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more at beyondpetfood.com I

1:54

have lived a long time and

1:57

I have seen a great deal. And

2:00

I have always had a reason for

2:02

everything I have done. Every

2:05

act of my life has

2:07

had an object in view, and

2:10

no man can say that I have

2:12

neglected facts or failed to

2:14

think. I

2:17

am one of the last chiefs of

2:19

the independent Sioux Nation, and

2:22

the place I hold among my people was

2:25

held by my ancestors before me.

2:29

If I had no place in the world, I

2:31

would not be here, and

2:33

the fact of my existence entitles

2:35

me to exercise any influence I

2:38

possess. I am satisfied

2:40

that I was brought into this life

2:42

for a purpose. Otherwise

2:45

why am I here? This

2:48

land belongs to us, for

2:50

the Great Spirit gave it to us when

2:52

He put us here. We

2:54

were free to come and go and to

2:57

live in our own way. But

2:59

white men who belong to another

3:01

land have come upon us and

3:04

are forcing us to live according to their

3:06

ideas. That is an

3:08

injustice. We have never dreamed

3:10

of making white men live as we live. What

3:13

would you do if your home was attacked? You

3:16

would stand up like a brave

3:18

man and defend it. That

3:22

is our story. I

3:25

have spoken. So

3:28

that Dominic was Sitting Bull again.

3:30

Great to have him back on

3:32

the show. Who introduced the last

3:34

episode. I think that my resonant

3:36

bull-like voice very

3:38

powerfully conveyed. You do think that, do you?

3:41

Yes. That's nice. That

3:43

you think it. I felt there was a little bit of

3:45

Gordon Brown in there.

3:47

He also is a kind

3:49

of slightly ponderous but impressive

3:51

person. Anyway,

3:54

so that was Sitting Bull and he

3:56

was giving an interview to a

3:58

Canadian journalist called... James Creelman

4:00

in 1882, which is

4:02

six years after the Little Bighorn.

4:04

Yes. And is that when he is

4:07

still in Canada? Because he goes to Canada after. Yes, he

4:09

does go to Canada. He was being held in a place

4:11

called Fort Randall at the time. And

4:13

what hangs over that whole interview is, I mean,

4:16

this is just Creelman's account of it, right? Of

4:18

course. Yeah. So

4:20

is that actually what Sitting Bull said? Is Creelman

4:22

embellishing it for his readers who expect Sitting Bull

4:24

to say slightly ponderous, semi-spiritual

4:26

things of that kind? Or did Sitting

4:29

Bull say it? And is Sitting Bull

4:31

consciously playing a part? Because, of

4:33

course, I mean, he literally goes on to play a part,

4:35

doesn't he? Yeah. Because he

4:37

appears in Buffalo Bill's touring show.

4:39

Well, Dominic, I mean, we know he didn't

4:42

actually say that because he didn't speak much

4:44

English. Right. So apparently, the

4:46

phrases of English that he spoke were,

4:48

hello, you bet, and cede beau.

4:51

Cede beau. Sitting Bull. Oh,

4:53

right. Okay. And

4:55

how makti, which apparently was either how

4:57

much or how are you? Or can I borrow a

4:59

match? Hold on. No very different things.

5:01

Can I borrow a match? And how are you? Well,

5:04

there was disagreement among people who knew him. No

5:06

phrase adequately expresses both of those thoughts, I think.

5:08

So I'd say. And also, he was very keen

5:11

on shaking hands. Was he? That's

5:13

nice. So we've never done a

5:15

history of the handshake. Of course, Donald Trump

5:17

and Emmanuel Macron had that incredibly long handshake, didn't they, where

5:19

neither of them would let go. So Sitting Bull might have

5:21

enjoyed that. I think he probably would. I mean, I'm not

5:24

sure whether he went around kind of crunching the hands of

5:26

people. Right. But he might have done because

5:28

the thing about Sitting Bull, he's simultaneously

5:30

kind of very charming.

5:34

People really like him. He's great fun, isn't he? He's

5:36

good humid. But I mean, he's

5:39

also simultaneously terrifying. Yes, he is. I agree.

5:42

I mean, he fights and fights and he

5:44

does the whole killing and mutilating stuff as

5:46

well. Yeah. Personally, Tom, I

5:48

find him more congenial than Crazy Horse. But you

5:50

don't really know about Crazy Horse. Well,

5:52

I never like a loner. I don't

5:54

like an eccentric. And Crazy Horse, you know, he

5:56

didn't turn up to meetings, went off

5:58

on his own, didn't wear enough clothes. he

6:01

saw himself as a little bit different. Whereas Sitting Bull is

6:03

more conventional, I would say. He

6:05

conforms to stereotype more than Crazy Horse does, and I

6:07

like that in a man. I don't think he's conforming

6:09

to stereotype. I think he's upholding the customs of his

6:12

people. Yeah, well that's what I

6:14

like. I like a traditionist.

6:16

Fair enough. So, we should

6:18

perhaps get back to the story. So, I mean,

6:20

just to remind listeners, we've got

6:22

this extra episode because, Dominic, this has

6:24

never happened before. Oh, never? It's

6:27

called Dan Carlin, and what was

6:29

meant to be four episodes is spiraling out of

6:31

control. There's a spectrum, isn't there? You've got

6:33

Dan Carlin at one end, and actually another Dan

6:35

at the other. Dan Snow. And we're somewhere, we've

6:38

moved from the snow. Well, we're definitely moving from

6:40

Dan Snow to Dan Carlin. We are. Listen,

6:42

that's too much inside baseball. We should talk about

6:44

history. So, last time, we

6:47

talked, didn't we, about Native Americans generally,

6:49

about how this is a world of

6:51

shifting alliances, of people constantly moving around,

6:54

of war, and it's also a changing

6:56

one. So, it's not a timeless traditional

6:59

world, but it's a culture transformed by the horse

7:01

and by guns and so on and so forth.

7:04

We talked about the Plains Indians, in particular the

7:06

Dakota, who'd moved from Minnesota, sort

7:08

of southwest towards Montana, Wyoming, and so on,

7:11

and moved from woodland people to kind of Plains

7:13

people, and how they are

7:15

feeling under tremendous pressure from mass

7:17

migration, from the migration of American

7:19

settlers, westwards towards Oregon, California, and

7:21

so on, and the trails. And so that is

7:24

what Sitting Bull is talking about. Exactly. Exactly. And

7:26

railroads, which mean the death of the Bison culture

7:28

on which they've come to rely. And

7:30

so last time we said, this comes to

7:32

a bit of a peak in the mid-1860s. The

7:35

Lakota think they've done brilliantly because they've finally

7:37

seen off the crows and taken the Powder River

7:39

Country, which they're very keen on. Scalped

7:42

them with their long, big,

7:44

bare-greased, pomaded hair. Exactly. The

7:46

crows... Yes. There's another theme

7:48

in this about hair products

7:50

as well as handshaking. Yeah.

