0:19

Ever seen. Neat.

0:21

birch me every

0:23

little thing. New

0:25

thing, Virginie. Every

0:28

little thing that's just feeding

0:30

the agree to our bear

0:32

that you live. Without

0:35

he. You're.

0:38

Listening to the Minimalist podcast with Joshua

0:40

Fields know, Burn and Tk Calm. And

0:42

Bedroom Alabama. Hello Everybody to Day

0:44

on the show. What a treat

0:46

we have for you. We're joined

0:48

by Marcus Collins and award winning

0:50

Market Or with One Foot in

0:52

the World of Practice. He served

0:54

as the Chief strategy Officer at

0:56

Widen and Kennedy and he also

0:58

has One Foot in the world

1:00

of academia is the Marketing professor

1:02

at the Raw School of Business

1:04

at the University of Michigan. He's

1:07

also the author of a new

1:09

book which is called for the

1:11

Culture The. Power behind what we

1:13

buy, what we do and who

1:15

we want to be coming up

1:17

on this free public. A minimal

1:19

opposite color has a question about

1:21

wanting a marketing job that does

1:23

not align with her values were

1:25

to talk a lot about marketing

1:27

and values and so much more

1:29

than we've got our lightning round

1:31

segment of fans question and a

1:33

listener tip for you. You could

1:35

check out the full to our

1:37

maximal edition of Episode Four Hundred

1:39

and Twenty Five where we answer.

1:42

Five times the questions and

1:44

we dive deep in the

1:46

several simple living segments. That

1:48

private podcast episode is our

1:50

right now at patriarch.com/the Minimalists.

1:52

Your support keeps our podcast

1:54

and you Tube Channel one

1:56

hundred percent advertisement free because

1:58

sing along and. y'all. Advertisements

2:01

suck. Let's start with our callers. If you've

2:03

got a question or a comment for our

2:06

show, give us a call 406-219-7839 or email

2:08

a voice recording to podcast at theminimalists.com. Our

2:15

first question today is from Olivia. Hello,

2:19

I'm Olivia from London and

2:21

I'm a Patreon subscriber. So my question

2:23

is about myself being a minimalist, all

2:26

close to it, kind of getting there, but

2:28

also wanting to pursue a job

2:31

in digital marketing. How

2:33

do you deal with wanting a job that gives you

2:35

more creativity than a more standard corporate

2:37

role yet at the same time

2:39

dealing with conviction because of the

2:41

pernicious forces of marketing that we

2:43

all know about and also feeling

2:45

like a bad person with wanting

2:47

to work in it just

2:50

because of the way the industry works,

2:53

how intense it is. I enjoy

2:55

marketing when it's for items I

2:58

want, but do believe it feeds into

3:00

consumerism. How do I move past advertising

3:02

sucks motto, but enjoy making money from

3:05

it even if I myself am a minimalist? Thank

3:07

you so much guys. Marcus,

3:10

I'm not sure if you identify with this question,

3:12

but sometimes as a person who's worked in marketing,

3:14

I worked in marketing for a long time as

3:16

well. And I think

3:18

sometimes we have to differentiate marketing

3:20

from advertising. Advertising can be a

3:23

subset of marketing, but at times

3:25

you might have to market something that

3:27

doesn't align with your values necessarily. Does

3:29

that resonate with you? Oh, sure. Absolutely.

3:32

I mean, I think that your delineation

3:34

is the right one to make. Marketing

3:37

is the act of going to market, right?

3:39

We take our products, product goods, product services,

3:42

and we bring them to market to the

3:44

people. And we do that through

3:46

different means, through the products that we put in the

3:48

world, the price that we assign to it, the means

3:50

by which we get it to people, what we call

3:52

placement, and promotion, which is

3:54

advertising. The idea is that we use these

3:56

four different levers to bring product to

4:00

people. Now as a

4:02

marketer, especially on the advertising side, we're

4:05

in the service-based business. So in some cases,

4:07

depending on where you sit in the organization,

4:09

you don't have the autonomy to say, I'm

4:11

not gonna work on that client, we're gonna

4:13

take that client, not this one. So you

4:15

find yourself working on things you don't necessarily

4:17

love. I feel

4:19

like I've been fortunate enough to my career that

4:22

I've had some discretion in that,

4:25

like, I don't believe

4:27

in this category, I don't believe in this brand

4:29

or believe in this product, and therefore I'm

4:32

not gonna work on it, my team is going to.

4:34

I'm not going to touch it because it's out of

4:36

line with my ideology. But by and large, in this

4:38

industry, it's really tough doing it be on the advertising

4:40

side because, you know, clients

4:42

play the bills. Yeah, I think that's

4:45

right. TK, I'm thinking about taking

4:47

a job that doesn't align with your values.

4:50

That often becomes a problem because you have, like,

4:53

a couple options. The first option

4:55

is you can take that job and be miserable

4:57

because it doesn't align with your values, or you

4:59

could change the job and identify

5:02

a job that maybe does align more

5:04

closely to your values, or

5:06

you can simply say, I'm gonna change

5:08

my values. And that one's a bit

5:10

more difficult, but it is possible to

5:12

change what you value over time. And

5:15

so I'm wondering what your thoughts are

5:17

about Olivia's question. I think

5:19

it's important to make a distinction between two

5:21

kinds of belief when we make statements like,

5:23

I don't believe in this product. The first

5:25

kind of belief is, I lack excitement

5:27

about the product, you know, it just doesn't

5:29

move me. I don't think there's anything unethical

5:32

about selling it or using it, but it's

5:34

just not my thing. And in the course

5:36

of life, we'll all be involved in the

5:39

process of selling things that we ourselves don't

5:41

need. The other kind of belief is to

5:43

say that it would be a violation of

5:45

my ethical standards to endorse this or support

5:48

this in any way. If

5:50

you're dealing with that second kind of belief, you

5:52

have no choice but to get out because you

5:55

can't just think about what you make when you

5:57

do something, but who you are in the process

5:59

of. coming by virtue of your doing

6:01

it. And if you're becoming someone that

6:03

you don't want to be by virtue

6:05

of selling a product, the best time

6:08

to get out is as soon as

6:10

you can. But I would encourage everyone

6:12

to not conflate, hey, this

6:14

doesn't get me really excited with

6:17

selling your soul. There are lots of things that we

6:19

can do to make money in

6:21

an honest way by using our gifts and

6:23

talents that may not be exciting. I can

6:25

cut your grass and make some cash. That's

6:27

not my passion in life, but it's also

6:29

not a violation of my core self to do that.

