0:00

I'm Akuri Estrlovski, and the host of

0:02

a new podcast from The Economist called

0:04

Next Year in Moscow. For

0:06

many Russians, Vladimir Putin's full scale innovation

0:09

of Ukraine. Also felt like an

0:11

attack on their own country's future. Hundreds

0:13

of thousands flat. I've

0:15

been talking to this new exiles. Because

0:18

their stories help bring to life the mystery

0:20

of why the senseless Illing and

0:22

how it might end. Next

0:24

year in Moscow from the economist is out now on

0:26

your pod a guest app, join me today and

0:29

start

0:29

listening. If I

0:31

told you that the way you grew up,

0:33

your family situation, your environment,

0:36

all of it had an enormous impact

0:38

on who you were today. You'd

0:40

probably say, well yeah,

0:43

obviously, You don't need a

0:45

psychology degree to connect those

0:47

dots. But what if I told

0:49

you that the way you grew up might

0:51

be the most significant influence on

0:54

your romantic relationships as

0:56

an adult. On

0:58

some level, this may not

1:00

be all that surprising either since

1:02

who we are as individuals determines

1:04

who we are as partners or

1:06

spouses. How could it not?

1:10

Still, even if the basic

1:12

idea here is clear enough. I'm

1:14

not sure most of us appreciate just

1:16

how much the past influences our

1:19

press the

1:22

reality is that so much of our personality,

1:25

how we what we expect from

1:27

other people, what we expect from

1:29

ourselves is shaped very

1:31

early by the people we love and rely

1:33

on the most. So

1:37

if you wanna understand why

1:39

you do what you do or why

1:41

you often don't do what you wish

1:43

you did, It helps to look

1:45

back at your life and find the roots

1:48

of these patterns. I'm

1:52

Sean and this is the

1:54

gray area. My

2:03

guest today is Vienna Ferron.

2:06

She's a couple therapists who's developed a

2:08

pretty large following on social media.

2:10

And she's just published her first book

2:12

called The Origins of You,

2:15

How Breaking Familypatterns can liberate

2:17

the way we live and love. This

2:19

book is an attempt to force us to

2:21

look closely at our own origin story,

2:24

to reflect on where we came from and

2:26

how those experiences color who

2:28

we are in our relationships today.

2:31

And she identifies several different

2:33

kinds of what she calls origin

2:36

wounds that shape our patterns

2:38

of behavior later in life.

2:42

Verint's book land it on my desk

2:44

at an interesting moment. For me, I'm

2:47

married and have a very young

2:49

son and like everyone else I'm

2:52

navigating all the challenges that

2:54

this entails. So

2:56

this conversation was an opportunity to

2:58

explore themes that are both personal

3:01

and universal. We're

3:04

all trying to be better partners. We're

3:07

all trying to understand ourselves.

3:09

And hopefully, we're all just trying

3:12

to do life better. Whatever that

3:14

means. But I started

3:16

the conversation by asking Vienna

3:18

to lay out her approach to therapy.

3:24

So my title is marriage

3:26

and family therapist. I work with

3:28

individuals, couples, and families. All

3:30

within the context of relationships and

3:33

really understanding the

3:36

origin, pain, and wounds that

3:38

we accrue in our childhood. So

3:40

the lens through which I see people and

3:42

relationships is through their family of

3:44

origin, the family system or systems

3:47

in which they grew up. To see that

3:49

there is a larger system at

3:51

play in every moment, right,

3:53

when we have unwanted patterns in

3:55

our adult lives We keep getting

3:57

into the same conflict with a partner or

4:00

a parent. We keep choosing emotionally unavailable

4:02

people to date or chronically unhappy

4:05

at every job that we hold. For

4:07

me, if we can't create a quick

4:10

change, right, if there's resistance there,

4:12

if there's friction there, then that's

4:14

a pretty good cater that there's something

4:16

unresolved from our past. And

4:18

the place that I like to go is our

4:21

family. I like to understand

4:23

the template. Right? That's our first education

4:26

on just about everything. You know,

4:28

we obviously get other people in

4:30

there at different points, teachers,

4:33

coaches, religion, etcetera. Like

4:35

all of these influences that start to shape our

4:37

belief systems, but our family system

4:39

is the first system where that education

4:42

is handed over to us. A lot of times when

4:44

people come in for individual therapy, it's

4:46

really easy to just stay focused

4:49

on that one person's experience,

4:51

you know, the story that they're sharing. Yeah. And

4:53

I try to always keep other

4:55

people in the room even when they're

4:57

not there physically. We all know

4:59

that we have complex histories. We have a

5:01

story that is rich. And when

5:04

we can keep that in mind, when

5:06

we're thinking about relational patterns

5:09

that are breaking down, that's

5:11

so helpful to remember that our partner

5:13

or our parent or our sibling has

5:16

a lot of context that's worth

5:18

understanding. Yeah. You know, I'm glad you said

5:20

that because I don't think anyone will be surprised

5:23

to hear that our childhoods, our

5:25

family dynamics growing up influences

5:29

how we behave as adults. But

5:31

why do you think it's worth really emphasizing,

5:34

not just how that impacts us as individuals,

5:37

but how it impacts our relationships

5:39

because maybe it's the relationships part

5:42

that is perhaps less understood

5:44

than the individual

5:45

parts. Yeah. Right. And I think you're right that a lot

5:47

of people can say like I can connect some of these

5:49

dots and that makes a lot of rational sense.

5:51

But I I'm a big believer

5:54

that the unresolved pain from

5:56

our past comes along with

5:58

us. Our pain is not out to destroy

6:00

our lives. Our pain is not out to

6:02

ruin us. Right? Our wounds are

6:04

tugging at us because they want attention

6:07

and they find these really clever ways. Right?

6:09

Like our internal system is brilliant

6:11

and super fascinating, the ways in which

6:13

it will bring us back into contact. With

6:16

pain that is unresolved. And

6:18

what we know to be true is that

6:20

relationships are the greatest

6:22

way for that pain to play

6:25

itself out over and over and over again.

6:27

So whether it's a romantic partnership, whether,

6:29

you know, the listeners who have children

6:31

who know our children are such great mirrors

6:34

for us and they bring us into contact with

6:36

a lot of that stuff. It's like relationships

6:39

are where so much of that plays out.

6:41

You have so many people who are like, okay,

6:43

I'm here to understand it,

6:45

but understanding only takes us

6:47

so far. There's only so much that we can

6:49

do as individuals thinking

6:52

about and, yeah, maybe processing

6:54

on our own as well, but I find

6:56

that if it's relationships that contributed

6:58

to our pain, then it's relationships need

7:00

to contribute to our healing as well.

7:03

And so, yeah, why we really need to

7:05

explore this through the context of relationships?

7:08

I'm curious, what is the first If there

7:10

is a first thing, you want to know about

7:12

someone's family history when they come you

7:14

with relationship problems.

7:17

There are many things I want to

7:19

know about. Probably one of the first

7:21

questions is, what did you want as a

7:23

child and not get?

7:24

That'll bring us right to it, you know, even

7:27

Illing like, oh, yeah. Is there like a little

7:29

bit of feeling sensation just

7:31

hearing that question right now?

7:34

You know, my parents, part of what got me

7:36

into this work, of course, is my own personal

7:38

story unsurprisingly for all

7:40

therapists. People are like, how did therapists

7:42

get into this work? It's like, We're figuring out how

7:44

to resolve our unresolved fate. Right?

7:47

My parents, they went through a nine year

7:49

divorce process. It was the

7:51

longest divorce at the

7:53

time for New Jersey. It

7:55

was intense. And there

7:57

was just a lot of high conflict.

8:00

There was a lot of psychological abuse

8:03

manipulation, gaslighting, paranoia,

8:05

emotional Illing. Like, it was not

8:08

an easy system to grow

8:10

up in and I'm an only child.

