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Welcome to the History of Cyprus podcast,

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the birthplace of Aphrodite, the legendary goddess

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1:14

Hello everyone and welcome to the History

1:17

of Byzantium, episode 273,

1:21

Rome and Persia, the

1:24

700-year rivalry with Adrian Goldsworthy.

1:30

Today I interview historian Adrian

1:32

Goldsworthy about his new book and before

1:35

you ask, yes, we talk all

1:37

about Heraclius and the final war

1:39

with the Persians. Stay tuned

1:41

for some brilliant insights into that ever

1:44

fascinating topic. For

1:46

those of you who don't know, Dr. Goldsworthy

1:48

is an award-winning historian of the classical

1:51

world. He's written a dozen

1:53

books on Greco-Roman topics including

1:55

biographies of Julius Caesar, Augustus,

1:58

as well as studies of the Roman army.

1:59

army and the Empire's rise and fall.

2:02

So if you like what you hear today, there is a small

2:05

library of gold's worthy goodness waiting

2:07

for you to read.

2:08

And if you prefer to listen, you

2:10

can get his latest book on audible.com.

2:13

Go to audibletrial.com forward slash

2:16

Byzantium to listen for free.

2:18

More on that at the end of the interview. His

2:22

latest book is about the 700 year

2:24

long rivalry between Rome and

2:26

the Parthians and then the Sassanids. 700

2:29

years. It just doesn't,

2:31

it doesn't sound right, does it? He

2:34

covers everything from Crassus

2:36

having gold poured down his throat to

2:39

Trajan's triumphs and Julian's

2:42

death all the way down to Heraclius

2:44

recovering the true cross and of

2:46

course everything in between. The

2:49

book is already out in the UK with

2:51

the title, The Eagle and the Lion, but

2:54

it will be out in the USA on

2:56

the 12th of September, 2023

2:59

under the title,

3:00

Roman Persia,

3:02

the 700 year rivalry. Here's

3:04

the interview.

3:06

Dr. Adrian Goldsworthy, welcome to the History

3:09

of Byzantium podcast. Well, thank you for having

3:11

me. Thank you so much for coming on

3:13

the show. It's a great pleasure to talk

3:15

to you. I've been following

3:18

your books for a long time and

3:22

listeners may already know that, you know, you've covered

3:25

the Roman army and you've covered the careers of Caesar

3:27

and Augustus in great detail. So

3:30

it's not hard to imagine why the wars with

3:32

Persia would interest you,

3:34

but can you tell us what inspired you to

3:36

cover the entire 700 year

3:38

rivalry in one book?

3:40

Well, it's a slightly odd story because

3:42

the publishers actually approached me and said, would

3:44

you write a book on the

3:46

last generation or so? So very much the seventh

3:48

century AD and that dramatic change.

3:51

And I sat down to think about that over the course of the weekend.

3:54

Well, really, you can't understand that unless you've

3:56

looked at the sixth century before

3:59

it. And then you can't really understand understand the sixth century

4:01

unless you've looked at the fifth. And it

4:03

came to me that really we need to tell the whole

4:06

story. You know, Parthia

4:09

and the Sennium Persia, they are the same

4:11

empire. They are two different dynasties and there are some

4:13

organizations and obviously it's a long, long period of

4:15

time. But as far as the Romans are

4:17

concerned,

4:19

you're dealing with this great power to the east,

4:22

pretty much all the way through history from the first century BC

4:24

onwards. And the more I thought, I couldn't

4:26

think though, there isn't really any study

4:29

that looks at relations between the two from

4:31

the start right to the very end. There

4:33

are lots of marvelous stuff, particular

4:36

periods, particular things. And we do

4:38

compartmentalize things so much as historians

4:40

and especially within the academic world, even

4:42

when you're teaching courses for students, you know, you

4:44

start, it's almost as if there's this cliff edge

4:47

between the, the

4:49

principate and then late antiquity and

4:51

then later Byzantine history.

4:53

And they sort of sudden abrupt as if there's

4:56

nothing, you know, you're not starting from something,

4:58

it's a completely clean slate. And

5:00

actually it is, everything makes

5:02

far more sense when you

5:03

look at this long perspective and

5:06

the changes seem that much more dramatic

5:08

when they do occur. And the, you

5:10

know, the, the violence and the, the, the,

5:13

the ambition in that last big war

5:15

is striking because it hasn't been there before.

5:18

So I just,

5:20

it grew to the point where I went back and said,

5:22

no, actually, this is the story I want to tell because

5:25

nobody's done it and it's really important. And

5:27

it brings you on to the Parthians

5:29

and the Persians and this world

5:31

we don't know so much. And even if we can't

5:34

talk about them in the same detail as we can with

5:36

the Greeks and Romans, nevertheless, there's

5:38

more we can do. And

5:40

at the very least you can ask the questions,

5:42

even if you can't get good answers for,

5:44

you know, how does it seem from their point of view? What's

5:47

their perspective? Why? So

5:49

it's very much the story of the relationship.

5:51

And it,

5:53

if you take a long perspective, it's surprising how much

5:55

peace and stability there is between these two, both

5:58

aggressive expansionist empires.

5:59

So that with every book I've written, things

6:02

have surprised me as I've gone along.

6:03

And this one, I think even more so, it just

6:06

it was

6:07

it wasn't what I was expecting.

6:09

And and that makes it more exciting

6:11

to write and hopefully more exciting to read.

6:14

That's interesting. And because I want to talk

6:16

about that that late period later on. But

6:19

what did you find the

6:21

most unexpected

6:23

in that period? Because you would have covered

6:26

Caesar's plans and Augustus's peace with the Parthians

6:28

in great detail. So in that between that

6:30

and Heraclius, what sort of struck you as? Well, it's

6:33

some of the the oddest things is when you

6:35

actually sit down and think about it and you realize

6:37

that

6:38

the only land battle discussed

6:40

in any detail is

6:43

Cai. And that's in Plutarch

6:45

and Diode and Bits and Bobs from elsewhere. Then

6:47

the next description of equivalent

6:50

detail of a field battle is Procopius. Yeah.

6:52

And then nothing. It's

6:55

you've got little bits and you've got all this information.

6:57

So we we know there's lots of wars. We

7:00

know there's loads of battles. We've got

7:03

for Ammianus, you get detail of sieges,

7:05

which you've never had before. And that level.

7:07

And then you get some of that with Procopius as well.

7:10

And, you know, overall, probably Procopius

7:12

is the most detailed source you've ever get for

7:15

relations between the two powers.

7:18

And yet you've got seven hundred years

7:20

of history. We know these big events are going on. They

7:22

mentioned the things that happen. So

7:25

we generalize from some very

7:28

small little incidents

7:30

and partial descriptions of those

7:33

so that it struck me that what we think of is how

7:35

the Parthians and Romans fight isn't really

7:38

based on very much. And that

7:40

if you look at the things each side actually does,

7:42

you know, the standard conventional

7:44

wisdom is that it's the Sanian Persians who

7:46

develop effective siegecraft and they

7:48

seem to appear in the third century as if by magic.

7:51

But in the past, the Parthians have taken cities.

7:53

So how have they done that? And how

7:56

much is evolution rather than sudden revolution?

8:00

the convenience of for late Romanists,

8:03

the reason for them that the the empire

8:05

has to reform so much that you get the tetrarchy,

8:08

you get this militarization, you get the

8:11

different, very different system, very

8:13

different political culture of

8:16

late third and into the fourth centuries is because

8:18

the Sassanian Persians appear along with a load of Germans

8:20

beyond the Rhine and Danube that are suddenly

8:22

more threatening.

