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shall be friendship between the Romans

1:56

and their allies and the Carthaginians

1:58

and theirs. on these

2:01

conditions. The Romans and

2:03

their allies shall not sail beyond the

2:05

promontory just north of Carthage unless compelled

2:07

to by storm or by enemy action.

2:10

If any of them are swept by winds beyond

2:12

it, they shall not buy or remove anything more

2:15

than is required for the repair of the ship

2:17

or for sacrifice, and they shall

2:19

depart within five days. If

2:22

any Roman enters the Carthaginian sphere of

2:24

influence in Italy, he shall enjoy

2:26

equal rights with others. As

2:29

regards those Latin peoples who are not subject

2:31

to the Romans, the Carthaginians shall not have

2:33

dealings with any of these cities, and should

2:35

they capture one of them, they are to

2:37

deliver it up to the Romans undamaged.

2:41

Should they enter the region bearing arms,

2:43

they are not to spend more than

2:46

a single night there. So

2:49

that might sound a little bit obscure,

2:51

but actually that is an enormously fascinating

2:54

historical document because that is

2:56

the detail of the very

2:58

first treaty signed by the

3:00

future superpowers of the Mediterranean,

3:03

the great powers that have

3:05

dominated the world's imagination for so long, and

3:07

they are Carthage and Rome, and that was

3:09

signed in the year 509 BC. And

3:14

the text comes from a bronze tablet kept

3:16

in the capital in Rome.

3:20

And Tom Holland, I think I'm right

3:22

in saying that it's a Latin so

3:24

ancient and obscure that nobody knows, well

3:26

somebody must know, but very few people

3:28

know how to decipher it. Is that

3:30

right? It is an amazing, amazing text,

3:32

and it's recorded by Polybius who we've

3:34

been talking about this Greek who writes

3:36

a history of the great wars that

3:38

are fought between Rome and Carthage, and

3:40

he reports yes that this text is

3:42

very very hard for people to decipher,

3:44

but obviously the Romans keep it because

3:46

they know that it is an

3:49

absolutely key historical document, and

3:51

it really is. It's amazing all the

3:53

stuff that we've been talking about in

3:55

previous episodes about Carthage, you know we're

3:57

dependent on Greeks writing stuff about two

3:59

centuries. before or whatever, but this

4:01

seems to be an authentic record of

4:04

the dealings between Carthage and this

4:07

emergent power in central Italy, this

4:09

city called Rome, which really has

4:11

not intruded at all on the

4:13

imaginations of outside peoples until this

4:15

point. So at this point, they're

4:17

not the great superpowers, right? They're

4:19

absolutely not a great superpower, no.

4:21

They're absolutely not. And it's

4:23

fascinating because it does kind of give an

4:25

insight into what we were talking in the

4:27

previous episode about how Carthage in the, so

4:29

this is the sixth century, is kind

4:32

of maintaining its power. It's a commercial

4:34

empire and so it is

4:36

trying to arrange treaties with

4:38

all kinds of different powers. They don't have

4:40

to be superpowers. They can be kind of

4:43

minor powers like Rome. Yeah. So

4:45

just to recap, because obviously this is a

4:47

Monday episode and lots of people might not

4:49

have heard the series from last week. So

4:51

remind us who the Carthaginians are, where they

4:53

came from and where Carthagin is. So Carthage

4:56

is the most powerful and the richest city

4:58

in the sixth, the fifth, the fourth centuries

5:00

BC. It's very near where

5:02

Tunis is now. So it's a North Africa

5:04

or that kind of point of Africa pointing

5:06

up towards Sicily. And

5:09

Carthage at this point, when this treaty

5:11

is signed, its prime interest is in

5:13

keeping the Greeks out of the Western

5:15

Mediterranean. And so the Carthaginians have lots

5:18

of commercial interests. And we

5:20

know this, for instance, because not far north

5:22

of Rome in this period, there's a town

5:24

called Caerie, which belongs to a people called

5:26

the Etruscans. And they

5:29

have a coastal settlement that is

5:31

so full of Carthaginian merchants that

5:33

it's actually called Punicum. So Punicus

5:35

is the Latin word for Carthaginian.

5:38

And the Etruscans are kind of mysterious,

5:40

powerful people at this point. They have

5:43

a famously indecipherable language. They

5:45

have a tremendous genius for reading

5:47

the future. So they're experts in

5:49

kind of reading the entrails of animals and all

5:51

that kind of thing. And they

5:53

seem to have had a delightful domestic life. So

5:56

women have a very high status and all these

5:58

kind of wonderful funerary sculptures of of

6:00

husbands and wives sitting on couches having a

6:03

lovely time, as though they're kind of sat

6:05

down watching the TV or something. And

6:07

so they're simultaneously mysterious people, but when

6:09

you look at the sculptures that the

6:11

Etruscans did, you feel almost like you

6:13

know them. OK. And in this

6:16

period, Rome is not an Etruscan city, but

6:18

it culturally, and some have

6:20

argued militarily, it may be kind

6:22

of subject certainly to

6:24

Etruscan influence. And so

6:27

for this reason, it makes sense for the

6:29

Carthaginians. They're allied with the Etruscans against the

6:31

Greeks, and it makes sense for them to

6:33

sign a treaty with Rome as well. So

6:35

at this point, what are we, the sixth

6:37

century? In the last episode, we

6:39

talked loads about the Carthaginians and the Greeks squabbling

6:42

for control of Sicily.

6:45

So by this point, the sixth century

6:47

BC, they're expanding their influence into mainland

6:50

Italy as well. Is that right? But

6:52

not in an imperialist way. They're trying

6:54

to construct kind of trade treaties. They're

6:57

kind of like Liz Truss going

6:59

around. Global

7:01

Carthage. With a little bit more success, I

7:03

think is fair. With a little bit more

7:06

success, yes. So basically, they're trying to ensure

7:08

that their sphere of influence is protected. So

7:10

that's why the Romans are agreeing not, for

7:12

instance, to go crashing into Africa. That's

7:15

why there are kind of requirements that their

7:17

ships are not allowed to intrude into Carthaginian

7:19

waters. But equally, the Carthaginians are saying that

7:22

they will respect Rome's power. And

7:24

it offers a glimpse of

7:26

Rome at the beginning of her career.

7:29

And this is fascinating because,

7:31

of course, we know what is going to

7:33

happen with Rome. We know

7:35

that Rome is going to

7:38

become the supreme carnival, the

7:40

apex predator of antiquity.

7:43

And what we're seeing here is

7:45

the infancy of this predator.