6:32

I always think about it this way, and I agree with you 1000%. I

6:35

think about it this way is that you should

6:37

find yourself in a company with people who see

6:39

the world the way you do. And collectively, they

6:41

will decide based on your shared beliefs,

6:44

whether this is the kind of client we want, these are

6:46

the kind of products that we support, because

6:48

we are driven by something far greater than just

6:51

the making of things. That's if you're an advertising.

6:53

If you are a marketer and just work in

6:55

the marketing department of a company, you can say,

6:57

I don't believe in them so I'm out. If

6:59

you're in the advertising agency, it's a little bit

7:02

harder because you have multiple clients. And if you

7:04

aren't in the decision making seat, then

7:06

it becomes a real big challenge. But I

7:08

find it much more advantageous to say,

7:10

this is how I see the world, who sees

7:13

the world the way I do, that

7:15

kind of company, I'm gonna work with them.

7:17

And that way I'm entrusting them that I'm

7:19

enjoying this company, not because of the brand,

7:22

not because of what looks like on my

7:24

resume, what the 401k is, what

7:26

the benefits, the perks are. But I'm

7:28

here because we see the world similarly

7:30

and together we are manifesting that core

7:33

belief in our work. We just so

7:35

happen to put products in the world.

7:37

What's interesting about that way of putting it is that

7:40

it not only increases the probability that

7:42

you will work with and for people

7:44

whose values align with yours, but it

7:46

also makes you more marketable in the

7:48

way that you present yourself. When you're

7:51

at a job interview or you're trying

7:53

to win a position, you

7:55

never want to present yourself as any job

7:57

will do. I just wanna work at this

7:59

company because I saw an opening and I need

8:01

a job. You always wanna be able to tell the

8:03

people you're looking to work with something

8:06

about why they fire you up.

8:08

Here's what I love about your

8:11

mission. When I did my research

8:13

before this interview on this company, here's what

8:15

I love about the way you serve your

8:17

customers. And here's a role I can envision

8:19

myself playing in that. It's a way of

8:21

being honest, like these are my values. So

8:23

if there's some conflict there, let me know.

8:26

But it also makes you look like I'm

8:28

interested in you because of you. It's like

8:30

going on a first date. You don't wanna

8:32

say, hey, I came out because anyone will

8:34

do and I'm lonely. I

8:36

came out because I'm interested in you. Marcus,

8:40

I think what TK, when

8:42

I hear TK talking about here is doing

8:45

something that aligns with your values and it's

8:47

easy for us to walk away from something

8:49

that is so far away from our values,

8:51

right? Like if I go to apply for

8:54

a marketing job at a company that sells

8:56

statues of Chairman Mal and why he's the

8:58

best chairman of all time, it'd

9:00

be easy for me to look at that and

9:03

say, oh wow, that actually doesn't align with my

9:05

values at all. But for something else that is

9:07

societally accepted, going to go

9:09

work for say Coca-Cola, which we know

9:11

is not a health food, but

9:14

also if it doesn't align with my

9:16

values, I'm gonna feel the sense of

9:18

discontent all along the way. Can you

9:20

talk a bit about that? Yeah, there's

9:22

a cognitive dissonance that exists there and

9:24

that sucks. And you just spend

9:26

your whole working time there not being who you

9:28

are. And the idea, not to

9:31

sound like Karl Marx, but the idea

9:33

is that the work I do should

9:35

bring joy, should be reflective of

9:37

who I am, not this transactional thing that I'm

9:39

a part of. And I guess the meta text

9:42

of all this is that what

9:44

we're talking about is exactly what I tell

9:46

brands about how they should approach, how they

9:48

put themselves in the world, i.e. this, that

9:51

people should start with inventory. What

9:53

do I believe? Not the polar

9:55

things, like I'm anti-terrorism,

9:58

great. Hopefully

10:00

you are. Congratulations. I'm so glad

10:02

you took that stand. It's

10:05

so brave of you. But no, it's

10:07

these nuanced things about how I

10:09

see the world. And the

10:11

notion then is that you should go to a company

10:13

starting with, I believe this. And

10:16

I see that you do too. And I want to

10:18

do X, Y, and Z work with

10:20

you all because I feel like we could do great

10:22

things together because we see the world similarly. I

10:24

think brands, the most powerful brands, start

10:27

that way too. We see the

10:29

world this way. And we're going to target the

10:31

people who see the world the way we do. And

10:34

collectively, we'll build something greater than

10:36

just this exchange. So

10:38

it starts with first taking inventory on us.

10:41

So Olivia, as she's thinking about, I

10:43

like marketing. Great. Cool. That's

10:46

the functional thing. What do you

10:48

believe? How do you see the world? And once

10:50

you identify how you see the world, you say,

10:52

okay, who are the people out there who see

10:54

the world the way I do? Those are the

10:56

kind of companies I want to work for. I

10:58

want to do marketing there. But it starts with

11:00

a shared ideology. I think that that's how communities

11:02

are established based on shared belief, a shared way

11:04

of seeing the world. One fear

11:07

that comes up is sometimes we feel

11:09

like we check all the boxes and do

11:11

all the right things to get the position.

11:13

But maybe a few months in, we're

11:15

comfortable. We let our hair down. But

11:18

then something comes up. We're in the room and

11:21

someone says, this is the client we're working for.

11:23

This is the project we're doing next. And

11:26

you see something in that that conflicts with your

11:28

values. What do you do in a moment

11:30

like that? Well, that's what belief is

11:32

meant to do. It becomes a rubric that

11:34

if someone says, hey, we're going to work with

11:37

this client, we can raise our hand and say,

11:39

but this client believes this and we believe that.

11:41

So there is an incongruence there. So now it's

11:43

not an attack on the person. It's not even

11:46

putting yourself in a compromised scenario. It's

11:48

just stating the facts that we believe this, right?

11:50

This is how we see the world. Then why are

11:53

we working with this client? Question mark.

11:55

Great positive viewpoint as opposed to

11:57

saying this person's awful. Let's tear

11:59

them down. Let's drag them through

12:01

the town square. It's saying,

12:03

hey, they believe something different from us. And

12:06

let's put that on the table and let's have a

12:08

discussion around that. That's right. And in

12:11

the discourse of that challenge, if

12:13

people are revealing that they actually don't believe what

12:15

they say they believe, now you go, oh, these

12:18

aren't my people. Oh, so good.