8:24

But actually the longer perspective, what's

8:27

the change that there's very little difference. It's

8:29

just you're a lot weaker because you're busy fighting civil wars

8:32

and you're doing things differently. So

8:36

everything, even many of the assumptions,

8:38

you know, there's been a big debate in

8:41

Roman history about what

8:43

the Roman frontiers are for. Are they

8:45

primarily defensive to protect the provinces

8:48

or are is the empire and the emperor

8:50

still obsessed with Imperium

8:52

Cinefina, you know, empire power without limit,

8:55

constant expansion. And

8:57

then you look at the first century AD and OK,

8:59

the Romans and Parthians do fight each other.

9:02

There's some small scale stuff under Augustus early

9:04

on in Tiberius. You've got the the war in Armenia

9:06

and De Niro and then little

9:09

bits, but otherwise there's a hundred years. Even

9:11

those wars are incredibly limited. The

9:13

Armenian war goes on for a decade, but it's very

9:15

focused geographically

9:17

and it's very limited objectives and it's primarily

9:20

each side supporting allies in

9:22

an Armenian civil war.

9:25

There's no serious attempt, even when you look at Crassus

9:28

or Antony, there aren't serious attempts to conquer

9:31

huge swathes of territory ever, which

9:34

throws this whole debate as to the Romans

9:36

as sort of fundamentally aggressive

9:38

into

9:39

a completely different light. Because when you look at

9:42

what they're actually doing, rather than what the poets choose

9:44

to say now and again,

9:46

it's far more practical. It's far more.

9:48

They're very cautious

9:50

and lots of opportunities for conflict

9:52

aren't followed. So you have the first century is remarkably

9:55

quiet, even the second century, big wars, Trajan,

9:58

Lucius Verus, Septimius Severus.

10:01

If you're generous, that's maybe 10 years out of 100. And

10:05

the rest of the time they're at peace, possibly

10:07

nervous piece at times, but it's you

10:10

sort of have a sense of pattern it's more like

10:14

17th, 18th and

10:16

19th and even early 20th century Europe,

10:18

the, the wars between France and

10:22

Spain at various times, Prussia,

10:24

Germany, that occur in the same

10:26

areas again and again and have short

10:28

term advantage but no real you're never fighting

10:31

to destroy the other side.

10:33

Again, I think it's it's it's because

10:35

perhaps the 20th century and the world wars of influence

10:38

us into this idea that you fight a war until

10:40

you utterly defeat the enemy

10:42

that human history isn't really like that. The

10:45

Parthians the Persians the Romans can absorb

10:47

much smaller neighbors sometimes, but

10:50

anybody bigger. You don't have

10:52

the capacity but also the will you're not trying

10:54

to

10:55

do an Alexander the great and just

10:57

charge around and change the whole world so it's

11:00

that long term perspective

11:03

just puts everything into a very different

11:05

light. And it's, as I say,

11:08

I looked at so many of these periods in detail,

11:10

and come with the assumptions that all we have is major

11:12

tension all the time there's always a threat, the Romans

11:15

would love to go and conquer large parts of part

11:19

of Persia, the parties of persons themselves

11:21

genuinely want to get Syria, get back

11:23

to sort of the old Achaemenid Empire.

11:26

They might you know might have been a nice pipe dream

11:28

that they each people had but they never

11:31

really make this serious effort

11:33

to do that.

11:34

So the rivalry is very cautious

11:37

it's very sort of self imposed limits

11:40

on the wars you fight so you fight often but you're not

11:42

really expecting too much from it.

11:45

That means all the wars you

11:47

just then start to look at in a very different way.

11:50

Yeah, you get the sense that

11:52

the long periods both employees are quite happy with

11:54

the status quo.

11:57

I don't want to go on too much of a tangent but

11:59

that is fast.

11:59

fascinating about the lack of accounts

12:02

of campaigns. Do

12:04

you do you get the sense

12:06

that's because

12:08

obviously I want to ask you later about why we don't

12:10

have Persian accounts, but I suppose

12:12

for Roman historians, if you're unless you're

12:14

living on

12:15

the eastern border or you're posted there like

12:17

Procopius,

12:18

you're unlikely to run into soldiers. You

12:21

can ask, oh,

12:22

what happened? It's not so much that I

12:24

mean, there was a lot. And obviously you've got

12:26

Lucian satire about all the different

12:28

accounts written of Lucian various operations

12:31

and how ridiculous and over the top they were. But

12:33

that also implies there were some that

12:35

these ones are funny, means that there were some more

12:37

sober versions. But it's I

12:39

mean, Britain, obviously it's northern fringes of

12:41

the empire. But having written on Hadrian's Wall,

12:44

where you're dealing with about half a dozen mentions

12:46

of this structure in all Greco-Roman literature,

12:49

including Bede, it's

12:52

and something as big as that, and

12:54

they never bother to tell us what they're doing. It's

12:57

it's that reminder of just how much we've lost.

12:59

Yes, there's always the element as well

13:01

of the things they don't bother to tell you because they just

13:03

assumed everybody knew. And

13:06

you can see that if you know, it seizes commentaries.

13:09

But when you think there's nothing as detailed

13:11

as that for an account of campaigning

13:14

for the army of the Prince of the Bate, Josephus

13:17

is the closest and he's dealing with the war

13:19

of sieges. So it's it's not quite

13:21

the same as you see the Roman army doing some

13:23

things. And it's great that we've got that detail,

13:26

but we've got all this archaeological

13:28

evidence. We know there's this huge institution, there's

13:30

very organized, sophisticated

13:33

army.

13:34

And we've just got to guess that it works in a

13:36

similar way to Caesar's men. And

13:38

then the, you know, when you think you have

13:41

so little of Ammianus has survived,

13:44

most is lost and he started in 96. So

13:48

obviously, the earlier centuries weren't described in as

13:50

much detail. But when

13:52

you come back to Lucian, he's writes this satire

13:55

mocking ridiculous histories.

13:57

But scholars are so desperate we try and use

13:59

it.

13:59

to plot the campaigns because there

14:02

is nothing. And yet this is a campaign led by one

14:04

of the two emperors that is much trumpeted

14:07

at the time, greatly celebrated. And

14:10

it's that, so it's that chance of

14:12

survival

14:14

that means that there is so much

14:16

we're guessing.

14:17

And then the

14:20

archeological element where, yes, you

14:22

can plot

14:23

bases, forts, look at their fortifications,

14:25

look at their size, but only a small

14:27

number will have been excavated to any real extent.

14:30

And even then dating things, you know, you'll

14:33

say late Flavian or Trajanic

14:35

or something, but in terms of trying

14:37

to understand a campaign, that means

14:39

very little. You know it's there, but

14:41

why it's there, what the people there are doing, why

14:44

they're there, it's

14:48

just left a conjecture, largely. We can sort of suggest

14:50

things, but it's a wide, wide range of possibilities.

14:53

Yeah. So from having spent

14:56

most of my adult life studying the Roman army,

14:59

like most people who work on anything, you feel

15:01

you're knowing less and less as you go on and

15:03

discover, because you realize all the bits that are missing.

15:06

Yes,

15:07

absolutely. Well, let's

15:09

switch from the Romans to the Parthian

15:12

Sassanids because I think

15:15

listeners of this podcast will be pretty

15:17

familiar with the outline of the rivalry, but

15:19

like me, I think they will have

15:22

a real gap in their knowledge of how

15:24

the

15:25

Parthian and Sassanids state

15:27

operated. So could you tell the listeners

15:29

a little bit about how the government

15:32

ran and how it was different from

15:34

Roman rule?

