0:06

Welcome back for

0:06

another episode of the happy at

0:09

work podcast, with Laura, Tessa

0:09

and Michael.

0:14

Each week we

0:14

have thoughtful conversations

0:17

with leaders, founders and

0:17

authors about happiness at work.

0:22

Tune in each

0:22

Thursday for a new conversation.

0:25

Enjoy the show. Welcome, everyone, to the happy

0:38

work podcast. I'm your host,

0:42

Michael McCarthy today. And I'd

0:42

like to welcome our guests from

0:46

Australia, Jennifer Nurik, who

0:46

is the author of a new book heal

0:52

your anxious attachment.

0:52

Jennifer, welcome.

0:56

Thanks for having me on. Michael. Great to be here.

0:59

And thank you

0:59

for coming on the show at 630 in

1:03

the morning. We really

1:03

appreciate that.

1:06

Easy, I'm up

1:06

most mornings at six. So just

1:09

have breakfast after no problem.

1:11

Oh, excellent.

1:11

Excellent. So Jennifer, we'd

1:14

love you to meet our audience.

1:14

Could you share us a little bit

1:18

about yourself your career

1:18

journey? And how did you come to

1:21

write "heal your anxious attachment"?

1:25

I've been in

1:25

the healing space. My whole

1:28

career, I really entered in at

1:28

about 25 I arrived in Australia

1:34

and with a love of my life and

1:34

didn't have a work visa I was on

1:39

a de facto visa. So I thought

1:39

I'll just go and study and I'll

1:44

just study some things that

1:44

sound really interesting. So I

1:48

studied Kinesiology. I don't

1:48

know if you've ever heard of

1:50

that... muscle testing, Reiki

1:50

energetic and spiritual healing.

1:56

We've got a big college here in

1:56

Sydney that specializes. I

2:03

studied all kinds of things,

2:03

Qigong, yoga, and just kind of

2:08

played around in that space and

2:08

learnt so much and experienced a

2:13

lot of personal healing through

2:13

that process of some childhood

2:17

stuff that I was carrying. And

2:17

then I went on to study a

2:22

master's in applied

2:22

psychotherapy, and counseling,

2:25

which is one of the highest

2:25

qualifications in Australia is

2:29

the sort of a psychotherapy

2:29

pathway. And just loved it. I've

2:35

been doing a lot of

2:35

transactional analysis work. So

2:38

in a child in a parent in an

2:38

adult since my mid 20s,

2:44

certified now in EMDR, internal

2:44

family systems. For those of you

2:50

who don't know what internal

2:50

family systems is, it's about

2:54

parts work. So the work of

2:54

Richard Schwartz. And it's kind

2:58

of a, I see it as a really

2:58

amazing model, where we divided

3:06

the parts out into a protective

3:06

system, and also the XR so the

3:10

more wounded parts that are

3:10

holding a lot more pain. So I

3:15

see it quite similar to that in

3:15

a child model, just more

3:19

specific. And with a healing

3:19

pathway that actually includes a

3:24

little bit of energetic healing

3:24

near the end of that healing

3:26

process. I also do couples

3:26

therapy now and use the Sue

3:32

Johnson Emotionally Focused

3:32

couples therapy. So I really

3:35

enjoy doing my cup of work. And

3:35

then I went into the attachment

3:39

space because of my own

3:39

attachment dynamic that was

3:42

playing out in my relationship

3:42

in my marriage in marriage for

3:45

18 years, with the same person

3:45

for over over half my life now,

3:51

which just seems like crazy. But

3:51

my partner has more of the

3:57

avoidant attachment patterns,

3:57

and I have more of the anxious

4:01

style. And so working that out

4:01

in our relationship has been a

4:06

journey. And that was what just

4:06

I discovered a lot of work

4:09

different ways to work with that.

4:12

That's fascinating. And it you've done so many things. I is one of your

4:13

strengths, love of learning.