8:12

So as a tiny little human, I

8:14

was really there on my own and I

8:16

think my parents obviously what

8:18

they could and all of my main needs were

8:20

taken care of. But I took

8:22

on this role of seeing

8:25

the adults in my life crashing and burning

8:27

around me. I believed that

8:29

there wasn't room for me to not be okay

8:31

because my perception of them was that they were not

8:33

okay, that not only were they not okay, they

8:35

were drowning. And so I

8:37

started to fly under the radar. I

8:39

started to pretend like I was

8:41

fine. I was unaffected by things. I

8:43

didn't wanna add any type of stress

8:46

or burden to their already

8:48

full plates. And that

8:51

role, you know, I took on

8:53

and I kept it for decades I

8:56

wasn't until late in my

8:59

twenties. And it clicked

9:01

in at one moment in a conversation with a friend.

9:03

It's like, this needless little

9:05

girl who pretended like she was unaffected

9:07

by all of the things that were going on

9:09

in her life and in her family. Became

9:11

a needless woman who was presenting

9:14

as the quote unquote cool girl. Right?

9:16

This woman who yeah. Do whatever

9:18

you want. I'm totally fine. I'm totally unaffected. No

9:20

worries. was fully boundary less

9:22

and that role had come along with me

9:25

and I was maintaining this

9:27

position in my relationships. You

9:30

know, I couldn't speak up in romantic

9:32

partnerships. I couldn't speak up in friendships. I

9:34

just was pretending that

9:37

I was so un bothered and on affected

9:39

by things and it wasn't until that moment where

9:41

I could make a pivot and actually for

9:43

the first time say, I'm not okay.

9:46

I am affected by this. That

9:49

might sound so simple, but that was

9:51

a life changing moment for me to

9:53

let those words actually come out.

9:55

And I share that story because we

9:58

can sometimes see so clearly how

10:00

our past comes with us. But other

10:02

times it comes in such subtle ways,

10:05

right, whether we're recreating and repeating certain

10:07

patterns, or whether we're taking path of opposition,

10:09

where we don't even see what's going on.

10:12

And, you know, for me, it is so

10:14

important to not just

10:16

understand, but to do the processing work

10:19

in order to shift that and

10:21

find a new path forward. Well,

10:24

let me just first express some solidarity

10:26

with you as a fellow only child, also

10:28

from a broken home. I

10:30

can I can relate in some ways?

10:33

To that. Mhmm. I encountered that question

10:35

in your book, you know, what did you most need as

10:37

a kid and not good? And, boy,

10:40

that was a big

10:41

one. I thought about the answer to this,

10:43

and it's huge. Yeah.

10:46

It points us though to, you know, in

10:48

the book, I talk about five origin

10:51

wounds. And, you know, my

10:53

answer to that question led

10:55

me to an origin wound

10:58

that really needed my attention. I

11:01

wanted to know that it was okay

11:03

for me to not be

11:04

okay.

11:05

And that origin wound for you, that's the divorce.

11:08

Yeah. So in the beginning of the book, I share

11:10

a story. I was

11:12

in first grade, and that particular

11:15

weekend was supposed to be the three of us. And,

11:17

you know, my dad was watching a genki's game. My mom

11:19

wanted to go to the beach. He didn't wanna go.

11:21

And she invited my grandmother to

11:24

come along with us. And I'm

11:27

this little girl behind a closed

11:30

door in a bedroom and I

11:32

hear if you leave, don't come

11:34

back. And the next

11:36

thing I know is that my mom's barreling

11:38

upstairs, having me pack a bag,

11:40

and we're leaving. Yeah. And

11:43

there's a lot that happens after that. You

11:45

know, we don't go home. We go to my grandmother's

11:47

home. Police are involved. I'm hiding

11:49

in a closet, you know, instructed to

11:51

not make a sound, yeah, there's

11:53

this rupture that makes

11:56

me have to split my loyalty

11:59

like, how do I take care of mom and dad?

12:01

How do they both know that I love them?

12:03

And all of a sudden, I'm in this position where

12:06

I'm having to choose one over

12:08

the other. And so, you know, that was the

12:10

that was the catalyst. Right? That was the

12:13

the rupture that then led into the nine

12:15

year divorce process and all

12:17

of that contributes to the lack of

12:19

emotional safety, psychological safety as

12:22

well. So what what

12:24

drew me to your book is just

12:26

focus on

12:26

patterns, patterns of thought, patterns of

12:28

behavior, obviously, those things are related,

12:31

and how we get stuck. In them.

12:33

And one of the greatest

12:36

frustrations in my life

12:38

at the moment is this

12:41

feeling of being almost hostage

12:43

to extremely dumb impulses.

12:46

Mhmm. Like can

12:48

often see myself doing or

12:50

saying something in real time often with my

12:53

wife. Mhmm. I know it's stupid.

12:55

I know it's counterproductive. I know

12:58

it can only escalate a situation

13:01

and yet I plow ahead

13:03

anyway. Mhmm. And there's this nanding

13:05

feeling of knowing

13:07

what I should do and not

13:10

doing it. Maybe you'd call that self

13:12

sabotage. Maybe you'd call it

13:14

being a dumbass. I I don't know. Like,

13:16

those obviously aren't mutually exclusive. What

13:19

do you tell people when they experience some

13:22

version of

13:22

this? Like, when they just can't quite

13:25

overcome what they know are terrible impulses?

13:27

Yeah. So self sabotage,

13:30

I'd reframe it as something

13:33

that is self protective. What

13:35

does it serve? To do

13:38

the thing that you do even though

13:40

you know you ought not do it.

13:42

Like I said before, our systems are Illing. And

13:44

so we're constantly working

13:47

in a way to protect ourselves

13:49

from something. Now, unfortunately, a

13:52

lot of times that's an old operating system.

13:54

Right? It's protecting us from something that's unresolved,

13:57

unhealed, right, as opposed to

13:59

protecting us in the sense that it's

14:01

supporting and working

14:03

us towards our goals and our healing

14:06

and connection. I wonder if

14:08

you and I have some similarities. It

14:10

sounds like maybe You didn't get too specific

14:12

with that, but it makes me think about a story

14:14

when I was first dating my now

14:16

husband. We were in a conflict

14:19

no idea what the conflict was about, but

14:21

I remember acutely that

14:23

I could not stop proving my point.

14:25

And I just kept going. I

14:27

doubled down. I tripled down

14:29

and I was having this out of body experience

14:32

where it's like, Vienna. Shut

14:34

up. You know? It's just like, stop. Can

14:36

you take it back? You know, there was a lot of shame

14:38

and embarrassment there. I was like, I could see this

14:40

part of me that just like, needed to be

14:42

right, needed to prove my point, and

14:45

yet I couldn't stop myself from

14:47

it. And I realized

14:49

like, okay, what does point Illing

14:52

serve? Right? What does the need

14:54

to be right protect me from?

14:56

And I grew up with a

14:59

father who was really

15:01

manipulative. He gaslit

15:04

my mom and he

15:06

was really quick with his words. You know,

15:09

he was really, really good

15:11

at it. And as a tiny human,

15:14

I watched this and I saw the impact

15:16

that I had on my mother. It was it was

15:18

quite literally crazy making. And

15:20

so I started to understand that my need

15:23

to be right was my

15:25

way of protecting myself. That

15:27

being wrong was quite dangerous for

15:30

me. Right? That's what I had learned. Right? That

15:32

being wrong meant that I would be manipulated,

15:34

that I would be taken advantage of, Right?

