0:00

Happy New Year and welcome back to

0:02

the product experience . This year

0:04

we are kicking off with People First

0:06

product leadership , and we

0:08

have Diana Stepner who's the head of product

0:11

at the Chan Zuckerberg initiative

0:13

. So for more inspiration

0:15

and to start your year

0:18

on the right foot , let's get

0:20

rolling . Visit

0:31

mindtheproductcom to catch up on past

0:34

episodes and discover loads of free resources

0:36

to help you with your product practice . You

0:39

can also find more information about mind

0:41

, the products conferences and their

0:43

great training opportunities happening around

0:45

the world and online . Hi

1:04

, diana , so great to speak to you

1:06

today . How are you doing ?

1:08

Wonderful , yeah , so thrilled to be speaking

1:10

to you both today as well . It's in

1:12

San Francisco , it is a very rainy day , so

1:15

I feel like I am over in the UK with

1:17

you both , so I'm very

1:19

excited to have the conversation .

1:21

How did you know it was raining in the UK

1:23

? You have like psychic abilities or something

1:25

.

1:27

My husband spoke to his mother yesterday . It

1:29

was raining so I just kind of went with the same .

1:33

It's a safe assumption

1:36

and we're going to be talking

1:38

today about People First

1:40

product leadership . But before we get stuck into

1:42

our topic , it

1:44

would be great if you could give our listeners a

1:47

quick intro to who you are

1:49

and what you're doing in product these

1:51

days .

1:52

Yeah , so I'm Diana Stepner

1:54

. I've been in product for

1:56

a very long time . I went

1:59

through a lot of steps

2:02

and turns and twists , I think , just

2:04

as a typical product person does . You

2:06

know , we all have our own unique paths . For

2:09

me it was I worked at a startup and

2:11

it was done by a whole bunch of engineers

2:13

and the customers were marketers and they just

2:15

didn't really get the engineering

2:18

terminology that kept appearing in the

2:20

product and so eventually

2:22

went back to school , got a degree in human-computer

2:24

interaction and started

2:27

at Salesforce working in

2:29

the product group . But I was a user experience

2:31

researcher . I did UXR and

2:33

just love doing it . Love talking

2:36

to you know the customers , the prospects

2:38

, understanding how we can make the product better

2:40

. What were their , you know , pain points , all those opportunities

2:43

, and I kept turning over these

2:45

ideas , you know , to the product folks and I'm

2:47

like why , why couldn't I do

2:49

this ? Why couldn't I be a product manager and take these

2:51

ideas and bring them to life ? And

2:53

so my my next job was

2:55

as a product person in the UK

2:58

. I moved to the UK and was there

3:00

for about 12 years and just

3:02

started my product journey . You know , after that

3:04

experience and user experience research , working

3:07

along with us , the product managers .

3:08

So been in product ever since nice

3:11

, and what do you do these days ?

3:14

so I am in the product

3:16

team at the Chan Zuckerberg

3:18

initiative . So there's a couple different

3:20

facets to the Chan Zuckerberg

3:22

initiative . So I am in the education

3:24

side , nice .

3:26

And for those who haven't heard of that

3:28

, what does it do ?

3:30

it's a philanthropy that was started

3:32

by Priscilla Chan and Mark Zuckerberg

3:35

, and so there's a number of different

3:37

facets to it . The two main facets focus

3:39

on science as well as education

3:42

. So I'm in the education group and

3:44

we look at K-12 and

3:46

opportunities to bring new technology

3:49

developments to market in

3:51

a way that would have an impact in areas

3:54

that typically may not

3:56

get addressed because there might not be

3:58

a revenue opportunity . But as a philanthropy

4:00

, we can focus more on impact and not

4:02

be as concerned about revenue . So

4:05

we look at how to raise the floor for

4:07

individuals to have access to

4:09

education for all , as well

4:11

as how to raise the ceiling for individuals

4:13

who already have access to education but are

4:15

looking for for more opportunities

4:18

as they're growing and developing

4:20

to to realize who they want to be .