12:21

Let's take a step back real quick and

12:23

let's talk about marketing. I mean, you wrote

12:25

a whole book about this and what goes

12:27

into what we buy. And what's fascinating about

12:29

it is I think quite often there's this

12:31

term mimetic belief, and

12:33

I think mimetic desire is something else

12:35

that is there as well. It's just

12:38

like what's going on behind our purchases.

12:40

And when we really scrutinize it, and

12:42

obviously you understand this, I was hoping you

12:45

could talk to our audience about what is

12:47

going on behind what we buy. So,

12:50

it's a lot there. What

12:53

the literature tells us is that our

12:55

consumption behavior is not as functional

12:57

as we believe. So actually,

12:59

let's do this. If we

13:02

go back in time, little known fact, for

13:05

centuries the global GDP was zero. I

13:08

mean, we weren't entering into any exchange, hardly any.

13:10

If it was, it was very, very minimal. And

13:13

that was until 16th century, Queen Elizabeth had

13:15

the bright idea that she would use consumption

13:17

as a means of e-grandizement, as a means

13:19

of power. The notion was this, royalty

13:22

have everything, nobility have a little less,

13:24

peasants have nothing. And the notion

13:26

is that if you were nobility, you

13:29

were therefore compelled to consume to maintain

13:31

your status in the social hierarchy. And

13:34

peasants will look up the ladder realizing that consumption

13:36

was the only way up. It was a means

13:38

of control, a means of power. And

13:41

that was the case for two centuries, until we saw

13:43

a little bit of economic activity happening in the 18th

13:45

century in Northern Europe, where companies started to make a

13:47

little bit more money, so they paid their employees a

13:49

little bit more money. And those

13:51

employees went and spent more money. So more

13:53

companies made more money, they start to pay

13:55

their employees more money, more, more, more, more,

13:57

more. And we get this cycle of consumption. And

14:00

the revolution happens at the end of the

14:02

century, kaboom, consumption all over

14:04

the place. So

14:06

what is this telling us? What's the point of all

14:08

this? Is that from the

14:10

very existence of consumption at scale,

14:13

it had nothing to do with functionality, everything

14:15

to do with social and psychological impulses. We

14:18

buy not because of what things are, but because

14:20

of who we are and who we want to

14:22

be. We're going to want to signal who we are

14:25

in the social hierarchy. And as doing

14:27

such, it becomes a way for us to

14:29

peacock our desired identity so that we can

14:31

connect with people who are like ourselves. Being

14:33

social animals by nature, as Aristotle puts it,

14:36

our consumption becomes a way by

14:38

which we make our cultural subscription

14:40

material. And by doing so,

14:43

it demarcates who we are in this world and

14:45

who are people like ourselves. And

14:49

so it's fought on. I think what happens

14:51

here is we realize that many

14:53

of our consumption choices aren't

14:55

our consumption choices. I didn't decide

14:57

this. My peer group decided it.

15:00

My culture decided it for the

15:02

culture. But also my

15:04

society or maybe it's my church group

15:06

or maybe it's the people in my

15:08

neighborhood or maybe it's I like this

15:10

one thing and therefore I must like

15:12

these 10 other things in order to

15:15

complete what I like. It makes me

15:17

a whole person. And that

15:19

is really the birth of consumerism. Minimalism

15:22

is not a new idea. You can go

15:24

back to the Stoics. You can go back

15:26

to every major world religion, whether it's Hinduism

15:28

or Christianity or Sufi Islam. And

15:31

what you realize pretty quickly is like they're

15:33

often talking about simplifying, getting rid

15:35

of the excess. But what

15:37

is new is this problem, this problem of

15:40

consumerism. There's nothing inherently wrong

15:42

with consumption. We all need to

15:44

consume some things. But

15:46

the ideology of consumerism is you

15:48

won't be complete until you consume.

15:50

And I think that's really the

15:53

problem that we run up against.

15:55

One thousand percent. I mean, what

15:57

I like about the way you

15:59

frame that. is that it gets to

16:01

what this idea of cultural consumption is

16:03

all about. Our identities,

16:06

who we are, is

16:08

how we demarcate our place in the world. In

16:11

all of the complexities, these multi-hyphenates that we

16:13

use to describe ourselves, whether it's an individual

16:15

referent, I'm a professor, a group referent, I'm

16:17

a fraternity called Fabio da Sigma, or

16:20

an abstract referent, I'm a father of two little girls. It's

16:23

the way that I self-identify. And because of who

16:25

I am, I see the world as a certain

16:28

way. If I'm a minimalist, I have a certain

16:30

set of beliefs. And those beliefs

16:32

are based on my identity. That's why for some,

16:34

a cow is leather, for others, it's a deity,

16:36

and for some, it's dinner. Which one

16:39

is it? It's all those things, depending on how you

16:41

self-identify. So because of who I am, I see

16:43

the world a certain way. And because I see

16:45

the world a certain way, I navigate the world a

16:47

certain way. For instance, I'm a Collins, we believe

16:49

family first come first, so Sunday mornings, I'm in the

16:51

church sanctuary. Or I get a passive-aggressive call from my

16:54

mother that afternoon, how was your morning, Marcus? Unless she

16:56

gets down. And it's

16:58

because, I didn't sign

17:00

any stone tablets in blood saying I'm going to

17:02

go to church on Sundays. But I do that because

17:05

that's what people like me do. You know, it's saying

17:07

in philosophy, I think therefore I am, in this

17:09

case, it's I am, therefore I do. I

17:11

am a, therefore I. And

17:14

this idea is all anchored

17:16

in identity. Right?

17:18

Which Alex is more excited about running, or

17:20

more committed to running? Alex who likes to

17:22

run, or Alex who identifies as a runner?

17:25

The one who identifies as a runner, that's the

17:27

Alex that gets up in the morning, even though

17:29

she or he or they are tired and it's

17:32

raining and it's cold, and they don't want to

17:34

do it. But they do it because that's just

17:36

what people like them do. And then they express

17:38

themselves through some cultural production. Music,

17:40

art, literature, film, television, and the

17:42

like. And the outcome of these

17:44

things make up our culture. And

17:47

consumption, by its very nature,

17:50

becomes an act of

17:52

culture. It's a cultural act, right?