7:48

And I think that we are so attuned

7:51

to the idea of the Roman Empire just

7:53

existing, the idea that the Romans are this

7:55

great military power. But

7:57

the puzzle is, why are they so successful? What is it?

8:00

it about Rome that makes them

8:02

the city that will emerge as

8:04

the great rival of Carthage and

8:06

in a spoiler alert fight three

8:08

terrible wars that in the long

8:10

run will culminate in the after

8:12

destruction of Carthage. Yes. And

8:14

I think that there are clues

8:16

here. So certainly Rome is a significant regional

8:19

power. It clearly has control over,

8:21

you know, so there's reference there to Latins. Latins

8:24

are Latin speakers, cities around Rome and

8:26

there is a sense in this treaty

8:28

that Rome has established a regional

8:30

dominance over them. So

8:32

that's fascinating. But I think even more intriguing is the

8:34

date of this. So it's 509 BC. This

8:38

is the date that's given by Polybius. And

8:40

this is the date that traditionally the

8:42

Romans saw as being the great change

8:44

in their city's history from a monarchy

8:47

to a Republican system of government. Oh,

8:49

this is when they kicked out Tarka

8:51

in the Proud. Tarka in the Proud.

8:53

So the story goes that they've had

8:55

seven kings, you know, descended from Romulus,

8:57

the founder of the city. Tarka is

8:59

the seventh. He has a son

9:01

called by Macaulay and the great Victorian

9:03

writer in the 19th century. Full

9:06

sextus. Full sextus. Full

9:08

sextus. And he rapes

9:10

a noble Roman virgin. She

9:12

kills herself in front of her father

9:15

and the Roman aristocracy and the

9:17

people are so appalled by the crime

9:19

that sextus has committed that they throw

9:22

both sextus and Tarka out of Rome.

9:24

There's an attempt by an Etruscan king

9:26

called Lars Bocena to try and take

9:28

Rome back. But the Etruscan

9:30

ranks are kept at bay by Horatius

9:32

and two of his friends who stand

9:34

on the bridge. Oh yeah, the bridge.

9:37

Love Horatius on the bridge. While the

9:39

other Romans hack it down, two of

9:41

the defenders scarper back. Horatius stands there.

9:43

The bridge comes crashing down. Horatius in

9:45

full armour jumps into the Tiber. You

9:47

know, is he going to drown? No, he makes it

9:49

to the Roman side. Even

9:51

the ranks of Tuscany could scarce forbear

9:53

to cheer. So all very dramatic. Yeah,

9:55

I love it. Very novelistic. Possibly

9:58

not entirely true. What? Tom, don't

10:00

do this. Don't do this. You're better than that.

10:03

But, Dominic, but the fact that this treaty is

10:05

signed in 509 suggests

10:07

that the traditional dating is

10:09

probably accurate, that something radical

10:12

did happen in 509. Because

10:14

otherwise the Carthaginians would not have needed to

10:17

regularize their relations at Rome. Yes. So probably

10:19

this is an attempt to reset relationships after

10:21

what effectively has been a kind of revolution.

10:24

Now, in later generations, and so particularly

10:26

the time when the Romans are fighting

10:29

the Carthaginians, and they are trying

10:31

to make sense of their own path, the

10:33

story they tell about how the Republic comes into being

10:35

is that the King is expelled

10:38

and his powers get divided

10:40

up between two elected magistrates

10:42

called Consuls. And you remember we

10:44

talked in the previous episode that

10:46

Carthaginians actually have something quite similar

10:49

called Sufis. Are the Romans

10:51

ripping off the Carthaginian system, Tom? Well,

10:53

also the marker of a Consul is

10:55

that he wears a purple bordered robe

10:57

and of course the dye comes from

10:59

Carthage. Molusks, Carthaginian mollusks, crushed mollusks. Oh

11:01

my word. You can tell I've been

11:03

paying attention to the last two episodes.

11:05

Having said that, I mean, I think

11:07

the Carthaginians are not influencing this at

11:09

all. It's being instituted for very Roman

11:11

reasons. The idea being that the Consuls are

11:13

elected for one year, they each keep an

11:15

eye on the other. And it's

11:17

this whole idea that no one man

11:20

in the wake of the expulsion of

11:22

the monarchy should be allowed to seize

11:24

absolute power. This is the kind of

11:26

the great principle of the Republic. And

11:30

according to the Roman traditional accounts of what

11:32

happens in the century after the founding of

11:34

the Republic, it works. So Roman historians, you

11:37

know, they say that there are kind of

11:39

social convulsions, that there are demands from the

11:41

mass of the people for improved civic rights,

11:44

lots of constitutional reforms. But

11:46

the Republic, according to Roman

11:48

historians, does not kind of

11:50

implode into civil

11:52

war, into revolutionary activity.

11:55

And this is because the Romans will

11:58

demonstrate a genius for being simultaneously. very,

12:00

very innovative, but very, very traditional. You know,

12:02

you said this is very Roman reasons and

12:04

all that. Isn't it possible

12:07

that you only think that because Rome is so successful? So

12:10

this could be a widely practiced thing, or

12:12

it could be something because you said in

12:14

the last episode that we knew

12:17

very little about Carthage's constitutional arrangements and

12:19

Carthage is far more influential than Rome

12:21

at this point. Is it not possible

12:23

that the Romans took this from Carthage? Then

12:26

Rome became tremendously successful. So we say, oh,

12:28

well, of course, this is very Roman keeping

12:30

competition within bounds, all that kind of thing.

12:32

So Roman, you know, the predatory ruthless and

12:35

so very Roman. But we're

12:37

only thinking that because we're projecting backwards,

12:39

as it were. I think you are

12:41

absolutely right that there is a problem

12:43

with taking what the Romans said about

12:46

the first century of the Republic as

12:48

being historically true. But I think that

12:50

what they believed matters for understanding how

12:53

they will behave in the wars against

12:55

Carthage, because they

12:57

do have a sense of themselves as

12:59

being distinctive. And it's evident that in

13:01

their ability to project violence

13:05

and their refusal ever to accept

13:07

surrender, there is something very, very

13:09

strange about it. So in that sense, I

13:11

think it's worth just looking at how the

13:14

Romans, you know, in the period when they

13:16

are fighting the Carthaginians, how they understood their

13:18

past and how they explained what they were

13:20

about. So Polybius, for instance,

13:22

this Greek historian who we've been talking

13:24

about, he is trying to make sense

13:27

of this puzzle. How is it that

13:29

the Romans have defeated Carthage, have gone

13:31

on to overthrow the various Macedonian kingdoms?

