0:15

Pushkin. When

0:22

people find out I teach a class about happiness, they

0:24

usually ask for the Cliffdnes version, what

0:27

are my top ten tips or top five?

0:29

Some people even go straight to the point, what's

0:32

one thing I can change in order to be happier?

0:35

When my Yale students ask me this, my answer

0:37

is always the same. Get some

0:40

sleep. Having a solid eight

0:42

hours of shut eye is the foundation on which all

0:44

the other happiness habits rest. If

0:46

you're exhausted, you aren't going to make progress

0:48

on any of the topics we tackle in this podcast.

0:52

So that's the simple answer. Happiness requires

0:54

sleep. The problem is that getting

0:56

the right amount isn't always easy for

0:59

me. There's always that one last email to send

1:01

before bed, just to get it off

1:03

my plate, But then another arrives,

1:05

and another, and before I know it,

1:08

hours have passed and the stresses of the day

1:10

have just crept under the covers with me. In

1:13

the final episode of our New Year mini season,

1:16

I'm going to talk about sleep with one of my favorite

1:18

experts on the subject. She's not

1:20

a scientist, but she's experienced

1:22

firsthand what it's like to live on the edge of

1:24

exhaustion. In her book The Sleep

1:26

Revolution, She explores how we got

1:28

ourselves into this sleepless mess and what

1:30

we can do to get out of it. I was so excited

1:33

to chat with her about these sleep solutions

1:35

that I decided to host our chat in front

1:37

of a live studio audience at the wings

1:39

Soho Space in New York. Who

1:41

is the Sleep Girl. She is best selling

1:44

author, calumnist, and founding CEO of

1:46

the well being giant Thrive Global,

1:48

Arianna Puffing Dood. So join

1:50

me and Arianna in this finale episode

1:52

of The Happiness Lab twenty twenty.

2:03

So. I wanted to start at the beginning with your

2:05

story, Arianna, because you learned about

2:07

the power of sleep firsthand and with

2:09

a pretty scary wakeup call. So I want to set

2:11

the stage. So tell me what your life was like before that big

2:14

wake up call. My life before

2:16

my wake up call, which happened in

2:19

two thousand and seven in the spring of two

2:21

thousand and seven, was

2:23

filled with sleep deprivation. I

2:27

was a divorced mother of two teenage

2:29

daughters and had founded

2:31

The Huffington Post two years

2:33

earlier, and I

2:36

had bought into the collective delusion

2:39

that in order to be super mom

2:41

and super founder, I

2:44

just had to burn out, and that was just

2:46

the price you pay for success. But

2:49

worse than that, if you had asked me that

2:51

morning, how are your ian, I

2:53

would have said fine. And that's

2:55

one of the saddest things, because

2:58

I had forgotten what it

3:00

really is to be fine and

3:03

what it is to be really recharged

3:06

and fully engaged

3:09

in your life. So I'd

3:11

actually returned from doing him an

3:13

early morning show on CNN

3:16

and went to get

3:18

a sweater because I was feeling cold and

3:21

I felt like collapsed. I hit my head

3:23

on my desk, broke my check bone.

3:26

When you suddenly collapse, they don't know what's

3:28

wrong with you. So you go from

3:30

echo cardiogram to test

3:33

for brain tumors, etc. Etc.

3:35

And you know, doctor's waiting rooms

3:38

are a great place to reflect on your

3:40

life. And

3:43

at the end of it, you know, literally after all

3:45

these tests, I have this amazing kind

3:47

of philosophical doctor who

3:49

said to me, I have all the results, and

3:53

what you have is

3:55

civilizations disease burnout.

3:59

And he said, I'm sorry to tell you

4:01

that there is nothing the medical profession

4:03

can do for you. You have to

4:05

change the way you live, which was very profound

4:08

because a lot of doctors

4:12

still think there is a drug for

4:16

every problem, or you can't sleep,

4:18

or just a cambion. No, No, the

4:20

problem is not that, The problem

4:22

is that I don't prioritize it. So

4:24

he actually took the

4:27

time and had the wisdom to go deeper.

