0:00

Thank you for listening to

0:02

the Rest is History. For

0:04

bonus episodes, early access, ad-free

0:06

listening, and access to our

0:09

chat community, sign up at

0:11

restishistorypod.com. That's restishistorypod.com. Hey

0:14

there! Did you know Kroger always gives you

0:17

savings and rewards on top of our lower

0:19

than low prices? And when you download the

0:21

Kroger app, you'll enjoy over $500 in

0:23

savings every week with digital coupons. And don't

0:25

forget fuel points to help you save up

0:28

to $1 per gallon at the

0:30

pump. Want to save even more? With

0:32

a boost membership, you'll get double fuel points

0:34

and free delivery. So shop and save big

0:36

at Kroger today! Kroger, fresh

0:38

for everyone. Savings may vary by

0:41

state. Restrictions apply. See site for details.

0:46

Before we get back to the

0:48

show, Dominic, you and I are

0:51

relentless perfectionists, are we not? And

0:53

that's why we would like your help in

0:56

trying to make the Rest is History

0:58

better. Even better, Tom. Even better. So

1:00

what we're doing is we are launching

1:02

a colossal survey of our listeners so

1:04

that you can tell us what you

1:06

think of the show. Would you

1:08

like to hear more of Tom's impressions? Would

1:11

you like to hear more episodes about history's

1:13

greatest monkeys? Would you, and I imagine you

1:16

would, would you like to hear more episodes

1:18

about British parliamentary politics in the middle of

1:20

the 1970s? And you know what

1:22

your answer to that should be. So please go

1:25

to therestishistory.com/survey and let us

1:27

know. And we would also

1:29

like to know more about

1:31

you, where you're from, how

1:33

you found us, all that

1:36

kind of stuff. So basically

1:38

everything about you, please. Yeah.

1:40

But listen, the survey is actually completely

1:42

anonymous. We love making the Rest is

1:45

History. We want to keep doing it

1:47

for a long time. And we want

1:49

to make sure that we are giving

1:51

you the listeners exactly what,

1:53

well, almost exactly what you want. Almost. We're not

1:55

going to give you completely what you want, but

1:57

we'll give you some of what you want. That

1:59

is The Right. So if

2:01

you could spare just five

2:03

minutes of your time and

2:06

I promise it won't take

2:08

any longer than that, just

2:10

head to the rest is

2:12

history.com/survey that is. The rest

2:14

is history.com/ Survey. Thank.

2:17

You very much. Sixty.

2:29

Days or Papacy had given Martin

2:32

Luther to recant or else be

2:34

damned as a heretic. Now, on

2:36

the tenth of December, that time

2:39

was up that morning. at nine

2:41

o'clock Luther walked through one of

2:43

the three town gates. To.

2:46

Wear a Korean Pits lay.

2:49

A large crowd had gathered there. One.

2:51

Of leave his colleagues from the

2:54

university. It's a theologian name to

2:56

johan Agricola. Lit a

2:58

fire. The spot was wear

3:00

the clothes of those who had died and

3:02

the nearby hospital were burned. But.

3:04

Agricola rather than rags

3:07

used books as few.

3:10

All that morning he and Luther

3:12

had been ransacked libraries for collections

3:14

of canon law. Had

3:16

the two men been able to find a volume

3:18

of Aquinas, they would have been that as well.

3:21

That. Kindling know proved sufficient. The

3:23

fire began to blaze, a

3:25

curricula continue to feed books

3:28

into the flames. Than.

3:30

Luther stepped out from the crowd.

3:33

He. Was trembling. He held

3:35

up the people decree that has condemned

3:37

his teachings. Because.

3:39

You have confounded the truth of

3:41

God. He. Said in a

3:43

ringing voice Today the Lord

3:46

confounds you into the fire

3:48

with you, See. Dropped

3:50

the decree into the flames, the

3:52

apartment block and and curled and

3:55

son to smoke as Luther turned

3:57

and walked back through the city.

4:00

Eight. Ashes. Scattered

4:02

and swelled. On. The

4:04

winter breeze. So. That

4:06

was Dan Brown that was so

4:09

marlins, so rude and Dominion which

4:11

is your magisterial book about the

4:13

history of Christianity in house has

4:15

seeped the Western world and the

4:18

entire world. Some. Things

4:20

fat sites and this is an amazing

4:22

set piece moment. so we are now

4:24

it in episode three. Of

4:26

the series, about. The human

4:28

being. Who in the last five

4:30

or six hundred years? Has

4:32

arguably shaped. The. Western

4:35

World. As much as any

4:37

other may more than any other Martin Luther.

4:40

He is burning a people bulls

4:42

a paypal decree that was targeted

4:44

at him. So this is open

4:46

war with the Papacy. Tom. It

4:49

is so as a suspect Sergei

4:51

Dominee rise up a Lot and

4:54

the Pope had issued it on

4:56

the fifteenth of June Fifteen Twenty

4:58

and had given Lisa sixty days

5:01

to recant. Will be Excommunicated and

5:03

the sixty Days or up and

5:05

leases response to this deadline is

5:07

as written in that. My

5:10

stereo pray feet of of us and

5:13

that the bull is specifically censoring forty

5:15

one propositions that Lisa has put forward.

5:17

And one of those propositions Dominic is

5:19

that term is wrong to bed heretic.

5:22

And. Say that. Danger of death. Yep,

5:24

The fact that Lisa by. Directly.

5:27

Taking on the Papacy like this in

5:29

and I mean it's an exceedingly dangerous

5:32

thing to do, This is life and

5:34

death. Yes, and this is happening In

5:36

Vet Birds moved the capital of cedric

5:39

the electoral Saxony. Depth. And

5:41

looser is a professor at the

5:43

university. say Frederick has every they

5:45

can kind of backing him and

5:47

three years have passed since that

5:49

great and celebrated act of defiance

5:51

that we ended up said to

5:53

with hammering that theses or not

5:55

on the walls of the church

5:57

or churches. Yes, onto the dose.

6:00

The Church. And in those three

6:02

years, Lisa. Has precipitated

6:04

a crisis on a scale

6:06

that. Last in Christendom

6:08

has never witnessed before, at least

6:10

not since eleventh century breaking and

6:12

the features of the crisis? That

6:14

kind of threefold. really? so. It's

6:17

about the church as centrally asserting it's

6:19

authority. The medieval church. The Raymond says

6:22

whatever would call it. So back insisting

6:24

seventeen. The. Whole. Reason

6:26

why these indulgences are being issued

6:28

is because the church is manifesting.

6:30

It's assumption that Christians can earn

6:32

their way out of Purgatory yeah,

6:35

through them or I will, through

6:37

a whole has to did work

6:39

pilgrimages. Whatever this idea that there

6:41

is a kind of spiritual capital

6:43

the christians can on to get

6:45

themselves out of Purgatory and get

6:47

to happen sooner. and of course

6:49

insisting twenty. Be. Assumption is that

6:51

the church has the right to eradicate heresy.

6:53

This is why the papers issued the both

6:55

trust. Quick question Tom. Yeah. Most

6:58

people who think this why is it called

7:00

a bull school both of which is of

7:03

Paypal both as there are very frosted. But

7:05

a bull? It's a bola. It's a kind

7:07

of a sale that stamps the the text

7:09

of it. Okay. Fine. I've

7:11

always wondered and to in a and the

7:14

test meeting this for long time say one

7:16

of the phase is that is used in

7:18

this Papal bull with toxic Lisa is the

7:20

same phrase that people who listen tarp said

7:22

on the opposite and Crusades may remember Yep

7:24

the phrase about Little Foxes seeking to destroy

7:26

the vineyard exactly the same phrase and some

7:28

just to remind people. Lisa. Hammered

7:31

up these theses or nailed them up or

7:33

didn't depending on your view. Because.

7:35

He was outraged because a blight was

7:37

going round a kind of carnivalesque monks.

