themselves. It's

27:41

like, okay, do I think I

27:43

need to be huge? Or do I want

27:45

to be middle-sized? Or it should be okay,

27:47

your choice should be okay for you. It

27:50

used to be that you were failing if

27:52

you weren't following this playbook. You

27:54

know, that wasn't like the recipe for

27:56

success if you decided you didn't want

27:58

to be massive. It's an

28:01

interesting conversation and I think it's wonderful

28:03

to have choice. You can be successful on

28:05

your own terms. What would

28:07

you say in watching and

28:09

witnessing all of these things in the industry

28:11

has changed

28:14

for you personally in the last five years?

28:17

You know, I've grown into that

28:20

understanding that I do have choice.

28:22

I'm really focused on

28:24

a different kind of business model now and

28:27

I feel entirely

28:29

comfortable here in

28:32

Detroit with a smaller brand

28:34

that has a mission

28:36

in the community. So

28:39

it's been very freeing to say, I'm

28:41

going to tailor this business to where

28:44

my heart and

28:46

head is right now. Trying to

28:48

work responsibly, trying to learn and

28:51

teach more about sustainability, giving back

28:53

to my community, all of that

28:55

fuels the other creativity.

28:57

You know, and being able

29:00

to kind of step off of

29:02

the hamster wheel and do it

29:05

in my own way at a pace that suits

29:07

me at this stage in my life has

29:10

been really, really, really

29:12

fabulous. I'm

29:16

super grateful to be able to do this

29:18

on my own terms. I

29:20

also want to talk about the shift

29:22

that you've made to obviously to talk

29:25

a lot more about sustainability and

29:27

fashion and hope for flowers. Tell

29:30

me a bit why that was important for

29:32

you to be at the forefront.

29:34

Right. You know, and

29:36

a lot of it is education.

29:38

You know, I think it was

29:41

2016, maybe CFDA launched

29:43

the first CFDA Lexus

29:46

Fashion Initiative, which was this

29:48

whole cohort

29:50

of designers learning how

29:53

to work more responsibly,

29:55

how to embrace sustainability, how

29:57

do you design? So

29:59

it's. impossible to be 100% sustainable.

30:02

It's absolutely not possible,

30:04

but we can all work in

30:06

a much more responsible and mindful

30:08

and intentional way, but it takes

30:10

work and it's a different approach.

30:13

And I think a lot of us were

30:15

trained one way and you sort of have

30:18

to untrain yourself and retrain yourself to work

30:20

another way. But I

30:22

think for me, the

30:24

more I learned about it and the more, especially

30:28

Lindsay, that I learned, when you look at

30:30

the hard facts, 80% of garment workers are

30:33

women. 80% of those

30:35

women are women of color, whether

30:38

they're black, brown, Asian,

30:41

whatever. And they're

30:44

living below the poverty line based

30:46

on the wages that they're being made. And as

30:49

fast fashion gained such a

30:51

strong foothold in the industry,

30:53

it just oppressed and pushed

30:55

down all

30:57

of those labor costs to an

31:00

incredibly indecent place, where

31:03

someone is being paid by

31:05

the piece, maybe they're making 50 cents

31:07

to make a whole dress. It's

31:10

really terrible. I

31:12

remember we went to the Copenhagen

31:14

Global Fashion Summit and

31:16

these statistics are being laid out.

31:19

And it's so disheartening

31:21

and mind blowing. And we

31:23

look at all of the waste

31:25

and we look at how especially Americans

31:28

waste and then we ship our garbage

31:30

to Africa and to Asia and they're

31:32

living in piles of our discarded

31:35

goods. You have to say

31:37

to yourself, do I want to be a

31:39

part of this system? And

31:42

I was really at a point where it's just like, do

31:45

I leave the industry? Do I stop

31:47

producing? I don't want

31:49

to be just adding waste. And

31:52

I was working like a mother, or

31:54

like working 50 and 60

31:56

hour weeks to just churn out these

31:58

collections and the stores are amazing. existing

32:00

that you ship every month, you

32:02

know, and your business at a, is

32:04

that a size where you need to

32:07

ship every month for cashflow reasons. So

32:09

you're just in this like kind of

32:11

never ending cycle. And it

32:13

was becoming more of a burden than a pleasure. And

32:16

you know, I said to myself, you're

32:18

in this industry doing something that you

32:20

love for a living and you're not

32:22

enjoying yourself. That's on you. And

32:26

if you're not proud of yourself, because

32:28

you know, you're part of

32:30

a problem, that's also on you.