4:22

Amazing . That sounds really interesting

4:24

and I would love to get stuck into

4:27

that , but today

4:29

we're going to be talking about something slightly different

4:31

. So our

4:33

topic is people first . Product

4:35

leadership and I know you run a course

4:37

on Maven on the subject , but

4:40

before we get stuck

4:42

into the details , tell us a little bit

4:44

about what that means to do

4:46

product leadership , people first .

4:49

Yeah , and it's . There's often

4:51

this triad of characteristics

4:53

that product people will reference . It's

4:56

a combination of product

4:59

and people

5:01

and process , and it's

5:03

some organizations . The product

5:05

comes first . That's what you focus on , that

5:07

is everyone's reason for being , and

5:10

just everyone is dedicated

5:12

to the product . There are other organizations

5:15

that are much more process heavy . That

5:17

is how they determine

5:19

what to do , the priorities , how to

5:21

approach things . It's very process oriented

5:23

. And then there are other organizations

5:25

that put the people first and

5:28

look at ways to get the optimal

5:30

impact and outcome from

5:32

the individuals , and so that that's

5:34

where I fall . I believe if you put the

5:36

people first in that combination

5:38

of people , product and process , you'll

5:41

always get amazing products or the best

5:43

potential products , just because

5:45

you're looking at the opportunities for

5:47

people to be true to themselves and to contribute

5:50

their expertise and to learn , and

5:52

I think that shows up very well in the

5:54

product and how it develops and

5:56

thus process . You need some

5:58

, but it's always something that we want to manage

6:00

and not have it be overwhelming . And if the people

6:03

are happy and are working together effectively

6:05

because they all feel that that's

6:07

an opportunity for them to grow and

6:10

to trust each other and to be

6:12

collaborative , then you may not

6:14

need as much process as you would otherwise

6:17

in an organization that put the people

6:19

kind of at the end of the train .

6:22

Dana . I'm curious . Everyone

6:24

thinks they're good at this . Everyone

6:26

thinks they're good at you know , anyone who's a manager

6:29

thinks they're good at managing people . Well

6:32

, not everyone , but quite a few

6:34

. What does it actually mean

6:37

to be good at it , though ? To be putting

6:39

people first , as opposed to

6:41

just thinking you do ?

6:43

Yeah , and I'd say some organizations

6:45

actually don't think that way

6:47

. They think that the people are

6:49

there just in service of the business

6:51

and so you can put

6:53

those people anywhere and just

6:56

have them perform , and

6:58

I don't think that's the right way

7:00

to get the most

7:02

out of individuals , to truly find

7:05

those unique characteristics that

7:07

make us all individuals . I

7:09

think there needs to be more thought in regards

7:12

to what we do and how we do

7:14

it and the roles that we

7:16

may take on in a business . But

7:18

I've seen organizations which are like

7:20

they're people , we can put them anywhere

7:23

and if they can't do it , so

7:25

be it . But they're not thinking

7:27

about what the people want , where they

7:29

want to go in their career , how to best

7:31

enable them to gain that experience

7:34

in the organization , and when

7:36

we really think about the

7:38

impact people want to have , not

7:40

just for the customers or for the business

7:43

, but also for themselves , I

7:45

think you get much more potential

7:48

from the individuals . They're

7:50

much more committed , they're much more excited

7:52

to show up every day and

7:54

I think that is something that , even though

7:56

people think they're doing it , they

7:59

truly are doing it in service , often

8:01

of just revenue and seeing

8:03

the people as you can , just kind

8:05

of , as I said , put them anywhere and they will perform

8:08

, and I've found that not to be the

8:10

case . People are great and they'll try to

8:12

be adaptable , but to really get the best

8:14

out of the people , you need to think

8:16

about them as people first and figure

8:18

out what you can do to help them shine .

8:22

And you said some people you've

8:24

seen some people think that they're doing this

8:26

but they're actually not doing

8:28

it . So

8:31

when I hear that I'm thinking , oh

8:33

yeah , I put people first . But now I'm like , oh

8:35

no , do I put people first ? Like

8:38

what's your first kind of piece of

8:40

advice to people to assess whether you

8:42

really are working from a people

8:44

first position in product leadership

8:46

?