7:40

The I was going round selling indulgences

7:42

to raise money for the rebuilding of

7:44

St. Peter's Basilica and Raymond due to

7:46

solas was disgraceful. Yeah, that turns out

7:48

to be even worse because at Sea

7:51

Legs as the money's going to a

7:53

bank douthat as given money to or

7:55

an underrated spaceship he wants to become

7:57

Archbishop says or fabulously corrupt. Death said

7:59

that one aspect of it at the

8:02

church. basically trying to put the lid

8:04

on this kind of bubbling rebellion. Yeah,

8:06

and the second thread of course is

8:08

Lisa defying really fundamental teachings of the

8:10

church. So it's Fifteen seventeen. When.

8:13

He's attacking indulgences. He is also

8:15

attacking the entire dogma that sinners

8:17

can basically on their way out

8:19

of Purgatory. That sinners have agency

8:21

getting rid of that penalty for

8:23

their own sins. Yeah, and that

8:25

then lead someones question, the leading

8:27

role played by the Papacy and

8:29

indeed actually the entire clergy. So

8:31

he's starting to move towards position

8:33

that ability has no particular status

8:35

and so much of this comes

8:37

from Leeds Said saying he's been

8:39

a professor of Bibles, Cs and

8:41

the University in Wittenberg. And so much

8:43

of this is him saying at to no one

8:45

none of this is in the bible and if

8:48

everything's meant come from the bible this is or

8:50

just toss that has been dreamed up subsequently. Yes,

8:52

and so it's partly from his reading the bible

8:54

and it's partly from his talking on a thread

8:56

on the whole carpet falls to pieces. Yes sir

8:58

He question. A fundamental dogma. At

9:00

then you start to question the role of

9:02

the papacy. Then he starts question the role

9:04

of the clergy and. Essentially.

9:06

Laser is coming to have much more democratic

9:09

understanding of what to this be christian one

9:11

in which the division between the clergy and

9:13

the laity is being a raise. They view

9:15

the he says every true christian where the

9:17

living or dead has apart and all the

9:19

blessings of Christ and the church. Is he

9:22

thinking he's getting back to the early Christians

9:24

Yes by they actually puzzles gonna christians Yeah

9:26

And so he starting to construct and understanding

9:28

of christian history which is radically opposed to

9:30

the traditional one. So he is essentially saying

9:32

that you have the Early Church and then

9:34

it all goes wrong. Yeah and. He's

9:37

moving towards the position in which the

9:39

Papacy as the whore of Babylon as

9:41

described in the Book of Revelation and

9:43

therefore in a thousand years and more

9:45

it's been corrupting and polluting the pier

9:47

teachings of Christ which is obscene. Very

9:49

radical. Refis: I don't get our with

9:51

the Pope. Look as

9:54

good as well as we see busy. The

9:56

issues is both. But. The

9:58

third aspect of what is. It is

10:00

a crisis is that Lisa is

10:02

an absolute master of self promotion.

10:05

And either. This is really unexpected. I

10:07

mean he's a professor in an upscale

10:09

university? by he just kind of light,

10:11

so touched paper. And. His.

10:15

Mastery of particularly of printing, which we

10:17

talked about in the previous upset. I

10:19

mean, printing has been around for about

10:21

a century, but he turns out to

10:23

be absolutely suited to a kind of

10:25

social media revolution. I mean

10:27

so am I right? regret Historian of

10:29

Protestantism he says he turns out to

10:32

have a kind of roar Trump He

10:34

and brilliance German language polemic German Trump

10:36

and I think but in a people

10:38

have been buying. Printed.

10:40

Matter. But. Lisa makes it

10:42

exciting and so they get into the habit

10:45

of buying it and perhaps kind of reading

10:47

it out to people who can't read and

10:49

so on. and so it's loose. A really

10:51

huge generates the market for buying printed matter

10:54

in a way that no one had done

10:56

previously. And you know your trump he analogy.

10:58

This a kind of popular sites

11:00

looters rhetoric is my his brilliance.

11:02

It's yeah, describing things and very

11:05

aggressive, scatological sometimes funny yeah roar

11:07

kind of a c terms in

11:09

a way that may be such

11:11

you know the theologians can do

11:13

so he can reach people who

11:15

other people can't reach. Yes,

11:17

absolutely. And the other thing that he does

11:19

is that he's very very good at staging

11:22

a public event. So the burning of the

11:24

Bowl in Fifteen twenty it's a deliberate a

11:26

dramatic saying death This is not what heretic

11:28

still heretic see what condemned kind of fear

11:30

they hide they don't public that hits despite

11:33

the Pope's to that would be bad but

11:35

Lisa can do it with as he has.

11:37

Cedric is kind of god in his back

11:39

there but in east staging a kind of

11:42

festival of defiance and in the wake of

11:44

the burning of the Ball. He

11:46

has got all his students behind him

11:48

so the students are rallying to him.

11:50

Soaps: The day after the burning of

11:52

the bull infected both students build an

11:54

enormous flights and they they kind of

11:56

festoon it with parodies of Papal bull

11:58

and degrees and so on and they

12:01

drive it round the town and then

12:03

they burned the whole lot. And

12:05

one of them is dressed up as

12:07

a Pope in a cleaner. The paypal

12:09

tiara and he then tosses is t

12:11

aren't the fire So this is a

12:13

kind of great sniffles of defiance and

12:15

it's fun. Okay, so. Why? People

12:17

doing that because what least he was

12:19

saying is very scandalous. So. There. Are

12:21

two possibilities as either the students. Kind.

12:24

Of a converted to leave this way

12:27

of thinking. Maybe because he's such a

12:29

brilliant teacher, or maybe because there was

12:31

always a latent audience for that message.

12:33

Or they just doing it because it's

12:35

fun. I. Think both. Okay,

12:37

and I think that I mean, I

12:39

guess we're so proud to not thinking

12:41

that statement. Some Christian doctrine are exciting.

12:44

Yeah, I mean it's not the kind

12:46

of thing that that ensues is people

12:48

by law. it's today. But back then

12:50

this is the most thrilling thing you

12:52

can do now. And I mean you

12:55

just have to look at the sense

12:57

of excitement that powers. I dunno the

12:59

pushing off doctrine sitar. a sense since

13:01

two conservatives today say on social media.

13:03

Yeah, of course. I. Mean people love

13:05

it. They do. And likewise, conservatives quite

13:08

enjoy. Kind of punching bag. Exactly. So

13:10

I was thinking about. I was thinking

13:12

about twenty twenty. The certain people like

13:14

attacking statues and stuff often. The destitute

13:17

Freud? Yes, exactly. Some people have a

13:19

because they really believe in the cause

13:21

somebody's brother is this. Alas, they want

13:23

to get out the carnivalesque side of

13:25

protests, intoxication of it. Yeah, and I

13:28

think that that is exactly right because

13:30

in the long run, statues will be

13:32

toppled, items will be dabbled in due

13:34

course. And for reasons that are

13:37

exactly analogous to the toppling of

13:39

in his thirties of slavers or

13:41

whatever that they seem to be

13:43

sinful and a public display of

13:45

you know your godliness. Is.

13:47

As exciting in the twenty first entry as

13:49

it was in the six at did. Yeah,

13:51

so it all goes back to Lisa. Basically

13:53

Okay, so. Today I think we should

13:55

look at how we get from. Lisa

13:57

banging up the theses, if that's what.

14:00

Yeah. To. Him being excommunicated. Okay and

14:02

what happens in the wake of the

14:05

Ninety Five theses getting up is that

14:07

he has some printed in German as

14:09

well as Latin and these they start

14:11

to hit the books tools in in

14:13

a that he arabs fifteen eighteen and

14:16

they are. Produced. By presses

14:18

across the entire empire, So.

14:20

The whole of what is now

14:23

Germany and indeed Switzerland and in

14:25

what would be the Netherlands as

14:27

well. Yeah, and because the Cc

14:29

saw a sharp that understandable they're

14:31

often quite, We people can understand

14:33

them. And. They. Kind

14:35

of really enjoy reading us, but the

14:38

Catechism a Free saw the made almost

14:40

kind of the shiver of blasphemy about

14:42

them. And to remind people an important

14:44

point, the Empire as a very strange

14:47

fragmented patchwork said the imperial authority to

14:49

deal with this necessarily. Is. Limited

14:51

and depends upon local rulers doesn't

14:53

and that will be really important

14:55

and Lisa story. right? Any

14:57

particular, the Emperor is quite ill. And

15:00

that means very likely that's going to

15:02

be an Imperial lesson. Very. Soon.