7:53

Which I wasn't anticipating when we began it,

7:55

I have to say. No. So

7:57

The crows have let themselves down with their pomades. I

8:00

think so. I approve. I think they said so

8:02

much time. I met some. And not

8:04

enough a military tactics and that's what's cost.

8:06

Know because they got wiped out by disease

8:08

so as to take an assistant smith indicators

8:10

it with cause he didn't because democrats are

8:12

more nomadic and they've been inoculated by miss

8:15

Miss. Them so. Spread out

8:17

a good old S he said big

8:19

Man in the Lakota Wells. although not

8:21

year, they're not a top down kind

8:23

of policy And so he was outraged

8:26

by the boozman sale. Thomas is your

8:28

favorite phrase, your network a sign that

8:30

on you. Yeah, it's a top trail.

8:32

So Red Cloud is the political i'm

8:34

lead and actually Crazy Horse is the

8:36

great minutes, he tactician. And it's Crazy

8:39

Horse who taught about last time. Who.

8:42

Inspires. The most celebrated

8:44

own didn't. It's hilarious. of all

8:46

of their Lakota. Attacks on

8:48

American Army which is the so called

8:51

Specimen Massacre of The Settlement Fight. While

8:53

I mean it depends which side you're

8:55

on right on your perspective course because

8:57

this your literati sets great Victory A

9:00

Push you. It's an issue of Americans

9:02

he said semester exactly So. Crazy.

9:04

Horse does this thing which they have tried to the location.

9:07

They normally make a mess of it but in this case

9:09

it really works. They. Basically. In.

9:11

Twice a group of American soldiers that

9:14

bias tap Captain William settlement as about

9:16

eighty of them out of fought tiny.

9:19

They. Decoys amounts. And then

9:21

they ambushed them. And.

9:23

There. Are eighty one of the Americans and

9:25

every single one of them is kills. They

9:27

are horrendous. Li kind of neat elated afterwards

9:29

or so it seems to the people who

9:32

find about as close as we taught by

9:34

last time. Yeah the Lakota Rodman says this

9:36

means they might be able to get us

9:38

in the afterlife. Will they will? I mean

9:40

they'll be in the Us nice but that

9:42

be kind of shuffling around with any eyes.

9:44

and yes with a test scores on rocks

9:46

and their arms holding off and things precisely

9:48

says kind of the living dead that be

9:50

much less effective. But don't you know of

9:52

course what this reminds. me as someone

9:54

who's read british imperial history and in

9:56

this is kind of very familiar episode

9:59

from the annals of Kipling or

10:01

something, isn't it? Yeah. Kind of

10:03

shades of the Northwest Frontier or Isandwana or...

10:05

Oh, totally it is. Totally it is. People

10:08

being lured out of forts. And the

10:10

notion that this is not a kind

10:12

of imperial project is clearly not true.

10:14

I mean, it's very imperial. It's very,

10:16

very like British military expeditions in the

10:18

19th century. Of course it is, yes.

10:20

It's like something that you would see

10:22

in Afghanistan or the Northwest Frontier or

10:24

something. Yeah. And all of the

10:26

baggage that goes along with it. So on the one hand,

10:28

the idea of the kind of the

10:30

noble savage and on the other hand,

10:32

the idea of kind of our plucky

10:34

boys who are only trying to export

10:37

civilization and our kind of liberal norms.

10:39

Yeah. Better found themselves in

10:41

a world they don't understand. I mean,

10:43

all of that is exactly the same.

10:45

Heart of Darkness. Heart of Darkness, exactly.

10:47

So the Fetterman Massacre is a shocking

10:49

event. You know, it's just every year

10:51

after the Civil War. East

10:53

Coast opinion is horrified

10:56

by it. But the interesting

10:58

thing is that unlike Little

11:00

Bighorn, it doesn't provoke massive

11:02

American reprisals. It has

11:04

two or three interesting repercussions. Number one,

11:06

everybody knows that Crazy Horse is responsible

11:08

and it is this fight, this ambush

11:11

that enshrines him in the American

11:14

imagination as the supreme warlord. Right.

11:17

So one of the reasons surely why

11:19

it doesn't impact on American

11:22

public consciousness in the way that Bighorn

11:24

does is that the defeated person is

11:26

not as glamorous and exciting and charismatic

11:29

as Custer. Yeah, Captain Fetterman. Yeah. But

11:31

it's interesting that the Lakota commander, Crazy

11:33

Horse, does have that element of charisma.

11:36

Yes. And so he

11:38

does imprint himself on the popular imagination. Yeah,

11:40

he does. So there does seem to be

11:42

a kind of quite a strong element that

11:45

these engagements, you know, their profile

11:47

depends on the stature of the

11:49

commanders. I think that's fair. And I

11:51

think it depends when they happen as well. This is happening in the

11:53

middle of US is in the throes

11:55

of reconstruction. So All

11:58

the attention is on the old Confederacy. What's happening

12:00

there? But in eighteen seventy six a little

12:02

big Horn is the nation's birthday. And.

12:05

They want to. Nice birthday present that feeds

12:07

the Lakota remind that says that the other

12:09

way around it becomes such a resident stolen

12:11

as you say, it's customers already a celebrity.

12:13

Secondly, I think a really important thing. Up

12:16

to this point, although the Lakota Sioux did

12:18

have a kind of mystique with the headdresses

12:20

and all that stuff. They. Weren't

12:22

seen I think as

12:25

uniquely. Terrifying.

12:28

Dangerous, A formidable or formidable and

12:30

so I think it elevates them

12:32

as one has to insistence of

12:34

the most powerful, an intransigent enemy

12:36

on the planes as. Scientists.

12:39

General Sherman rights Ulysses as grumps

12:41

a few weeks I think, or

12:43

few days often festival Mask and

12:45

he says we must act with

12:47

vindictive earnestness against the see, even

12:49

their extermination men, women, and children.

12:51

In other words, Paypal assisting for.

12:54

Revenge. What I mean That's literally

12:56

a genocidal mission. Statements? Yes, genocidal I'm not

12:58

sure. Language of extermination we can perhaps talk

13:01

about that's a little bit later. How much

13:03

they really mean? That's how much they're just

13:05

trying around the word. Well, I mean, cinnamon

13:08

is a great one for vindictive earnestness. His

13:10

knee? Yes. But they really interesting thing is

13:12

a massive marathon. Reaction to this is to

13:14

close the Bozeman Trail and to close the

13:17

forts. To say fine, You know you when.