4:17

Absolutely. Absolutely. Because

4:17

you were listing all these

4:22

things, and I was like, Yeah, I

4:22

tried that. I tried that, too. I

4:25

tried that, too. We're on the

4:25

same on the same path. But

4:30

curious about your book, when

4:30

you talk about these

4:34

attachments, the things that

4:34

have happened in our childhood

4:37

that that come with us into

4:37

adulthood. How do you see this

4:42

showing up at the workplace?

4:42

Hmm.

4:46

I like to use an example with this. I have permission from a good friend of

4:48

mine to use this as an example.

4:52

We were chatting one day and he

4:52

said, Dan, I've had this

4:57

realization that's what's good.

4:57

Along with my boss is an exact

5:02

replica of what was going on at

5:02

home with my dad, what was

5:06

happening was her boss was a

5:06

really difficult person. And her

5:12

work colleagues were coming to

5:12

her to kind of buffer between

5:17

them and him. So they would talk

5:17

to her and debrief and vent. And

5:23

she would kind of placate them

5:23

and reason with them and kind of

5:28

act as a go between between them

5:28

and the boss. She had this

5:32

realization that that's exactly

5:32

what happened with Dad, Dad was

5:36

a very difficult person. So her

5:36

siblings really struggled. And

5:40

she played exactly the same

5:40

role, this kind of peacekeeping

5:44

go between role and she found

5:44

that it was causing her a lot of

5:50

it was like, a pressure on her.

5:50

She was finding it. It was

5:55

almost like she had her

5:55

workload, and then she was

5:57

carrying the that emotional

5:57

burden of maintaining the peace

6:01

and keeping the balance at work

6:01

as well. And we had a whole

6:05

discussion about okay, how do we

6:05

how do we, you know, how to you

6:08

in a really sort of supportive

6:08

and loving way kind of step out

6:12

of that role. And that was a

6:12

real journey for her in helping

6:18

them have relationship directly

6:18

with the tricky boss, so that we

6:23

have an acknowledgement that

6:23

they will also have a learning

6:25

process through that, that there

6:25

is something we grow as humans

6:29

when we are faced with tricking

6:29

people, and we have to develop

6:34

different skills. So yeah, that

6:34

was a journey for her. But

6:37

really, it was about stepping

6:37

aside and kind of right, number

6:40

one, recognizing the pattern.

6:40

And number two, thinking of ways

6:44

to mindfully step out of it.

6:48

It's

6:48

interesting how you, you talk

6:50

about this, because it just

6:50

popped up for me, I do something

6:54

at work that I did, as my job

6:54

when I was a kid, I was the one

7:00

that would make everything

7:00

funny. So all the trauma, all

7:04

the bad stuff, any challenges, I

7:04

would turn it into a joke. And

7:09

people come to me at work with

7:09

the gossip. And I turn it into a

7:15

joke, and you just kind of

7:15

pointed out to me. I didn't make

7:19

it to. So step one, how do you

7:19

how do you become aware that

7:23

you're doing it? I literally

7:23

didn't notice until you came on

7:26

the show? How do you? How do you

7:26

become aware of something that's

7:29

just so in your bones?

7:33

That's a couple

7:33

of ways. One might be feedback,

7:37

if you get some feedback to

7:37

think about that. And and be

7:41

curious, can you

7:42

ask people for

7:42

feedback? And you create an

7:44

environment where you say, hey,

7:44

you know, you could do a little

7:48

magic wand? What would you make

7:48

a little bit better? Any advice

7:52

on that? For people who are kind

7:52

of new it? How do I get better

7:56

and change?