15:04

And that's because it's an enormous power

15:07

to Frederick loses protector is one of

15:09

eighty seven Alexis exactly. But even say

15:11

the church has no option but to

15:14

respond to Lisa Salads in. This is

15:16

partly because it seems that the sale

15:18

of indulgences really starts to fall off

15:21

in the wake of leases attack. But

15:23

it's also because Lisa has sent a

15:25

copy to Albrecht, the Archbishop of Mates

15:28

who is the guy basically of problem

15:30

yeah, extraordinary. The census The very person

15:32

B S say slow someone. Talking you

15:34

into a social media thing, exposing your

15:36

something right cf and so outbreak that

15:38

sense it to Rome to get a

15:40

kind of rule agonizing that and that

15:42

the center of things and. The.

15:45

Tradition is that the Pope. Doesn't.

15:47

Recognize it as it is a crisis

15:49

at all. He just thinks it's a

15:51

late a monk squabbling and it's kind

15:53

of seen as a yam. The lordly

15:55

tone. Of. A politician

15:57

and twenty ten turning his nose up at.

16:00

Right? Say it doesn't matter is unimportant.

16:02

Nothing on this matters. Yeah. Meanwhile,

16:05

back in Germany, they definitely have sense

16:07

of crisis. Oh, the Dominicans gives cats

16:09

so the guy has been smoking. The

16:11

indulgence is an honorary doctorate. Say that

16:13

he can take on Luther as an

16:15

equal because Coast Lisa has a doctorate,

16:17

he's a doctor and dumped Tetsu is

16:19

boasting that within three weeks of his

16:21

getting his doctorate, he will have links

16:23

that in the flames. And this they

16:25

questioned. Luther is in danger. But.

16:28

Because he has the backing of Frederick.

16:30

Basically he's safe. And. He.

16:33

Also has the backing off. In

16:35

a we talked about the students, the

16:37

students already rally behind him. They get

16:40

hold of test souls repudiation of Lutheran.

16:42

Burn It! So this is happening very

16:44

very early on and it's interesting that

16:47

book burning will be a feature of

16:49

the reformation actually begins with the Reformers.

16:51

It's not. The Papacy that is

16:53

the first Burn books know his instinct

16:55

and a since thing that a students

16:57

burning books. I'm a window into the

16:59

Nazi series and we talked about how

17:01

Nazi book burnings a driven by students

17:03

and their lectures not by people yeah

17:05

against the scenes wishes well as again

17:07

I mean I think that the you

17:09

just have to look at the world

17:11

today to realize that students quite enjoy.

17:13

Yeah if not burning books and having

17:15

them bad in fact yesterday date there

17:17

is a kind of email with excitement

17:20

to that they're tearing down the traditional

17:22

structures and. So. On. And he

17:24

was has the backing of growing numbers

17:26

of the faculty and vet and but

17:28

so too particular will play key roles

17:30

in his story. That one is the

17:32

professor of Theology. he's also the Chancellor

17:34

of the university. He's a guy called

17:36

Andrus from House That? yeah. And he

17:38

had actually given Lisa his doctorate, even

17:40

though he's at least three years younger

17:42

than Lisa. And as a much younger

17:44

Scala who's the professor of Greek Philip

17:46

Milbank Fum. he's only twenty one. Sick

17:48

like Enoch Powell is lying about. This

17:50

is beat like out about the are

17:52

you Gonna Do Him. In your buy

17:54

me a Maxims Now I'm not, I'm

17:56

not heed. Renamed himself he did. His

17:58

name is actually Spots. That which means

18:00

blast Earth and Black Earth has been translated

18:03

into Greek. Yeah and this is. This is

18:05

very much the kind of shape but that

18:07

professes at very of Wittenberg like to get

18:09

up to to that kind of the day

18:12

press. I've noticed that a terrible affectation save

18:14

lives that does it as well for us.

18:16

So leases name is that see Luder right?

18:19

But he he thinks this isn't good enough

18:21

so he calls himself a loose areas which

18:23

Greek means the fried one Ah come on

18:25

and he then makes more accessible is Lisa

18:28

I think. Bless him out Some very. Much

18:30

so loose are also is a kind

18:32

of it's a classicists joke right? Great

18:34

banter, gray banter, back lizards. Making serious

18:37

point because he said his freed the

18:39

fried one. Say what exactly has he

18:41

been freed from So he thinks presumably

18:43

has been free from. Superstition.

18:46

Obscurantism era. The.

18:49

Darkness of Not Knowing the Love of

18:51

God is that It basically. Yes,

18:54

So. He's get summoned to attempt

18:56

to meeting of the Augustinians. He's in

18:58

August, in in monk, in April fifteen

19:00

eighteen and held in Heidelberg. So.

19:03

Is quite long way. Again we see

19:05

his mastery of publicity. He walks less

19:08

noise, very safe in a that that's

19:10

really during attention to himself and he's

19:12

treated as an absolute celebrity everywhere he

19:14

goes. He's kind of tear than he

19:16

gets the Heidelberg him that the local

19:19

prince so's off in a his chapel

19:21

in his car soul and invites Lisa

19:23

to died with him. There's a tremendous

19:25

said some as for slight Jordan Peterson.

19:28

Side. Solace yes a little bit I

19:31

think the celebrity professor yeah who is

19:33

said the unsaleable and who is suddenly

19:35

you remember how people river first reported

19:37

when Jordan pizza, Mr. Rallies and stuff

19:39

people say it's amazing the somebody his

19:42

base he talked about. what is it

19:44

some soon Lobsters young in philosophy and

19:46

stuff and you Indian philosophy is inspiring

19:48

young people. Here. Would remarkable thing

19:51

and it's the same exactly if you think

19:53

that he is saying things that in universities

19:55

for a long time has been on say

19:57

apple. Luther. Is doing something similar?

20:00

The Heidelberg. So he is not

20:02

directly attacking the foundations of the

20:04

theology that has prevailed in the

20:06

last in west for centuries and

20:08

centuries. So. As

20:10

opposed to. The. Idea

20:12

that reason. As

20:14

mediated through. Aristotle enables you to understand

20:16

God. Lisa says that reason is actually

20:19

a whole by it's He says that

20:21

philosophy is a delusion. That the

20:23

only true Christian is a fool. He.

20:25

Says out front. I believe it is impossible

20:27

for the church to be reformed. the nest

20:30

hurts law said as canon law with it's

20:32

rules and decrease scholastic theology, philosophy and logic

20:34

as they are now taught or eradicated and

20:36

replaced by other studies. Daily. I

20:38

asked the law that the pier Study of the

20:41

Bible in the Church Fathers might be some and

20:43

back as soon as possible to participate. My Jordan

20:45

Peterson saying gender studies it's a whoop, right? They

20:47

pay grade is. that is all nonsense. Let's get

20:49

rid of it. All that say back to. The.

20:51

Studying Shakespeare or whatever. Or slide people

20:53

on the other side of that particular

20:55

debates. Attacking their and disciplines.

20:58

Guess is that I mean that's very

21:00

popular in the pseudo. On the left

21:02

is where the political spectrum is saying:

21:04

our whole discipline is colonial. It is

21:06

tainted by prejudice sets get rid of

21:08

at the con eyes, Anglo Saxon studies

21:10

or whatever. Yes, and people find that

21:12

Zoc skating right. At least there is

21:14

a wellspring of basis traditions. And

21:16

that's what makes him so he can

21:19

often. So. Luther is genuinely

21:21

the place from which both those

21:23

impulses come. Of course, he is

21:25

in turn drawing on aug in

21:27

and ultimately on the bible, but

21:29

the framing of it is. His.

21:31

New. This is what is

21:33

so thrilling, an intoxicating. Yeah

21:36

and. It's also very brave

21:38

because he is also is classics or keep

21:40

the paper seats the has a colleague written

21:43

by is a professor of law a guy

21:45

called here on him assess brilliant name and

21:47

says as to lisa in the pipes is

21:49

not can stand for this and this it

21:52

doesn't care to why does least the not

21:54

care. I think this a sense of

21:56

it's let's and excitement by think it is also

21:58

something much much more. Really, really

22:01

profound. that is so.

