0:00

Hey , Randy , no jokes today because

0:02

we're going to be talking about quite a serious

0:04

topic burnout and

0:07

, more generally , stress .

0:09

Billy , this comes up almost every time

0:11

I get together with a group of product people , so

0:13

I'm really glad that we're spending

0:16

some time talking about it .

0:18

And I guess we like to think of ourselves

0:20

as the mum and dad , or maybe

0:22

the cool auntie and uncle , of this

0:25

glorious product community and

0:27

we really want to take care of you

0:29

all and make sure you all feel good about your

0:31

work .

0:32

But you know , unfortunately that doesn't

0:34

happen all the time , and Dominic

0:37

Yost , head of product at Duist , is

0:39

here today to share his story of how

0:41

he experienced burnout , how

0:44

he's recovered and how he now

0:46

manages both his own stress and

0:48

looks out for the people around him .

0:50

This is a heartfelt episode , so

0:52

please give our amazing guest , Dominic

0:54

, all the love for sharing his story .

0:59

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product tank meetups in more than 200 cities

1:36

. There's probably one near you , Dominic

1:40

. Thank you so much for joining us today . How are you

1:42

doing ?

1:43

I'm excellent . Thanks for having me . I'm super excited

1:45

to be here .

1:47

Well , we're really excited to have you . And

1:49

just so everyone knows why we're excited

1:51

, do you mind doing a quick introduction ? Tell us how

1:54

did you first get into product and what are

1:56

you doing these days .

1:57

I would say my transition to product was

1:59

pretty typical . So I started out as

2:01

a software engineer many

2:04

, many moons ago and

2:06

somehow along the lines I

2:08

got to know that there's this other thing called product

2:10

management , which sounded way cooler than actually

2:13

coding . So I transitioned

2:15

over to product management and

2:18

, yeah , never looked back and today

2:21

I'm the head of product at Doist

2:23

. We're a company building

2:25

productivity software like

2:27

Todoist Hopefully everybody knows

2:29

of that and Twist , which is a team

2:32

messenger app .

2:45

I want to say lovely , it was a really touching talk when we last hung out together in Lisbon

2:48

towards the end of last year , talking about stress and burnout

2:50

and your experiences with it . But before

2:52

we talk about you and talk

2:54

about how you dealt with it and the lessons other

2:56

people can take from it , I'm curious . You

2:58

know , whenever I get together with

3:00

people , whenever I'm coaching people , I

3:03

see a lot of people talking about stress and

3:05

burnout in our profession . Why

3:07

is it ? Do you think that so many product

3:09

people suffer from this , or is that actually

3:11

accurate ? Am I just

3:13

projecting ?

3:15

Yeah , like to be honest , I'm

3:17

not quite sure , but I have a theory . I

3:20

think product management is one of those roles

3:23

that has this

3:25

imbalance between

3:27

a lot of accountability , a lot

3:29

of responsibility and then also

3:31

a lot of ambiguity

3:33

when it comes to the definition of what

3:36

the job actually is . So you've

3:38

got objectives to chase , you've got

3:40

KPIs to hit and it's not quite

3:42

sure how exactly you're going to do that , and

3:44

you're relying on a lot of other people

3:46

doing their part for you to be successful

3:48

. And then I think , also

3:51

adding to that , is most

3:53

PMs that I've gotten

3:56

on over the last couple of years also

3:58

have this obsessive drive

4:00

. You know to be the best and

4:02

to sort of meet the standards

4:05

of what everybody else seems to be talking about in terms of you know to be the best and to sort of meet the standards of

4:07

what everybody else seems to be talking about in terms of you know

4:09

they're doing their okay hours this way and doing their

4:11

okay hours that way , and and this thought

4:13

leader said this , and that's what thought leader

4:15

said that . So I think it's just like a very

4:18

it's an environment that

4:20

that doesn't help right

4:22

, and that's why I think a lot of us talk about

4:24

this because , uh , it doesn't take , um , yeah , it doesn't help , right , and that's why I think a lot of us talk about this because

4:26

it doesn't take , yeah , it

4:29

doesn't take much to really get to that point

4:31

where you're starting to ask all these questions , or

4:33

burnout and stress

4:36

, and I think one of the things

4:38

you looked into is the

4:40

, the sort of different components of stress

4:42

.

4:42

So talk us through sort

4:44

of what you found out about . What makes

4:47

up stress ?