4:29

Looking back, it was kind of a total

4:32

gift. It stopped

4:34

me. It got me

4:37

reflecting on my life, on what I

4:39

was doing, and because I'm a bit

4:41

of a research nerd, it

4:43

also got me looking at

4:45

the fact that all around the

4:47

world, hundreds of millions of people

4:50

were burned out, that this was not an

4:52

individual problem, it was a

4:54

collective problem. So talk about

4:56

some of the broad changes you made, and then

4:59

specifically about sleep. Well,

5:02

the first change I made, being

5:05

always the editor, was

5:07

to bring all this topic into the

5:09

Huffington Post. So suddenly

5:12

the Hvingdon Post, which was a

5:14

political site, started

5:16

covering sleep and

5:21

we launched a dedicated sleep

5:23

section in two thousand and seven. And

5:26

I remember a conversation at the Huffington

5:28

Post board with a lot of complaints

5:30

from board members saying

5:33

that they thought this was not serious, it

5:35

was a trivial topic and

5:37

why was the Havingdon Post covering

5:39

it? It turned out to be actually the best

5:41

thing that would have happened to the Huvington Post,

5:43

because by the time I left

5:46

in twenty sixteen, we

5:48

had over sixty percent

5:51

of our traffic coming from non political

5:53

issues. In my

5:56

personal life, I really

5:58

began to prioritize sleep. We

6:00

have been treating sleep or something negotiable,

6:03

something optional, or worse,

6:06

something that really dedicates

6:09

that ambitious people didn't

6:11

really have to give in too. You

6:13

know, of course, we have all these sayings

6:15

in our culture, right, I'll sleep

6:18

when I'm dead. John bon

6:20

Java used to live in my apartment building

6:23

here in Saho, and I said to him one day,

6:25

I would love you to redo this song, change

6:28

the words to say I'll sleep when I'm tired.

6:32

The other thing, of course, that science makes

6:35

very clear is that you will be dead a lot faster.

6:38

I remember going to dinner with

6:41

a guy recently who bragged that

6:43

he had only gotten for our

6:45

sleep the night before, and I remember

6:48

thinking, but not saying, you

6:50

know what, if you had gotten five, this dinner

6:53

would have been a lot more interesting. But

6:58

I think the problem with this, I mean, the scary thing

7:00

about this culture is that people

7:02

believe it's a badge of honor. I mean, one of the problems

7:05

with sleep is that we're not getting it, but another is

7:07

that we believe it's okay, not in yet it

7:09

And just to kind of get a sense of that, I just want to see the

7:11

sleep crisis that we might be dealing within this room.

7:14

So how many of you would say that

7:16

you're not experiencing any form of sleep

7:18

crisis, Like, in the last two months, you've never felt

7:20

tired. Oh, it's pretty

7:23

good, awesome, all right? So how many of you would say

7:25

that in the last two months you've

7:27

occasionally felt tired? Right?

7:31

And how many of you are feeling like you

7:33

self report being tired a lot. That's

7:39

say, you're in the right place. Yeah,

7:42

we're preaching to a choir a little bit, but we definitely

7:44

got more clapping on the kind of crisis

7:46

type. So, I mean, talk to me about the level

7:49

of this crisis, Like, how bad is

7:51

this right now? There is a scientific

7:53

consensus that unless

7:55

you have a genetic mutation, and

7:58

about one and a half percent of the

8:00

population does, the

8:02

vast majority of us

8:05

need seven to nine

8:07

hours to become completely recharged.

8:10

Where you are in the seven to nine

8:13

hour spectrum is individual. I'm

8:15

an eate our girl, and

8:18

ninety five percent of the time

8:20

I get it because I prioritize

8:23

it. You may be a seven hour

8:26

girl or boy, or a nine hour,

8:28

but we're somewhere there if you're

8:31

going to be fully recharged. The

8:33

consequences of not getting

8:36

enough sleep are so huge

8:38

and monumental, you know, starting

8:40

with our health, a greater likelihood

8:43

of diabetes, of heart disease,

8:46

of high stress levels

8:48

of Alzheimer's. I mean that is like

8:51

the latest amazing

8:54

data on the connection between cognitive

8:57

decline and sleep deprivation. It

8:59

doesn't make any rational sense

9:02

not to prioritize sleep. What's

9:04

amazing is it's not just our physical

9:06

health. In your book, you talk a lot about

9:09

the mental health problems that come from not sleeping.