22:04

Important as so transformative

22:06

on the history of

22:08

Christianity. That the. Moment when

22:10

he supposedly first experience is it has been

22:13

called the Reformation moments and just put then

22:15

context on the difference from him and the

22:17

people with whom and the modern motors he

22:19

will die. If he gets this room. And.

22:22

If he missed his hair, he's

22:24

in real danger of phrase life,

22:26

right? Yes, So I think

22:28

you have to have an absolute certitude

22:30

to display that kind of courage. And

22:33

it's this reformation moment. I think that

22:35

gives Lisa that certitude. but whether it

22:37

is a moment or whether it is

22:39

a continuous process as much debated. That.

22:41

Essentially, we saw in the first episode how

22:44

Least Becomes A Monk. And he lives

22:46

in dread of God's desmond. He says that he

22:48

hates thought Munich God is a is going to

22:50

condemn him in the something he can do about

22:52

it and say this is why he's in a

22:54

starving himself and praying and confessing for hours on

22:56

end and all that kind of thing. and then

22:59

he gets to study the bible as a professor.

23:01

And. To reflect on what is is saying.

23:04

And. The more he does this say the more

23:06

he comes to see all his in their

23:08

attempt to earn. Liberation from Gods

23:10

condemnations as wasted effort and the key

23:12

figure in this is St. Paul writes

23:14

in the New Testament. There are a

23:16

number of his letter said, the earliest

23:19

texts that we have written by a

23:21

Christian and for people dinner his supporters

23:23

Tom is a boat was persecuting the

23:25

christians and and yes, converts on the

23:27

road to Damascus right? So initially Paul

23:29

is a fallacy. so he's very, very

23:31

learned in the scriptural teachings in the

23:33

law The law this been given to

23:35

Moses. Yeah, but it turns out that

23:37

this is not what redeem said what

23:39

redeem. Sin is this kind of blinding moment

23:41

that is is summed up in the face

23:43

of Road to Damascus. He has a vision

23:46

of the risen Christ and his blinded by

23:48

the descent on him of the spirit. And

23:50

this marks him out as one of

23:53

the elect and lose the when he

23:55

is reading pool he gets overwhelmed by

23:57

a similar consciousness of divine grace that.

24:00

It has chosen and loves him

24:02

and Lisa says of this moment

24:04

this feeling of being washed in

24:06

the love of God. I felt

24:08

I was altogether born again and

24:10

had enter paradise itself through open

24:12

gates. That thing have been born

24:14

again So influential is suited the

24:16

first person to use that particular

24:18

phrase. Being born Again. Was.

24:20

His personal popularized this. I should say I

24:22

think he popularized is it? I mean the

24:25

idea of being born again is in the

24:27

bible right? That is what Baptism gives you.

24:29

But I think the idea that you can

24:31

have this moment and be sure if it

24:33

says this is what's new Sir Alec Riley

24:35

He was brilliant on this on what it

24:37

is that makes this reformation moments so important.

24:39

He says that least the see on as

24:41

he was not a doctrine, it was a

24:43

love affair. So it's not about. Drawing.

24:46

Abstract see law school principals. My

24:48

it's about articulating ceiling, a kind

24:51

of in it and an intensity

24:53

of last. So. All

24:55

the time that Lisa had kind of been through reading

24:57

that he was unworthy of God's love. That.

25:00

He would be condemned by God's justice. God hates

25:02

him. This realization suddenly

25:04

that God loves him. And

25:06

the God loves him in a way that

25:08

transcends. Rubric since you've done

25:11

this and therefore you have to pay

25:13

the penalty and you'll be in Purgatory

25:15

this off season. That's not what it's

25:17

about, it on his title. it's kind

25:19

of intoxicating. It's beyond reason and. It

25:22

comes to looser, i think partly three kind

25:24

of psychological impulses, a kind of yearning for

25:26

this love in the face of all the

25:28

unhappiness that he's been feeling in trying to

25:31

kind of justify himself to god. But as

25:33

a say, it also comes from reading pool

25:35

and particularly one line said as a line

25:38

in the list to that pull that to

25:40

the distance and that chess that let the

25:42

ravens the righteous some live three says. And

25:46

looser understand system mean the face

25:48

specifically that God loves you and

25:50

that it doesn't matter if you're

25:52

lost. A sin everyone is lost

25:54

to said humanities say sinful that

25:56

they called three their own agency.

25:58

Obtain the forgiveness of. But

26:00

he doesn't matter. Because. He's. God

26:02

loves you. Then you exist in a state

26:04

of grace. And the state of Grace is.

26:07

The feeling that you have that

26:09

Christ is present. In you.

26:13

In. Your secret most heart. And

26:15

the certainty of back brace in turn to

26:17

see what lisa cause the piece of conscience.

26:20

That all your anxiety about whether you going to

26:22

be redeemed or not is gone. As

26:25

a you can have a kind of. Deep,

26:27

profound spiritual joy and

26:29

sense of certitude. That.

26:32

A since the Cops The Gordian Knot have all

26:34

the poetry stuff, all the confession stuff, all the

26:36

am I going to go to heaven or not?

26:39

And it's in a crisp obsessive receipts

26:41

you for elites kind of profound moment

26:43

because it provides. Both. A see

26:46

a logical but more important I

26:48

think an emotional justification yeah for

26:50

getting rid of over. Purgatory.

26:53

And clarity and. Pilgrimage

26:55

at All. that kind of stuff. And

26:57

it's not just that that stuff is

26:59

wrong. it's positively sinful. Because. It's

27:01

blocking off a proper understanding to

27:04

the Christian people. Of

27:06

God's love And say this is

27:08

why Looser emphasizes the loneliness of

27:10

the individual Christian before God, it

27:12

is you alone with scripture. With

27:15

face you don't need anything else. A

27:17

case that see things from number one.

27:19

If this is the case, why isn't

27:21

this? just a massive gets out for.

27:24

You. Know you don't have to feel bad

27:26

about your sins and stuff because God loves

27:28

you. Everyone Sinful? Yeah, Why? everybody is sinful.

27:30

The world is sinful and the thing is

27:32

all the masses is the God loves you.

27:34

Say Crackdown? You know celebrates this is the

27:36

great debate. And this is the

27:39

great courses are most kind of and

27:41

sense of an accent yeah I mean

27:43

you you put your finger recently. Secondly,

27:45

where I would say. thinking. About

27:48

the twenty two inches, a criticism that

27:50

some people would have is the capital

27:52

eat ensues. Yeah, some of. Some.

27:54

Activists no matter what side they're on.

27:56

his the tremendous sense of. Being.

27:59

Passed up. My righteousness. You.

28:01

Know the certain say that some

28:04

of us more skeptical find so

28:06

obnoxious. This. New the

28:08

not conscious other people will find his

28:10

moral certainty, his sense of being saved.

28:13

Oh. Look. At Me. God loves me.

28:15

Is that brilliance? Know he doesn't because he's

28:17

in a love affair frame. Yeah.

28:19

He's in a love affair. And when you really love

28:21

us as you that care what other people say you any care

28:23

about the person you're enough with. I. Mean, I think

28:25

that that is it. Yeah. Because

28:27

the institutional courses and would be. It's.

28:30

All About You isn't it right? This is

28:32

very narcissistic while it is, but it also

28:34

it's a D That again I think this

28:37

is why it matters because it does seed

28:39

into all kinds of intellectual trends that will

28:41

emerge over the course of the sentries that

28:43

followed suit against. Quite right the ideas initial

28:45

impact was like that darwinism or marxism in

28:48

there and times it was a concept that

28:50

they would have thought often quite those terms

28:52

before, but the seem to many people once

28:54

they had grasped that to be self evident,

28:57

be true. And it's not just Lisa. I

28:59

mean it's other people. As well what's a half

29:01

the said they can share in the last but of

29:03

course a kind of turns on it's head the nation

29:05

that everyone in Christendom is a question. Because.

