0:00

Hey , Lily , it's nearly Christmas

0:02

, which usually means that you know

0:04

, whatever your beliefs and heritage , that

0:06

you'll be spending time with family

0:08

and friends , and that

0:11

always seems to result in the hardest question

0:13

any of us have to answer . So

0:15

, gully , what do you say when someone

0:18

asks what a product manager actually is ? Gully

0:27

, oh , that's right

0:29

. Sorry , gully can't make

0:31

it today . She's got an offsite with her team , which

0:33

means it's just me . Well , not

0:36

just me . I'm

0:39

joined today by Tammy Reese . She's a great

0:41

product coach and instructor who has a great

0:44

answer to this question , actually . So

0:46

let's not waste any time , just

0:48

hit the music and let's get straight

0:51

into it . The product experience

0:53

is brought to you by Mind

0:55

the Product . Every week on

0:58

the podcast , we talk to the best product

1:00

people from around the globe .

1:02

Visit mindtheproductcom to catch up on

1:04

past episodes and discover loads of free

1:06

resources to help you with your product practice

1:09

. You can also find more information

1:11

about Mind the Product's conferences and

1:13

their great training opportunities happening around

1:16

the world , and online .

1:17

Create a free account on the website for a fully

1:20

personalized experience and to get

1:22

access to the full library of awesome

1:24

content and the weekly curated newsletter

1:26

Mind . The Product also offers free

1:28

product tank meetups in more than 200 cities

1:31

. There's probably one near you

1:33

, Tammy

1:35

. Thank you so much for joining us this week . How are you

1:37

doing ?

1:38

I'm doing great . Thank you so much for having me .

1:40

So for anyone who doesn't already know

1:42

you and shame on them can

1:45

you give us a quick introduction ? What

1:47

are you doing these days and how did you get

1:49

into the product racket in the first place ?

1:52

Oh , that's a long answer . Hi

1:54

, I'm Tammy Reese , also known as Tammy

1:56

, from Miami . I am

1:59

also known as the product leader

2:01

coach , and what that means is

2:03

I work with up and coming

2:05

product executives and product leaders to help

2:08

them be awesome . I also do a

2:10

number of other things to help product

2:12

people at all stages of their careers

2:14

be awesome , which includes

2:16

I'm working on a children's book , I

2:19

do some stuff with product institute

2:21

, I am working on recording

2:23

a course with product alliance around

2:26

mastering roadmaps , and I speak

2:28

at conferences and companies

2:30

and a variety of other things

2:33

all under the auspices of helping

2:35

people be awesome .

2:37

Oh , I like that . So how did you get into

2:39

product in the first place ?

2:41

Oh yeah , that's the longer story .

2:43

Let's do the short version of the long version .

2:47

I got into product while

2:49

I was at farmers

2:51

insurance doing some

2:53

what they called product work , but then they switched me to

2:56

a real product team Because

2:58

I wasn't as good

3:00

at math as the actuaries and

3:03

I had a marketing

3:06

business brain and

3:09

yeah . So that's how I got into product

3:11

and I never looked back but I realized I've

3:13

always sort of been in product . I was

3:15

the . My first job was a fundraiser and I

3:17

was the fundraiser who did analysis

3:19

of what zip codes were doing

3:22

best and I AB tested our call scripts

3:24

and things like that . I

3:26

just didn't know that was called product management . So

3:29

, yeah , that's how I got into product and

3:32

I have spent

3:34

over 15 years doing product one way

3:36

or another and I specialize

3:39

in B2B SaaS products for

3:41

the enterprise .

3:42

I love your take on that because you know I get

3:44

the question all the time from people of how

3:46

do I get my first product job , how do I become

3:48

a product manager ? And one of the things

3:50

I tell them is you don't have to have the title to

3:53

use the approach and do this stuff . You

3:55

can do it in almost any role and that's

3:58

a perfect example of it .

4:00

Yes , 100% . The

4:02

stump speech I used to give was called everyone

4:05

should be a scientist , which is pretty much

4:07

incorporating the product mindset , and nowadays

4:10

it's called the only three questions you ever

4:12

need , which is how do you incorporate the

4:14

product mindset into all decision making

4:16

?