9:11

Well, absolutely, and you know, there's such

9:13

a clear connection between

9:16

sleep deprivation and depression and anxiety,

9:19

which is why I'm so excited

9:22

about the movement to start school

9:24

later, which is absolutely

9:27

essential. Kids

9:29

go to school exhausted that don't pay

9:31

attention, they're classified

9:34

as add they're put on medication,

9:38

and it's that vicious cycle

9:41

which is completely unnecessary

9:44

if kids show up at school completely

9:47

recharged. So where do you think this mistaken

9:49

notion comes from, Like, how did we get so off

9:52

track with this? I trace

9:54

it back to the Industrial Revolution

9:57

because it was during the Industrial Revolution

9:59

when we started revering

10:02

machines. And of course the

10:04

goal with the machine is to minimize

10:07

downtime. I met someone

10:09

here from Salesforce and proudly

10:12

proclaims that I have ninety nine

10:15

point nine nine nine percent up

10:17

time. That is fantastic

10:19

for software, but for the

10:22

human operating system,

10:24

downtime is not a bug, it's

10:26

a feature. And you

10:29

know, if you go back to mythst of creation,

10:32

you know, every myth of creation has

10:35

God or Goddess creating

10:39

the universe in six days

10:41

and then taking the seventh day off.

10:45

You know, clearly God is omniscient,

10:47

omnipotant, omnipresent. She

10:49

didn't need to talk the day off. She

10:53

was sending us a message we

10:56

are now just beginning to listen.

10:59

It's the time off

11:01

from our worldly pursuits, because

11:04

there's something about surrendering

11:07

to sleep in a

11:09

sense every night, recognizing

11:11

the mystery of life that we don't have answers

11:14

to. Of course, we have

11:16

huge traditions of prophetic dreams,

11:20

but also dreams that simply

11:22

work out through whatever it is that's

11:24

unresolved from the day. So

11:27

it's kind of a magical time, and

11:29

when we acknowledge it that way, it's

11:32

easy to surrender to it. But

11:34

kind of thinking of ourselves like machines, we

11:36

end up missing that magical time or not prioritizing

11:39

it. I think the other key is just to you

11:41

know, if you really believe the statistic.

11:43

I mean, the one that's most compelling for my college students

11:45

is this idea that you know, if you've been up for seventeen

11:47

hours, you basically have a blood alcohol level

11:50

that you shouldn't be driving, and like you wouldn't

11:52

go to work like that, you wouldn't take care of

11:54

your kids like that. Well, of course, you remember

11:56

the tragic incident

11:58

of a brilliant student

12:01

after graduation whose

12:03

boyfriend fell asleep

12:05

behind the wheel and she

12:08

died. There are many tragedies

12:10

like that. I mean, that became a big story

12:13

because she was brilliant. She had written a book

12:15

which was published posthumously. But

12:18

there are a lot of traffic

12:20

incidents based on slip deprivation,

12:23

a lot of injuries

12:26

because of slip deprivation, and

12:28

then also an enormous

12:31

lack of compassion and empathy in

12:33

the way we interact with people

12:36

based on slip deprivation. Basically,

12:38

just think of it that way. Look at yourself

12:40

and you will recognize what I'm saying.

12:43

When I'm sleep deprived, I'm the worst

12:46

version of myself. I'm less

12:48

empathetic, I'm less compassionate,

12:50

I'm less creative, I'm more reactive.

12:54

In fact, I was giving a speech at a Facebook

12:56

conference and I told the engineers

12:59

that that I want them to create

13:01

a feature that would allow me to unfriend

13:04

myself during those days because

13:07

I don't really want to be around me, but I have

13:10

no choice. And

13:12

this is so real. It affects absolutely

13:15

every aspect of how we show up.

13:17

And I find the

13:20

more you kind of look at life and reflect

13:23

on life, the more important joy becomes.

13:26

So I'm not a stage where I

13:29

don't measure my life by how effective

13:31

I am. I mean, I know I can be effective.