17:55

Where I go, where I go to school, if I go

17:57

to school, who I marry, if I marry, how I. style

18:00

myself, style my hair, if you have it,

18:04

where you vacation, what you eat, how

18:06

you bury the dead, if you bury

18:08

the dead, all these things are byproducts

18:10

of our cultural subscription. Consumption

18:13

becomes an outward expression

18:15

of inward beliefs. So

18:18

the notion of acquiring things

18:20

all depends on your worldview.

18:23

I think the worldview can become

18:25

stifled when we radically narrow or

18:28

limit the definition of a thing.

18:30

I think that's where someone like Olivia is right now where

18:33

she's like, how can I be

18:35

a minimalist and a marketer? I'm here to

18:37

tell you, I'm a minimalist and a marketer.

18:39

We market this podcast, we market our books,

18:42

we promote things that we believe in. We

18:44

don't do any advertisements. That's

18:46

not a moral or ethical stance. I just don't

18:48

like them. I think they're kind of gross and

18:50

I don't like listening to other podcasts that have

18:53

advertisements. I don't like turning on a YouTube

18:55

video that has advertisement pre-roll. And so I've

18:57

just opted out of that. Now, part of

18:59

that means I'm opting out of a certain

19:01

amount of money as well, a lot of

19:04

money. And Olivia, that might also

19:06

be true for you. Yes, you can go work

19:08

for the big marketing agency that's going to make

19:10

you do a bunch of things that you don't

19:12

want to do, but you're going to

19:14

make that, you're going to get that bag, right? But

19:17

you know what? You're going to show

19:19

up every day and you're going to take the bag, but

19:21

you're not going to feel really great about it. And

19:24

the opposite is maybe you can show up

19:26

somewhere where the bag is much smaller or

19:28

a little bit smaller, but you feel fulfilled

19:30

and paid in all of these other ways. You

19:33

know, Lauren Hill said it best, how are you

19:35

going to win if you ain't right within? Like

19:38

you have to know who you are, how you

19:40

see the road, what you believe to make the

19:42

decisions that are congruent with it. If not, if

19:45

you don't know where you're going, all roads will

19:47

lead you there. Right? So

19:49

if you're not very clear on what I believe

19:51

on what I'm willing to compromise, what

19:53

I'm convicted about, then you

19:56

find yourself constantly at odds with yourself. And that's

19:58

just a terrible way to be. So

20:01

I think what quite often, and TK has really helped me

20:03

with this, expanding the idea of

20:05

what it means to be a minimalist

20:07

or a marketer or whatever that identity

20:10

that you've picked up is, what

20:12

does this identity say about me? Because

20:15

we recognize that isn't my real self,

20:17

that isn't who I am. My identity

20:19

is a false self, but I get

20:21

to construct that identity so

20:24

that it meets my desires as

20:26

opposed to meeting the desires of

20:28

everyone else. That's right. There will

20:30

always be people who claim to see

20:33

a contradiction between who you claim to

20:35

be and what they observe you doing.

20:37

Hey, you laughed. How could you be

20:39

a Christian? You just bought

20:42

a $5 cup of coffee. How could

20:44

you be a minimalist? You went

20:46

to that school. How could you be black? You

20:50

said that. You cried. How could you

20:52

be a man? And

20:55

in those moments, there is

20:57

an opportunity for us to affirm

20:59

that part of what it means to be

21:01

a thing is to contribute

21:03

to the ever-evolving understanding of what

21:05

it means to be that thing,

21:08

that I get to help define what it

21:10

means to be a man. I get to

21:13

help define what it means to be black,

21:15

what it means to be an X or

21:17

a Y. And so when

21:19

we're looking at opportunities and we're experiencing

21:21

this fear like, oh my gosh, can

21:23

I be an X and work in

21:25

the entertainment industry? Can I be a

21:28

Y and work in the restaurant industry? We

21:31

have to not only think about those environments and

21:33

their ability to influence us, but also

21:35

about our own character and our ability

21:37

to influence those environments. And I would

21:39

say here with respect to this question

21:41

is trust the fact

21:43

that you have the power to

21:46

also change the culture and

21:48

to positively affect people's understanding of what

21:50

it means to be a marketer. It's

21:52

kind of like the whole used car

21:54

salesman stereotype. When I say used

21:57

car salesman, everybody thinks, oh, someone who's slimy,

21:59

someone who's who's gonna exploit me or

22:01

what have you. And that's because someone somewhere

22:03

experienced a used car salesman that was that

22:05

way. They wrote about it, joked about it,

22:07

and it became a trope. Well, you can

22:09

be the used car salesman. That's

22:12

honest, and that's funny, and that's charming, and that

22:14

takes care of people, and you can create a

22:16

new meme, a new trope, a new understanding. We

22:18

always have that power. Can I add to that

22:21

real quick? Because I think what's fascinating about that

22:23

is, in that market, you

22:25

actually have much more ability to stand

22:27

out, right? Because someone says, what do

22:29

you do? When you say I'm a

22:31

used car salesman, at first they're gonna

22:33

be like, ugh. And now

22:35

all of a sudden they've set the bar

22:37

so low for you. And if you provide

22:40

outstanding customer experience and a wonderful customer service,

22:42

and you have made yourself stand out

22:44

just from the pack of other people

22:47

who have formed that identity for

22:49

our society, because used car salesman

22:51

isn't inherently evil or bad. It

22:53

just happens to be a lot

22:55

of us have dealt with someone

22:57

who either ripped us off or

22:59

didn't care the way that we

23:01

want them to care about us.

23:03

I mean, what we're dancing around,

23:05

I think, is just so important

23:07

to underscore, is the idea of

23:09

meaning. And that meaning, in and

23:12

of itself, it's

23:14

inherently meaningless. That is, everything that we

23:16

look, that's around us, everything that we

23:18

see, right now, has

23:20

no inherent meaning. We have given it

23:22

meaning through negotiation, right? That's what Ferdinand

23:24

de Sacer, one of the

23:27

founding fathers of semiotics, talks about like this.

23:29

Nothing has inherent meaning. Take the color red,

23:31

right? Red, someone would say, is a

23:33

color. Well, it's a wavelength that makes your eyes see a

23:36

color. But if you're driving through an intersection

23:38

and you see a red light, red means stop.

