0:00

This is the BBC. A

0:30

question for you listeners. How

0:53

do you define your diet

0:55

or describe the way that

0:57

you eat? A

0:59

friend asked me this recently and

1:02

it got me thinking about my

1:04

relationship with animal foods and

1:07

how often I choose to

1:09

eat meat and dairy. I'm

1:11

by no means vegetarian or vegan

1:13

but the word omnivore doesn't seem

1:15

to fit either. I

1:17

dine out quite regularly and I

1:20

can't help but notice the

1:22

growth of plant-based eating. Whether

1:25

that's the amount of plant-based

1:27

products in supermarkets or

1:29

new vegan options on menus, it's

1:31

a movement that has been causing

1:34

waves through the food industry, creating

1:36

lots of debate and

1:39

whether this is conscious or not, it's

1:41

prompting a lot of us to figure

1:44

out where we sit on that diet

1:46

spectrum. I'm

1:48

Leila Kazim and in today's programme

1:51

I want to find out more

1:53

about the social and cultural changes

1:55

that have come about from

1:58

this recent explosion of eating. interest

2:00

in plant-based eating. My

2:04

first call was to the writer,

2:06

campaigner and food policy

2:08

expert, Rob Percival. Rob,

2:11

hello. Nice to meet you. So

2:13

it seems that the plant-based diet

2:16

is gaining in popularity

2:18

and what I'm trying to understand

2:21

is what effect this has had

2:23

on the food world. Our eating

2:25

culture, how we define our diets,

2:29

how would you sum up

2:31

the cultural shift on this

2:33

whole topic in the past decade or so?

2:35

It's a confusing picture I think. There are

2:37

two sort of phases that you can discern

2:40

across the past decade. There's this period leading

2:42

up to 2019, 2020

2:45

when veganism was growing in popularity, plant-based

2:47

was becoming trendier and that also peaked

2:49

around that time and then a huge

2:51

period of disruption ever since with COVID,

2:53

with disrupted food prices, to sort of

2:55

push back from the meat lobby, a

2:58

sort of counter move against the plant-based

3:00

movement and now we're in this sort

3:02

of churning, it feels like to

3:04

me, this churning cultural shift in which

3:06

some of these trends are yet to

3:08

really level out. So it's quite hard

3:10

to predict I think how it's going

3:13

to play out in the next few

3:15

years. And it feels like people, they

3:17

understand what veganism means and

3:19

they understand what vegetarianism

3:21

means and then you've got

3:23

this other term, plant-based,

3:26

which kind of feels like

3:28

a more flexible concept.

3:31

How do you understand the definition of that

3:33

term? Yeah I think it's a really important

3:35

distinction. I mean to start with veganism I

3:37

recognise that to be a band against

3:40

eating or using animals, typically an

3:42

ethical concern, a strong environmental concern

3:44

and I think you can differentiate

3:46

the growth of the vegan movement

3:48

from the explosive plant-based hype that

3:50

grew alongside it peaking around 2020

3:53

and spilling over to today. And the term

3:55

plant-based I think can either mean a diet

3:58

with no animal foods in it or... a diet

4:00

with reduced animal foods, there's some ambiguity. We

4:03

have all these plant-based products coming on the

4:05

market, a real sort of explosion of that

4:07

segment of the market, which we're now seeing

4:09

a bit of a contraction as well. But

4:11

again, again, those products are aimed at flexitarians,

4:14

at meat eaters as much as they are

4:16

vegans, strictly speaking. So a really

4:18

mixed picture in terms of where does

4:20

your identity lie if you're identifying as plant-based?

4:22

Is that rooted in ethics? Is that rooted

4:24

in health? Is that rooted in the environment?

4:26

And I think that people answer that question

4:29

in very different ways. And then you've got

4:31

the term plant focus. Plant

4:33

forward, plant rich. There's dozens of

4:35

these terms. A plant-focused way of

4:37

eating, I mean, that reflects so

4:39

many dietary patterns of so many

4:41

cultures going back for a long

4:43

time. Why do you think it's

4:45

now that this movement has gathered

4:47

so much momentum? There's something to

4:49

do with the rise in consciousness

4:51

around the climate and nature crises.