13:34

It's like that's kind of table stakes, and

13:37

I think most people know they can

13:39

be effective. The question

13:41

is can I also be joyful? Can

13:43

I find joy in what I'm doing? And that's

13:46

part of what makes us really

13:48

love our work more and that's

13:50

another thing that they can flip side of all the downsides

13:52

of sleep are all the good sides of sleep that we forget

13:55

that it increases joy. You also talk in the

13:57

book about how getting enough sleep

13:59

can be kind of like a stress shield. It's sort

14:01

of like a sort of resilience performance

14:03

enhancing drug. Absolutely,

14:06

we know that the same I

14:09

think and happen to ten people, and they

14:11

all react differently. Someone

14:13

may be completely overwhelmed and Brock

14:16

and Bite and others can

14:18

just find creative ways to deal with it,

14:21

and if you're exhausted, it's

14:23

less likely you'll be able to do that. So

14:26

it seems like sleep really is a medical

14:28

miracle. I hope everybody in the audience here and

14:30

everybody who's listening at home is convinced of that. But

14:33

the fact that sleep is a medical miracle

14:35

kind of raises this question about how can

14:37

we get more of it? And that is a question I'm

14:39

going to pose to Ariana. Once we return

14:42

from a quick break, the Happiness Lab will

14:44

be right back. All

15:01

right, welcome back. So we've just heard the sleep

15:03

deprivation basically undermines pretty

15:05

much everything we need to be happy. And if you just

15:07

want one more statistic to drive this home. For

15:09

every hour of sleep you lose. Your risk

15:11

of psychological distress goes up fourteen

15:14

percent for every single hour. So

15:16

sleep is basically fantastic. We need

15:18

to create more of it. But then that raises

15:20

this cultural tension, which is even

15:23

if I reflect for myself, I

15:25

know the science about this really well. I mean, I've

15:27

read your book, and you know, I teach you a course on this stuff.

15:30

But when I have to, you know,

15:32

shut Netflix off and go to bed, or

15:34

put my phone away, or really shut

15:37

off for the night and put it far away so I'm not tempted

15:39

to check my email, I honestly

15:41

still struggle with that. Like, there just is

15:44

this tension between the benefits

15:46

of sleep and this lifestyle where we're always

15:48

connected. And that was one of the reasons I really

15:50

wanted to talk to you, because you know, you're a super

15:53

successful businesswoman, but you've

15:55

managed to solve this tension,

15:57

And so how have you been able to

15:59

fought this? I guess how did you come up with the commitment to

16:01

really fight this? The way

16:03

to commit to it

16:05

is to break it down into microsteps

16:09

and pick your microsteps,

16:11

stay with it and get

16:13

an accountability body. If you want,

16:16

you can keep each other honest about

16:20

shutting off Netflix. Incidentally,

16:23

Read Hastings, the CEO of Netflix,

16:26

said that the main competitor

16:28

of Netflix is sleep, so

16:32

he knows exactly what's happening.

16:35

And you know, the way of course we are hooked

16:39

is the one episode ends

16:41

and the other begins. So

16:44

that's where a certain

16:46

amount of ruthlessness

16:48

comes in about priorities when

16:51

you begin to see how much more

16:54

you love your life when

16:56

you're not sleep deprived. And

16:58

I speak as someone who spent a large

17:00

part of my life walking around

17:03

like a zombie. I actually actively

17:06

remember being

17:08

in a board, mean eating and singing

17:10

in the back of the room, a long

17:12

table and thinking

17:15

if I go and crawl under the

17:17

table, will anybody notice?

17:20

You know, that's how exhaust I was. And another

17:23

way I knew and you would know if you're

17:25

exhausted is the minute I would be

17:27

in a darkened auditorium, a

17:29

movie and an opera house whatever, I would

17:31

be asleep, like literally it would take

17:33

like a second, and that's

17:35

not normal. So, Arianna, what are some of the

17:38

chips that you've used to improve your sleep over

17:40

time? One of the

17:42

tools that I would

17:44

love to sort of share with everyone here

17:47

is a transition to sleep. Anybody

17:50

here who is a parent knows that you

17:53

have a transition to sleep with your

17:55

baby. You know you sing

17:58

it a lalla by give

18:00

it a bath. My

18:03

transition to sleep is thirty minutes, but

18:06

you know, start with five. My

18:09

transition is I always have

18:11

a hot bath. I love baths.

18:15

If you don't like baths, have a hot shower.

18:18

The point is not cleanliness, it's

18:20

a ritual. It's almost like

18:23

washing the day away, kind of

18:25

imagining the day being washed

18:28

away with all the good and the bad.