8:47

Yeah , I think a lot of it . A

8:49

lot of it comes down to trust

8:52

and collaboration

8:55

. A lot of organizations

8:57

, when you ask them , you know , how do you deal

8:59

with conflict or how do you

9:01

deal with differences in

9:04

prioritization ? They will

9:06

often say , oh , you know , the highest

9:09

level person makes the

9:11

decision and that

9:13

often is a good sign that

9:16

the individuals may not

9:18

be on top

9:20

of mind that there's some

9:22

other approach

9:24

that the organization has

9:26

to being

9:29

effective . And in

9:31

those organizations where I've seen

9:33

people first , the people

9:36

trust each other , they collaborate . It's

9:38

not a competition . They're

9:40

there to be able to help each other

9:43

succeed in support of the customer

9:45

and the business . But

9:48

you'll find organizations

9:51

where it is competitive , where

9:53

it is rather cutthroat , and

9:56

even though the individuals may feel

9:58

that that is an environment where they are thinking

10:02

about their employees , when

10:04

you take a step back and you think about how they

10:06

make decisions or

10:09

how do they approach partnerships

10:12

or opportunities , it's

10:14

often just again

10:16

seeing people as individuals . You can just cut and paste

10:18

into any scenario

10:20

without really thinking about

10:22

. You know what the person wants

10:25

to be , the skills

10:27

that they want to develop where

10:30

they are in their career and the opportunities that

10:33

will help them progress . They'll oftentimes

10:36

just again put the business first . They'll

10:39

do all the decision making , push it down , and

10:41

people don't have the opportunity to

10:44

really develop

10:46

because they're not given that

10:48

autonomy to be

10:50

and become the people that they

10:53

want to be , not just on a personal level , but on a career

10:55

level too . How did you learn all

10:57

?

10:57

this ? Did

10:59

this come naturally to you , or were you in

11:01

situations where maybe it

11:04

wasn't quite so nice and you had to react

11:06

to it ?

11:07

or yeah , I

11:09

worked overseas for a really

11:11

long time and doing

11:14

so I encountered a lot of different

11:16

cultures and a lot of different

11:19

types of people , and

11:21

I found the most effective way

11:23

to bring those people together

11:25

was to treat them as people

11:28

and to really listen to

11:30

them , to understand what

11:32

it was that they wanted to get out

11:34

of the

11:36

partnership or the consulting agreement

11:39

or the application that they're building . And

11:42

so to me it was a way

11:44

to better understand the different cultures

11:47

and the individuals that

11:49

I was working with , to really get to

11:51

know them as people , so that I could bring those different

11:54

cultures together and enable

11:57

a project to be built in that collaboration . So

12:01

it wasn't something that was just instinctive

12:03

to me and just magically

12:05

happened . It

12:07

was something that I learned over my

12:09

career , just working all around the world and just

12:11

being able

12:13

to look and understand

12:16

and appreciate the nuances that

12:18

are people and to be able to

12:21

bring those amazing characteristics

12:23

together , to have people work

12:25

together effectively and to develop

12:28

a partnership to ideally

12:31

introduce a feature or product or consulting project

12:33

that could

12:35

make everything better , not

12:38

just for the customers or for the business , but also for the people too

12:40

.

12:42

And , diana , I love to hear stories

12:45

from the front line . You know of specifics , like

12:47

of how that's kind of manifested

12:49

for you . Do

12:51

you have anything that you could share with us of like a

12:53

time where you suddenly realise that

12:56

you weren't being people first and you changed

12:59

your approach , or anything like that that

13:01

we could learn from ?