4:53

And there is a good body

4:56

of evidence saying that definitively our

4:58

diets do need to change. Our

5:00

foreign Western countries need to be consuming

5:02

less meat. And then there

5:04

was this real eruption of social media

5:06

interest and celebrity interest in plant-based eating

5:09

about five, 10 years ago, which suddenly

5:11

made it pretty cool to be going

5:13

plant-based. I think just a growing awareness

5:16

that the status quo isn't viable in

5:18

the future and that actually there are

5:20

other options. But certainly it feels like

5:23

the sands are shifting beneath us. And

5:26

what do you think the overall impact

5:28

of V. Ganyuri has had since

5:30

that started? I think the campaign

5:32

has effectively brought into the mainstream

5:35

the idea that plant-based diets can

5:37

be normal, enjoyable and fun. It's

5:40

maybe been a victim of its own success.

5:42

Certainly in the UK, signups have leveled off

5:44

over the past few years. It's still growing

5:47

globally. In a sense, it's probably contributed the

5:49

normalization of meat reduction, flexitarianism as it's called,

5:51

to the degree where people now think it's

5:53

quite normal to reduce meat consumption, but maybe

5:56

aren't as motivated to go fully plant-based because

5:58

there's that middle of the world. ground

6:00

which has emerged but it certainly had

6:02

a significant impact. In 2012

6:05

two passionate activists Jane

6:07

Land and Matthew Glover met and

6:10

came up with an idea which

6:13

would become the January, the charitable

6:15

campaign which invites people to do

6:17

a meat and dairy free month

6:19

at the beginning of the year.

6:22

This January marked a decade since

6:24

it launched and starting with about

6:26

3,000 signups in

6:28

the first year it has

6:30

grown into an international campaign

6:33

reporting approximately 25 million

6:36

people globally participating in

6:38

Veganyry in 2024 according

6:41

to research in partnership with YouGov.

6:44

I wanted to hear their story so I

6:46

had a chat with Jane and Matt to

6:48

find out how the idea evolved. We

6:50

met on a dating site, I was

6:53

on a vegetarian dating site and then

6:55

you were on vegan dating. Oh gosh

6:57

I didn't even know they existed. No.

6:59

All weird sort of things on the

7:01

internet. Yeah it was like one

7:03

of the deep dark areas of the internet where

7:05

there's vegan dating going on. I didn't realise when

7:08

we first started talking that she was only a

7:10

vegetarian but nevertheless we went on a date. The

7:12

rest is history I guess. Well it was sort

7:14

of vegan curious wasn't I when I met you

7:16

and I thought you really guided me through

7:18

it and you say it's a lot easier

7:20

than you think. How were the seeds of

7:23

this idea of Veganyry planted? There was

7:25

stoptober, there was dry January so we

7:27

were like could we do a vegan

7:29

month? January just seemed like the perfect

7:31

month when we thought it through you

7:33

know with new year's resolutions with people

7:35

more focused on health and well-being. Months

7:37

make ethical changes as well. When we

7:40

launched in that first year the media

7:42

really took it on board and at

7:44

the same time some supermarkets

7:46

started to show an interest. Ocado put

7:48

our logo on their website without even

7:50

asking us. At the time it was

7:53

a hobby you know the profits that we're

7:55

making from our business interests was funding this

7:57

so it was all pretty much the first

7:59

two or three years. self-funded. Yeah, and

8:01

then we started building it year

8:03

after year and getting people involved.

8:05

And it's really grown up and

8:07

become an adult organisation. Right at

8:09

the beginning, what were your main

8:11

hopes for veganry? We

8:14

always launched it as an individual diet

8:16

change pledge that we wanted to encourage

8:18

people to try vegan. It evolved much

8:20

more than we expected in the corporate

8:22

space. And I think we very quickly

8:24

realised that there was going to be

8:26

interest from retailers and restaurants

8:28

and that absolutely was organic, wasn't it?

