0:00

I work with the bad wolf, so to

0:02

speak in a way that is

0:04

not making it wrong, because the

0:06

minute I make it wrong, it has to

0:08

act out more to give my attention. Welcome

0:19

to the one you feed Throughout

0:21

time, great thinkers have recognized the

0:23

importance of the thoughts we have, quotes

0:25

like garbage in, garbage out,

0:27

or you are what you think, ring

0:29

true. And yet for many of

0:32

us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower

0:34

us. We tend toward negativity,

0:36

self pity, jealousy, or

0:38

fear. We see what we don't have

0:41

instead of what we do. We think

0:43

things that hold us back and dampen our

0:45

spirit. But it's not just about

0:47

thinking. Our actions matter. It

0:49

takes conscious, consistent, and creative

0:52

effort to make a life worth living. This

0:54

podcast is about how other people keep themselves

0:57

moving in the right direction, how they

0:59

feed their good wolf. Thanks

1:15

for joining us. Our guest on this episode

1:17

is Ruth King and emotional wisdom

1:20

author, coach, and consultant. She's

1:22

a guiding teacher at Insight Meditation

1:25

Community of Washington. She's also

1:27

on the teacher's council at Spirit Rock

1:29

Meditation Center and is the founder

1:31

of Mindful Members. Insight Meditation

1:34

Community in Charlotte, North Carolina.

1:36

Ruth has a master's degree in clinical psychology

1:39

from John F. Kennedy University and is

1:41

the author of several publications, including

1:44

her new book, Mindful of Race,

1:46

Transforming Racism from the Inside

1:48

Out. And here's the interview with

1:51

Ruth King. Hi, Ruth, welcome to the show.

1:53

Thank you. It's lovely to be here. I

1:56

am happy to have you on. Your book

1:58

is called Mindful of Rape Transforming

2:01

Racism from the Inside

2:03

Out, and I'm looking forward to

2:05

sharing the book with the listeners. But let's start

2:08

like we always do, with the parable. There's

2:10

a grandmother who's talking with her grandson.

2:13

She says, in life, there are two wolves

2:15

inside of us that are always at battle. One

2:17

is a good wolf, which represents things like

2:20

kindness and bravery and love, and

2:22

the other is a bad wolf, which represents

2:24

things like greed and hatred and fear.

2:27

And the grandson stops and thinks about it for a

2:29

second, looks up at his grandmother and he says, well, grandmother,

2:31

which one wins? And the grandmother

2:33

says, the one you feed. So I'd like

2:35

to start off by asking you what that parable

2:38

means to you. In your life and in the work

2:40

that you do well. It's a beautiful

2:42

parable. I've heard many versions of it,

2:45

and the one I'm remembering is from

2:47

the Cherokee tribe. It's

2:49

an grandfather talking to a

2:51

grandson. But you know how these

2:53

things go, we turn it around, you

2:56

know, they go through like the can listening

2:58

and they come up with the inversion.

3:00

So I don't know what it is, but the point

3:03

of it is so powerful and

3:05

and what it means to me, especially

3:08

lately, is that

3:10

the polarity of the good one

3:13

and the bad one, uh,

3:15

you know, is really both of coming

3:17

from our mind. So

3:20

um, part of what I'm really

3:22

sensitive to at this time in my

3:24

life is really

3:26

befriending both the good

3:28

and the bad thoughts are,

3:31

you know, beliefs and things that raise through

3:33

our mind, and not being

3:36

attached to one being better than

3:38

the other, because they all come

3:40

and go with regularity.

