0:30

Hey , hey, beautiful people. How are

0:32

we doing? I am Anitra

0:34

in Lawson storyteller, producer,

0:37

educator, content creator, the

0:39

best sister in the world. Lord co

0:42

co-sign that co-sign that

0:43

I , I will buy . Your credit

0:45

ain't good enough for me to co-sign with you, <laugh>.

0:49

He is Dr . Andre Eugene

0:52

Evans. I love throwing his middle name out there so y'all can Google

0:55

him and find out all of his history.

0:57

Jesus ,

0:58

Listen. No, there don't

1:00

do that. They're actually, I've Googled my name

1:02

before, and there's a guy who's been to prison for

1:05

five years with my same person , last

1:07

name, and then there's a football

1:09

player . There's a football player with my first and last name

1:12

too. So , yeah, don't be Google .

1:14

See ? So that , so that middle name is good, then <laugh> . Good

1:16

to know that middle, that middle name is saving you right

1:18

now.

1:19

<laugh> . No , neither one of them names Saving

1:21

me <laugh> . Anyways, what's going

1:23

on? Savage Siblings,

1:25

And he is my brother. He

1:27

is a father. He is a pastor.

1:30

Theologian, author, creative , uh,

1:33

the second best storyteller in the family. Joking,

1:36

kidding , gene .

1:36

No, no, no. I agree with that one. I'm

1:38

not a storyteller at all. <laugh> .

1:41

And we are the Savage siblings. This

1:43

is the Savage Sibling Podcast, where we

1:46

are brutally honest, relentlessly transparent,

1:48

and unapologetically authentic. Thank

1:51

you so much for joining us for

1:53

another episode, bro,

1:55

bro, checking in with you. How you doing?

1:57

I'm doing well, doing well, and getting ready

1:59

for this episode. I , um,

2:02

I have a good friend, well , she's part

2:04

of the choir at , uh, at the church, and

2:06

she comped me and

2:09

some tickets for an upcoming , uh,

2:11

concert. And I don't know why, but

2:14

I looked at the, the flyer and I

2:16

don't know why , uh, for those of you

2:19

watching in Dayton or listening rather, in Dayton, Ohio.

2:21

But it reminded me of a concert I went

2:23

to with mom several years ago, and this is when

2:25

I was , uh, married to Katina and

2:27

Katina and I went to this concert. It was for

2:30

Touch and the Touchups. Oh , <laugh> in Dayton

2:32

. And , and oh God, they were

2:34

just phenomenal. But, but the Flyer

2:37

had a guy, you know, had all the band

2:39

on there. And, and I'm looking at one

2:41

guy who looks pretty prominent on the flyer

2:43

, and the assumption is , is that he's

2:45

the lead, but he's not. And , and this is why

2:48

it reminded me of touching the touch-ups

2:50

<laugh> several years back, <laugh> , when we

2:52

went to that concert , uh,

2:55

the guy , the guys came out, the band

2:57

came out, singers came out, touch , started

2:59

singing, and I mean, the Touchups are getting

3:01

it. They in old school fashion, <laugh> doing

3:04

their thing. And I'm gonna tell

3:06

you, you know, as you're watching the concert,

3:08

which is great, and it's great because they're

3:10

local, it's great because they sing . So

3:13

everybody in the crowd knows them . But I'm watching

3:15

, and like in between

3:17

touch and one of the touchups, all of a sudden

3:20

this like tambourine pokes through, and

3:22

it's just shaking , and then it disappears,

3:24

<laugh> , and then it like pokes through again, and

3:27

it's just shaking and then it disappears . And,

3:29

and this tambourine is being held by

3:32

hands that are not touches and not

3:34

the touches up fans . And then

3:37

all of a sudden, like party, like the Red

3:39

Sea , this dude comes out with his

3:41

tambourine, gets to the front

3:43

of the stage. And I mean, when I

3:45

tell you he had a whole church rhythm

3:48

going, you know, that old lady in church bang,

3:50

that tambourine on like beat seven and

3:53

eight at three corner on her hips on her hand , man

3:55

on her side , side everywhere, mean she's

3:57

hitting rhythms on that tambourine. That just

4:00

the Holy Spirit be proud. That's why they,

4:03

you know, that song Make a Joyful Noise to

4:05

the Lord. It was pinned after her. David

4:07

was like, there's gonna be this woman in Che

4:10

<laugh> . This gonna be her . That's

4:13

what this dude is like. I mean,

4:15

when I tell you he took over the

4:17

rest of the show, we wasn't

4:19

even listening to touch anymore. We wasn't

4:21

even listening to the Touchups. We just got

4:23

excited every time that little tambourine

4:26

peeked through touch on a touchups start shaking right

4:28

? And his whole body emerged, and he was getting

4:31

it. And I remember saying

4:33

in that moment, look, whatever

4:35

you do, get in where you fit in

4:37

and do it well. And that's really what he did.

4:39

He played that tambourine like nobody's

4:42

business <laugh> . And , and , and so that

4:44

, that made me laugh. And I felt like, man,

4:46

God, you came up with the right just memory

4:49

for this episode . Really, it

4:51

doesn't matter what you're doing. Just,

4:54

you know, whatever you do, <laugh> , I

4:56

don't care if you a tambourine player,

4:59

get in where you fit in and play that bad boy like

5:02

nobody's business. I , I think

5:04

I laughed on that for a few days. But , and

5:06

, and , and what it really ended up doing for

5:09

me the rest of the week is just like, can you

5:11

just enjoy what you're good at doing everywhere

5:13

you go? Yeah . Do you <laugh> ? Right?

5:15

Just enjoy what you do wherever

5:18

you go. Do you be the best? You

5:20

don't, don't be trying to mimic mimic anyone

5:23

else. Don't be, I've heard people say, oh , Andre,

5:25

you go be the next. And I , and I always

5:27

tell I ain't gonna be the next anybody. I'm

5:29

gonna be the first best Dre.

5:32

Just do . That's so good. B , just have

5:34

a great time. I'll tell you , I was, I'm

5:36

in the car, I'm doing my best

5:38

car driver's seat moves in the car. I don't

5:40

care anybody Right ? <laugh> looking . I'm just doing me.

5:43

I just, man , I don't know his name. But

5:45

, uh, for those of you listening to Dayton , if,

5:47

you know, touching the touch up , I need you to get this,

5:50

this episode. You know , they do know, right

5:52

? I need you to get this episode to the

5:54

tambourine dude with touching the touch

5:56

up . Let him know he has inspired

5:58

me out . Me , he has inspired

6:01

me. So, but yeah, I've been, I've

6:03

been rocking with that energy all week long.

6:06

I thought about it just everywhere I go , just

6:09

enjoy my complete authentic self.

6:12

Don't care what anybody think , I'm just gonna do . That's

6:14

right .

6:15

That's

6:15

Right . To me. And, and , and it , and it's

6:17

a , you know, that stuff like that is infection. It's

6:20

absolutely attractive. Yes . And , and , and , and

6:23

it just changes the atmosphere.

6:25

You just realize who you're in

6:27

any atmosphere where you go when you just , just

6:30

do you and enjoy being

6:33

the best parts of you . So yeah. That,

6:35

that's, that, that is what I've been

6:37

, uh, vibing off of all week. That's what my

6:39

energy is being thanks to Touch and the touchups

6:41

tambourine playing . So, but that's

6:43

me. What about you? What's been going on with you?

6:46

You know , your story reminds me, and I guys are gonna , they're

6:48

gonna come through the, the speakers and get

6:50

me on this. But I remember when I went to

6:52

see Morrisey in the time, and isn't,

6:55

isn't the gentleman's name Jerome? Jerome? Is

6:57

that right?

6:57

Jerome?

6:58

That's how your story reminded. 'cause the

7:00

first time I saw them live, I was mesmerized

7:02

at just how Yes . Energetic

7:05

Yes . And dope. His energy was, and of course,

7:07

you can't go wrong with Morrisey in the time , like

7:09

Right . It's , it was a dope show, but I was like, Jerome

7:11

ain't nothing like he's,

7:13

He not play with <laugh>

7:14

A critical Yes . Integral, amazing

7:17

part of this entire, you know, ensemble

7:19

and experience. And so that's what I kept

7:22

thinking. That's how I felt about him. And, and he knew

7:24

it too. He was on the stage like, yeah, I'm here trip

7:26

.

7:27

I don't sing, I don't play the instrument,

7:29

but this is what I do. <laugh> , get

7:31

That mirror. Bring it out. Like , I was like , go ahead

7:33

Jerome,

7:34

Man . Shout , shout out to all the

7:36

Jerome, the tambourine players,

7:39

the Macs for every James

7:41

Brown. Right ? What is it? Bentley

7:43

F's words for all that . That's what I was

7:44

Thinking for . Yeah . People

7:46

Shout out for all to all those dude , shout

7:48

out to Bishop Don Juan for the Snoop Doggs

7:50

out there. There you go. <laugh> , shout out to

7:52

all these players. I mean, because they

7:54

really make the world go round. They're

7:57

Necessary serious . They really ,

7:58

The world. They're so necessary. And

8:00

if that's you, man, shout out to you . Like

8:03

, God , God bless you . Hold that mirror

8:05

. I love it . Play that tambourine. I love it . Open

8:07

that umbrella. Put on the cape . Do

8:10

what you gotta do . Put the cape on, put the tape on.