15:35

It's

15:36

different in several ways. I mean, we've obviously got to say

15:38

the caveat at the start that

15:41

yes, there are problems and gaps and things we don't know

15:43

about the Romans, about the Byzantines later on, but

15:45

by comparison, there's even less

15:48

that we can say with absolute confidence

15:50

because they do not leave. There is no

15:52

substantial surviving

15:55

Parthian literary tradition telling a story

15:57

from that point of view. You get the

15:59

odd interesting. little thing where Josephus has this

16:02

sort of digression about Babylonian Jews

16:04

who become bandits who then become recognized

16:06

as governors under the Parthian King

16:08

of Kings. But

16:11

that's he's telling you it because it's the Jewish community

16:13

and they do know something about what's going on. But

16:16

otherwise, with the Sassanians, there

16:18

is more traces of a tradition,

16:20

you've got the great inscriptions of Shappa the

16:23

first and some other monuments, you've got

16:26

a

16:27

later tradition that survives into medieval

16:29

literature

16:31

that preserves memories, though heavily

16:33

romanticized. And

16:35

that's interesting how they rather distort the record

16:38

to play down the 400 years of Parthian rule

16:40

into about half the time. So

16:43

that's the start. We've got to be careful with we're

16:45

guessing with a lot of things.

16:47

And then you've also got the the nature.

16:49

This is an empire that's heartland is

16:51

modern day around Iraq, stretching

16:54

into Afghanistan, parts of Syria, sort

16:56

of Caspian Sea, Black Sea area and

16:58

to the south down to the Gulf.

17:01

Compared to the Roman Empire, that

17:03

is

17:04

very much a world of cities and

17:06

that tradition of the city state, it's the way

17:08

the Romans and of course, particularly

17:10

the Byzantines, because they have the

17:13

even more the

17:16

area that has an even deeper tradition of that

17:18

sort of organized city civilization compared

17:21

to some of the Western provinces where it's largely an introduction

17:24

of Roman rule. And they

17:26

have this sense of,

17:29

you know, you have not far from

17:31

where I live, you've got Ventus

17:33

I, Lorum, the Civitas capital of

17:35

the Silores tribe that's built by the Romans

17:37

and by Greco-Roman standards, it's a relatively

17:39

small city size, but it it shows

17:42

how Roman government could only comfortably

17:44

interact with a city and a council

17:47

and those institutions that it understands.

17:49

So you get the locals to build one. And

17:51

of course, from their point of view, it makes them more politically

17:53

significant and influential, but it's it's

17:56

imposing something.

17:58

There are areas like that.

17:59

within the Parthian and Persian

18:02

empires. And obviously you have cities

18:04

like Seleucid or on the Tigris that its heyday

18:07

probably rivals Antioch and Alexandria in

18:09

size. And you have,

18:11

because you've had Alexander briefly

18:14

and then the Seleucid's there for so long,

18:16

you've got this tradition of a Greek

18:18

city with Greek laws, whatever

18:21

ethnically the people are culturally,

18:23

this is Greek. You

18:25

have

18:27

Parthian foundations nearby that

18:29

are

18:30

deliberately less Greek in law, but nevertheless,

18:32

it's still the city idea

18:34

that's there. And of course you have the traditional, the

18:37

Babylonians and people like that. You have cities whose

18:41

self-identity predates any

18:43

Greek influence and indeed any Achaemenid

18:45

Persian influence and goes back and they are still,

18:48

the temple cults are going for a very long time.

18:50

So you've got areas that are quite like the

18:53

Roman empire.

18:54

And there is always this question about the

18:56

division between the two empires really cuts

18:58

across

18:59

the old Seleucid empire, which in a sense could

19:01

be seen as a whole, a

19:03

coherent. And it's slightly surprising

19:05

that one or the other empire doesn't control

19:08

all of this

19:09

instead of always remaining. But then you

19:11

move into central Iran and areas like

19:13

that where there isn't this urban tradition. It's

19:16

very different. So one

19:18

thing to remember is the, both the Parthian

19:20

and the Sanyam Persian kings, they are the

19:23

title is King of Kings.

19:25

This is a

19:26

kingdom of other kingdoms.

19:29

So you have quite large

19:31

regional powers. And obviously at times,

19:33

depending on influence, these will include Armenia,

19:35

but more often Medea and others where it's

19:39

more consistently.

19:41

You could feel part of the Parthian Persian

19:43

empire, but within those

19:45

kingdoms, you have lesser kings

19:47

as well. And that seems to be the roots

19:50

of the Sasanian family of Adashir

19:52

when he takes over that he sort of works his way up

19:55

stage by stage, going sort of local

19:57

king, regional king, challenging the King

19:59

of Kings. So it is a very,

20:02

it's a huge empire. It doesn't have

20:04

the sea in the middle, which

20:06

is obviously characteristic, particularly of the United

20:09

Roman Empire, but even of course, for the Byzantines,

20:11

while they've still got those provinces, you

20:14

have this relatively fast

20:16

communication, at least at certain times of year in

20:18

certain conditions that links them, instead

20:21

of

20:22

mountain ranges that sometimes have passes

20:24

that don't necessarily go in the way you want them to go, areas

20:27

of step, areas of semi-desert,

20:30

areas that are very well irrigated and well. So

20:34

it's a mixture and it

20:36

takes much longer to get from one end of

20:39

the Persian Empire to the other,

20:42

even though it's not physically as big

20:44

as the Roman Empire, just because of

20:46

the nature of the landscape and the

20:48

speed of travel. But it's,

20:50

so you have the

20:52

King of Kings, you also within

20:54

the kingdoms, particularly in the heartland

20:58

of Morta the East, so

21:00

away from the Roman Empire, not the more

21:03

Hellenized areas are closer

21:05

to Syria and the Roman Empire,

21:08

but you have the great noble families,

21:10

the great clans like the Surin, the Miran,

21:13

Miran, sorry, the Karen, and

21:15

these appear, they seem

21:17

to have been founded by,

21:19

it's tempting to call them Parthians, but you're

21:21

never quite sure whether

21:23

all these people are ethnically Parthians of this

21:25

group that's moved into the North of

21:27

the Seleucid Empire and taken

21:30

over a province and gone from there, or are they locals,

21:33

leaders who decide to

21:35

ally with this, this group and then become

21:37

part of it, but they speak the Parthian language,

21:39

which again is not the one that Nomads have brought

21:41

in with them, it's one from the North. They

21:44

have a form

21:46

of Zoroastrianism that is particularly

21:48

Parthian more than the style that will be

21:50

dominant but not exclusive with the Seleucians.

21:54

And these people, the man who defeats

21:57

Crassus at Karha in 53 BC

21:59

Sauron, the head of the clan. We

22:02

don't know his individual name. He's subsequently

22:04

executed by the King of Kings for being

22:07

too ambitious, too powerful, too successful.

22:10

And that's the problem. You

22:12

have

22:15

a tradition of the King of Kings

22:18

has a number of wives,

22:21

as well as the larger harem, many

22:24

of whom are daughters of the noble

22:26

families, daughters of the petty kings. And it seems

22:28

to be that if you

22:30

could get recognition or if the King of Kings chose

22:32

to, that the child of any of these could become

22:35

the favored heir. So

22:36

there are usually lots of heirs around, which

22:39

means that although each family,

22:42

quite impressively, both the Assasid Parthians

22:45

and the Sassanian Persians, they managed

22:47

to exclude everybody who's not of their blood

22:49

from a claim to be King of Kings. Nevertheless,

22:52

they have the problem that lots of there's

22:54

usually lots of siblings around and other lines of

22:56

the family. And you notice

22:59

both with the Parthian kings and

23:01

the Persian kings, they will very often have brothers

23:03

or half brothers as kings

23:05

of the larger regions. And

23:08

to some extent, that means they're a useful ally,

23:10

but they're also a potential rival.