4:48

Yeah . So the I have to say that those

4:50

components like I didn't invent any

4:52

of this right , everything

4:55

that I learned and that I'm sharing is something

4:57

that I picked up during my own therapy

4:59

sessions . So

5:01

, for instance , this particular three

5:04

component , um , or

5:06

this composition of stress , is

5:08

based on a professor , dr

5:11

gert kalusa , I think he's german

5:13

or maybe he's austrian , and I've

5:15

since noticed that a lot of other professor

5:18

doctors so and so have similar models

5:20

. So maybe it's like a public domain thing

5:22

, but yeah it's . It's

5:24

essentially three parts and

5:27

if you know how like

5:29

a very simple process works , where you've got

5:31

an input and then a thing

5:33

that transforms an input into an output

5:35

, you can sort of visualize how those three components

5:38

are sort of put together . So

5:40

the first component is stressors

5:42

, so those are external signals

5:45

that you most of the time don't have

5:47

an influence over . So things

5:49

that happen that sort of trigger

5:52

you in some way or another . And then the second

5:54

component are personal amplifiers

5:56

. So that's

5:58

essentially the makeup of who you are

6:00

as a person , all the experiences that

6:02

you've lived through , how your brain works , who

6:05

you are as a person , all the experiences that you've lived

6:07

through , how your brain works , because

6:12

that's what takes those stressors and then turns them into some sort of physical or emotional

6:14

reaction , which is the third component . So you've got the stressors , you've got your amplifiers

6:16

and then you have the reactions . And

6:18

yeah , just decomposing

6:20

stress into those three components

6:23

, I think is already a big step , or at

6:25

least was a big step for me , in order

6:27

to manage my stress levels

6:29

a lot better .

6:31

And I guess from what you were saying

6:33

earlier around you know your sort

6:35

of hypothesis , if you will , of

6:37

why product people experience

6:40

burnout more than others

6:42

potentially burnout

6:48

more than others potentially , or at least as as much as some , that uh , you know the

6:50

stresses then being that kind of demand of expectation

6:53

and ambiguity , and then

6:55

also the personal amplifiers

6:57

being the expectation of yourself

6:59

and and the kind of the demand that

7:01

you put on yourself and then the reaction

7:04

being burnout . Is that a

7:07

good interpretation of those three

7:09

different components ?

7:11

Yeah , yeah , I think that is . That's

7:13

the best TLDR I've heard ever

7:15

, so yeah .

7:17

Phew , I got it right . I've passed the class

7:20

.

7:23

Dominic , tell us a little bit about

7:25

your experience . I mean , you were really brave

7:28

and generous in sharing it at

7:30

the conference and I know you've done it at other talks

7:32

but

7:34

there was a specific day where you

7:36

realized , oh my god , this is something

7:39

right .

7:41

Yeah , yeah , absolutely . I'm

7:43

not sure about the brave part , um

7:45

, but thank you anyway , um . So

7:48

the um , that specific date is

7:51

, I would say that's

7:53

sort of the pinnacle of everything

7:55

that came before . So it's not when the

7:57

stress and the burnout started

8:00

, but it was , more of you know , when everything

8:02

sort of started to crumble together

8:04

and led to me

8:07

having to take time off work , going

8:09

into therapy and then sort of getting back

8:11

.

8:13

So let me ask you when I saw you do this talk , you

8:15

talked about that day and your experiences

8:17

on that day . Can we ask what was leading up

8:20

to it in terms of had you noticed some

8:22

of this going on and it just changed . What was the experience

8:25

like and it just changed what ? What was the experience like and then what

8:27

changed ?