8:12

God bless you people. God bless y'all.

8:15

I

8:15

Love it. That's, that's truly what the

8:17

, what your story reminded me of. And it was one of the best

8:19

parts of that concert. I was so glad I got a chance to see

8:22

them. But, but yeah, no, I'm doing

8:24

really well. This, this week for me has

8:26

been the week of like second win . Oh,

8:29

Dang . Um,

8:29

And I think that's actually, you know, connects beautifully

8:32

to, to the stories we just presented,

8:34

that, you know, having those people in your

8:36

corner that, you know, when you're

8:38

trying to catch your breath and get that second win , they're usually

8:40

the ones that really help fan that along,

8:43

you know? Yeah. Yeah . And so I know

8:45

just throughout this week, it's, it's just been very

8:47

much of when I feel like I can't

8:49

give another inch and I'm just like, Ugh , I

8:51

really am tired, or I really wanna break, or

8:54

just wanna let this go . Yeah . You know, God has

8:56

been so good at just saying, I got you.

8:58

And then I , he just, you know, graces me

9:00

with a , a flood of a second wind to

9:02

just keep going , uh, further. And I

9:04

do feel like absolutely people around you

9:07

can help undergird you, you

9:09

know, while that second wind is building up mm-hmm . <affirmative>

9:11

. And so, yeah. So I've been so grateful for that,

9:13

that I could take that breath, take that

9:15

beat, and know that a second wind , God's gonna bless

9:17

me with that. People who love me, who around me Amen.

9:20

Are gonna bless me with that second wind . And

9:22

so I just soar forward . You soar

9:24

on, it's , it's once it comes . So definitely

9:26

grateful.

9:27

Yeah. It's so, I love that, you know, Daniela,

9:30

all my oldest daughter always mm-hmm

9:32

. Says , um, I can

9:34

never have two bad days

9:36

because on my first bad day, my

9:38

tribe, meaning her family, my tribe

9:41

shows up and beats the drum

9:43

and I get back up like I , she said that not

9:45

too long ago . That's

9:46

Good . It

9:46

Really is . And it so

9:49

important to have those folk around you

9:51

, um mm-hmm . <affirmative> and , and , and realize how

9:53

valuable they're in that type

9:56

of role in your life. And , um mm-hmm

9:58

. <affirmative> , it's huge. It's huge. Yeah. When she

10:00

said that, she said, I , I don't get dad, I

10:02

don't get two bad days in a row, because when I tell

10:04

you about my first bad day and you get on

10:06

the line telling everybody to pray for me, I

10:09

feel my tribe . That's it. Beating the drum, and

10:11

I gotta get up and start going. And so, yeah.

10:14

Yeah, man, those, those , that's so good. God

10:16

puts those people in your life and they're

10:18

so instrumental, they really,

10:21

so valuable. Mm-hmm . Uh , everybody has

10:24

value that that's in your tribe. Everybody has

10:26

value . That's, you know , that you're , that

10:28

helps you , you know , just kind of get your second win

10:30

and keep going. Mm-hmm . <affirmative> , so , yeah . Mm-hmm . <affirmative> . Absolutely

10:33

. I feel that one .

10:34

I love it. I love it. Let's jump into this , uh,

10:37

sound off segment. Sound

10:39

Off segment . Sound

10:41

Off . I'm gonna , um, go ahead and

10:43

dig in here real quick. Okay . Because I was, when

10:46

I was thinking about this episode, it

10:48

came from a conversation that I was having with a

10:50

, a few of my friends, really based

10:52

on some creative endeavors that we're working on. Uh

10:55

, but it , it kind of boiled down to this notion

10:57

of, or this idea of that there's

11:00

a , a fundamental need in every

11:02

human experience to be

11:05

needed, right? Like, that it's an

11:07

important and vital

11:10

part of the life journey that

11:12

we as human beings need

11:14

to feel needed. And I think that word

11:16

feel is critical, which will definitely kind of unpack

11:19

it a little bit later. But I mean, if you think about

11:22

romantic relationships, right? There's

11:24

a need to feel needed on both sides When

11:26

you think about parents to children and children's

11:28

to parents like that experience,

11:31

certainly employers to employees,

11:33

right?

11:34

Absolutely. Ly

11:35

Absolutely . There's need , there's a give and take between those dynamics.

11:38

I think really all manners of partnerships

11:40

and friendships at the core

11:42

. There's always that kind of need , uh,

11:44

to feel needed. And so, you know, we

11:46

titled this episode, get In Where You Fit

11:49

In , uh, because we wanna spend some time today

11:51

unpacking where that comes

11:53

from, this need to feel needed and how

11:55

you can mm-hmm . <affirmative> kind of navigate that. But

11:57

, um, I totally wholeheartedly agree

11:59

with this idea that there is a , a fulfillment,

12:02

right, right. That we get that

12:04

comes from wanting to be significant. Right?

12:06

Right. Uh, even if it's just to one person, right.

12:09

And then, you know, in feeling

12:11

that desire to be significant to just one

12:14

person or several, then obviously we wanna

12:16

feel appreciated, feel valued , uh,

12:18

for what it is that we bring. And so we always start

12:20

the sibling sound off segment , uh,

12:22

from our perspective as siblings. And so,

12:25

yeah . Yeah . You know, I really can

12:27

only truly speak from,

12:29

you know, the baby, from the youngest

12:31

sibling. Sure . And I certainly wanna kick it to you, bro, bro,

12:34

to unpack the oldest perspective. But

12:36

I'm gonna just be frank, you guys, I

12:39

absolutely never felt

12:42

<laugh> that I I , that I

12:44

was needed in my family

12:47

<laugh> . And lemme be clear, I was very happy

12:49

about that. Right? I always

12:52

recognized as the baby and the baby girl

12:55

in our four , you know, four person home that

12:57

I was the needy one. And yes, some

12:59

people may call that spoiled <laugh> . Some people may

13:02

call that , uh, I don't know . We'll get to, you

13:04

know, the notions of codependency and things like that.

13:07

But I was actually happy. Like you think about

13:09

it, we all had to do chores, right? Well,

13:11

maybe dad didn't, but me and you and mom did

13:14

chores growing up. Yeah . Yeah. But I never

13:16

once thought, Hmm , if

13:19

I don't do these dishes, oh, the family will

13:21

fall apart. Oh , look

13:24

, this , if I don't do this , you know , take

13:26

out the track . If I don't do these things right

13:28

, uh, everything is going to fall into

13:30

calamity. No, I understood that. I, and I'm

13:32

gonna really kind of emphasize this for the, for

13:34

the youngest sibling, it's a , it's

13:37

a, I get to rather than have

13:39

to Sure. Right. I get to do this

13:41

rather than have to, and that was always really special

13:43

to me because it really started to

13:45

shape my mindset good and bad, <laugh>

13:47

. Right , right . Which we'll talk about. But I

13:49

think, and I did some research on younger siblings in

13:52

terms of how we contribute to families and, and

13:54

how we feel about where we're needed.

13:57

Research shows that the youngest baby siblings

13:59

often sought out fun experiences

14:02

more than maybe the older or the middle child.

14:04

Sure , sure . Because we understood we were

14:06

the needy ones. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> , uh, we understood

14:09

that when we came into, you know, this life,

14:11

our mindset was not about, oh,

14:13

they need me. It was like, no, you've already

14:15

laid out this land and

14:18

everything that's here. You've already created a

14:20

brand for the family, and I

14:22

get to partake in all of it. Right, right, right.

14:24

So my mindset <laugh> as a younger sibling

14:26

was, what's mine is mine, and

14:28

what's yours is mine. Yeah . Because we've already laid

14:30

, laid out . That's exactly how I felt. Right. <laugh> , I

14:33

was never once concerned about my

14:36

needs being met. Right . It didn't even exist.

14:38

They were always met. I didn't question

14:41

it. And obviously we're talking about being blessed

14:43

to be raised in a healthy home. Not perfect, obviously,

14:45

but healthy where things were in place.

14:47

But so when I was unpacking

14:49

my perspective as a younger sibling

14:52

in terms of the need to feel needed, that

14:54

dre that didn't even hit me Right. Until I was an

14:57

adult. Right . Like, it didn't become a reality for me until

14:59

I was out of the house. Right. Which is an

15:01

important thing to, to start

15:03

to learn. And obviously your parents will, will guide

15:05

you. They try to make sure you're not spoiled. Try

15:07

to help you learn maturity and we'll , we'll

15:09

get into that. But it was very much

15:12

my experience of I

15:14

get to contribute. I don't have

15:16

to. Right. It was very much my

15:18

experience that everything that my family has

15:21

is mine. And I actually can even lean into

15:23

what's mine is mine. And more than likely, because

15:25

I'm the baby, because I'm the youngest, no one's

15:28

gonna say, oh no, you , you know, you have

15:30

to share that per se, or you have to contribute,

15:32

because if you don't, the family's gonna fall

15:34

apart. And so, when I think about this question

15:36

is , you know, as siblings, do we understand

15:39

that we're needed? And I wanna hear

15:41

from our listeners. For me, as the

15:43

youngest, no, I did not understand

15:46

<laugh> or ever feel like I was needed

15:48

for the strength of the family until I became

15:50

an adult, or until I moved out of the household and

15:53

started learning, you know, more of the, the nuances

15:55

of life. And so I just

15:57

didn't feel it. I didn't feel it. I was protected.