13:03

Yeah , I think when

13:06

I look back over my career , there

13:08

are a couple of instances that

13:11

come to mind , and

13:13

one was at a startup

13:15

that I was at for a very short period

13:17

of time and instead

13:20

of , you know , people working together

13:22

, we had to develop like a 60

13:25

page PRD before

13:27

anybody would talk to each other

13:29

. And that really

13:31

stood out to me as

13:34

a point in time where I

13:36

realized , you know , the business

13:38

had these amazing people , but

13:40

they didn't feel like

13:43

they could talk to each other

13:45

unless a document

13:47

was the the main focus

13:49

. And that was fascinating

13:51

to me . And , like you have these amazing people

13:54

, they have excellent insight . We have , you know

13:56

, the opportunity to speak to customers , but

13:58

the only way that this meeting is going to

14:00

happen is if we have a 60

14:02

page document that will immediately

14:05

be out of date as soon as we have

14:07

this meeting . And so that

14:09

that really stood out to me as a time

14:11

where people weren't first , that

14:14

the process was first , and

14:16

it resonated with me as something

14:19

that really should be

14:21

changed and hopefully

14:23

other organizations learned that

14:25

too . You now see more lean approaches

14:28

than that . You know really extensive

14:30

PRD , so I think others may have encountered

14:33

it too . The other facet

14:35

of it is , you know , again , I've worked

14:37

, you know , in different parts of the world and

14:40

you know , in the US we tend

14:42

to be quite blunt . In other

14:44

countries , folks , you know , will say yes

14:47

to everything , and then you need to encourage

14:49

them to really tell you what you're thinking

14:51

. Other places , they just , you

14:54

know , kind of talk over each other , and

14:56

so it really helped

14:58

me to get to understand the different

15:00

cultures , the nuances , and

15:02

then to bring teams together in

15:05

a way that people had a voice

15:07

, even if you , you know , may

15:09

needed to tease it out a bit , depending

15:12

on the culture , just to be

15:14

able to ensure that everybody had the opportunity

15:17

, you know , to speak up and

15:19

have their value heard . And that

15:21

was something that , just again , as I traveled

15:23

and I worked around the globe , it was important

15:26

because you had a much more

15:28

effective working environment

15:31

when people really feel that

15:33

they they were heard and listened to and represented

15:35

.

15:36

Danyana you talked about earlier . You talked about

15:38

some companies being people-led

15:41

, some people being product or process-led

15:43

. I've also have a friend who talks

15:46

about leading his company through wartime

15:48

and peacetime , which are metaphors I hate

15:50

, but I understand what he , what he's getting at with

15:52

it . I'm curious . You know this

15:54

is something that , as you've gone through your career

15:56

, you found it's worked for you and the teams you lead

15:59

. Does this work for everyone , though

16:01

it is , you know , everyone's different . What ? What

16:04

do you advise when people are trying

16:06

to find their own voice or their own style ?

16:09

Yeah , and I think , exactly as

16:11

you put it , it's finding your own voice

16:13

in your own style , and some

16:15

individuals are very happy to

16:18

be all about you know

16:20

the revenue , all about you know

16:22

the product delivery and

16:24

are very happy just

16:26

to have that be the thing that everyone

16:29

focuses on , and in

16:31

some organizations , that

16:33

that is just the way they they work and

16:36

it's what you sign up for

16:38

, it's what's expected of you and

16:40

so , no , I don't think it's something

16:42

that feels natural or feels

16:44

right to everyone , and

16:47

so it is important to think

16:49

about what's . You know what drives

16:51

you . Are you driven by

16:53

you know just that delivery ? Are you

16:55

driven by the structure ? Are

16:58

you driven by you know the

17:01

people , and I think it's

17:03

an important thing to for people to

17:05

to think about . You know what , what

17:07

motivates them ? You know every single

17:10

day . I have worked with a lot of product

17:12

people who are like I just I just want to release

17:14

a product , that that's all I want to do , and

17:17

I think that's brilliant just

17:19

for me . I found better impact

17:21

, better outcomes when

17:23

I've helped people

17:25

to realize you know what

17:28

they bring to the table and

17:30

how much better the

17:32

product and the outcome could be

17:35

if they worked effectively

17:37

or collaboratively with other people

17:39

, as opposed to just thinking

17:41

about the delivery and

17:44

and not considering the person you'll

17:47

often hear about . You know the missionaries versus

17:49

the mercenaries , and so they're like you said

17:51

. There are a lot of different analogies that

17:53

people play through , but

17:56

again , just in my experience , you

17:58

get better impact , you get better outcomes

18:00

when you really consider what drives

18:03

and motivates the people who are involved

18:05

and for those people who are

18:07

generally more kind of product or

18:09

process focused , what

18:12

advice do you give to to

18:14

try and get more on the side

18:17

of the ?