13:34

I mean, how have they done it? And his

13:36

explanation is that the masses are basically

13:38

incredibly superstitious, that the elites are very

13:41

cynical. But I think

13:43

that this is a very Greek perspective, because

13:45

just as the Greeks don't really understand Carthage,

13:47

they don't really understand Rome either. And the

13:49

truth is that the Republic, like Carthage, is

13:52

not a Greek state. Greek states

13:54

are regularly being shattered by civil

13:56

wars, by revolutions, by social tensions.

14:00

Genuinely seems to be impervious to these

14:02

kind of disasters You know you do

14:04

not see the blood of its citizens

14:06

being spilled on the streets in civil

14:08

strife And that is

14:10

because I think the Romans authentically have

14:12

an ideal of Shared

14:15

citizenship it's incredibly well I

14:17

might say sacral to them

14:19

and our word Republic comes

14:21

from raised publica. It means

14:23

kind of public business Mm-hmm

14:25

so every Roman by the

14:28

time that the wars against Carthage are

14:30

being fought every Roman has this ideal

14:33

That his sense of self-worth

14:35

exists in the context of what his fellows

14:37

think about him Yeah, so the Romans have

14:39

this word on nestas which means moral

14:41

excellence, but it also means reputation the two

14:44

are kind of Indistinguishable the

14:46

Romans don't separate the two out

14:49

There are basically two parollaries of this

14:51

so the first is that this stuff

14:53

about the consuls these kind of rival

14:55

magistrates Who are simultaneously kind of working

14:57

together? yeah, this

14:59

is what every Roman wants and This

15:02

is the supreme honor and every

15:04

time that there is a kind of

15:06

specific Convulsion in Rome more magistracies are

15:08

given meaning that there are more prizes

15:10

meaning that there are more opportunities for

15:13

Romans to rise up through the ranks

15:15

to gain honor And so

15:17

the effect of that is to kind of

15:19

channel the ambition for glory that Roman

15:22

society seems to have encouraged and keep

15:24

it within civic bounds So

15:26

it works for the benefit of the whole

15:28

mass of the people for the raised publica

15:30

for the Republic Yeah, rather than kind of

15:32

fragmenting outwards and setting powerful men against powerful

15:34

men. So that's one corollary

15:37

of it every Roman right from the

15:39

lowest right the way up to the top is Heen

15:42

for the kind of glory that

15:44

is judged by your fellow citizens

15:47

So it gives an incredibly powerful

15:49

civic identity But of

15:51

course, this is terrible news for the

15:53

Romans neighbors because how do you obtain

15:55

glory basically by going out and and

15:58

fighting? And conquering your nation neighbors.

16:01

And so every citizen is

16:03

expected to fight. So the

16:05

word legion, allegio, is a

16:07

levy. Every citizen is

16:09

expected when war is summoned to go

16:11

out into the campus marshes, the plane

16:13

of Mars, which stretches outside the walls

16:15

of Rome, and to be enrolled in

16:17

allegio, in a legion. And

16:19

this commitment never to accept disrespect, never

16:22

to accept dishonor is manifest in what

16:24

to their enemy seems a kind of

16:26

terrifying commitment to violence. So when the

16:28

Romans capture a city, it's not just

16:31

that has kind of resisted them that

16:33

has refused to surrender or who's committed

16:35

some kind of perceived crime

16:37

against Rome. The legions will not

16:40

only take the city by storm,

16:42

but they will kill every living

16:44

creature within it. So, you know,

16:46

dismembered dogs, dogs, the heads of

16:48

cattle and horses kind of littering

16:50

the streets. So it's terrifying. But

16:52

they're not barbarians. They're fighting in a

16:54

kind of coherent civic body. It's just

16:57

that, you know, this is an utterly

16:59

lethal predator. Not convinced that's much consolation

17:01

to the dogs. But anyway, there you

17:03

go. No, no consolation at all. I

17:05

mean, you would not want to be

17:07

a dog in a city that

17:09

has offended the Romans. No, I mean, absolutely

17:13

terrifying. So with

17:15

those who resist them, they are

17:17

terrifying. But there is also

17:19

again, and this is something that contrasts with the

17:21

Greeks. You think of a city like Sparta that

17:23

is so xenophobic that they won't even allow strangers

17:25

into their city. The

17:28

Romans are very, very

17:30

generous with their citizenship. And again,

17:32

this bewilders the Greek. So

17:34

according to legends, you think of Athens, the

17:36

story there is that people rise up from

17:38

the soil that the Athenians are born from

17:40

the earth of Attica. The Romans

17:42

freely admit that when Romulus founded the

17:45

city, he summoned people from all around

17:47

kind of criminals, escaped slaves, whoever it

17:49

didn't matter. These are where the Romans

17:51

come from, according to their own legends.

17:54

And even the most powerful of

17:56

dynasties in Rome are perfectly happy

17:58

to celebrate their immigrant life. status.

18:00

So you think of one of the most

18:02

famous political dynasties in Rome, the Claudians, which

18:04

will, you know, the Emperor Claudius is a

18:07

descendant of them. According to

18:09

tradition, this is founded by a guy

18:11

called Attius Clausus, who migrates to Rome

18:13

from the kind of the hills beyond

18:15

Rome, six years after the founding of

18:17

the Republic, so in 503. And

18:20

a decade later, he's become consul. And

18:22

from that time on, the Claudians absolutely

18:24

dominate the list of consuls. So there

18:27

will be Claudians taking a part throughout

18:29

the history of the Punic Wars. And

18:32

it's not just kind of powerful people or

18:34

immigrants coming into the city. The Romans are

18:36

also very, very good at integrating cities that

18:38

they've defeated. So in the 350s, this is 150 years

18:42

after that peace treaty that the Romans

18:44

signed with Carthage. Yeah, Rome is

18:46

still the dominant power in central Italy. But

18:48

then in 340, all the Latin cities rebel

18:51

against Rome. And basically,

18:53

they're annoyed at being treated as subjects

18:55

rather than allies. And the

18:57

Romans defeat this rebellion, but they kind of

18:59

draw a lesson from it that what had

19:01

previously been a kind of a league of

19:03

the Latin cities, kind of like, you know,

19:05

a Latin European Union, this is no longer

19:07

acceptable, every city is going to have to

19:10

be treated individually. And so

19:12

the Romans divide and rule with the

19:14

Latin cities. So some are enrolled as

19:16

Roman citizens, others are given

19:18

a kind of subordinate citizenship. Cities

19:21

that had been inveterately rebellious are treated

19:23

very harshly. So you know, their walls

19:25

are raised, their elites are sent into

19:27

exile. One of them has its

19:29

entire fleet confiscated, the Romans take the prowess of

19:32

the fleet, which they called rostra, and put them

19:34

up in the forum, the great central space in

19:36

Rome, to be a kind of place where orators

19:38

will go and stand. And this is where we

19:41

get our word rostra from. And

19:43

this kind of provides the blueprint that will

19:45

be followed throughout the entire history of the

19:47

Roman Empire, that you go in hard against

19:49

your enemies. But those who

19:51

are defeated or surrender or submit,

19:53

you treat them very, very generously.