13:20

Will. Go back homes now. That might seem an

13:22

extraordinary thing today. The. Reason they do

13:24

it of course is partly because. The. Army

13:26

which spin cut the whole time cannot do

13:28

two things at once. It cannot. Enforce

13:31

order in the former Confederate South. In the

13:33

former slaves south you're against pyramids, she violence

13:35

and all these kinds of things and that

13:37

is of see the priority and that is

13:39

the privacy and I can't fight the Lakota

13:41

the same time they say saw the Lakota

13:43

this less put a lid on this place

13:45

trail and all that and secondly at an

13:47

instant thing is that American attitudes to the.

13:50

Natives. Are always much more complicated

13:52

nuance than we think. so. the

13:54

trend now is to say well

13:56

the whole congress to the west

13:58

with genocidal projects everybody. To the

14:00

Indians, he or they may racist or

14:02

this stuff. And of course there's an

14:04

element of truth in that. But for

14:06

example, in the aftermath of the Fetterman

14:08

fight, Congress has an investigation to Sen.

14:10

James do little and he says was

14:12

a big problem here is not the

14:15

Lakota. it's a what he calls the

14:17

questions of lawless whites, the steady and

14:19

resist list. So Custer. I mean custards.

14:21

Very very aware of the fact that

14:23

there is a loss of public simpson

14:25

United States for the Lakota. Yeah, and

14:27

he kind of arms east coast liberals.

14:29

Yeah, it's kind. Of that talk. yeah

14:31

you know they didn't know what they're

14:33

talking about. There's a distance they haven't

14:35

seen people with their eyeballs, gaps out

14:37

s or anything. I think that's and

14:39

snap political arguments. There. Are always

14:41

some people on the east coast to say

14:44

this. whole businesses fc terrible. The polar cota

14:46

you know? I mean even at this point

14:48

that I think there are people who say.

14:50

The. Earth is weeping. Let us commune

14:52

with the spirits And last us said

14:55

this is why. The. Palaeontologists. I'm

14:57

it's just they tell us your mouse

14:59

who is with some cope with their

15:01

the to rival palaeontologists you are picking

15:04

up dinosaurs sending them back attack each

15:06

other. Yeah I mean he is unbelievably

15:08

sympathetic. To. The Lakota. He feels

15:10

deep deep, same as an American for what

15:12

is happening. yeah I'm I suppose. but this

15:14

he is going out. there are some on

15:17

his. not a prospector, not a soldier, not

15:19

someone who is trying to take things because

15:21

this case that mind if he picks up

15:23

a diplodocus and whatever. Yeah and he's another.

15:26

Said he becomes a big past as I

15:28

have read clouds in Washington, a big friend

15:30

and some the instant thing is isn't that

15:32

your parallel with sort of the European empires

15:34

yet again. yeah the heyday. The British empire.

15:37

There are people who go to India or.

15:39

Whatever. and that accused of going native

15:41

of championing the locals over their own

15:43

country, you become very conflicted about the

15:45

Imperial put it's mints the same thing

15:47

actually. Prison Andrew Johnson who is always

15:49

seen as one of the worst presidents

15:51

american history because of his road and

15:53

in reconstructions he's seen as this is

15:55

a terrible racists. He sets up a

15:57

piece commission and when that reports they

15:59

to Sixty eight, it's actually really worth

16:01

dwelling on this. The conclusion of the

16:03

Peace Mission is and I quote if

16:05

the lands of the White man, a

16:07

taken civilization justifies him and resisting the

16:09

Aveda civilization does more than this. A

16:11

brand, some a coward and a slave

16:13

that he submits to the wrong. But.

16:15

It's the savage resists civilization with the

16:18

ten commandments, and one hand than the

16:20

sword and the other demands his immediate

16:22

extermination. Yeah, and that the audience of

16:25

Best Mission is not. Will. Therefore,

16:27

we should. Just let them

16:29

get on with the and not expand. They

16:31

do believe and manifest destiny is all of

16:34

these people do. But they say listen. We.

16:36

Should be more straits with the Plains Indians.

16:38

We should actually listen to them. We should

16:40

be more sensitive. You know all of this

16:43

sort of stuff? That's enough new perspective of

16:45

Twenty Twenty Four. You. Sort

16:47

of think mother's a lot of truth in

16:49

that isn't that? I mean, they're never gonna

16:51

stop doing. There's no conceivable alternative reality in

16:53

which the rod railroads across the west wealth.

16:55

I mean, the other thing of course that

16:57

is happening at this time and and Masses

16:59

represents a figure of it because he's a

17:02

great parts and of dow. And in is

17:04

that nations of evolution Yeah, and racial hierarchies

17:06

and survivor of the Fittest is really starting

17:08

to kick in at this point. And

17:10

I think it's possible for scientifically

17:13

literate sick as back in Washington

17:15

to hold to country opinions of

17:17

ahead of the same time. Yeah,

17:20

Firstly, That pity. For.

17:23

The. Locator in the Plains Indians more generally kind

17:26

of admiration for them, a feeling of regret,

17:28

maybe even a feeling of same and what

17:30

is happening but also they can kind of

17:32

wash their hands of it and say well

17:34

you know this is what. Policies.

17:36

All about yeah, this is the way of

17:39

the world. The strong replace the wheat. And

17:41

actually Tom I seen as dead. right? Absolutely

17:43

right. I think that kind of. Social

17:46

Darwinism. Has permeated into mainstream

17:48

culture and mainstream political opinion. I

17:50

mean, you could also almost argue that

17:52

darwinism takes off as fast as

17:54

it does, because it's answering a need.

17:56

Yeah, that's the point. You know,

17:58

people raised in. Christian in or sure

18:01

American contacts and kind of democratic nations

18:03

have sat or whatever they need a

18:05

justification for what like and to do

18:07

any waves has basically to grab stuff

18:09

problems, grab resources from people who will

18:11

weaken them and again and again occurrences

18:13

in this story say things like that.

18:16

So General Sherman the guy who according

18:18

to talk about extermination the in his

18:20

he despises a lot of the white

18:22

settlers in the minors and so on

18:24

and again and again he will say

18:26

they're behaving very badly. You know if

18:28

I were at Cota. But

18:30

then in the next breath as custard

18:33

does he will then say however it

18:35

is the law of Nature is the

18:37

law of life that civilization. Must.