15:36

And so being right was safety

15:38

for me. Proving my point was

15:40

the way in which I safeguarded myself

15:42

from the things from the past. That

15:45

was such an important revelation for me because

15:47

I needed to understand that,

15:49

okay, yes, as a little girl that made

15:52

a lot of sense. But if I kept

15:54

at this, right, if I didn't start to

15:56

pay attention to that unresolved pain

15:58

of what I saw growing up, then I would

16:00

continue to loop into that. And

16:02

I needed to find a way to

16:05

process and witness that and grieve the

16:07

pain from the past so that I

16:09

could make a new choice in

16:12

this current relationship. Right?

16:14

Because I did not have a partner who was

16:16

manipulative. I have a very honest

16:18

kind Illing open partner and

16:21

If I did not change that,

16:24

you run the risk of having relationships

16:26

end. Right? Like, that's the

16:28

consequence to all of this. Yeah.

16:31

Well, you know, I don't know where it comes

16:33

from with me. Maybe this will maybe

16:36

this will come out in the context of

16:38

this conversation. Mhmm. For me,

16:40

it really does feel like this impulse to behave

16:42

in ways I know are unhealthy. It's so strong

16:45

that it can feel like almost a

16:47

nervous system sort of thing. Mhmm. And don't wanna

16:49

accept that because I don't wanna rob myself of agents

16:52

to do otherwise. Mhmm.

16:54

But it really does feel like that sometimes. And I

16:56

don't know if part of it is knee

16:58

almost thriving on conflict. Right?

17:00

We're like, I'm choosing I'm choosing conflict

17:02

because that almost feels more familiar and safe than

17:04

actually just choosing to interpret a

17:06

situation. Differently that would push

17:08

in the opposite direction? Absolutely.

17:10

Right. I mean, I think we go in the

17:12

direction of familiarity. But I

17:14

like, where does it lead you? When

17:17

you engage in whatever the destructive

17:19

behavior is, where do you get

17:22

to? With

17:23

acting that way. Mhmm. Escalation.

17:25

Mhmm. Conflict. And

17:27

then how do you feel when

17:30

you're in that escalation and conflict?

17:35

In a almost perverse way, I feel almost

17:37

more comfortable because I'm very much

17:39

bad ease when my guard is up. Mhmm. Like, I'm

17:41

very comfortable fighting I'm very

17:43

comfortable Illing. I'm very comfortable

17:47

attacking and deflecting. Mhmm. It's almost safer

17:49

space than being vulnerable.

17:51

Right? And so I just naturally retreat to

17:53

that. Yeah. Right. So, okay. One,

17:56

where did you learn that from? Two,

17:58

what does that protect you

18:00

from? Three, what story

18:02

does that wind up ultimately supporting

18:05

for

18:05

you? You

18:08

know what? The story it ultimately

18:10

ends up supporting is that everything is

18:12

fucked. Mhmm. And what I mean by that?

18:14

Right? Look, if if I was on your therapist couch and

18:16

I kinda am right now, then you

18:18

ask me, what's the one habit or the one part

18:20

of my personality that I most want to change?

18:23

What I would tell you is that I'm

18:25

a catastrophizer very often.

18:27

And this is something that I'm

18:30

how should I put this? It's not great for

18:32

me or my relationships. Right?

18:34

And for anyone unfamiliar with that term, like,

18:36

what I mean is there is this instinct to

18:38

almost pre

18:41

prepare for disaster, but not just imagining

18:43

all the way something could go wrong, but

18:46

actually the conjuring reasons

18:48

to blow it up before it goes

18:50

wrong. Mhmm. And so anytime

18:52

I sniff conflict, I just my mind will immediately

18:54

go to yeah. Of course. Right? Because things

18:56

are messed up and we're broken. And, of course, this just

18:59

validation of all of that, and it it it becomes

19:01

self

19:01

fulfilling. Yeah. And it's totally delusional

19:04

often. Well,

19:04

but you're describing a hyper vigilance. Right?

19:07

What does that mean? That sounds right. Like the

19:09

part of you that's constantly scanning and

19:11

pre preparing for something

19:13

to go wrong. Yeah. And the inquiry

19:15

would be What's familiar about

19:18

that? When did you have to prepare?

19:20

And why did you need to look out for

19:22

things going wrong? Why did

19:24

you need to look out for things going

19:27

south. It's not to put you on the spot,

19:29

but I imagine that there is some

19:31

history in your life where

19:34

you learned that there's

19:36

a need for hyper vigilance.

19:39

And I think fear probably has a lot to do

19:41

with it. Fear of what exactly I

19:43

can't say and maybe you would call it a safety

19:45

wound that stems from my

19:48

being an only child from a broken

19:50

home with very young parents

19:52

who were trying to figure out how to be parents

19:54

before they were probably ready --

19:56

Mhmm. -- to be parents.

19:58

And so part of it feels very much

20:00

like defense mechanism. Certainly.

20:03

To have young parents who

20:05

are figuring it out often creates

20:07

an environment where a child

20:10

has to do some figuring out themselves. I

20:12

don't know if that resonates for you, but

20:14

they don't necessarily know what

20:16

to be thinking of next or

20:19

because there's an immaturity that

20:21

might have been there, then you have

20:23

to become the observer, the

20:25

hyper vigilant one or just vigilant

20:27

one to say, well, hey, my needs

20:29

over here, hey, we've got to look out for this or hey,

20:31

what about that if they're not

20:33

as attuned or aware, which can

20:35

happen when we have adults

20:38

stepping into a role that maybe is slightly

20:40

premature for them. It reminds

20:42

me of this one story that I share in the book about

20:45

Natasha and she's coming into therapy and she's

20:47

trying to figure out whether or not she should stay in the

20:49

relationship with Clyde, who is this wonderful

20:51

man, but she keeps thinking that the other

20:53

shoe is going to drop and she doesn't know why.

20:55

And at first, she doesn't want talk about her

20:57

family past at all. She's like, no. Like,

20:59

I'm here to figure out if I should stay with him

21:01

or not or about to get engaged and I need

21:04

this answer. And a little bit into

21:06

our therapy, I learned that when

21:08

she was a teenager, she stumbled upon

21:10

an eval that was open on her father's

21:12

computer and it was between her father

21:14

and a woman who wasn't her mother. He walks

21:16

in on her he sees her Illing. He

21:19

says, please don't tell your mother or sister. I promise

21:21

I'll cut it off. And she holds that

21:23

secret for him. Forever. It

21:25

was the first time that she had spoken that out loud

21:28

to anyone. Right? Was to me in that

21:30

session decades later. She had absorbed

21:32

it in such a way and then had to

21:34

go on pretending like nothing had ever

21:36

happened, which makes sense as to why she said that, you know,

21:38

I have a great family and great great childhood.

21:41

That it didn't strike her, that the other

21:43

shoe dropping came from this

21:45

origin story, and

21:47

she was going through life in her romantic

21:50

relationships waiting for the other shoe to drop,

21:52

exiting those relationships early

21:54

for really no reason, but just

21:56

because of the anticipation of something

21:59

could go wrong, you cannot trust people

22:01

even if they present like they are phenomenal

22:03

humans. Right? And that was

22:05

such an opener for us because it brought us

22:07

to the part of her that

22:10

needed to process the origin

22:12

pain that needed to witness

22:14

this teenager who was asked to hold

22:16

a secret, who did, and what that

22:19

did to her, and then to grieve

22:21

the emotions that were there. So that

22:23

she could then choose to

22:26

be committed and move forward with

22:28

a partner who was actually a great

22:31

fit and really aligned for her. And

22:33

so you can see how sometimes when

22:35

we don't have that awareness, the

22:37

past unresolved or

22:39

untouched pain can

22:41

create and maintain these behaviors

22:44

and these patterns. And so for you or

22:46

for anybody who's listening who resonates

22:48

with this. Right? Like, that's the inquiry.

22:51

Well, I'm glad you brought up that story. It's

22:53

about trust, you know, a lack of trust. And -- Mhmm.