8:30

And something that we didn't predict from

8:33

that first year. They very much came

8:35

to us. You know, they started coming

8:37

to us for advice. We were pushing

8:39

against a real open door. We felt

8:41

that's the biggest thing. The impact that

8:43

we've had is how the

8:45

corporate world has engaged with us

8:47

and embraced it. I think we're

8:49

very proud of that. That's what

8:51

ultimately happened. One

8:53

thing I would say as well is that a

8:55

lot of the vegan campaigns before veganry,

8:57

they came across as being judgemental

9:00

or it's an all or nothing

9:02

scenario. It was go vegan, do

9:04

it now, forever. I thought you

9:06

were an awful person. Yeah. And

9:09

veganry wasn't about that. No,

9:11

we wanted, although deep down

9:13

that's what we want people to do, but

9:15

you know, our strategy was much kind and

9:18

much friendlier. It was just saying, look, give

9:20

it a go for a month. If in

9:22

February you go back to your previous diet,

9:24

that's absolutely fine with us. How would you

9:27

say the rise of the

9:29

plant-based movement has affected

9:32

veganism and the vegan community? It's

9:34

a contentious question. And

9:36

I think there's a divide in the

9:38

vegan movement, isn't there? Some would be

9:40

like veganism is a lifestyle. It's not

9:43

a diet. It can maybe set a

9:45

confusing message. I think we're probably more

9:47

on the other side of things where

9:49

it's that if it wasn't for these people

9:51

eating this way, then we wouldn't be seeing

9:53

the change that we are in society. We

9:55

wouldn't be seeing the change in the corporate world.

9:58

It's what strategies are going to help. us

10:00

reduce the suffering of animals to the

10:02

greatest degree. We're on the pragmatic side.

10:04

We're open-minded to different theories of change

10:06

and we felt that we've got to

10:09

meet people where they are. It's about

10:11

moving society as fast as we can

10:13

but ultimately gradually in the right direction.

10:16

Jane Land and Matthew Glover on

10:18

how the Veganuary campaign became one

10:20

of the catalysts for more

10:22

of us dabbling with the plant-based way of

10:24

eating and its inclusive nature is

10:27

very much mirrored in the place I'm going

10:29

to next. It is lunchtime

10:32

and I'm starting to see some plates from your

10:34

restaurant come out. I think we need to try

10:36

some of your food. Let's do it. Mariel

10:39

Armitage is a chef and founder

10:41

of Club Mexicana, a vibrant

10:43

vegan restaurant which is made

10:45

from supper club to street

10:47

food vendor to having three

10:49

branches across London over the

10:51

last decade. We met over

10:54

some of her amazing jackfruit

10:56

short rib tacos to talk

10:58

about how the perception of

11:00

plant-based and vegan restaurants has

11:02

changed in that time. The reason

11:04

that I started Club Mexicana was

11:06

I came back from travelling different

11:09

countries, Australia, America, Mexico, loads

11:11

of vegan options everywhere. I came

11:13

back to London and there was

11:15

very little and what there was

11:18

was a sort of very ethics-based

11:20

small-scale cafes that had a very

11:22

hardcore vegan audience. What

11:24

I wanted to do with Club

11:27

Mexicana was change the perception of

11:29

vegan foods, look more interesting, be

11:31

bright, vibrant, tasty and also allow

11:33

people to eat vegan food without any

11:36

sort of judgement or ethics being forced

11:38

on them. I just wanted it to

11:40

be about the food and the ingredients

11:43

and I think the changes that we've

11:45

seen in that time have

11:47

been monumental really. From the size

11:49

of the audience to the dishes

11:51

that have been created, the number

11:53

of vegan dishes that are now

11:55

on non-vegan restaurants' menus, very much

11:57

the size of the food. I

12:00

think just the interest in it has soared.

12:02

How do you describe the menu here,

12:04

vegan or plant-based? Because you've used those

12:07

two words, kind of interchangeably. We've always

12:09

used vegan for Club Max Ghana. It

12:11

says what we do on the tin, and I

12:13

think plant-based is a bit softer, and also

12:16

maybe doesn't have to adhere to the

12:18

rules as strictly as vegan. I

12:21

think a lot of people associate the

12:24

word vegan with an identity. And

12:26

so even if someone might like to mostly

12:28

eat plants, they don't identify

12:31

as a vegan, whereas plant-based maybe to

12:33

people is more of your type of

12:35

diet. Yeah, I mean, you're totally right.