3:43

You know. I work with the bad wolf, so

3:45

to speak, in a in a loving way,

3:47

in a way that is not making

3:50

it wrong, because the minute I make it

3:52

wrong, it has to act out more

3:55

to get my attention. But when I

3:57

welcome it and sit with it

3:59

and be come more curious about what

4:02

the disturbance is and how it's

4:04

running through my mind, heart and body,

4:07

just like how the good wolf, you

4:10

know, the good thoughts and beautiful things

4:12

run through my body. I have to develop

4:14

a tolerance for that also, because

4:16

sometimes I can have an allergic reaction

4:19

to good things and want

4:21

to move through that quickly. But

4:23

mostly what I'm doing these days in

4:25

my life is holding both in

4:27

my heart with a sense of curiosity

4:30

and non attachment. That curiosity

4:32

is so important. Yeah, I think

4:34

it's important because without

4:36

it, we're just an automatic pilot,

4:39

right we're just like believing our

4:41

thoughts and moving through the world like

4:43

it's absolute, and then separating

4:45

the good and the bad wolf becomes externalized

4:48

and we see good and bad people, and good

4:51

and bad cultures and good and bad races,

4:54

and we don't get to understand

4:56

the subtlety of mind that

4:58

is projecting on what

5:00

arises in our view and our and

5:03

our consciousness. So I

5:05

think it's a good calling, especially

5:08

when when the good and bad are extreme,

5:11

you know, that's when it we get gripped the most,

5:14

you know, to really back

5:16

up a little bit and just gentle,

5:18

be a bit gentle and

5:20

curious about how

5:23

the experience is being lived

5:26

in the heart, body and minds, and just

5:28

to relax with that without

5:30

taking action, without feeling like you got

5:32

to go do something. Um, just

5:35

really feeling into

5:37

this thing, these two

5:39

wolves and maybe having to have a conversation

5:42

with each other, you know, when the bad wolf

5:44

thoughts come up, we can call in the good wolf

5:46

to kind of talk some sense into

5:49

that guy. That's how I'm working with that. So

5:51

you say that racism is a heart

5:53

disease, Explain what

5:56

you mean by that, Well, it's rooted uh

5:59

and my having open

6:01

heart surgery at the age of seven,

6:04

where um, I realized

6:06

that so much of what I had been doing up to

6:09

that point was just really running

6:11

around in righteous rage. My

6:13

first book was about rage, you know, and

6:16

you know, being so right in the world

6:19

about how I felt and

6:21

saw who was wrong and the

6:23

racist this and that, and Um,

6:26

I'd realized how to

6:28

be with my upset and

6:30

before I knew it because

6:33

of a hyperactive thyroid. UM

6:35

diagnosis that I had had

6:38

a hyper thyroid that had gone

6:40

on diagnosed for many years, which

6:43

enlarged my heart, which

6:45

contributed to the need to have

6:48

open heart surgery for a micro valve

6:51

prolapse, and in the course

6:53

of this surgical

6:55

procedure, I became

6:58

aware that it was more a spiritual

7:00

intervention that was

7:03

suggesting to me that I needed to

7:05

reevaluate how I

7:07

went about living my life, which

7:10

up to that point had just been righteous

7:13

rage run amuck.

7:15

And it was in the recovery of the heart surgery

7:18

that I got in touch with how matters

7:20

of the heart was really my work

7:22

in the world to do, and so

7:25

uh it took a while for me to

7:27

realize what that actually meant

7:30

lived out loud, but I

7:32

often say to people that the recovery

7:35

from the heart surgery was my first

7:37

silent retreat because

7:39

I got a chance to really listen to

7:41

how much hate I was

7:44

embodying, and a lot of it

7:46

was wrapped around race.

7:48

The rage was wrapped around race,

7:51

and my body was just riddled

7:54

with such upset that I

7:56

needed to vacate the premises. And

7:58

I vacated the premise is using rage

8:01

as an exit route until

8:03

I couldn't do that anymore, and then I

8:05

had to thaw out. I thought out

8:08

into a realization that I had to make

8:11

a different deal with the disturbance I

8:13

was in, and that it required

8:15

tenderness that it required a

8:17

lot of care, that it

8:20

required me befriending the upset,

8:22

the bad wolf, if you will, in a

8:24

loving way. And in the course

8:26

of that, I stepped into mindfulness

8:29

meditation and that became a

8:32

real tool for me, being able to sit

8:34

with the upset in a loving way

8:37

and to hold it and see it

8:39

as energy moving through the body,

8:42

as beliefs that I didn't have to necessarily

8:44

agree with or do anything with this

8:47

gradual process that I entered

8:49

into, this healing if you will,

8:52

really spoke loud to me about

8:54

how race is

8:57

so entangled with the heart and

8:59

matters of the heart that I

9:01

call it, you know, a heart disease, a

9:03

global heart disease, and it's curable

9:05

through our awareness, through our

9:08

care um and through

9:10

this kind of tenderizing our gentle

9:13

ng that I talk about that's

9:15

so important as medicine

9:17

that supports us and being able to tolerate

9:20

this conversation, being able to

9:22

keep our heart engaged when

9:24

we're having this conversation. Uh,

9:27

it just requires a lot of love basically.

9:31

UM, So I bring that

9:33

to this. You know, phrase

9:35

of racism is a heart disease, and it's

9:37

curable it's not easy,

9:40

it's messy as hell, but it is possible

9:43

to transform internally that

9:45

shifts our view and shifts our

9:47

relationship to our

9:50

understanding of what race and racism

9:52

is. You talk about early on that when

9:56

any of us, people of color

9:59

or non here the word racism,

10:01

where we start to think about it, something happens,

10:03

you say, we, you know, we get alarmed, and

10:05

then whether we're conscious of it or not, we tend

10:07

to go to our weapons

10:09

of choice, which each of us have. You know, you mentioned

10:12

aggression in your case, or hatred, you

10:14

know, distraction, denial, doubt, worry,

10:17

depression, indifference. Really

10:20

like that summary to realize that how that word

10:22

triggers all of us and

10:25

we all have habitual patterns

10:28

of of how we think about it, and

10:30

that that for all of us

10:32

are habitual pattern doesn't

10:35

serve us as well as it could, or doesn't

10:37

service as well as a

10:39

pattern that is more current. Let's

10:42

say that, yeah, because the habitual

10:44

pattern is oftentimes a layer

10:46

on top of what the real deal is

10:49

that we're experiencing that we

10:51

can't tolerate, by the way,

10:53

so it's a defense mechanism. And

10:56

I think that, um,

10:58

after a while, you

11:00

know, if we're really interested in in deepening

11:02

this our understanding of this topic,

11:05

we we have to be willing to step

11:07

into that zone of

11:09

of what's underneath

11:12

our habituation, are

11:14

our habits uh,

11:16

and really understand it and then

11:19

be willing to kind of let it go,

11:21

you know, or or move it to the side,

11:24

so that we can see a bigger picture, um

11:27

and entertain a bigger story about what

11:29

this is about. One of the

11:31

most striking parts

11:33

of the book for me was

11:35

this idea that that you bring

11:38

up and I'm just I'll just read what you say.