23:12

So it's a balancing act all the

23:14

time. I mean, the Emperor Tiberius talks about

23:16

ruling the Roman Empire is holding the wolf by the ears.

23:20

The problems are different, but the precariousness

23:22

of the situation is similar for

23:25

the Parthians of the Persians, because again, a rebellion

23:27

can happen at one extreme of the Empire.

23:29

And it can take a long time before you've got the strength

23:31

to deal with it. And your army,

23:34

to a great extent, relies upon the contingents

23:36

provided by the

23:38

kings, the lesser kings, the clan

23:41

leaders. You know, you have the tradition

23:43

of the

23:47

Soren, the Miran, the Karad. They go right

23:49

the way through, even though they are essentially associated

23:51

with the Parthians.

23:52

Most of these families change sides to the

23:54

Sassanians, and then they're

23:57

right the way through. And different

23:59

The Americans rise and fall, but they

24:02

keep providing many of the generals many

24:04

of the senior ministers, right the

24:06

way through, and we can tell from

24:08

surviving clay seals from

24:11

official documents that have survived,

24:13

they are still using the pathian language and they are still

24:15

using the titles, and some of them will actually go on after

24:17

the same in Persia has fallen they will continue

24:19

under the Arab caliphate

24:21

for generations. So,

24:24

you've got these regional powers that

24:26

are mostly loyal and

24:29

mostly will obey but you can't be sure

24:31

of them. And you have the problem that

24:33

there is nearly always at

24:36

least one and often several other potential

24:38

kings of kings around.

24:40

This is the pattern you have,

24:43

particularly under Augustus but at later times

24:45

as well. Princes from Parthia

24:48

are sent to go and live in Rome, and

24:51

hostage is probably the wrong word but they are the

24:53

Romans back several men who go back

24:55

trying to become to Rome and one of them succeed in the long

24:58

term but while there's a tendency

25:00

to say well that's because they've become too westernized

25:02

and the the locals just don't respect them they can't.

25:06

They also can't understand the politics they haven't lived it

25:08

to know the relationships between the families

25:10

the balance of power that the gestures you

25:12

have to do not to upset anybody. And

25:16

the leader says you know he's criticized because he doesn't like hunting anymore.

25:19

Doesn't like feasting in the path in style he's become

25:21

too Roman, and that's probably true but

25:23

we should also remember plenty of homegrown

25:26

noblemen and princes fail dismally when they

25:28

try to become king of kings do not last

25:30

that very long it's rather like

25:32

Roman civil wars, you get strong

25:35

rulers who are keep stability

25:37

for a long time. Then there are

25:39

periods where somebody gets murdered

25:41

there's weakness and often you have a very rapid turnover,

25:44

and a period of a decade or so of

25:46

civil war, before another strong

25:48

man appears who manages to frighten

25:52

placate and convince enough people

25:54

that it's better to keep him around the rebel.

25:57

So, it's.

25:59

similar, there's a lot of similarities with the Roman

26:02

Empire, but there are also profound differences in the way

26:04

it works. Although

26:06

there are some things we don't understand, you know, you have

26:08

the rise with

26:10

the Persians clearly

26:12

from the frontier defenses that have been excavated

26:15

and studied now near the Caspian

26:17

Sea,

26:18

there must be large numbers of pretty

26:20

much professional troops to garrison these,

26:23

but we don't quite know where these

26:25

come from when they develop. Again,

26:28

it's so difficult to understand the processes. Something

26:30

will suddenly appear when

26:33

the Romans notice it and it'll be talked about or

26:35

it'll appear in a relief or something like

26:38

that, but

26:39

we don't know much. So you've got

26:42

similar but different and overall,

26:46

although it's the Parthian Persian

26:48

Empire, it's not as big as the Roman

26:51

Empire, it's nowhere near as well populated

26:53

as the Roman Empire because of the nature of the land

26:56

and because of that, it's not as wealthy,

26:58

but it's still far,

27:01

far bigger than anyone else that's out

27:03

there with whom the Romans have contact

27:05

and both Parthians and Sassanians have some

27:07

contact with China, but even that's pretty

27:10

distant to the point where it's never a conflict

27:13

or serious rivalry, it's distant trade and

27:15

some political diplomatic contact. SL.

27:18

That's

27:18

brilliant, thank you. Do

27:21

shoot this down if

27:23

it's completely inaccurate, because

27:26

I'm just thinking about the Romans, certainly

27:28

in certain periods have a much more

27:30

meritocratic

27:34

process by which men rise up through

27:37

the bureaucracy and the army and obviously a

27:39

very sort of legal based and

27:42

you are a general, it has nothing to do

27:44

with where you come from. R.E.R.A.R.A.N.I.N culture

27:46

in those empires sounds a bit more

27:48

like

27:50

Western Europe, as it would develop in the Middle

27:52

Ages, a sort of a sense of family

27:55

and your house is

27:57

important and your nobility is something you want

27:59

to promote.

27:59

And so if there had been a Western Europe,

28:02

if Charlemagne had created a

28:04

Sasanian Empire, he would have had to manage

28:07

sort of noble houses from France and Germany

28:09

in that way.

28:11

Yes, I mean, there's a similarity

28:13

in older books. There was a great tendency

28:15

to describe the Parthians in particular as feudal,

28:18

and their military system is essentially that. And

28:21

I mean, the medievalists now get worked up

28:23

about the word feudal and whether or not you use it. But

28:27

there is that pattern of relationships that

28:29

again,

28:30

we sometimes forget though, that within the

28:32

Roman Empire at some periods, there is

28:34

a great reliance on allied kingdoms and

28:36

these dynasts that you appoint. And that's the

28:39

pattern, particularly the first century BC and into

28:41

much of the first century AD.

28:43

And one of the issues is just who

28:45

is, who's approving the

28:47

King of Armenia? But people

28:49

like Cleopatra, their whole career is

28:51

being a loyal Roman ally,

28:53

but they get painted because they end up on the wrong side in

28:55

civil wars. They end up get painted as an enemy, but

28:57

they never actually fight the Romans. They simply

28:59

they're staying in power for them, relies

29:02

on providing whoever is the dominant Roman at

29:04

the time with the money and resources

29:06

that they want.

29:07

And not really caring too much about your own kingdom,

29:10

it's simply survival. Because if you don't

29:12

do it, they'll find somebody else who will there again.

29:14

And many of these, the regimes

29:17

that develop and serve the kingdoms in these areas

29:19

don't seem to have particularly deep roots, particularly

29:22

in that sort of, you know, the

29:24

corsarene areas like that, even parts

29:27

of Medea, let alone Como gene, Cappadocia,

29:29

these sorts of areas, the Romans

29:32

chop and change, Dainaz. And you'll

29:34

get, you know, the Herod family spread around

29:36

over quite a wide area as they're chosen for very, oh,

29:38

you can have this bit. And in the end, most

29:40

of them don't last, but nevertheless. So

29:42

there's an element of that even within the Roman system,

29:44

but it is much more pronounced because

29:47

it's

29:47

a different tradition there.

29:50

And also there do seem to be these very

29:52

strong regional identities. Now, you

29:55

could argue that with the Cessanians,

29:57

there's more promotion than

29:59

that.