8:28

yeah . So the experience , particularly on

8:30

that day , was like going from

8:33

. So I had a lot of work , you

8:35

know , like like most pms or most people in product

8:37

. Just it was a friday , that I remember a

8:40

lot of work lined up and also a lot

8:42

of work lined up for the next week , and

8:45

I remember just going from okay

8:47

, how do I make everything come

8:49

together on Friday

8:52

and then over the weekend , because we

8:54

always have our weekends to use as a

8:56

working time as well . So

8:59

it went from okay , this is just a matter

9:01

of sort of like

9:03

putting a puzzle together and

9:05

then going from that to . I

9:08

just can't do this anymore . Like it it

9:10

was . It was so instantaneously

9:12

, um , and the best way I can describe

9:14

that transition was

9:16

as if somebody like dimmed

9:19

a light , you know like a lamp

9:21

, and um , it

9:23

wasn't like a explosion

9:26

or like . I've heard so many different variations

9:28

of this . Right , I think that experience

9:30

is super personal . I've heard variations

9:32

from people just not being able to do like

9:35

, move and , you know , do anything . And for me it

9:37

was more of a yes

9:39

, if somebody switched off a couple of lights

9:41

in in the house and um

9:43

, and yeah , it went from . Of

9:46

course you can do it . You know you've done this a million

9:48

times before to . I have no

9:50

clue what I'm doing here and is this worth

9:52

my time and my energy ? And

9:54

like asking a lot of , like very

9:57

important questions , um

9:59

, from one moment to the other and

10:01

and the things leading up to that , yeah

10:05

, I'd say it was . It was quite a

10:07

journey , probably took

10:09

like six to twelve months , like just

10:11

looking back . You know there was a build

10:13

up and , um , you

10:16

know , in hindsight , it was just so

10:19

obvious that I wasn't

10:21

on a healthy path . And

10:23

even like , after I told

10:25

you know my colleagues and teams that

10:27

, yeah , I'm sort of not

10:29

coming back , some of them were like

10:31

, yeah , we sort of saw that coming . You

10:34

know , that's it , it's

10:36

. At the time I found that a

10:39

bit like just not helpful

10:41

and I

10:43

also wondered why didn't you say anything

10:45

?

10:46

And .

10:46

I've since come to realize that this

10:48

has happened with two friends of mine

10:50

where I told them my burnout

10:53

story . They would tell me what they're going through

10:55

and

11:00

I would be able to tell them look , if you don't change what you're doing now , you're going to end

11:02

up in the same situation . And we had great conversations and I thought you know , I figured all

11:04

this burnout stuff out , I told

11:06

them about the three components and everything

11:09

, and then they still , you

11:11

know , weren't able to escape

11:13

quote unquote escape and they burned

11:15

out . So it just

11:17

like for me , one of the takeaways there is it

11:20

doesn't matter who besides you

11:22

figures out that you're on the path , like

11:25

you know , you need to find ways to

11:27

come to that realization yourself , because

11:29

all the changes that you need to

11:31

make , like they start with you , like

11:33

nobody , nobody can make any of

11:35

these changes for

11:38

you . Yeah , so long

11:40

story short . In terms of what the buildup was

11:43

, I think it all came down

11:45

to a couple of things . One was

11:47

in my role as a chief product

11:49

officer . My role changed

11:51

in those two and a half

11:54

years that I was in that role . It

11:56

changed from the definition , changed

11:59

what the company required of that role

12:02

, changed mid-flight . So

12:04

there was already a mismatch there in terms of

12:06

, you know , I'm

12:08

trying to give my best to the company

12:11

and even the way I'm saying it right to

12:13

the company , right . So I'm giving myself

12:15

to the company because there's

12:18

a higher goal

12:20

that I was trying to achieve and , you know , trying to sacrifice

12:23

myself for the team . So

12:25

that was one thing . And then the second one was

12:27

sort of a

12:29

feeling of losing control , if

12:32

that makes sense , because , again

12:34

, you always navigate

12:36

in that area of high

12:38

ambitions , you're trying to

12:41

achieve things , but then also

12:43

, as a product person , you have

12:45

so many pieces you need to juggle and

12:47

most of those pieces are not under

12:49

your direct control . So

12:51

that was the second component . And then

12:53

the third one , which I think for

12:56

me was the biggest one , was

12:58

sort of like

13:01

a drifting apart of values

13:03

, right . So like , yeah , my

13:05

personal values somehow no more aligning

13:07

with the values that the company

13:09

had started to or

13:12

the values that the company had

13:15

, and I always thought that

13:17

was very aligned . But

13:20

then also , yeah , just in those maybe

13:22

one and a half years , all

13:24

these three things started to overlap and come

13:26

together and yeah

13:29

, just looking back , it felt like a huge

13:31

struggle , you know , just trying to keep everything

13:33

in place and trying to be

13:35

brave in front of the team , and

13:38

you know just being like , yeah , you know

13:40

we'll do this , and then obviously COVID hit and

13:42

everything you know . So all

13:45

of these things together , yeah , were

13:47

the build up to that day

13:50

on . Yeah , that Friday , exactly

13:52

the 20th October , I think , or

13:55

September , I'm not more sure .