22:55

-- and that's a very common

22:57

problem. In relationships, and it's

22:59

easy to understand in certain situations like

23:02

infidelity or

23:02

something. That's an obvious breach of

23:05

trust. That's very hard to get back. But

23:08

I think a lack of trust often shows up in

23:10

much quieter, deeper ways -- Mhmm. -- for

23:12

lot of us, and that is harder to diagnose, but

23:15

every bit is consequential. That's right. Like

23:17

for example, like like maybe, you know, we don't

23:19

open ourselves up to someone because

23:21

we're worried about being judged or even more

23:23

insidious. We assume the worst

23:26

intentions from our partner

23:28

for perhaps lots of reasons that have nothing to

23:30

do with them, that predate them. Mhmm. But seeing

23:32

someone through that filter suspicion is

23:34

such a poison pill for a relationship.

23:36

And it does kind of boil down to trust. And

23:39

I guess, you know, if you dig

23:41

deep enough into the source of all of that,

23:43

you end up landing in childhood.

23:45

Mhmm. Not always, but I suspect

23:48

often. Yeah. Right. Not always. And

23:50

of course, I I recognize that not every

23:52

wound of ours gets created in childhood.

23:55

It's just the framework that I use. When

23:57

I'm doing my work. But, yeah, the

23:59

breach of trust is so brutal because

24:01

we all know that it's so hard to work our

24:03

way back from it. And you're right. We have

24:05

the big ones, right, the obvious ones, and infidelity,

24:08

somebody gambling away your

24:11

education fund or something like that.

24:13

But then we also have the things like

24:15

parents who make promises that

24:17

they don't follow through on, and it

24:19

might feel small. But that's

24:22

something that starts to teach a child

24:24

whether or not they can trust another

24:26

person to follow through on what they're

24:29

saying. I think when it's our parents

24:31

or the adults who are in our parental roles,

24:34

who teach us that we are

24:36

not worthy who communicate to us

24:38

that we are not a priority or that you

24:40

can't trust other people or that you're not safe

24:42

in the world. It's a really hard thing

24:45

to come back from because as

24:47

kids, we look to our parents, to the adults

24:49

as truth. We don't have

24:52

the capacity to process

24:54

properly. Right? If I'm not worthy

24:56

in the eyes of my parent, then there's no

24:59

way that I'm worthy in the eyes of anybody else.

25:01

If I can't trust the people who are supposed to

25:03

love me, protect me, nurture

25:05

me, guide me, then what do you mean I'm supposed

25:07

to trust other people? That's a real

25:09

conundrum for a lot of folks.

25:21

How do you draw the line between self

25:23

love and self intelligence? I'll

25:26

ask Vienna after a short break.

25:41

Al Bruno ran the mob in Springfield,

25:44

Massachusetts. Us going up a

25:46

tying in and you wanna be a criminal, Bruno

25:48

was the guy that we looked up to he

25:51

was gunned down in two thousand

25:53

three. Now Bruno just took

25:55

about eight to the body at the Italian club

25:57

on one third Street. I'm like, oh, Jesus.

26:00

Bruno's murder was a mystery. But

26:02

also an opportunity. It

26:04

was law enforcement's best shot at taking

26:06

down the Springfield mafia. Once

26:10

and for all. I'm

26:13

Ellie Illing, host of up against

26:15

the mob, the Springfield crew.

26:18

As a federal prosecutor, I took down

26:20

over one hundred mobsters, but

26:22

nothing was as wild as what went down

26:24

in Springfield. Call 911.

26:28

I've been shot. To solve the case,

26:30

we'd have to convince made men to break

26:32

their code of silence.

26:34

You can't put your hands on them or you get Illing.

26:36

And as the dominoes started to fall,

26:39

all

26:39

of us just looked at each other like this case is

26:41

Illing up. Up against

26:43

the mob, the Springfield crew.

26:45

From Cafe and the Voxmedia podcast

26:48

network, following your listening app

26:50

to hear new episodes every Wednesday.

27:03

Unexplainable's got a new three part

27:05

series called Origins. It's

27:07

all about the beginnings and boundaries

27:10

of life on Earth. Every

27:12

marvelous living creature on our earth

27:15

is built of complex living cells,

27:17

life, is made up of atoms

27:20

and molecules and chemical reactions,

27:23

but what makes them alive? Where

27:25

did Earth's water come How

27:28

did life actually start? And,

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I don't know, just what is life?

27:33

Origins from unexplainable, starting

27:35

March first. Follow

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Unexplainable for new episodes every

27:39

Wednesday.

27:52

You know, I'll be honest.

27:54

Like, one of the things I've always found

27:56

sort of off putting about the

27:59

world of wellness literature

28:02

is a kind of obsession

28:04

with self care and self fulfillment. Taken

28:07

too far, I do think that can become self

28:09

indulgent when often. I think what really

28:11

need in order to be happy is to be less self

28:13

involved. But think

28:16

you you make a pretty compelling case that

28:18

the absence of self love

28:21

manifest in some pretty toxic

28:24

ways in our relationships. And

28:26

maybe you could just say a bit about that.

28:29

Yeah. I mean, I think the absence of self

28:31

love really intersects

28:34

with these wounds. When you don't

28:36

feel deserving or

28:39

good enough that there were conditions for

28:41

love. Right? I needed to perform, be perfect,

28:44

be a people, please, or be the comic Illing. Whatever

28:46

it is in order to get connection, attention,

28:48

love, presence, etcetera. Right?

28:51

And maybe I should just name worthiness, belonging,

28:53

prioritization, trust and safety

28:55

are the five ones that I go over. What

28:57

we'll see is that those things strip

29:00

away at our confidence. They

29:02

strip away at the self This

29:04

belief that I belong as

29:06

I am. So with the belonging wound, a

29:08

lot of times families have this narrative, like, This

29:11

is what it looks like to be

29:13

a part of this family. This is what we believe.

29:16

This is what we do. This is how we

29:18

show up in the world. And some of that is

29:20

beautiful. Right? The traditions that we have with family

29:22

that might be lovely, but other parts of

29:24

that are where we're asked to trade our authenticity

29:27

for attachment. Dr. Gabor Marte talks

29:29

about that being our two lifelines attachment

29:32

and authenticity. But when

29:34

attachment is threatened, a

29:36

child will trade authenticity

29:38

in an instant in order

29:40

to survive. Yep. And

29:42

so we start to see how all of these

29:45

things strip away from

29:47

our capacity to hold ourselves

29:50

in high regard or even just

29:53

regard to pick ourselves

29:55

up and believe that we are deserving

29:58

of. To believe that we can just be

30:00

ourselves and that that is enough. To believe

30:02

that we are important in the world. To believe

30:04

that there are people in this world who we

30:06

can trust or to believe that

30:08

there is care and concern for our

30:10

overall well-being. And

30:12

so, self love to me is

30:14

not you know, sure you wanna throw in

30:16

some bubble bath and, yeah, those are

30:19

great things for us from time to time. But I talk

30:21

about self love as the

30:23

intersection of grace

30:25

and compassion for the self

30:27

as well as accountability and

30:29

ownership. And we

30:31

have to see ourselves as part

30:33

of the human experience, but

30:36

we also need to take accountability and

30:38

ownership. And when we don't

30:40

do that, we're stuck. The

30:42

self critic is totally

30:44

turned up, right, that inner voice that

30:47

just has a lot to say about who

30:49

we are and what we're doing and doesn't

30:51

seem to have any problems letting us know.

30:53

And so, like, we stay stuck in that

30:55

space instead of moving

30:58

to a place of

30:59

agency, I think you said before. Yeah.

31:02

Yeah. The question of authenticity

31:04

about how it's children we often trade are

31:07

authenticity. For attachment. Mhmm.

31:09

We start contorting ourselves

31:11

very early. I certainly did for

31:13

way longer than I should have. For other

31:15

people because that is the straightest

31:18

line to acceptance.