16:00

I was spoiled. I did never , I never felt

16:02

like I needed to, you know , contribute

16:04

by, by necessity. It

16:06

was more about, you're part of it, you're the baby, we're

16:09

gonna undergird you. And so I

16:11

love that space and it definitely

16:13

, uh, put me into an environment of independence

16:16

that I'll definitely unpack more, but I wanna kick

16:18

it to you , uh, just to see your thoughts

16:20

on just the subject for today from the

16:22

sibling perspective. Certainly you as an older brother,

16:24

you know, what are your thoughts as we dig into this?

16:28

I'm over here shaking my head and <laugh>

16:31

and , and angst <laugh> . The

16:35

audacity <laugh> . Right . Of

16:38

every , of everything you just said, the , the

16:40

audacity of ,

16:42

And listen, and younger siblings let us know

16:44

if that was your experience. 'cause I, I think it was

16:47

for a lot

16:47

Of this . No ,

16:47

It's ,

16:47

But I wanna hear back . No , go ahead, bro . Bro , it's, it's

16:50

the experience of every younger sibling. And

16:52

that's, and that's <laugh> . This

16:55

is a PG show . Okay . That's , that's

16:57

bull Man . I'm tell

17:00

you . No , that's , that's , and I

17:02

know that's how you felt. Uh mm-hmm . <affirmative> . I'm

17:04

not, not, I didn't , I didn't know it in real time. Sure.

17:07

But you know, if I, I've laid

17:09

out the groundwork. So all you gotta do is

17:11

just simply partake in the fruit of all

17:14

the labor I had to have. And do not,

17:16

not only because I was there before you, but

17:19

because mm-hmm . <affirmative> , I was a freaking trial run. Mom

17:21

and dad didn't understand how to, what,

17:24

what, what children were needed for.

17:26

And they also didn't know , understand how to

17:29

make children feel needed in a healthy way.

17:31

So I'm the trial run. So,

17:33

so do I understand what you know,

17:35

that I needed? Sure. But I understand

17:37

it through being rejected first. I

17:40

understand it through being rejected

17:43

on so many levels. Like I

17:45

understand it through like, well, why I gotta do

17:47

all this? How come Nikki can't do it? Rejection?

17:50

Nope . Because I said, so she's the baby . She's

17:53

delicate. Well , why does she always have to come with me?

17:55

Why can't I go be independent by myself?

17:58

Rejected. Like, I, so I understand

18:00

being needed through being rejected

18:02

of the things I actually wanted Yeah . To do

18:04

in life. I , and , and , and , and , and see

18:07

for you. Yeah. You know,

18:09

I , I'm hearing how you ingested

18:11

that on a mental level. And I'm shaking my

18:14

head because what I ingested

18:16

was social pain. Andre, why

18:18

your sister always gotta come with us. Social

18:20

pain. Andre, why you can't come out? Why

18:22

you gotta babysit your sister? Social pain

18:26

? Like , I dunno , like,

18:28

I'd like No, no, I'm needed wrong.

18:31

Like, this isn't what I wanna be needed for

18:34

<laugh> , you were needy. I

18:36

was. And all of

18:38

it was wrong. All of it was wrong. There's

18:40

no part of this that was this , it runs a gamut. This

18:43

we're talking about emotional pain

18:46

that went psychological, emotional damage

18:48

and physical. Right . Emotional damage. Damage.

18:51

Right. <laugh> , because No,

18:54

no . Okay. You , you processed it different.

18:56

Look at how you processed it . Like everything was

18:59

laid out for you. It was great. It was you,

19:02

were you , I said, what's mine is mine. What

19:04

you want is mine. That's exactly how I was

19:06

treated. Not just from you, but

19:08

from even a parental standpoint.

19:10

Yeah . It was No, Andre, you

19:13

gotta share that. That ain't just for you. But

19:15

she didn't put in on this. Like , she didn't do work

19:18

on this . I could be out with my boys.

19:21

Y'all made me be here . Y'all

19:24

just , no , no . You

19:27

know , it's , it's crazy because, you know,

19:29

I'm looking at this and I'm

19:31

saying to myself, well , wait a minute, <laugh>

19:33

, I did, I

19:35

, I laid this beautiful

19:38

path and I didn't mean

19:40

to lay it. I was forced to lay it. Right

19:42

. Just living late . Right . <laugh> laid

19:44

this beautiful path. And,

19:46

and what I came out with is, Andre,

19:49

we need you to do this. So I've got

19:51

a definition of being needed that's

19:53

clearly different from your definition of

19:55

being needed . It's huge . And

19:58

, and it also mm-hmm . <affirmative> , we'll , I'll unpack this in

20:00

a second. Um, what

20:02

I had to learn is how to shift from

20:05

being needed to saying,

20:08

I belong , which is two different things.

20:11

Ooh . Wow. That's good. You walked

20:13

in saying, I belong . Mm-hmm.

20:16

<affirmative> , you didn't have to go through the

20:19

needed and, and see. And

20:21

if I can just give a difference mm-hmm

20:24

. <affirmative> , when people don't understand

20:26

needed versus being, feeling

20:29

belong when you feel, when

20:31

you feel needed, the flip side

20:33

of that is when you don't feel

20:36

like you're getting your needs met . Mm-hmm

20:39

. <affirmative> , it can be detrimental. Mm-hmm . <affirmative> mm-hmm . <affirmative>

20:41

. So that's why you're able to say, no , I

20:43

had a beautiful life . They weren't perfect , but I had

20:45

everything I needed because I

20:47

had to go through what the, the

20:50

process of understanding of Yeah.

20:52

Uh, I know what it feels like to be needed

20:55

now. I just wanna belong. I

20:57

don't wanna feel needed because then if

21:00

I don't get my needs met, met,

21:02

yeah. Uhhuh , then I become, I

21:06

think it's like a psychologists call it wallflower syndrome.

21:10

What , what I mean is, is Yeah . Is is now

21:12

I'm that person at the dance

21:14

that's begging for somebody to

21:17

ask him to dance. And nobody does. So

21:19

I just stand on the wallflower, don't feel needed.

21:21

I , I become the last person picked

21:24

in the sports, in the basketball at the blacktop.

21:26

And, and , and that's what I'm known for. Dre always

21:29

picked last. Nobody really wants him . Right . Right

21:31

. <laugh> So, so, so, but, but,

21:33

but when you shift and

21:35

you're able , and again, we'll unpack this later, but

21:37

when you shift mm-hmm . Then you're saying to yourself, okay,

21:40

no, no, no, I'm gonna get in. Where I

21:42

fit in when I'm, when I get to the point

21:44

of understanding is, is no, I wasn't needed.

21:47

I belong . And I, and , and Yeah . And

21:49

it's the way I belonged that

21:51

allowed me to say, this feels good

21:53

to be here now. This, this feels

21:55

good to be, so I didn't experience what

21:58

you felt coming up mm-hmm.

22:00

<affirmative> until an adult. Right.

22:03

And then I had to be able to say, okay, I have

22:05

all these tangible , uh, transient

22:08

skills and, and ethic

22:10

that I learned in the home, but

22:13

I don't know why. But now that

22:15

I'm out here in the real world by myself, I

22:17

remember when, when Kaylin and I first

22:19

moved all the way across the world to

22:21

Tallahassee to go to Florida State mm-hmm

22:23

. <affirmative> , we belonged . We

22:25

felt like we belonged for the first time

22:28

because it wasn't a chore anywhere

22:30

anymore. It was Right . No, no. This is

22:32

just kind of who we are . Get to , you know. Right . Get

22:34

to choose . We have the privilege of running

22:37

our apartment any the

22:39

way we wanna run it, and not just

22:41

the way we wanna run it. Kaylin

22:43

was good at this. I was good at

22:45

that. Mm-hmm . <affirmative> . Mm-hmm . <affirmative> . And so we felt like

22:48

we belonged in the apartment together.

22:51

Um, ver versus feeling like I'm, I'm

22:53

needed. Because , you know, when you feel like

22:55

you're needed or if you understand being

22:57

needed, well, what happens when

23:00

they don't no longer need you? Mm-hmm.

23:02

<affirmative> , teach , teach , teach them . But when you feel like

23:04

you belong, that doesn't end. Mm-hmm

23:07

. <affirmative> , that doesn't end at all. Um , what

23:10

what might end is the duties of being of you

23:12

belong. But, but , uh,

23:14

the , the feeling of belonging

23:16

never ends. And so that's

23:19

what I'm hearing you talk about it. Yeah . That , that

23:21

was where I was at <laugh> . That's what I was feeling

23:24

in . And , and because , 'cause think of it, think

23:26

of, think of it as , so for the older sibling

23:29

mm-hmm . <affirmative> , we're not just needed.