32:33

And I was like, I'm more intelligent than this either,

32:36

you know, I'd switch careers or

32:39

I learned how to do this in a way that I

32:41

can be proud of. Yeah. So

32:44

that was really all that was going on in

32:46

my head between 2016 and 18. And

32:51

I finally was selected to be

32:53

part of the cohort for the

32:55

fashion initiative. And that was extremely

32:57

helpful for me. It was like

32:59

nine months of learning how

33:01

to work more responsibly. And then we

33:03

had to write a blueprint, which was

33:05

basically a business plan, and we had to put

33:07

it into action. I think

33:09

that, you know, sustainability isn't just

33:11

about materials. It's not just

33:14

about process. It's not just about supply

33:16

chain. It's also sustainable

33:19

communities. It's personal, you know,

33:21

are you, are you recycling? Are you composting?

33:23

Are you minding your waste? Are you

33:25

teaching this to young people? And

33:27

I realized that it was also extremely,

33:30

extremely elitist. A lot of

33:32

the circles that we're in

33:35

talking about sustainability and it's like, how

33:37

do we make this accessible? It has

33:39

to be accessible to all

33:41

people. We all have to have agency to

33:44

play a role in creating

33:47

the future that

33:49

we hope we can leave to

33:51

the next generations. And that

33:53

starts with young people, starts with the babies, because,

33:55

you know, they will go home and say to

33:57

their moms and their dads, how come we're not?

34:00

recycling, how come you're wasting

34:02

this? That's within reach for every

34:04

person, not just an

34:06

elitist person or somebody who has

34:09

the money to buy organic. There

34:11

are a lot of tools that

34:13

are within reach of all people.

34:16

So that was extremely important to

34:18

me that I'm speaking to my

34:21

audience here in Detroit and beyond

34:24

and spotlighting some simple tools that

34:26

we can all incorporate into our

34:28

lives. I mean for

34:30

you personally, I know you we were talking

34:32

about you just opened a permanent spot in

34:35

Detroit for Hope for Flowers, so congratulations. Thank

34:37

you. What would you say

34:39

you are most hopeful about in this

34:41

next chapter? Well you know

34:43

I want to continue the scope

34:45

of what we're offering the community.

34:47

We have free programming for youth

34:50

and adults. We do art enrichment

34:52

on Saturdays because that's

34:54

just a part of our ethos. It's like

34:56

if you can approach things through creativity, if

34:59

you can find that little seed

35:01

in yourself that you know we

35:03

want to nurture and that's at

35:05

the core report for flowers, then

35:07

you can approach problem solving in

35:09

a creative way. And

35:11

so we're teaching kids about little

35:14

known Black artists and Detroit artists

35:16

and what their techniques are, but

35:18

we're helping them to explore those

35:20

techniques with a lot of times

35:22

recycled materials. You know they're painting

35:24

on you know old cardboard boxes

35:27

or they're bringing things in from

35:29

home that can be elements in

35:31

their artwork and they're

35:33

learning about the United Nations Sustainable Development

35:36

Goals. That's been a big part of

35:38

our programming because you know when we

35:40

talk about advocacy, yeah clean

35:42

water is a right. No poverty,

35:45

quality education, caring for life underwater,

35:47

caring for life on land. All

35:49

of these are things that we

35:51

have to be responsible for

35:53

ourselves you know. So they're

35:56

learning about those

35:58

goals and we're also teaching the same

36:00

to adults. So that's an experience

36:03

in creating a community. We've got

36:05

like 18 or 20 adults that

36:07

come in every Thursday evening, and

36:09

they create art together, you know,

36:11

whether they're weaving or bookbinding or,

36:14

you know, creating spirit

36:16

dolls and memory boxes, using

36:18

upcycled materials, they love that

36:22

spirit of community of creativity

36:24

together. So this is building

36:26

some stronger communities. And then

36:28

we do community workshops around

36:30

sustainability. So teaching people how

36:32

to men clothes, that's one

36:34

of our next workshops. We've

36:36

done recycling, composting, green

36:38

gardening. So we will continue with

36:41

these workshops. So to keep this

36:45

offering and to develop

36:47

a legacy here in Detroit, where

36:49

we've got a new generation of

36:51

people who can say, you know,

36:53

we had great Saturdays

36:55

at Hope for Flowers, or we found community

36:57

there. So we're excited to be

36:59

in this new space. And then

37:02

just, you know, working with

37:04

young creative people here in Detroit, there's

37:06

so much talent here. I've got a

37:09

wonderful team here. Each one of them

37:11

has talent, maybe this is an opportunity

37:13

that they wouldn't have been able to

37:15

find locally, you know, you shouldn't have to

37:18

go to New York to be a part

37:20

of the industry if it's your passion. So

37:23

to be able to develop a

37:25

team here, and help them

37:27

refine their skills and learn more

37:29

about the industry and learn more

37:32

about sustainability. That's the

37:34

part of the legacy that I want to leave as well.

37:36

Thank you so much. I so

37:38

appreciate this conversation. And you

37:41

know, our readers will really enjoy it. I

37:43

hope so. In

37:48

Her Shoes is hosted by me, Lindsay Peoples. Our

37:51

lead producer is Taka Zen. Our

37:53

engineer is Brandy McArlin. I'm

37:55

Lindsay Peoples, and thank you so much for listening. Support

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