11:40

A common disconnection between people of color

11:42

and whites is that the former tend

11:45

to experience the world through group identity,

11:47

whereas the latter tend to experience

11:50

the world through individual identity.

11:52

White people generally think of themselves as well

11:54

meaning, hard working individuals, unaware

11:57

of themselves as a racial group.

12:00

And boy, did that really strike

12:03

me and hit home. And you

12:05

go on to say that part of white privilege

12:08

is the ability to identify or not

12:10

identify racially, whereas

12:13

people of color, it's not really that case

12:16

that racial identity is so strong. It's

12:18

part of the world that you swim

12:20

in and and as white people, we can choose

12:23

to either be a part of being white or

12:25

distance ourselves from being white. And I just thought

12:27

that was very profound. I had

12:29

never thought of that before in quite that way.

12:32

Oh. Yes, that's one of the most common

12:35

and painful ways that we

12:37

miss each other when we try to have a conversation.

12:40

Um, you know, white people come to the conversation

12:43

and this certain innocence and

12:45

Um, an individual, you know, I'm

12:47

a good person. Uh. And

12:50

Um, I didn't do anything. I wasn't living

12:52

in that time. Um, I'm

12:54

here now, you know, as if there's no

12:56

rude rootedness and

12:59

the history, the lineage of the people,

13:01

the collective people are that

13:03

we've been touched by our lives and the

13:06

and the generations of people that helped

13:08

us get here. Uh. And whereas

13:10

people of color are aware of being good

13:12

individuals as well as being racial

13:15

identity groups. Because part of

13:17

being a subordinated group racial

13:21

group in this country especially, but

13:24

I think is more broadly than this country.

13:26

You know, part of being a subordinated

13:28

anything, whether it's a race, a

13:31

woman, a gay person,

13:34

you know, a poor person. The

13:36

dynamic of subordination is

13:39

that what groups us together

13:41

is that we share oppression and

13:44

dominant groups. Whether it's it's

13:46

white people, or its men, or

13:49

it's heterosexuals or its Christians.

13:51

I mean, there's a lot of you know, those categories.

13:54

The characteristic of dominance is that you

13:56

don't have to look you just

13:58

don't have to look at yourself as a group because

14:01

because you just don't have to, and so you

14:03

don't. But this is particularly

14:06

painful when we're talking about race.

14:08

It's it's kind of the piece that will

14:10

support what I believe will be

14:12

a transformation around this conversation

14:16

when white people get together with other

14:18

white people and explore the territory

14:21

of whiteness that every other race

14:24

seems to know a bit about but

14:27

them. And what this means is that I

14:29

work with a lot of white people that are in what

14:32

I refer to as racial affinity groups,

14:34

and it's so difficult for them because

14:37

they talk about, uh, you know,

14:39

we get together and I don't feel anything,

14:42

and I'm bored and what

14:44

we don't have anything to talk about, and

14:46

you know, and the tendency is to go

14:49

off and join a cause or

14:51

to have other people of color educating

14:53

you about what's needed.

14:56

How do we fix it? But there's a

14:58

lot of avoidance among people

15:00

to talk about whiteness, and I think

15:03

that's a very interesting

15:05

place to begin this journey.

15:58

You say that white people

16:01

may never have as much experience as people

16:03

of color and talking about racial distress

16:05

and racism, but they must start,

16:08

especially if they are in leadership

16:10

positions. And you know me, I

16:12

mentioned we've had Austin Channing Brown on

16:14

the podcast, and I'm trying to have more of these

16:17

conversations um

16:19

as a way of trying to

16:21

engage in that debate in a in

16:24

a useful and healthy

16:26

way. Tell me about a little

16:28

bit more tell the listeners, because I know because I read

16:30

the book about racial affinity groups, because

16:32

that was a very interesting idea that

16:34

I had not really heard of. And

16:36

the book spends a fair amount of time talking

16:39

not only about what they are, which you're gonna tell us,

16:41

but also how to have one.

16:44

I just want to have that concept out there in in

16:46

in listeners ears if it's something they're interested in.