19:55

And perhaps you enroll them as citizens,

19:58

more citizens mean larger armies. larger

20:00

armies mean more conquests, more conquests mean more

20:02

citizens. So can we draw a contrast with

20:05

Carthage? So while the Romans are doing all

20:07

this, what's that? Fourth century BC. Carthage is

20:09

top dog in the Mediterranean. But does Carthage

20:11

do anything like this Tom? Because Carthage obviously

20:14

has colonies, doesn't it? It has trading stations,

20:16

it has vorts. But has

20:18

it got any similar history of incorporating?

20:20

Are the Romans unique in that regard,

20:22

would you say? I think they are

20:25

unique. So Carthage has mercenaries. The

20:27

mercenaries obviously do not have any civic sense

20:30

of belonging to a single body, a

20:33

raised publica. And that is

20:35

a real difference between the Carthaginian and

20:37

the Roman way of making war.

20:40

And in the long run, the Roman way

20:42

of making war will show itself to be

20:44

much more successful. But war

20:46

between Roman Carthage in the

20:48

middle of the fourth century is still a long way

20:50

off. And so in 348, a decade before

20:54

that Latin uprising that I was talking about, there's

20:56

a second treaty between Roman

20:58

Carthage. And it's almost identical

21:00

to the previous one. And in

21:02

fact, actually, it's slightly more favorable to

21:04

Carthage because they specify that Romans are

21:06

not allowed to, for instance, go and

21:08

found a colony in Sardinia, and the

21:10

Romans have to accept this. And

21:13

you may wonder, well, if the Romans are

21:16

this kind of predator in waiting, this

21:18

great carnivore, how is it that basically in

21:20

the space of 150 years since the founding

21:22

of the Republic, they haven't done better? I mean,

21:25

what's going on there? And I

21:27

think that the answer to that is pointing to the

21:29

point you raised earlier, which is that

21:32

actually, it's not the

21:34

founding of the Republic that changes everything,

21:37

but another event. Because

21:39

I think that the great event,

21:41

the great turning point happens actually

21:43

in 390, when

21:45

Rome is sacked by a great army

21:47

of Gauls. So the geese, absolutely the

21:49

geese. So the Romans go out to

21:52

meet this great war band of Gauls,

21:54

they get annihilated at a battle, the

21:57

anniversary of it will forever be commemorated as the

21:59

darkest day. in the Roman calendar. The

22:02

ghouls then lay siege to the capital. They're

22:04

climbing up the side of the capital.

22:06

The watchdogs don't bark. The geese hiss.

22:10

The capital is saved. And

22:12

from that point on, every year on the

22:14

anniversary of that, the geese on the capital

22:16

will be taken down into the forum to

22:18

witness the crucifixion of the guard dogs. So

22:22

all very odd. But this story

22:24

doesn't disguise the fact that it was

22:26

a humiliating defeat, that Rome

22:28

has to buy off the ghouls. They

22:31

hand over all their treasure. The ghouls

22:33

demand more. The Romans object and say

22:35

that this wasn't in the treaty. And

22:37

the ghouls famously say, vivictus woe to

22:39

the defeated. And this

22:41

seems to have affected the Romans

22:43

as the most terrible shock,

22:46

the most terrible humiliation. And

22:48

they seem to have resolved that from

22:50

that point onwards, they would never again

22:53

accept anyone disrespecting them.

22:56

And there are a number of

22:58

brilliant scholarly studies that kind of

23:02

try to make sense of this by saying

23:04

that essentially the story of there being this

23:06

kind of common civic identity that had existed

23:08

since the Republic is actually not true. That

23:10

really it's with the defeat by the ghouls

23:12

that you start to get this integration of

23:14

the aristocracy and the mass of the people,

23:17

right, and the sense of a kind of

23:19

aggressive, common civic

23:21

identity and purpose. And

23:23

so it's in the decades that follow the

23:26

sack of Rome by the ghouls that you

23:28

seem to see the emergence of a citizen

23:30

army. So actually before then, is

23:32

this not Jeremy Alexander's brilliant book, Tom? It

23:35

is. Yes. Yes. Which I've been talking to

23:37

you about. It's just the argument that he

23:39

makes that Rome was far more divided than

23:41

we think. And actually it's the trauma of

23:43

defeat. Yes. That means they have to bind

23:46

themselves together into a common civic culture, kind

23:48

of martial culture and say never again, you

23:50

know, yeah, well, actually, it's that classic thing

23:52

of people being brought together.

23:55

It's the foundation of so many

23:57

nationalisms, the external threats that provides

23:59

the Yeah, so the book

24:01

you mentioned, War and Society in Early

24:03

Rome, From Warlords to Generals, and that's

24:06

by Jeremy Armstrong, and his argument is

24:08

essentially is that the elites, so people

24:10

like Clausus, you know, this ancestor of

24:12

the Claudians, that these are like kind

24:14

of superstar galacticos who drift around from,

24:16

you know, top club to top club

24:19

and don't have any particular loyalty to

24:21

the club that they're in. What really

24:24

matters is their own status, their own

24:26

profile. They're Jordan Anderson, Tom. Yeah, they're

24:28

quite Jordan Anderson. And that

24:30

the mass of the Roman people therefore

24:32

feel a disconnect from these galacticos, but

24:35

that the fact of their city

24:37

by the Gauls changes that. And

24:40

the aristocracy, as well as the mass of

24:42

people, start to have a shared identity of

24:44

being Roman. And this is where you get

24:46

the emergence of the aristocracy as a

24:48

common group of people called the Senate. The

24:51

mass of people, they have their assemblies, they have

24:53

their voice. These are the people who will elect

24:56

the consuls and the various other

24:58

magistrates. You have the emergence of

25:00

the citizen army. You can tell

25:02

from archaeology that armour is starting

25:05

to become less showy, which in

25:07

turn means that it's more affordable.