7:59

Course, absolutely, you can ask for feedback. And I would be really

8:01

mindful about who I'm asking for

8:07

the feedback, I'd probably start

8:07

with people who I know are close

8:12

to me and care about me. And I

8:12

would maybe preface it with, I

8:17

really want to know, because

8:17

sometimes there are things that

8:21

other people know about me that

8:21

are glaringly obvious. And I

8:25

don't know about me, and I'm

8:25

really looking at 15, my

8:29

communication skills and my

8:29

interpersonal skills or just

8:32

looking to be a better human

8:32

being. And it might be that you

8:35

can see things that are just

8:35

obvious that I'm really not able

8:37

to see. So I'd really value the

8:37

feedback, I would start with

8:40

something like that, because for

8:40

some people, it can be quite

8:44

confronting giving feedback,

8:44

they might think, oh, geez, I

8:47

have I have something really big

8:47

that I'd like to tell you. But

8:50

I'm afraid that you're not going

8:50

to like me that you're going to

8:52

talk about me behind my back

8:52

that you think that you want the

8:54

feedback, but you don't really

8:54

know what I'm going to say you

8:57

kind of know that anyway. And so

8:57

what's the point? So there's all

9:01

of that stuff that can block it.

9:01

So those would be my tips.

9:04

Great. Thank

9:04

you and I, I was noticing in

9:07

your in your bio before the show

9:07

started. That you're

9:11

specializing in anxious

9:11

attachment, childhood trauma,

9:16

and I teach around the world,

9:16

mostly, to undergrads and post

9:22

grads and especially with my

9:22

undergrads, I do a Mentimeter,

9:25

which is like this anonymous

9:25

polling that I can do for large

9:28

groups if I'm doing a large

9:28

audience. And when I asked them

9:32

in the beginning, a word cloud

9:32

of, Hey, how are you doing? I

9:37

always get three, the same three

9:37

words. And this is cross

9:42

cultural. I get pretty good. I

9:42

get tired, and then I get

9:50

anxious. And I'm wondering, are

9:50

you noticing that our current

9:58

generation or Gen Z who went

9:58

through COVID? Do you think that

10:02

they're more anxious than

10:02

previous generations? Have you

10:05

made any observations?

10:11

I'm trying to

10:11

think where does my feeling

10:13

about this come from? Because I

10:13

don't have a lot of contact with

10:17

Gen Z, to be honest. But what

10:17

I'm hearing from parents, I'm

10:23

hearing it more from the parents

10:23

I think about it is yes, that

10:28

there is more anxiety. And the

10:28

lens that I looked through with

10:32

that is that that means that

10:32

they're developing more anxious

10:35

parts. So parts of themselves

10:35

that come forward as holding a

10:40

lot of anxiety, anxious

10:40

feelings.

10:45

So for are Gen

10:45

Z college students who are

10:49

looking to be successful in the

10:49

future? How could you help them?

10:54

What are some things that that

10:54

might be able to be tools to

10:58

help them just sort of dial that

10:58

back a little bit?

11:04

So first step

11:04

is really recognizing that the

11:07

anxiety is building. And

11:07

everybody's system works

11:15

slightly differently. And I

11:15

think it's getting really

11:18

curious about, you know, what,

11:18

what works for me and what

11:21

doesn't. So in my own system, I

11:21

learned when I was about 27,

11:25

that if I have coffee, on a

11:25

Sunday morning, lovely

11:28

breakfast, nice cup of coffee,

11:28

little bit of hot chocolate in

11:31

it, that it makes me want my

11:31

heart rate go up, it makes me

11:35

feel quite anxious. And so

11:35

coffee for me is builds anxiety.

11:43

There are other things that I

11:43

know, in, in my own system that

11:47

create anxiety, so maybe even

11:47

writing a list of what are those

11:51

things? How can I support myself

11:51

to prepare for those things? Do

11:56

writing lists helped me with my

11:56

anxiety? If the anxiety is

12:00

ongoing? And starting to feel

12:00

like it's really overtaking? It

12:05

can be super helpful to speak to

12:05

a therapist who can help you get

12:08

to the source is there? What are

12:08

the parts that are holding

12:12

anxiety? Is other? Is there a

12:12

kind of visit fear around future

12:16

career? Is it fear around

12:16

relationship? Is it situational

12:20

with something that you're going

12:20

through? Is it kind of trapped

12:24

anxiety that was there a lot in

12:24

your childhood. So when I think

12:27

back to my own childhood, my

12:27

parents have nervous systems

12:32

that were very much stuck in

12:32

that hyper arousal that kind of

12:35

fight or flight. And so my

12:35

nervous system was in this

12:39

constant state of anxiety,

12:39

because that was just the

12:41

environment that I grew up in. I

12:41

didn't even know that until I

12:45

got older and started to

12:45

meditate and do other practices.