13:56

Yeah , well , firstly

13:58

, you know , like , as Randy said , thank you so

14:00

much for sharing your story . I imagine

14:02

there's probably a lot of people listening who

14:05

relate to what you're

14:07

talking about . What

14:09

would you like knowing what you know

14:11

now and thinking

14:14

back on that experience ? Like

14:16

, what do you think could

14:18

have been done differently ? Like , would you

14:20

have spoken to people in

14:22

the team , or do you think you needed to just extract

14:25

yourself from that business and that

14:27

role ?

14:29

Yeah , I've been asking myself this question quite

14:33

a few times , and so I

14:35

don't think there's a general answer to this . I don't think there's

14:37

a general answer to this but

14:40

, like in my particular case , talking

14:43

to people was certainly something

14:45

that I didn't do . I

14:47

just tried to figure out stuff by

14:50

myself , and

14:56

so that's definitely something that I'm doing

14:58

differently now . And then the other

15:00

thing was also , you know , just , I was so like

15:02

entangled with my job , but

15:05

it was also intertwined with

15:07

with the job and the company , and

15:10

I think I just found it very hard to

15:12

to not have

15:14

, like , my performance affect my

15:16

personal life , right . So it was

15:18

almost like who I am is also like

15:20

who I am outside of the company is the same person

15:23

who I am in the company , and if

15:25

I'm successful at work , it's of

15:27

me , successful , you know , in life and

15:30

in my personal situation . So those

15:32

, those two identities almost were

15:34

the same thing . So when something

15:36

didn't , um , you know , wasn't working out

15:38

, um , at the company , it

15:41

would also affect , like you know , everything

15:43

outside . So just having a better

15:45

sense of well , that's easier

15:47

said than done , but right understanding

15:50

what my personal values are

15:52

versus what

15:54

, what the company needs , and then also

15:56

just finding that separation and that distance

15:58

, you know , that healthy distance between , yeah

16:01

, not having your self-worth be dependent

16:03

on your performance at work . So

16:06

I think that was like another uh

16:08

big thing uh , which is

16:10

, yeah , easier , easier said than

16:12

done . And then maybe the last thing

16:15

, which which I do think is is

16:17

um , I I believe

16:19

like general advice , like my transition

16:21

from a product director to

16:23

a chief product officer was

16:26

it felt like a linear change

16:29

, but it was more of a step change , a completely

16:31

different job . It had the word product

16:33

in the title , but it it's

16:36

an executive role that happens to

16:38

have product as one of the vehicles

16:40

to do executive work . And

16:42

I don't think Alec fully

16:44

appreciated that step change

16:46

and therefore I also went

16:49

into this job , maybe not as

16:51

prepared as I should have been

16:53

, you know , in terms of coaching , support

16:55

, etc . So I would definitely advise anyone

16:57

who is taken on a role that is

17:00

significantly different than what

17:02

they're currently doing to find a way

17:04

to either self-finance

17:06

your coaching or

17:08

to bake that into that transition

17:11

at work .

17:13

Yeah , I know Will . You're in your

17:15

first proper CPO role and I work with

17:17

a lot of CPOs and a community

17:19

of CPOs . It's

17:22

a totally different job . You're

17:24

not just the thing that got you

17:26

there . Being a really good product person

17:28

is no longer the sum total

17:30

of your job You've got . You're now helping

17:32

to run the company and responsible

17:34

for different things , and

17:36

it's a totally different viewpoint to totally . Yeah

17:39

, I see so many people with with who

17:41

struggle with exactly that transition .

17:44

So just thinking about , um , what

17:46

led to the burnout , again

17:49

, like again , I can imagine people

17:51

listening to this and thinking , you

17:53

know , checking , checking themselves

17:55

and their own situation and

17:58

worrying , like , actually I do

18:00

feel really stressed out , I do feel under

18:03

a lot of pressure . Um , how

18:05

do we assess our own

18:07

situation to understand if

18:10

we're under healthy pressure

18:13

and stress versus unhealthy

18:16

and like heading in the wrong , wrong

18:18

direction ?