29:08

What least three saying basically is that you

29:10

have to have this feeling. That. God

29:12

loves you that you've been born again.

29:14

Events to gets paradise. Oh, you're not

29:17

really a Christian? Yeah so the implications.

29:19

Had a fast is the only a

29:21

tiny elect really are going to be

29:23

saved and will they? Lisa does believe

29:25

that the knowledge of.is intense heat on

29:27

the soul of every human being. I

29:29

mean what he would call belief is

29:31

the idea that. You have

29:34

an absolute conviction. That. Yourself

29:36

A since has been granted to you and

29:38

this of course is a months units are

29:40

much rarer bloom. And. So he basically

29:42

loose ends up saying that may be any one

29:45

in a thousand. People. Ranked

29:47

as a Christian. A true Christian To know what

29:49

to say that the other people are some. I'm

29:51

very pleased. This is priceless. Trust my baby. he's

29:53

a cool. Them Chinos. Christians.

29:55

In name only. Very good. I do

29:58

like that. Yeah. excellent. And.

30:00

A pussy patient in ten of fact

30:02

is that. Say you live in

30:05

a protestant country in a process to be

30:07

unity. You can't just coast. I mean you

30:09

have to. You. Have to

30:11

work out what you believe. the job

30:13

of believing become something that is personal

30:15

to you. You can't just leave it

30:17

to the professional questions as it's about

30:19

your truth, right? It's about living your

30:22

truth. Yes, living your trust. This is

30:24

where the idea of living your truth

30:26

comes from out of course. the reason

30:28

why this breeds in the long run:

30:30

Atheism a on belief as well as

30:32

belief in God is that you made

30:34

us feel the strain is too great.

30:36

You know if you try to believe in you

30:39

don't say would get I think this is why

30:41

least the stands at the head of. The.

30:43

Atheism that emerges in in the

30:45

West by partly because atheism is

30:48

all about you. Again, it's like

30:50

what do you think exactly. It's

30:52

ignoring tradition and all that stuff.

30:54

I'd say that's Martinez Humanists A

30:57

patently, the descendants of Lisa. Their.

30:59

Truth is that they don't believe. But they they believe

31:01

in a very least the runway. Yeah.

31:04

So that's why I think it really matters

31:06

that basically police and that the sense that

31:08

we today understand belief is being born here.

31:11

And because we save a bit to a

31:13

to to it we don't recognize how the

31:16

Second States does. Yeah, we don't say I.

31:18

I'm. In the words I would uses individualism.

31:21

You're basically saying, are you not

31:23

that pre Lisa The idea of

31:25

religious belief was collective that you

31:27

really ought to believe, and most

31:29

people what they personally thought didn't

31:32

occur to them most people because

31:34

they just assumed you would go

31:36

along with what everybody else said

31:38

to most. Yeah, And it's Luther

31:40

who invents the idea. Of.

31:42

Popular Isis The idea that.

31:45

Your relationship with the world of religion must

31:48

be a personal wanna So when people say

31:50

well as center with i believe in God

31:52

but I have a personal spirituality or whatever.

31:54

yeah thats Lutheran because before him no one

31:57

would have ever thought to say that's right

31:59

Yeah I mean to go back to the

32:01

the cave it analyses. Were we saying that

32:03

that in the pandemic most people were content

32:06

to rely on epidemiologists to are in it

32:08

basically can tell them what to do. Yeah

32:10

they had no reason to doubt it to

32:13

and believe what they were saying. Now it's

32:15

as though say during tape it the vaccines

32:17

will only work on those who absolutely death

32:19

on say couple he believes that they will

32:22

work with s that's the cyst, the tides

32:24

but also against the idea that if you

32:26

met with a group of friends each of

32:28

them would say. Will have a very

32:31

personal beliefs by cove it I mean no

32:33

Would say that did not season and says

32:35

this in the long run is the problem

32:37

but Lisa doesn't receive must at this point.

32:39

Okay but is he thinks that there is

32:41

only one way of understanding it right and

32:43

he frames that I think has a single

32:45

blindly moment a reformation moments because in a

32:47

way. That. Doesn't make it more

32:50

personal. it does imply that rather than

32:52

something that he's worked at a for

32:54

a long period of time is a

32:56

single blinding moment of revelation that enables

32:58

him properly to understand. God damn biblical.

33:00

Is our experience like him subpoena tower

33:02

Think he bounced or something. Yeah, So.

33:05

He gives of arranges accounts of have he

33:07

came by this moment later in life say

33:09

one of them he's. He's

33:12

in the cloaca so the sitter and so

33:14

is I read from Fat This of the

33:16

previous episodes some if I had a flipping

33:18

pound for every time she is so he's

33:21

on the toilet right? And what

33:23

he's doing there is that he is appropriate

33:25

as damage to the Devil I excrements and

33:27

and sales to God okay in a later

33:29

in life he will say and again I'm

33:31

in a policies to people listening but when

33:34

he of as his face in Christ he

33:36

says is that is not enough for you

33:38

you devil addressing say some I have also

33:40

says to and pissed white your mouth on

33:42

that take a hearty bite of it he

33:44

to the have as many sale agencies this

33:46

season but essentially what he's saying is that

33:49

even but I midst of Satan Christ is

33:51

to be found that price can. Can purify

33:53

everything but you're right the other famous such he

33:55

gives his that he's in a tower in them.

33:57

On a stay at a bit about into think

33:59

me. Metaphorically it so debated I

34:01

don't think we'll ever know. Okay, and

34:03

I mean again. he also gives various

34:05

cancers to when it happened. same he.

34:07

He specifically gets the data fifty Nineteen.

34:09

So that's two years after the Ninety

34:12

Five. Theses of gonna say, Richard Rex

34:14

in his book I think very convincingly

34:16

argues that happened early and Fifteen eighteen

34:18

to just Aussies put it up. and

34:20

I think that this is what gives

34:22

him the courage to do what he

34:24

does to defy the Papacy. Yeah, because

34:26

in the summer, sixteen Eighteen Rain concludes

34:28

that they are heretical and. On the Seventh

34:30

of August news reached is Lisa in Pittsburgh but

34:33

he has summoned to Rome and he knows that

34:35

this is a summons is likely to end up.

34:37

With. Him being but the stakes litres facing

34:40

certain death or is seats return after

34:42

the break to find out what happens

34:44

to. The

34:51

Papacy since the Ninety Five

34:53

theses by the local Archbishop

34:55

have pondered them for eight

34:58

months before finally pronouncing in

35:00

August fifteen eighteen that they

35:02

were indeed heretical. The

35:04

author has been summoned to Rome. He.

35:07

Had this far from settling, the

35:09

matter served only to stoke the

35:11

flames father. Already.

35:13

Invest in Bird writings by the

35:16

local inquisitor had been ceremonially burns

35:18

in the market Square. Coyotes

35:20

I'm starting events from his residence

35:22

announced bad press it that the

35:24

bush fires of confirm A seats

35:27

were increase in me out of

35:29

control. As Papal legate

35:31

it was is urgent responsibilities a stump

35:33

them out. The best and

35:35

most Christian way to do this, he

35:38

decided was to summon the troublesome author

35:40

of the Ninety Five theses to Alex

35:42

Birds and persuade him in person to

35:44

recant. Austere, Learned

35:46

and devout Coyotes on was a

35:49

man whom even those normally suspicious

35:51

of inquisitors news that they could

35:54

trust. His. Invitation was

35:56

judy accepted on the

35:58

seventh evoked. Where fifteen?

36:01

eighteen? Martin. Luther

36:03

arrived in our

36:05

spark. Say.

36:08

This. Is the Moment Tom

36:10

From Dan Brown Tom Holland's book

36:13

Dominion Your Own book when looser.