23:41

Now, does red inherently mean stop? No. We

23:43

have negotiated that red means stop. And as

23:45

a result, we behave accordingly. Just like green

23:47

means go and yellow means hurry

23:49

up. All right, so the idea there is

23:52

that because things don't

23:54

inherently have meaning, then we,

23:56

through the discourse, we rework

23:59

meaning. And that's actually what

24:01

culture is. Culture is

24:03

a realized meaning-making system. It's

24:05

the way by which we see the world translated

24:08

based on the beliefs and ideologies that we hold.

24:11

So as a result, as we talk about marketing,

24:14

and rather one should be a

24:16

marketer, does it rub up against

24:18

my ideologies? And the intersectionality of

24:20

my identity, I'm a minimalist and

24:22

I'm a marketer, don't think they'll

24:24

coexist, then maybe we need to

24:26

be interrogating what it means to

24:28

be a marketer. And through the

24:30

discourse, shifting that. Because I would

24:32

argue in many ways, like you

24:34

say you hate advertising. I

24:36

actually, I hate that in traditional advertising too, but

24:38

in traditional advertising, blows. Why? Because

24:40

it's disruptive. It's never about me. It's

24:43

about moving me. It's about

24:45

influencing me. It's about pushing me, as

24:47

opposed to seeing the world through my lenses, helping

24:49

me. And the advertising that does that, we

24:51

actually go tell other people about it, not

24:54

because of what it is, but because of who we are.

24:56

The marketers who do this well, we go, yes,

24:59

thank you more, please. The Patagonias of

25:01

the world, yes, thank you more, please.

25:04

And the beautiful part about it is that not only

25:06

are there marketing activities helping people,

25:08

but they have a clear point of view.

25:11

They believe in minimalizing, reducing

25:14

our invasiveness on the planet.

25:17

And by wearing this jacket, I communicate it

25:19

about my identity. And the

25:21

marketing that the brand takes on,

25:24

not only acts as a way to inform

25:26

me about their products, but they actually become

25:28

cultural production because I share with people as

25:30

a way of expressing my identity. And therefore,

25:33

I would say that the best advertising isn't

25:35

advertising at all. The best

25:37

advertising become objects,

25:40

communicative objects that help me peacock who I am

25:42

in the world and find people who are just

25:44

like me. So help

25:46

me maybe steel man this for

25:48

our audience or for our podcast.

25:50

I don't anticipate ever doing ads

25:52

on The Minimalist podcast, but

25:55

in what scenario would something like that

25:58

make sense? What stars would need? to

26:00

align so that we

26:03

felt good about it and an audience would feel good

26:05

about it. Well, I don't think that you

26:07

would do traditional advertising at all. I think

26:09

the B-roll, like, you know, we're back to

26:11

react to this announcement and then, you know,

26:13

simply say, like, I'm the king. That

26:17

just feels antithetical to

26:20

who you are. But I think what you're

26:22

doing is what I talk about in the

26:24

book, that instead of

26:26

pushing value propositions, instead, preach

26:28

the gospel. And

26:31

in preaching the gospel, people go,

26:33

yes, finally someone said it. And

26:35

they'll say, hey, Mallory, you check out

26:37

this, this pocket. It's so good. It's

26:39

exactly what you and I were just

26:41

talking about. And then people become the

26:43

vehicle by which the product gets in

26:45

the market and reverberates into the population.

26:48

So I mean, in many ways, I say, keep doing

26:50

what you're doing because the actions

26:52

that you take are aligned with your

26:54

belief system. And as a result, you

26:56

feel believable. It feels real. I

26:59

mean, the word of the year, according to Merriam-Webster,

27:01

is authentic. Because there's

27:03

such little authenticity. But when

27:05

we see brands walk the

27:07

talk, we go, yeah, man, even

27:10

if you don't agree with them, you

27:12

go like, you're just doing a thing, man, at least

27:14

you know it. It's inconsistent. You know what I'm saying?

27:17

Absolutely. But when it's not,

27:19

you go, ugh, we're repulsed by things

27:21

that seem inauthentic. And by

27:23

the way, it's easy for us

27:25

to sniff that out as well.

27:27

The manufactured authenticity is the

27:30

antithesis of authenticity. That's right. It is

27:32

not authentic at all. And it's like

27:34

looking at some 2D cardboard

27:36

cutout of a thing. And

27:39

you know that it's not real. And

27:42

we all know that it's not real. When

27:44

I'm watching an NBA game and then all

27:46

of a sudden the commercials come on that

27:49

are just atrocious. I mean, some of them

27:51

are really, really bad. Now they're earworms, they're

27:53

catchy, and so maybe they're meant to be

27:55

bad in some respect. But also, I

27:58

see those and I'm not like, oh, that's not real. That

28:00

is a, that Burger King commercial is

28:02

a beacon of authenticity. Yeah. That's not

28:04

what they're trying to do. And I

28:06

think the way to identify authenticity

28:09

in yourself, and I'll bring this back to

28:11

Olivia, is understand what your values

28:13

are and Olivia, I'd encourage you to go

28:15

to theminimalists.com/V. There's

28:17

a free download there. It's a values worksheet.

28:20

Now once you identify, we identified four different

28:22

types of values. It's kind of like building

28:24

a house. You have a foundation. So if

28:26

everyone has similar foundational values and you have

28:28

a structure, that's important, what are your structural

28:31

values? Then you have surface values, like superficially,

28:33

I really like these types of clothes or

28:35

this type of car or whatever, this type

28:37

of art superficial or the surface

28:39

values, but then I think where we really get into

28:42

trouble is this fourth category we

28:44

call imaginary values. This is

28:46

something we think we value, but

28:49

then we don't actually value. It's like putting

28:51

a giant fence around the house without a

28:53

gate. It actually keeps us from the things

28:55

we value. And if we're not clear on

28:57

what our values are, what's going to happen?