23:32

We're needed, but we're fighting for

23:34

independence as well . Yes

23:36

. That's it . That's right . Word . So

23:38

, so while Yeah . Mom is saying , I need you

23:41

to do this , I need you to do that . I don't

23:43

ever , I don't reach the needy , like

23:45

the spoiled. Right . I , like, I never felt that I

23:48

didn't reach the needy what I was, I

23:50

need you to do that , need that . And I'm saying, but I'm

23:52

trying to get out this house because I'm

23:54

trying to be independent <laugh> . Yeah. And

23:56

, and as long as I'm in this

23:58

place, I can't meet milestones. Like

24:01

there's, there's nothing more of a milestone

24:04

for me to be able to come back to the

24:06

home and say to Nikki

24:08

, yeah, we was out balling and

24:10

we did this, this , this independence of

24:12

parenthood mm-hmm . <affirmative> mm-hmm

24:14

. <affirmative> , um, that , that I can't reach as long as I

24:17

am needed versus if

24:19

I were the younger sibling and

24:22

I'm needy. Mm-hmm . <affirmative> what feels like spoiled, then

24:24

<laugh> , then I don't, I don't feel the

24:26

need to break away an independence

24:29

because I feel like I'm in this path

24:31

where I belong. So

24:33

I think there's , there's so many different , there's

24:36

so many different angles to that being

24:38

the older sibling and the younger saying,

24:40

and what I'm most interested in mm-hmm . For those of you

24:42

listening is what do you , what, what do you feel if

24:44

you're the middle child?

24:46

That's exactly what I had . Yes.

24:48

Yes . What , what , what is that? Because that, that experience

24:50

mm-hmm . <affirmative> , I actually, you know, I actually don't, I don't dunno

24:52

. You

24:53

Don't , yeah. We don't know it . Yeah . I don't know .

24:54

I was too busy trying to wiggle my way out of being

24:56

needed. I was too busy trying

24:58

to get through just kind of again, that, that natural

25:00

development struggle as an adolescence.

25:03

Mm-hmm . <affirmative> where , you know, the family is depending

25:05

on me, but I'm trying to get my independence

25:08

and, and, and I'm , I'm trying to rely

25:10

on friends more than I am on my parents.

25:13

And, and , but there's a , but there's also a detriment

25:16

to that as well. Uh , now that I

25:18

think about it, because that detriment is, is

25:20

I know what , well , mom and dad, well, I'm

25:23

the trial run as the child. Right?

25:25

Right . They say , well, first time first,

25:28

right. So I know you're mm-hmm . <affirmative> , you're being pulled

25:30

by your friend , but I still need to give you guidance

25:32

even outside this house. So even

25:34

that mm-hmm . <affirmative> . So part of the feeling

25:37

needed versus feeling belong

25:39

was , was mom and dad saying, I'm not

25:41

ready to just release you carte blanche

25:44

to your friends because they can't guide you. Right

25:46

. They're still trying to get their independence too.

25:48

Whereas when you come along

25:51

and say , okay, well we screwed up this with Andre. We

25:53

ain't gonna do this <laugh> . Like , we

25:55

, we messed up with this way with re <laugh>

25:58

this with Nicki . You know, they're looking at

26:00

all the thing I'm the , I'm , I'm the walking

26:03

litmus test, and I'm just the

26:06

three of y'all huddling on the side. Like Yeah . You

26:08

see the way he walked . That's , we can't let Nick walk that way. You

26:10

, you gotta change that . What he look Yeah

26:13

. We can't let it , you know, so it's, it's

26:15

, it , it really is this , uh,

26:17

so I'm not just needed in what I do, I'm

26:19

needed so that mom and dad can learn how to

26:22

do better with you. And that sucked too

26:24

. That absolutely sucked .

26:25

And I imagine most older children probably

26:28

share that sentiment to some extent

26:30

too. So .

26:32

Yeah . Heck yeah. I

26:33

Had , so I had the same, the same notes in terms

26:35

of that question for middle children. And please, we

26:38

do, we definitely want you guys to, to let

26:40

us know, 'cause we're take , taking this from our perspective

26:42

and our experience, but curious if you're

26:44

a middle child, because you think about the older child

26:46

, uh, often directly

26:49

or indirectly takes on responsibility

26:51

for also modeling, you know, the brand

26:53

of the family, whether you want to or not to

26:56

your younger siblings. And so mm-hmm . Sometimes

26:58

there's perfectionism that sits , that sets in

27:00

because you're, you know, you're trying to do

27:02

what your parents said, trying to, you

27:05

know, help the younger child, you know, rear

27:07

differently. And you get , kind of get forced into

27:09

that position. Um, and other times, like

27:11

you said, you're trying to find ways to, to get the responsibility

27:14

outta the way so you can move on to your own independence. Hmm

27:16

. And certainly for the youngest child, that babysitting

27:19

mindset or, you know, kind of coddling or

27:21

everything is there. But I agree that middle child might

27:24

feel very much lost in translation. Yeah.

27:26

Absolutely. Feel like they can't figure out the, you

27:29

know, how to navigate the family dynamics

27:31

, uh, because they don't necessarily take on

27:33

the responsibility of the older children. And

27:35

obviously they're not getting the attention of

27:37

the babying, per se, of the youngest. And so I

27:40

definitely would like to, to hear from that. But

27:42

I think the thing that you, you said that really struck

27:44

me, because we'll talk about this as we get to the savage

27:46

segment, is this notion of

27:48

, uh, transition in

27:51

it mm-hmm . Mm-hmm. <affirmative> . Yeah . So where for you it

27:53

was like you said , um, seeking

27:55

to belong as you got out

27:57

into your freedom and adulthood. Right.

28:00

Um, uh, for me, it, I

28:02

had to learn the role of, you

28:04

know, needing to be needed as I got into

28:07

adulthood. Yeah . So then I started navigating that.

28:09

And I think for you, you started protecting

28:11

independence, which I was absolutely doing that early

28:13

on. Right. Uh , because of my status.

28:16

And so yes, it feels like that,

28:19

you know, the, the innate, you know, desire

28:21

, uh, to , to need to be, to

28:23

feel needed , uh, puts

28:26

us in transitions, puts us in spaces throughout

28:28

life where we kind of toggle between or

28:30

pinging pong between, or just kind of flow between

28:33

that based on where we are in our life. And

28:35

I think, I think that's kind of why it's so important

28:38

, uh, to recognize it. Yeah . To spend

28:40

time thinking about it because of different seasons.

28:42

You're gonna have to contend with it. I was

28:44

thinking about our grandfather mm-hmm

28:46

. <affirmative> , um, and this goes, you know, beyond the dynamics

28:48

of siblings, but still speaks to how

28:51

family deals with the need to

28:53

feel needed , um, in different, you

28:55

know, just different iterations in life. And I

28:57

remember when he was , um, close

29:00

to, to dying. Oh yeah . You know,

29:02

he had been sick a few times , uh, in

29:04

and out, and we've talked about our grandfather a lot on the podcast

29:06

and probably will continue to do so. 'cause he was just such a

29:08

dope human being. Absolutely. Was . Uh , but

29:11

so he took pride. Like

29:13

grandpa loved being

29:16

the provider. He did the

29:18

protector. He absolutely , you know, giving of

29:21

identity. And I mean, and you could speak to this too, bro,

29:23

bro , you know, having a wife and , and a daughter. He, you

29:26

know, he lost his, his son at a young

29:28

age. And , uh, I think that one other little girl, one

29:30

other mm-hmm. <affirmative> , uh, passed away. But,

29:32

so, you know, I imagine as a man

29:34

that's even more heightened when

29:37

you have a wife and a daughter. Like two beautiful

29:39

Sure thing . Sure . Girls , women to take care of. And

29:42

so when mom was talking to me about the last

29:44

couple of months , you know, let's say weeks,

29:46

months in his life, 'cause he

29:48

was, you know, he took pride in, you know, obviously working,

29:51

taking care of home, providing the house, et

29:53

cetera. And then when it got to where he retired, you know, I

29:55

watched Grandpa take pride in washing clothes. Mm-hmm.

29:58

<affirmative> cooking the meals and <laugh> , you know, fixing

30:00

things around the house. And then even when

30:02

it got to where he was on a walker and things like that, he

30:04

still took pride in, you know, making the

30:07

meals and pushing it on his walker to my grandma.

30:09

Yeah . <laugh> . Yeah . And setting it next to her. And

30:11

that might be the two things he did all day, but he would

30:13

still do it. Which speaks to , um,

30:16

I definitely think there's seasons of our life where

30:19

not only do we value the need to, to

30:21

be needed, but it really becomes a

30:24

key part of our identity. Yeah, absolutely.