12:51

So if you've got that kind of

12:51

ongoing anxiety, that's your

12:55

kind of resting place therapy

12:55

can really help with that,

12:57

because it's come from

12:57

somewhere. And in therapy, you

13:01

can really explore where does it

13:01

come from, but also not only

13:03

explore, but also heal and

13:03

defuse the parts that are

13:08

holding that.

13:09

I feel the

13:09

liquid since the beginning of

13:12

the interview, everyone's a bit

13:12

of a snowflake, we all have our

13:16

own individual makeup of how

13:16

this is showing up for us. And I

13:20

used to have panic attacks. And

13:20

what got rid of them for me was

13:25

swimming butterfly on swim team,

13:25

because there's nothing else you

13:29

can do. But just try that swim

13:29

butterfly, and survive and focus

13:33

on the bad stuff. And doing hot

13:33

yoga. So these like really

13:37

strenuous distracting exercises

13:37

in groups with music, work for

13:43

me. And I'm curious if you if

13:43

you have any thoughts or

13:46

experience with preventative

13:46

things like exercise yoga,

13:50

meditation before an event

13:50

occurs?

13:53

Absolutely. I

13:53

mean, absolutely, that can be

13:55

helpful.

13:57

The next one I

13:57

like to ask is about difficult

14:00

conversations, we always have

14:00

those. And especially in the

14:05

current work environment, I've

14:05

found with with my consulting

14:09

work, when I go into either

14:09

government agencies or publicly

14:12

traded companies, throw walking

14:12

on thin ice, they're just so

14:17

afraid of saying the wrong

14:17

thing. And then they're going to

14:23

get the call to HR, there's

14:23

going to be a complaint to so

14:26

many people are like playing it

14:26

safe. But things really aren't.

14:32

I think being said, that needs

14:32

to be said. And I think that

14:37

creates a difficult conversation

14:37

when it didn't need to be a

14:41

difficult conversation. So I

14:41

think what I'm really asking is,

14:45

how do you create a level of

14:45

vulnerability and trust and

14:49

psychological safety where you

14:49

can say what needs to be said

14:54

and not worry that you're going

14:54

to get in trouble for maybe not

14:59

using the correct Words are, you

14:59

know, the pronouns got messed

15:02

up, he had no ill intent. But

15:02

with all the hyper judgment that

15:06

some people feel how can we get

15:06

that psychological safety to

15:10

have real conversations? Any

15:10

thoughts on that?

15:15

I mean, that's

15:15

a that's a work culture issue,

15:18

isn't it? And it's a in my view,

15:18

that would be a leadership and

15:24

work culture thing. Because if

15:24

the company has this culture of

15:30

criticism and complaints, and

15:30

people are feeling more and more

15:35

restricted, and its limit, I

15:35

mean, we know that that limits

15:38

creativity, and the expression

15:38

of free flow of ideas and

15:43

creative energy. So it's really

15:43

detrimental in my understanding

15:47

to businesses, and it often will

15:47

mirror leaders, by default will

15:52

often mirror the kinds of what's

15:52

the word when you're like

15:59

telling off your kids?

16:02

Or like when you're disciplining your kids, that's it,

16:05

that's it,

16:05

people by default, will just

16:08

kind of do what they learn in

16:08

their family system. And so

16:12

unless they've really spent time

16:12

thinking about is that how I

16:15

want to discipline, and they

16:15

might not be smacking their

16:19

employees, because we're not

16:19

allowed to do that. But you can

16:23

be smacked in other ways. You

16:23

can smack somebody with the tone

16:28

of your voice with the you know,

16:28

don't, that was just such a

16:32

ridiculous idea. And if I room

16:32

full of people who say that,

16:36

then everyone learns from that,

16:36

I need to really think through

16:40

my ideas, I need to really back

16:40

them up before I can present

16:43

them in a safe way.