29:00

Corporations and marketers are going

29:02

to hand us our values and say,

29:05

here's what you're supposed to do. Here's

29:07

who you are supposed to be. So

29:09

Olivia, theminimalists.com/V head on over there to

29:11

better understand your values. We've got an

29:14

essay over there that explains all of

29:16

those different values as well. Malabam,

29:21

what time is it? You know what time it

29:23

is. It's time for the lightning round where we

29:25

answer your questions from TikTok. Yes, indeed. You

29:27

can follow the minimalist on TikTok, also on

29:29

Instagram, Facebook X and threads. We are at

29:31

the minimalist on all of those platforms. Now,

29:34

during the lightning round, we each have 60

29:36

seconds to answer your question with a short,

29:38

shareable, less than 140 character response. We

29:41

call them minimal maxims and we

29:43

put them in the show notes

29:45

over at the minimalist.com/podcast. By the

29:47

way, we'll also send you

29:49

those minimal maxims right to your email

29:51

inbox every Monday, whenever our new episodes

29:53

come out. All you have to do

29:55

is sign up for our email list

29:58

over at the minimalist email. We'll

30:00

never send you junk or spam or advertisements,

30:02

but we'll start your week off with a

30:04

bit of simplicity. We'll send you the show

30:07

notes to this podcast as well as seven

30:09

or eight or 10 minimal maxims for

30:11

the week. Today's question is from

30:14

Elmag. Elmag, nowadays, it

30:16

seems like we spend too much

30:18

time consuming media and not enough

30:20

time reading, progressing and evolving. Have

30:23

we become superficial because we are

30:25

being influenced by everyone trying to

30:27

sell us something and buy our

30:30

attention? TK, what say you?

30:33

I think you've got a point. I think

30:36

we've conquered boredom, but at the expense

30:38

of connection. You know, I

30:40

mean, we're more stimulated than

30:42

ever before. And yet

30:44

we're wrestling with these unprecedented bouts

30:46

of anxiety, loneliness and depression.

30:48

We're more entertained, but we're less engaged.

30:52

And I don't think the solution lies

30:54

in the direction of taking all of

30:56

our devices and smashing them to the

30:58

ground like iconoclasts. But we have

31:00

to come back to a remembrance of the fact that

31:03

it's not our tools that give our lives

31:05

meaning, it's us that give meaning to our

31:07

tools. And so we always have to be

31:09

asking ourselves questions like, am

31:11

I truly growing or am I

31:13

just counting metrics? Am I

31:15

truly connecting or am I just logging on?

31:18

Am I truly listening or am I just

31:20

hitting the play button and letting the audio

31:22

book go? Am I truly reading

31:24

and hearing and feeling or

31:27

am I just consuming content?

31:30

Am I truly connecting with people? I

31:32

think that's the solution is in that

31:34

direction. I love that minimal maxim

31:37

because what you're really talking about here is,

31:39

yes, we've conquered boredom in one way because

31:42

we're more excited, more stimulated than ever.

31:45

But the cost is the connection

31:47

with others, but also connection with

31:50

self because in a weird

31:52

way, we haven't conquered boredom.

31:54

We're more stimulated, but it amplifies

31:56

our boredom. It's so much easier

31:59

to be. bored today than it

32:01

was 10 years ago, 100 years ago,

32:03

200 years ago, boredom existed, right?

32:10

But we didn't have all of these options

32:12

to overstimulate ourselves. What happens? We're

32:14

walking around like we're fully caffeinated on

32:17

digital stimuli. And

32:20

you see it go to any busy

32:22

downtown, and it's just

32:24

faces lost in glowing screens. Now,

32:27

I'm not pathologizing that. I use glowing

32:29

screens all the time. But

32:31

the question is, at some point, when are

32:34

they using me? And

32:36

it brings me to another question. What's

32:38

the price of our progress? Yes,

32:41

we're progressing a lot, but at what

32:43

cost? Maybe it's

32:45

too expensive. Now, I'm not

32:47

against progress. I think we've progressed in

32:49

a bunch of ways that are great

32:51

for the human experience, in

32:53

ways that are more entertaining than ever. We've

32:56

made our lives convenient and

32:59

easier so we can focus on deeper,

33:02

more existential problems in our

33:04

lives. And

33:06

yet, we continue to stimulate

33:09

ourselves and ignore those

33:11

problems. And so

33:13

what I'd say is the price of

33:16

progress is expensive. Now,

33:18

it doesn't mean that it's not worth it. We're

33:22

fooling ourselves if we think progress is

33:24

just always a good thing. To

33:26

get back to L. Mag's question

33:28

directly, we're not doing enough reading,

33:31

progressing, and evolving.

33:34

And in fact, the

33:36

question itself is about being superficial.

33:39

Have we become superficial because we

33:41

are being influenced by everyone trying

33:43

to sell us something? And

33:46

I would say, yeah, I think we've

33:48

by and large become more superficial. Now,

33:51

you get to decide whether or not that's a good or a

33:53

bad thing. Something is superficial. That

33:55

is not bad. Imagine if I

33:57

get into a car accident and... It's

34:00

just a bumper is falling off of my car. I take

34:02

it in to get it fixed And I

34:04

need a new bumper and also it needs to be painted. I

34:07

say wait, why are you gonna paint it?

34:09

That's just superficial The

34:12

person at the mechanic shop will look me

34:14

like yeah that is superficial. That's the point

34:16

It's not gonna keep your car from running

34:18

and that is often the problem

34:21

If we take our car into the shop because

34:23

the transmission is shot and the

34:25

mechanic tries to paint my car instead Well,

34:28

yeah, that's sacrificing the thing

34:30

that actually needs to be done to

34:32

repair the vehicle for something

34:35

superficial But also I think

34:37

we lose ourselves when we pretend that something

34:39

is superficial when therefore it is bad They

34:42

get back it gets back to that conversation about

34:44

the values worksheet understanding

34:46

what some of your Values are

34:48

I don't want to forsake my

34:50

foundation of my house or my

34:52

foundational values for my surface

34:55

level Values it doesn't mean they're not important

34:57

to me. It just means they're not as

34:59

important as having that foundation on the house

35:02

Yeah, imagine a society where

35:05

no one slept because everyone saw

35:07

sleep as a sign of weakness,

35:09

right? And your social status

35:11

lowered if you were ever caught nodding off

35:13

and we found a way Scientifically to put

35:16

together all the different stimulants we have and

35:18

we create the anti sleep stimulant And so

35:20

whenever you get sleepy, you just shoot yourself

35:22

up with this anti sleep stimulant And it

35:25

gives you a boost of energy for a

35:27

little while. He's describing meth by the way

35:31

And imagine if that's what we did every

35:33

time we felt sleepy We

35:36

would stay awake longer. We would

35:38

probably get more done at

35:40

least quantitatively definitely not qualitatively,

35:42

but over time We

35:45

would eventually collapse and

35:47

we'd be done and the fundamental

35:49

problem Is that we have treated sleep

35:51

as if it's an illness to be

35:53

cured when it's really an? Indication

35:56

of the body needing something that

35:58

is valuable and appropriate of who

36:00

we are as human beings. I think

36:02

that's an analogy for what happens to

36:04

a society when we treat boredom as

36:07

an illness to be cured rather

36:09

than an indicator of something that

36:11

our humanity needs. When we feel

36:14

bored, that's not something to despise.