31:20

Mhmm. But that strategy does

31:23

not work in the long run. And I

31:25

think you're right that it becomes a problem in our

31:27

relationships. Right? I mean, there are there

31:29

are many different versions of this. I I have my

31:31

own to not make this all

31:33

about me. There's a case in the book.

31:36

It's the gay man from West Virginia who

31:38

is closeted for years and he

31:40

moved to New York City. And

31:42

finds himself in a relationship with someone who's

31:45

wrapped up in a party you've seen and he's like

31:47

playing along, but it's not really what he wants.

31:49

He wants a quieter life, but he's stopped

31:52

performing this role because

31:54

he thinks he has to in order to be accepted

31:56

by his partner and probably by his social

31:59

circle but no one can

32:01

maintain that kind of pose forever. Right? Like,

32:03

we gotta be who we are for the people

32:05

we love, or they won't be able to love us, and

32:07

we won't be able to love ourselves.

32:09

Yeah. That's right. All of this stuff

32:11

is the band aid. It can take us

32:14

to a certain point. We can fake it.

32:16

Okay. I'll be perfect. And I can

32:18

fake it for a little bit. Or yeah, I'll trade

32:20

authenticity and do what I need to do to

32:22

fit in. Okay? We can fake it for little bit.

32:24

And it might give us outcome that we want. Maybe

32:26

people give us validation or they might give us

32:28

attention or they might want to spend time with us,

32:30

but it ends. We cannot

32:32

keep that up forever. And

32:34

that's why I say it's so important for

32:37

us to go into the origin pain.

32:39

So for the the man you're describing, he

32:42

needed to spend time witnessing

32:44

the pain about his family

32:47

rejecting him. There were

32:49

constraints there. His sexuality

32:52

was something that they

32:54

could not really comprehend from

32:56

the south very religious family. And

32:58

so there were a lot of constraints there, and he overheard

33:01

his mom after he had come out to

33:03

say, like, why is he ruining my life? You know,

33:05

those like daggers that really

33:08

really hurt him and tore him apart. And

33:10

when we just scurry by

33:12

that. Right? When we just brute force our

33:14

way through, when we white knuckle it, we're

33:16

just like, okay, I'm just gonna keep on going and not

33:19

try to tend to the pain. What winds up happening

33:21

is we maintain that I'm not worthy, that

33:23

I'm not lovable, that I'm not a priority, that

33:25

I do not fit in. That I don't belong,

33:27

that I'm not safe, that there is nobody to trust

33:29

in the world. Those things just keep

33:32

circulating and, you know, maintaining

33:34

the pain. It was so important

33:37

for people to come back into

33:39

contact

33:40

with the original pain that

33:42

set all of these patterns in motion.

33:48

We're both parents. Mhmm. And

33:50

having a kid is such a transformative

33:53

event in the life of a couple.

33:56

Everyone more or less understands that, but

33:58

do you think we still underestimate just how

34:00

much becoming a parent

34:03

changes our relationships. Howard Bauchner:

34:05

Yeah, probably. I mean, I think you're right.

34:07

In theory, we're like, of course, it does.

34:09

But until you're in it, you

34:11

know, we don't necessarily understand

34:14

the strain that it has

34:16

on you. Obviously, we know that there are

34:18

such beautiful parts to it. Such

34:20

expansive parts, and there's also really

34:22

hard stuff that presents itself.

34:25

And yeah, I think we probably

34:27

do underestimate Listen, I'm and

34:29

I know you too, we're still in the early

34:31

part of parenthood. I

34:34

can tell how easy it

34:36

is for resentment to

34:39

present very early on when

34:41

you step into parenthood. Right?

34:43

And I don't know if you experience that

34:46

too, but I think my husband

34:48

and I, we have such a great team

34:50

and that was still there. That

34:53

piece of are we doing things

34:55

equally and who's contributing what

34:58

and how quick it

35:01

is for resentment to start

35:03

to creep in and the

35:05

expectations, you know, when we're

35:07

doing this type of healing work too,

35:10

seeing yourself as parent and

35:12

what that brings forward for you

35:14

in terms of your relationship with your own

35:17

or, you know, thinking back to when you were tiny

35:19

human and how you want to offer

35:21

a very different experience for them

35:24

or a similar experience, right, if you had a really

35:26

great one. There's so many layers that

35:28

start to reveal themselves

35:30

and until you're in the thick of

35:32

it, I think it's hard to fully

35:35

know what's gonna show up there. Yeah.

35:37

I think it really is true on some level that every

35:40

couple is a story

35:42

that they sort of believe together.

35:45

And that story changes. It has

35:47

to change. And it certainly changes when

35:49

you become parents. You know? And I,

35:51

again, I can only speak from personal experience,

35:53

but what has happened for us

35:56

is there's this kind of gradual

35:58

evolution from being

36:01

friends who sort of share life together.

36:03

Mhmm. And if you're not very careful, what

36:05

you find yourself becoming is less

36:08

that and more co

36:10

managers -- Mhmm. -- of a

36:12

household. And all

36:15

your energy and all your bandwidth

36:17

and all your patience gets

36:19

used up on this child, you know, especially

36:21

when when they're really young. You know, again, we have

36:23

a three and a half year old. And that

36:25

means there's nothing left for each

36:28

other. And so you become

36:31

more reactive and more irritable

36:34

and you start dumping some of those

36:36

frustrations onto each other because there's nowhere us

36:38

for it to go. And that has been

36:40

one of the hardest things to reckon

36:43

with and and try to transcend

36:45

and there are good days and there are bad

36:47

days. But The bad days are

36:49

hard. They're hard. And I

36:51

think it's interesting too because depending

36:53

on what type of wounds

36:56

you might have, there's certain things that

36:58

might activate us even more.

37:00

So for example, if you're parent

37:02

who has a prioritization wound,

37:04

meaning you didn't feel important

37:07

growing up. Maybe you had a parent

37:09

who was a workaholic or Maybe there were mental

37:11

health challenges in the family system that took up

37:13

the space or addiction that took up the space.

37:16

If that's the wound and then you have

37:18

this third party come into

37:20

the equation. And then all of a sudden,

37:23

the other partner is spending a lot of

37:25

time with that third party baby.

37:27

And all of that love and connection

37:29

is going there. All of a sudden, even

37:32

though we can rationalize it and say, of course,

37:34

it's a baby, this is what we do, yada

37:36

yada yada, it doesn't mean that the wound isn't

37:38

getting activated. Right? All of a sudden,

37:40

I am deprioritized now. Yeah.

37:43

Or if we have a worthiness wound, and

37:45

so unless I am showing up, as

37:47

a perfect parent because that's what I

37:49

learned that in order to be loved,

37:52

I I needed to be perfect. And

37:54

now here I am in this new role where

37:56

oh my gosh, I have no idea what I'm doing.

37:58

I feel nervous. I'm a little scared. I'm not sure

38:00

I trust myself. All the things. Right? Then

38:03

it activates that piece. And so

38:05

obviously every parent's journey is

38:07

different. Right? And the things that activate

38:09

us within that space. And I'm not just saying

38:11

in relation to the child, within the

38:13

couple ship two, you'll start

38:16

to see, like, what are the things

38:18

that make me most reactive here?

38:20

Our reactivity when we have strong

38:22

reactions, it's a neon sign that directs

38:24

us back to our wounds. I'm

38:27

pissed and I'm not getting time with my partner.

38:29

I feel like you're prioritizing our child

38:31

over me. Just noticing what's

38:34

showing up is gonna remind us

38:36

and tell us where we need to go

38:38

spend more time.

38:40

The worthiness wound prompted a bit

38:42

of tough reflection. Mhmm. You know,

38:44

again, I was only child.

38:46

There weren't any siblings around, and I think part

38:48

of the way I responded to that was

38:51

this feeling of not quite having a tribe.