18:30

And now you are getting ready

18:34

for sleep, the time

18:36

to completely surrender and recharge.

18:39

And then I actually love

18:42

to rekindle the romance with sleep.

18:45

So I love beautiful lingerie. If

18:50

you don't like beautiful lingerie, you

18:53

can wear a T shirt or nothing.

18:55

But if you wear a T shirt, do not

18:57

wear the same T shirt that you're going to

18:59

wear to the gym the next day, because

19:02

your body gets confusing messages

19:04

are we going to the gym or are

19:06

we going to sleep? So

19:09

I have dedicated T shirts for sleep.

19:12

Whatever it is, dedicated sleep well.

19:15

And then once I get into bed,

19:17

absolutely zero screens.

19:21

I only read real books, and

19:24

I read books that have nothing to do with

19:26

work. I read novels,

19:28

I read spiritual books, I

19:31

read poetry, anything

19:33

that helps me disconnect for my day,

19:36

and I end my day with three

19:38

things I'm grateful for. One of

19:40

my favorite tips that you give in your book, though, and

19:42

maybe the hardest tip I think for busy people,

19:45

is this idea that if you're experiencing sleep

19:47

deprivation, that might not be the

19:49

only problem, Like your sleep

19:51

deprivation might be assigned

19:53

that there are other issues that you're not addressing.

19:57

Absolutely. I mean it's like taking an

19:59

inventory of your day and

20:01

seeing what can you cut, and

20:04

often it's things that are joyful

20:06

and enjoyable, like watching a show you

20:08

like or having a dinner

20:11

with friends. It's like something

20:13

has to give, and there are times

20:16

when you know what it

20:18

will be nice to go to dinner with friends, but

20:20

I'm just going to have a hot bath and

20:23

catch up on my sleep. And

20:26

the more responsibilities

20:28

you have a job, starting a

20:30

business, children, the

20:33

more imperative it is to

20:36

be pretty relentless about

20:39

what you

20:41

are going to say no to. You

20:44

cannot say yes to sleep without saying

20:46

no to other things, and

20:48

again, start small. You

20:52

want to start with getting fifteen minutes

20:54

more, you know, don't say I'm

20:56

going to go to eight hours or seven

20:58

hours. Just start very

21:01

small. So you build that muscle, you

21:03

begin to have more energy,

21:06

you begin to see the impact it has,

21:08

and that the impact it has, it becomes

21:10

like a magnet. So

21:13

I work a lot with college students and many

21:15

of them, many of them will ask me, why

21:17

can't I just not sleep now so I can sleep

21:20

later once I'm successful? Like you, you know, what

21:22

would you say to the college student who wants

21:24

to do the grind right now and things they might

21:26

prioritize sleep later. Well, thank

21:28

you so much for asking that question, because

21:31

it is based on a misconception

21:35

about what leads

21:38

to the greatest performance. So,

21:40

if you are an entrepreneur, you are building

21:43

a business, you want to

21:45

show up the best version of

21:47

yourself. Your business depends

21:49

on the quality of your decisions.

21:52

It doesn't depend on how many hours you

21:54

are at your desk. And

21:57

more than three quarters of startups

22:00

fail. And somebody

22:02

should do a study on the correlation

22:04

between sleep deprived,

22:07

exhausted entrepreneurs and

22:09

the decisions they make that lead to the

22:11

collapse of the companies. So

22:14

there is no trade off between

22:17

sleep and prioritizing our well

22:19

being and our performance. On the contrary,

22:23

the two things are completely interconnected.

22:25

So we need to take sleep and

22:28

well being out of the realm

22:30

of nice to have later in

22:32

life and recognize its integral

22:35

to succeeding right now. When

22:37

Jeff Bezos wrote

22:39

on Thrive that he sleeps

22:42

for eight hours because it improves

22:44

his decision making, it

22:46

went crazy viral. I

22:48

mean, there are many more very

22:51

successful people who get enough sleep,

22:54

and I know that because they confess to

22:56

me. But I remember

22:58

when at a dinner Jeff Bezos said

23:00

that to me, and I said to him, you must write

23:02

about it. I think it will help so many people.

23:04

He said, I'm a private man, I don't write

23:06

about it. But I harassed

23:08

him until

23:11

he wrote about it, and then he actually

23:13

loved it because it has such an impact.