18:17

the people behind you

18:19

know that make up the team that

18:22

are working on the product , because

18:24

I guess that that will let you say it

18:26

comes much more naturally to some

18:28

than others , and some will come

18:30

quicker to it than others . So are there

18:32

any shortcuts or hacks

18:35

, or or is this

18:37

just a case of practice and

18:39

practice ?

18:40

Yeah , I think the product side

18:43

is probably the most natural

18:45

, because , as a product person , you

18:48

think about the customer and you

18:50

really want to get into the customer's mindset

18:52

to be able to understand

18:55

the reason that they're seeking that

18:57

product , the job to be done , the

19:00

output or outcome that's being

19:02

sought . And so

19:05

, as we instinctively think about the

19:07

customer , I think it's a

19:09

natural adjacency

19:11

to think about the people that

19:13

you're working with on a day-to-day

19:15

basis to be able to deliver

19:18

that product . And

19:20

if you start to think of the people

19:22

as people who

19:24

have good days and bad days and just

19:27

have all those unique characteristics , if

19:30

you start to work together effectively

19:32

as a team that has autonomy

19:35

and is all driving towards

19:38

the best outcome that's possible

19:40

, I think the product can

19:42

be better . And so it's

19:45

applying those principles

19:48

that you already put into thinking

19:50

about the customer , to think

19:52

about your colleagues too , and how

19:54

do you better understand them , and

19:57

to put that into practice when you're working together

19:59

. The process

20:01

piece is probably you know

20:04

it is related to I think they

20:06

all come together very nicely Often

20:09

the process people that I work with or

20:12

have seen they're trying to

20:14

hit a date , they're trying to hit an output

20:16

, and when you think about the

20:18

people and how they work and how

20:20

best they work , you can

20:23

often then meet those

20:25

milestones or deliverables

20:27

that you're aiming for . And

20:29

so , again , by thinking about

20:31

what will get you to that

20:34

process that you have in place

20:36

, what will make that as efficient as possible

20:39

, if you think about how the

20:41

people are going through it , chances

20:44

are it's going to be much smoother than

20:46

if you disregard the people facet

20:49

of it .

20:50

I'm curious , tanya , about things that

20:52

can go wrong . You know , I've seen places

20:54

where people think being people

20:57

first means just saying

20:59

yes to everything and taking

21:01

servant leadership to an extreme . Is

21:04

that a good thing , or is that where you're going with

21:07

this , or what kind of mistakes do you see people make

21:09

?

21:10

Yeah , I mean I've heard the

21:12

phrase servant leadership , similar

21:14

to what you shared before . It's not a phrase

21:16

that I am necessarily a fan

21:19

of . I'm not there to

21:21

be that type of person for

21:23

my team . I'm

21:25

there more to empower

21:27

them , to help them find

21:30

their voice and to be more

21:32

comfortable in their voice and

21:35

in doing that . That doesn't mean

21:37

that I shy away from decisions . It doesn't

21:40

mean that I shy away from bringing people

21:42

together . It doesn't mean I shy

21:44

away from those tricky conversations . But

21:47

I do believe that

21:49

if you give people

21:52

autonomy and help

21:54

them to be empowered

21:57

so that they feel that they can

22:00

make a decision and they can try

22:02

and learn and experiment , I

22:04

think you're creating a culture where

22:07

people feel more comfortable

22:09

to speak their minds

22:11

and to do so in a way that's respectful

22:14

and that

22:16

, to me , has had the best

22:18

outcomes , where people are

22:20

honest and work together as

22:22

opposed to putting up a mask

22:25

and just trying to fit into

22:27

a mold .

22:28

There was a period of time where everyone

22:31

was experimenting or adopting

22:33

radical candor , and people took

22:36

that to mean different things as well . Where

22:38

does that fit into all this ?