38:53

Mhmm. Know, and having parents who are young

38:55

and not always available. And so

38:57

I think the way I that ended

38:59

up manifesting for me is became very sort

39:02

of

39:02

chameleonic. You know what I mean? Like -- Mhmm. -- became

39:04

very good at trying to fit in.

39:06

Shape shifting? Yeah. There's many different

39:08

people as I could in order to I don't know,

39:11

get validation or just feel like I

39:13

was part of a tribe and --

39:15

Yeah. -- you do that long enough and eventually

39:17

you realize I never really actually

39:19

settled my identity. I just kept

39:21

playing with new ones in order to

39:23

fit with the circumstances in which I

39:26

found

39:26

myself. Mhmm. That was a big revelation

39:28

for me. And I think when you start

39:31

your own family for the first time

39:33

Oh, yeah. Do I belong here?

39:35

Can I be a part of something

39:38

here? Even when it's partnership? Right?

39:40

There's that and then you bring somebody else into the mix

39:43

and you're like, wow, okay, what

39:45

I had and you've got the same equation

39:47

now. Right now, your child

39:49

is an only child. And to

39:51

think about what that reflects back to you and

39:53

what am I creating, but also can I make

39:55

space to feel a part of something here

39:58

as well? Can I receive

39:59

that? Right? Or am I finding

40:01

ways to block that?

40:04

So if you were someone who

40:06

is finding themselves stuck

40:08

in some of these patterns

40:10

of reactivity and you want

40:12

to disrupt that pattern.

40:15

Is there any other

40:18

concrete advice you can give

40:20

people a practice or a tool

40:22

that they can draw on -- Mhmm. -- when they find

40:24

themselves. Slipping into

40:26

another one of these patterns and just kind of

40:29

doing same dance over and over again. Mhmm.

40:32

Yeah. I love the question and

40:34

I think I said it earlier. What

40:37

does this pattern serve? You

40:40

mean literally like like pausing and kind of posing

40:42

the question to yourself? Yeah.

40:44

And you might not be able to do it in the moment.

40:46

I think a lot of times when we're hot, there's

40:48

not a lot of cooling down that can happen

40:51

right away. So in a moment

40:53

of reflection, whether that's a few

40:55

hours later, the next day, the next week,

40:57

or right now, before something even happens,

40:59

right, to notice, like, what are the things

41:01

that make me the most reactive? What

41:04

do the patterns in my life? The things that I

41:06

want to change? What does this

41:08

serve? Now, we're gonna

41:11

say it doesn't serve anything. All it does

41:13

is cause problems, All it does

41:15

is cause disconnection. All it

41:17

does is cause dysfunction in my relationships.

41:20

But it still serves something.

41:23

And my example that I shared

41:25

before was it served

41:28

my need to protect myself. It

41:30

served my need that being

41:32

right meant that I was safe.

41:35

And so whatever it is that you're doing,

41:37

that you can't stand, that you're trying to

41:39

change, it's doing something

41:42

that your system thinks is for

41:44

you. Does that make sense?

41:45

It does. Yeah. One thing I

41:47

started doing and you get down to me if this is stupid.

41:50

And I'm working on this, but I kind of came to

41:52

the conclusion, alright, look, I

41:55

can't quite break these patterns

41:57

in the sense of I can't quite do exactly

41:59

what I want to do, what I know should do. Mhmm.

42:02

So until or unless I can

42:04

do that, what I will do is as soon as

42:06

I can observe that, okay, we're on the Illing.

42:09

Of an interaction going sideways

42:11

here and I'm up in my head about

42:13

it. Mhmm. I just said, you know what?

42:15

I'm just gonna I'm just gonna walk away. What

42:18

I'm not gonna do is escalate.

42:21

Right? I can't quite resolve this. But

42:23

I'm gonna I'm gonna just put a bow on

42:25

this whole exchange, walk away, then

42:28

we could circle back later. But I can

42:30

see that if I'm gonna keep participating in

42:33

what's happening

42:33

here, I'm gonna do it in a way that's gonna make

42:35

this worse, not better.

42:36

Mhmm. So I'm just gonna that's it.

42:38

I'm gonna end it. Is that Obviously,

42:42

it's not a solution to any of these fundamental

42:43

problems, but is it It's

42:45

a pause.

42:46

I mean, is that better than just continuing

42:48

along with the with the pattern? Well, remember

42:51

earlier on in this chat, we talked about

42:53

that it's not just about us, it's

42:55

about the other person that is

42:57

in the equation with us, right, that

42:59

they also have a history, that they also

43:02

have wounds. And so, yes,

43:04

Individually, this is a pause. And

43:07

probably a pretty good one. You know that

43:09

it's gonna escalate? That never ends well,

43:11

and so I'd rather not escalate. But

43:13

what we're missing is whether or not you

43:15

stepping away activates something in

43:17

the other person. And if we don't talk

43:19

about that, right, if there isn't an agreement

43:22

then that's something that can cause a different

43:24

type of rupture. So for example, if

43:26

the other person has an

43:28

abandonment wound, or they

43:31

feel like you stepping away doesn't

43:34

honor their emotional safety,

43:36

for example, or they

43:39

feel deprioritized when you say,

43:41

I'm out of here, I'm not gonna keep having this conversation,

43:43

and all of a sudden that activates a prioritization

43:46

wound. Right? Like, that's what's so

43:48

important and that's so relationship

43:50

specific. It's to say what's

43:53

gonna work for the two of you.

43:55

Right? And how do you co create that

43:57

with the idea and understanding of what's

43:59

at play so that we can tend

44:02

to and, like, care for the

44:04

other person's experience while also caring

44:06

for our own. So, yeah, it sounds

44:08

like it's a good pause for you. But

44:11

I would get curious about whether

44:13

it's a good pause for the other person too.

44:15

Probably not.

44:20

I'm working on it.

44:29

We've got to take one last quick break,

44:32

but when we come back, Vienna

44:34

has seen a lot of couples So

44:37

what do people regret the most when they

44:39

look back on their relationships?

44:54

The

44:54

day after Russia invaded Ukraine, I talked

44:56

down a shaky phone line to a Ukrainian man

44:59

named Curiy Vasil. And

45:01

where are you now, mister Vasyl? In

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in the town of Laveave

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in Ukraine. Now one

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year later, I called him back. Him

45:15

and his niece who translated. Correvasio,

45:18

how are you? Hello. Everything

45:26

is fine. We are alive. And

45:28

every day in the morning when we wake

45:30

up and we see each

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other, we say hello. And

45:34

when we are safe and

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sound, we happy. Although they

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aren't always safe, I'm Noel King

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cohost of today explained, and

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we're looking at one year of Vladimir Putin's

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war. And every weekday afternoon, THE

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NEW STORIES WE ALL MOST NEED

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EXPLAINT.

46:04

You cancel a lot of couples? Yes. Some

46:06

of them figure out and stay together. Some

46:09

of them don't. Mhmm. In your experience,

46:11

would you find that people

46:14

regret the most when they

46:16

reflect back on their relationships.

46:20

Probably that they don't come to it sooner.

46:22

You know, like, that the that they don't come to the

46:24

awareness as

46:25

sooner. That

46:26

they don't start working on the problem sooner, you mean?

46:28

Yeah. And I because I think what's important

46:30

is that we're not so hard

46:32

and difficult on ourselves. Like, a lot of times, people

46:34

Illing come in and they're like, I know. I'm starting

46:37

way late and it's like, no. Like, you're you

46:39

know, we're stepping into something when

46:41

we're ready for it. Yeah. And think

46:43

it's important again to have that grace

46:45

and compassion for ourselves instead of oh,

46:48

my life or my relationships could have been

46:50

so different ten years ago and it's like, sure,

46:52

you know, that that could have been true, but

46:54

here we are. You know, that doesn't really serve anything

46:57

for us to just think that way and

46:59

blame ourselves. But I think that's one

47:01

of the things that people struggle with

47:03

is, oh, I wish

47:05

that I had been readier to

47:08

confront this sooner because

47:11

the beauty of this work is that we

47:13

gain internal peace. It changes

47:15

our relationships and the quality of our relationships.