30:26

Because I think about it with our mom, I think we could all probably

30:28

agree grandparents very much , uh,

30:31

get into that space where they're like, I I love being

30:33

here to support my children, my

30:35

grandchildren, my great grands . I

30:37

, as matter of fact, I heard , uh, Kareem Abdu, Abdul-Jabbar

30:40

talking about the last, you know, several

30:42

years of his life, how much he's enjoyed being around

30:44

his grandkids and great grandkids. Yeah . I read

30:46

that. I read that. And he's like, you need to tell me I can lay

30:48

down and play Legos with them rather than go

30:51

do a sports interview. Like , right . Like, I'm good.

30:53

Like this season of my life, I

30:55

, I thank my career, my basketball career.

30:58

I thank all those beautiful things, but now I can

31:00

just play Legos. Like, let's go. Right.

31:02

That's a need to feel needed, right? Yeah.

31:04

Yeah. And so I think we start to learn in

31:06

different seasons why it's so important to recognize

31:08

it , uh, because it will fulfill you. And so, you

31:11

know, with Grandpa Dangerfield, that very much was

31:13

that season of his life. And so when it came down

31:15

to the point to where he got sick

31:17

and had been hospitalized, and at

31:20

the initial mindset, the way mom described

31:22

it was, at first they were kind of like, okay, what

31:25

do we need to do medically so we can just get him home?

31:28

Mm-hmm . <affirmative> . And so, you know , they're figuring out medication,

31:30

different options. And so

31:33

she described those days. She would go to

31:35

the hospital every day . Mom went to see , to

31:37

see grandpa, and they would play Chinese

31:39

checkers and cards. Yeah . Yeah . It

31:41

was still fairly positive. 'cause the, the focus was,

31:43

you know, what do we need to do to get you back home? The

31:46

unfortunate side of that is once they realized there

31:48

was nothing medically that could be done, and

31:50

I , you know, grandpa was like, I think 92,

31:52

93 when he passed away, so , you know, good years mm-hmm

31:55

. <affirmative> . And they realized , okay, no , this season

31:57

of his life is, is coming to an end.

32:00

Mom told me the shift in

32:03

his focus, uhhuh , which, which

32:05

Dre speaks to exactly what we're talking about in

32:08

this podcast. He immediately

32:10

understood. And I mean, she said he cried and

32:12

she remembers the , the moment where he just kind

32:14

of went into prayer with God. And I , I

32:17

totally believe they had their conversation where

32:19

God said, son, you've run your race. It's

32:21

time for you to come on home. Mm-hmm . And gave

32:23

him, you know, the opportunity to

32:25

have , uh, the last couple of, you know, day

32:28

, maybe weeks or so, to

32:30

really pour into our mom to

32:32

help her understand now that it's

32:34

time for me to go on and

32:37

my journey has ended where, you know, my

32:39

ability to take care of the needs is now

32:41

gonna transfer to you because you're

32:43

gonna have to step in and take care of your mother.

32:46

Mom said that he spent like an

32:48

entire afternoon, literally

32:51

just going through, creating like a checklist.

32:54

And when I tell you it was a checklist of emotional

32:56

needs for grandma and emotional needs

32:58

for her and financial

33:01

needs and physical needs Yeah.

33:03

And running it down because he had

33:05

been that person. Yes . Yes . That

33:08

understood. I have to be the

33:10

need to be, I have to be okay, you know, being needed

33:12

for my daughter, who's a grown woman who can

33:14

take care of herself, but I'm still there . Right

33:16

. And for my wife. And so she

33:18

said it got serious, and it was really hard, obviously, to,

33:20

to kind of go through that with your dad and , and

33:22

see that, you know, his, his life is coming to

33:25

, uh, closure. And she

33:27

said that Dre, after he had that

33:29

conversation with her, that

33:31

then he, he just got quiet. And

33:33

she said he really never talked much more after

33:36

that, even though I think he lived for another

33:38

week or two. Yeah. Um, but

33:40

he understood he was passing the mantle on, he

33:42

was passing the torch on. And

33:45

I think probably part of it too is it's probably very difficult

33:48

when you've been used to being that person that

33:50

understands that the need to be needed,

33:52

and you realize you can no longer be that. 'cause

33:54

he wasn't able to walk anymore, or even on

33:56

a walker. He wasn't able to get outta

33:58

the bed. And , um, and

34:01

then she, she even described it as a very , uh, I

34:03

don't know if the right word is stoic, but just a strength that

34:05

came through him that after he had

34:07

that, that moment with God and cried, she

34:09

said he never cried again. That he

34:12

was rested . Mm-hmm . He was at peace after . Yeah

34:14

. And he said to her, and she said, when she came into

34:16

the hospital that day, when he really kind of poured

34:18

into her all of the things , uh,

34:20

she said she'd never seen him more serious because

34:23

she came in with , with the UNO cards and the

34:25

Chinese checkers. It was like , you ready to take this

34:27

whooping? He was like, Nope, we got , we got business.

34:30

That's

34:30

What we're doing right

34:30

Now . We got business . Yep .

34:31

We got family

34:32

Business. Um, and I believe that it was

34:34

very fulfilling for him to be, you

34:37

know, the an , you know, to be able to,

34:39

to step in and be what they needed. And

34:41

so I feel like we all get an

34:44

experience with that, sometimes more than once

34:46

throughout our life journey. And so just really

34:49

understanding how you feel about the need to be needed

34:51

and making sure it's healthy, but then

34:53

also recognizing when you need help. I

34:55

think that's what we're gonna unpack from there. But I'll kick it

34:57

back to you before we get to the sponsorship. Well,

34:59

No, I, I , I think through that

35:02

story, you know, you, you, everyone

35:04

can get a better understanding

35:08

of , uh, or at least a better consideration

35:11

if they're needed when you just

35:13

kind of think about , uh, those

35:15

kind of important people in your life, whether they're

35:17

family mm-hmm . <affirmative> or friends mm-hmm . <affirmative> , uh,

35:19

significant other members of your community,

35:22

even your job. And as you kind of thinking

35:25

about them kind of reflecting on how

35:27

much they actually kind

35:29

of care about you , um, how

35:32

much, how much they internalize

35:35

your interests , like the things that you're interested

35:37

in in life , um, things like how

35:39

much they , uh, would sacrifice

35:42

for you and emotional sacrifice. Mm-hmm

35:44

. Mental, not just financial or physical,

35:46

but just, you know, all these different layers of

35:48

, of sacrifice, how much they respect you, how

35:51

much they admire you. You know , when you

35:53

, when you're feeling all

35:55

of that, and you see that value sense,

35:58

that value in all of those areas, then

36:01

the thing about being needed is now

36:03

showing you just this positive psychological

36:06

, uh, life existence

36:08

wellbeing. Right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> . So

36:11

, so this is the good , you know , feeling needed is

36:13

not a , you know, doesn't always have to

36:15

be a bad thing. I think sometimes

36:18

people feel like when they, when

36:20

they're always needed in a certain way,

36:22

it's a bad thing. But sometimes feeling needed is

36:25

a good thing. So don't , it's a good thing. We don't , we don't

36:27

wanna misconstrue, conflate, we don't wanna mm-hmm . <affirmative>

36:29

confuse what you're being requested

36:33

of as they're just trying

36:35

to walk over you or drain you. Yeah . Sometimes,

36:38

yeah . It's coming from a space that's

36:40

deeper than what you're seeing or

36:42

what you're hearing or what you're feeling.

36:44

It's coming from a , a place that's actually

36:47

showing, no, there's an actual psychological wellbeing

36:50

of this person's need for you. But

36:53

again, the flip side of that is, if

36:55

you did that same reflection and

36:58

you feel slightly depressed,

37:01

or you feel slightly disconnected, <laugh>

37:03

, or you feeling , you know, the opposite

37:06

of , of good, then chances

37:08

are your , your relational value,

37:11

whether it's your expectations, your

37:13

needs that are being unmet, what you're

37:15

feeling in terms of what you deserve , uh,

37:17

is low. And, and I , and , and

37:19

, and the , the idea there

37:21

is to have a high relational value,

37:24

because the higher my relational

37:26

value, the more healthy the need

37:28

is. In fact, the higher

37:31

the relational value, the more you actually

37:33

translate from feeling needed to

37:35

feeling like you belong. And that's

37:37

ultimately where you wanna get to , is feeling like you belong,

37:40

not just needed . Needed is probably a, a

37:43

great pivot point, because either you're

37:45

either rejected, needed, or

37:47

which we're looking for in relationships is a high enough

37:50

relational value that you feel like you belong

37:52

here. Uh , what I , yes,

37:54

people need what I bring to the table, but

37:56

the overarching feeling is, but

37:59

I belong and that's why I'm needed.

38:02

And then that's ultimately kind of what we, we

38:04

wanna , we wanna go to. So yeah, that

38:06

story about , um, grandpa, it

38:09

it , if you notice , it even shifted mom

38:12

from being needed to belong. Yes . Right.