12:38

I think vegan is a bit of

12:40

an identity thing. The key thing for

12:42

us, actually, is about making

12:45

everything look amazing, taste amazing, rather than,

12:47

and I think this was the problem

12:50

with where vegan food

12:52

or plant-based food was previously,

12:54

in that it was labelled before anyone

12:56

had even got a chance to try it,

12:59

and like you said, if that's seen as

13:01

an identity that people

13:03

don't prescribe to, then that immediately

13:05

puts people off. So that's kind

13:08

of what we've tried to do,

13:10

is break down those preconceptions and

13:12

those barriers that stop people from

13:14

coming in. So what I'd like to

13:16

know is the customers you get here are quite

13:18

a high proportion of our customers are

13:20

not vegan. Now, you don't have to be

13:22

a vegan to plant-based food. The number of

13:24

people that I talk to every time I

13:26

tell them what I do, they're

13:28

so quick to tell me how they

13:30

have changed their eating habits and they

13:33

now eat plant-based like three or four

13:35

times a week from day one of

13:37

trying to recreate sort of Mexican meaty

13:39

classics, but in a vegan way. For

13:41

us, that's not about buying in some

13:44

vegan chicken. We make everything from scratch.

13:46

We don't use any processed food. It's

13:49

About creating things that have a sense

13:51

of familiarity to them. And Some of

13:53

our best and most loyal customers are

13:55

like the hardiest meat-eaters, but I think

13:57

that they like new things. They like...

14:00

The different flavors going off and

14:02

a mouse and that's why they

14:04

come in and they keep coming

14:07

back. Mariel arms he'd have Club

14:09

Mexicana That are we really the

14:11

common of com face and flips

14:13

is Harriet. As we think last

14:16

year media headlines about segment of

14:18

falling sales of com both products.

14:20

Prompted questions of the so called. Vague

14:23

and bubble bursting, but also pointed

14:25

out that challenges such as the

14:27

Cost of Living crisis and an

14:30

overcrowded market could be contributing to

14:32

the to. To make sense

14:34

is all the latest. Data on the

14:36

number of people following a flex

14:38

a tear diet it's over to

14:40

sorry what it can seem, a

14:42

journalist specializing in what supermarket cell

14:45

and what we put into our

14:47

shopping baskets. so the data is

14:49

unbelievably confusing. Result of it relies

14:51

on surveys commissioned often by very

14:53

interested parties said a lot of

14:55

the status conflicting because a lot

14:57

of people say that they may

14:59

be feet and or they may

15:02

be sectarian. All they release of

15:04

that the best. Data is what

15:06

goes into people shopping baskets

15:08

and over the supermarkets. to

15:10

know. What? We are buying

15:12

so the rise of Flexes arianism

15:15

is real and we know this

15:17

because people in the same shopping

15:19

basket all pissing in. Vacancies.

15:23

Or V gun sausages alongside

15:25

some mins. Authentic, impress people

15:27

are experimenting their broadening out

15:29

what sort of things. Eight

15:31

the most reliable data for

15:33

me. Is the incredibly details

15:36

family sued survey which the government

15:38

has run every year since the

15:40

nineteen forties and it macys volume

15:42

rather than valley And in very

15:44

simple terms, this government survey of

15:47

fi south of families shows we

15:49

are eating less meat we eating

15:51

actually quite substantially less meat year

15:53

on year and and we have

15:55

be for the last decade. This

15:58

has been a real chase. Hickory

16:00

Way to me is a fun of beef

16:02

chicken less so tickets pretty flat cheese is

16:04

holding up incredibly well. Now eat more cheese

16:07

now than we Eight ten said he more

16:09

than we A twenty years ago we had

16:11

think that sent in the Uk that the

16:13

guns committed. These may come. To. Percent

16:16

at most of the population. So

16:18

you gov they be running with

16:20

since at least two to ninety

16:22

say in Twenty nineteen thirteen percent

16:24

of people said that they adopt

16:26

it affects the terrorists diet. In

16:28

twenty twenty to seek out sixteen

16:30

percent backing twins twins for few

16:32

weeks ago down back to thirteen

16:34

percent they say oh habits. So

16:36

how has supermarkets? Responded to

16:39

this grace of the palm based trend

16:41

in terms of what they're offering.