4:18

And that is the talk that I saw you do when

4:20

we were both at productized in Lisbon

4:22

a few months ago . So

4:24

let's go straight into it . Before

4:26

we dig into each of them , just tell us what

4:29

are the three questions and then tell me how

4:31

did you come up with these as your shortcut

4:34

for it .

4:36

Well , it's not how product people are just resting , it's about everybody

4:38

should approach things , but how

4:41

can everybody incorporate the product

4:43

mindset into decision making ? And

4:45

so there are two

4:48

big things that were going on that contributed

4:50

to these questions happening . One

4:53

is the very common question I had gotten

4:55

for 15 plus years , which was what

4:57

do product managers do ? And

4:59

I would start by saying we're the people who decide

5:02

what to do next . And the way we decide

5:04

to do that is we communicate

5:07

out and we do a whole listening thing and we listen

5:09

and we ask questions and then we evaluate

5:12

possibilities and we then

5:14

make decisions and we prioritize what to do next

5:16

. And

5:18

, as I mentioned a few minutes ago , I used to

5:21

also give this speech called everyone should be

5:23

a scientist , which is about incorporating

5:25

the lean methodology into anything you're doing

5:27

. So

5:29

the lean method version is build

5:31

, measure , learn , which a lot of people

5:33

learned about through Eric Ries' book

5:35

, the Lean Startup no relation to

5:37

Eric , but

5:40

in the scientific community

5:42

which I have my educational background

5:44

in , we call it observe

5:47

, hypothesized test , and so

5:49

I was talking a lot about that and

5:52

at some point when I was explaining what

5:54

does it mean to be a product manager to a group of

5:56

budding associate product managers

5:58

. I helped them understand

6:01

that there is where do we want to

6:03

go , which is your vision

6:05

and your long term goals and the

6:08

outcomes you're trying to generate . That's

6:10

question number one . Question number

6:12

two is where are we now , which

6:14

is around product operations and data

6:17

, and all of that listening

6:19

tour , user feedback , seeing

6:21

what's going on in the market , all the things that we

6:23

do as product people to understand the here

6:25

and now . What does our solution

6:28

currently do ? And then , where

6:30

should we go next , which is what product managers are

6:33

in charge of deciding what to do

6:35

next . And so that

6:37

was a good way of explaining the

6:39

all three parts of product

6:41

management , which are where

6:43

do we want to go , where

6:45

are we now and where should we

6:47

go next , or where from where

6:50

to where next the super

6:52

shorthand on that , and

6:56

it's been an evolution , but I

6:58

really do believe that the product mindset

7:00

can be applied to pretty much anything , and

7:03

so that's my stump speech

7:05

for today .

7:06

I like it . Let's dig into each of the questions

7:08

a little bit more than that . So

7:10

, starting with the first one where do we want to go

7:12

? How do you know ? What

7:15

are the tools that we use ? What are the things that you

7:17

need to have in place to have

7:20

? It's not just what I put my finger in the

7:22

air and say I want to go that way

7:24

, so what is it that I need to have to

7:26

coherently be able to

7:29

say this is where we want to go ?

7:31

So it may be a company vision

7:33

, it may be a mission , so

7:36

it could be the mission of an organization . And

7:38

what you're really trying to ask

7:40

is , if the world were a better

7:42

place because of the things I'm about to

7:44

put into the world , what would it look like ? That's

7:47

what a vision really is . The

7:50

world should be different . What

7:53

do I think it should look like if

7:56

it were different and better ? And

7:59

so I just mentioned this could be a company

8:01

or a nonprofit , but

8:03

similarly , you could apply these questions

8:05

to yourself your career , what would your

8:07

life look like if it was different and better

8:10

? What would your job look

8:12

like if it was different and better ? What

8:14

would a relationship look like if it was different

8:16

or better ? Or , on the micro scale , what

8:19

would a meeting that happens every

8:21

week look like if it was different

8:23

and better ?