18:39

Proceed And steamroller.

18:42

You. Know this antiquated backwards mean they will

18:45

say this again and again. So I

18:47

think your apps a rather than darwinist

18:49

mentality. Is that the sort of

18:51

sensors American attitudes? Gemini and you ate

18:53

the absence of a do is they

18:55

signed a treaty. With. The lactose with

18:57

red cloud was two thirds of them to

18:59

to Isn't It about. Guess.

19:01

We'll get to this say they give

19:04

them a huge reservation the Great Sioux

19:06

Reservation and this will include pretty much

19:08

all of modern day South Dakota west

19:11

of the Missouri. American. A

19:13

simplistic said move reflects that not all stats

19:15

co success at current. he belongs to the

19:17

Lakota said they will know how that ended

19:19

up and the promises this will be yours

19:22

will have agencies that will give you goods

19:24

and stuff. But. Slowly,

19:26

Confusingly, you can roam a little bit with

19:28

your hunting you to roam south as long

19:31

as there are abundant buffalo to justify the

19:33

chase. you can roam and. The. Big

19:35

huge wilderness to the west

19:38

of the reservation, which is

19:40

say Wyoming and Montana that

19:42

is designated very sort of

19:44

confusingly as unseeded suit territory.

19:47

So. It's. Kind of

19:49

yours. But white. People

19:51

can settle as they get your permission

19:53

and the army can go in and

19:55

do things again. Sell Ascii first says

19:57

it's deliberately a very gray area. But

20:00

actually, They signed a treaty and a

20:03

first run plowed his Red Cross. He says you're

20:05

not obeying the treaty, have seen a subset to

20:07

Washington? He does yeah and everybody's very impressed with

20:09

them. They say put a tremendous fellow he is

20:11

to. This is when all the photos taken as

20:13

of it's him and top hats and things Yes!

20:15

And he actually goes to meet you to see

20:17

this. Grunts. And he says

20:20

you know, honoring the cc you? yup keeping

20:22

settlers out of for the black hills and

20:24

the big or mountains and grants as she

20:26

says to him. Feminists you

20:28

know you're obese in oppressive Blake we

20:30

haven't delivered and so are into the

20:32

goes back and he says well print.

20:34

I've gone to see the Great Father

20:37

in Washington and all is good and

20:39

actually most of the Lakota. Follow.

20:41

His it's he's a war hero Red Cloud

20:43

So people say you know what, He knows

20:46

what is talking about. Actually we have to

20:48

accommodate reality. Will. Go on the

20:50

reservation. Will. Get all the food

20:52

and supplies. He manages to persuade most

20:54

of the Lakota and a large number

20:56

of Cyan an hour apart the usual

20:58

of allies. Let's go on to this

21:00

in South Dakota and you know it's

21:02

not ideal. But. There's no point

21:04

fighting reality. However, as you say, tom.

21:07

There are people who don't follow him. And

21:10

they are particular group said the hump proposed

21:12

to some zoc the black feed the to

21:14

temples the many counties some of the it

21:16

lol as under crazy horse crazy horse and

21:19

no way am i going into a reservation

21:21

that's not my thing at all cause cause

21:23

he hates. Any sense of being

21:25

confined doesn't he? Crazy Horse is the

21:27

man He walks alone, does his wildest

21:29

the wind get a world of the

21:32

when some very nice and the guy

21:34

who really says. No Way. Is.

21:36

The man you so beautifully their voice to

21:38

the beginning of this upset in the last

21:41

ups. And that is sitting Bull. So I

21:43

guess for us the idea of a sitting

21:45

bull it implies kind of stationary quality, doesn't

21:47

it? Yeah, it does. But a bow presumably

21:49

is referring to the buffalo. Yes, and the

21:51

buffalo is the most sacred animal on the

21:54

planes. and it's a creature of immense power.

21:56

It is money would not want face a

21:58

buffalo and he's a very and. Personally

22:00

I think is a very impressive person

22:02

sitting bull so. As. Far as

22:05

we know, he's probably born in eighty thirty one.

22:07

Is. I'm papa. I love that name.

22:10

Is fast fast as it gets. Kind

22:12

of ninety seventy two virgins yeah punk

22:14

papa, Hunk mama hum kids baba at

22:16

it. You know you're getting into the

22:18

world of the tell it's hope is

22:20

that we need some now. Think he

22:22

barber. Oh okay yeah to mobile Papa

22:24

it's kind of guy in the wobbly

22:26

thing yeah of the movement's you could

22:28

have been a moment. Are you a

22:30

listen. Listen, this is disrespectful to Pump

22:32

Pump as it is it. Isis is

22:34

his say his father's called Returns again

22:36

good name. Of name but apparently

22:38

this is because his father went out to

22:41

fight some people once and they were going

22:43

home with his father. said i'm gonna for

22:45

moisture Love This is more than lasts and

22:47

people caught him a chance again he I

22:49

could get him off the battlefield and his

22:51

mother is called her holy door. And

22:54

returns again is quite an impressive guy.

22:57

He's kind ahead man of a loads

22:59

which means he's got a group is

23:01

not cease but he's got a group

23:03

of in a separate dozens by be

23:05

even hundred people extended family. So he

23:07

some the rising century yes yes he's

23:09

a prosperous yeoman saw myself as as

23:12

what he is. He's the middling so

23:14

is kind of sand brits person site

23:16

thanks His mid also right I can.

23:19

Say. He's that is a

23:21

healer. And like a the chef

23:23

for for it's it's very brave Ah he

23:25

has powerful dreams and visions as I they

23:27

are and I think we found the person

23:30

that his are you based resembles he said

23:32

you did a terrible thing near that acres

23:34

when I read out that the ship's the

23:36

cats and benzene about how behind his chubby

23:39

valuable as he was at his sinister my

23:41

family and co say say you said ass

23:43

and that I are so shocked by that

23:45

the less that say I went to my

23:47

wife and I read that passes I started

23:50

reading that passage see say I hadn't. Got

23:52

the point where I say it's a some Allen

23:54

said that reminded him of for of a A

23:56

and before I could set as she said it's

23:58

read recently by yourself. Okay,

24:01

so you find yourself basing Captain Pentane

24:03

and been sitting bull's I think that

24:05

nothing to be ashamed of about that

24:08

City Bulls father. sinuous father. I'm no,

24:10

I think well as well. So City

24:12

Missouri ritual name sonos. His reason may.

24:16

I know it says till something or know

24:18

that he later was called slow. Slow.

24:21

That's right yeah but before that his

24:23

could jumping Bacha. oh I like that.