36:15

A man whose writings have been

36:17

condemned as heretical. Comes face

36:20

to face with a prince

36:22

of the church. And

36:24

Inquisitor, The Cardinals? Yes, Who has

36:26

the power over him? Does he

36:28

not Our lives? His life hangs

36:30

in the balance. Here is that

36:32

system. Not so because

36:34

basically Lisa has been given safe passage

36:36

death. But yeah, I mean in the

36:39

long run? Absolutely. I mean this is

36:41

incredibly high stakes and particular because Pattern

36:43

in so many ways as embodiment of

36:45

everything that leads from is rejecting. So

36:48

he is someone his devoted his life

36:50

to the study of all hundreds of

36:52

the philosophy and on the medieval understanding

36:54

of God that leaves the research acting.

36:57

But he is. Absolutely. I mean, he's

36:59

a very impressive man. Very. Serious.

37:01

Very moral. He's actually head of

37:03

the Dominicans and will they? we've

37:05

been framing Dominican says the bodies

37:07

in the story in a Texas

37:09

Dominican. My, of course Dominicans elsewhere.

37:12

Are behaving very well. So we we think

37:14

friends to save Button the made the last

37:16

has us isn't the Dominican in the knee

37:19

wells who is standing up for the rights

37:21

of the Indians as he would call them

37:23

out there. Yeah and. Titan.

37:26

Is appalled by what is being told about

37:28

how the Spanish are behaving in the new

37:30

wells. and he as he meets the Spaniard

37:32

and he says to him do not doubt

37:34

that your king is in Hell so I

37:37

see so he is. He's a morally impressive

37:39

man, He's not want to a corrupt cardinals

37:41

these not a sinister evil have had the

37:43

kind that poisons a nunnery and he an

37:45

Italian right? this from Geiser hence the name

37:48

says hence his navy after his real name

37:50

is I'm also De Vito and he names

37:52

of some also after Thomas Aquinas miss the

37:54

greatest of the medieval. Theologians yeah, devotee

37:56

of Aristotle and the guy that

37:59

Lisa Heights. The person who Lisa

38:01

particular he hates? Absolutely. But as well

38:03

as being church when he's also very

38:05

very skillful diplomat. the facts has secrets

38:07

act itself to Spanish eggs. And so

38:09

he's been sent to Outspoken not specifically

38:11

to meet Lisa but to try to

38:14

alternate crusade against the Turks who was

38:16

starting to really move into the Balkans

38:18

at this point. So this is fascinating

38:20

isn't it? So we talked last time

38:22

to me. Or couple of episodes go

38:24

by how the Ottomans caps Constantinople and

38:26

Forty Fifty Three and absolutely. Unbelievably

38:29

shocking moments. Yeah, for Christendom.

38:31

So they say out years

38:33

and fifty sixteen that's spreading

38:35

through the Mediterranean. But. They're

38:37

gonna caps in Belgrade. And Fifteen

38:39

Twenty one Yeah so they're preparing

38:41

for big campaign against Belgrade. It's

38:43

this very summer than they cross

38:45

hungry. Five years later Cnn by

38:47

the end of the Fifteen Twenty

38:49

as they are going to be

38:51

at the gates of Vienna. so

38:53

really within striking distance of Germany

38:55

she has started stuff as and

38:58

remember that we talked about the

39:00

Johan Hilton the month in ice

39:02

and Bug where Lisa was school

39:04

who yeah he's by the rates

39:06

prophecies in his own blood and

39:08

he had prophesied. The Germany would be

39:10

conquered by the tests and that this

39:12

would herald the coming the apocalypse. A

39:14

Katana is absolutely against this. The Papacy

39:16

is not in favor of the idea

39:18

that the apocalypse is threatening and in

39:20

fact, and Fifteen Thirteen a council in

39:22

the Latter and palace in Rome had

39:25

specifically prohibited preaching the imminence of the

39:27

anti Christ But of course least three

39:29

Zulay for this not least because Hilton

39:31

this prophetic month had for told that

39:33

her a great prophet would emerge and

39:35

Fifteen Sixteen which is close enough the

39:37

Sistine Seventeen police or to. Think that

39:39

it might actually be him and just on

39:41

that apocalypse. Who thinks I'm You And I

39:44

know and everyone. Listen to this knows: the

39:46

Osmonds didn't get into Central and Western Europe.

39:48

While I didn't get beyond hungry they didn't

39:50

take they didn't get and seventy But nobody

39:53

knows that then. I mean the

39:55

whole new third story. Surely.

39:57

Only makes sense if you think that this is.

40:00

A society that thinks

40:02

it is facing imminent

40:04

invasion. Occupation. Yeah. The

40:07

stamping out of Christianity. Whatever. that

40:09

does this incredible sense of existential

40:12

bread bags over the whole story.

40:14

Yeah, And. This really ties

40:16

titans hands in dealing with

40:18

Luther because we mentioned that

40:20

some the Emperor Maximilian is

40:22

seeding. And he wants

40:24

to ensure that his grandson Charles

40:27

will succeed him as emperor. And

40:29

this obviously. Not

40:32

as part of Fredericks leases defender and

40:34

protector as an Elector. Yeah, to is

40:36

not done deal that a Habsburg will

40:38

succeed. He could be somebody else. Know

40:40

it's not a done deal. I.

40:42

Think the key thing is that tells what's

40:45

to be elected unanimously. brand. Frederick is keeping

40:47

his cause coast is tested. not saying who

40:49

he is going to vote for? I say

40:51

that means that tear down. If he's to

40:54

get a kind of united front against the

40:56

Turks, he can't afford to alienate Frederick. And

40:58

he That is why Frederick is able to

41:00

persuade diet and to meet Lisa in Oxburgh

41:03

rather than haven't sent to Rome. Right

41:05

again least respected lucky about this

41:07

so he's lucky but of course

41:09

he also the they has this

41:11

incredible ability to seize the limelight

41:13

and so again he goes to

41:15

add spent on foot. Kind

41:17

of playing the humble man of god rights

41:19

as opposed to the splendor of pump of

41:22

care time as a kind of prince the

41:24

church cats had welcomes have very gently his

41:26

kind of playing the part of a father

41:28

speaking to a song trying to persuade him

41:30

as the era of his ways but they

41:32

have three meetings in access to the meat

41:34

instead had as he says it more and

41:37

more he more double cross. His voice goes

41:39

up higher and higher because he realizes very

41:41

very quickly that what's at stake is not

41:43

the details of the night sky Ccs. It's

41:46

about. Essentially. Who

41:48

has authority? In the Christian

41:50

World. And. To catch and it

41:52

seems self evident. who does it's of tshirts

41:54

it's a Catholic church. It always has done

41:56

it always wealth me to question that is

41:59

just unspeakable. Lutheran.

42:01

Questioning that he's questing the Papacy is

42:03

questioning canon law. He's questioning it. I

42:06

will. The philosophy derived from Aristotle. All

42:08

of it. And. Looser,

42:11

Is arguing that all that really matters

42:13

is. The. Bible, Solar Script Euro

42:15

scripture alone. yeah and he says to

42:17

tie attempts the Pope is not

42:19

above but under. The word of

42:22

God. And cats I can't believe

42:24

it. I can't believe that he is argue

42:26

with this obscure monk who is making this

42:28

case. And refusing to accept

42:31

the majesty. Of the Teachings

42:33

of the Church says she's analogy that you've

42:35

used previously in the book Us and the

42:37

Series. It is the equivalent

42:39

of incredibly distinguished. Scientists.

42:42

In. Where the world's great scientists suddenly

42:44

finding the he's got have a debate

42:46

to somebody who not merely doesn't come

42:48

anywhere near him in eminence but says

42:51

i don't really believe in your science

42:53

and is kind of ripping it down.

42:55

So. The Foundations and saying he doesn't accept

42:58

everything that that scientists and his colleagues

43:00

take for granted. But. I space

43:02

a difference would be that this person who's

43:04

opposing the process of would have a basic

43:06

grounded. That. Would enable him to argue

43:08

his case because least three saying disprove me

43:10

go to the bible and proved to me

43:13

that the pope said to have this of

43:15

the aristotle is right on that or whatever

43:17

Yeah. And. That's a problem for him,

43:19

right? That is a problem. And. Case

43:22

and comes back as as his. But this

43:24

is he. They, this is the masses, the

43:26

church, the sister. This and I embody it

43:28

and Basis as in a my conscience is

43:30

more important to me than what you're saying

43:32

here. And here he is making the police

43:34

a constant yes, which again is so important

43:37

to the way that I think people in

43:39

the modern West understand the basis of what

43:41

they do yeah, the net and moral underpinnings.