16:44

And I think

16:44

like the way to pitch it to

16:46

leadership will be to say, if

16:46

you keep a cultural environment

16:50

like this, you were decreasing

16:50

your competitive advantage,

16:54

because you don't have a

16:54

competitive edge. If you can't

16:58

be innovative and come up with

16:58

interesting ideas. If people are

17:02

afraid to share the ideas,

17:02

you're just gonna get a lot of

17:06

mediocrity. And you're not to

17:06

have this anymore. Yeah,

17:12

yeah. I mean, I

17:12

think I read the other day. That

17:14

is it. Google asked some of the

17:14

really senior leaders to go to

17:19

Burning Man in the desert.

17:21

Oh, I want to

17:21

go to Burning Man. I didn't know

17:23

they did it. That's, that's

17:23

pretty cool.

17:27

Google or

17:27

follow, but one of the really

17:29

big tech companies bringing on a

17:29

new CEO, and before they took

17:33

him on instead, okay, part of

17:33

the, I guess the interview

17:37

process was they took him to

17:37

Burning Man. And I thought, wow,

17:40

how interesting as a, as a, as

17:40

an, as an experience, something

17:45

to look to go into together. I

17:45

mean, I've never been, but I've

17:49

heard with the desert. It's

17:49

quite quite an intense

17:52

experience in lots of different

17:52

ways, and so much creativity and

17:57

being amongst lots of different

17:57

kinds of people.

18:01

Yeah, it

18:01

sounds, it's on my bucket list.

18:04

It's on my bucket list. And, you

18:04

know, one of my favorite things

18:07

in the world is to have a great

18:07

conversation, which is what

18:10

we've been having now. And I

18:10

see, the time always flies, but

18:13

I'm having a good chat. So I

18:13

just want to finish up with a

18:16

question that isn't for me, but

18:16

it's for one of my students, so

18:20

I won't share the name. And

18:20

doesn't matter. But before I met

18:25

her, I got an email from

18:25

administration saying that this

18:28

student has an exemption from

18:28

public speaking. Because she's

18:34

amazing. She would be an amazing

18:34

public speaker, I think it's

18:37

gonna hold her back

18:37

professionally. If she sort of

18:40

holds on to this at a rendering,

18:40

what would you do for someone

18:43

who was extroverted and a leader

18:43

and outgoing and everything was

18:47

great. And something happened

18:47

later in life that shut them

18:50

down, and it's showing up and

18:50

not public speaking? How would

18:54

you address that? Yeah.

18:58

I so resonate

18:58

with that example. I do heaps of

19:01

social media videos now. But

19:01

when I did my first video, which

19:05

I had to do for work way back, I

19:05

cried. After I did the video.

19:10

And I recorded it, I watched

19:10

myself and I just burst into

19:13

tears. It was so terrifying for

19:13

me. So I actually really

19:16

resonate with this. And I've

19:16

done heaps of healing work

19:22

around this particular thing.

19:22

Bullying is absolutely a trauma

19:26

right is really traumatic when

19:26

that happens. I've worked with

19:30

bullying quite a bit in my

19:30

practice. And how we how I

19:35

usually work with it is one of

19:35

two ways but let's talk about

19:39

the internal family systems way.