16:48

Very good. Well, first of all,

16:51

you know, uh, it's important

16:53

to understand these six

16:55

hindrances that I talk about in

16:58

the book, UM,

17:00

so that there is something to get

17:03

our arms around and

17:05

discussed within the racial

17:07

affinity groups. So there's some education

17:09

we need about the structure of

17:11

racism that's in our social

17:13

realm. There's a structure to it that we can

17:16

begin to recognize and

17:18

not only see out there, but see our

17:20

relationship to it. And

17:23

when we have that kind of curiosity,

17:25

um, that's alive in us. Forming

17:28

a racial affinity group would be UM

17:31

a simple process of getting

17:33

together with from two to five other people

17:36

of your same race and actually

17:38

with white people, I would say, with your

17:40

with your same gender, because

17:43

sometimes white people get together and

17:45

it's mixed gendered. The

17:47

issues that white women have with white

17:50

men tends to trump

17:52

the discussion around race

17:54

and it becomes more of the upsets

17:56

around gender. So to minimize

17:58

that, I say, you know, white men get together, white

18:00

women get together. However that

18:03

goes, you know by racial

18:05

people get together and just come

18:07

together. Commit for a year

18:11

to meet once a month for

18:13

about two and a half hours. And

18:17

what you're doing in this in this racial

18:19

affinity group, and what I'm offering

18:22

is a mindfulness practice

18:24

of getting yourself still

18:26

and stable together. So

18:28

there's a guided meditation that you would begin

18:31

with, and then there's a series

18:33

of about thirty five or forty questions

18:36

that you would answer over the course of the

18:38

year, and what these questions

18:40

are. Are there inviting us

18:42

to look at our conditioning, look

18:45

at our beliefs, look

18:47

at our long aims, look

18:49

at what's unfinished that we're

18:52

still carrying. Um.

18:54

Talking about the hoops and ouches

18:57

in those places of embarrassment and shame

19:00

with each other. Um.

19:02

So it's really teasing through

19:05

these these kind of tender zones

19:07

where you've been conditioned to believe

19:10

certain things, and looking at your

19:12

anger and whatever it might be

19:14

that can come up. It's there. It's a structure

19:17

that supports us and having a place

19:20

where we can engage this topic. So

19:23

when white people, for example, form

19:25

racial affinity groups, one of the beautiful

19:27

things about it because I also

19:29

suggest people of color forming racial affinity

19:32

groups. But when white people

19:34

learn about whiteness, it takes

19:36

the weight off of people of

19:38

color educating them about whiteness.

19:41

There's certain things that white people can

19:43

do on their own. But you

19:45

know, habitually, you

19:47

know, so many white people that I meet

19:50

don't even think about race unless a person

19:52

of color brings it up. I'm suggesting

19:55

you think about race and you commit

19:57

to your own engagement and educate.

20:00

And there's loads of resources

20:02

out there around whiteness, you

20:05

know, for white people. You

20:07

know, if you don't have to look at those resources,

20:09

you won't. But I'm encouraging a

20:11

structure of tenderness and

20:13

care where there can be a

20:15

mindful uh uh uh, an

20:17

intentional, compassionate

20:20

looking at our conditioning

20:22

around race, so that we can soften

20:25

and forgive and open our

20:28

awareness to see something

20:30

beyond um what's

20:32

often um fear

20:35

and shame that kind of closes

20:37

the lens and the heart closes

20:39

along with it. So the racial

20:41

affinity groups are just a crucial part,

20:44

I think, because it provides a structure

20:47

for us to investigate our

20:49

conditioning and work with that

20:52

in a very intentional way.

20:55

And when we don't have a structure, we

20:57

tend to just not go there. We

21:00

can easily go back into amnesia,

21:03

or we can just work. You know, I

21:05

think our thoughts are all

21:07

there is and um, so

21:10

I think it's very helpful. It's it's it's

21:12

been said to be very helpful for people. Wonderful.

21:15

Let's talk for a minute about you

21:17

know, in order to understand the dynamics

21:20

of racial you call it dominance and

21:22

subordination. We have to look

21:24

at group habits of harm

21:27

rather than looking solely at individual

21:29

acts or single incidents. And I thought that

21:31

was so Another very

21:34

helpful way to think about this is, again,

21:36

as as a white person, I'm familiar

21:38

with the concept of well, I'm

21:40

a good person or I wasn't there, or

21:43

you know, I'm looking at individual actions,

21:45

and you're talking about looking at habits of

21:48

harm. And you use a great metaphor

21:50

for this around um

21:52

stars and constellations because you share

21:55

that with us. Yes, the stores and the

21:57

constellations are one of

21:59

the same hindrances. That's important

22:01

for us to look at. The first one we've talked

22:04

about a bit, which is around

22:06

the white individual as a good person. That's

22:08

the first hindrance. But the second

22:10

one is the stores in the constellations, and

22:13

it goes with individual

22:15

versus group. Now, all of these

22:18

hindrances have to do with racial

22:21

group dynamics, not so much individual

22:24

acts. So the stars in the constellations

22:27

are inviting us to notice

22:29

for ourselves and we can all do this, uh,

22:32

the habits that we tend to

22:34

have around how we view racial

22:37

harm. So one of

22:39

the ways I described this is when Michael

22:41

Brown was killed in Ferguson.

22:44

There was a group of us

22:46

here in Charlotte that got together, a mixed

22:48

group, to talk about the killing.