43:43

but again it is Lisa who is taking

43:45

this step and for crimes and Constance as

43:47

something that is more important than anything else

43:50

really. And so you can see why. Completely

43:52

loses his his rag and tells

43:54

Lisa to go away and says

43:56

you know only come back if

43:58

you as a. Patrick and to

44:01

Lisa recent and so what happens

44:03

is that? Stop it. He was

44:05

the head of the Augustinians in

44:07

Germany, the guy who'd originally made

44:09

Lisa a professor at second. But

44:11

he releases Lisa from his vows.

44:13

And so that means he's no longer. Part.

44:16

Of the Augustinians As a lease or

44:18

is now in a he feels he's

44:21

alone. But. To be

44:23

alone for Lisa is liberating it brings.

44:25

He plays the to.com and so he

44:27

see displays his love of God by

44:29

writing to unbelievably read letters, one that

44:31

he sense to catch and one to

44:34

the Pope. And then he he clambers

44:36

over the yeah, the city walls Max

44:38

bout and he scoffed aspect of it.

44:40

but she's been kicked out of the

44:43

Augustinians. Has that affected or happened? I

44:45

think it's been a mutually agreed separation

44:47

rights because our pets thinks I don't

44:49

need this hassle. You. Know this is marriage.

44:52

Yeah. He doesn't want his order and

44:54

himself personally to be tracked down into

44:57

that kind of the match. He makes

44:59

us all this stuff that's going on,

45:01

right? I think it would be best

45:03

for the reputation of the order say

45:05

that assists, but you know already this

45:08

kind of concern ways what institutions will

45:10

think. Is. Starting to

45:12

look very retro. Because. Luther

45:15

again. It is broadcasting his

45:17

perspective grant and because it's more interesting

45:19

it gets far more attention. So he

45:21

gets back to Britain bag and he

45:23

writes up an account of his encounter

45:25

with care tense and his is it

45:27

has pleased heaven that I should become

45:29

The talks, the people that nice which

45:31

is tremendous humble bragging at a local

45:34

state and he's not going to broadcast

45:36

on account of what he did. So

45:38

Luther is like someone who has masses

45:40

of social media accounts. I catch sight

45:42

someone he doesn't even have an email

45:44

address. And. It. Means

45:46

that Lisa contaminate the terms of the

45:48

debate. You

45:51

compared Lisa term Jordan Peterson schoolchildren pizza

45:53

and provokes massive counteracts. And yeah I

45:56

mean he doesn't have it all his

45:58

own way in a his endlessly being

46:00

abused. Know I say the same thing

46:02

starts to happen to Lisa that. Luther.

46:05

Is not the only person who is

46:07

able to use the printing press. There

46:09

are other people as well. There are

46:11

other people with a sense of occasion.

46:13

I one of them is a former

46:16

colleague. A friend of leases a man

46:18

called you have at an ex is

46:20

appalled by were Looser is going unchallenged

46:22

into a debate. And again

46:24

this is very. Twenty. First century.

46:26

isn't it Death? So this would happen

46:28

now. Richard Dawkins Meeting with a Bishop

46:30

appearing on that Joe Rogan sale or

46:33

something like that. Yeah, fc it's kind

46:35

of thing. And. Challenge

46:37

is easy to a debate looser agrees

46:39

and he'll He'll go with close the

46:41

chance to answer to that university who's

46:43

kind of rallying behind behind Lisa and

46:45

I chance of be more radical than

46:47

it's citizens he he gets so excited

46:49

by the message yeah he does for

46:51

some to that's and Lisa except seems

46:53

tasted his in Leipzig. But. This

46:56

turns out to be a bad mistake.

46:58

Say. Rather like if your advice on Joe

47:00

Rogan. As an epidemiologist to

47:02

debates and one who is skeptical

47:04

of access yeah, you know you're

47:06

hiding to nothing because defend you

47:09

will be against you. And Leipzig

47:11

is the author. Saxony as net.

47:14

Ducal. Sexting Electoral. So it's

47:16

genuinely his rivals. Eritrea yes,

47:18

And. The Duke Georg is very devout

47:21

catholic and very hostile to Lisa.

47:23

yeah same it's and friendly territory

47:25

Police us at least get said

47:27

his serious because the people of

47:29

light sick have given pick a

47:31

very fancy coat down and they

47:33

have given him one socialists and

47:35

it struck about this thread is

47:37

attack is a very good debater.

47:40

And. Very good at

47:42

publicizing himself, and he is able

47:44

to get Luther publicly to confess

47:46

to a whole staggering array of

47:48

heresy. So he gets Lisa to

47:50

go public record as saying that

47:52

the authorities the Pope does not

47:54

have the Saxena scripture. That.

47:56

Poetry doesn't. That. Yeah

47:58

and hosts. The. Prague heretic

48:00

who had been birds at the stake

48:03

in Fourteen Fourteen at been right on

48:05

all kinds of issues. Yeah, that's massive

48:07

is Matt Scott Hendrix I think in

48:10

his book on Later says Lutheran. She

48:12

says many of horses beliefs were completely

48:14

question and that's like saying. He

48:17

not was right. You. Know is, miss

48:19

him and it's sort of. It's tainting

48:21

yourself in the eyes of the Orthodox

48:24

beyond redemption. Yeah. I the

48:26

is the kind of thing that can happen say

48:28

on that twitter spat. That in.

48:30

A people gets a cross that they

48:32

end up saying things that they really

48:35

come to regret. Guess so cause that

48:37

actually exists. Tastes he compares to work

48:39

save giving arms or whatever. Yeah, To

48:42

menstrual sales as based on which again is

48:44

unit us up with kind of thing that

48:46

you want to have on the of twitter

48:48

feed and on a good works we can't

48:50

massive get bogged down in that right away

48:52

because. That's a very big issue

48:55

but that is a huge part of

48:57

kind of everyday. Piety is meant that

48:59

the you are expected to do a

49:01

whole range of lights give a bit

49:03

of money here and our town free

49:05

that you know so lots of people

49:07

that is the essence of their religious

49:09

life is like being kind publicly but

49:11

with money basically. Isn't. It was

49:13

just giving money to a beggar and

49:15

you'll be total. This is menstrual sales

49:17

have guests are stay put of i

49:19

have his stats facts or. I'd

49:22

be offended but of hours to sit sit

49:24

This is basically why it's generally accepted that

49:27

loose us and cause that of last race.

49:29

But. In the long run, this doesn't

49:31

matter because it's not what's actually said in

49:33

the debate that counts, but how it is

49:36

presented. And also Ak is fairly

49:38

good at the Beijing and although he

49:40

doesn't understand the importance of self publicity,

49:43

In. A He's nowhere compared to Lisa.

49:45

and basically I mean X reputation

49:47

gets annihilated by Lisa and by

49:50

his followers. So he gets satirized

49:52

as Alexa as a drunkard kind

49:54

of satires on him. A Publish

49:56

that so him flying on a

49:58

goat think it sounds. The and

50:00

shit he's senate employing a which are he

50:02

ends up being frustrated. He ends up being

50:05

castrated exactly what it's about someone if is

50:07

coming. They issue

50:09

and cartoon same as a pig and

50:11

he just becomes a kind of public

50:13

object ritual in a way that someone

50:15

being molested on social media might be

50:17

today are and acc is really their

50:19

the that the I mean he's he's

50:21

the first victim of modern social media

50:23

might say bank and some a lint

50:25

array possesses of his victory. That ultimately

50:27

doesn't matter because it was not interesting.

50:29

were. Sleuth's campaign was interesting and

50:31

co people's attention please it's thrilling,

50:34

because again in a he's now

50:36

going full tilt. Week.