23:16

And that is what it's so interesting too,

23:18

encouraging people to come out as

23:21

good sleepers. I

23:24

mean, this is the exciting thing. And kind of where I want

23:26

to end is this question of are you optimistic?

23:29

I mean, in your book you presented I think

23:31

what shows that there's a real crisis here.

23:34

But I think since your book, you have Jeff Bezos

23:36

coming out as an eight hour a day sleeper, and

23:39

so many people in this room who are excited

23:41

to talk about sleep. Are you optimistic

23:43

that things are changing even though the culture

23:46

isn't perfect. I

23:48

am extremely optimistic.

23:50

I am optimistic for many reasons.

23:54

I'm optimistic, first of

23:56

all, because for

23:59

many years who have really neglected

24:02

this conversation, your cause

24:04

was pretty instrumental in bringing

24:07

that conversation back to the mainstream.

24:11

And I feel like in any

24:13

transition, you know, from the Dark Ages

24:15

to the Renaissance,

24:18

you are going to have multiple

24:21

behaviors coexisting. So I'm sure

24:23

you can have tons of examples from

24:26

executives who are still bragging

24:28

about how little sleep they got because

24:31

they didn't get the memo. But you

24:33

know, it's changing, and I think

24:35

now there is a

24:37

different listening. Like if you told

24:39

your boss something about sleep,

24:42

it wouldn't be seen as something eliant

24:44

because the Wallstreet Journal

24:48

very regularly cover sleep,

24:50

and so does the Harvard Business Review,

24:52

and my kids didn't entire

24:55

study about the role of sleep in

24:57

leadership, And when I first read it, I

24:59

honestly thought it was an onion headline,

25:03

you know, because it

25:05

was like my Kinsey is actually recommending

25:09

our sleep for leaders. But

25:11

that's a sign of the times. But

25:14

we can also learn from

25:16

the animal kingdom. I know you've studied

25:18

animals also as well as human beings,

25:21

and my favorite sleep animal is

25:23

the cheetah. The cheetah

25:25

sleeps for eighteen hours

25:29

and then she can accelerate

25:31

going from zero to

25:33

sixty miles in one minute. I

25:36

don't recommend sleeping for eighteen hours,

25:39

but it's almost like a metaphor that

25:41

the fastest animal in existence

25:44

sleeps for eighteen hours. So

25:47

you could say, like the most amazing,

25:49

productive and temperaneure

25:52

or business leader is somebody who

25:54

shows up fully recharged. And

25:57

that's why I'm optimistic, fantastic.

26:00

Well, I think of all the people who are starting

26:02

this important conversation, I have a lot

26:04

of gratitude for you for doing it so well

26:06

and so eloquently, and so I want

26:09

to end with giving a huge thank you to

26:11

Arianna for all the amazing work she's doing and for

26:13

sharing that work with this audience

26:15

and all the folks who are listening on the podcast. Let's

26:17

give a big round of applause to Arianna.

26:30

So, Happiness Lab listeners, I hope we've

26:32

convinced you to choose sleep, Cancel

26:34

something you were planning to do tonight, and devote

26:37

that time to not being awake. It'll

26:39

pay back dividends. You'll be fresher

26:42

to tackle the tasks in your waking life tomorrow,

26:44

and you'll be happier. That's

26:47

all for this New Year mini season. I hope

26:50

it's been a helpful start to your new decade.

26:52

It would be great if you could rate and review the show and

26:55

spread the word to anyone you know who might

26:57

like a few happiness tips. I'll be back

26:59

with a new season of The Happiness Lab at the end of

27:01

April. We have some great stories

27:03

and fantastic guests, as well as

27:05

the latest science on how to be happier. Until

27:08

then, more can I say except sleep.

27:25

The Happiness Lab is co written and produced by

27:27

Ryan Dilley. The show was mastered

27:29

by Evan Beola and our original music

27:31

was composed by Zachary Silver. Special

27:34

thanks to Ben Davis, Neil La Belle, Julia

27:37

Barton, Carli Nigliori, Heather Faane,

27:39

Maggie Taylor, Maya Kanig, and

27:41

Jacob Weisberg. The Happiness Lab is

27:43

brought to you by Pushkin Industries.