25:09

So the mass of people can

25:11

now afford it. The walls around

25:13

Rome are renewed and improved. And

25:15

basically, Rome has become a kind

25:17

of mutant state. It's a state

25:19

like no other. And the

25:22

mutant quality is its absolute

25:26

refusal ever to suffer

25:28

humiliation. No Roman,

25:31

from this point on, is willing

25:33

to tolerate a loss of face. And

25:36

rather than endure humiliation, a Roman

25:38

will go to any length, basically,

25:40

to ensure that that doesn't happen.

25:43

And so Rome, in the wake

25:45

of the sack by the Gauls,

25:47

has become a state that is

25:49

kind of uniquely lethal, but

25:53

from the point of view of the Romans, uniquely

25:55

glorious. And so the

25:57

result is that with the suppression of that Latin uprising,

26:00

in 338, Rome now has

26:02

incredible reserves of manpower because it's

26:04

enrolled the people of these defeated

26:06

cities into its own citizen body.

26:09

And that gives it a

26:12

resource that kind of has elevated

26:14

it from the level of a

26:16

regional power pretty much to

26:18

the level of Carthage, a level with

26:20

the Greek kingdoms in the east. Carthage

26:22

is rich. Carthage is trading all the

26:24

time. Carthage has loads of money. Does

26:26

Rome have loads of money? Yeah,

26:28

I mean, Rome is rich because it's a plunder-based

26:30

society. So that's how it gets its wealth. It's

26:33

not a trading society. At this point, it doesn't

26:35

have a fleet. It doesn't have a maritime tradition

26:37

at all. But of course, what

26:39

it has that Carthage doesn't have is

26:41

manpower. And

26:44

it is manpower that is

26:47

what you need in this kind of world. The

26:49

Carthaginians can pay people to fight for them, but

26:51

the Romans don't need to do that. They

26:53

have lots of people who are desperate to get out

26:55

and fight. So when Carthage

26:57

signed that treaty a decade before,

27:00

Rome was a secondary power. Now it isn't.

27:03

And the consequences of that for

27:05

the peoples of Italy and

27:07

in the long run for the Carthaginians

27:10

will be devastating. And for the world.

27:12

And for the world. Okay, come back

27:14

after the break to find out what

27:16

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27:19

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28:52

Seaside for details. Now,

29:01

in general, the Romans rely upon force in

29:03

all their undertakings. And consider that having set

29:06

themselves a task, they're bound

29:08

to carry it through. And

29:10

similarly, that nothing is impossible

29:13

once they've decided to attempt

29:15

it. So, Tom, I know that's your personal motto, isn't

29:17

it? And that's from Polybius.

29:19

Absolutely. Well, it's the motto of the

29:21

podcast, isn't it? You absolutely believe both in the use

29:24

of force and that nothing is impossible and

29:26

that nothing is impossible when you set your mind to it.

29:29

So, that's Polybius talking about the

29:32

Romans. That's taken them very much at their own

29:34

estimation, isn't it? It is. That they're

29:36

incredibly hard and nothing is beyond them. But bear

29:38

in mind that Polybius, you know, I mean, he's

29:40

a Greek who's been taken as a captive to

29:42

Rome, so he's in a position to appreciate it.

29:44

But is that true? I mean, let's be honest.

29:46

Are they invincible? Are they peerless, all

29:49

those things? Let us look

29:51

at the evidence. So, if we

29:53

accept the thesis that was posited

29:55

just before the break, that the

29:57

great turning point is... Three

30:00

Ninety Bc. A sack of

30:02

ride bicycles and the determination of the

30:05

Raymond from that point on never again

30:07

to risk such a humiliation. Yeah, I

30:09

maybe it takes them a few decades

30:11

to forwards this new kind of society,

30:14

one in which the drive for honor.

30:16

Is. Something. That

30:19

can be turned against reigns neighbors

30:21

well by the three forties or

30:23

the last. In cities around Rome

30:25

has been. Utterly subordinated to

30:28

Raymond authority, lots of them has

30:30

been enrolled within the city. Somebody

30:32

if one of. What? Happens

30:34

next. How does this reliance upon

30:36

force that Libya's identifies? How does

30:38

it manifest itself in the context

30:41

of Italian politics? So south of

30:43

lace him as the land of

30:45

the Latins there is Campania Is.

30:48

Which. His Naples Capua bases Greek cities

30:50

Pompei sheltering under that map. Cvs

30:52

rich, prosperous, civilized but up in

30:54

the mountains you have a people

30:57

called the some nights very hardy

30:59

warriors gap whose ancestors supposedly were

31:01

led to their from not far

31:03

from Rome by depending on he

31:05

told the story a bow or

31:07

wolf or woodpecker soon one of

31:09

he led by a woodpecker with

31:11

his I just have also think

31:13

I would I was thinking about

31:16

this I think I would choose

31:18

because. At least you wouldn't listen with you. Read.

31:20

Always fail to hear him knocking on

31:22

a tree episode Demeaning. And then I

31:24

think I think a boon fine for

31:27

a booth is better. and Woodpeckers definitely

31:29

said anyway. Okay so you're not t

31:31

woodpecker know Anyway, so these are people

31:33

who are viewed even by the ravens

31:35

is being yeah very very savage season

31:37

than a tourist fair practicing witchcraft say

31:39

they were great, has the rings of

31:42

I and round their neck and that

31:44

it's that supposedly given to saving their

31:46

private parts in public. Can the system

31:48

Woodpecker Issues Now I mean this. Is

31:50

this is what happens when you go down that road?

31:54

And they they will live long in the

31:56

raymond imagination he needs to sentries off to

31:58

is because say it. The to wearing very

32:01

sick belts and elements with great bobbing

32:03

crests and this is a style that

32:05

will become very popular with gladiators. So

32:07

you think the classic images the gladiator

32:09

with it's bobbing crassness, great big belt

32:11

or it's this is Sam light armor

32:13

as they say. a few to buy

32:15

a set need that people down in

32:17

the planes of Campania him with contempt.

32:19

Not unreasonably I would say to save

32:21

the Greeks particularly safe as as it's

32:23

a hostile relations between some nights and

32:25

the campaign in some that's or was

32:27

coming down trying to kind of bully

32:29

and intimidate. But cap you and the Neapolitan

32:31

than a go off with a cast all

32:34

that kind of thing. And so. In.