38:14

Because when he says, I'm passing the torch to

38:16

you. Mm-hmm . Why , why didn't I

38:18

pass it to hospice? Why didn't I pass

38:21

it to a nursing home? Mm-hmm . <affirmative> , because

38:23

grandma doesn't belong there. Ooh

38:26

. Teach program . And you don't belong there as a visitor

38:29

teach program , right ? No . We're

38:31

putting two people together , because they'll

38:35

be honest with you. Okay . Uh , you, I remember

38:37

dad saying, we put this in a podcast last

38:39

season. I remember dad

38:41

saying to you, I believe after

38:44

mom and dad had separated, that

38:47

mom had to go back to date because

38:50

she needs to be with family

38:52

. Whereas dad

38:54

is like, now I'm gonna stay here in the dub K because

38:57

I don't need none of y'all <laugh> . Like , I

39:00

belong by myself, <laugh> . So

39:02

, you know what I mean? And that's okay, because

39:05

he knows where he belongs . Because I'm like , dad,

39:07

I , I'm like , dad , I said

39:09

, I , I can , I can

39:11

live in San Diego by myself.

39:14

Uh, you know, I don't, I don't have to

39:16

be with fa I , I , you know, I, I

39:18

definitely belong you value.

39:20

Sure. Yeah .

39:21

I value family. Yeah . Yeah . I belong

39:24

as my mama's son, my dad's son,

39:26

my sister's brother . Mm-hmm . I belong there,

39:29

but I don't need to be

39:31

in their physical space. And , and

39:33

see that's, that's the shift when

39:35

you have a healthy situation

39:38

where you're needed mm-hmm . <affirmative> a healthy

39:40

one . Belonging is that area where

39:43

you get in , where you fit in is

39:45

that area where you're not getting in, where you fit in , you're

39:47

forced to be there . And we don't wanna feel that

39:50

way. We definitely don't wanna feel that

39:52

way. So, yeah. That's , uh, I know we're getting ready

39:54

to go into the sponsorship. Uh, uh,

39:57

shout , shout out . But yeah, I love that story about

39:59

grandpa , um, yeah . Shifting and

40:01

, and saying, now you know, Lois, because

40:04

he didn't call it Delo. Lois. You're right . You

40:07

, you're , you're , you're, you're no

40:09

longer needed. You belong right now. You

40:11

Absolutely. That's so good . And , and what's crazy, Nikki , I

40:14

know we gotta do sponsor, but what's crazy, Nikki , is I

40:17

heard a shift in mom's conversation

40:19

about being whole

40:22

Hundred percent right? Yep .

40:23

Before, before this

40:26

moment in , in mom's life mm-hmm

40:28

. <affirmative> , I definitely felt like

40:31

mom was a caretaker. Like

40:34

I moved back home to be a caretaker.

40:37

Yeah .

40:38

Yes ,

40:38

Yes . But after this moment, I

40:40

heard the words of a daughter. And I

40:42

think that's so different. So

40:45

different. And, and that's

40:48

such a different , and , and that's the thing, when

40:50

mom was making her transition from Dayton

40:52

to la prior to that transition,

40:55

Nikki , you , we were, we were talking as caretakers,

40:58

Caretakers, percent . But after

41:00

We had that conversation with mom at the park

41:03

mm-hmm . <affirmative> mm-hmm . We were talking as,

41:06

as her children. And that's such

41:08

a different stance. Agreed. Agreed . That's

41:10

such a different stance. One is needed.

41:13

The other is, no , ma , you belong here

41:16

with Nicki . With Nikki , not with Andre, but

41:18

you belong here. See how he does

41:20

Me in this

41:21

Region

41:22

Temporarily. <laugh> , I

41:24

keep saying I'm gonna drop her out . <laugh> . Speaking

41:28

of belonging , uh, let's shout out

41:30

our sponsor for this episode . None

41:33

other than S two MediaWorks, a media production

41:36

company co-founded my , by my brother and

41:38

I, and our focus is we're creating

41:40

content to educate, empower, inspire,

41:43

and encourage positive living and

41:45

influence through original narratives.

41:47

We love telling stories. We love sharing our journey.

41:50

We love sharing our scars. Right? Like

41:52

it's all part of growth, and it helps us, and

41:55

hopefully it's helping you . Our mission at S

41:57

two Media Works is to provide transformational

41:59

education, hopefully resources

42:02

that are gonna promote healthy and productive

42:04

living through creative storytelling. And , um,

42:06

we're dedicated to doing that each and every day.

42:09

The Savage Siblings podcast is

42:11

a product of SS two media , uh, our

42:13

lineup, and we have so many other projects

42:16

that we have in the canon that we can't wait

42:18

to share with you. So, as always, thank you so

42:20

much for joining us for this episode.

42:23

And with that, bro , bro , you ready to get savage?

42:29

Yeah , definitely. Let's definitely get

42:32

Savage . So, as Nikki said , the

42:34

title of this episode is , is get in

42:37

Where You Fit In . And so as

42:39

we're just kind of looking at that notion

42:42

, you know, that , that need

42:44

to be needed, need to

42:46

understand your place with , you know, in

42:49

any particular dynamic, relational or

42:52

structural, whatever it might be. Mm-hmm . <affirmative>

42:54

, you know , one of the things that, that Nikki

42:56

already said, and I wanna unpack here for

42:58

just a moment, is that we really are created

43:01

for belonging where we're created to

43:04

be needed . And , and we're , we're , we

43:06

created it in that, in such a way that it's

43:08

not just about what you bring to the table, what

43:10

you do, it's really about who you're,

43:13

that makes difference as to whether or

43:15

not it's a healthy need or, or

43:17

an unhealthy need . So, like Nikki , if I said something

43:19

, if I said to you , uh, here's

43:21

an infant that's cuddling

43:25

and being protected by their mother.

43:28

Mm-hmm . <affirmative> , or I say to you, here's an adolescent girl

43:31

that's asked out on a date by a boy

43:33

who she had a crush, who she has a crush on.

43:36

Right . Or I say to you, here's this student athlete who's

43:39

carried being carried on the shoulders of his

43:41

teammates off the field because he just scored

43:44

the winning goal. Mm-hmm . Or if I say, here's

43:46

an employee that was fired

43:48

by his boss and receives

43:51

no calls or expressions of concern.

43:54

If all of those kind of bring out some

43:56

type of emotion, like most people, we're

43:59

gonna have some type of, of emotion

44:01

from these very brief descriptions of

44:03

what it is I'm talking about, what it , these scenarios

44:06

I brought out , whether it's empathy, or

44:08

whether it's hurt, or whether it's joy,

44:11

whatever it might be, whatever brief emotional

44:13

experience that that was just had

44:15

when I talked about these things, then

44:19

you're in the subject , or at least you have

44:21

the understanding of why we created

44:24

for relationship . Mm-hmm

44:26

. <affirmative> , here's my mm-hmm

44:31

. <affirmative> , who did you see as yourself?

44:33

So when I said the infant and the mother, who

44:36

did you see as yourself? The mother or

44:39

the infant? Or what did you see

44:41

of yourself? Did you see yourself showing up

44:43

as the one, you know , you're , you definitely

44:45

knew to cuddle or you , you knew how

44:47

to soothe the baby. Right? So,

44:49

so in all these scenarios, you end up kind of

44:51

seeing yourself as something

44:54

that's good . And here's the reason why. Um

44:56

, uh, here's the reason why when I say,

44:59

when we say, get in where you fit in, when

45:01

we say you, there's you , we

45:03

all have a need to be needed

45:05

because we were created for relationship.

45:08

We were created for belonging. Mm-hmm

45:10

. It's because we have this intuitive psychology.

45:14

And that intuitive psychology says,

45:16

I'm in a scenario, whether it's a relationship

45:18

or a institution, or

45:21

a system, I'm in this and

45:23

I'm valued my

45:25

relationship mm-hmm . To the scenario brings

45:28

value out of me. Mm-hmm

45:30

. <affirmative> . And when I, when, when, so when I look at my

45:33

value in any situation, that's

45:35

what helps me know, am I in a healthy

45:38

belonging or an unhealthy

45:40

needing ? And , and , and that's a struggle

45:43

for most people to Yes

45:45

. Uh , both understand and respond

45:48

to. And the reason I say struggle is

45:51

because if I'm in a healthy belonging,

45:54

then I, then , then the struggle might

45:56

not be there so much. But

45:58

the struggle shows itself when

46:01

we're struggling to be who we're authentically

46:05

because belonging requires authenticity.