24:25

Simply Batches gray name something better is

24:27

his official name but people nickname him

24:29

slow because pound eats was are two

24:31

possible reasons. One is that his leslie

24:33

quite slow but the other is is

24:35

more plausible is that he was thinks

24:37

before talking. And he's very

24:39

deliberate and considered so again like crazy

24:42

horse getting of his holster. Aim is

24:44

done exactly no interest in is it

24:46

the sitting Bull. Name.

24:49

That come since the question when his

24:52

father has a chat with a buffalo

24:54

it's a buffalo to tells us about

24:56

this So returns again and some other

24:59

men are sitting around a campfire and

25:01

this buffalo arrives and starts such as.

25:04

Bellowing. Up them grunting a bellowing

25:06

and kind of the bus like on

25:08

a wobbles from side to side and

25:10

I read that returned against companies were

25:13

or struck but return again. Understood what

25:15

the buffalo saying suspect was set up

25:17

a such as i've never done a

25:20

buffalo i don't know what to buffalo

25:22

voice sounds like oh. Yeah.

25:24

With deep it be very deep I can

25:26

do buffalo. carried the buffalo to have some

25:28

for name's save the for name's. Buffalo.

25:31

Both sits down. Jumping.

25:33

Both. Both. Sensors cow

25:35

and one both. Say. Through

25:37

this way to some degree some actually I

25:39

thought it would be more. I'm in a

25:41

Buffalo Ny Salmon okay is now appearing in

25:44

Buffalo Bills so. We

25:46

know he's Emily's has a nice any

25:48

case often eats his grass and he

25:50

does say says he's for name's Beth

25:52

liberals is than jumping bobble stance of

25:54

town one booth and for is a

25:56

sacred number by the way to the

25:58

Dakota and. return again is

26:00

very, very impressed with this. And he thinks they're

26:02

a gift to him, these names. He goes back

26:05

to the village and he says, I'm changing my

26:07

name. I'm going to call myself. Basically, Buffalo Bull

26:09

sits down, Sitting Bull. That's

26:11

what he calls himself. So he's

26:14

called that, but his son isn't. So

26:17

the man we think of Sitting Bull is called

26:19

Slow. He has a

26:21

chat to an eagle around this point,

26:23

Tom, right? He's around 30. The

26:26

eagle sings to him and sings,

26:28

my father gave me this nation to care

26:30

for. I'm trying to fulfill my duty. Do

26:32

we know what the song was like? Was it a good

26:34

song? I don't want to hear you doing an eagle. Okay.

26:36

I mean, that could be for the bonus. That

26:39

rest is history club members, subscribers. I'm amazed that

26:41

this hasn't been done as a. A big

26:44

concept album, wouldn't it be a proper concept album from the 70s?

26:46

Sacred Spirit could do it. Definitely. So

26:49

the eagle sings to him and says, you have

26:51

a special responsibility or this kind of thing. And

26:53

actually by this point, he's not very slow. He's

26:56

really good at archery and hunting and all that

26:58

kind of thing. And then when he's 14 years

27:00

old, he has the great moment in his

27:03

life when he counts his first coup. Yeah.

27:05

So he touches an enemy with a stick

27:08

and they've gone out on a hunting expedition

27:10

because he hasn't ever got any war

27:13

honors and he's only 14. He's

27:15

naked except for some beads and a sort

27:17

of little loin cloth. And

27:20

he doesn't carry a weapon, but he knocks

27:22

a crow off his horse with this stick.

27:24

It's kind of very Homeric, isn't it? It's

27:26

very Homeric, kind of the great hero. When

27:29

you read this stuff, it's, you know, much

27:31

as we are sort of enjoying doing the

27:33

voice of a buffalo and imagining eagles singing,

27:36

it's no different to telling the stories of the

27:38

Greek heroes. No. I mean, that's the sort of

27:40

the imaginative world, I think. Yeah. Anyway, he

27:42

knocks this bloke off his horse with a

27:44

stick. His friends then rush up and they

27:46

scalp the guy and kill him. And this

27:49

is a tremendous moment for slow. He

27:51

goes back home. He has a great parade.

27:53

His body is painted black and he has

27:56

a single evil feather in his hair to

27:58

mark his coup and his father. sort

28:00

of stands up in front of everybody and he

28:02

says, great moment for my son, and in

28:05

honor of this moment, I will change

28:07

my name again, and I will now

28:09

be jumping bull, and

28:12

my son, you, are the

28:15

new sitting bull. And this

28:17

seems to be a thing then, doesn't it? So

28:19

Crazy Horse's dad hands on his name, and

28:22

the guy who's gonna become sitting bull has handed on his name. Has

28:24

handed on his name, and I think we should take a break at

28:26

that time, because it's such an exciting and moving moment, and

28:29

we'll return afterwards to talk about how sitting

28:31

bull, how his career unfolds.

28:33

We haven't really talked about religion at all. I

28:36

know you like to talk about religion,

28:38

so we'll talk about sun dancing. But

28:40

Dominic, you will also know that I

28:42

am suspicious of the use of the

28:44

word religion. Of course, what a schoolboy

28:46

error. In this context, because they don't

28:48

have a notion of religion as something

28:50

separate. Yeah. And this is the crucial

28:52

point. Why shouldn't Eagles

28:54

talk? Why shouldn't bulls talk?

28:56

Okay, agreed. Because the wonder and

28:59

power of the supernatural is manifest in everything.

29:01

I was trying to get us to the

29:03

break, but I failed because I made it.

29:05

I made a schoolboy error. You did, you walked

29:07

into that one. I walked

29:10

right into it. Like Custer charging

29:12

the little bighorn. Custer,

29:14

the nominal topic of this series, will return at

29:16

the very end of this episode. So that's something

29:19

to look forward to. We'll see you after the

29:21

break. This episode is

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brought to you by Beyond Natural Pet

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30:28

Comrades, whoever runs away, he is

30:31

a woman, they say. Therefore,

30:33

through many trials, my

30:36

life is short. So

30:38

that, Dominic, was a song

30:40

sung by Sitting Bull as

30:43

he charged a Crow chieftain in 1856. Apparently

30:47

he had a very high resonant singing

30:50

voice like mine. Yeah, it could not

30:52

have been less like what I imagine.