32:36

The second half of the for sentry, the

32:39

Raymond who and now the great power in

32:41

Central Leslie. Gets into this and

32:43

they can comment on the side of

32:45

Capua they start fighting. Gets Simon Lights

32:47

they sang. Get distracted by the last

32:49

two not rising. Yeah and when they

32:51

regime hostilities and three four one the

32:53

satellites immediately come to terms the Ravens

32:55

patch up an alliance with some nights

32:57

the campaign he and some are siding

32:59

with the last hints. I so very

33:01

confusing. Okay, but I think what is

33:03

obvious from this kind of whole confusing

33:05

milan of Ravens fighting some light on

33:07

behalf of the campaigners have a campaign

33:09

is than fighting for Latin said. Get

33:11

some of. His old incredibly both

33:13

him. What's clear is that the

33:16

Romans ah. Basically. Going

33:18

to be going to war with some nights

33:20

and so it turns out because in three

33:22

to six war places out again and this

33:25

will last twenty two years. And

33:27

the Raymond carry it on, despite the

33:30

fact that they suffer one of their

33:32

most humiliating defeat when they get trapped

33:34

in a narrow valley called the Codeine

33:36

for a case and the sap ions

33:39

rather than massacring them. They. Play

33:41

by the rules because there are accepted rules

33:43

in Italian warfare. She kept to your enemy

33:45

in a you force them to submit said

33:47

you make her a joke you have to

33:49

spears stuck in the ground and then he

33:52

put another spare across it and they defeated

33:54

army. Has this thread been nice? This joke

33:56

They have to agree to end the war

33:58

and they have to a. That the terms

34:00

of the Conqueror say we in this context

34:03

after the defeat of the cat died for.

34:05

To Raymond council's who had been in charge

34:07

of the army agree that they will withdraw.

34:09

What the Ravens complain The I. Which.

34:12

Are colonies and then the english

34:14

word comes from which are kind

34:16

of plantations of romans in enemy

34:18

territory to the raymond have planted

34:20

play knew I'd in some the

34:22

him and the condition. Of

34:24

their army being allowed to go is

34:26

that they will withdraw this and they

34:28

swear this to the golf settle this

34:30

kind of thing but what about this

34:32

thing about the Romans wouldn't do any

34:34

suffering brother and be humiliated right? exactly

34:36

So when see to legions come down

34:38

from some the him into Campania. That.

34:40

To humiliated even to say their

34:43

faces in Papua. The. So embarrassed

34:45

they feel a few nights the set the cap

34:47

you in Santa that the Raymond stab at west

34:49

will. they let themselves data and when they get

34:51

back home to Rome. They just go

34:53

in, lock themselves up in their homes and went come

34:55

out. And say the same of this is something

34:57

that. Is clearly insufferable

34:59

and say one of the council's who

35:02

has agreed to the terms stands up

35:04

in the senate. And says

35:06

look guys it was me and

35:08

my cancer colleague who agreed this

35:10

you the Raymond people did not

35:12

agree This. So. You can

35:14

carry on the war. Of course this

35:17

will require me and my colleague to

35:19

be handed over naked and settles to

35:21

the some nights but because we a

35:23

patch of the Romans we are willing

35:26

to accept that. I say this is

35:28

what happens with the ravens returned to

35:30

watch the consultative into the same nights.

35:33

The. Sunlight stay know what to do with them Says send them

35:35

back. To their still playing by

35:37

the traditional roof and the Romans embark

35:40

on a kind of total war. Endless

35:42

grueling sequence of campaigns but by

35:44

three for the some nights in

35:46

a the have no choice but

35:48

to see for terms as another

35:50

cycle of war that breaks out

35:52

in nine Eight But by to

35:54

ninety the Sunlight have been decisively

35:56

defeated. Raymond colonies of planted across

35:58

their lands. the Sunlight themselves for

36:00

the become allies of rain much

36:02

of their land is the next

36:04

and essentially the satellites are now

36:06

been absorbed into the operator suffer

36:08

Raymond War Missy. Meanwhile.

36:11

Even. As the Ravens been fighting the

36:13

some nights, they've also been going northwards,

36:15

attacking the Etruscan cities, conquering them, absorbing

36:17

them into their framework of alliances. Yep,

36:19

even the goals in the north of

36:22

Italy are being forced to submit. I

36:24

am by to a size. Services.

36:26

In a within the lifetime. Since.

36:29

That treaty with Carthage was signed. The.

36:32

Romans of com could pretty much the

36:34

whole of Italy and all that remains

36:36

really independent is the Greek cities in

36:38

the south say Mackinac writer as the

36:40

Raymond school that such tests poor second

36:42

and looked to costs heads the Carthaginian

36:44

at that point do not have column

36:46

is and territories on the mainland of

36:49

Italy and never have. Is

36:51

that right? They have trading colonies so

36:53

that kind of like car. So Hong

36:55

Kong and Singapore type places. Not exactly

36:57

because I'm not administered by the Carthaginian,

36:59

but there are can colonies of Carthaginian

37:01

merchants within all these very cities and

37:04

bust his. What the treaties I've agreed

37:06

to. But they haven't been conquered by

37:08

the Romans. Or they have. they have

37:10

been caused by the Romans. Yeah, by

37:12

the Romans just letting the Carthaginian merchants

37:14

in those places crack on with the

37:16

guess Because the Ravens treaty with Carthage

37:19

Sprites provides for cities that are dominated.

37:21

By Rome. Okay, so the provisions of

37:23

the treaty with right now governs the

37:25

whole of Italy understood say, rape and

37:27

Carthage are still allies at this point.

37:29

Yeah, and actually, the fact that Rome

37:31

is now gearing up to attack the

37:33

Greek colonies in the south of Italy,

37:35

the area that has been settled much

37:38

as Sicily had been in Italy also

37:40

been settled by. The.

37:42

Greeks are the enemies of the Carthaginian, the Romans

37:44

and are having a crack at the Greeks service.

37:47

Every reason for the Carthaginian in the raymond still

37:49

yes to be allies. And the

37:51

most powerful Greek city in the south is

37:53

to rent him founded by the Spartans. Many

37:55

any such as before observing that kind of

37:58

military tradition, but the Ravens clearly. Powerful

38:00

for the trend times on their own

38:02

to resist and so they look around

38:04

for an ally. And fortunately for the

38:06

trend time such an ally is there.

38:09

Just on the other side of the

38:11

Adriatic in the mountainous kingdom of a

38:13

Piris in front of a round Albania.

38:15

That kind of area and it's king

38:17

is a guy called Paris Torture. Hope

38:20

he doesn't win a Pyrrhic victory. Some

38:22

of the at say Paris is. he's

38:24

very much an Alexander the Great wannabe,

38:26

right? He stuck in this kind of

38:28

mountainous sub Macedonian Kings of Leon and

38:30

he wants stoked for glory. And

38:33

he's a very, very proficient general.