50:38

After week he's coming out with ever

50:40

both brilliant kind of heresy stocking. thrilling

50:42

Harris's and he can do this basically

50:44

because now he's no longer a month

50:46

is not bound to must retain so

50:48

he can just say oh it's fine

50:50

Spear on the equipment computer yeah fire

50:52

spouts got of messages and things that

50:54

and actually like some i'm waking up

50:56

going on Twitter at these people replied

50:58

to be He spends a lot of

51:00

his time replying to people who are

51:03

sending him abuse and so he's very

51:05

kind of trump. He and he invents

51:07

nicknames for his enemies. Say exercise though

51:09

the pope that wolf but he's also writing

51:11

series of brilliant for teases and I think

51:13

he's feeling he they i might saw thing

51:15

for see as a Lamp. On. Going

51:17

full in. and so by this point he's

51:20

thinking that it's not enough just to reform

51:22

the church. The whole thing to Cisco to

51:24

be pulled down. And he

51:26

starts to broadcast this message. And

51:29

he is dominating. The.

51:31

Discourse in a way that no one

51:33

has ever done before. So I alibi

51:35

rig is this incredible statistic that over

51:37

the course of the Sistine Twenties, Looser

51:39

was responsible for over assess as the

51:41

entire output of pamphlets by German presses.

51:43

Yes, and at this point and Fifty

51:45

nineteen is even more. But his other

51:47

people are catching up with him so

51:49

it's basically saturation bombing of his of

51:51

his opponents. And by the time that

51:54

Lisa gets that bowl that Papal bull

51:56

of it's mean. case In: on the

51:58

tenth of December, Fifteen. Twenty. Very.

52:00

Very little. About the

52:02

athletes that the he has

52:04

not gone for. So he

52:07

has attacked priestly celibacy. Because

52:09

this a scriptural sense and for it

52:11

and he he says the pope has

52:14

little path come on this as he

52:16

has to forbid eating, drinking, growing fat

52:18

or the natural movement of the bowels

52:20

bows again. Some suspect advice if you

52:22

I'm oscillator obsessed with this issue. I

52:25

mean it says by them because they threats to be

52:27

fair. Okay, He attacks the cult of

52:29

the saints. He attacks pilgrimages.

52:31

He attacks masses for the dead.

52:33

He writes cities on the Babylonian

52:35

Captivity of the church that openly

52:37

identifies the Pope with anti Christ

52:40

and opponent is his a guy

52:42

called Thomas Myrna. Is. So appalled

52:44

by this that he decides translated directly

52:46

into German before least the can put

52:48

it out thinking that lethal be condemned

52:51

in his own words. Oh no other

52:53

Francisco's bread affair a threat to as

52:55

big families or inevitably gives manner and

52:57

obese his name So murder in the

52:59

jab and meow. Say. With I

53:02

sat under his idiot that's very trump

53:04

He and his nets yeah, see cause

53:06

and meow idiot. And. He

53:08

goes on to reject you need to send

53:10

a single idea of the eleventh century Reformation,

53:12

the idea that sweaty and lead to a

53:14

separate. And he says no, not

53:17

at all. So. He phrases it barry

53:19

memorably Christian. Man is a perfectly free

53:21

lord of all and subject to non

53:23

a christian as opposed to be beautiful

53:25

servants of all subject to all and

53:27

matters to dissolve the traditional. Andris.

53:29

Between clergy and laity, he's basically

53:31

stripping everything away and saints just

53:33

got to be was in the

53:35

Bible about Jesus said just quite.

53:37

Rosaries, pilgrimages, the worship of saints,

53:40

masses, muntari. There was nothing here

53:42

about Christ. People. Should trust and

53:44

nothing but Jesus Christ alone. So in other

53:46

words, The. Whole paraphernalia, the house

53:48

Of and this one other aspects the some

53:50

said one of the things he writes us

53:53

three big works and see that year. One.

53:55

Of them is the Babylonian Captivity, but another one

53:58

is the address to the Christian Have been. The

54:00

the German Nation about later on is

54:02

seen as a t text in the

54:04

development of German nationalism even though the

54:06

concept makes no sense for somebody and

54:08

it's his day. Do you think there

54:11

is a very very early kind of

54:13

protests, nationalists and the sort of resentment

54:15

of the foreign prelates over the Alps.

54:17

In with all his cardinals are we

54:19

on his Germans are being that be

54:21

takes around for too long as they're

54:24

bit of up. Definitely lose. Have really

54:26

sales his German this and it's possible

54:28

he dislikes about. The. Papacy

54:30

Okay, and there is a

54:32

hostility towards Italians. It's.

54:34

A bit like hostility to the you in

54:36

Britain Bryant that that kind of thing puzzles

54:39

bureaucrats. the name foreigners. Who cares what they

54:41

say that second bureaucrats pushing us around? Yeah,

54:43

that kind of thing. Yeah, because that was

54:46

their little bit with yeah and plus writing

54:48

and set in baby it was. Miss this

54:50

a such a very early sensibility as

54:52

so Again, I mean this is intoxicating. so

54:54

this is also part of the mix that

54:57

is fueling support for Lisa Right in A

54:59

the opportunity to dislike foreigners is always spend

55:01

his kids that is have club at

55:03

his horse. Start a fund for the people.

55:05

Enjoy that yes I say. I think that that's

55:08

why when the it's not just insects and birds

55:10

that the Papal Bull is treated with contents of

55:12

even in Leipzig were. In a. Fat

55:15

as it happened in these are haven't

55:17

covered himself in glory. The pool is

55:19

ripped to shreds and smeared with that's

55:21

cool excrement. Now okay of the reservation

55:23

is very very it's excrement himself. I

55:25

wondered if you're gonna go there again

55:27

but you're at Sweets you how bags

55:29

very own on my kids are that

55:31

goes out and tries to post this

55:33

and a whole gang of children just

55:35

pull it down right and they all

55:37

follow as arrests cysts singing a piece

55:39

of songs about him and the attending

55:41

a fifty students comes from Pittsburgh and

55:43

they kind of in. A they they chase him

55:45

and obese him. So. It's I mean it's

55:48

a kind of literal months during rights said

55:50

the whole of Germany. Is on

55:52

fire with this. Spots.

55:55

In. A I'm Elizabeth not out of the woods at

55:58

all with as if Germany's on soccer. That

56:00

Luther himself, my sued literally be

56:02

on fire. Yes, very good. Because

56:04

on the third of January, Fifteen

56:06

Twenty one, he is formally excommunicated.

56:09

And the question now is

56:11

what does that mean. And.

56:14

All. I now turn to.

56:17

The. Figure of the Emperor. It was no

56:19

longer Maximilian with us by this point. He

56:21

has said. And his

56:24

grandson who's as rather thought he

56:26

teenager called Charles has indeed succeeded

56:28

him. Yeah, so he's now ruling

56:31

as tells the fifth. And the

56:33

question now is what will tell

56:35

us this Do pricey. For.

56:38

A cliffhanger and. That.

56:40

Is what we will look at. And.

56:43

On this episode, say what A cliffhanger tells

56:45

the fifth, the new Emperor who goes on

56:47

to become. One. Of the most spectacular

56:49

fake as new European history with Avast and

56:51

Boss the likes of which had not been

56:54

seen since the days the Romans. I mean

56:56

even bigger than the Raymond because he's got

56:58

the New World now as well. or South

57:00

America. Yeah, so Charles the Fist, he has

57:03

to. Decide what to do

57:05

with Lisa. The stage is set

57:07

for this unbelievable confrontation. Which.

57:09

We know as the diet positions

57:11

and then there's a was delighted

57:14

generations of them school children so

57:16

people would be disappointed not to

57:18

hear me say. That.

57:20

If you're a member of our own

57:22

order of fries. The

57:24

rest is History Club. He can actually hear about

57:27

the size of firms rights away as a diet

57:29

of our own as soon neck as a diet

57:31

is kind of to talking shop which is basically

57:33

what the rest is. History Club is a really

57:36

lovely way if you get lazy benefits and one

57:38

of them as listened terms of my Mom Lisa

57:40

fact. Hours and hours on end. If

57:42

you not remember bad luck you'll just

57:45

have to wait till the next episode

57:47

drop. as the producers call it, I

57:49

wouldn't but they do and I'm a

57:51

bombshell some so interesting Thanks very much

57:53

to by everybody right?