29:59

there seems to be a development of more of a bureaucracy.

30:02

But again, most of the evidence

30:04

for this comes quite late. It's fifth

30:06

century, sixth century onwards. And

30:09

there is a tendency for some scholars to

30:11

assume, well, along comes Adashir I, snaps

30:13

his fingers, and suddenly you have the Sasanian

30:15

Persian empire that it doesn't develop. And

30:18

also you have the famous

30:20

inscriptions by the

30:22

priest of Zoroaster, who sort of has almost

30:25

a parallel inscription to Sharpe's triumphs

30:27

of all the things he did and where he made you fire

30:29

temples in Roman territory and all this sort

30:31

of thing. Now, we

30:33

don't quite know how much that reflects the power

30:36

he really had, because you get the other

30:38

traditions whereby they're quite

30:40

indulgent of the Prophet Marni

30:42

and people like this at the same time.

30:45

There is perhaps slightly more

30:48

attempt at centralization and central

30:50

control. And it almost,

30:51

you know,

30:53

the genius of the Romans, or call it what you

30:55

will, was the, now, whereas America is

30:57

the great melting pot, Rome didn't

31:00

bring people to it. It went out to the world and made

31:02

them Romans, at least the elite and substantial

31:05

numbers beneath that as well, to

31:07

the extent where when the Western empire collapses,

31:09

nobody's saying, I want to be British, I want

31:11

to be Spanish.

31:12

They all want to be Roman. And, you know,

31:15

within the Eastern empire, for that long time, there's,

31:19

it's hard for people to imagine an alternative.

31:21

Civilization has become tied up with

31:24

being Roman.

31:25

And that's just reinforced as the church

31:27

develops as well. There is, so

31:30

the Romans do that,

31:32

but the Romans are very unusual in incorporating

31:34

people and making them Roman. And obviously, you know,

31:37

later on, some of the generals that rise

31:39

who, you know, will be described as a Sarmatian,

31:42

an Allen, a Frank, or whatever, but

31:44

to all intents and purposes, yes,

31:46

they might have fair hair, but they're Roman, they do

31:48

everything just as any Roman would. And

31:50

even, you know, you've had that early on,

31:53

back to Romulus and Remus, it's the story

31:55

your population comes from outside. You've had

31:57

this and you've

31:59

enfranchised.

31:59

your slaves and particularly their children from very

32:02

early on and made them Roman.

32:04

So there isn't the

32:06

identity is much more, it's

32:09

not ethnically based in any, it's

32:12

much more. So

32:14

it's harder to do that within the diversity

32:17

of the Parthian and Persian Empire.

32:20

And you notice as well that they have

32:22

the kings of kings tend to move around, and

32:25

they spend time in different capitals, but also

32:27

just possessing your own. Partly that's a climate

32:29

thing, you know, there are parts of the empire where it's

32:32

too hot to be in summer, it's too cold in winter, but it's

32:34

also

32:35

as emperors like Augustus will

32:37

do, as some of the later Western emperors

32:40

and Eastern one will do, it's the moving around to be available

32:43

to make your presence felt, to receive petitions.

32:46

But again, it's

32:47

easier to do in the Roman Empire than it is in

32:49

the East. And

32:53

it's hard to know whether the development of

32:55

a more centralized bureaucracy

32:58

under the latest Sasanian kings of kings

33:01

is simply a development, because

33:03

the regime has been there. And whether when

33:05

you get traces of this in the sources, is

33:08

this just a strong man who

33:10

is able to impose his will far

33:12

more effectively in the same way that say

33:14

a Diocletian can or a Constantine

33:18

or Justinian even.

33:21

But other weaker emperors or other weaker kings

33:23

of kings can't. So it's

33:25

depending on often we're looking at a time

33:28

most of the best sources for the Parthians come at

33:30

times of their civil wars.

33:32

So you shouldn't expect a king of kings to

33:34

be that powerful and that influential. So

33:38

it's,

33:39

it's again, it's always the problem. We're looking

33:42

from the outside, we're looking with all the misunderstandings

33:45

the Romans

33:46

bring. And then we have a little

33:48

bit of information from inside.

33:50

But I think it's

33:52

from a practical point of view, the Empire clearly works,

33:55

it's devised for such a long time, and it's successful.

33:57

And it's powerful. So

33:59

I think.

33:59

I think this almost

34:02

devolution of power seems

34:05

to work within that system. Yeah.

34:09

And do we have a sense

34:12

why they

34:13

didn't develop a tradition

34:16

of writing history? I mean, not that

34:18

that was not that most states did, but

34:20

or do we know of histories or any

34:23

kind of sense that things were lost? A

34:26

lot has been lost. It probably was never.

34:29

I mean, you have obviously you've got

34:32

cities like Seleucia, you've got the Hellenistic tradition.

34:35

So there's there is that tradition that is

34:37

unusual when the Greeks developed this idea of let's

34:39

write narrative history and

34:41

then the Romans take that on. But I mean, the Romans don't

34:44

really start that till end

34:46

of the third century, early second century

34:48

B.C. after the war with Hannibal. But

34:50

it's quite clear they've kept records before that.

34:53

And a lot of ancient states will keep their records,

34:56

their laws, their property, rituals,

34:58

this sort of thing. The Babylonians like

35:00

recording astronomical

35:03

observations and how

35:05

this relates to the calendar, to religion, to their

35:07

beliefs. So people are recording

35:09

things. And you have

35:12

several record. Roman authors claim

35:14

that when they tell you a story,

35:16

so some of the things about the origins of the

35:19

name Sassan, the House of Sassan, that

35:21

they have consulted Persian records

35:24

and others refer to Parthian records. So

35:27

they're official. This is what they say about themselves.

35:31

You suspect that in a lot of these areas, the

35:33

culture remains primarily oral. And

35:36

some of the later medieval tradition and figures

35:38

like Rustam and things like that, they're clearly

35:41

from that sort of epic poetry, that heroic poetry,

35:43

the same tradition that occasionally you'll get the

35:46

Homer who writes it all down, and it

35:48

gets written down eventually to crystallizes, but

35:50

that if it's left as a living

35:52

thing, it sort of, it evolves, it develops,

35:55

it adapts to, but it preserves elements

35:58

of earlier things.

35:59

argued that you can associate the character of Rustam

36:02

with the Surin and perhaps

36:04

even the Surina that defeats Krasas but lots

36:06

of other people as well get rolled into the hero.

36:09

So I think it's largely that and then

36:12

we have the, I mean the frustrating thing

36:14

is we have these collections of clay seals

36:17

from that reflect the Sasanian bureaucracy

36:19

so they have their address to a man,

36:22

his title, you know general of this area

36:25

but obviously those once were around

36:27

scrolls and documents that didn't

36:29

survive the fire, the clay gets baked so

36:31

we can just we get the seal but

36:33

all the rest of it's gone. So there was a huge

36:36

amount of written material

36:38

even if it was often bureaucratic or

36:40

letters instructions orders this sort of

36:42

thing. Again it was there probably

36:45

not quite to the same extent as

36:48

the amount there was in the Greco-Roman world

36:51

but a lot still but

36:53

it's gone. It's just

36:57

you know it's

36:59

that problem we have to face with so much

37:02

of human history but particularly the ancient world

37:04

anywhere really other than until comparatively

37:06

recently because of course you've got those few

37:08

Chinese records of contact with

37:11

the Parthians and the Sasanians but

37:14

even that's probably only a small part of what

37:16

was officially there and this is dealings with

37:18

a very distant fringe people and

37:21

it's interesting how they'd, as you'd expect

37:23

with any culture just as the Romans and Greeks misunderstand

37:25

what they see with the emphasis in the

37:28

Chinese sources and the Parthians as rice growers

37:31

because that's what you'd expect. What else would sit there? You're

37:33

acknowledging these people are fairly civilized, they're

37:36

organized so what else would you do? And

37:38

you know we're we've obviously always got to be on

37:40

the lookout for where the Romans are doing exactly

37:42

the same thing and just assuming well they're basically

37:44

like us

37:46

or just misunderstanding things.