22:40

Yeah , it's a great

22:43

question and a great point . There

22:45

are extremes that people

22:47

have taken radical candor . I've seen

22:49

in some organizations where they're like I

22:52

can say anything I want about anything

22:54

at any time , and

22:57

I think that's probably pretty extreme

22:59

. There

23:01

are people that you're

23:03

speaking to and I

23:05

think it's very important to understand

23:08

the impact your words

23:11

could have on that individual

23:13

or those individuals . So

23:15

I don't think you can disregard

23:18

the human . To have radical

23:20

candor be effective , I think

23:22

you need to have empathy

23:25

for the individual that you're speaking

23:27

to and be

23:29

able to put forward

23:31

the words , what you want to say

23:33

, in a way that helps

23:36

the individual to understand the point

23:38

you're making , instead of just

23:41

speaking out and

23:43

disregarding that you're talking to a

23:45

human and just

23:48

not caring what reaction

23:52

or how your words will hit

23:54

them .

23:55

And I guess , kind of on a similar note

23:57

, if

23:59

you're leading

24:01

a team of product people

24:04

and you're

24:06

kind of trying to lead

24:09

with a very people first approach

24:12

, if you're finding

24:15

resistance or you're

24:17

coming up against kind of challenge

24:19

in some of that from a

24:23

member of your team who

24:25

perhaps isn't kind of open

24:27

to that kind of , because it can be quite a sort

24:29

of you know , you have to be quite vulnerable

24:32

, I think in some of those discussions and you have to

24:34

be very sort of open to having

24:36

those discussions . Is

24:38

that a sign that the that

24:40

relationship is not going to

24:42

work and maybe that person needs

24:45

to move on or you need a different approach

24:47

. Or , you

24:49

know , have you come across that before or

24:51

what's your experience ?

24:54

Yeah , I think any

24:56

type of organization , it takes

24:58

time for people to gel and

25:01

so when you you

25:04

know , through onboarding for example

25:06

, you have the opportunity to introduce

25:08

the culture to new individuals

25:10

. I think that really helps to

25:12

set the stage around how people

25:14

interact , the expectations

25:17

that are placed on individuals . So

25:19

I think right from the beginning of joining

25:22

a company you have an opportunity

25:24

to help people you know , understand

25:26

how to work effectively

25:28

with others . But

25:30

if you want to go even earlier , I mean

25:32

thinking about interviewing or

25:35

the types of companies that you want

25:37

to work at . I mean , some

25:39

of the questions that are given people to

25:41

ask is you know how are decisions made

25:43

, how are mistakes

25:46

treated ? When

25:48

was the last time that a goal was

25:50

not met and what happened ? And

25:53

so helping to get an understanding

25:55

of those , those awkward moments

25:58

that happened to all of us . How

26:00

does a company deal with that ? Do

26:03

they , you know , tarnish the individual

26:06

for whatever reason ? Do they hide

26:08

from mistakes ? Do they not

26:10

feel that you know they could have had

26:12

a conversation to talk

26:15

about the learnings , as

26:17

opposed to just negating

26:19

all the hard work that was done and just

26:21

focusing on the outcome not

26:23

being achieved ? So I think

26:25

there is questions you can also ask

26:27

even before joining a company that

26:30

will help you understand the

26:32

type of environment that you're about to enter

26:34

.

26:35

For people who are listening to this . What's you

26:38

talked about ? Onboarding , and

26:40

that's a really key point . But

26:42

whether it's onboarding or leader

26:45

in the journey for the people

26:47

on the team , what are practical

26:49

things that they could start doing , you know , today

26:51

, tomorrow and putting into action that

26:53

would make a difference here ?