8:25

I like that . Okay , so

8:27

we'll dig into a little bit later on whose responsibility

8:30

it is to supply these things . No-transcript

8:35

. I really love the second question

8:37

. I think this is my favorite one . Where

8:40

are we coming from ? What

8:42

does this mean ? Why is this

8:44

something that isn't always covered

8:46

?

8:47

So I think , first of all

8:49

, most people choose what to do next . First we

8:54

center on , someone has an idea about something that

8:56

should happen , and then everyone

8:58

asks feasibility questions oh

9:00

, what would it be involved with building that ? What

9:02

will be involved in financing that , what

9:04

will be involved in making that happen

9:06

? As opposed to should it happen at all , which

9:09

is the valueability question , which

9:12

is , where do we want to go is important

9:15

Because it helps frame the

9:17

long-term vision . And is this something

9:19

that helps us get closer to that ? So

9:22

that's why I say always start with question number one . But

9:25

question number two helps you understand

9:27

well , how far are we away

9:29

from that end desired goal

9:31

? How far are we away from

9:33

that post out there

9:35

, that North Star , that audacious

9:39

outcome of a better world that

9:41

we want ? Where are we now ? That

9:44

helps us understand not only

9:46

how far away are we , but what

9:48

resources do we have available ? Who

9:51

is on our team ? What are our special talents

9:54

, what are our unique selling propositions , what

9:56

are our capability gaps that

9:58

are preventing us from being

10:01

in that future state which is amazing

10:03

and different and better . And

10:05

so , for a

10:07

company , this might be looking at . Well

10:10

, what does our product line missing . We

10:13

might need a whole additional product or a new

10:15

service For a product . It might be

10:17

we're missing these features or we

10:19

need to adapt a feature or advance a feature

10:21

For an individual's career . You might

10:23

need to get an education

10:25

in something or training in something or experience

10:28

in something in order to

10:30

fill in a capability gap . But

10:33

before you can choose what to do next

10:36

which helps you get closer to your

10:38

desired end state

10:40

, goal future , you got

10:42

to know where you're coming from right now .

10:44

And .

10:44

I didn't mention this earlier , but hopefully

10:47

at some point , someone who's listening connected

10:49

the dots . And these questions are

10:51

all directional questions and they

10:54

are exactly what Google Maps asks

10:56

you . They ask you where

10:59

do you want to go , they set

11:01

your current location as the

11:03

default , where you're coming from , and

11:05

then they show you where to go

11:07

next . But you

11:09

need those first two in order to choose

11:12

the next .

11:13

So the problem with this

11:15

one ? I think I'm going to do horrible stereotypes

11:17

, but I think it's a useful stereotype in this case . This

11:20

is the one where sales or the CEO or

11:22

somebody comes in and says , can't

11:24

we just ? I think a lot of times they're assuming

11:26

we're right next door to

11:29

where we want to go . We

11:32

don't have to . There are no obstacles , in a way , We'll

11:34

just get there easily . And that word

11:36

just is always the scariest one in

11:39

technology as far as I'm concerned .

11:41

Or any question that sales

11:43

brings to you . Hey , can't we just do this

11:45

thing ? And if you

11:47

can say that's a really great idea

11:50

, let's make sure it's

11:52

in line with our company's

11:54

vision of what we're supposed

11:57

to do , the markets we're supposed to serve

11:59

, the problems we're supposed to solve for them

12:01

, the world that is better

12:03

that we're trying to create . Does this

12:05

help us get there or

12:08

not ? And , based

12:11

on where we are right now , is this

12:13

necessarily the best next

12:15

step , because it

12:17

may be out of order of other

12:19

steps which may be higher impact or

12:21

open more doors or be

12:23

more efficient in development

12:26

or anything else that

12:28

might be a way of helping

12:30

them realize that we're trying to connect

12:33

the dots and your

12:35

dot is a little advanced

12:38

from where we are today , or

12:41

it's a little too far off

12:43

the path and too much of a

12:46

road trip that isn't helping us get to where

12:48

we need to go , or it steps backwards , or

12:51

it might create steps backwards . This

12:53

is something that , if you think about racking

12:55

up tech debt , that's like taking

12:58

steps backwards to a certain degree

13:00

.