19:39

So there are parts that really

19:42

remember that experience. And a

19:42

holding the words that were said

19:46

the way that it was said, just

19:46

the trauma of it and the way

19:50

that it impacted and what we can

19:50

do in therapy is go back into

19:54

some of those times where kind

19:54

of one foots there and one foots

19:58

here depending on how traumatic

19:58

the situation To notice, if we

20:01

ever go back to something that's

20:01

incredibly, really, really

20:04

traumatic, we'll come straight

20:04

out of it and do the work kind

20:08

of in present time. But

20:08

generally speaking will be a

20:10

little bit there and a little

20:10

bit here. Another way to think

20:14

about it is is like a locked in

20:14

your network. That's how they

20:16

think about it in EMDR. And it's

20:16

unable to meet with what's

20:20

called adaptive memory. So

20:20

memories of being liked and

20:24

memories of having lovely things

20:24

said about you. So those parts

20:27

can be thought of as the sort of

20:27

locked tight neural networks.

20:30

And what we do in the healing

20:30

process is we bring that and

20:34

it's a it's a 14 year old, can

20:34

we bring that 14 year old path

20:37

forward, and we really get to

20:37

know it from a place of

20:41

unconditional love and empathy?

20:41

Is it there's a great

20:46

practitioner who says, you know,

20:46

trauma is a lack of love, and

20:51

laugh helps to heal the trauma.

20:51

So we're really getting to know

20:56

that part holding that part. And

20:56

we give that part a really

20:59

different experience, which is

20:59

in therapy, we call it a

21:02

corrective experience and

21:02

missing experience. And that can

21:05

take quite a while that process

21:05

of really witnessing what that

21:08

person went through. Often

21:08

nobody really knows what that

21:12

person went through. Sometimes

21:12

we've shared it with our

21:14

parents, but it might just sound

21:14

like I'm being bullied. They

21:17

don't know the words that were

21:17

said they don't know the impact,

21:20

they didn't know that you were

21:20

hiding in the toilet during the

21:23

break time. They don't know that

21:23

you're being spat out, or

21:26

whatever was going on, right?

21:26

Often, there's so much shame

21:29

LinkedIn without we haven't been

21:29

able to tell another person. So

21:32

even just sharing it with

21:32

another human being can be

21:37

deeply healing. And for that

21:37

part, to be held by you to be

21:40

held by the therapist is deeply

21:40

deeply healing. I think Brene

21:45

Brown says that shame is healed

21:45

when it's shared in safe places.

21:50

So there's several different

21:50

things that are going on in

21:53

space. So different experiences,

21:53

more adaptive memories kind of

21:58

bought into that experience. And

21:58

then we go through a process of

22:01

it's called unburdening, but

22:01

letting go of some of those

22:04

really heavy, intense feelings

22:04

that are sitting in the body,

22:08

softer more link in somatically.

22:08

So, you know, where is that

22:11

shame setting people know

22:11

straightaway, oh, it's in my

22:15

solar plexus, right in the

22:15

middle of above my stomach, like

22:18

aching. And then there's a

22:18

process where they get to

22:21

release that kind of

22:21

energetically, very powerful to

22:25

very powerful process. And part

22:25

of what I was using where I was

22:29

working with my public speaking,

22:29

wow,

22:31

thank you,

22:31

Jennifer. We've, we've got over

22:34

time, because I just love to

22:34

talk. I love hearing your

22:37

answers. This has been

22:37

wonderful. I want to thank you

22:40

for your time today. And I hope

22:40

the people in our listening

22:45

audience, go out and buy your

22:45

book. It sounds like it's really

22:48

interesting. It's called heal

22:48

your anxious attachment by

22:52

Jennifer Nurik. And, Jennifer,

22:52

where's it available? Where can

22:56

people get up?

22:57

All over all

22:57

major bookstores. Amazon topia

23:01

is a distributor in Australia.

23:01

And the book is really about

23:04

when the anxious attachment

23:04

shows up in your personal

23:07

relationships or in your

23:07

intimate relationship and

23:10

there's a step by step process

23:10

around how to work with

23:13

that. Okay,

23:13

beautiful. Well, thank you for

23:16

coming today. And we hope to

23:16

have you back soon. Thank you.

23:20

Bye, everybody.

23:22

Bye.

23:25

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23:25

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