37:49

Brilliant, I definitely encourage people

37:52

to buy the book obviously but to

37:55

follow you as

37:57

you connect those threads from those

37:59

first encounters in the

38:02

late republican era all the way up to Heraclius,

38:06

which is where I want to turn now for the last part

38:08

of the interview. It was obviously a very dramatic

38:11

and popular story within the history

38:13

of Byzantium. Listeners

38:15

will remember

38:16

Maurice

38:19

restoring Cushro II to his

38:21

throne and then being overthrown by focus

38:24

and

38:26

Cushro II then to avenge his

38:28

patron starts

38:30

conquering the eastern border.

38:32

What do you make of that? Because that's kind

38:35

of what you talk about across the whole book is

38:37

that both sides are pretty happy with this border.

38:39

A lot of the wars are fought for sort of PR

38:41

purposes. What

38:43

do you think, I mean we are speculating, but what

38:46

do you think makes Cushro II think no I'm

38:48

going to attempt something bigger?

38:50

I do one, I mean you can't

38:52

exclude the personal element. He

38:55

might genuinely have felt that

38:58

having been saved by someone who's now murdered

39:00

that he owes it to that memory to do the same

39:02

in reverse basically. And of course

39:04

you have

39:06

possibly he claims he's got Maurice's

39:09

son there early

39:12

on, whether it really is or not because it

39:14

depends on how literally you take the Roman sources of them

39:16

all being murdered

39:18

who then disappears and we don't know what happens to him. So

39:21

are you actually just trying to repay the compliment,

39:23

do exactly the same thing? I suspect,

39:26

I think there's a lot to be said for the idea

39:28

that probably his ambitions change

39:30

and develop

39:32

because again we have a severe problem. If

39:34

we had a

39:35

Procopius for these years and

39:38

you could follow year by year in

39:40

detail those campaigns because it takes

39:43

them years to break through the Roman frontier

39:45

and this has become over

39:48

a century and more back really going back

39:50

into the fourth century in the world you start to see an

39:52

ammianus of border fortresses,

39:55

well defended, and the

39:57

emphasis on campaigns is

39:59

not battles but sieges, because

40:02

if you could take an either sack or even

40:04

hold onto these fortresses, you're able to sort of move

40:06

your advantage forward a bit.

40:09

And that frontier has crystallized,

40:11

got stronger on each side. But

40:15

because we have such

40:17

flimsy, you know, the sources are so poor,

40:20

you forget that the Sasanian spend

40:22

years battering their way through.

40:24

And presumably some of these sieges are

40:26

the same sort of epics that you have in Ammianus

40:28

and Procopius, where

40:30

you've got all the attempts to intimidate the

40:33

defenders, then negotiate, persuade them

40:35

to give in.

40:37

In the past, in the main, the Persian king

40:39

of kings on these campaigns has been looking for money.

40:41

Yes, he wants glory, but it's come in and it's to

40:44

extort from the individual cities and then get

40:46

a good deal from the Roman emperor to go away,

40:48

essentially to leave them in business. And you wait

40:50

until the Romans are busy in the West or weak

40:53

otherwise. So there's an element of the pattern

40:55

that you could say at the start, maybe that's just it.

40:58

He knows the Romans are weak. So let's go

41:00

and see

41:01

what I can achieve. But normally

41:04

the Romans respond far faster

41:07

to get a field army or two

41:09

into the area to start to make life hard

41:11

for the Persians. So you notice

41:13

this very much a pattern of diminishing returns

41:16

in Procopius in particular, the accounts of the first

41:19

year or so of expedition, they raise loads

41:21

of money, they extort lots from the cities, they take several.

41:24

Second year, they don't get so much and so

41:26

on. And it tends to the point where you actually feel

41:29

the king of kings should have made peace earlier when he could

41:31

have got a better deal and he ends up with the worst one. But the

41:34

temptation was just roll the dice one more,

41:36

play another hand, raise the stakes.

41:39

But this doesn't happen because the Roman

41:41

troops that are sent to the area are partly divided

41:43

over their loyalty,

41:44

but focuses generals on the spot don't

41:47

do well.

41:48

And you almost feel the Persians, maybe there's just

41:50

a sense of an opportunity. Okay,

41:53

we've got another year. We can go and besiege these.

41:55

Nobody's gonna stop us. So let's get

41:57

a bigger advantage. And

41:59

then. Then it reaches the point where they have effectively

42:02

taken out the Roman frontier system,

42:04

and they can move freely much deeper,

42:07

and there's still nobody to stop them.

42:10

So does it develop from,

42:12

let's just see, you know,

42:14

let's, let's again, let's put some pressure on and

42:16

I can use the perfect, you know,

42:19

they usually need a pretext for war. Neither

42:21

side wants to just declare a war on the other.

42:24

So they claim some faults on the other's

42:26

part. And one

42:28

of the frequent ones has been, well, I need you

42:30

Romans need to help pay for the frontier

42:32

defenses to the north that are stopping the white

42:35

Huns and others from coming and they'll bother us, but they'll

42:37

also bother you. So you know, we're doing you a favor,

42:40

pay us some money.

42:41

And in the past, you've

42:45

read to this, you've got the vengeance

42:48

for your dead patron. But

42:52

what's odd is that relatively

42:54

early on,

42:55

one of the striking themes again, it's, it's

42:57

they're in detail in Procopius, but you can go right

42:59

back to Augustus' day. And certainly it's

43:01

there in detail in Tacitus account of the war with Nero

43:04

is all the embassies that are going back and forth.

43:07

Whenever there is even when there's open war, let alone

43:09

between them, each side's talking to

43:12

the other all the time. And sometimes it's on the

43:14

pretext of let's run some prisoners or

43:16

something else, but they, they keep on making

43:18

each other an offer, you know, okay, let's make peace.

43:20

We'll give you this. That's okay. And

43:23

the wars go on when neither side is quite satisfied

43:25

with the negotiation.

43:27

Once Khuzro

43:30

or Khuzro's representatives refuse to speak

43:32

to the runs or Roman ambassadors brought to

43:34

him and he has them arrested, then executed.

43:37

That's profoundly different. That

43:40

suggests that at least at that point, if not before

43:42

he's decided, I can get more than this. No,

43:45

I can actually take territory permanently.

43:48

Because if you think back to all

43:50

the wars they fought for centuries,

43:52

how much land has any king of kings ever taken

43:55

permanently?

43:56

It's tiny. It's, you know, you might take

43:58

a city and

43:59

Yes, you know, you've

44:02

abandoned Nicibis, the big

44:06

great, and how that dominates the sources

44:08

as who's to blame and what's gone wrong and this is a

44:10

great disaster. But it doesn't

44:12

actually change the size

44:15

of the territory you control very much. It just gives you

44:17

a slightly more advantageous frontier and

44:19

a slightly less advantageous frontier for the Romans.

44:22

So suddenly to stop talking

44:25

and you're starting to occupy

44:27

land and cities with

44:29

a view to saying, and this is more marked, obviously, going to

44:31

Syria and Palestine.