13:01

Okay , so the last question where

13:04

should we go next ? I think

13:06

one of the interesting things about using the Google

13:08

Maps analogy is it

13:10

takes your starting point , your current location

13:12

, it shows you how to get to the destination , but

13:14

it usually gives you a couple of alternatives

13:17

, and that's not something that we always

13:19

do , is it ?

13:20

No , it's most certainly not something we always do

13:23

. Part of being

13:25

a good product manager is

13:27

thinking about the different options you have

13:29

to solve the problem you want and not

13:32

falling in love with the first solution that gets

13:34

mentioned and not going along with the

13:36

highest paid person in the room's opinion , etc . But

13:39

, to understand , there are many options available

13:41

to us for how to reach this next

13:44

flagpole on

13:46

our way towards our final destination

13:48

, and so in

13:50

Google Maps , that's things like public transportation

13:53

or hailing a cab or walking

13:55

or biking , and some things

13:57

are slower , like

14:00

walking versus driving , but

14:02

they allow you to get

14:04

feedback along the way a little better , potentially . And

14:08

some things involve hiring somebody else

14:10

, which is really the build by partner

14:13

question , or the build by ally

14:15

question , which is do I need

14:17

to be the person driving this car ?

14:21

Is this critical ? Is this a unique

14:23

advantage for us ? Is this

14:25

critical ? Do we need to build this ourselves

14:27

or is this just a service we can

14:29

hire ? It's a very wardly map type

14:32

question as well .

14:33

Yes , exactly . Or , if you think about

14:35

it , a bus is kind of like . Can we use a publicly

14:38

available third party system that

14:41

many people are going to share with us ?

14:44

Yeah , that makes sense and I

14:46

think that to really torture the

14:48

maps metaphor , the nice part about

14:50

it is also you re-root

14:53

. Sometimes You're going along

14:55

a certain way and a better option opens

14:57

up , or you find out that it

14:59

isn't quite working the way you expected

15:01

.

15:01

You can change and still get to the same

15:03

destination 100%

15:06

, just like in Google Maps , where

15:08

all of a sudden there's an accident and it says

15:10

rerouting to avoid a delay

15:12

. If you think about it , development

15:15

is supposed to be a learning experience where , as

15:18

we start doing discovery , as we start

15:20

doing development , we're supposed to learn . Every

15:22

day , we're supposed to learn more and if , along

15:24

that path , we learn that our original

15:27

desired route isn't

15:29

going to get us to our end destination , change

15:32

your plans .

15:35

So I really like using metaphors . I think

15:37

the storytelling is great in this . Do

15:39

you find it helpful when explaining

15:42

to partners , to stakeholders , to

15:44

people not directly involved in the

15:46

build process that when

15:49

things change , this is the phase we're

15:51

in , we're in the where should we go next phase

15:53

, and it's like driving to grandma's

15:55

house , except we

15:57

found construction on the way , or something like that . Is

16:00

that how you approach ?

16:01

it . So I used to say

16:03

it shouldn't be called a roadmap , it should be called a flight

16:06

plan , because

16:08

everyone's been on a plane where

16:11

there's turbulence or something that happens

16:13

, which means you have to go a little higher or a little

16:15

lower . Luckily , most of us have

16:17

not been on a plane where someone has an emergency

16:19

that means you have to land

16:22

in a city that wasn't your final destination

16:24

. But the

16:26

idea of a flight plan is and the same thing

16:28

happens when Google Maps creates that initial

16:30

route is based on what we know

16:33

right now . This is our

16:35

best plan on how to reach

16:37

our destination . But

16:39

the world is going to change every

16:42

minute as we progress towards our destination

16:44

and we may need to make adjustments

16:46

. But if we keep

16:48

that end destination

16:50

in mind , we can make better

16:53

decisions about how to adjust

16:55

appropriately . But

16:57

if all we're worried about is what to do next

17:00

, very often we're like oh wow

17:02

, there's a big accident . I guess we should turn around

17:04

and go home . That isn't

17:06

what you want . You want to have this end goal

17:08

always in mind so that you can

17:10

come up with advanced solutions

17:12

when there are bumps in the road or

17:15

turbulence .