26:55

Yeah . So if you're , you're already in a company

26:57

. I think it's an opportunity

27:00

to Think about how

27:03

do you give everyone a voice , and

27:05

there are a lot of tools that really

27:08

help with that now . And

27:10

so if you're in a remote environment

27:12

or in a virtual Environment

27:15

sorry , remote ritual , but you might

27:17

be hybrid , you might be

27:19

in person so I think there

27:22

are tools that really help that have been

27:24

introduced . I mean , fig jam is one

27:26

of my favorites , muro is another

27:28

great one mural , and

27:30

to have those opportunities for

27:33

everybody to contribute , I

27:35

think that's extremely valuable and

27:37

much more accepted now Then

27:40

it then it used to be . You create

27:42

a fig jam and people talk about a retrospective

27:44

, or they do team

27:46

charters together , and that

27:48

key point is together , you

27:50

allow Everybody the time

27:52

and the space to put forward their

27:55

thoughts Equally , and

27:57

I think that is really , really important

27:59

. Similar , you know we're in a zoom

28:02

or in another type of virtual environment

28:04

. The opportunity here to raise

28:06

your hand or to do those emojis or

28:08

to put a comment into chat Means

28:11

you don't always need to speak up , and

28:13

I think that creates more . It

28:16

gives everyone more of an equal chance

28:18

to be able to participate , and

28:20

so , again , I think there are a lot of tools that

28:23

have enabled Different types

28:25

of personalities to come together

28:27

more effectively than

28:29

maybe a couple years ago

28:31

In person . How

28:34

do you apply those characteristics ? So

28:37

, if you're in a meeting and you're all in person

28:39

, you know , taking an opportunity to write

28:41

things down on a sticky note and Put

28:44

them up on a board for people to all

28:46

have participation , because

28:48

I often find in environments it's

28:51

the loudest person wins , or

28:53

the person who complains the most who is heard

28:55

, and so

28:57

trying to think of ways to

28:59

give everybody an equal

29:01

opportunity to have a voice Resonates

29:05

if you're in person or hybrid or remote

29:07

, and just

29:09

thinking of the tools and the techniques

29:11

to be able to do so .

29:14

Diana , I think we have time for maybe just

29:16

one more question . It's

29:18

flown by so quick , but

29:21

we've kind of talked about this

29:23

in the context of , you know , product leader , managing

29:26

a team of product people . But

29:30

does this differ at all when you're working

29:32

kind of peer to peer or with the leadership team , and

29:36

how have you kind of used this approach across

29:39

other aspects of the business ?

29:42

Yeah , I've often my

29:45

career has been in product management and

29:47

so for me , the starting point and been in product management . The

29:51

other reason for it is I've found a

29:53

lot of product people want to start a company . It's

29:56

kind of what they're looking to do . They have all these different skills

29:58

that they're bringing together , and

30:02

so for me it's been

30:04

like how do you help people build those skills that they

30:06

want to acquire To

30:10

be able to do that next thing

30:12

? If it's their next job or it's their next step to becoming

30:14

a CEO or being part of a founding team , that's

30:16

often what they're aiming for . So how do you

30:18

help them develop those skills ? They

30:21

really appreciate that acknowledgement as a person Beyond

30:26

just someone who's you know , building

30:28

a product or going through a process With

30:33

other parts of leadership . Yes , I think it

30:35

really does have the potential to be a game

30:37

changer . Some companies so

30:40

I'll put it quite bluntly have this policy

30:42

of no assholes and I really think

30:44

that's , you know , a blunt example of it . Some companies

30:48

will look and say they're an amazing performer

30:50

, they contribute and they just

30:53

, you know , nail it in regards to delivery , but

31:01

they don't recognize the person is destroying the culture

31:03

or really having a negative impact on the team , and

31:06

I think now we're starting to see

31:08

more companies Ignoring

31:11

the culture and the people that are working on it , and he's acknowledged

31:13

. You don't need those assholes , even

31:16

if they're amazing Deliverers

31:18

or amazing at their craft . The

31:20

damage that they do Impacts

31:23

everyone in the organization , and

31:26

so the organization shouldn't be sacrificed

31:28

just for that individual .

31:31

Diana , thank you so much for joining us

31:33

. It's been so great to talk to

31:35

you today , thank you .

31:37

Yeah , it's been wonderful to speak to you both as well

31:39

. Thank you for the opportunity .

31:50

The product experience is the first Podcast

31:55

from mind the product . Our

31:57

hosts are me , lily Smith , Louron

32:02

Pratt is our producer and Luke Smith

32:04

is our editor . If

32:27

there's not one near you , maybe you should think

32:29

about starting one . To find out

32:31

more , go to mind the product . Comm

32:33

forward . Slash product tank .