46:07

Lemme just be me. And if I'm

46:10

just me in this situation and

46:12

I still fit really well, and I'm

46:14

still contributing, and I'm still pushing

46:16

forward the scenario of the situation, then

46:19

that's a healthy belonging. Some

46:21

people are in a belonging, but they

46:23

don't know who they're Right . And

46:25

they don't know , they don't know the value

46:28

of just being themselves. And so

46:30

that becomes into a , that ends up

46:32

being an unhealthy , uh, needing

46:35

. And then there are those on the flip side, that

46:37

they're only there because they just wanna feel needed

46:40

by somebody . Mm-hmm

46:42

. Mm-hmm . Needed by something, because

46:44

the majority of their experiences in life,

46:47

it's been rejection. Mm-hmm . It's

46:49

been ostracized. Mm-hmm . It's been,

46:51

you don't really belong here. You don't

46:53

fit in here. You don't look like

46:55

us. You don't act like us. And

46:58

so at the , you know , so , so they

47:00

don't have the relational value

47:03

that comes with needing with

47:06

a healthy belonging versus an

47:08

unhealthy needing. And so I say

47:10

it's a struggle because do people really

47:12

know their val their relational

47:15

value whenever they step onto a particular scene

47:17

, situation, scenario, circumstance,

47:19

whatever it may be, every room I walk in,

47:22

I know my relational value. Now, part

47:24

of it is because I can be highly egotistical

47:27

and I can be like , I don't <laugh> . So

47:30

that's a great portion of who I am , that

47:33

that helps me say . Right . That's important to know . I , I

47:35

know. But , but I also believe there is a

47:37

healthy balance between being

47:39

Yes . Being , knowing your value and independence,

47:42

and knowing your value independence, or

47:44

what I'm gonna call belonging, so

47:47

mm-hmm . <affirmative> , but there are a lot of people that walk into a room and

47:49

they're just uncertain. Yeah . They're just

47:51

absolutely uncertain of who

47:54

they're supposed to be here and

47:57

the and mm-hmm . And , and I , and , and that's why I say sometimes

47:59

it's a struggle just to be yourself. Like,

48:01

I don't ever wanna be in a situation or a room

48:04

or amongst company where I

48:06

can't just be me. Mm-hmm . <affirmative> , I

48:08

, I just can't just let me flow. And

48:10

sometimes for me, that's difficult to

48:13

overcome initially because most people know

48:16

me from Sunday morning. Yeah,

48:19

yeah . But I am not Sunday morning. No,

48:21

no, no , no. I'm complex . Yeah . No

48:24

, I'm , I'm definitely more complex. So,

48:26

so sometimes it's a struggle not for

48:28

me to be myself as much as it's for me to come

48:30

to be somebody, be like, <laugh> , listen, I

48:33

Yes, yes. I was coming out of

48:35

the book of Matthews this morning, but now I'm

48:37

coming outta this Pinot noir and I'm gonna be

48:39

all right . You gonna be all right ? Yes. I was coming

48:42

from the theological teachings of John

48:44

, but yes . Mm-hmm . Now I'm finna

48:46

come from the beverage teachings

48:48

of, of Bud Light, and I'm You gonna be

48:51

alright ? You gonna be alright ? Look , I'm

48:53

not saying pray for , pray for you gonna

48:55

be alright , <laugh> . You gonna be alright ? Because

48:58

listen, I belong at this sports

49:00

bar. I belong in this

49:02

movie theater <laugh> . I belong at

49:04

this amusement park I like , like these

49:06

, you know what I'm saying? So , so , so

49:08

for some people it's a struggle because you know

49:11

what? You're, you're , you're , you're carrying yourself

49:13

on the job one way. You're carrying yourself

49:15

in your home. Another way you carrying yourself

49:18

in church. Another way you carrying yourself on

49:20

the road another way. Mm-hmm . Who are

49:22

you? And see that, that kind of dilute

49:25

, that's goods your relational value. And

49:27

you may not ever get a sense of belonging

49:29

because you're just, you're morphing everywhere.

49:32

You go. Here, I need , that's so good to be

49:34

this here. I need to be that here.

49:36

I need to be this. No. Everywhere I

49:38

go, I belong here. Why? 'cause

49:41

I'm this, I belong here.

49:43

Why? 'cause I am this.

49:45

I don't ever say I need , I'm <laugh>

49:48

. I'm this, I'm, people

49:50

come up to Corin and Corey all the time, be

49:52

like , uh, you , your dad's crazy.

49:54

And they'll be like, yeah, why? Because I'm

49:56

crazy with them. <laugh> , I'm

49:59

crazy on the job. I'm crazy in the

50:01

church. I'm crazy with them . D I'm

50:04

crazy on the road . <laugh> , I'm , I'm crazy.

50:06

Grocery store . In the grocery store. I'm

50:08

crazy. It's just , that's so , so

50:10

, you know, because to me, that's

50:12

my relational value. That's

50:15

absolutely my relational value. People will tell

50:17

me on Sunday morning, you

50:19

, you just real when you up there, because I'm

50:22

not finna come up there speaking the Queen English

50:24

talking about these , and th <laugh>

50:27

coming up , thumb out . I done went through hell

50:29

yesterday, but thank God for God,

50:31

thank God for Jesus. Mm-hmm . <affirmative> <laugh> . I

50:34

almost cussed somebody out yesterday. But

50:36

thank God for the Holy Spirit. Right . Because

50:39

I'm just , and , and , and that's what I'm saying

50:42

on Friday, and

50:44

that's what I'm saying on Sunday. That's

50:46

what I'm saying on Wednesday night, and

50:49

that's what I'm saying on Sunday. Yeah . You know

50:51

, I'm like , I just, can you, can

50:53

you find , can you belong because you're

50:55

just being you. That's your

50:57

relational value. And that's why

51:00

people say, man, we need you

51:02

around. Why? Because you

51:04

just being yourself. That's , they

51:06

belong.

51:07

That's authentic. Ooh ,

51:08

That's good. Yeah. Yeah.

51:10

That's good. I love that. Um , and I co-sign

51:12

all of it. And the trouble is real. I think

51:14

when I was kind of processing

51:16

it, it's, it's what you say , it starts with you really

51:21

Analyzing yourself and understanding

51:23

who you are as you're now going through

51:25

life, where life is going to require , um,

51:28

that that kind of, I don't know if duality is

51:30

the word, but the both sides of the coin

51:32

of being needed and mm-hmm

51:34

. And then , you know, trying to also maintain your

51:37

independence. So I put, I labeled it the verse syndrome.

51:40

Yes. Um , and please, you guys don't, don't

51:42

come, don't come at me, y'all. I love verses

51:44

, I love verses like the next person, the millions

51:46

of people that love it. But I loved it as

51:49

it evolved to a space of you didn't

51:51

have to air, quote, choose a winner, because

51:53

I'm, I'm telling you, earth, wind and Fire and

51:55

Isley Brothers, they're, they're both equal , equally dope . That's

51:58

the best one in their own ways . Yeah . Right.

52:00

Yeah .

52:00

And so I think that same kind of, you

52:02

know, I'll say , uh, loose , uh, comparison

52:04

when we're kind of defining ourself . I mean, for

52:07

me, I never liked the pressure

52:09

of being needed. And that comes from me being

52:12

the , the youngest child. Mm-hmm . <affirmative> . Mm-hmm . <affirmative> that comes

52:14

from, you know , nature of being spoiled, things

52:16

like that. Because I felt like that pressure

52:19

was a threat to my independence, right? Yes.

52:21

Yeah. And so I was raised as an

52:23

independent young woman. So there's, there's layers, which

52:25

is what bro , bro was saying about the complexity of understanding

52:27

who you are as you delve into how

52:30

you're going to navigate the need to be needed

52:32

and the need to control. 'cause that's really the

52:34

thing. When we're kind of on the pro

52:37

independent side, what we're also saying is, I want to

52:40

build spaces that I own. 'cause

52:42

I wanna be able to control it, to control

52:44

my independence so that I can what, so

52:47

I can give it at will or I can protect

52:49

it at will. And so when

52:51

you're kind of navigating this versus space

52:54

of, I, I value my

52:56

independence. I value that space where

52:58

I can keep people out. Where I don't have to

53:00

say, oh, you need help. No, no, no, no. That's gonna take

53:02

something from my independence. Yeah . Yeah . That means I

53:04

gotta give you some of mine. Uh,

53:06

that versus syndrome says, Hey, you don't have

53:08

to choose. Life is not about choosing

53:11

that independence versus if you're going

53:13

to give and someone else's, you know, I'll call

53:15

it that vulnerability of needing versus if

53:17

you're gonna help somebody, you , you're gonna go

53:19

back and forth. And so you have to first really

53:21

get an understanding, like Andre just really presented

53:24

of who you are . Yeah. And be okay. Yeah

53:26

. You know, being that person that there's times where

53:29

your independence needs to be protected and

53:31

maybe you're not the answer to someone else's

53:34

need. And then there's times where no , you

53:36

need to step up and be , uh, uh,

53:38

you know, give and support and provide

53:40

some resources to someone else. I'll give you

53:42

a couple of examples. I was dating

53:44

this guy who lived in Sacramento and I , you know, I

53:46

was in LA and I would fly

53:49

out to visit him on certain weekends. And

53:51

so, you know, in my desire, you

53:54

know, <laugh> to be independent Uhhuh

53:56

, I would just, you know, go park

53:58

the car at the airport, fly out for the weekend

54:00

and come back. And you guys know that's

54:03

girl . There's a girls code 1 0 1, always

54:05

one of your girlfriends has to know where you're

54:07

going. Yeah. How long you going be

54:10

so just for your safety. Right. But

54:12

my desire to protect my air

54:14

quotes, independence. I foolishly was

54:17

making these trips without letting, and I

54:19

definitely wouldn't let family know. Yeah .