17:16

And I'm sorry , just going back to the communication

17:19

side of this , do you find that other people understand

17:22

it better in this context , or is this something

17:24

that you use only as your own mental model

17:26

?

17:27

I think it's something that , luckily

17:30

, most of us have been in a car or an airplane . It's

17:33

incredibly helpful to help people

17:35

understand , especially when you're giving a status

17:38

update . That may not be great . Hey , we

17:40

learned something . There was traffic

17:43

along the way and thus we have

17:45

. It might take a little extra time . Or we're

17:47

going to do this alternative route . We're

17:50

not going to take the express lane anymore , we're

17:52

going to take the regular lane , but we're going

17:54

to be a week or two delayed , but we're still going to

17:56

get there . Having that context

17:58

of we're still going to get to our end destination

18:01

is very helpful . Or

18:03

, hey , we learned that end destination

18:06

is actually not that attractive to customers and

18:09

instead we're going to go to this other destination

18:11

, which really is .

18:13

We're going to .

18:13

Hawaii instead . Yay , exactly

18:16

right . Or like

18:18

it doesn't even have to be Hawaii . It might be like hey

18:21

, we thought we wanted to go to Disneyland

18:23

, but we figured out we should go to Disney

18:25

World for this other reason , right .

18:27

Or .

18:27

Legoland or Universal

18:30

Studios , or we're going to Disneyland Paris

18:32

because it turns out our European people

18:34

couldn't get visas to get to the States , or

18:36

whatever . It is right

18:39

, but if the idea is

18:41

we're trying to create an environment of

18:44

happiness , any of the Disney's

18:46

work .

18:47

Okay . So that's spoken very much as

18:49

someone who's got young children

18:51

, so I'm going to torture that metaphor

18:54

instead . Now , stakeholders

18:57

, sometimes I say a lot of times that being a parent

18:59

made me a better manager no-transcript

19:03

when you've got various people saying I want

19:05

to go to this place , I want to go to that place

19:07

, and they're not . You don't have that full alignment

19:10

at the leadership level or

19:12

even at middle management level , where they're they're

19:14

asking for different interpretations

19:17

of getting to that goal . How

19:19

do you know what to say yes to ?

19:21

so I Always am

19:23

one of those people who's like a five wise people

19:26

where I asked like why ? Why do

19:28

you want this ? Well , why is that important

19:30

to you ? What's the value going to be

19:32

? Which , if you think

19:34

about it , is when do we want

19:36

to go ? So

19:39

the five wise is an exercise that helps us

19:41

understand where do we want to go , because

19:44

I like to get to the heart of the matter . If you're

19:46

asking me for something , there's probably

19:48

many layers behind it as to

19:50

why you think this is valuable . So help

19:52

me along on that journey with you . Explain

19:55

it to me Can

19:57

always be very helpful , because I want to make sure

19:59

something is actually going to be valuable

20:01

. And what I found is is that

20:03

when you can get to the why of

20:05

something , even when you see that Stakeholders

20:08

are asking for different things , there's

20:10

more alignment in the why that end

20:12

state they're trying to generate . And

20:14

if you can explain to them here is

20:16

what we're actually going to choose as what

20:19

we're going to invest in , but

20:21

it still helps you get to what you want

20:23

your goal you

20:25

have a better help in

20:27

Having them understand

20:30

that simply because their solution

20:32

is not what's being Developed

20:35

doesn't mean that their problem isn't being solved

20:37

.

20:38

So these questions are all where

20:40

questions and , to

20:42

an extent , why questions . None

20:44

of it is a how question . Is

20:47

that intentional ?