16:43

their customers said the supermarkets Initially they

16:45

saw all the search data and say

16:48

to start offering far amounts of the

16:50

confessions but a pretty ruthless if

16:52

it doesn't sell enough on it's taking

16:54

up valuable shelf space than the other

16:57

things. Gonna go back In to the

16:59

been a slight reversal. we seen

17:01

a bit of a backlash says hack

17:03

quite a big sausage maker com the

17:06

amounts of the conversions quencher matic. Lead

17:08

austere on. they admitted that they got over

17:10

excited by the search data and what people

17:12

said that they were eating rather see what

17:15

they are putting in the basket. Think

17:18

this can assist in

17:21

sales? Say guess signals and

17:23

leveling off of an interest in

17:25

this way of a thing? Or

17:27

is it just sort of part

17:29

of the not to let them

17:31

fly as hell a market might

17:33

gradually become established. I think is

17:35

exactly that. I think people still

17:37

very interested in cutting back on

17:40

their meat body to save money

17:42

but enough to help the environment

17:44

where health the real can. The

17:46

slogan a Vulture processed Food movement

17:48

rather yeah I'm see you Pf

17:50

movement is. On a Tabby simplistic

17:52

message is not an ingredient in your kitchen

17:54

store cupboard. You should really be seen as

17:56

I think that's one of it's he reasons

17:59

why lot. Even though meat eating

18:01

is falling article continues for is the

18:03

same time feet and products to know

18:05

think I wealth. Can. Seem a

18:07

journalist sorry wallet. Will the

18:10

cultural a set of all of

18:12

this is now something that's been

18:14

studied more and more. but academics

18:16

at the University of Sheffield see

18:19

Geographer book The Attic fix them?

18:21

Recently published a paper examining the

18:23

mainstreaming of veganism, including the impact

18:25

of the corporate mates of the

18:28

trend. And it becoming so

18:30

influential in the online and

18:32

social media wells. Some other

18:34

tensions that have come from

18:36

the trends us even mainstreaming

18:38

have been to splinter He

18:40

Can identity and practices along

18:42

different of identity Marcus say

18:45

each seen the rise of

18:47

free sample health, fitness and

18:49

or environmental. He Can as

18:51

an alongside the perhaps more

18:53

historic identity mark of ethical

18:55

speaking isn't. What? The rise

18:57

of healthy eating as investors, environmental

19:00

deaconess and has allowed particularly. Corporate

19:02

friends to read a cast

19:04

lies on certain products sitting.

19:06

And delivering says different aspects whereas

19:09

some people see that as a

19:11

net positive intensive. encouraging people to

19:13

reduce the amount of animals that

19:15

they're using in their daddy practices

19:17

as is. Ah, worried that it's

19:20

diluting the ethical and radical potential

19:22

of the practice. Enough of the

19:24

identity of the innocent was there

19:26

are clearly massive shifts going on

19:28

in there is a practices if

19:30

he isn't. The also those kind

19:33

of cultural and economic politics is

19:35

wow, it's is still. In many

19:37

ways, small in relation to that

19:40

global livestock industry and impulse it

19:42

may cost you have these beacon

19:44

trends seemingly on the rise. Is

19:47

it actually displacing and replacing the

19:49

use of animals? Or is it

19:51

just adding to the. Eyes of

19:54

all of production. And consumption systems

19:56

that we already have. In

19:58

and analyzing the call. True,

20:00

unethical and economic. She's around

20:02

the vague and and plant based

20:04

trends. One. Of the height

20:07

of this research is to contribute

20:09

to constructive conversation across the food

20:11

industry on the future of our

20:13

food and what values we wanted

20:15

to be based on. Another outcome

20:18

of this silo in effect of

20:20

feeding isn't into these singular motivations

20:23

has been this general over simplification

20:25

of the north sits around what

20:27

the products can deliver. This is

20:30

started to create concern and debate

20:32

around where that some of the

20:35

products that are being launched under

20:37

those kind of he can impart

20:39

they labels. Might not

20:41

actually be as helpful

20:44

as certain animal based

20:46

products or particularly more

20:48

Whole Foods. Versions of

20:50

the feet and and plant

20:53

based items so liggins, pulses,

20:55

etc these higher processed products.

20:57

ah was driven big food

20:59

and big agriculture for decades

21:01

and city that the system's

21:04

uses a supply chains the

21:06

commodity markets that are already.