18:20

so one thing is definitely thinking

18:22

about stress in those three components and then

18:24

assessing each component individually

18:26

, right ? So if

18:28

somebody says I'm stressed

18:30

, that could mean a lot of different things

18:32

. The first thing

18:34

is , like , where do you feel the stress ? Like

18:37

a lot of people have some sort of bodily pain

18:39

, right back pains , or they get

18:41

headaches , etc . So those are signals

18:43

, um , to listen , uh

18:46

to . But it's almost like

18:48

with leading and lagging indicators , like

18:50

once your body registers the stress , it's

18:52

probably you know , you probably need

18:54

to do something about it . So

18:56

that's one aspect , um , just

18:58

thinking about these three things

19:00

. And then also

19:02

just observing you know how frequent

19:05

they are . Like

19:11

, do you have back pains on very specific kinds of things

19:13

that you're doing ? Right , if you have a board meeting , and then is it like two days

19:15

before that you know your body starts to react . So just

19:17

noticing all these different things I think is very

19:19

, very important . So

19:32

just noticing all these different things I think is very

19:34

, very important . And then I would say

19:37

the other thing is like how you know differentiating

19:39

, like good the same way , and I think the best way

19:41

that I can describe it is is

19:44

there , is there any hope ? It

19:48

sounds stupid , but if

19:50

you're under stress , you know , are you

19:52

? do you feel like you have the

19:55

capacity and the capability to sort

19:57

of navigate whatever is in front of you

19:59

, right , it doesn't mean it's going to be perfect

20:01

or it's going to be easy , but , like you know

20:03

, do you feel like , yeah , you know , with

20:05

, with some help , I can see myself

20:08

achieving whatever

20:10

I need to achieve ? Or like , do you feel

20:12

just , you know , desperate

20:14

and deflated and

20:16

you've lost sort of all hope

20:19

. So so I think that feeling

20:21

of how sure are

20:23

you , or how much are you willing to

20:25

bet on yourself to navigate this

20:27

situation is probably

20:29

a good indicator on , yeah , whether

20:32

it's the kind of stress that

20:34

you need to be looking closer

20:36

into .

20:37

Dominic , how do you manage your stress

20:40

? Now you talked about a matrix or

20:42

a canvas that you use , an

20:44

approach that you advise other people

20:46

on , but tell us about what goes into that .

20:49

Yeah , so that canvas again

20:51

is sort of based on Professor , doctor

20:53

, and it's essentially

20:55

taking those three components and then asking

20:58

yourself , for instance

21:00

, with the stressors , how can you prevent

21:03

your the exposure

21:05

to those external stressors ? Right

21:07

, you can't control whether those things happen

21:09

, but you can't control whether

21:12

well , not always , but you

21:14

, you know you can make a decision whether or

21:17

not to yet to expose yourself to those . So

21:19

that's like one aspect

21:21

. And then you do that three times . So

21:24

how can you prevent those stressors

21:26

? In regards to the personal amplifiers

21:28

, that's more of practicing some

21:31

sort of , some sort of reflection

21:33

technique , which is a very vague

21:35

term , of saying you've

21:37

got to learn your values

21:40

, who you are and what you want . And then you need

21:42

to be able to compare those things

21:44

you know , those non-negotiables

21:46

that only matter to

21:48

you , and compare them constantly to

21:50

the things that are being requested

21:52

of you . Right , and as long as that

21:55

overlap is good , you're all good . But

21:57

as soon as those things start

21:59

to drift apart , that's already a warning

22:01

signal . And

22:05

then the third part visually think of

22:07

a two by three , right , not a two by two

22:09

, but a two by three . And then the third

22:12

part is are

22:14

those reactions ? Are those physical

22:16

and emotional reactions and the

22:18

best way to think about

22:21

that is you just need coping

22:23

techniques . You know things

22:25

like breathing exercises , just a

22:27

way to regulate , like yeah

22:30

, like just a way to

22:32

counteract those reactions

22:35

very , very quickly . Because

22:37

there's no , yeah , there's not much else you

22:39

can do . Right , if you're stressed out and

22:41

you're shaking and , um

22:44

, you know you have super shallow breathing . There's

22:46

no amount of help self-book you

22:48

can read in that instance to get you

22:50

sort of back into

22:53

the , um , you know , green

22:55

mode . So those are sort of the three things

22:57

prevention , reflection

22:59

and then some form of relaxation

23:01

techniques that you have to figure

23:04

out for yourself , like what works for you in those

23:06

, for those three discrete

23:08

stress Lego

23:10

blocks .

23:12

I think that sounds great and I imagine people

23:15

probably hold a lot of this information internally

23:18

. So just being able to map

23:20

that out and acknowledge

23:22

it and recognize it and use

23:24

it when you're feeling stressed

23:26

and you know when you need a bit of recovery

23:29

, sounds like a really good idea

23:31

. And we didn't really

23:33

talk about how you recovered

23:35

from your . I

23:37

guess your sort of acknowledgement of

23:39

I sort of feel like

23:41

we need to rebrand burnout

23:43

Because

23:45

it sounds so negative , but in a

23:47

way it's quite positive in a sense

23:50

of it's an acknowledgement

23:52

of no , I'm not going to take this shit anymore

23:54

and I need to prioritize myself

23:57

. So I felt like it

23:59

needs a rebrand . I'll leave that with someone else

24:01

to decide what it should

24:03

be called .