20:49

Um , I don't think it's necessarily

20:52

intentional , other than I love alliterations

20:54

, but

20:56

to me , even

20:59

if you're a developer and you're going through the how

21:01

, you should

21:03

be saying to our self yourself , like

21:05

where do I want this code to go ? Like

21:07

what's the end state of what

21:10

I'm trying to build ? I used to work for pivotal labs

21:12

, which is all about Continuous deployment

21:15

and red green testing and all of that stuff

21:17

. And so I mean CI

21:19

, cd , right , continuous

21:21

integration and so , and test-driven

21:23

development . And so , if

21:26

you think about it , test-driven development

21:28

is saying where do we want to go ? We want

21:30

to get to a place where all of our tests run green

21:32

. Where are we now ? All

21:34

of them are red , or three of them are red right , and

21:37

I'm like where should we go next ? Well , which one of

21:39

these things do we want to turn green next ? Yes

21:42

, but

21:44

I also think that these

21:46

questions can be really empowering , because

21:49

to me , as you said , management

21:52

, leadership , etc . Management and leadership

21:54

isn't about knowing the answers to all three

21:56

of these questions . It's about saying , depending

21:59

on what my role is right now orchestrator

22:01

or operator .

22:02

Mm-hmm .

22:03

I have to answer one , two of

22:05

these questions , but never all three . And

22:07

so very often , as a manager or leader , you're

22:10

giving and your quote-unquote

22:12

strategy deploying when do we want

22:14

to go ? You're helping

22:16

the team understand where we are now because you

22:18

might have to teach them more about the market or

22:20

the company , etc . And then

22:22

it's up to the individual teams to come up

22:24

with options that help us get closer

22:27

to the where we want to go with what comes next

22:29

. And so , similarly , a

22:31

product manager , when you're writing out a user

22:34

story , that's a where do we want to go ? We

22:36

want to go to a place where this user's

22:38

need is fulfilled . Where are we now

22:40

? The acceptance criteria are not yet

22:42

met , right , mm-hmm . Where

22:45

should we go next ? That's up to the engineers to figure

22:47

out how to code it to make it work .

22:48

So what is the difference between someone wearing

22:51

the in the leadership role

22:53

versus in the the Individual

22:56

contributor role I hate saying individual

22:58

contributor for product managers ? There's none

23:00

. Of us are do anything by ourselves , but

23:03

Regardless that's a really good

23:05

point , randy . But

23:07

regardless , in between it does things . Someone

23:10

is in that head VP

23:12

Director type role and someone's

23:14

in the individual team role . Which

23:17

type of questions should they be leading

23:20

on ? Which type of question Should they be answering

23:22

and which type of questions should they be asking

23:24

the other people to take lead on ?

23:27

So I think that , as a leader , you will

23:29

more probably be in the where do we want

23:31

to go ? Question more often Mm-hmm

23:33

, and that could be about a process . That could be

23:35

about a team structure , organizational

23:38

design Like what do we want this to look like ? What would better

23:40

be right , what would awesome be

23:42

? And as an individual

23:45

contributor or a Person

23:47

who is more on the ground

23:49

work working , you're

23:51

going to be more centered in what to do next as

23:53

well as understanding where

23:55

we are now . So , as a product manager

23:57

, you're going to be looking at customer

24:00

success tickets . You're going to be looking

24:02

at win loss ratios and

24:04

loss reasons for sales . You're

24:06

going to be looking at idea boxes or

24:08

user voice or whatever you're using

24:10

to Incorporate ideas from

24:13

your existing customers . You're going to be looking at the market

24:15

, and that's your job , but it

24:17

tends to be the more senior you are

24:19

as a product person , you're going to be more involved in those

24:21

activities versus the individual

24:23

user story writing when do we go next ? And

24:27

so , over the course of your career

24:29

, you will advance more and more

24:31

into answering More where

24:33

should we go , questions versus where

24:35

we're next .

24:36

I Think we've all been in

24:38

this , the scenario where , at

24:40

some point in our career , people

24:42

above us have not given us

24:45

the direction for something critical , nor

24:47

do they necessarily trust us to

24:50

come up with it on honor on our own . So

24:52

when you're in that , that , that realm

24:54

of uncertainty , any advice

24:56

on how to figure out , how to get from here

24:58

to there in terms of resolving uncertainty

25:00

with leadership ?