22:50

The video was showed and we were all asked

22:53

to talk about what we saw and how we

22:55

felt. And there was a white guy

22:57

in our small group of about four or five

23:00

fool who UM spoke

23:02

very um passionately

23:04

and sincerely about how

23:07

you know that man should have never killed

23:10

that boy and left him in the

23:12

streets and this is horrible, and I'm

23:14

just really upset. And he was shaking

23:16

and trembling and crying and he was

23:18

telling his story. UM,

23:21

he saw a star. His

23:23

description of what he saw is what I

23:25

would call a star, A

23:28

single incident described

23:30

UM in the situation. When

23:32

I talked about what I saw, I

23:35

said something like, I can't believe

23:37

that once again, a white police

23:39

officer has killed an unarmed

23:42

black person. And this

23:44

has just gone on way too

23:46

long. And I named several of the

23:48

people that have been killed. UH,

23:51

And I was describing a constellation.

23:55

And I think this is another way that we

23:57

miss each other. Uh. And because of

23:59

what we bring to the table and how

24:01

we've been conditioned to see. So,

24:04

you know, the white guy that's folks saw

24:06

an individual incident. It wasn't even

24:08

colorized in the description and

24:11

the language that he used. It wasn't like a

24:13

white man or a black man. It was that

24:15

man should have never killed that boy. Well,

24:17

to me, it was very textured,

24:20

and it's because of the ways, because

24:22

of the pattern I see the tattoo that's

24:24

out there, the repetitive

24:27

motion injury, the chronic

24:29

nous of this situation. It's a it's

24:31

a big dipper. It's a comic

24:34

in the you know, in the in the

24:36

constellations. So to me, it's

24:39

useful if we're not just seeing

24:42

uh, single incidents,

24:44

because it doesn't have the gravity,

24:47

it lacks an understanding of the

24:49

gristant of the broader

24:51

pain. Uh that's repetitive

24:54

out there. So I think that's

24:56

a difference also in looking at

24:59

it from an individual lens and

25:01

also from a racial group identity

25:04

lens, um that you're part

25:06

of a group and individual wouldn't see

25:08

all these things, they would just see the single incident.

25:11

Another example of this is when people

25:13

talk about all lives matter as

25:16

opposed to Black lives matter. All lives

25:18

matter is an individual

25:21

view. We're all important. Black

25:23

lives matter is speaking to a constellation.

25:27

So these are things we can begin to

25:29

open our hearts and minds to

25:31

to see that it's not just a solo

25:34

incident. It's the patterning,

25:37

uh, that we want to bring some

25:39

attention to and open to. Yeah,

25:41

it makes me think of something that you wrote in the book

25:43

that really was was touching, and you said you're

25:45

talking about a dharma talk you gave. You said, I ended with

25:48

this. The next time you hear of a brown person being

25:50

killed by anyone, stay present

25:52

and say to yourself, oh my, another

25:54

of Ruth's children has been killed. Then

25:56

check in with your own heart to determine the appropriate

25:59

response. That's that's how I

26:01

move in the world as a as a body,

26:04

as a woman, you know, as a lesbian,

26:06

as an author, as a great grandmother.

26:09

You know, I'm concerned about these

26:12

constellations of harm towards

26:15

the bodies of color, and

26:18

you know, and there's probably harm

26:20

within the white body as well. But we're

26:22

looking at the dominant and subordinated dynamic

26:25

here. Um. But

26:27

I don't want to overlook the

26:29

fact that we all have experiences

26:32

of suffering and harm terminology

26:35

question for you here. I was talking

26:37

with someone recently who said that,

26:39

Well, it was my son who said that only

26:41

white people in this country can be

26:43

racist because racism indicates

26:46

a system of oppression. Now everybody's

26:49

prejudiced, but that racism

26:51

is speaking to this you

26:53

know, um constellation of harm that

26:55

we're talking about, or this system

26:58

of oppression. Do you say terminology?

27:01

Yeah, you know, I want to meet your son.

27:04

He's not too far away in North Carolina.

27:07

It really speaks to this this you

27:09

know, the younger generation too, maybe

27:12

that's coming up. That's that seems

27:15

to be, you know, have their fingers

27:17

and a lot of these pots, and

27:19

I think I think it's good news.

27:22

Um. But yes, so I very

27:24

seldom use the word racist because

27:27

racists is

27:30

a word that speaks to individual

27:32

actions. Um and

27:35

um. You know, so it's

27:37

at the individual level. Certainly

27:40

people can have racist behavior

27:43

depending on what they're doing at

27:45

the individual level. Um.

27:47

But racism is at the institutional

27:50

level. It's at the it's at

27:52

the group and beyond level. Racism

27:55

I associate very much with policies,

27:58

practices, social norm

28:00

um, political systems.

28:02

Who's you know, when the dominant system

28:05

is white, white supremacy

28:07

is an expression of racism

28:10

in the sense of its intentionality.

28:12

UM, the ault right movements,

28:15

um the uh, you know, white

28:18

nationalist movements that are concerned

28:21

about staying on top or examples

28:23

of racism racist intention

28:26

whether. But racism

28:29

in our social structure is

28:31

when it becomes institutionalizing. It

28:33

becomes normal that we see

28:35

black folks killed with regularity.