47:17

Certainly, but there is a beautiful internal

47:20

piece that happens when we do

47:22

this work. When people get a taste

47:24

of that and they're like, I don't

47:26

have to be in suffering all the

47:28

time. I understand why

47:31

that regret can pop up.

47:33

Every now and then,

47:36

usually after some kind of stupid

47:38

fight, I'll imagine

47:42

how would I feel if my

47:45

wife left right now? Right? We got in

47:47

this fight and she just got in the car

47:49

and left. And

47:52

something tragic happened. Mhmm. You

47:54

know, like a car accident or something.

47:56

I mean, my my mother passed away, talked and

47:59

years ago from a a car accident very suddenly, so

48:01

that's still very much on my mind. That

48:03

possibility -- Mhmm. -- and

48:05

I'm not trying to be dark here or too heavy.

48:08

I'm really not. I guess I'm trying to make

48:10

a point, you know, like, if that were

48:12

to happen, what I know.

48:14

Absolutely. What I know more than anything I've ever known

48:16

in my whole life is that I would never

48:18

forgive myself for having wasted

48:21

the time we had on such

48:24

ridiculous, trivial nonsense.

48:26

That will appear so trivial

48:28

and ridiculous, less than twenty four

48:30

hours later.

48:32

Yeah. But the trivial stuff

48:34

is connected to our pain.

48:36

Right. We don't do

48:39

stupid shit just because it's

48:41

fun. You know, we don't fight about the

48:43

toothpaste cap and the you know, just

48:46

the stupid, you know, examples that we've had

48:48

for so long. Right? It's like no one's doing

48:50

that because we actually care about

48:52

that. It's never about that. Right? The thing you're fighting about is almost

48:54

never the thing you're fighting about.

48:56

Right? So this trivial surface

48:58

level stuff is connected

49:01

to legitimate pain

49:04

that we carry. You know, I've

49:06

worked over twenty thousand hours,

49:08

individuals, couples, families, and therapy. And

49:11

this is what I have seen over and over

49:13

and over again. My personal life, my professional

49:15

life, it points us to these wounds.

49:18

And when we can tend to those wounds, then

49:20

we can begin to create those

49:22

changes. You know, you said something before

49:24

about the that you would

49:26

like to see. This is what I wanted

49:29

to look like, and I think there's an inquiry

49:31

there about what would

49:33

you need to believe in

49:36

order for that to happen? No.

49:38

What do you need to believe

49:40

about yourself in order for

49:43

that to actually

49:44

happen? There's so much

49:46

that can birth from that place.

49:49

So if someone's listening to this or they they read

49:51

your book and discover for themselves.

49:53

Yeah. Okay. I've got a worthiness one or I have a safety

49:56

one or whatever the deal is. Right? They they start

49:58

with a problem they're having and they can trace it back

50:00

to their history. What

50:03

do they do next? What's the next move?

50:05

Concretely. Right? Like, okay, you have this knowledge.

50:07

Right? But knowing and doing or not the same

50:09

thing. That's right. So what's the next move?

50:11

So I walk the reader through a four step

50:14

process origin healing practice

50:16

where the first part is about naming and

50:18

identifying the wound. Do not be

50:20

surprised if you have multiple. So

50:22

you're naming what wound or

50:24

wounds you resonate with

50:27

and identify

50:27

with. The second part of the practice

50:30

is witnessing. So

50:33

Yeah. The part of the self again that

50:36

just wants to move on. We

50:38

don't tend. We don't acknowledge and

50:41

see ourselves very well. And

50:43

the witnessing step is about that.

50:45

Now, I'm a big believer in witnessing

50:48

the self also a big believer in having

50:50

another human whom

50:52

we trust, who loves us, somebody

50:55

we're safe with, do witnessing as

50:57

well. What's really important

50:59

for people to hear is that the person

51:01

or people who contributed to the

51:03

origin wound do not need

51:06

to participate in the witnessing of

51:08

it. Now, they don't need to participate

51:11

in the healing of it in any way. In

51:13

fact, I would say probably more times than

51:15

not, I hear people say, like,

51:17

yeah, my parent just can't

51:19

acknowledge it or their super defensive or

51:22

all they do is explain why

51:24

they did what they did. Right? And like and people

51:26

keep going there over and over and over again. Well,

51:28

maybe if I say it this or maybe if I write them a letter

51:30

instead of speaking it to them or maybe if I'm

51:32

really kind or maybe if I get really angry, like,

51:35

what way will it get through? And I think

51:37

sometimes when we get caught in this space,

51:39

of Illing the person that

51:41

we so badly want to acknowledge

51:43

it, to be the person who has

51:45

to do it, we get trapped in

51:48

this cycle and can't find a

51:50

way forward. And so oftentimes

51:52

witnessing the younger self, I remember

51:54

when I was gosh, I must have

51:56

been like seven or eight years old. I

51:58

would find these like sneaky ways to

52:01

pick up the telephone and listen in on

52:03

my parents' conversations or

52:05

I perched myself at the top of the steps and

52:07

there was a little opening where I could listen

52:09

in to the conversation that my mom

52:11

was having on the phone. You know, becoming

52:13

this detective and trying to figure out who's telling

52:16

the truth or what's going on. I needed that information.

52:18

And I remember the first time that I

52:21

really closed my eyes and kind

52:24

of transported myself as an adult,

52:27

witnessing from afar, you know, if you

52:29

were seeing it on a movie screen, It was

52:31

maybe a few feet away from my seven,

52:33

eight year old self perched atop those

52:35

stairs. But I just got there and

52:37

I was watching her watching

52:39

her listen in, watching her

52:41

absorb the fighting,

52:44

all of the conflict, all the anger, the

52:46

Illing, and just seeing her.

52:48

You know? Again, I didn't have Illing,

52:51

neither of my parents ever remarried. There were

52:53

no step parents or anybody else there's

52:55

just no validation. Right? And so

52:57

there was something really important about

53:00

being able to witness what

53:02

I had gone through through my

53:04

adult clear lenses today.

53:07

And so that was so important for

53:09

me to do and it's been really important for

53:11

people I work with to do that witnessing or

53:14

to have a loving partner do that as

53:16

well. The third part is grieving.

53:19

People are like, no, I don't want

53:21

to. When in doubt, grieving more,

53:24

when stuck, grieving more. But

53:26

that will sound to a lot of people like wallowing.

53:28

Right? What's the difference?

53:29

Yeah. Because

53:30

Illing seems unproductive, but

53:32

grieving in the sense you mean it is the opposite.

53:35

Yeah. Right. It's very intentional. This

53:37

is never about us wallowing,

53:39

getting stuck, being in some type

53:41

of victim position. This is about

53:44

Illing what needs to be felt.

53:46

Right. And sometimes I think when we have an aversion

53:48

to wallowing or Illing, we're like, nope, I

53:50

don't need to. You know, I'm just gonna again whiteknuckle

53:53

my way through something. And what we find

53:55

is that grieving is

53:57

so important for us to

53:59

allow ourselves to come into contact with

54:02

the emotion that is there, what

54:04

was lost. The sadness

54:07

that is held around what those

54:09

experiences might have been like, and

54:11

to allow ourselves to come into contact

54:13

with the pain. And then the fourth

54:15

step is pivoting. I

54:18

don't believe that we pivot before

54:20

we witness and grieve. You

54:22

know, I think that the pivot, right, which is

54:24

about it. I don't know if you've ever done cross

54:26

country skiing.