25:02

So I think what you're leaning on is

25:04

how often a company

25:06

, a product , does not have a vision

25:08

, does not have a future

25:11

state that they're aiming towards , does not

25:13

have a strong North Star

25:15

metric that they're monitoring , or

25:17

North Star as to what they're going for

25:19

, or a mission or whatever you want to call it Some

25:22

sort of out there

25:24

. this is where we're headed and

25:26

it's incredibly

25:28

common that it is missing and it is a

25:30

really unfortunate situation , and what

25:33

I suggest to everybody who asks this

25:35

question because it is probably the most common question

25:37

I get asked when we go through

25:39

these three questions or any of the strategy teachings

25:42

I've ever done is why

25:44

don't you take a shot at it ? Take a shot

25:46

at it , try your best

25:48

and say this is what I think it should be and

25:51

present it to your leadership , whether

25:53

that's your immediate boss or a skip level , and say

25:55

, in the absence of hearing

25:57

this , this is what I came up with . What

26:00

adjustments do you , with

26:02

your more context , think

26:04

are necessary to make this

26:06

a strong vision statement , mission

26:09

statement , north Star , etc .

26:11

I love that . I used a very similar

26:14

technique . I do some work with one

26:16

of the UK government departments and they

26:19

were having a lot of trouble getting an answer

26:21

from one of the ministers they work

26:23

with . And that's

26:25

to be expected . These people are politicians that

26:28

actually nailing them down on something

26:30

can be quite slippery . That's one

26:32

of their strengths . So , instead

26:34

of Amazon's , write the press release . I said write

26:36

the minister's speech . We're going to spend an hour and

26:38

we're going to get together and we'll write the speech

26:40

of what they'll say in the House of Commons or

26:43

in the press conference , and it doesn't matter

26:45

if it's right or wrong . It's something

26:47

to take to them and say is this

26:49

what you want to say ? And if

26:51

they say yes , then fantastic . But if they say no

26:53

, at least you've crossed some things

26:55

out and hopefully they'll correct you .

26:58

Yeah , and hopefully you'll get more clarity , Because

27:01

simply putting something down on paper that

27:03

someone can disagree with or agree with

27:05

will give you more

27:08

information than asking a too expansive

27:10

a question . And I've actually given this

27:12

advice to people who have direct

27:15

managers that aren't very good at giving feedback

27:17

, Because if you ask

27:19

someone who isn't

27:21

very good at thinking expansively

27:23

hey , what did you think

27:25

of my speech today ? Or

27:28

what did you think of this presentation or this

27:30

document I produced More often

27:32

than not they'll say something like oh , it was fine , it

27:35

was okay . Yeah , and that's horrible

27:37

feedback because you don't know how to make it better . But

27:39

if you can ask them a more precise

27:42

question like was this the right

27:44

length ?

27:45

Mm-hmm .

27:46

Right , or what adjustments

27:48

would you suggest for

27:50

the presentation for this new audience

27:52

I'm giving it to ? Then you're asking

27:54

a much more concrete and direct

27:56

question and you have a better chance of getting

27:59

feedback that will guide you towards

28:01

a better state for yourself .

28:03

I love this . All of these things are tools

28:05

to have better conversations with people , and

28:07

that's exactly what you're getting at .

28:09

Yes , alignment .

28:12

Clarity , alignment , understanding , yeah

28:15

, fantastic .

28:16

Yeah , all of the things . It's

28:18

actually amazing to me how much

28:21

communication is

28:23

the most key thing to being

28:25

successful in the variety

28:27

of realms .

28:29

Tammy . Thank you , this has been fantastic . I think

28:31

we've got time for one more

28:33

big question . This

28:35

one came up in your talk

28:37

and it's not

28:39

about me and you , but where should we go next

28:41

on vacation ? How does this relate

28:43

to these three questions that you came

28:46

up with ?