44:33

And when you start to take the

44:36

big cities, the Antiochs, the Jerusalems,

44:38

places like this, and then later on in Egypt.

44:43

It is large because there's no one to stop him. The Roman attempts

44:46

to block them are pretty feeble because

44:48

the civil war dominates what's going

44:50

on and then leaves them so weak. And

44:53

yes, maybe there's a longer term overstretch

44:55

from Justinian's expansion and the fact

44:58

that you've still got people like Heraclius

45:00

out there in Africa with some troops, enough

45:02

to mount a successful bid to the throne,

45:05

but you've got to leave some there, otherwise that area is overrun

45:07

as well. So there might be some

45:10

of that, but I think it's,

45:12

we're always tendency as historians, we

45:14

want to see underlying causes,

45:17

changes in factors. There might even

45:19

be in all of this an element of luck that the Persians

45:21

just do very well and they win more

45:24

than they have for ages. And then it starts

45:26

to snowball. And then Khuzro

45:28

thinks, well, actually, because

45:32

there's clearly, even though there's been this self-imposed

45:35

restraint in wars between the empires before

45:37

then, they don't like each other. And they would, there

45:39

is this sort of dream of, let's conquer the

45:41

world, let's be the king

45:44

of all the Arians and the non-Aryans literally,

45:46

rather than just in, the same as Augustus

45:49

could talk about ruling in India and this sort of thing.

45:53

So I think it develops. And then

45:56

chance plays a part. And it's

45:58

striking to me that there's...

46:00

the attitude of many of the Roman communities

46:02

within these provinces is

46:05

quite similar to a lot of Western communities

46:07

in the 5th century.

46:09

In that, the

46:11

Empire can't protect you, so you're faced

46:13

with a choice. Do you deal

46:15

with it in the West? It's a barbarian warlord.

46:18

Here it's a far more organized, but not necessarily

46:20

huge, numerically army.

46:23

But if they treat you fairly well, if

46:25

they'll grant you reasonable terms, then

46:28

you can't be expected to die for an emperor

46:30

who's not supporting you, and maybe the Empire will

46:33

come back.

46:34

So cities start, and then that's

46:36

the path that obviously when the Arab army is coming again, it's

46:38

the same thing.

46:40

But it's

46:41

because Heraclius will win

46:44

and the Persians will get chased out, we sort

46:46

of see this as more of an aberration, but it's actually quite

46:48

similar to things other Roman communities,

46:50

the way they've reacted to the same sort of threat,

46:53

because you don't have the

46:56

military capacity to rebel and

46:58

do, but the Empire has

47:00

very much deterred any development

47:02

of that sort of tradition. You haven't wanted that, so

47:04

you're left when the army isn't there. There's not much

47:07

you can do. And when the Persians are

47:09

willing to deal with the local nobility, and

47:12

essentially communities keep their laws, they keep

47:14

their traditions, most importantly, they keep their religious practices.

47:17

You're not going around knocking down churches and putting

47:19

up fire temples. You're actually

47:22

treating people pretty well. Well

47:24

enough that, yes, you're imposing tribute on them. You

47:26

want lots of money and you are an invader, but

47:30

it's not so terrible that they can't

47:32

accept it,

47:34

at least in the meantime, and hope maybe things will get

47:36

better.

47:37

Yes, I think

47:39

growing up on stories of the

47:41

French resistance or whatever has

47:44

misled a lot of people about what

47:46

communities in medieval ancient times were

47:48

realistically able to do. So

47:51

final question, what's

47:55

your assessment of Heraclius'

47:58

career? are

48:00

always tempted to say, well, Heraclius

48:02

is a strategic genius because

48:05

he wins the war. But there are

48:07

those who push back and say, well,

48:09

you know, he started a civil war that led

48:11

to this, he lost early

48:13

battles, and then he lost to the Arabs. So how

48:15

do you see him in wide view?

48:18

It's never simple. And you've always got to be careful

48:21

to, you know, it's fine as an after dinner

48:23

conversation, but you never want to get into your top 10 list

48:25

of generals and who could win, which,

48:27

okay, you've even got with in the ancient world

48:29

with Scipio and Hannibal talking about who's

48:31

the best sort of thing. But

48:34

the problem is focus is clearly not doing a

48:36

good job. You know, he's risen

48:38

in it, but

48:40

think how many emperors have come

48:42

to power that way.

48:44

Not so much recently, in

48:46

that case, this is almost a throwback to

48:48

the third and fourth centuries of how you do things.

48:51

But he's not defending well

48:53

against the Persians. So I don't

48:56

think, you know, again, you could you could argue, well,

48:58

maybe he should have been a good loyal Roman chap and hope it all

49:00

worked out.

49:01

He does win. He clearly has military talent,

49:04

and he clearly can inspire. He

49:06

starts in a bad place. And

49:09

again, you have the renewed attempts. So

49:11

let's negotiate. Let's do what we've always

49:13

done in the past. Let's talk to the Persians. I'm

49:16

sure the King of Kings will be reasonable. You

49:18

know, and even that point where the you know, you

49:20

have the letter from the Senate of Constantinople,

49:22

which is quite extraordinary in the context and not

49:25

mentioning him. And, you know, you are wondering,

49:27

would he actually have been willing to step down

49:29

because they're so desperate? But it's

49:33

I think I mean, it's very

49:36

interesting, because again, he fights, but he does

49:38

clearly learn. And his expeditions

49:41

are

49:41

impressive. And but the

49:44

way it all happens, the speed he maneuvers makes makes

49:46

it very clear these are quite small armies. But

49:50

he's very good at leading and you've got enough to make

49:52

a good army that size. And it

49:54

probably is within the range of the strategic

49:56

on and things like that, where, you know, anything

49:59

over 10. thousand is big, anything over 15 to 20

50:01

thousand is almost unimaginably huge,

50:04

which is a contrast even to

50:06

Procopius and

50:08

Belisarius and others armies when they're facing the Persians,

50:10

not in the west, in the west the armies are pretty tiny.

50:14

So I think he's able to,

50:17

luck is on his side, I mean the Persians

50:19

clearly exhaust themselves and you have

50:21

internal rebellion that brings them down, because

50:24

probably, I mean again you look at all the success

50:26

the Sassanians have had,

50:28

but to hold on to all this new territory

50:31

is requiring numbers of troops they just don't

50:33

really possess,

50:35

and

50:36

it's the problem for any conqueror when

50:38

there's a rival out there, even if it's someone like

50:41

Hannibal in Italy in the third century,

50:43

you take allies away from the enemy, you take over

50:45

territory, you then got to protect them,

50:47

otherwise they're back very quickly to

50:49

the other side. So

50:52

I think you sometimes have to

50:54

dial down the rhetoric and realize how

50:57

desperate these campaigns are, they're extraordinarily

50:59

bold to in that situation

51:01

think rather than well let's hunker down, do the best

51:03

we can, hold them off as long as possible, actually

51:06

just say no we'll lose

51:08

that way, we've got to try and attack,

51:10

which is a very

51:12

old-fashioned Roman way of doing things, but

51:15

it hasn't

51:16

been anything like as possible in

51:18

most circumstances. So

51:21

I think yes the man is talented,

51:23

obviously later

51:27

it's hard to believe there isn't a factor of exhaustion

51:30

after the war for both Sassanians and Romans,

51:33

because this has been a life or death struggle

51:35

in a way that nothing has been up until then, it's

51:38

bound to have been chaotic, you're trying to reabsorb

51:40

provinces that have been occupied for years on end, and

51:42

again you know think back to the French resistance,

51:44

the Persians have been in Egypt, in Syria for

51:47

as long as the Germans were in France,

51:50

and it did take time to put everything back

51:52

together, and that's when as with

51:54

the Sassanians to a great extent they've used local

51:56

institutions, they've used the police, they've used

51:58

the authorities, the law, all this sort of stuff.