24:04

But after that moment of realization

24:07

like what were your next steps then , how

24:09

you know what was your kind of path to

24:11

to recovery and to getting into

24:13

a better place- um

24:16

, yeah , so the the first

24:18

thing was , um , actually

24:21

going to see a specialist , right , um

24:24

, so it started out as a just

24:26

not feeling so well or not feeling

24:28

up to the task , and then sort of

24:30

snowballed into a oh

24:33

yeah , into a mini breakdown , and

24:35

then a realization that , okay , I'm

24:38

, you know like , lots of questions

24:40

in terms of am I self-capable , you know

24:42

? Am I a fraud ? Like very

24:44

, very , you know like , questioning

24:46

your core existence essentially

24:48

. So , yeah , that led into

24:50

therapy with a specialist and

24:53

through that therapy , um

24:55

, yeah , just learning different techniques , learning

24:58

about why the

25:00

things happen that happen and how to

25:03

, sort of , you know like , move forward

25:05

. And after

25:07

, after that therapy , the

25:09

question then was do I go back into

25:12

the job , like , do I go back

25:14

into the same role ? Do I go back

25:16

to into , like to the same company

25:18

, but in a different role ? Like all of these questions

25:20

that then have nothing to do with therapy

25:23

but more to do with , you know like

25:25

, your livelihood , how are you going to earn money ? You

25:27

know , is all of these like

25:29

existential questions started to come up and

25:31

in addition to say

25:33

, like classical therapy , I also did

25:36

, I was a business coach who

25:38

would walk me through , say , more of the career

25:41

side , of things you know in terms

25:43

of so what are your strengths actually ? Because I had

25:45

all these questions of am I good

25:47

at anything ? Because you know

25:49

all my peers at the executive level

25:51

they also have a lot of stress , and how

25:53

come I'm the only one who's sort of failing

25:55

, you know , also

25:58

have a lot of stress and how come I'm the only one who's sort

26:00

of failing , you know . So , um , that that dual path , um

26:03

of therapy and um , like professional coaching

26:05

, was my path back

26:07

, and it quickly became

26:09

clear that I wouldn't go

26:11

back into that cpr role . But

26:14

I wasn't quite sure what , what

26:17

you know what to do next . Um , so , luckily

26:19

for me , you know , I've been

26:21

working at the company for a very long time , so

26:23

we found a way for me to be useful

26:25

and helpful by , you know , I

26:28

think , supporting others , uh

26:30

, for a couple of days per week , and

26:32

then , um , that was for

26:34

me that was very important , so that I could just

26:36

like get back into the flow of working

26:39

and getting a sense

26:41

of what I'm still capable of

26:43

and what I actually

26:45

enjoy doing and

26:49

what I'm good

26:51

at . It also just became clear

26:53

that , yeah , it's like the

26:55

story has ended , with the company and me

26:58

and it's just time to move on

27:00

and do something else

27:02

. And that entire process took , I

27:05

think , almost six months , from that

27:07

Friday to

27:10

making the decision that , yeah , it's time

27:12

, it's

27:16

just time to say goodbye , say thank you and move on .

27:18

Dominic , you've managed people over this time

27:20

since you've come back . What

27:22

do you look for within the teams that you manage

27:24

and your peers ? How do you help ? Well , as a manager , are you responsible for the stress of

27:26

other people ? Do you take that into account ? Or how do you deal with

27:28

the people that you work with ? I wish I weren't responsible

27:30

for the stress for other people . Do

27:33

you take that into account ? Or how do you deal

27:35

with the people that you work with ?

27:37

I wish I weren't responsible for the stress

27:39

for other people , but I guess I am

27:41

.

27:42

I mean it's a tough one , but you

27:44

know , when I've managed people , sometimes

27:47

I feel like I'm responsible , but at the same time I've

27:49

counseled people to do less , to

27:51

change their approach at times , and

27:53

sometimes they don't listen , so I can't

27:55

take full responsibility . So

27:58

how do you approach ? I guess I'm asking how do you approach

28:00

this ?