28:38

You know. It's normal that most

28:40

of the people in the prison industrial complex,

28:43

the profiting complex, the

28:45

disaster capitalists complex,

28:48

uh is full of is brown

28:51

bodies. You know. So these

28:53

are examples of racism

28:56

as they live in our social context.

28:58

Their norms, practices,

29:01

policies, blind assumptions,

29:04

you know, a police institution,

29:07

and the habitual pulling of the

29:09

trigger. Uh, you know. And racism

29:12

is not something I think we all need to

29:15

try to avoid recognizing

29:17

our associating with. I think it's

29:19

something we need to you know, kind of embrace

29:21

and be curious about, because if

29:23

we're afraid of being a racist or

29:26

being a part of a racist system,

29:28

being being a part of racism, then

29:31

it's very hard to you know, we're ashamed

29:33

of that, it's very hard to investigate

29:35

it, to really understand it. More

29:37

deeply um. But yeah,

29:40

it's part of it's it's more

29:42

of a collective um

29:44

um dynamic and

29:46

and reality and our social

29:48

realm. You know, who do you see on television

29:51

most when you turn on the news, who's got

29:53

positions of power? Most? When you

29:56

look at when you go to your doctor, who are most

29:58

of the lawyers? You know, you can see the

30:00

economic influence of it as well

30:02

as the cultural piece.

30:04

But I associate racism with culture

30:08

and with the ways that

30:10

norms and practices

30:12

and policies and beliefs are embedded

30:15

in the social fabric that

30:17

we all are breathing that air and

30:20

swimming in that water together. You

31:05

know. I think one of the reasons that people tend

31:08

to avoid things, whether

31:10

it be common, run of the mill procrastination

31:13

like my task list or bigger

31:15

things, is when things feel way

31:18

too big to tackle, you

31:21

know, when something feels overwhelming, our tendencies

31:23

to walk the other direction. And

31:25

when we talk about race

31:28

in the sense of a racist

31:30

a person, you think, well, if we could

31:32

just get that person to change how they

31:34

feel, well, that feels like okay,

31:37

I could step up to the plate there. When

31:39

we start talking about this racism

31:42

as this overwhelming.

31:44

You know, the water that we swim in. How

31:46

do people not you know, I even feel

31:49

it in myself When I start to think about

31:51

all of that, I go, oh, she's that's you

31:53

know, I can think about changing a heart or

31:55

two, right,

31:57

So what's your reaction to that. Well,

31:59

I think it's a really good question

32:01

and a common one, and I think we have to start

32:03

with changing our own hearts because

32:06

I think that's really the fundamental

32:09

ground of waking up

32:11

around this. Again, That's why

32:13

I talk about it as transforming

32:16

from the inside out, because that's where

32:18

we get in touch, very intimately

32:20

with the mechanism of changing

32:23

our habits. And this is where a

32:25

mindfulness practice can be most helpful,

32:29

because it allows you to sit with

32:32

what's involved in softening

32:35

into opening up. You

32:37

know, when we get ourselves still,

32:39

when we set our intention, Hey, I'm

32:42

gonna take this on. I'm

32:44

gonna give this some real daily

32:46

time. I'm gonna be paying attention

32:48

to my habits, to my thoughts

32:51

around race. I'm

32:53

gonna be involved in a racial affinity

32:55

group for support and

32:57

to know I'm not in this alone. Um,

33:00

I'm not gonna commit to doing

33:02

a bunch of actions just yet going

33:04

to give myself a few months just to be

33:06

with my own kind

33:08

of unfolding and awareness around

33:11

this. So I think that's a place

33:13

that we begin. And I

33:16

also, you know, I coach

33:18

a lot of educators and meditation

33:20

teachers and uh

33:22

DORMA teachers, and one of

33:25

the things I say to them, and these are a lot

33:27

of them are white, and one of the things I

33:29

say to them, if you're doing your own

33:31

investigation around race, if you're

33:33

bringing it and dropping it right

33:35

into the seat of your mindfulness practice,

33:39

when you're bringing that disturbance, saying all

33:41

that confusion, all all of

33:43

that anxiety, whatever it is, and

33:45

you're dropping it into your practice, then

33:48

you have some stories to tell about

33:51

how that's going for you, right,

33:54

And when you have some stories to tell,

33:56

that's really all you need to be telling, you

33:59

know. In terms of working with other people, of course,

34:01

there's the institutional level of joining

34:04

organizations and you

34:06

know how you vote in all of that. But

34:08

I think at the interpersonal level, we

34:10

don't have to change anybody. We just

34:13

need to maybe begin to understand

34:15

our own experience and talk about

34:17

it. You know, I think for white

34:19

people it's a good use of privilege to

34:22

talk about race and

34:24

how you're working with understanding your

34:26

race. You know, it's a good use for

34:29

you to have me on this show to be

34:31

exploring this discussion. I

34:33

worked with a guy that um

34:36

was that was in a high position

34:38

and a bank, and when

34:40

the devastation happened

34:43

in Florida with the floods, he

34:46

rented three trucks and

34:49

called a bunch of his friends, most of the

34:51

home he worked with, and they went

34:53

down there to help clear out some

34:56

some of the homes right helping

34:59

people that were stuck

35:02

there. And in the middle of them

35:04

doing that work, he got a call from his

35:06

ball saying, listen, you know

35:08

you're putting us in jeopardy down there.