38:35

He's been can swaggering round these

38:37

Mediterranean scoring all kinds of victories.

38:39

By. He does have links to the west

38:41

because he's married to the daughter of I

38:43

guess the Cleese who they are tyrants of

38:45

Syracuse who we talked about in the previous

38:48

episode. Just so when the invitation from the

38:50

Town Times com. Paris. Looked over

38:52

he thinks yeah, Southern Italy, Sicily

38:54

Scope here for glory. And

38:57

so he crosses the Adriatic with

38:59

an enormous army that seats is

39:01

the first time in Italian combat.

39:04

War. Elephants. Okay to stop so by

39:06

the elephants for second to i love

39:08

analysis on the rest is history. The

39:10

elephants he has presumably gods because as

39:13

king of Emperor S P and parts

39:15

of the kind of Macedonian Hellenistic world.

39:17

yeah he pursued his got those from

39:19

the silly kids from the Greek empire

39:21

and Asia. Yeah, guessing. yeah they've come

39:24

from India. Yeah, there's a great deep

39:26

water port on the Red Sea. Wire.

39:29

Fast ships come with elephants

39:31

and. Basically. You

39:34

can source elephants from that. or you

39:36

can source elephants from from the kings

39:38

in Syria who have access. Yeah, come

39:40

across the Land House. So yeah, this

39:42

is how you get elephants. or does

39:44

it take the kind of Allison's that

39:46

is now extinct that is in North

39:48

Africa says Smith Carthaginian. get their elephants

39:50

assess. Oh yeah, so elephants are available

39:52

if you want the bright. And.

39:54

why wouldn't you and paris does want the

39:56

guy right so because of course post is

39:58

a terrified of elephants cavalry,

40:01

charging along, and then you see an elephant and they

40:03

all go screaming off in reverse. And of course they

40:06

can go crashing into a line of infantry, stampede them

40:08

terrifying. The issue with elephants, Tom, I know we're not

40:10

the rest is military history, but I

40:12

believe the issue with elephants is that elephants

40:14

can easily be frightened and will stampede their

40:16

own side. That is constantly a risk. So

40:18

they can be a tremendous liability. They can

40:20

be, but if you're a top general like

40:23

Pyrrhus, you know how to control them. Yeah. And so

40:25

Pyrrhus in 280, he lands in Italy and he brings

40:27

a whole load of war elephants. He

40:29

brings his cavalry, Macedonian cavalry is

40:31

famous. And of course he brings

40:33

his phalanx, you know, enormously long

40:35

spears, the instrument of war that

40:37

has enabled Alexander to conquer the

40:40

Persian empire. Tremendous innovation. So the

40:42

Romans are now in

40:44

the big league. I mean, again, to pursue

40:46

the football analogy, this is the Champions League.

40:48

They are now facing

40:51

the most terrifying way of making

40:53

war that exists in

40:55

the Mediterranean. How are they going to do?

40:57

Well, they meet at a place called Heraklia,

41:00

the Romans and Pyrrhus' army, which is in

41:02

southern Italy, and the elephants

41:04

are brought out. The Roman horses

41:06

are horrified. They scarper. The Romans

41:09

lose, but it's a very

41:11

bloody victory. The Romans inflict a lot of

41:13

casualties on Pyrrhus. And so Pyrrhus is also

41:15

playing by the rules. He doesn't want to

41:17

conquer Rome and destroy it. He assumes that

41:19

having won his victory, the Romans will now

41:21

negotiate. And so he sends an embassy to

41:24

Rome and he offers, yeah, very

41:26

reasonable terms. So he says, you know, the

41:28

prisoners that I've taken, I'll help you with

41:30

the subjugation of the rest of Italy. All

41:32

you've got to do is

41:35

give immunity to Tarentum. And

41:37

the Senate is tempted to accept these

41:39

terms. I mean, they seem very good. But

41:42

then you have this terrifyingly craggy

41:44

old senator who is a Claudian,

41:47

Appius Claudius. And he

41:49

is the guy who builds the Appian Way,

41:51

the great road that runs from Rome down

41:53

to the heel of Italy, and

41:56

which is like a kind of a

41:58

chain that has been cast over the

42:00

world. over the mountains of Samnia, enabling

42:02

the Romans to strike where they want.

42:05

And he is blind, so he's called Caicus

42:07

the Blind. And he

42:09

stands up and he basically says, never surrender.

42:12

We are never going to negotiate with

42:14

an invader of Italy. And

42:16

he has this famous line, every

42:18

man is the architect of his

42:20

own destiny, with the implication that

42:22

every citizen has it within him

42:25

to be the architect of Rome's destiny.

42:28

And so the Romans carry on the

42:30

fight. The following year 279, there's

42:33

another battle, another victory for

42:35

Pyrrhus. But again,

42:37

his phalanx, his cavalry, his elephants

42:39

are very, very badly maimed. And

42:42

it's at this point that he makes the famous comment, another

42:45

victory like this, and it will be the ruin

42:47

of them. So this is Pyrrhic victory, exactly where

42:49

the phrase Pyrrhic victory come from. And

42:52

he decides if he had enough, he thinks, you

42:54

know, I want to keep fighting the Romans. I

42:56

won't have anybody left. And so

42:58

he goes off to Sicily to fight the Carthaginians.

43:01

He's invited there by the Sicilian Greeks.

43:03

They want another Greek to help them

43:05

have a crack at the Carthaginians, which

43:08

they're always doing. And Pyrrhys is keen

43:10

to install his grandson, who is Agathocles'

43:12

grandson as well, because Pyrrhys has married

43:14

Agathocles' daughter, become king of Syracuse. So

43:17

basically he's trying to establish his dynasty

43:19

in Syracuse. So he goes off and does

43:21

that. But Pyrrhys unfortunately behaves in

43:23

such a kind of arrogant manner that all

43:25

the Greeks get pissed off with him and

43:28

they switch sides and team up with the

43:30

Carthaginians. So Pyrrhys

43:32

and the Greeks have split up. So

43:34

Pyrrhys now finds himself fighting both the

43:36

Carthaginians and the Greeks. And he thinks,

43:38

you know, I've had enough of this. So he

43:41

heads back to Italy. But there he finds

43:43

that the Romans have built up their forces inevitably.