28:01

I'm , to be honest , I'm still figuring this out

28:04

because I

28:06

truly believe that you need

28:08

to manage that yourself . You know so

28:10

I'm sort of on your side here that there's

28:13

just so much you can influence from the outside

28:15

. So , yeah , I , yeah

28:19

, I'm still figuring this out . But if

28:21

I compare , like my management style now

28:24

versus before the burnout , I

28:26

think the biggest difference is to

28:29

just remain in a

28:31

state where I'm just

28:33

fully capable of not

28:36

only reacting but actually acting . Right

28:38

. So just trying to not be at max

28:40

capacity the whole time . And

28:43

, yeah , I've just found that

28:45

I'm a lot more , whether I

28:48

have the capability of helping people

28:50

or helping my team in a different way

28:52

than when I'm struggling with my own bullshit

28:55

, right . So that's like the

28:57

first thing . And then the other thing is just

28:59

taking the teams

29:02

along for the ride and not

29:04

bottling everything up or

29:06

trying to protect them from

29:09

quote-unquote bad management and

29:11

all these other evil things , and

29:13

creating this paradise of

29:16

a product org where everybody's

29:18

best friends and you know there's no

29:21

pressure and we can just do

29:24

whatever we like and not care about revenue

29:26

or growth or any of those things . And

29:28

you know , just be , yeah , just be upfront

29:31

and and work through those things

29:33

together . Yeah

29:36

, but I'm still learning , to be honest

29:38

. So if anyone else has a

29:40

great idea or a great approach

29:43

, please let me know .

29:45

No , that's , that's great . I'm curious , though , is

29:47

, having gone through this yourself , is there anything

29:49

you look for as warning

29:51

signs in other people that

29:54

we could take as a lesson ?

30:01

I would say like mood swings or like a you know when , when people

30:03

sort of change their vibe slightly , um

30:06

, but that means you need to get to know your

30:08

people , um , very , very

30:10

well , right , and you need to understand

30:12

what their normal state looks

30:14

like and and how they operate

30:16

at , say , you know , regular

30:19

capacity and how they start

30:21

operating when things

30:23

are getting tough . And

30:25

just having gone through all of that myself

30:28

, I I feel like I can sense

30:30

it . It sounds sounds a bit dumb

30:32

, but yeah , when things are

30:35

just not the way they

30:37

normally are just asking

30:39

, offering help , trying

30:41

to work through some of the challenges

30:44

, yeah , and then also maybe change

30:46

in communication style If somebody

30:48

shares a lot and is very

30:50

outgoing and then suddenly they just flip

30:53

and they're just answering in

30:55

short messages or not answering

30:57

at all , or you know . I

30:59

think you just yeah , you just need to

31:01

try and spot behavioral

31:03

changes , which is part

31:06

of what we do as product managers . So applying some

31:08

of those product management skills to

31:10

your own team and

31:12

squad members , I think is is a good first

31:15

step .

31:16

I think one of the things that I've seen that

31:18

works quite nicely for for something

31:20

like this is a regular survey

31:22

which kind of gives like a a pulse

31:25

on how the

31:27

employees are feeling about

31:30

their work and the business and , um

31:33

, you know what sort of levels of stress they

31:35

they feel like they're under , and

31:37

that way you know , you can see kind of what

31:39

feels normal for the team and then , if it's trending

31:42

and they're trending in the wrong , wrong direction , always

31:44

love a little bit of data and that's

31:46

quite easy to set up as well , because you just

31:48

set it up as a sort of , you know , recurring

31:50

pole . So yeah , I

31:52

found that quite helpful in previous , previous

31:55

jobs . I'm going to steal

31:57

that .

31:57

I think that is cool . We do something similar

32:00

to this , but yeah , I'm definitely

32:02

going to steal that . Well , I think

32:04

one tell is

32:06

too much . Sarcasm

32:08

, like that is . I mean

32:10

, pms are a very sarcastic bunch , right , but

32:12

sometimes it just

32:14

goes way over the line . No

32:22

, we're not , it's , it's just too much for too long . I think that's a very

32:24

um , that that's something

32:26

to watch out for . And then maybe the other

32:28

one is sort of

32:30

going back to this feeling of being

32:32

, uh , you know , deflated and

32:34

not quite sure whether you can trust yourself with

32:37

the , with the challenge at hand is

32:39

, if somebody's struggling to walk

32:41

you through how they would go about achieving

32:44

what they're working on or the

32:46

goals that they're trying to hit , you

32:48

know , if they're sort of like I don't know , uh

32:51

beats me , uh , but

32:53

you know those are not good

32:55

signs and I think those are signs

32:57

that definitely somebody's struggling . But

32:59

if that's like the , the status

33:02

quo , then yeah , they're not in a

33:04

in a good space and you need to help

33:07

. And and I think sometimes it's super tough

33:09

because pms are mostly

33:11

very driven . So even if you're in that state

33:13

, you you'll sort of there's this pride attached

33:16

. You know where you'd be like . No , no , I'll

33:18

figure it out next week , next week , next week

33:20

, and then next week turns into , next

33:22

month turns into , you know , the

33:24

next quarter and before you know

33:26

it your team member is redlining

33:29

and for

33:31

everybody it's going to be a big surprise when they burn

33:33

out .