35:11

You know you're setting a precedent. This is

35:13

not part of our policies. I think you need

35:15

to come back to work right away.

35:18

And he he said, when

35:20

you come down here and see

35:22

what I'm seeing and

35:25

understand what I'm understanding,

35:27

you will understand why I can't leave

35:30

here until I'm done. And

35:32

he hung up the phone. He was piste off

35:35

and that was kind of the end

35:37

of it. There could have been a situation

35:39

where he could have really been in

35:41

trouble, but he wasn't really in trouble.

35:44

He really challenged a

35:46

policy or a belief are

35:49

are a kind of way a norm

35:51

that they had always operated. He challenged

35:54

it with his own authority,

35:56

his own privilege, and said, no,

35:59

that's not what I'm doing. I'm staying here and tell this

36:01

job is done. So we

36:03

all are on that edge as

36:06

as people of taking that

36:08

risk of whether we what I often

36:10

call bid or pass in these situations,

36:13

do I follow my good wolf or my

36:15

bad wolf when I when my heart

36:18

is telling me I have to go to Florida and help

36:20

these families. Whatever it takes,

36:23

I'm gonna you know. So we're

36:25

always making these decisions, whether

36:27

we know it or not. Uh.

36:29

And when we turn a light on that to really

36:31

see and listen to

36:34

and respond from that place,

36:37

that place of care, that place of

36:39

this is something I want to do, This is something

36:41

I can do, This is something

36:43

that will serve Uh.

36:45

It may not fix the whole problem, but it's

36:47

something I can do, something I

36:50

want to do. Uh.

36:52

That's I think that's the zone we're in

36:54

because this is messy. It's not going

36:56

to be fixed in our lifetime. So

36:58

we don't have to bite the whole elephant. We

37:00

can just keep planting seeds

37:03

and knowing that when we plant

37:05

them, it's the future generations,

37:08

it's your son, it's people that

37:10

come after that kind of

37:12

smell a certain fragrance from that

37:14

bloom and say, oh, I

37:16

get it. You know, I can look

37:18

at it this way. Yeah. There's

37:21

another story that you tell in the book about

37:24

UM back to this idea of

37:27

you know, white people tending to see ourselves

37:29

as individuals and not as part of

37:31

a racial group, and and how people

37:33

of color do differently. You tell a story about

37:36

talking with some folks in a in a training

37:38

program you were doing after the two

37:40

thousand sixteen election, where there were a couple

37:42

of white men UM who

37:45

felt like, you know, I'm being treated as a Trump supporter

37:47

because I'm white. Can you share that story? I thought

37:49

that was very insightful. Yeah. So

37:52

it was these these white guys

37:54

in the training and when I

37:56

was talking about the individual and group, you

37:59

know, uh, that we're all good

38:01

individuals and we're part of racial identity

38:03

group, they both said, you

38:05

know, I'm getting all this flak as

38:08

a white guy because people look at

38:10

me and think I'm I'm just because I'm white,

38:12

I'm a Trump supporter and

38:15

um, so again that's a very individual

38:18

voice. You know, it's not me. I'm

38:20

not one of him, you know. UM

38:23

and I and I basically said, welcome

38:25

to my world, you know. And

38:27

the welcome to my world part is

38:29

that that's what it's like to be

38:31

remembered. Yes, that's what it's

38:33

like to be a racial member. I have

38:36

to manage and most people of color

38:38

have to deal with not only their own

38:41

We're all in this. Most of us

38:43

have to deal with our own experience as

38:46

well as the projections that other people

38:48

place on us. But because

38:50

of the power difference, it

38:53

has different impact. So

38:55

so I'm dealing with all of the

38:57

projections that people place on me as a

39:00

black woman. You know, Um,

39:02

the automatic assumptions that might be

39:05

made about me being a teenage

39:07

mom and you know, growing

39:10

up in south central Los Angeles and all

39:12

these things. You know, people seeing

39:14

that as old poor provity,

39:17

you must have been poor, and it was like, yeah,

39:19

all of that's true. And I

39:21

was raised around all this strength and jazz

39:24

and the civil rights movement and all this passion.

39:26

Right, So I'm dealing with

39:29

what's projected on me as well as my

39:31

lived experience. I'm

39:33

dealing with my individual experience as

39:35

well as my group racial group identity

39:38

experience. White people tend

39:40

to deal with their individual

39:43

experience, but when they're uh,

39:46

racial group identity experience

39:49

is fed back to them there,

39:51

it's like wait a minute, right, you

39:55

know, that's kind of what happened.

39:57

So it was a real moment for these

40:00

to white guys to fall out and

40:03

get that that's what we're

40:05

dealing with. Of course, so

40:07

how are you managing the fact

40:09

that you are a member a number?