36:16

That's not a sickness. That is

36:18

a sign that I am a

36:21

human being. I am multi-dimensional and

36:23

I need to be engaged. Not

36:25

necessarily stimulated, not necessarily entertained, not

36:28

necessarily busy, but I need to

36:30

be engaged with myself and connect

36:32

it with others in a way

36:35

that goes beyond where

36:37

I'm at and what I'm doing right now.

36:39

And when we can be present with that

36:41

boredom and listen to it and learn from

36:43

it, that boredom can contribute to our aliveness.

36:45

But when we treat it like it's a

36:47

problem, we say, I'm bored, give

36:50

me some stimulation. And we cope

36:52

with it. We create the appearance of

36:54

having conquered it. But just

36:56

like the person who never goes to sleep

36:58

and shoots themselves up with the anti-sleep stimulant,

37:01

we're just taking a quicker

37:03

march towards our

37:06

own death. Yeah. I got

37:08

another question for you, but first real quick

37:10

for right here, right now, here's one thing

37:12

that's going on in the life of the

37:14

minimalist. How exciting is this TK Coleman? We're

37:17

calling it the Everything Tour. Minimalists

37:20

are celebrating the 10th

37:22

anniversary of Everything That Remains. It's

37:25

the groundbreaking book that started this

37:27

entire movement before Netflix, before the

37:29

podcast, before all of the social

37:31

media, TikTok and all of that

37:33

other stuff. We started the minimalists.com

37:35

and that led to our first

37:37

book, Minimalism, and then the

37:39

second book, Everything That Remains.

37:41

And it's the 10-year anniversary

37:43

this year. We're headed to

37:45

seven cities all across California,

37:47

Los Angeles, San Diego, San

37:49

Francisco, Orange County, Ventura, Palm

37:51

Springs, and Fresno. We're

37:53

doing an indie bookstores only. This is

37:56

a return to form for us in

37:58

many ways. This is the Minimalists

38:01

11th tour and

38:04

however it is our first free tour since

38:06

2015 and so you

38:10

can get your tickets for this tour

38:12

they're free over at theminimalists.com/tour now they

38:14

are limited so I say get them

38:17

quickly not because I'm trying to give

38:19

you exclusivity or or scarcity here but

38:21

just to understand that you know what

38:23

we're not gonna be able to accommodate

38:26

everyone and so all you have to

38:28

do is RSVP get a free ticket

38:30

The minimalists.com/tour you can come to multiple

38:32

events if you'd like each event is

38:35

going to be different TK

38:37

is gonna do a talk and Ryan and

38:39

I will look at the the book that

38:41

we have we'll do some readings we'll answer

38:43

your questions of course we'll dole out hugs

38:45

Malibam will be there Danny professor Sean will

38:47

be there what are you looking forward to

38:49

TK? Well I've gone

38:51

on tour with you guys many

38:53

times but I have never done the

38:56

bookshop stop and

38:58

this is your first free tour since 2015

39:01

but this will

39:03

be my first period and

39:05

you guys will be hitting the road again doing something that

39:07

you haven't done in a while I'll be doing this for

39:09

the first time so there's a novelty effect

39:12

for me as well I'm excited to

39:14

experience you guys and and our community

39:16

in this type of context and I

39:18

love books so get me around some

39:20

bookstores. This is one of my favorite

39:22

things especially indie shops and Alabama did

39:24

such a great job booking these tour

39:26

stops usually we use WME to book

39:28

our big tours or doing theaters or

39:30

we're doing comedy clubs sometimes this is

39:33

different from that these are

39:35

indie bookstores which are like some of

39:37

my favorite places on earth you're supporting

39:39

a local business and of

39:41

course you you're supporting

39:43

indie authors and which is what

39:45

the minimalists are and we have

39:48

these really meaningful experiences this is when we started

39:50

doing the hugs and became a regular part of

39:52

what we did is I remember going

39:54

to our first tour stop and at the end of it

39:57

we were in st. Petersburg Florida and we were done Ryan

39:59

and I really I guess we just, there were

40:01

eight people there. I guess we just hugged these eight

40:03

people and from that moment,

40:05

we became the huggers and it

40:07

was then solidified or

40:09

crystallized in our first Netflix documentary.

40:11

And so if you wanna join

40:14

us, we're doing seven cities

40:16

all over California and there'll be people

40:18

from all over the world there. We

40:21

have people coming from Germany or people

40:23

coming from Canada, Mexico, Denver,

40:26

all over the world. People coming from

40:28

Europe and Asia. They'll come to

40:30

these tour stops. You're welcome to

40:33

join us, theminimalists.com/tour for your free

40:35

tickets. Get them while you can.

40:38

Friday afternoon, Minimal Zoom, the first

40:40

Friday of every month. We host

40:42

a Zoom call for our

40:44

lovely, lovely patrons over

40:46

at patreon.com/theminimalists and Malabama's over there in

40:49

the chat. She's collecting your questions for

40:51

the ones we can't get to on

40:53

screen. One of my favorite things we do,

40:55

we get to interact with you face to face on

40:58

Zoom once a month. And

41:00

it looks like we have a question today. This one is

41:02

from Natalia. What is your opinion

41:04

on doing those buy nothing challenges for a

41:06

month or even a year? I

41:09

am thinking of trying it in addition

41:11

to my current decluttering process. Well

41:13

TK, a brand new year just started and

41:15

so people are often thinking about New Year's

41:18

resolutions, what can I change in my life?

41:20

Many people by now, we're a week into the year,

41:23

they've already given up on the New

41:25

Year's resolution because they realized like, this

41:27

was maybe someone else's resolution for me

41:30

but not actually my resolution. I

41:32

did this early on. We first started The Minimalists about

41:35

two weeks into theminimalists.com. I didn't have a

41:37

whole lot to write about. I already wrote

41:39

about my whole simplifying journey. What am I

41:42

gonna do? You know what? I'm

41:44

gonna try to buy nothing this year. This

41:46

is 2011 and I failed tremendously at

41:48

that but it was a beautiful failure and I learned

41:51

a whole lot of lessons about it because

41:53

here's the truth, the

41:55

purpose of an action is just

41:58

as important as the goal. the

42:00

action itself. So why are you doing

42:02

it? Do you have a New

42:04

Year's resolution because everyone told you you should have

42:06

a New Year's resolution? Or do you have a

42:08

goal about the month of January, the month of

42:11

February? Do you have a sales goal that someone

42:13

else handed to you? Okay, why are you doing

42:15

it? And if you just were

42:17

handed something that you're supposed to

42:19

do, it's probably gonna be pretty difficult to stick to.