21:08

In existence, Big Food has seen

21:10

beacon isn't as a new market

21:12

opportunity to essentially is it their

21:14

existing systems into a new customer

21:17

base is asking that big a

21:19

question of what we want the

21:21

features of seat to look like

21:23

and he'd we wanted to involve

21:25

don't Sir Alex Sexton from the

21:27

University of Sheffield. And it's not

21:29

just a week and world that's been rough

21:31

fooled by. The grace of the

21:33

plant based trend. it's challenge

21:35

cultural narrative around eating meat

21:38

and prompted have to question

21:40

our values and ethics on

21:42

what we do. My conversation

21:44

with Rob Possible he's recent

21:46

book the Meat Paradox support

21:48

our complicated relationship with eating

21:50

animals. We discussed why the

21:52

accent choosing to reduce over made

21:54

meat and dairy from our diet

21:57

or not has become such a

21:59

polarizing. I think from

22:01

generations we've taken it for granted that

22:03

eating animals is normal, natural and necessary

22:06

and does. A host was caught a

22:08

narrative that's and wasn't around when we

22:10

say we give them a deadline and

22:12

quick death than basically it's and we're

22:14

realizing now and context of the climate

22:17

crisis that the quite radical change might

22:19

be needed. i've done it in the

22:21

period of you can movement is posed

22:23

a real challenge To to those three

22:25

ends, the idea that it is normal

22:28

naturally necessary to eat meat. And

22:30

giving them consumption the way to eat

22:32

the say deeply tied to identity This

22:34

has caused the Fairmount as thrive fighting

22:36

and ask what we're seeing in the

22:38

binary picture that's emerged with ah young

22:40

farmers and carnival within one side and

22:42

V Guns and animal activists on the

22:44

other a real splitting of the waters

22:46

and and will we have to do

22:48

is find a way through that to

22:50

earn a new dietary know I'm a

22:52

new more sustainable future in which actually

22:55

we do relate to animals and quite

22:57

different way a messy feed ourselves and

22:59

and quite county think farmers. And the

23:01

food industry have been reacting to the

23:03

increased interest and cussing bomb and will

23:05

put up consumption we've seen from within

23:07

the farming industry but still on his

23:09

tension. love concern around this, but there's

23:12

been a sort of coordinated come to

23:14

love each Trump's way people in actually

23:16

meters healthy, it can be environmentally benign

23:18

and so on. There's the campaign that

23:20

runs for January Now could Eat Balance

23:22

Mumbai, the industry which took the instructional

23:25

benefits of red meat and dairy the

23:27

became quite safe again. Binary in done

23:29

to to. The stick almost. we have

23:31

now very distinct and contradictory narrative that

23:33

a played out with the media across

23:35

the size he on the one hand

23:37

saying that they're murthy by british so

23:39

good to keep eating mean during the

23:41

other saying actually ninth best are only

23:43

solution is com base as a people

23:45

are confronted with kinda confusing environment in

23:47

which than our try to make.choices. That

23:50

show which he described. The politics

23:52

at this and any violation of

23:54

this sills culture war between farmers

23:56

and then parts of the begun

23:59

to mean. The Say something. Actually,

24:01

there is a big pragmatic middle ground

24:03

as a growing body of farmers who

24:05

recognize that they need to change the

24:08

way they farm response to climate nature

24:10

crises. There's a big segment of the

24:12

pump nice to meet and community. He

24:15

recognized the farmers and south an enemy.

24:17

This that the system that surround the

24:19

So that Nice persisted into politics. A

24:21

hugely challenging because farmers the moment I'm

24:24

seeing significant financial pressures, economic pressures just

24:26

seeing, and businesses their priority. the sort

24:28

of more progressive trails. The thoughts around:

24:30

So do we need some distance to the

24:33

climate crisis? How do we need to at

24:35

home and feature are at risk of being

24:37

buried under the more mediums Financial concerns. Save

24:39

the decisions that governments make. The next year's

24:41

going to be hugely influential in terms of

24:43

were farming in the Uk looks like and

24:46

a decade ahead. While. Pass it on.