40:11

Another spin on this, Eric is

40:13

I think that uh, white

40:15

people have have um, well,

40:17

white people have said to me that another

40:20

reason they don't want to move towards racial

40:22

group identity is because

40:24

they'll be considered maybe a Trump

40:26

supporter, but also, uh,

40:29

you know it's I've heard him say a skinhead

40:32

or or you know, something extreme

40:35

as opposed to the majority

40:38

the majority experiences around

40:41

whiteness that hasn't really been vetted

40:43

or examined. Uh

40:45

So the fear is that it's going to look

40:47

like these extremes, and because they're

40:49

not that they don't go there. But

40:52

I think there's some real value in seeing

40:54

what this experience of of day

40:56

to day ordinary

40:59

white people is really about under

41:02

the under the lens are

41:04

under the inquiry of of race,

41:07

being curious about

41:09

what it's what is the collective

41:11

experience that we

41:13

share as white people could be

41:15

really valuable. I can't think of the comedian

41:18

whose joke is you know, it's it's similar

41:20

to that about how good it is to be a white person,

41:22

and how he could you know, you

41:24

know, as people of color have to be afraid getting

41:26

in a time machine, but as a white person, you didn't get in a

41:28

time machine and end up in any time, and it's

41:30

like, this pretty good time to be alive. I

41:35

also think racial affinity groups

41:37

are also important

41:40

for people of color

41:42

because you know, some of the traps

41:44

we get into our um

41:47

thinking we know all there is to know about

41:49

race. But I just came back

41:51

from Canada, and this is just one example.

41:54

My partner and I traveled through the Canadian

41:56

Rockies and then I stayed

41:58

in for two days and it was amazing,

42:01

And I ended up in Vancouver

42:04

at the end and taught a five

42:06

day retreat their meditation retreat

42:08

there, and being

42:11

in Vancouver was one of the most diverse

42:14

places I've ever been in my life,

42:16

and I've traveled a lot, and

42:18

so people of color sometimes

42:21

we think we know all

42:23

there is to know about race, but we haven't

42:26

really examined the

42:28

body of color that we have

42:30

this presumed solidarity with.

42:33

So what's what what happens with

42:35

us as people of color is we know about we

42:38

know a bit about our own racial group

42:40

identity, but not about other racial

42:42

groups identity in the body of color.

42:45

And so we know a lot about

42:47

our own race. We

42:49

don't know about other

42:52

people of color races. We don't know that

42:54

experience. But in our conversation

42:58

we tend to think it's all club together.

43:02

So for people of color,

43:04

it's important for us to investigate

43:08

what people of color means.

43:11

What does it mean among us as a body

43:13

of color, especially when we come together,

43:16

say in a racial affinity group. What

43:18

is our individual experiences

43:21

of being a race, not so much

43:23

as a collective, but as individuals,

43:27

And how do we understand

43:30

um our our

43:32

diversity within the body of color.

43:35

And this is where my Canadian experience

43:37

comes in of being in Canada

43:40

and working closely with a Chinese

43:42

Canadian there, which is very

43:45

different than a Chinese American who

43:47

had roots. His family roots

43:49

were in the railroad building the railroads

43:52

there, and um, so it

43:54

was it really stretched

43:56

my assumptions about

44:00

Chinese because I was in another context.

44:02

I wasn't an American context. I was in

44:05

Canadian context. And I think

44:07

it's this kind of intimacy

44:09

with the body of color that we need to

44:12

understand and be curious about so

44:14

that we're not making blind

44:16

assumptions and and we're not moving

44:19

just because we have a common enemy. So this

44:21

week the white people, you

44:23

know that we really turn that around and

44:25

look at you know, what is it that we're missing

44:28

out in terms of our own

44:30

connections with each other? Makes

44:32

sense. One of the things Ruth, that we have not

44:35

had a chance to talk about is,

44:37

in addition to all your teachings

44:39

on race, your hell of a dharma teacher,

44:42

and um, we are we are out

44:44

of time here. So you and I are going

44:46

to do it in the post show conversation.

44:48

But you have a little part where

44:50

you talk about the three marks

44:53

of existence that Buddhists talk

44:55

about and a short teaching there that blew

44:57

me away, and I'm really excited

44:59

to talk more about it. Listeners, if you're interested

45:01

in the post show conversation. Go

45:03

to one you Feed dot net slash Support

45:06

and become a contributor and you can hear all

45:08

of those. You can listen to him right in your podcast

45:10

player, and this one, I assure you was going to be worth

45:13

hearing. But Ruth, thank you so much

45:15

for taking the time to come on and to share

45:18

um your book with us in your thoughts. It was very

45:20

helpful for me. Thank you so much

45:22

for having me. Okay, bye

45:24

bye bye.

45:42

If what you just heard was helpful to you, please

45:45

consider making a donation to the One you Feed

45:47

podcast. Head over to one you Feed

45:50

dot net slash Support. The

45:52

One you Feed podcast would like to sincerely

45:54

thank our sponsors for supporting the show.