54:21

Because don't know nothing about this <laugh>.

54:24

I've been delivered set free . Right. And

54:26

so, but the one, one of the

54:28

weekend , uh, I'm flying back to LA and

54:31

um, somebody , uh, they, they jacked me. You

54:33

guys, they took my wallet. Uh , 'cause I would, I

54:35

would ride the little shuttle to go to the,

54:37

the parking ride I'd park . We had the , you

54:39

know, the cheapest rate for the weekend. Oh Lord

54:42

. And I get from in the shuttle, and

54:44

I know the guy that did it. But I, I foolishly

54:46

didn't realize until after he was gone that

54:48

he had got my wallet. Because when I was stepping into the van,

54:50

he was up close. And I turned and kind of looked at him like,

54:53

you Finn to catch these hands, <laugh> . And he immediately

54:55

saw, and this , this is how bad it was, y'all. He

54:57

saw that I was actually carrying, I had like a <laugh>

54:59

, this is gonna sound so bad. I had a devotional. <laugh>.

55:03

Oh Lord. I had a Bible devotional. I ,

55:04

Wait, wait , you took your Bible to your No , just

55:07

, no , you just leave it there. <laugh>

55:09

. Just leave it there a minute . Your

55:11

Game on how people boot . I

55:14

didn't say it was a booty call. It was not a booty

55:16

Call. You didn't have to say , it was not to

55:19

say , lemme

55:19

Be clear, it was not. None of that. None

55:21

of that stuff was

55:22

Going down . Don't buy, you don't even buy tickets from

55:24

cheap tickets . Call for a

55:26

Bible study, whatever.

55:29

I'm telling y'all , I was not that. Don't you believe my brother? But

55:31

here's how this guy got me y'all. Because he

55:33

was too close to me. And I looked at him and I, you

55:35

know, my brother taught me like I was about to give, you

55:38

know, put some hands on him. And he goes,

55:40

oh, is that a devotional? And

55:42

me and my foolish, you know,

55:45

Naive

55:45

Self .

55:45

I was like, yes, it's , and so

55:48

We're riding in the

55:49

Show . The devil knows Shutt . Read that

55:52

devotion though .

55:52

My wallet ,

55:54

Wallet . He , he could have done that all

55:56

day. He know You didn't open that. You didn't

55:58

crack that bible open. I didn't crack it . Yeah

56:01

. That's , I want , listen,

56:02

I want the record to reflect. None

56:04

of those trips were inappropriate in that the way my

56:07

brothers tried to apply. But anyway ,

56:10

The Lord

56:11

Story , the Lord knows Jesus

56:13

knows.

56:14

Oh , oh , he knows . He heard you <laugh>

56:16

. He heard your fry

56:19

<laugh> . So,

56:22

So this man had my wallet. I didn't know.

56:24

'cause we pull up to the parking garage, everybody

56:26

goes their separate ways. I get into my

56:28

car, I've got my ticket, and I'm like, where

56:30

is my wallet? Long story short, I

56:32

had to call my homegirl and was like, you're

56:35

gonna have to come and bring me. And they, you know, they

56:37

charge you the max at that time , that time, you

56:39

know , life , you had to pay the fool for the

56:41

day rate or whatever. If you couldn't find your

56:43

ticket, they maximize it. 'cause it's your fault that

56:45

you, you know, lost your wallet, whatever. So

56:48

it's like 1130 at night on a Sunday.

56:50

'cause I'm coming back on the weekend. So I'm pulling her outta

56:53

her bed. <laugh> , she's driving now

56:55

to the airport shuttle place to pick me up and

56:57

to pay <laugh> and to pay

57:00

for my ticket. Said that I gotta get

57:02

my stuff together. And so as she's,

57:04

you know, I get in my car and she stops and she hugs

57:06

me and she says, Anitra, <laugh> , move

57:09

forward. God forgives you. No,

57:12

she didn't do any of that. She's not judgmental like my brother. She

57:14

says, moving forward, she said, let's

57:16

just agree that when you're

57:19

gonna go to the airport, we're gonna plan it in advance,

57:22

<laugh> . And we're gonna , I'm gonna drop you off. Like

57:24

basically saying, in your kind

57:26

of protection of your independence,

57:28

you have shown your vulnerability. Right?

57:31

<laugh> , it's your need . Right? Oh God , God . Instead

57:33

of just purely dealing with it straight up, instead

57:35

of just saying, Hey, I'm going on a trip. This is where I'm gonna

57:37

be. Can you help me out? Can you drive? Can you drop me

57:39

off? And that becomes, again, that's

57:42

why it's a versus syndrome, right? We get

57:44

to these spaces where sometimes we're like, I

57:46

don't want to invite people into

57:49

my space because then I have to, what? I have to

57:51

show them my vulnerability, show

57:53

them my need. I'm protecting my

57:56

independence. And here's the thing, when you do that, you

57:58

get exposed anyway, because

58:00

I was Right. <laugh> , you get exposed anyway.

58:03

And now you also have to balance it out. Because

58:05

I obviously wanted to pay her back. She wasn't requiring

58:07

that. Ooh , thank God . But I had to do quite a bit to

58:09

kind of, and she's, that's the beauty of good friends. And

58:12

so it even brings me to another really short

58:14

story, but all about my independence,

58:17

you know, and my freedom versus the

58:19

need. When I first had , you

58:21

know, when, when Ralph and I, my ex-husband, we first had

58:23

our son Malachi, we were living

58:25

in a bachelorette apartment in Inglewood. And

58:27

if you guys don't know Bachelorettes are , uh, smaller

58:29

than studios. Yeah. I remember . Don't even

58:31

have remember . I remember it . Yeah. They don't even have kitchenettes.

58:34

They, they just have like the rest the

58:36

bathroom with the, you know, the tub and all that stuff. Little

58:39

side , little sink area. Mm-hmm . <affirmative> . And so they're really

58:41

made obviously not for, for families

58:43

or at least it can be a little bit more of a struggle to make a

58:45

family work in there. And bro , I kid

58:47

you not that for , so I had Kai , I was

58:50

on maternity leave before I went back to my

58:52

job. And for months, all

58:54

the people at my job , uh, family,

58:56

friends were all reaching out like, Hey, can

58:59

we come by for a visit? You know, we got stuff

59:01

for your son and we can't wait to, and

59:03

I would just shun them all. Yeah. I just say

59:05

no, because I was ashamed of our living

59:08

situation. Right . And I was ashamed of what we

59:10

had financially. And I remember

59:12

once I got back to work and as I started getting

59:15

back out talking to people, they all would just gimme

59:17

the gifts that they had collected for months.

59:19

Mm-hmm . <affirmative> , some of the stuff Kai could no longer even fit

59:22

at that point. He had already <laugh> . They were like, has he graduated

59:24

from college at this point? Like, you know, like, what's

59:26

going on? Right. And it was because of

59:28

my own , uh, you know, just

59:30

foolish shame where people who

59:32

want to have relationships with you, they're,

59:35

they're trying to be , uh, the

59:37

answer. They're trying to be a need. They're trying to fill

59:39

needs in you or trying to help you through

59:42

that process. And they don't have judgment. They don't come

59:44

with that space of, oh, I'm gonna judge

59:46

what you are. They'll take your embarrassment,

59:48

your shame and say here. And that's the thing that my mom,

59:51

our mom said to us, she was just like, Anitra

59:53

or Nikki , she's like, Nikki , it's,

59:55

they don't care about that. What they're saying

59:57

is, we wanna share right in

59:59

the joy of this new, you know, this new development

1:00:02

in your life, we wanna, and , and if nothing else, and

1:00:04

she told me this too, sometimes when they see

1:00:06

your circumstance mm-hmm. <affirmative> , they're gonna start

1:00:09

filling in the needs based on

1:00:11

what they see . See based on that . Yep . But if you're not allowing

1:00:13

them to see it, then you

1:00:15

know, there's a , you're not allowing that

1:00:18

space to come to where they can step in. So I'll

1:00:20

just, I'll say this and I'll kick it back to you when

1:00:22

it comes to that versus syndrome. Both

1:00:24

can be good. Mm-hmm . <affirmative> , it's okay.

1:00:27

When you need to protect your independence. It's

1:00:29

okay when you need to show your vulnerability,

1:00:31

but when you view the need to

1:00:33

be needed as pressure

1:00:36

mm-hmm . <affirmative> , then you block your ability to be

1:00:38

a blessing, your ability

1:00:41

to be a blessing to someone else. And

1:00:43

when you shun someone else's desire

1:00:45

to be your solution or support

1:00:47

to your need, you

1:00:49

block your own blessing. Yeah. Yeah . From coming

1:00:52

in. And so get rid of the

1:00:54

vers syndrome and know that both can be

1:00:56

good and find that harmony, you know, for

1:00:58

that. So I'll kick it back to you, brother . So , so is it

1:01:00

a get rid of the vers or balance the

1:01:03

vers syndrome balance? That's probably better. Yeah . Balance

1:01:05

it.