30:54

Should I do it again? No, for

30:56

God's sake, don't

30:58

do it again. No, he's 25. That's not the voice

31:01

of a 24-year-old man, Tom. And this

31:03

is a highly significant moment in Sitting Bull's career, isn't

31:05

it? Because we were

31:07

talking about the Homeric quality of

31:09

his life before the break. And

31:12

this is kind of Achilles against

31:14

Hector. It is. It's a standoff

31:16

between two mighty warriors on rival

31:18

sides. And everybody else has stood

31:21

back to watch it. The

31:23

Crow drops to one knee and he's got a

31:25

rifle. He fires. The

31:27

bullet goes through the shield that

31:29

Sitting Bull is holding and

31:31

goes into his left foot rather oddly. It must have been

31:33

quite a bad shot, I think. And it

31:35

goes in at his toe and goes out his heel. Yeah. So

31:38

again, kind of very Achilles. And

31:40

now Sitting Bull turns, aims

31:42

his rifle, fires. The

31:45

Crow chief tumbles. Sitting Bull takes out

31:47

his knife. Obviously, he's got a bullet

31:49

through his foot, so he's got to

31:51

limp. He takes his

31:53

knife, raises it over

31:55

his fallen opponent, plunges it

31:58

into the heart. Yeah, thrilling stuff.

32:01

It is exciting stuff. Makes Sitting Bull a

32:03

great hero, gets all kinds of war on

32:05

us. And actually, the song, the

32:07

idea of him singing a song, so that reminds me

32:10

of the Norse sagas or something. Yeah, kind

32:12

of scaldic verse. They are, aren't they? They're like

32:14

he raised his axe, smoked the guy's head, and

32:16

he sang as he did so. Yeah. So

32:19

they're Viking chieftains who are famous for

32:21

their ability to do this and to

32:23

sing and celebrate their own victories. Yeah.

32:25

And this is clearly what Sitting Bull is doing. Yeah. I

32:28

mean, this is the weird thing about

32:30

this whole story, that this world that

32:32

feels very reminiscent of Homeric epic or

32:35

Norse epic is taking place

32:37

in the same arena as there

32:39

are railroads and the Astor family and Custer

32:42

and all of these things that are from

32:44

the world of modernity. I mean, that's what

32:46

makes the story so rich and so fascinating,

32:49

isn't it? Yeah. And I

32:51

think also the fact that Custer is the kind

32:53

of intersection point between those two worlds. Yeah.

32:56

And he's cast as a kind of knight errant

32:58

from medieval chivalry and Sitting Bull

33:01

is cast as a Homeric or Norse

33:03

warrior. And so this is part

33:06

of the dynamic of the story that makes it

33:08

so interesting to people back in the 19th century.

33:10

But also let's be honest. To us. Yes,

33:13

of course. Absolutely. Yeah, I

33:15

completely agree. Anyway, Sitting Bull by the 1860s,

33:17

by his sort of 20s, 30s, he's

33:19

a big man. He

33:23

is a very celebrated warrior. He has a great

33:26

buffalo kind of horned

33:30

headdress with feathers to

33:32

show that he has won all these victories and

33:34

killed all these chiefs and things. We

33:37

talked before, I think we were talking about the dog

33:40

soldiers and the Cheyenne, we were talking about how they

33:42

had these kind of warrior fraternities. He's

33:44

in loads of them and he's an officer of

33:46

loads of these fraternities, which is a real achievement.

33:50

And actually, although they don't really have a

33:52

kind of formal political structure,

33:54

they have an informal one. He's very high

33:56

in it. And it's prestige based, isn't it?

33:58

It is prestige based. But the biggest

34:00

thing about him that makes him different and gives

34:02

him this fascination is his holiness. It's

34:04

the sense that he has a link

34:07

to what you undoubtedly call the dimension

34:09

of the supernatural. One of my favorite

34:11

phrases people will know. It is. So

34:14

he's danced the Sundance. Oh,

34:17

yeah. I mean, this must be something that

34:19

you must love all this. I really do.

34:21

Because you basically love torture and

34:23

religion. I know religion is

34:25

not the right word. Yeah. This combines both

34:28

your interests. Yes. So the Sundance is kind

34:30

of a big thing. It provides an opportunity

34:32

to directly see

34:34

into the dimension of supernatural, to

34:37

be given visions of the future, to

34:39

be given advice for what you should

34:41

do that derives from the gods, from

34:43

the spirits that lie beyond the realm

34:45

of the human. And the big god

34:47

is Wackentanker. That's right, isn't it? He

34:49

is the kind of great father. The

34:51

great mystery. The great mystery, yeah. The

34:54

great spirit, the great mystery, yeah. Dominant

34:56

you as the master of tongues, presumably

34:58

you would be alert to that way

35:00

in which. Very alert to the nuances.

35:02

Yeah. The other sense of mystery, but

35:04

also spirit is an important part

35:06

of what's being tapped into. I think

35:09

it is. And I think there's sort

35:11

of less anthropomorphic than the

35:13

kind of mythology that we associate with Greece

35:15

or the one day. You know, it's not all sort of

35:18

people stealing each other's wives and wooden

35:21

horses or all of that kind of. It's

35:24

more mysterious than that, isn't it? The world

35:26

of Lakota faith. Well, it's shamanistic, I guess,

35:28

would be the word that anthropologists would use.

35:30

Yes. I mean, they're probably

35:32

anthropologists, they're now suspicious of the word

35:35

shamanistic. Yeah. But the idea that you

35:37

put yourself through excruciating austerities and physical

35:39

pain and open yourself up

35:41

to visions that you wouldn't otherwise have. So

35:43

we were talking about medicine yesterday. Yeah. That

35:45

you either have medicine or you don't. And

35:48

Sitting Bull definitely does. And there seem to

35:50

be kind of two ways that are associated

35:52

with the Sundance. So one which

35:55

Sitting Bull does shortly before the Battle

35:57

of the Little Bighorn is that... you

36:00

give flesh. The sitting bull will

36:03

have someone take out 50 kind of

36:05

gobbits of flesh from each of his

36:07

arms. Yeah, they're often described as

36:09

the size of the head of a match. They're

36:11

quite small, but somebody will basically go

36:13

at your arm with an awl and

36:15

they will rip out 50 bits of flesh as

36:18

an offering to the gods. But the

36:20

Sundance itself, it sounds to

36:22

me as an absolute wuss, even

36:24

worse. Much worse. Yeah.

36:27

So you set up a buffalo

36:29

head in a kind of

36:31

circle and then you have a medicine

36:34

pole which is fixed into the ground.

36:37

And what is it? You have a

36:39

kind of you have a pole, don't you? So

36:41

yeah, you have this big pole, actually medicine pole.