24:48

Let us go through my social

24:50

media I often see the meat

24:53

eating that is vague in debates

24:55

playing out, especially in the comments

24:57

sections. And it can seem that

25:00

some of the loudest voices are pushing

25:02

more the black or white. all. Or

25:04

nothing uprights. It can be hard to

25:06

see where the middle ground conversation twenty

25:08

miles, but it. Does exist. Back

25:10

at Club Mexicana I was joined

25:13

by lean and norms a yeshiva

25:15

and put pasta. He's been really.

25:17

Honest about trying and failing

25:19

every day on her journey

25:22

towards putting out meat and

25:24

dairy completely. Hi I'm Nina

25:26

I talk lol means that about has to connect

25:28

maintaining ever be in a climate on the thanks

25:31

and because I don't think they're going anywhere, we

25:33

don't even start talking about an awkward Nfl. Same

25:35

for and isn't over it soon. but it can

25:37

also be a proper laugh and a lot of

25:40

fun. and I think that's why the fuck will

25:42

happen or not how we gonna get anywhere with

25:44

any of them. Have you identify. The way

25:46

that you know. Ah, I see what's

25:48

a T T V. I find some

25:50

other friends fine athletes and it's. Actually

25:52

made me think the night on my uninspiring

25:55

they don't reflect the variance. See made a

25:57

video about how actually the identifying of the

25:59

bad. In a quite interesting point of

26:01

view because instead of it being about your

26:04

behavior and how good you are something and

26:06

wipe your hundred percent your it's more about

26:08

your ethical values. So I would say that

26:10

I'm a bad began in the I one

26:12

hundred percent. I'm on board with all of

26:15

the research and all the information I read

26:17

on to been. I am just not announcing

26:19

that in all of my life right now

26:21

and I'm giving it very gradually to make

26:24

sure that permanent say you are upset see

26:26

that able to pull the journey that she

26:28

get to that point I mean. I'm getting

26:30

on for about eighty five ninety percent of

26:32

my life I've been eating meat and dairy

26:34

of with wild abandon. Loving it.

26:36

Evangelical about almost very exciting. One of

26:39

a pivotal moment for me with reading

26:41

a Could We Either Wet Weather by

26:43

Jonathan Safran Power he talks about in

26:45

his book the struggle with actually secret

26:48

eating meat, a consignment to distract. Ovaries

26:50

or law says a beautiful book about

26:53

a shame. Leading people and culture

26:55

and how emotional faith in the but

26:57

also how emotional. Changing

27:00

things together and how we think about tradition

27:02

and history. That

27:04

we can she passes hey institution and

27:06

change and I'd actually hawkins wondering tradition

27:08

is evolving and changing and say that

27:10

was part of I Slowly and twenty

27:12

twenty made the resolution to become vegetarian.

27:15

Aspire to see the in hindsight on

27:18

his ass again. Okay so exciting a

27:20

thing this I knew we could fall.

27:22

Fall began. Uri. And I gave people

27:25

tend of an option. The things they today who

27:27

has not been a taxi then which is why

27:29

you sat a big guy with a friend of

27:31

eat any to commit suicide, whole vegan diet or

27:33

time. why not create of the entire between? See

27:35

people the planet doesn't mind. If

27:38

my name. In. Punjab

27:40

said. I believe

27:42

me that you have any rely on really.

27:44

I'm going to this amazing ride a place

27:47

in I like it's it's a real solidity.

27:49

A big meal nebula? Yes! so join me

27:51

or somebody my. I cannot physically live without

27:53

my yoga. in the morning the other factors like

27:56

no worries on my own milk i'm rambling and

27:58

that kind of i hear that me nuts thing

28:00

instead of an individualistic, puritanical thing,

28:02

I think could get us a long way. That's one

28:04

of the suggestions. Everybody has such a complicated relationship with

28:07

food. I don't know anybody who doesn't have some kind

28:09

of weird feelings about it. Rather than it being like,

28:11

oh my god, I can't believe I failed because I

28:13

ate some cream cheese, I just think, how many of

28:16

these can I win? It really depends on what's helpful

28:18

for you, but I don't think that's the ever-winning answer,

28:20

I guess. Lena Norm's and

28:22

her approach to embracing some

28:24

of the difficulties and nuances

28:27

on her journey towards going 100% plant-based.

28:31

And if you have a story to share on

28:34

changing your diet in whatever way,

28:36

we would love to hear from you. Email

28:39

us at thefoodprogramme

28:41

at bbc.co.uk