28:47

So I say that these are the only three questions you

28:49

ever need , and they're applicable to business

28:51

, leadership and life . And why

28:54

not turn them into the questions you need

28:56

for choosing where should we go on

28:58

vacation ? And too often

29:00

people hear about a friend

29:02

going somewhere and they say , oh , that was great , can

29:04

we go there too ? And it becomes a feasibility question

29:07

when can I take off time

29:09

? Where ? What hotel

29:11

should we stay at , as

29:13

opposed to , is this even where you

29:15

want to go ? So if you

29:17

start with that , where do we want

29:20

to go ? What are the goals of our taking a vacation

29:22

? Are we trying to get away as a couple ? Am I trying

29:24

to get away from my spouse and hang out with a friend

29:26

? Am I trying to enlighten

29:30

my children and expose them to new cultures

29:32

? Am I trying to go on some sort of mission trip

29:34

where I'm giving back right , like , what are the

29:37

goals that will help me feel fulfilled

29:39

while I'm not at work ? And

29:41

that's the . Where do we want to go

29:43

? And then the where are we now ? Is the reflective

29:46

questions over what are my , what are my budget

29:48

? What is my tolerance for safety ? How

29:51

long of a flight am I willing to take Right

29:54

? Do I hate stopovers

29:56

or not , right ? And

29:59

when was the last time we saw

30:01

grandma ? Is she sick , right ? All of

30:03

these are the questions we need to ask

30:05

for the . Where are we now ? Before

30:07

we choose , where should we go on vacation

30:10

?

30:10

I love that we've got a good friend who got

30:13

the mindset of a backpacker . She will do

30:16

anything to save $5 . She , you

30:18

know she will sleep in an airport overnight and all that

30:20

. She'll subject her kids to all that and

30:22

we don't want to do that with our kid . We would never

30:24

do the same , the same approach

30:26

. We may get to the same destination , but we would do it in

30:28

a totally different way and we would

30:30

allocate a different budget to doing it than

30:33

she would , or we won't go , and

30:36

it's just a different mindset . And it's a great

30:38

question to ask .

30:39

But it's so . Vacation

30:42

is such a personal thing . Like my husband , cannot

30:44

spend more than an hour on the beach , which

30:47

means so many Caribbean

30:50

beach vacations and cruises

30:52

and going to the Seychelles or

30:55

Mallorca .

30:57

You live in the wrong place .

31:00

Yeah , I mean we live in Miami but we don't go to the

31:02

beach that often because he's just not a beachgoer

31:04

and therefore

31:06

a lot of people's idea of vacation

31:08

, which is palm trees and sand , is

31:11

not his idea of vacation . He would

31:13

much prefer to spend two days

31:15

in Amsterdam exploring culture and

31:18

going to museums . That's his idea

31:20

of vacation .

31:21

And understanding that , for what your

31:23

stakeholders , what your partners want , is

31:25

absolutely critical to making sure that

31:28

they have a good vacation or a good experience

31:30

in you delivering the product .

31:31

Exactly 100% , and

31:34

therefore you could really use these questions anywhere

31:36

.

31:36

This is brilliant . I absolutely love the metaphors , I love

31:39

the storytelling . This is really relatable

31:41

, it's really useful and it's been fantastic

31:43

. Thank you so much , tammy .

31:45

Thank you for having me , randy , it's been great .

31:56

The product experience is the first and

31:59

the best podcast

32:01

from mine the product . Our

32:03

hosts are me , lily Smith and

32:06

me , Randy Silver . Lu

32:08

Run Pratt is our producer and Luke

32:10

Smith is our editor .

32:12

Our theme music is from Hamburg based band

32:14

POW . That's PAU . Thanks

32:16

to Arnie Kittler , who curates both product

32:18

tank and MTP engage in Hamburg

32:21

and who also plays bass in the band

32:23

, for letting us use their music . You

32:25

can connect with your local product community

32:27

via product tank regular free

32:29

meetups in over 200 cities worldwide

32:32

.

32:33

If there's not one near you , maybe you should think

32:35

about starting one . To find out

32:37

more , go to minetheproductcom

32:39

. Forward slash product tank .