43:46

There's another battle. Again it's

43:48

indecisive. Again the Romans

43:50

inflict devastating casualties on Pyrrhys and

43:52

he decides that he's had enough. And

43:55

so he packs up and goes home. And

43:57

that basically is the last that Pyrrhys is engaged

43:59

in. Italy and in 272 he

44:02

goes off into Southern Greece into the

44:04

Peloponnese, he gets involved in a street

44:06

battle in Argos and he's fighting with

44:08

this guy and the guy's mother is

44:10

up on the roof, you know, sees

44:12

her beloved boy fighting Pyrrhus, reaches

44:15

for a roof tile, hurls it at

44:17

Pyrrhus, brains him and it kills him.

44:19

So that's the end of Pyrrhus. What

44:21

a depressing end for Pyrrhus. Very

44:24

sad. So meanwhile back in Italy,

44:26

the moment he goes the Romans

44:29

move into Tarentum, take it and

44:31

basically the conquest of Italy is

44:33

complete. Just one thing on Pyrrhus, all

44:36

that stuff like the Romans being invincible and brilliant

44:38

and stuff, I mean they didn't

44:40

be Pyrrhus. Pyrrhus won. No they didn't.

44:42

But Pyrrhus, yes, he does effectively win

44:44

three battles but he

44:47

doesn't win the war because the Romans keep coming

44:49

back and it's not that the

44:51

Romans expect to win every battle but

44:53

they expect to win every war. Right.

44:55

Because they're manpower, Tom. It doesn't matter

44:57

how many battles they lose, they will

44:59

always come back and this of

45:01

course will be a key theme in the wars

45:03

that Rome goes on to fight with the Carthaginians.

45:05

Right. You know, it's like the Hydra, you chop

45:08

a head off, another one. Yeah. Sprouts back up.

45:10

Yeah. But at this point, with the whole of

45:12

Italy successfully pacified, with Pyrrhus

45:14

seen off, conditions between

45:17

Rome and Carthage remain

45:19

stable. The Carthaginians are

45:21

not opposed to Rome conquering

45:23

Italy. In fact, 348, so this is

45:25

right when they're just about to embark

45:27

on their great series of conquests and

45:29

they've started fighting the Samnites. The Romans

45:32

win a particular battle over the Samnites

45:34

and the Carthaginians send them a tremendously

45:36

lavish golden crown which the Romans then

45:39

keep on the capital as a kind

45:41

of a memento. And there are definitely

45:43

Carthaginians in Rome at this point. Right.

45:45

So there's an entire area of Rome

45:47

that's called the Vicus Africa, the African

45:50

Quarter on the Esquiline Hill named after

45:52

the Carthaginians and the Latin

45:54

word for market which is macellum seems to

45:56

derive from the Phoenician and there are even

45:58

vague hints in later Roman writers that

46:00

there's a bottle which is

46:03

a kind of sacred stone erected in

46:05

the fruit market in Rome. So

46:07

there is a Carthaginian presence as per

46:10

the terms of the treaty. Carthaginian merchants

46:12

are moving freely around Rome and the

46:14

cities that are subordinate to Rome. And

46:17

just one last thing on Carthage. What have they

46:19

been doing all this time? So there's just been

46:21

presumably a succession of people called Mago and Hano

46:23

and stuff, just interchangeably kind

46:25

of making loads of money. They

46:28

have been fighting the Saracusans. Okay,

46:30

which we talked about in the previous episode.

46:32

In the wake of that, they've been licking

46:35

their wounds. They've been trying to rebuild their

46:37

forces, hire more mercenaries, build up their fleet.

46:39

And so this is why when Paris comes,

46:42

a Greek king, the Carthaginians

46:44

assume that Paris is the major enemy. And this

46:46

is why they're happy to be in alliance with

46:48

the Romans. They don't think of the Romans as

46:50

being a threat comparable to Paris, essentially

46:52

because the Carthaginians, like the Greeks and

46:54

Sicily, and like everybody in Italy, it

46:58

takes time for them to work out what they

47:00

are facing in Rome. There are

47:02

kind of rules of combat that everyone in the

47:04

Western Mediterranean has accepted. It can

47:06

be very brutal, cities can be destroyed or whatever. But

47:08

by and large, that doesn't happen. By

47:10

and large, it is like a kind of brutal form

47:13

of sport, that every year

47:15

you go out, you know, you have a

47:17

battle, you have a war, whatever, but then

47:19

you sign treaties. You're not going out there

47:21

to exercise total domination. Yeah. But

47:23

of course, this is what the Romans are about. But

47:26

the Carthaginians are not really, you know, they

47:28

haven't had their noses rubbed in that particular

47:30

fight yet. And so you

47:33

might think with the withdrawal of Paris

47:35

in Carthage, you think, well, great, you

47:37

know, we've seen off this kind of

47:39

Macedonian king, the Greeks in

47:41

Sicily are now allied with us, we're

47:43

allied with Rome, we have our fear

47:45

of influence in Western Sicily, everything's great.

47:48

But Paris had

47:51

recognized what was to come. Because

47:54

it is said that while he was in Sicily,

47:57

Just before he leaves to go back to Italy. He

48:00

looks around him. And he says.

48:03

What? A beautiful killing sales we're

48:05

leaving here in Sicily. For.

48:08

The Romans and the Carthaginian. And

48:10

he's not wrong. Dominic. Because. Within ten

48:13

years of his departure from Italy, Raymond.

48:15

Carthage will be. At

48:18

War. Oh my word. some. What a

48:20

cliffhanger. As Chris Morris would say, It's

48:22

was still on. Dislike: The Ancient

48:24

World Podcast to Evidence or Laurence

48:27

Olivier Ace The World Access your

48:29

to guide with you as Laurence

48:31

Olivier. Absolutely fascinating stuff, incredibly exciting.

48:33

Listen, I can't believe this. Anybody

48:35

who would happily waits for three

48:38

days to hear the final episode

48:40

of the series which is World

48:42

War between Rome and Carthage. And

48:44

if you're in that position where

48:46

you are going to have to

48:48

wait, you can. Let's listen to

48:51

it Right now is. Already have to

48:53

do is go to the rest is history.com

48:55

couple of clicks you'll be in. The rest

48:57

is History Club which is brilliant and then

48:59

you can listen to that episode. If not,

49:02

I'm afraid you'll have to wait several days

49:04

and who knows what can happen in the

49:06

intervening period. Said: don't take that risk, join

49:08

the club, this is the episode and then

49:10

join the throngs of people going through the

49:13

streets cheering Tom Holland's name. They've enjoyed it

49:15

so much on a map I'm sell the

49:17

by. The by.