33:39

And one of the things about Doist is it's a fully remote company I believe

33:41

, isn't it ? Yes , so how do you ? How

33:43

do you kind of learn about

33:45

your team , like what are the things that you

33:47

have put in place to , to learn

33:49

more about , like what the the

33:51

normal , the status quo

33:54

looks like for the team versus like

33:56

the team under pressure or the team

33:58

extra happy .

34:04

I think the tools are very similar . So

34:07

I have regular one-on-ones don't

34:09

skip them , I have weekly one-on-ones

34:12

. We also have a weekly sort

34:14

of team meeting and

34:18

ones . We also have a weekly sort of team meeting , so so you can catch , you know , the vibe and

34:20

the groove , uh , pretty , pretty quickly . And then

34:22

we , although we are fully remote and

34:24

async , first we have

34:26

regular retreats , so we meet a

34:28

couple of times in person , four

34:31

to six days , depending on how big the

34:33

retreat is . And that's where you also pick

34:35

up on all the other things , because you

34:37

get to hang out after work

34:39

and just get to know each other a lot better

34:42

. So I think it's a combination of these two things

34:44

. And , lastly , we

34:46

are a pretty small company , so you work

34:48

with people very

34:50

, very frequently . So I think that is

34:52

almost the most important

34:54

part , where you get to collaborate

34:56

on the same piece of work rather than

34:59

just managing from a distance

35:01

and managing via . Oh , that person

35:03

told me that you know that other person

35:05

is struggling . So

35:08

yeah , I would say it's fairly

35:10

, I think , unexciting that

35:13

it is pretty much the same as you

35:15

would , the same techniques that you

35:17

would use if you were co-located

35:20

.

35:21

Dominic , this has been fantastic . I want to

35:23

thank you again for being so open

35:25

and sharing this with everyone . I

35:27

think it's really important and my

35:30

favorite radio station has a great theme that

35:32

they talk about all the time they sign off with saying

35:34

theme that they talk about all the time they sign off with saying you

35:36

are not alone . And

35:44

sometimes I think we sometimes feel like we're alone and just hearing someone

35:46

else talk about this and recognizing no , none of us are that special . We're all very

35:48

special , but we're not that special when we feel

35:50

stressed , when we feel like there's

35:52

problems and there are ways of dealing with this . So , thank

35:55

you .

35:56

I like that quote and I'm going to steal

35:58

that as well . So two things I'm stealing from this

36:01

interview . Thanks for having me .

36:03

Oh , anytime , and we're stealing a lot from

36:05

you , don't worry , and I hope that everyone listening

36:07

has got stuff out of this . To

36:10

wrap up , dominic , is there anything

36:13

that you want to leave people

36:15

with and is there one tip that you

36:17

want people to walk away from this podcast

36:19

with ?

36:20

My one tip would be if

36:22

you've never asked

36:25

yourself what your personal

36:27

values are , start with that , and

36:29

start with that . Just ask yourself what

36:32

is it that you want ? What is the

36:35

vision of your product , which is your

36:37

life Like ? We do all of these things

36:39

every single day with our products

36:41

, but we never ask ourselves what

36:43

is our vision for ourselves ? You know what's

36:46

our strategy in achieving that vision and all

36:48

of these things . So start

36:50

with your personal values what are those

36:52

? And then ask yourself whether

36:54

you're violating them on

36:56

a regular basis or whether what

36:59

you're doing every single day aligns

37:02

with those values . And if they do

37:04

, continue on and let

37:06

me know what the job is , because I want

37:08

to know . And if

37:10

you see that you're sort

37:13

of going against the grain , then

37:15

I think that's a strong signal for

37:17

you to do something .

37:20

Amazing . Thank you so much , dominic . It's been

37:22

so great talking to you today . Thank

37:24

you , the

37:35

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37:38

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37:40

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37:42

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37:44

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