36:43

It is called a medicine pole, but as we

36:46

said last time, the language of medicine is very

36:48

unhealthy. Yeah, it's not a kind of thing. You

36:50

get to the NHS. So this huge pole, everyone

36:53

assembles. There's a big feast, you know, it's like

36:55

on a religious feast festival. Lots of people have

36:57

assembled. They've been drinking and they've been dancing and

36:59

they've been having fun and stuff. But now it's

37:01

very solemn and they watch while

37:03

you step forward and whoever else is going

37:05

to do the Sundance and

37:07

a holy man, basically he

37:09

pierces your skin around your nipples.

37:12

It goes under the muscles, doesn't it? And

37:15

he puts a sort of skewer

37:17

through it, a wooden skewer, and

37:19

then he ties leather thongs to

37:22

this skewer. And those

37:24

are then tied to a rope,

37:26

a lariat, I believe is the

37:28

technical word. Right.

37:30

And the rope is tied to the pole

37:32

and it's tightened so that

37:34

you have to stand on your your feet.

37:37

It's so horrible. And

37:39

I mean, that's the basic package, but you

37:42

can have worse ones, which

37:44

will obviously raise your prestige because

37:46

they're much more painful. So you

37:49

might have sticks that get pushed through

37:51

the cheeks of the

37:53

dancer just beneath the eyes. Or you

37:55

might have them through the back muscles,

37:57

which are obviously very dense. So

38:00

I mean that would be completely

38:02

excruciating. So essentially you

38:04

get kind of hooked up by these and

38:07

you then get given a whistle and

38:09

you have to blow on the whistle and

38:11

then you have to dance. And they will be

38:14

drumming and stuff, won't they, while you're dancing? Yeah,

38:16

but you have to dance for hours and hours

38:18

and hours and you have to lift your face

38:20

to the sun. And while

38:22

you're doing it, you're kind of giving away

38:24

various stuff. So you might give away a

38:26

weapon or a pony or

38:28

something like that. And again, those

38:31

who are going to the limits, those who've

38:33

got the sticks through their muscles

38:35

or whatever, they will give

38:37

everything away. So they're even warriors who give

38:39

away their sisters, which must have been a

38:41

bit grim for the sister, I guess. Very

38:43

grim for the sister, yeah. And the thing

38:45

is that if you fail

38:47

the test, if you

38:50

don't measure up, if you think you can do it

38:52

and it proves you can't, you faint, or you just

38:54

say, oh God, this hurts too much, I'm sticking. Then

38:58

you lose your status as a warrior, you're

39:00

given a woman's dress and you are set

39:02

to picking berries or doing the

39:04

washing up or whatever. To be honest, I

39:07

mean, I can see why you might choose that voluntarily. You

39:10

know, it's a good way to get into the berry picking

39:12

business. I mean, it sounds

39:14

horrendous. So you basically, the point of the dance

39:16

is to try and break free from the hooks,

39:18

isn't it? I think it's to have a vision.

39:21

Yeah, oh, of course, yeah. You'll have the vision

39:23

through pain, that's the point. Correct. And if you

39:25

just faint and you don't have the vision, that's

39:27

no good. Yeah, no good. I

39:29

mean, it is weird. On the other hand, I suppose,

39:31

I think it's really worth stressing that to

39:33

us in 2024 as kind of people

39:35

living in a fairly secular country, it seems

39:38

extremely unsettling. Is there any

39:40

more weird and unsettling than so many other

39:42

religious rituals? I mean, think about the self-mortification

39:44

in Christianity. Or people going off into the

39:46

desert and taking drugs and having

39:48

visions that way. People want vision, it looks

39:50

like people taking acid. Yeah, absolutely. So

39:52

Sitting Bull does this, doesn't he? And nobody

39:55

doubts that he is a very holy man,

39:58

that he has enormous endurance. and

40:00

he will show off all of the scars,

40:02

his scars on his chest, his scars on

40:04

his back, he has scars on his arms,

40:07

that are testament to his

40:10

courage in various sun dances

40:12

and similar kind of religious rituals. And he's a

40:14

large man, isn't he? Yeah, he's a big man.

40:16

So there's quite a lot of him to take

40:19

bits of flesh out of, to gouge

40:21

out. Yes, because he becomes, obviously later

40:23

on, after the Battle of Little Bighorn,

40:25

because he becomes such a celebrity, I

40:27

mean, there's no other word for it,

40:29

he's an international celebrity. Well, so as

40:31

well as the handshaking after Little Bighorn,

40:34

he is also shown how to write

40:36

his name. And his autograph

40:38

apparently was the most prized after the President's.

40:40

I mean, I would much rather have Sitting

40:43

Bull's autograph than some of the Presidents of the 1880s

40:46

who nobody remembers. Yeah, of course. I mean,

40:48

who wants Chester Arthur's autograph when you could

40:50

have Sitting Bull's autograph? Anyway,

40:53

so later on, when he's a celebrity, all these stories

40:55

are told about him and nobody ever undermines

40:58

him or questions his holiness. So people

41:00

say, listen, this is a chap,

41:02

he's always communing with badgers, doing

41:04

all this stuff, getting information from

41:06

the from the spirit world, bulls,

41:08

eagles. Yeah, he can see into

41:10

the future. And his predictions

41:12

are generally right. He will say we

41:15

will have meat in the spring, you know,

41:17

all this kind of stuff. And this ability to

41:19

foretell the future will be crucial for

41:22

the build up to the Battle of Little Bighorn.

41:24

So just keep that in mind. It will indeed.

41:26

It will indeed. But also the interesting thing about

41:28

him, I think the likable thing Tom, is

41:31

that he's not a sort

41:33

of a stereotypical caricatured, sort

41:35

of very forbidding holy man, is he? He's

41:38

a laugh. No, he's fun. He's good

41:40

fun. He loves singing, as

41:42

you have beautifully demonstrated. Yeah, he's

41:44

very good mimic. Yeah, he likes

41:46

jokes. Very good actor. He's

41:49

like me, a very good actor, and very affectionate

41:51

as well to people he loves. Yeah, he's a

41:54

nice person. He's a nice person also.

41:56

He struggles with his mental health, Tom. Did

41:58

you see this? He suffers from bouncers. I

42:01

didn't know that. So it's very relatable

42:03

in that sense. Anyway,

42:05

the one thing that perhaps is, well,

42:07

I don't know what listeners will think, whether it's relatable

42:09

or not. After Red Cloud

42:11

has done this deal and said, fine,

42:14

let's yield to reality. We'll go on

42:16

this big reservation in South Dakota. Sitting

42:19

Bull, the one thing that really marks

42:21

him out, he says, no way.