42:21

But if you know you why you don't want to

42:23

buy anything, at least for a period of time, it's

42:26

kind of like, if you're on a boat that's

42:29

taking on water, you probably

42:31

want to patch the holes before

42:33

you fix the leak, right?

42:35

You can fix the leak. And

42:39

well, actually, I take that back before

42:41

you repair the entire boat. Because

42:43

what's gonna happen here is if you have

42:45

a boat full of water that is sinking,

42:47

it's not going to matter. If

42:50

you're just repairing the boat while it's underwater

42:52

at the bottom of the sea, right? Yeah,

42:54

that's kind of where we are when we

42:56

first start simplifying our lives, what happens? We're

42:58

underwater. We're overstuffed

43:00

with stuff overindulged for many years.

43:02

And now we're drowning in stuff.

43:05

Well, I need to fix that leak and the leak

43:07

is more stuff coming in. Yes, I need to get rid

43:09

of these access things in my home. Maybe

43:12

I need to address this, this leak first. And

43:14

that leak is like the Amazon one click shopping.

43:16

Oh, the influencer or the advertiser told me I

43:18

need to buy this thing. So I bring it

43:21

into my home before I know it. Yes,

43:23

I'm getting rid of a bunch of things. But

43:25

I'm bringing just as many things in no wonder

43:27

it's so difficult to declutter. That's

43:30

right. I like 30 day

43:33

experiments, by the way, they have

43:35

played a very positive

43:38

and pivotal role in my life.

43:40

Because number 130 days is just a

43:42

great amount of

43:44

time you can do just about anything for

43:46

30 days. And if you get to

43:48

day eight or day 17, and

43:51

you're like, Hmm, I don't think this is

43:53

working for me, you can still finish it

43:55

out and get the satisfaction of knowing that

43:57

you followed through and you gave this process

43:59

a fair chance. to reveal itself to

44:01

you and then you can choose to move

44:03

on to something else and you can reflect

44:05

on what you learned and take the best

44:07

of what you've learned with you or if

44:09

you really like the process you can just

44:11

commit for 30 days but you can commit

44:13

for another 30 days and you can keep

44:15

doing that without having the pressure that typically

44:17

comes with turning something into a lifestyle that

44:19

you're promising to the universe you're gonna do

44:21

forever. From now on I'm just gonna do

44:23

this thing indefinitely forever. There's no point

44:26

at which I have thought about stopping and then when

44:28

we get tired of it and we want to stop

44:30

we feel this sense of contradiction we feel like we're

44:32

giving up we feel like we're flaking and so I

44:34

love saying I'm gonna do this for 30 days because

44:36

you've given yourself an out but you've also given yourself

44:38

a commitment that's gonna take some effort to follow through

44:40

and I think you can do anything experimental

44:44

that allows you to explore a new way of

44:46

being for 30 days so I've done things like

44:49

I'm gonna write a blog post every day for

44:51

30 days or I'm gonna take a walk every

44:53

day for 30 days or I'm

44:55

gonna listen to a different podcast every day

44:57

for 30 days I'm gonna listen to a

44:59

different song each day that I've never heard

45:01

before not as part of the background but

45:03

sit down and listen to it every day

45:05

project proposal and like Josh says

45:08

as long as it's yours and you're doing

45:10

it for you go for it sounds fun.

45:12

We also recorded an entire episode about this

45:14

a by nothing episode it was episode 405 we'll

45:16

put a link to that in the show notes

45:20

as well we got a bunch more questions but

45:22

first Malabama what do you got for us? Here's

45:24

a minimalist insight from one of our listeners Hello

45:38

minimalist my name is Hannah from Stillwater

45:41

Oklahoma 29 years old not a patreon

45:44

subscriber because I'm not yet

45:47

debt-free but we'll get there I've been a fan of

45:49

yours for about seven years now and

45:51

I just want to say that

45:54

after a long time of minimizing

45:56

and letting things go and not clinging I

46:00

a year ago decided to completely get rid

46:02

of all social media. It

46:04

was something I tried in small little bouts

46:06

before that, but decided to finally give

46:08

it a full go. And I

46:11

celebrated with my husband yesterday a full year without

46:14

social media. And

46:17

we celebrated by drinking a little bit

46:19

too much wine and working on a

46:21

crossfish project. So thank you

46:23

for all of the wonderful

46:25

wisdom and support and encouragement

46:28

that you give all of us. Thanks.

46:33

All right, y'all. We'll see you on

46:35

Patreon for the full two hour maximal

46:38

edition of episode 425 with Marcus Collins,

46:40

which includes answers

46:44

to a bunch more questions,

46:46

questions like, how does corporate

46:48

marketing lower a person's self-esteem?

46:50

Especially when we're talking about

46:52

teenage girls and how they're

46:54

influenced by all of these

46:57

influencers. What

46:59

is advertising's role in so-called

47:01

cancel culture? And what are

47:04

eight marketing maxims that

47:06

will actually improve your

47:08

life? A

47:10

million more questions and simple living

47:12

segments, including a minimalist home tour

47:14

from one of our listeners over

47:16

on the minimalist private podcast. Visit

47:18

patreon.com/The Minimalist, or click the link

47:21

in the description to subscribe and

47:23

get your personal link so that

47:25

our weekly maximal episodes play in

47:27

your favorite podcast app. You also

47:29

get access to all of our

47:31

archives all the way back to

47:33

episode 001. By

47:36

the way, Patreon is now offering

47:38

free trials. So if you'd like

47:40

to test drive our private podcast,

47:42

you can join for seven days

47:45

for free. Big

47:47

thanks to Marcus Collins for joining us today.

47:49

You can check out his book. It is

47:51

called For the Culture. And you can follow

47:53

him on social media or check out his

47:55

website. We'll put links to all of that

47:57

in the show notes. That is our minimal

48:00

episode. for today. If you leave here with

48:02

just one message, let it be

48:04

this. Love people

48:07

and use things. Because

48:09

the opposite never works.

48:12

Thanks for listening, y'all. We'll see you next time. Peace.

48:30

Oh, I bet that you'll be fine

48:32

without it.