54:28

I I tried and Okay. I

54:30

took them off after ten minutes to throw them away and grab

54:32

this notebook. Yeah. Makes sense. But you

54:34

know the idea of, you know,

54:36

if a track is already laid. Yeah.

54:38

It's so much easier. And I mean, it's hard

54:41

anyway, but it's easier than when

54:43

you are in fresh powder. And

54:46

the pivot is really about, okay,

54:48

I'm jumping off the thing

54:50

that is so familiar, the pattern.

54:52

Right? And when I have witnessed and grieved

54:55

the pause between stimulus and

54:57

response, Right? There's more space

54:59

for us to connect with that.

55:01

We see we are aware

55:03

of and then it's in that moment

55:06

that we can make a decision about staying

55:09

in the loop

55:11

or exiting and trying something

55:13

different. I love that. It's so

55:15

important that pause between

55:17

stimulus and response. That

55:20

is the worst feeling for me. Mhmm. And even

55:22

what you said a second ago about, it's not about

55:24

feeling yourself to be some kind of victim. Like, I'm really

55:27

sensitive to that and I I reflect back him.

55:29

I -- Mhmm. -- I had this problem

55:31

as kid and their parents were emotionally available

55:33

in this way and that way and whatever. And but

55:35

I don't wanna get trapped in this narrative that

55:38

strips of my ability to do better,

55:40

to do otherwise, but you still have to

55:42

you have to reckon with these Illing, you have to face them, you

55:44

know, again, the

55:45

cliche, the only way out is true.

55:47

Right. It is. It is the pathway

55:50

to our freedom. Right? And and

55:52

there's such truths to that. And,

55:54

you know, certain cliches or cliches because

55:56

there's truth to that. Right? Like, that the only way

55:58

out is through. And I think when we

56:01

build up these muscles of awareness

56:03

of what's happening in this moment

56:06

is not just about this moment. What's

56:08

happening in this moment is every

56:10

moment that predates this moment that

56:12

is familiar to what's playing

56:15

out here, when we tend to

56:17

that pain, then pain is like,

56:19

okay. Like, almost as if you could make

56:21

pain or your wounds a different entity.

56:24

Externalize it. Put it outside of you for

56:26

a moment. Pain is not out

56:28

to destroy us. They're not like,

56:31

I can't wait to fuck your life. Oh, you know, it's like,

56:33

That's not what it's trying to do.

56:36

It's there to be tended to.

56:38

It wants acknowledgment. It

56:40

wants to be seen. It wants to

56:42

be heard. It wants to be honored.

56:45

And that's not what we do. We just try

56:47

to go on with our lives, skip

56:49

over it, or we don't tend to it properly.

56:51

And that's the beauty is that once we

56:53

do, then pain is able to

56:56

say, okay, I

56:58

don't need to keep bringing you back into this. That's

57:00

why we wind up in the same patterns

57:02

over and over again. Pain is like, I have to

57:04

find clever ways to keep bringing you back into

57:06

contact with this thing. So I'm gonna

57:08

find ways to do that. Yeah. There

57:11

is something so profound about watching

57:13

it play out and having people care

57:15

for the pain and remember it. You

57:18

know, like, it doesn't just go out of sight

57:20

and it doesn't mean that you come to some, you

57:22

know, completion place or, you know,

57:24

you never come into contact with the

57:26

pain again. We know that grief is

57:28

an ongoing thing and we

57:30

will face it every time it presents

57:33

itself, and it's more

57:35

that the charge changes. Right?

57:37

That the charge lessens And

57:40

when the charge lessens, we

57:42

have more control. We

57:44

have more agency as opposed

57:46

to the pain having more control.

57:49

This is an unfair, probably impossible

57:51

question, but I'm gonna ask it anyway because

57:54

I'm annoying like that sometimes. Okay.

57:57

How do we know when to walk away? From

57:59

a relationship. Mhmm. Yeah.

58:02

You know, that question in and

58:04

of itself outsources the

58:06

answer. What does that

58:08

mean? You are asking

58:11

somebody outside of you

58:13

to make that decision. And

58:15

I know that you're asking this for the

58:17

general public, but I think that that's

58:19

what people do. Right? As they say, how

58:22

will I know instead of

58:25

going in words and spending

58:27

time with all of the parts

58:30

and the pieces that are specific to

58:32

that individual and that

58:34

relationship. Because how

58:36

one person knows is entirely

58:39

different than how another person knows.

58:41

And I think a lot of times it's so

58:43

hard to be responsible

58:46

for that decision. There's something nice

58:48

about somebody else telling us that, like,

58:50

Yeah. Well, if they do x, y, and z,

58:52

then you should definitely leave

58:55

to actually own the

58:57

decision based on what

58:59

is true about your life and what's

59:01

true about, what's playing out in your relationship.

59:05

It's not a cop out, my

59:07

answer. It's not a cop out. I promise.

59:09

But I that's where I would turn somebody

59:12

for us to then begin to have the conversations

59:14

of what is happening in that person's

59:16

internal world and story.

59:18

I mean, look, probably, if nothing else,

59:21

you know, relationship is a dynamic between

59:23

two people, but -- Mhmm. Simply

59:26

doing the work to figure out what your

59:28

problems are, what's coming from you,

59:30

and discerning that

59:33

from just the shit you're projecting

59:35

onto your partner is

59:37

very helpful. At least then you can have maybe

59:39

a clearer view of not

59:41

just what's wrong, but what's

59:44

solvable. Absolutely, you

59:46

know, I get a lot of questions about what

59:48

if what if a partner doesn't want

59:51

to look at their orcholones? Are they, like, definitely

59:53

don't wanna talk about their family. And

59:56

in the best case scenario, we have

59:58

people who do. That's our best case scenario,

1:00:00

is that people are like, give me this book. Pull up my sleeves.

1:00:03

Let's get into it. But we

1:00:05

can affect a lot on our

1:00:07

own. Right? You can never

1:00:09

make the horse drink from the well. You

1:00:11

cannot force a person into this space and I

1:00:13

would not recommend that. But what I would

1:00:15

recommend is doing your own

1:00:18

Sometimes we start living by example. Sometimes

1:00:20

we start revealing, oh my gosh, I just had

1:00:22

this aha and what this

1:00:24

reveal to me is x, y, and z. Those

1:00:26

things can sometimes shift

1:00:28

a system in pretty significant ways.

1:00:31

And when you stay on your own

1:00:32

path, there's clarity that will come

1:00:34

from that. This

1:00:37

conversation and the book,

1:00:39

they really did hit me at an opportune

1:00:42

time, and I read it very very closely and

1:00:44

took it on board. So thanks.

1:00:47

Thank you. The book is, once

1:00:49

again, the Origins of You How

1:00:52

Breaking Family patterns can liberate the way

1:00:54

we live and

1:00:55

love. Vienna Ferron. Thanks

1:00:57

so much for being here.

1:00:58

Thank you for having me.

1:01:17

Eric Janikis is our producer. Patrick

1:01:20

Boyd engineered this episode. Alex

1:01:22

Ovrington wrote RT Music. And

1:01:25

AM Hall is the boss. I

1:01:28

told Vienna before we actually

1:01:30

started recording that I had to

1:01:32

be a little personal and speak from my own experiences.

1:01:34

Because that's all I know. Obviously,

1:01:38

my experiences are my

1:01:40

own and we're all living our own killer

1:01:42

circumstances, but there are common threads.

1:01:45

Most of us are trying to navigate relationships.

1:01:48

A lot of us are trying to be parents. A

1:01:50

a lot of us are struggling with our

1:01:52

own unhelpful counterproductive patterns

1:01:55

and maybe some of this helped.

1:02:01

But let me know what you think. Drop us a line

1:02:03

at the gray area at box dot com.

1:02:06

And if you appreciated this episode,

1:02:08

as always, share it with your friends on

1:02:10

all the socials. New episodes

1:02:12

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1:02:15

and subscribe.