42:24

Absolutely no way. There will be, I

42:26

will never, ever compromise with

42:29

Washington with the Americans. And he

42:32

says of Red Cloud, he said, Red Cloud

42:34

saw too much. The white

42:36

people must have put bad medicine over Red

42:38

Cloud's eyes to make him see everything and

42:40

anything that they pleased. This is after Red

42:42

Cloud's trip to Washington. And

42:44

when people say to him, listen, if we

42:46

go on the reservation, sure, it won't be as exciting

42:49

and it won't be, you know, it won't be shooting

42:51

crows through the heart or all that stuff

42:53

that was great fun before. However,

42:56

you know, we'll have food and we'll

42:58

have somewhere to live and we'll be

43:00

safe. He says, look at

43:02

me, see if I am poor or my people

43:04

either. The whites may get me at last, as

43:06

you say, but I will have good times till

43:08

then. You are fools to make yourself slaves to

43:11

a piece of fat bacon, some hard tack and

43:13

a little sugar and coffee. And

43:15

of course, the thing is, there are loads

43:17

of people who would agree with that course,

43:19

particularly younger warriors who want to have, they

43:22

want to make a name for themselves. But also, as you made

43:24

the point last time, didn't you? It's exhilarating.

43:26

I mean, it must be terrifying at times,

43:28

but it's exciting. I assume that you don't

43:30

need to divide it into saying, well, it's

43:32

simultaneously fun and noble

43:35

because to be noble is to be fun, I

43:38

guess. Yeah, I guess that's right. I think that's right.

43:40

And I think there are also a lot of people

43:42

who say, do you know what we could we could

43:44

kind of do both? Yeah, I mean, this undoubtedly happens.

43:46

There are a lot of people who say, in

43:49

the winter, I'll go to the reservation, I'll hang around, I'll

43:51

have that coffee and make small talk with

43:53

the federal agents. And then when

43:55

summer comes, I'm out of here. I'm off. Well, again, as

43:57

we'll see at the Battle of Little Bighorn, a lot of

43:59

reservations. the cotter are there. Yeah,

44:02

so there's a not a neat sort

44:04

of very stark divide between the reservation

44:06

and non-reservation Indians. But the

44:08

man who says, I'm not having

44:10

this, I'm not compromising, I'm staying

44:12

free, obviously comes to be a

44:14

figure of tremendous charisma and significance.

44:16

Yes. So the fact that Sitting

44:18

Bull has done that is

44:20

what enables him to serve as the

44:23

kind of the focus of loyalty, admiration,

44:25

devotion for so many of the

44:27

younger warriors. Yeah. So by the end of

44:29

the 1860s, he has now

44:31

achieved a position that really nobody has

44:34

ever achieved before. He's almost a sort

44:36

of paramount chief. And

44:38

they have a big meeting in 1869 of the

44:41

Lakota who are dead against

44:43

the reservation. And at

44:45

that, his uncle,

44:48

who's got four horns, says

44:50

to him, feel bravery on the battlefields.

44:52

And as the greatest warrior of our bands, we've

44:54

elected you as our war chief as leader of

44:56

the Sioux Nation. When you tell us to fight,

44:58

we shall fight. When you tell us to make

45:01

peace, we shall make peace.

45:03

So in other words, he's been cast in

45:05

this new kind of role, which is

45:07

again, another sign of how it's not actually a

45:09

timeless culture. No, it's

45:11

evolving in response to the pressures on

45:14

it. Exactly. So exactly. So

45:16

in the late 1860s, early 1870s, Sitting Bull

45:20

is sending people on raids and things,

45:22

but they're all quite small scale. However,

45:25

all the time, the railroad

45:27

is coming closer. And one railroad

45:30

in particular, which is the Northern

45:32

Pacific and the Northern Pacific has

45:34

basically decided on its route. And

45:36

that route leads right through the

45:39

Lakota lands. In 1872, they

45:41

sent out a survey party and Sitting

45:44

Bull and Crazy Horse, this Crazy Horse is

45:46

also holding out, of course, they

45:48

got together to see it off.

45:50

And then a year later, in

45:52

the summer of 1873, Sitting Bull, it's been a

45:57

quiet summer and they're kind of minding their own business kind

45:59

of. You know they got

46:01

hunting he's talking to eagles and doing his

46:03

thing and then he hears news that

46:06

a new. Survey expedition with

46:08

the us army escort is

46:10

advancing on the yellowstone river.

46:13

And the head of this expedition tom who

46:15

is it don't know who is it none

46:17

other than our

46:19

old friend george armstrong.

46:23

Costa. And

46:25

on that bombshell yeah we should

46:28

draw a close over the story and we'll return

46:30

next time to find out what happens at the

46:32

yellowstone between costa. I'm

46:35

sitting bull and will get into the

46:37

story of the black hills expedition later

46:39

yeah. That's a terrible story

46:41

now if you want to hear the

46:44

rest of this thrilling series early before

46:46

everybody else. And you know

46:48

what to do you just need to go to

46:50

the rest is history.com sign up

46:53

to join our warrior band. You

46:56

get all kinds of thrilling benefits but most importantly

46:58

you will get those episodes before your neighbors and

47:00

so you can load it over them because you

47:02

will know what happened to george armstrong costa. But

47:05

they won't i mean amazing we got four episodes

47:07

to go yeah we did the whole of the

47:10

reformation in five episodes i'm so bitter about

47:12

this so bitter so many

47:14

complaints to hear about that. I

47:16

was only allowed for a pirate exactly this is

47:18

the thing the complaint is really that there are

47:20

too many on the lakota your complaint is that

47:22

you won't give it enough on byron. I

47:25

stuck to our agreement and you're just. Spraying

47:28

notes everywhere you go no roaming

47:31

like a lakota chieftain no it's a

47:33

gross calumny because when i send you

47:35

the notes thinking you're suggesting to cut

47:37

which i would be delighted to hear.

47:40

What actually happened i just shovel a whole load more

47:42

in myself is that you shovel a whole load of

47:44

new notes in the only thing you wanted to cut

47:46

and you rang me up and a great education. Yeah.

47:53

How does father's beard i just felt

47:55

like an extraneous detail extraneous detail

47:57

a custom. had

48:00

a beard. But that was really important. People don't

48:02

want to get back and listen to episode one,

48:04

there's a lot of Custard's father beard related badinage

48:06

going on and this is the subtext for it.

48:08

Yeah. Anyway, listen, we will

48:10

be back. We still have four episodes

48:12

to go, the build up to the

48:14

Battle of the Little Bighorn, the battle

48:17

itself, and then the aftermath and the

48:19

tragic, terrible story of the Ghost Answers.

48:21

So that is all to come. Wonderful.

48:23

See you next time. Bye-bye.