51:59

of thing. Even so, it's still

52:02

a major dislocation in

52:04

the system. And then you've got the whole competitiveness

52:06

for who's going to be the factions in charge

52:08

afterwards. So I think

52:13

one thing that struck me is that you

52:15

know, you have these appeals that Heraclius

52:17

makes to his men fighting the

52:19

Persians that promises them,

52:22

you'll get to heaven if you die fighting, you'll be a martyr

52:24

effectively know that with buying

52:26

into that tradition,

52:27

it's odd that they don't then say that when they're fighting

52:30

the Muslim Arabs.

52:31

And they I really think they don't take them very

52:33

seriously.

52:34

Because the tradition has always been, you know, you look back

52:37

to the strategic on and the like, Arabs

52:39

are not a big threat. And

52:41

that perception of these are people, yeah, they're nasty,

52:43

they'll raid, but they'll go away.

52:45

And the

52:48

Persians are an enemy you've known

52:51

for so many centuries, and

52:53

you know, they're big, you know, they're sophisticated, you know,

52:55

they're formidable militarily, very

52:58

determined, very smart. So you respect

53:00

them, whereas these more ragged

53:02

looking armies that appear from states,

53:04

you know, names you've never heard of, you don't

53:06

acknowledge, and you just think, well, it's

53:09

the storm, but it's a storm that will pass. But

53:12

of course, you have for many of these communities that are being occupied

53:14

for the second time, and the Arabs also

53:17

treat them very well. You know, there is great

53:19

respect, and partly that's religious aspect, it's

53:21

easier for them to do within the Roman Empire than it is

53:23

to some extent, with the Zoroastrian

53:26

Persians, you know, there's more hostility there, whereas

53:29

you go to Jerusalem and you march in, but

53:31

you don't start pulling down churches, and you

53:33

build a mosque off to the side. So it's

53:36

so I think for communities that in their own

53:38

memory,

53:39

can think of an occupation before,

53:42

it's much easier to give in a second time round and

53:44

you also know you acknowledge you can't fight.

53:47

But again, it's

53:48

always, you know, dangerous

53:51

just to say, well, this is why one side loses.

53:54

One of the reasons the Arab armies win is that they're good

53:56

at what they're doing.

53:58

And they get on a roll, they get the

53:59

confidence, they gather momentum and their ability

54:02

to incorporate others in

54:04

the evidence you have for Jews,

54:06

for Christians, for others fighting in the early armies

54:09

and getting their share of the loot in the survival

54:12

of the the Surin and the Karin and these

54:15

great clans for generations

54:17

means that it's it's

54:21

we tend to work

54:24

back from the

54:25

reconquests of the crusade, the

54:27

Islamic conquest and see everything

54:30

in in this later opposition

54:33

where it's much more bitter, at least sometimes,

54:35

I mean that's a more complex story

54:38

than the sort of the casual look

54:40

suggests.

54:41

So I think

54:43

he's a very able man but he's you

54:46

have to be the first to say that he is emperor in a very difficult

54:48

time period and

54:51

he is not like many of these talented people, they're

54:53

not perfect, they make mistakes as well and

54:55

so many commanders, you know Alexander the Great had the

54:58

in a sense good fortune to die before he lost a battle,

55:02

someone like Napoleon if they'd been shot in 1812 might

55:05

have had a different reputation,

55:08

you know you've almost got to live long enough

55:10

to to get old to fail

55:14

and Heraclius to an extent

55:16

does that, he goes on, you

55:18

know he's not the vigorous man, he's been he can't command

55:20

armies in the field because

55:23

obviously yes as a commander

55:25

he gets good treatment, he's

55:27

got slave servant stuff around

55:30

him but when you still think about the distances

55:32

he traveled in those campaigns

55:34

in some very rugged very difficult

55:37

terrain and he's campaigning throughout the year,

55:39

I mean he goes into winter borders for a short period,

55:42

you've got to be tough as old boots to do this stuff as

55:44

have yourself and you're setting an example to inspire

55:46

them, so this is someone who's done a lot

55:48

but

55:49

a decade and two decades on,

55:52

you can't keep doing that, that's something

55:54

that so I'm

55:57

on the whole I'm still

55:59

fan's probably the wrong word, but I'm still inclined

56:02

to think this is a very able man who

56:04

does a lot and achieves, and he's also lucky.

56:07

As the this deep Roman tradition, the

56:09

best commanders are lucky because if you're

56:11

not, you've had it anyway. So

56:14

it's not all his ability. There are other people involved, there's

56:16

chance, and there's this overreach

56:18

on the part of Cuzro that turns

56:20

his own generals against him. And perhaps

56:22

this tradition of starting to get suspicious

56:25

of his own people, which would not be unusual

56:28

within this system. And

56:30

you can always say, well, given that they

56:33

did rebel, then he was right to be suspicious,

56:35

but it's always chicken and egg situation

56:37

with that sort of thing.

56:39

That's such an interesting answer.

56:41

And I think this is where we'll close the interview,

56:43

because you've just made me realize that had

56:46

Heraclius died in his sleep

56:48

before

56:49

the Arabs invaded, we would

56:51

now be saying, oh, if Heraclius

56:54

was still alive, it would

56:56

have been different. He could have held them back. That's

56:58

the thing. I mean, it brings us back

57:00

to, yes, we look at the trends, we look

57:02

at all the military culture, the economy,

57:05

the society behind it.

57:06

But these are still flesh and blood human beings, and

57:09

they all have their personalities. And whilst yes,

57:12

it's not all about one man, it's not all about

57:14

the commander. Nevertheless, these leaders do

57:16

make a huge difference. And

57:18

those little chances of, you

57:21

know, the stray arrow that takes somebody out when they're young

57:24

or that misses them and adds their heroic

57:26

image.

57:27

And given those

57:29

campaigns, he could have got killed.

57:31

And he could have died as diseased. And he could have just died

57:33

in his sleep. And as you say, we would

57:36

have been that was the decisive factor

57:38

that caused it all. So yeah,

57:40

well, it's insights like that, that I

57:42

hope people will be inspired

57:45

to come by the book and to read more and

57:47

to learn more about the rivalry.

57:49

Dr. Goldway, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

57:51

Thanks for having me. It's been great fun. I

57:56

hope you enjoyed that conversation. I

57:58

certainly did. As I mentioned

58:00

before, if you'd like to listen to the book

58:03

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And yeah, it's addictive once you

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finding all the good stuff there, because it's not just books,

58:35

you can find old sitcoms

58:39

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58:42

you're into that the way I am. Anyway,

58:44

that's it for

58:46

the History of Byzantium today. But if you'd like

58:49

to know more about the history of Cyprus, that

58:51

underrated and under-covered part of

58:53

the Byzantine Empire, then check

58:55

out the History of Cyprus podcast. Andreas

58:59

is not going in chronological order. So

59:01

if you're interested in the Byzantine period, there

59:03

are already episodes touching on the

59:06

condominium with the Caliphate and the

59:09

Crusader occupation of the island. But

59:12

there's also episodes about British rule and

59:14

other

59:14

modern stuff, as well as stuff

59:16

before the Romans even appeared. So

59:19

check out the History of Cyprus wherever

59:21

you

59:21

get your podcasts. Thanks

59:29

for watching!